Transcript for Episode 55 – Conceptual Artist, Reinhold Zisser, Notgalerie + LLLLLL (Vienna, Austria)

Published February 25, 2020

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/conceptual-artist-reinhold-zisser-notgalerie-llllll-vienna-austria/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly for me.

Reinhold Zisser 0:14
My name is Reinhold Zisser. And yeah, that’s lovely. Where are you from? I’m from Vienna. So I was born in Vienna and I kind of since then I live and work in Vienna and Lower Austria. One of the common things that I always wonder about creative people in general, is sort of how they come to be. So like, so were your parents in the creative industries? We did? Did you have a teacher? Some girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever? I don’t know. Yeah. So like, something that somehow led you to this lifestyle? Well, when I was like, like younger, like a teenager or a kid, I kind of had the feeling that I’m not prominent, somehow artistic family. Because my parents were just like doing some regular jobs. You know, like, my father was working for the city. As for, for some architectural security things, and my mother was just a housewife. So she took care of me and my brother, not just

Matthew Dols 1:13
out of a housewife.

Reinhold Zisser 1:15
Sorry, mom, my mother was a housewife, and then took care of me and my brother, which was like,

Matthew Dols 1:19
that’s a tough job.

Reinhold Zisser 1:20
Yeah, probably one of the more tougher jobs you can have.

Matthew Dols 1:23
Especially two boys. Yeah, that

Reinhold Zisser 1:26
no one kind of when I was like, 1617, I started like, just like painting. So high school, so school or on free time at home, I don’t know just on my free time at home and also kind of changed a lot of school, I did a lot of school changes. And so with 18 kind of itis decided just to quit school and be an artist. Now here, here, I don’t know the schooling system here. So 18 you’re finished with your mandatory school legal mailings. Normally, you could be I mean, I went to this point to some technical school, which also takes one year longer. And also I I failed even two times in like finishing my grades. So kind of I was like really kind of a little bit lost in school system already. and was like, painting most nights like oil painting on canvas. And so I decided kind of to that it’s a good idea to kind of quit school and be be an artist. And so I made like, my first exhibition with all paintings in the age of 18, in a shopping center, in the outskirts of the city. So this was like the start of my artistic career artistic approaches, and just a little bit later, I realized that like my micro me, Mike, my grandfather was a painter. Okay. But he kind of he did not really know he wasn’t living as an artist, he kind of then because of family, and then some security safety reasons. He kind of he was teacher then saved. Oh, yeah. Okay, so just income to be able to be able to support the family because of that, yeah. And awesome. From the other family side, my grandmother, she was a photographer. This was somehow very interesting for me when I was a little bit older. And like, began kind of, to, to realize what what art can be to realize that her works, which never were, like presented, or like talked to me and in in the family as artistic work, that her work was like, way more compact and way more developed than this other than the moral, like not so you know, like this, this painting of my grandfather who like he painted something like this, and then he painted some, some still lives. And then he painted portraits. And so this was very interesting for me. And so then I kind of realized that, like, there have been some more artists in my family, but not like in this first range of my parents. So I kind of, yeah, it’s oftentimes like, one parent, one generation is very creative. And the next generation sort of goes the opposite way. He said, your grandparents were creative than your parents when sort of the opposite way. And then you went and then you went the opposite way of your parents and you went down the creative path. Okay. So did you end up then going to some schooling and in any way? Yeah, this was I mean, I was like, I mean, when I was 18, we’re talking like about 1999. That’s like 20 years ago. So it was kind of kind of this kind of upcoming time of internet and like so on, but I’m trying to do quick math in my head, trying to figure out how old you are used to 37 year 39. Almost Yes. And I was like, so super enthusiastic about like, what art can do and what like you can do just by doing it. So I really thought like, you’re not Both to study art just supposed to to paint, it’s like you like it, it will totally, totally made no sense back then for me to study art, okay? So and also was like really at choosiest think about what I can achieve by just doing my paintings. So I really did this for the first five or six years. And then the longer I did it, as you can imagine, the more I realized that the situation of being just some young guy doing oil paintings is not like something that that makes you go very far. Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, it’s, there’s so many variables on that. So yeah, in my case, it was like living in this kind of outskirts of Vienna. This part, which like, just all it was like a really some somehow tough with all those people who kind of to be surrounded those with people who like don’t really have any clue about, about what art can be. Those people are everywhere. They’re not just in the outskirts of cities. Yeah, true. Yeah. And so I was not. So I had like, No, I mean, like I was, I was like, just kind of living art at night, you were in a bit of a cultural vacuum. Like, you’d have like a community, you didn’t have a tribe, you didn’t have like people to support you. And like, and you’re probably having difficulty, I would imagine, like you’re not selling, you know, as much as you would like, basically. Yeah, this is like very, very nicely said that. Yeah, I kind of, exactly. So that’s kind of then then I started to realize that I have to study art, probably if I just if I want to continue in, in somehow in in doing this, I have to kind of save myself and kind of go to the university? Well, that’s interesting, I was expecting you to say like, No, I’m gonna fight the man, I’ll figure out how to do it as an outsider. But you, you came to a realization on your own, that there was some necessity for some formal training? Yeah, I mean, it’s two things done at the Academy, it was not at all about some formal training, when it comes to handcraft to something real, it really was just about being together with people who also just do what you do. So this was like, Yes, you said, like this tribe, or other people or some other people who like just interested in culture. And an artist was like, the most changing thing when I started to study art. I found here in Europe, that the teacher student relationship, and then even the the relationship of the people who go to school together is this incredibly tight knit community that becomes once they all graduate and everything they’d become like this. tribe, I guess, it’s sort of like and like they, they often show at the same galleries, or you have the similar collectors like they are and then their works are not necessarily the same, but like, they have a similar sense of sensibility to them. And there’s, and then there’s this direct relationship to whoever their daily air overseer, their mentor was and and that’s that bond, and that connection is a very important element in the arts industry here. Yeah, I mean, some somehow you You’re right. I mean, some can be like a thing that can be like, different levels on which this this kind of bounding to some kind of scene happens. It can be like right away from the University from also from like, just from the professor and the classes you’re studying, which I hear about a lot we keep in mind, you have to keep my I come from the United States, like, I didn’t bond with that many people. When I was in school, my teachers and students, we didn’t bond that that much. We didn’t have like a mentor student relationship, like our schooling actually, or my schooling actually had. The teachers didn’t want you to work like that, like they actively were, they do not work like us. We want you to be your own artists, we do not want you to be our apprentices. So like, so the fact that I came to Europe, and I found that this lineage and this sort of sense of tribe that sort of built through this process of the academia is a very strong thing here. And I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. I’m just saying it’s a very different thing from from an outsider’s perspective. Yeah, I mean, I think in my case, I mean, I started at the University of Applied Arts. In my case, the queueing, which is attached to Mac Museum, right. You don’t you can’t really say that. It’s like it’s Yeah, it’s like it’s the originally it’s kind of it was built in the at the same time, it was like both open the thing in 1876 or 1867. Something it’s about 150 years old. And but nowadays, Have, it’s not really connected on a term that you kind of have some some. I mean, there are some sometimes there are those two CLE shows which sometimes happen to be shown at MCC. But that’s it. Yeah. Because like, I went to Corcoran School of Art in Washington, DC, and there’s the Corcoran museum upstairs and the school is in the basement. So the direct relationship between them not like that. Yeah, no, no. It used it’s like, it’s the same from from outside from the from the street. It looks like one big building. Exactly. Yeah, that gets completely this complete. Separation, separation. Okay. So even you can’t walk from inside from one building from the muck part to the university part, you have to go to the street, and then you can walk on the main entrance.

Matthew Dols 10:48
Absolutely separate that yes. Okay.

Reinhold Zisser 10:50
The I mean, the, in our class, our community was was was very strong, we had like a really great session of like, of students who kind of work together and kind of spend time together and went to exit, like, did all the all the things together that you can do as an as a student, but from from the point of, like, of the Diploma of like, of the, of the exam, and When, when, when people finished, it kind of got a little bit more loose in our class. Yeah. So this was maybe also one, one point and for me, because since since I said that I really had a long period, like six, seven years of doing art kind of really on my own without any community. And so for me, this was like, the biggest achievement during this time of studying, to kind of to, to be part of a community and to kind of to have people where you don’t have to, to fight for for everything that you do, which just it mean, it was really the point where you could start to develop on some more like complex things, because you don’t have to just declare yourself on the very basic terms of what you do, which I which you have to do when you kind of in this not art, accepting environment, you have to kind of so this was maybe then maintenance, because like, I really began to feel that like one two years after my diploma, I finished in 2013.

Matthew Dols 12:22
Oh, wow. Okay.

Reinhold Zisser 12:23
So like I started in 2005. Yeah. Then studied for seven years and wow, okay. What and what degree did you end with? So mF the equivalent of an MFA a PhD? Yeah, it’s it’s in Austria. It’s called like the Magister? Yeah.

Matthew Dols 12:38
Okay. MFA?

Reinhold Zisser 12:39
MFA? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, I really, like, I started 2006 with like, doing oil paintings. And it really then the first two, three years, I kind of focused on painting in oil, then like, in 2009, which was like, more or less 10 years after I started, like, like, I had my like, started being an artist, kind of, I made the first oil paintings, which actually felt okay for me, because like, I really had 10 years of struggle, just that I was not happy with my paintings at all. And so this was like the point where I realized that just doing paintings, which you like, for yourself, does not mean that you make good art, because as soon as you kind of are happy with your paintings, just the problems began to start because like, in the first 10 years, it just said like this, this quarrel between me and into painting, and a thought like as soon as this problem would be solved, like solved, I mean, you know what I mean? I would like you to elaborate on it, but go on. Yeah, I thought like, then you kind of tend you, then you then you’ve done it. Now that that’s what what then it’s done. It’s done. But then as soon as kind of I was like I thought okay, now, this is this is like a first series of painting, which is like, for me really good. I just began to realize that just the problems just begin to start because people don’t see what you see. And oh yeah, so it was somehow for me like the canvas was the canvas was like some kind of open space that I just could write step in, and walk in. And but I realized for other people, it’s like it is what it is, it’s a closed surface. And so from this was like in 2009, like in the like, in the middle of my studies. And from this point, I began then to work with objects and to begin to work with space because from this kind of, I realize that kind of there is not only you and to painting there is like a space there is like other people there’s like this kind of wonder but there’s also everything the viewer brings to it as well. I mean the you know the you show an image of anything. A man with a certain set of experiences in their life will look at it one very different Even a woman with very different experiences in their life, whatever it is just basically, whenever a viewer looks at a any piece of an art, so it doesn’t matter if it’s an object or an experience, that they’re always bringing their own experiences all and applying it to it as well. So like, it’s hard, it’s a difficult balance. Because when you’re making art, you try to make it as best to express what you want. I’m saying but me, I guess so like what I want. But there is always that balance that you do have to take into consideration how a viewer would experience it or engage with it or anything like that, like you use a hand on cannot be a purist and just say like, this is mine. It’s the perfect expression of my ID, and I don’t care if you understand it, then no for me, like it’s a complex relation. And for me, it was just not possible to, to be like, also felt like as an N, I felt like really naked in front of my pictures. Like the only best ones though. The only also also that the only way to kind of to let the chance be open that people can get into them is to be naked in front of them. Because as soon as you’re not you kind of feel you’re not you kind of then then you even work on separating them from what you’re trying to say. So from sec kind of this, this relation was not part at all of my work for 10 years, and kind of a really stepped on it in a in one moment somehow. And it changed a lot. And I began to work then on this on this relation. And so I began to create objects began to make installation I began to work room specific. And also I began to kind of minimalize because like in my paintings, it was like about, you know, like, the expression of everything. And then it was like, then I just made wooden cubes for two years. And just was painting also just wooden cubes on standing on sometimes on empty chairs. Also, some some people who knew me back then were like, Really? I mean, they were not shocked. This would be like, but they were really surprised on on the shift. Yeah, I mean, from from traditional, more traditional oil paintings to sculptural objects, and minimal sculptural objects is a bit of a dramatic shift. But I mean, yeah, but that’s what we do when we’re young. And I don’t mean young in necessarily age, but young, in our experiences as being creative. Like we, we try different things like I’ve fluctuated between different mediums and different things. But in the end, like, the one thing that I keep noticing is like there will always be or you hope there is, I should say, you hope there’s a common thread through your work some some consistent concept or idea or in something you’re investigating, or whatever it is. So no matter what medium you’re working in, or how you’re expressing your idea that there is something that if a, like a curator or a collector or an institution were to look at your entire career, they could say like, Oh, well, this was a growth from this previous one to this one because of this, even if it changes visually, very dramatically, of course, I mean, in my case, I think they’ve been really some oral tests there still are some visually some very big steps or some really big differences which are like really, which make it like hard to kind of to see this kind of development on trust on some in some few moments. And it’s not like that you see okay, he start I started like painting realistic faces and now then began to be a little bit more abstract and so it’s like a really made some some super dramatic jumps some SEO which are like, where you really think okay, now we kind of he became someone else. But then the thing is that you need to know that the story behind it.

Matthew Dols 19:06
But there’s, there’s,

Reinhold Zisser 19:07
there’s always a great story behind because like, I can remember like some some shifts that I’ve made, I can remember even like reading about other artists and stuff where like, they’re working one way and then suddenly, like a year or two later, they can do a dramatic shift in their work. And you find out that they like, read some great philosophy or had some dramatic life experience that sort of just shifted everything about them. You know. You finish school in 2009 13 Darn it. almost too bad with numbers like God. Alright. 2013 so you finish so you really have only been out of school for six years,

Matthew Dols 19:46
seven years, seven years. Yes. It’s not that long outside of school. So So now, of course my research on you, I think is nowhere near the expanse of what it is that you actually do or have done. I mean, I know about How many ELLs is l l l l l it’s

Reinhold Zisser 20:03
six l five, right now almost it’s and those like the L, the L ‘s are just like are somehow the abstraction of the signs, which actually are the name of the space. I mean, you just started talking about L, L, L L, six L, or the name of my artist run space here. And actually, the name of the space is like five white and one black square. This is actually the name and you can also write this in ASCII. So you can can write it in a text, you can you don’t have to kind of insert a JPEG or a GIF, it’s just you can do it in a written text, you can make those signs those white and black squares, right? And the name comes from because when it’s a very common practice that when artists are open an artist run space in Vienna, that they just often use what’s on the assayed, like, electro gunner or like Schneider, I like synergism. They just use what just use the old signs, which are on the assayed. So there happened to be a bunch of ELLs on your building. Yeah, like no, my building there was kind of just about like, six squares, like light boxes. And there were no letters anymore on them, just the empty light boxes. And like, five we’re working to sixth one wasn’t. So when we kind of put on the switch, we had like five white and one black square on our facade, and I thought like, yeah, that’s kind of looks nice. Okay. Well, that makes so much more sense now. Because like, I, we were emailing and I kept getting these emails from llll. And I’m like, What is this thing is like, get it to have a web address, or as you say, to have an email address, you can’t you don’t have squares, you can’t enter a square on www dot square. So we had kind of, are you sure you can’t hear? I’m sure. Okay. And so we saw those six big L’s somehow look a little bit like the shadow of the squares some. So this is why we have like six l to know, as I say, it makes sense. Yeah, I get it now. I totally understand it now. Okay, so you you run an artist space, you have a studio near that artist space. Currently, we are outside of town in a development that has been like so generous and loud, you and a bunch of other artists to have a an artist studio out here. And you have your nada, nada, notice is not the gallery, which is a church that you have saved and emergency church, which is as a rich, long history here that I had never heard of before coming here. What else do you do? Well, I mean, I think you kind of know, just told like the bitches like 99% of my Alexa, let’s say like, 90% of my work. I mean, I but you’re also practicing artist. Exactly. I mean, the thing is, like, for me, the lll is, like, really an artist run space. So this is like, kind of, in a tradition of like, just like since 30 years in in Vienna, very normal, somehow we have let the moment we have like 40 artists run spaces in Vienna. So like, the artists run spaces, like it’s, it started as a project to kind of continue with this idea of, of artists group and this idea of community, which we talked about, which was very important for me in my in my study time, and which I then realized that after the diploma, that it came that that it got more and more loose, and that you got more and more of this kind of lone wolf, which I knew before because this this is what I did for many years. So this was maybe one of the reasons why I then wanted to do this on an artist run space, to kind of to have this kind of strategy to kind of to stay in touch with with other with colleagues, which is also kind of somehow in in my experience when it comes to making art like those are the people who I like the most to be surrounded by It’s not like I mean like as most artists realize like it’s not that working and talking with gallerists is like such a pleasant time mostly also like talking with with just with people who kind of are not like just with with spectators from who come to an exhibition.

Oh yeah. As much as I love putting on an exhibition and I love all the hugs and pat on the back good jobs and all that. It doesn’t fulfill me in any way. But there’s times when you have the ability to sit with somebody who is creative and can give you constructive feedback and and and Maybe even just like open a door like and I mean, it could be a conceptual door for your art or it could be like a literal door like they show you something you’d never seen. Those are far more rewarding for me than a pat on the back and talking to gallery. I mean, I can say more simply just it was just the strategy to continue this kind of feeling of a community that I had in mind my study time. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the hardest part of leaving school. And this isn’t even just art school. This is like any school is that loss of community. Because a lot of the academia in any program is about as much about what you learn and experience with your peers, as it is what you learn and experience from your teachers. So yeah, any way to try and perpetuated after graduation, I’m all for it. So this project really, somehow still is not part of my art practice. So it’s like, really, it’s an artist run space. Do we have a quick favorite, define an artist run space? It means that it’s like it’s a, an exhibition space where mostly exhibitions are shown. Like it’s not it’s not the studio, it’s like, or it’s also not your flat. It’s just like it’s a summer it, it’s run, it runs as a gallery, but with the big difference that it’s not a commercial project. It’s like you don’t sell you don’t have an income from your shows at all. So like if, if I were to walk into Ll Ll Ll, and say, I love that piece, I want to buy it. Of course, you could think we sold like one work in four years, which was like from my former professor who sold photograph.

Matthew Dols 26:47
I’m so clarifying.

Reinhold Zisser 26:50
The thing is you, but it’s not there, there is no No, no pricing is not the intention of attention, like to have an opportunity to exhibit a new idea or try something out or, you know, prepare, you know, like just test something even kind of thing, just get some feedback publicly on something. Exactly. I mean, and like most artists run spaces, at least those who then exist for more than half a year. Then live on cultural funding, like mainly on state and city funding. Tell me more about this. I’m all about learning about funding here in Europe, because I none of this stuff exists in America. So they are so fascinated by this. So okay, so you’re running an artist space, and you can get money from because I’ve heard stories already. You can get money from city state No, no, wait, no districts, exactly. A city and then federal, potentially, depending on like the three main sources of getting funding, but do you have to be a NGO to get funding? Then she Oh, yes. Somehow me nonprofit NGO, exactly. I mean that the thing is, I don’t know that you said that you have to make a friend, which is like, which is, which is some somehow our NGO, I mean, a friend can can also be like, just like an association. And Association can also be just just for people who like growing flowers and the maker Association for growing flowers, and they can get funding from the district, city and federal, probably not a cultural funding, but but they also can get the funding to things like that most of those fundings from the city and from the, from the state, not all from the state. But some you need to have this foreign, you need to have this NGO, like let’s say NGO, so you can’t apply for it just on as a single person. Right? That means that sort of the question now. stupid question, like what’s the I don’t even know if you know this, but like, what, what’s the range of amount of support that these different cuz I would imagine the districts or smallest amount of support, the city’s more support, and they’ve got federal, most to support? That depends on what you’re running? I mean, like, probably also depends on what districts I would imagine, because some districts probably have more money for culture than others. Well, it’s in I don’t, I can’t, you know, I’m not a specialist on which district has what funding, but I just know it from like, because I’m, I’m running my projects in two districts like this note galleries in the 22nd. District, right, which is where we are now. Exactly, and Ll Ellison, the third district, and from my experience, like I mean, I get like more funding for not gallery but it’s also because it’s a bigger project. And in my experience, like the amount from the from the district and the city is more or less the same. And but the question is, like, how much do they support like, what I mean is like, I’m not saying what, how much money do you get what’s the range, they You can apply for it’s like, I can say, from my space and also from like most colleagues that I know that like you get, like from the, from the district like 500 to 2000 euros a year, which is also like from the city and from the state you, if you will, the things you have, it’s not, you know, not everyone gets the funding, like, Oh, yeah, so it’s kind of, I mean, it’s, it’s more or less that ride to divided on a wide level. So it’s like, it’s, it’s easier to get, like, funding for your artists run space then to get like a scholarship for like your just own artistic? Yes, it is. So easy, they’ll fund an association easier than they would fund a solo artist except trying to fund a project or their own studio or whatever like that. That’s interesting. Okay, so, so basically, they’re encouraging people to work as communities more than encouraging people to work as individuals. I mean, some it’s, it’s, it’s also a question of, because when I apply for funding for a space, the question is, what do I get for it? Like if I get like 10,000 euro yearly funding for my artists from space from the from the state, I can’t buy myself canvases. I can’t buy myself. I can’t pay for a flight for like, four, you know, it’s, it’s like it’s it’s money that I get to realize projects were more or less like other people. Because then I invite artists to make like exhibitions, somehow kind of just surprise you, or get money at all, what he’s like, to me, from my perspective, I love that you get any amount of money. I love that the government is supporting you all in any way. Yeah, I mean, it’s like a lot. We all complain that it’s never enough money. Yeah, I mean, the things like that it’s somehow it’s a it’s also it’s somehow an ending story. Because you kind of UConn that something that something that you can like, like most people do, like, something that helps you when you’re kind of young artists is kind of out of Academy and then but that was going to be my next question is like, basically, how long can you get this funding for? So like, so your artist run space? Like, is there we will only the government will only help you for five years or 10 years? Or is there a limit to that? Or will they literally like keep your help your association for? Well, I don’t, I don’t heard for limited, okay, I think that there is a limit at fabulous I that. Let’s not talk about that anymore, because otherwise somebody is gonna think like, Hey, we should put a limit on that. Yeah, I mean, that some of it, it’s even if you start supporting a project, then it’s kind of also somehow really hard if you stop supporting. Okay, so like basically what sort of once you get the support, you kind of can rely on that you will continue to get that support. Normally, you can say this man, I had experienced that. When we talk about like, before, we was like on this point of like, whenever I talk like that this artist run space isn’t an artistic project. In 2018, I kind of I made the project where I use the space as material for an artistic project, I was invited with the space to show up on a kind of a satellite fare in Vienna, you know, you have to once a year you have to re enter contemporary, which is like the main fare. And since like four or five, six years, you have the parallel Vienna which is like satellite fare. And so I was invited to this to do some how to how to call it project statement soaps, more or less it was sustained in white artists run spaces to take room and and and chill some artists or their own artworks, whatever. And so I thought like, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s this parallel fair, it’s kind of there are like hundreds of rooms, it’s like really somehow, it can be like really annoying, just you know, to be lost in this kind of hundreds of rooms, putting a lot of kind of effort into something that no one takes a look at. So I was like trying to, to kind of to do something which kind of shows this, this whole dependencies of like the spaces and the artists and the institutions kind of you know, this kind of just wanted to work within the system to sort of point out the flaws in the system. And well, so I took those squares which we talked about, like those six squares, those light boxes, which give the space its name and that brought them to the fair and installed those light boxes, which all together was five meter long, and put them on the wall. And then I put some, some bench in front of it. And I hired two artists, I gave people the possibility to let themself the logo, to, to get it to to have the logo. Okay? And if they would do this, I said they will get a solo exhibition in my space. I thought like, okay, no one will do it. I thought like, it’s some some nice idea to kind of, you know, to show

Matthew Dols 35:32
Well, it depends how big did the tattoo have to be? Or you could you can end where it’s gonna have to be like, visible like, on my neck

Reinhold Zisser 35:40
or on my head, like you had to you have the freedom to, to kind of choose like the spot and also the size. I mean, it was like a minimal size. Could I do it in like ultraviolet, so it was only visible under black light? Or did it actually has to be visible? No, actually, it was just with the black ink or get like really just like the black ink. And it’s like a very, like the classic tattoo style. But you could choose the size. And like the spot we said we don’t do face because like to be not like that someone is not like killing you five years after, because he said your I love it. How many people took you up on this? yet? We’re like, 1023 people in six days? Who did this? So the thing was, like, I was like, kind of, Okay, now, like 23 people who have no idea who they are, I have no idea what they do. And they have like 20 free solo spots in the exhibition space. So this became like, it became the year program. As you can imagine, it’s more than a year probably. And so kind of, I was like, Okay, I got funding this yearly funding amount for two years. Okay, now I have to use probably the yearly funding for this project. Okay, let’s do it. So I applied with those people. And then the state of Austria’s gave me the reaction that it’s not possible that artists have to get tattooed to be able to take part in an exhibition funded by the state of Austria. So

Matthew Dols 37:19
I kind of

Reinhold Zisser 37:19
know, so there was no funding in 2019 for my space. So that’s normally you get like the funding each year, but you can do certain things, which Yeah, there is a line where the government does not want his name attached to it anymore.

And then yeah, found it. And yes, you you found that line with it wouldn’t allow but but this was also the moment where I turned my my space into kind of intern, artistic project, because this kind of this became then this is now project in my portfolio is some kind of more concept art, which kind of which is a direction where my work led me in the last years to actually totally see the culmination of all of this. Like, once all the exhibitions are completed, you can easily make a very interesting book out of that, where you then document the tattoo. Maybe you even have great documentation of the tattoos being done. And the space that add at the fair and then the exhibitions themselves. So like, it could be a really interesting, like book

Matthew Dols 38:22
that ends up coming out of that.

Reinhold Zisser 38:25
I mean, the thing is, like most projects you do can end up in interesting books. Well, at least I know some projects that don’t look good and books. Okay. But like the question is then who reads the books? How well I didn’t say it had to be like a big run book. I mean, you can make just 100 of them, you know, like, I mean, it doesn’t have to be a handmade book for all edition of edition of 23 because you have 23 artists Yeah, I mean there’s like the next story was like that the year after I felt like a little bit bad to be like innocent because I’m an artist myself I’m not not I’m not a gallerist you are now yet and so I thought like well, if I’m an artist too Let’s who kind of who comes up with this concept that shows dependencies in the art market and which shows like what artists have to do to kind of to get visible, this was like the idea of this concept. And so I thought like if I come up with with a concept like this, and then I have to take part by myself, did you get a tattoo also, the thing was like then this the this year, like one year after I took part before gallery on the main fair, like on the Vienna contemporary. I set up the same thing again. And I did like a glutton for punishment, and I did like a graphic, like a print and like a classic print of like of a company. bind logo with 24 times like me as a 24 artists so made like 24 times the squares like it’s 10 144 squares. And this is either like a really cool book or it could be like a video you can make it like a nice short film about this, this whole thing I got it. And then I got it tattooed on my back. So I have like, I have 144 squares on my back.

Matthew Dols 40:25
How big are you talking like your whole back?

Reinhold Zisser 40:28
It’s like from it’s like the whole, the width, like from from leveling from from left to right. And it’s like eight lines highs it’s like three, like 18 squares in one line and eight lines high. So kind of I took the responsibility, the consequence. I think in my work, it’s a lot of about consequence that something it’s not like if if the consequence kind of means that it’s kind of justice, horrible aesthetic or even totally, like, you know, not if it’s like, if the consequent is like if it’s if it’s if the consequences that it’s it should be done then then it fits for me to do it. I admire you for this, I’m not a tattoo person. I have no tattoos and I have no desire to be tattooed. But like, I admire your devotion to this and like that you’re you’ve you’re in for a penny in for a pound basically. Like if you’re going to expect other people to do it. You do it yourself. Like it’s it’s an admirable trait. I mean, when it comes to like to some artists statics or meanings to things, because tattoo isn’t like it’s not it’s not a very fresh medium, you know, it’s like almost like to get get yourself to to the mean. It’s like 50 years of the artists get themselves shot. It’s not like something

Matthew Dols 41:50
I love that you just referenced Chris burden.

Reinhold Zisser 41:52
Oh, yeah. Like, this was like when somehow this disc. When it comes to in when I was a student, I was like thinking about this region acting like you know, doing something which which is like as an odd thing for every art student, you realize it’s something everything has been done. And then you start like, okay, but what if, still, if, even if everything has been done, that this does not mean that doing something, again, has no meaning. And for this thing, like Chris Byrne was like a very good instance. Because just because someone has shot himself, it does not mean that being shot does not mean anything. No, you know, I love Chris Burton, I think it’s fabulous. Like, I mean, I went to the San Francisco Art Institute for my master’s degree. So like, he was a big influence on a lot of my teachers and stuff. Like, I’m a huge fan. So it’s a bit like me personally. No. I respect you for doing it. It’s great. I respect Chris Burton, I love his work. It’s too much for me again, I’m, I guess I’m too scared to do things like that. Like, they’d be the consequences, right? Like, I would say, I’m probably the wrong person. Like, I’m always afraid of consequences. Like, that’s one of my biggest fears, like the creating of this podcast, it took me like, almost two years to talk myself out of my fears of the consequence of doing this. Oh my god, I am so scared of making a complete ass out of myself. Like because I have shared and, and I have I’ve given I’ve had conversations during this these recordings that I’ve been, I would probably never have had them in my entire life period. But I certainly would never put them in public and allow everybody to know about these conversations. I’ve had conversations about race and sexism and religion and stuff that like I am mortified. Okay, but, but, but I just you know, what, I just I titled The thing the wise fool. Because I’ve been in in my life, I took up a mantle at one point, in my past, probably maybe more than one point in my path to being very arrogant. And the end of the day, I believe I’m very good at this. I’m, I’m a great teacher, you know, fuck offs, quit telling me how to teach. You know, I, you know, I didn’t want to hear any criticism because I thought my art was, you know, doing doing a very good job and it’s bullshit. I shouldn’t have done it. It ended up hurting not only me, maybe some of my private relationships. It certainly hurt my business and in our industry sort of relationships. And so yeah, I’m utterly afraid of the consequences of my actions because I’m a problem probably goes back to my dad and being a minister. My priest. One of the Yeah, so it probably has something to do with that. I mean, I’m not going to blame my father for this or religion for it, but, but it probably has something to do with that. Like, I mean, yeah, I’m utterly afraid of the ramifications of my actions because I’ve done many things that hurt many people, and I’ve done many things that hurt myself in my life. You know, I mean, I was drug addict for eight years and doing heroin and coke and I did all kinds of stupid shit. Okay. I’ve done like, and I’m sure I’ve heard many people, you know, like, through my own actions and or inactions? You know, so like, see, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m very scared of consequences. So like, the fact that you’re like, working about consequences is sort of, I think, just scares me. Okay. For me, somehow, it’s kind of a mean, also, I, like you talk now about some personal backgrounds, I think also have like, like, every one has, also maybe some somehow, my personal back ground there, I kind of had the experience of being totally stuck in being able to act. Like, think so you had no opportunity to act to do something, they maybe had the opportunity, but there was like, like, it was like more like being stuck in some some sand, you know, in some political tribe of sand. quicksand. Yeah, some that I think, I think it’s always it’s, it’s not, it’s not, it’s a common feeling maybe that people can have with family or people that they’re very close with that you kind of that you can do whatever you want, but your actions just don’t show any response. And so maybe this was also something that made it for me easier to work as an artist, because it’s like a son, I think it’s something which is like very hard in artistic field is that you also you can do a lot of shit, you can do a lot of work, you can do like, drastic actions, but the results or like the, what comes back is very small. But for me, this was like, more than I was used to, because of like, what was because of my personal background, that it was like really no way to kind of to get results in some some way that you want to make changes, you want to achieve something but there was like results were so small that like, the not so great results that you have in in when you do are to kind of I was like, able to work with them. And maybe that’s also why I kind of like consequences, because it shows that that your actions somehow meant something or affected effect something that kind of that your actions kind of really do something. And even and that’s that’s something that that makes me kind of really that’s why kind of working on on a on a term Weber consequence means more than aesthetic and more than kind of being cool you know, like doing this kind of to be like on a scene you know, like to do the things that look good on Instagram and kind of things to kind of just I love more and more my things look good on Instagram, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Matthew Dols 48:25
We all want our things to look good on Instagram.

Reinhold Zisser 48:28
Yeah, kind of probably know what it’s so for me this also this kind of gives me I have the feeling that this gives me some more artistic freedom that kind of that it’s as soon as you don’t rely so much on on this kind of immediate feedback. And when you more rely on kind of on some some some personal layers or what to say see Well okay, what what I’m hearing and what interests me about what you’re saying is that you’re basically talking about sort of like the foundation of the you you work conceptually much like you’re the concept behind your work is the first and most important part of your work. And you don’t necessarily create a product that could be sold in the market the quote air quotes here art market so that you you create experiences you create it motive x x VR experiences more, at least from what you’re talking about this tattoo thing that like this, this is more of an experience of that both people can participate in but they can also watch and sort of feel it so you have some sort of empathy and emotion towards it. I am I’m the I was raised with the more of the American capitalistic sort of thing where it’s about a you know, you make a somewhat of a beautiful object in order to entice people into then talk about a car And it’s very, I find it compelling in many ways and fascinating, but European artists from what the from the people I’ve talked to and engaged with, there seems to be a sense of security in your work that you feel like you can work, you can focus more attention on the concept. Because like, in my background, I, it’s not that I’m a money grubbing person, and like money is not my driving force. But, but in America, it’s selling, I’m creating something that can be sold. Whereas in Europe, it’s very, you all have these great financial infrastructures, governments, boards, corporate supports private patrons, donors, whatever, that make it so that you have the opportunity to focus your attentions more on concept and less on sales, that somehow, of course, very true. Yeah. Because I mean, I mean, also, but there is, like, I also heard from had some talks with, with two guys from Austria, who went to went to LA, to go from everybody goes to LA,

Matthew Dols 51:15
why LA, I

Reinhold Zisser 51:17
did not develop my he like really, really older, they went to LA like times ago. But that’s not that’s not my because I don’t have so many experiences like they had when they left. But for me, they said like kids, like they were so fed up with just being in this state, in this state movement, where as long as you kind of are like the good artists and all that can do your thing and to like, you know, like, Don’t cross the lines of what the government allows for Yes. Then it also that the things then but still you kind of you know, it’s it’s a field where when the longer you enter you kind of you also you realize that the tests, its limitations, were on the grass is always greener on the other side.

Matthew Dols 52:03
Exactly. So I’m sitting here, like envious of your opportunities here in Europe, and I’m sure many European artists are very envious of the marriage and can sort of style of creating works like that, because I’m from the background of creative, beautiful object salad, the money you earn from it, that then helps you fund your next project. Like that’s how it works. But that’s completely backwards here. Here. It’s, you’ve come up with a concept, you find somebody to fund the project, and then there’s no necessity for sales, because basically, it’s already been paid for, by some support that exists in Europe. Yeah, but it’s, the question is, to what point you can run this, I mean, I have no idea to what point you can do it because like, but I just know that it’s like that, the possibilities don’t get more older, you get like it’s okay, it’s more or less kind of, you know, you you start as a student, and even like, you have to be accepted on the university, there are so many people who want to study art, then you kind of then on some certain amount is able to study art. Yeah, it starts funneling down. Basically, I say lots of people start to get it or lots of people want to be artists, only a few get to school, then only a few graduate and only a few actually. So opportunity. This is something which I think is probably the same in Europe and the US, there are like different structures or structures, which you can see here, which one maybe is like, each has its qualities for some certain ways of working. I mean, I think maybe this kind of possibilities of working on concepts and like to get like money for some more, some not so kind of product based works is like, also produces like some kind of art in Europe, that probably is harder to be done in the US. And oh, yeah, the other way so yeah. I mean, that’s, it’s, it’s very interesting to kind of to, to kind of to see how the, sadly, as an outsider as a not I’m not a resident of the EU, or I’m not a resident of any country here. I’m not eligible for any of this funding. No, not unless I partner with some either some person or some association or NGO as the only way I can get any of the funding otherwise I’m not eligible for any of it here but like I think most fundings that I get you could also get well I mean the for the podcast like because, you know from the beginning my wife has always been like Yeah, but how are you gonna make money from this? And I you know, there’s always the I could have gone to advertisers which don’t want to do Cuz nobody likes advertising basically, especially not in the arts. And this is this whole package is gonna be a niche thing anyway, so it’s never gonna be massive and all that. So. So finding funding like it was through grants and mobility grants and travel grants, and all these kinds of things like this is where I’m trying to go with this because I want to, I want to keep it somewhat pure, like I want to, I want it to be what it is, I don’t want to have to sell out, I don’t want to have to, you know, whatever, pander to some sales people kind of thing, which to me, then again, feels very American to do that. So like, I’m trying to find some way to to perpetuate this, like right now, this is all self funded. Like I pay for everything. I bought all the equipment, I pay for all my travel out of my own pocket with the hope and the prayer that in the future, people will like it enough, and that I can find grants that will be able to make it so that I can travel to more places and so on and so on, but not yet. But we’ve only I’ve only been doing this for five months.

Reinhold Zisser 56:01
Six months. Really okay. Yeah. Not very long. Yeah. July 15 was the first one that went live. Okay, Matt started recording before that, but it really on the road. Yeah, I’m trying to set up a system where as they’re busy every two months, I go to a new city. And then I interview 16 people and that 16 people was two months worth of recordings, okay, because I do two a week. And so that’s eight weeks, that’s two months, and then I go out for another two months go to another city. And the hope is the hope of the podcast is over time. And over the sheer volume of it, the experience is learning that if somebody wanted to learn how the art industry, scene market, whatever word you want to use, how it works and how they can work in it, if they go through they can like because they I designed it. So like the first part of the title says sort of what they do. So curator, gallerist, artist, whatever their title is. So like, whatever part of the industry you want to learn about, you can find somebody who said something about okay. And so like, like, late last night, I was hanging out with some Q, space crew, artist space. People that like run an artist space. And they were saying that they went through and they only listened to the gallerists. Okay, like that’s it and they skipped all the artists, they don’t care what the artists have to say. They basically it’s like you, you want to hear what the people above you in the hierarchy are interested in, but you don’t care about the people that are the same as you. Okay? It’s very funny. But anyways, that’s what we’re here for. So you run Okay, so you’ve got Ll Ll Ll, and then you’ve also got not gallery, which is not it’s, it’s it’s written not a gallery, but it’s not it’s not a gallery. Okay, the thing is, like, it’s not the thing it’s a German it’s a German word, which like North German is not not in English nor dislike it, you can translate it as emergency to be need for something like if there is if someone is in North is in a bad situation. So this kind of this this note gallery is like you could translate that as emergency gallery. And our name comes from its origin as North key aka like emergency church, which was like emergency churches were like made in Europe in the between First and Second World Wars. It’s like the the period where it was kind of invented. Because it was a time when people were like poor and like transports were like people had no cars and like, but they needed churches and there was no money to build because a real church and do we really need churches though? Yeah, just like kind of the I heard like one of the I mean, like one interesting one interesting thing is like, I found this abandoned church in 2015 and I squatted it and now it’s my building and the transformed it from this abandoned church. Oh, wait a minute, he squatted it for two years yeah, I love that but there’s also a there’s so there is there some like law because I know about this I’ve heard about some squatters laws and other countries and stuff like that. So if you squat in a place in Austria for two years you then become the owner the things that don’t know exactly but this was something there must be some law like this because I when I found it I kind of went in I felt like wow it’s it’s crazy it’s it’s just an abandoned wouldn’t. Also the architecture is very unusual for Vienna, we don’t have it’s like it’s a very American it’s like this. It’s a very very American style of wooden house building. But we don’t have this in in Europe. At least not now. We I actually I would put it to like, it looks sort of Belgian almost like your carotid jeavons sort of it almost looks like a chalet like a weekend cottage.

Matthew Dols 59:58
Kind of design.

Reinhold Zisser 1:00:00
Yeah, I mean, when I first saw it in 2015, I felt like it could be some submit American youth or Gospel Church, something like this, or it could be from Siberia, and it looks like clapboard churches with is referred to as rural, oftentimes a rural church where they there was no, oftentimes no electricity, no no heating and air conditioning, it was just a clapboard thing and you would open up the windows to create crossbreeds Yeah, I used to go to those as a kid. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so when, when I found it, and when I went in, then I kind of I just tried to find out who is like the, the owner at the moment. And then I found out who this guy is, and it was like, it was like the owner of a Viennese bakery. And so I just called his assistant and then like, he called me back and I was like, yeah, Hello, Mr. Turner? I would, I’m an artist. I just finished like my my studies two years ago, I found this place I would like to do something there. Could we make some kind of some kind of very, very cheap rent? You know, like some kind of, you know, like, Is it prokarium? Can you say this is an English now? precarious means? Paris is a bad situation. No, a, like a like a bird or a Yeah, yeah. But like, I just asked him if I somehow can use it for for some some some time period, maybe for for very, but he was like, just, I would want you not to step in the building. And thanks. So I was like, okay, sorry to tell you I’m already in. And I felt like I don’t have anything to lose. I just said this. And then was

Matthew Dols 1:01:42
like, probably could have been arrested for trespassing. The thing

Reinhold Zisser 1:01:45
was like then, but like, three seconds of silence. And then he said, like, well, do whatever you want. This phone call never happened. So probably there is some law that from the moment that he knows someone is in. And he’s not getting him out by some actions that I after certain time I get some squatters rights. Yeah, exactly. So that’s why he said, but probably this does not happen if he never knows because then you can say he did not know. So why couldn’t I would have done something if I have known right? So this was like my thing. So but this was my situation for two years, kind of it never happened. Somehow. So I squatted to place and I just used it for artistic projects like I did my own exhibition stared and I started inviting other people like other artists to create like stuff there because it was like a very typical place because you don’t often have your own now, was this in downtown Vienna? Or it was like in the same district, which we are now but like more in in some family housing Street, you know, like, yeah, okay, so um, because I was picturing like, if it was in downtown I’m like, that would look really weird there. Okay, so it was already sort of slightly rural slightly outside. Okay. All right. We’ll put pictures on the on the social media and stuff for you. Also, I have no portfolio is now in English was the moment is sent to registered German one, but now we have like English translations. Okay, well, we will put links to all of his different endeavors, all these different things on the podcast website. And so so for me kind of this this building was somehow more like a social sculpture. Kind of because it’s somewhat it’s an object by itself. But then then it kind of works as a ghost gallery space, but it’s like so untypical. So the thing was like then in 2017, in the like, it would be the third year of running the space in this squatted situation say I love you. I’m running my space in this play this thing that I stole from somebody. But then I got the call from from the owner of from his assistant is that again, Mr. sizzle, nice that you blah, blah, blah, get out of it. We going we have all the agreements from the city, we are now allowed to build like the 50 new houses, because of what they bought it, right? Because it was like a 4000 square meter area. So they could like make 60 small apartments, of course, and get your stuff and leave. The thing was like at this point of the like, because normally you put a lot of effort into a project, and no one cares. In this project, we put a lot of effort into it. And also in those two years, a lot of first colleagues joined and found it great and also put a lot of effort into it. And then it was like a really nice scene because it was like it was so unusual. Because it was like not the typical art space that you go in and then it just like you know, you just go there and drink a beer and then just you know, talk about what happened on this day. And then you go to the next space was like, it wasn’t this, it took one one hour to get there. And it was like so strange. And like, when you got there, you stayed in it, it was a destination more than just a part of a round of going into the event. So the thing is, it really worked somehow. And then also because of the way it worked, and the way it kind of, then so the Vienna also has, like we talked about, like fundings from like, from the state fundings from the city from the district. But Vienna also has its own funding system for art and public space. Of course, yeah, just like the Korea the constant conflict around the art in public space. And I just on in this third year, in the beginning, I just, I knew they exist. And the third year somehow, like my squatted place is, I thought, it’s a little bit hard to find because it’s official funding and it’s a squatted place but just just just give them a call, give them a call, you love these sort of odd juxtapositions of things. And so bad things I was just like, saying hi there and then like, I wrote an email, like I wrote an email and 10 minutes later I got a call. Hello here is out in public space Vienna. We followed your project last years and we come to us I was like, okay, and at this point, I had like my 2000 euros from the big car from the state and so I went there and kind of just didn’t they kind of said yeah, we have like, they have like three year topics. And kind of then our our focus for the next three years is on an outskirts and like some like like this kind of no man’s land situations and so kind of they gave him like a short list of what is their focus which was sounded like a short description of my project, right? So that was really lucky on your part. Exactly. So this was like the situation which was like unusual that you do something you put a lot of effort and after two years, you get like rewarded and like they also said yeah, apply and I was like asking for how much Allah apply and they told me like 10 times the amount that I was expecting so it was like really a big amount. And like a week later I got the call from which I was talking the call that we’re going to tear down the church get everything it’s done. So I was like, Okay, this is like now really really really bad situation I was I remember I was like on this day I was like talking with myself I was like then running through the supermarket and like shouting with with the owner like looked like crazy guy was crazy. And so then I came up with the D Okay, like with this funding that they maybe can give me I could not only make an exhibition there I could like take down the whole building and just just take the whole building and runs run you know and I had like from this day when kind of they told me that it will take down the building I had like three months and due to a lot of work and some some crazy luck. I really kind of got a new area like here in incisional they gave me like a 15,000 square meter property and the owner kind of in the end it kind of gave me the church as a present isn’t yet just take it you kind of have to you kind of you save me money

Matthew Dols 1:08:44
you’d have to pay to throw it away But yeah,

Reinhold Zisser 1:08:45
exactly. And then the curl paid for for like the the costs of like because it’s I mean we It was like we did it then all mostly 90% and ourselves like me and some some other artists like what wait so you like literally took it apart piece by piece and then like literally piece by piece put it back together.

Matthew Dols 1:09:07
Like we

Reinhold Zisser 1:09:08
I was picturing you got like a big flatbed truck and like a cross. It’s not at all we did not do the American style. We just did it like we

Matthew Dols 1:09:15
had an American style. It’s like

Reinhold Zisser 1:09:17
but you notice pictures of like kind of the in America houses drive over the highway. Yeah, you don’t see this in in Europe.

Matthew Dols 1:09:25
Okay, I’m like, Yeah, what’s wrong with that?

Reinhold Zisser 1:09:27
I think they were like, Really? I think some some limits on maximum width.

Matthew Dols 1:09:33
Oh, yeah.

Reinhold Zisser 1:09:34
And you’re up there. Yeah, the smaller roads, everything smaller here. So another thing is like we numbered, each single part like each and we really took took it into the smallest parts. You can dismantle it. Can you see this mental note? Okay, dismantle it. So it was like about 10 to 15,000

Matthew Dols 1:09:54
parts. It’s a it’s a building.

Reinhold Zisser 1:09:57
And we did most of the training Filled with data from Mercedes Sprinter, which is like, you know, like

Matthew Dols 1:10:03
a cargo van.

Reinhold Zisser 1:10:04
Yeah, exactly. And just for the main parts, we use the big truck. Yeah. And then it took like nine weeks to, I believe, to kind of to dismantle it, to transport it and to then rebuild it. And so this was in 2017. And now since like two years, like now here in NCH, so this project now is running in the fifth year. And yeah, and I mean, like, overall, like, I think 85 artists were involved in exhibitions this time. And this is like this broad because like really on the, on the edge between like being some exhibition space, or even now because it’s in this outskirts people or the city once wants it to be an institution, because the city of Vienna has this wish, that like the outskirts of this of the city also get like some art institution, but no art institution wants to go out or they also they don’t want to really pay for it. Kind of as soon as I went here, into this session, kind of they really also because in the beginning this term of note gallery, like emergency gallery, the term gallery was just from your job because it was so obvious in the beginning that it’s an completely rotten, abandoned wooden, empty church in the middle of nowhere. That kind of it was but then the more it became, you know, Mike more social image, you know, like, because after, like, in the last few years, so many people heard of it, but never seen it. And also people kind of heard of it to kind of had no idea of who I am and what the diamond artists are like, if you just read yet as like now than denote gallery you think, okay, it’s a gallery. It sits here on the end, and probably some kind of institution, I have to admit, I didn’t understand it. Until I came out to it. Like once I once I like got out here and I walked off the subway and I was like, now I get it. But like before, like even seeing pictures and seeing the website and the stuff that you sent me about the history of it. I was like, what, what? But like, literally, like when I walked in and I saw the space, I mean, don’t get me wrong. I love the idea of like reusing churches, you know, abandoned churches and stuff because like, growing up I was in, whereas a Baltimore Maryland, there was this beautiful old church and it got totally derelict and like nobody loved it, it was falling apart. And these acrobats and jugglers and stuff they moved in and they rebuilt it and they they like put in new stained glass that was that had like juggling and acrobatic design stuff in the stained glass they put in new wrought iron gates that had like juggling and acrobatic things in the wrought iron I mean they really rehabilitated this what was basically a last building a certain point into something that is now like an institution it’s really stunning. I mean, I love the idea of redoing it it’s a fascinating but the I mean the hard part is like quite honestly it is pretty far out here it’s literally one stop from the end of the subway line like it’s at the bar there’s like you possibly be but but still it takes like 20 minutes from the subway does mean it’s it wasn’t that far. I mean like as far as time it wasn’t that far it felt far and i mean it’s it’s the only nowhere with its own subway station I will admit it was very convenient I mean it literally like you walk out of the subway station and you can see it it’s right there can’t miss it it’s the only structure out there that like somebody where you would the doors were open the lights were on so it was very obvious to me so it’s a This makes it kind of yet it’s just it’s a crazy place you know when i when i was looking like like at night I talked about this note gallery project and how I found it in about the building. And you know, when I was like looking for I was just looking for a place kind of to save it I was not looking for you know the the most crazy place for for for exhibitions that you can find literally have taken any please. A lot of times when I talk to people they end up saying like oh, you need to put in hard work you need to do this you need to do that. And then oftentimes it ends with like, and you need to be lucky like that a lot of quote unquote success in the arts industry ends up you know, no matter how good you are, no matter how talented you are, no matter how anything you are, there’s always an element of some luck that sort of plays into it and so this happened with you with your with your specifically with the church because we were just talking off mic but so like you had the luck of happening to want to like work with the outskirts of Vienna at the exact same time, that the the government’s And the sponsors and the funders and everything, we’re showing an interest in culture in that same region. Exactly. I mean, it was like, a moment where the outskirts of Vienna became more important. And those are than just a moment where you just find this kind of it was not like that I found it something out of nothing. Like it wasn’t that I just came up with an idea and started it on an empty field. But it was just that you find an empty church, which is random to find in a church also, somehow, literally, that’s a random. So the thing is, like, as I said, like, we had, like, 85 artists being involved there. We had, like, I don’t know how many exhibitions and it’s all just because it was like, on one Sunday, driving with the bus because I wanted to take a walk with my girlfriend, and we were just from the bus seeing what the fuck is this? So that’s like, when you think about like, hard work and planning and and you know, like focusing, this is like, really important, but in the end, you end up somewhere where you have no no clue, at least in my head. Kind of when I look back at the last five years, and you would have asked me anything of this six years ago, I wouldn’t tell you anything of that because it’s it couldn’t I couldn’t expect anything of it. This is some somehow it also when when we start to talk about this kind of this this red line, a red line. I know that the red line in artistic development, the new was deserted the chairman?

Matthew Dols 1:16:40
I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Reinhold Zisser 1:16:42
When you’re when you’re talking about like this, this development of an artist and oh, yeah, the thread that goes through Yes, sir. Yeah, we’re Yeah, so you see the thread like needle and thread like disarm? thing in German, just be say, like, the northern red line. Makes sense. It’s the same Yeah. Right. And so even for, for me, my, in my works, it makes does a talk because my diploma had like the title icon presents, I was like working with all these topics. So somehow there is this kind of threat in my work. But on the other side, it’s like, all those some ingredients that you find or like the, like, like, the real story just comes by, by luck, or just by by, by accident or incident. Yeah, but I mean, some of it, you know, it’s one of the things, it’s, there’s like, their philosophies out there that lend to things like opportunities are often around you, but you have to be willing to hear them or see them. Yeah, so it, it also took an open mind and a creative thought of like probably 1000s of people who have walked by that abandoned church that you saw and just been like, but you looked at it differently and you saw something different you saw a different potential different opportunity. And so sometimes it takes that sort of that shift in perspective of seeing the same thing you’ve seen a million times but seeing it somehow as a different opportunity or a different idea in order to build something that possibly couldn’t have ever been built before. Yeah, and the mean now it’s where I’m really on this this this border this edge of being like like in this situation matters projects became like 90% of my work and but I’m really off on this border between between being an artist or being a curator or being

Matthew Dols 1:18:31
an organizer even an organizer

Reinhold Zisser 1:18:33
exactly as some some some kind of some gallerist or some it’s also this kind of this thing that this was a now the more popular this those projects become over the years it’s like it now happens that also more and more people ask that they want to realize projects there. So it was like in the beginning it was like completely that I had to go out for people and ask like if this idea I have to space can take a look they can I can show you some pictures can tell you about it would you like to participate? Then there was this moment where very some people came up with ideas and in the but like when it was like few people like most of those are some kind of some some weird was some weird shit, you know, like some just just just hobby painters who wanted to show like some iconic paintings and what like, okay, somebody who squats in the church and then takes it and moves it and who does tattoos and stuff and you call it weird shit. It’s got to be really weird. No, I mean, like, had like some when someone is like, really entering you because like, also, they some of those people were like really so sure about like that. They now they come up with the only right idea and they kind of they also they they don’t treat you as some artists or some more or less private person who is from Finding a project but they enter you like some some key or you know, like some rice, what you’re talking about, like the hobby painters that are like, I want to do an exhibition in your space because now your space is popular. And here I paint ducks, you know, like, don’t you want that I was I got like emails like someone was like writers want people to paint docks with like his stock paintings. And I was like, I’m like really trying to be polite, because I know what how much energy you put into everything that you do, or you can like, I see that like someone just because it’s for me, it’s weird, that it’s not like, not not important for him. So I don’t so in off my like, really had no idea how to answer those, those emails. So what’s happened though, so you’re saying that basically at first you had these spaces that you were running and you were sort of begging people to come participate? And now it’s sort of as turned? Yeah, and now basically, you’ve got more people asking to be part of your your exhibition spaces and you’re having to turn them down and you’re so now you actually earn sort of a luxurious position because you can say, it doesn’t fit our program. Somehow I don’t see it as a luxury position because I you have to say no, you have to start to kind of to because normally all energy that I put into something was was was positive you know, I just I when I was thinking about something it was like thinking about something that should be done you know, like you you use you sit and you don’t have anything and all energy you put in all thoughts that you have kind of create something, go find another church and put like start a little like collection of churches. Sure. Like I could make

Matthew Dols 1:21:46
you say like McDonald’s franchise? No, no, I mean, just on the same property like but three churches just

Reinhold Zisser 1:21:52
getting ready to free for like I have I have two plans. I can just like rebuild it. kind of make a franchise out of it. No, you’re taking me all wrong. No, I mean, like literally like because you said you were given 1500 square meters, which is larger than the plot the nature of the crazy thing. Sorry to interrupt you like because of this of because it kind of worked out well. And the city and the C town, which is this kind of city development area station, artsy town, was happy with me like in 2019. They came to me and said, Ronald, it’s working quite well. You can have 700,000 square meters, just use the home site, which will be Seatown. And you can use this for sculptures and installations. So this this year good. So note gallery started this year with the project Queensland north, which is like our land north. Can you say it like this? Like that? sounds right. Yeah, like, like some some Disneyland concept. And a Banksy of you it’s okay. And, yeah, but like it was 700,000 square meters, but not a single euro. Yeah, that’s what was gonna be my next question was like, it was nice to just donate property. But are they giving you any funds to do anything on that property? I mean, like I with this year, I ran the project like with, with funding, which is like, maybe a little bit more than than what we talked about, like the average artist run space funding, but like the average artist run spaces, like 4050 square meters. And this is like was like, Really? It’s that. I think it’s even the it’s the biggest art in public space area in Europe with like,

Matthew Dols 1:23:34
I don’t know. Sure.

Reinhold Zisser 1:23:36
At least it’s the biggest in Austria and maybe you I don’t know, but it’s like it’s just a really big area. And it was like this this year, it was like then really back to basic just like with 15 artists, everyone was working his his es off to kind of to create some, some performances sculptures,

Matthew Dols 1:23:55
saleswoman woman, how many square meters did she say?

Reinhold Zisser 1:23:58
It’s 700,000 square meters? That’s like, remember, when you like, you’ve been standing with me in front of the church, and you’ve seen in the background to city? Yeah. And it’s the whole area from between the church and the city. This is like constant not. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s amazing. Like, I’m laughing. And I’m sort of in shock, because I’m just like, That is amazing. Like, I mean, really, in the grand scheme of things. People don’t do that, you know, corporations, whatever, the owners of properties, developers, whoever it was that gave you this, my people just don’t do that very often. Like, that’s not normal. So it’s great. It’s an amazing opportunity. So it’s a drink because I was going to ask you like, So what’s next? You know, whether you so like, this is next, obviously, but how so? So how do you? Yes, and what’s the next step with that? Well, I mean, The thing is like the next step is because I was also talking about that I was looking for any property when I had to move to church. And then when we because everything was happening so fast in this, like we had three months. So but a few months after arriving here and after the first exhibitions and openings here, I just realized that this place where we got itself is kind of a complete, interesting, crazy place on its own, just this, this hills in the middle of nowhere with a city growing towards them with a subway station in nowhere next to it. And so I kind of realized that just staying on this hill and looking around is just like a quality foreign, a site specific quality, which could work on its own, even without his note gallery. So I kind of had this I began to realize that kind of this displays where I got with my note gallery is kind of now it’s a crazy add on. But it’s not necessarily needs the note gallery to be like a working place for some culture production. When we I’m thinking like, in my mind, I’m thinking to like all my friends that I know work on these kinds of site specific things like I have a friend of mine and that does like artistic skate parks. So like for skateboarding, but they have like an artistic design to them, kind of like these. And I’m like, that would be amazing to put out.

Matthew Dols 1:26:36
Bring bring him here,

Reinhold Zisser 1:26:37
bring me I would gladly I will give you his contact information. Yeah, but, but of course, but the problem that I mean, like don’t, it’s, it’s not a bad world. Okay, it is a bad problem. You could do anything with that space. So the question The problem is, like deciding what to do with that space? Well, I can tell you what I decided to do, well, you already did. The thing is like 2000 22,021 I will dismantle the whole building again. But it’s not for the purpose of being rebuilt immediately. The thing is, I also old people who come during the next year season where we also have our regular art season of not gallery consultant not all people will be able to take parts of note gallery with them. So to be dismantled in the process. And so note gallery will be spread across Europe, in parts, each part numbered each, each part gives you a contract, you will have the website where you can, where you can kind of look up for where each part is and the things so in the end of 2020, like the end of season means like live means awesome, because like since it’s it’s other winter locations, so you don’t have heating

Matthew Dols 1:27:59
right.

Reinhold Zisser 1:28:01
So in the end of next year in September, we will just have this wooden platform that no calories no standing on. But the note gallery itself will be this will be gone. It will be spread across to artists collectors institution across Europe. Well, okay, yeah. So that was we’re gonna be quite so you’re going to dismantle it, and everybody can get a piece and they’re all going to be numbered and you’re going to track it probably on a website and interactive map, I get all that that’s really interesting. are people gonna have to buy it is this the idea so to raise money, the idea is like that in 2021 will pronounce a place in Europe, and everyone who has a piece is willing to try to bring his part to the new place. So we will try if we, if people kind of bring the building to like it’s come some kind of unwanted it’s like a very good classic picture of a social sculpture. On the other hand, it’s kind of it’s the idea of a blockchain you know, it’s kind of this this decentralized, just moving of something, it’s like, you have like the stuff they have like the item in the beginning then it’s like this decentralizing but then it’s like returning and so this is like what will happen with note gallery and that for me, the craziest thing is ch that will still give me the property so like those 700,000 square meters and this platform so I can we will build some love I’m looking for partners to build something new like I’m the head some some talks yet and we’ll have some talks in the next month. Because like third years, like it’s it’s very typical in Austria that like galleries have like their kind of also their department spaces, you know, like, yes, you could, you could Yeah, you could potentially even like partner with a gallery like some commercial gallery somewhere that wants to install some large scale sculpture. I thought it’s like maybe even too big of a space for a gallery because like a gallery has done like their thought it’s like more institutional space. Sure, yeah, business like sure there’s some institution in downtown Vienna that simply doesn’t have the space, the scale the whatever, to be able to install some exhibitions that they want to do that they would probably really love the opportunity to basically create a, you know, full scale installation of some large scale stuff. I mean, if it’s not going to be with an institution, then it also could be just with with cooperation of five other artists run spaces, who just participate things like the the kind of note gallery project will kind of move on and because of this our dismantling and dividing the parts into this, no entity is nowhere because the kind of the will be spread all over. So it will be not existing as a building somehow, which for me to now, kind of focus it’s more on it’s also in its ability to be an artistic sculpture project. Because now I had in the last two years, it’s been there was more than aspect of being really an institutional project. But now it’s like, not calories, like focusing more on it’s like, artistic purpose. But like the the site can be like, really developed as this instinct, this autonomic artistic institutional site. So this is like kind of the, this this growth of this project. You know, we started with this kind of this kind of just squatted abandoned building Yeah, those are the things like no one was in people were like telling me like, not what the fuck are you doing, you studied art, you’re a painter, just because things are not running this well. You don’t have to go into this wooden shit in nowhere, just just stay in the city. And then like three years later, people now started to treat it as some cultural heritage which is also not true in all that kind of this. It’s also always interesting how people kind of try to make up images. But through like working with those images, kind of you can kind of create something where many people can come together and gather in some because like the because the image is so much shifting. And like this kind of it’s sort of going back to like the that the idea is the art instead of the object so it’s like the feeling and the concept of not a gallery is the is the object of the building is not the point it’s the community that’s that supporting it that the surrounds it that is now going to end up literally owning part of it that that’s the intention of it not a building. Yeah, exactly. And somewhat is just like because both is internal one and you see like this kind of this note gallery constant not can continue without note gallery and and note gallery becomes kind of its with like, you know, dividing old parts numbering old part is get this kind of disarray, leakier this this realm or you say relic relic, wary relic where it’s like when you know those those? Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s going to turn into like this archaeological thing, almost like I mean, like, I can see like, like little, little letters and numbers, like written on each piece that like will literally be like this jigsaw puzzle that could be it could theoretically at some point, put it back together. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then when it comes to, to, well, events, it’s not about selling, but the idea is like that maybe if you bring back your part, you know, if you like you take now one part. And when you bring it back, you become like 20% owner of it. or something, that this is like kind of the idea that people who participate, kind of we have been 20% a bit high for a single piece of wood though. 20% ownership is a bit much if you bring back one piece of wood. I mean, because you said it’s like 9000 ounces, you become like 20%, owner of the one piece of metal. I’m like 20% otherwise, we’re dealing for one piece of wood. That’d be like 800,000% by the time you’re done. Not only you become somehow partly owner of what you took care of. Okay, so

Matthew Dols 1:34:34
all right. Well, thank you very much for your time. Thanks a lot for listening to. It’s been fascinating. I’ve loved it. I’m very excited for ever this this is way bigger than like when I invited you. I knew llll and I knew like a little bit about like, Oh, you Okay, you ran a gallery but like I had no idea what you were. You’re This

Reinhold Zisser 1:35:02
Empire you’re building you This is crazy. Like, I mean, it’s great. It’s exciting. It’s, it means to meet to me. What you’re doing is sort of like my dream. Like, I mean, you’re doing something that’s going to that theoretically, if you if you do it, right, could like, last for generations, you know, I mean, you’re setting up the structure of what could be the, you know, the biggest, sculptural artistic experience by simply sheer volume outdoor experience in all of Europe. That’s a, that’s a pretty bold thing to do. I mean, just kind of dislike a little bit of much how you say valuing, but but I do, but but thanks a lot. And I mean, yes, I think big. what’s what’s interesting now, also now, the last call that I got was like, from the church. And now they get interested again, just like, of course, but it’s like, this kind of, yeah, because that’s an interesting question. Because my, my again, my father’s a minister, so this was the church, de consecrated they, yet they were like, let me clarify what I mean like so when a church when the church is built, a bishop or a cardinal or somebody comes in basic consecrated says it’s a holy structure now, because before that, it’s just a building, even if it’s designed like a church, so then it becomes a holy structure and it’s and if it’s going to be dismantled or used for a different purpose. Again, another Bishop, Cardinal, some high power person, a church has to come and say, it’s no longer a church. Yeah, this happened in 2000. Okay. All right.

Matthew Dols 1:36:51
Thank you very much again.

Reinhold Zisser 1:36:53
Thanks. Thanks.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com