Transcript for Episode 21 – Photographer + Installation Artist, Cyrill Lachauer (Berlin, Germany)

Published October 1, 2019

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-photographer-and-installation-artist-cyrill-lachauer-berlin-germany/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly

Cyrill Lachauer 0:13
for me. Yeah, it’s Cyrill Lachauer. It’s I pronounced that English. It’s cooler. Cooler in Germany.

Matthew Dols 0:23
And your last name louer. Cooler, Lahore. Now you come from a small town in Germany.

Cyrill Lachauer 0:31
Yeah, almost countryside, less than a small town

Matthew Dols 0:34
I’d say. And you moved to Berlin, you said 13 years ago. Exactly. And you now are currently a photographer, filmmaker, publisher, you do lots of different things. You seem to have many hats that you service.

Cyrill Lachauer 0:51
Yeah, it’s like, I mean, if I look back now, it’s a logical evolution of my path. Because I studied film for a very short time. Then I studied anthropology. Then I started to study art in Munich, then I moved to Berlin finished my studies here in Berlin. So there were many different steps. And now I’m trying to put them together somehow,

Matthew Dols 1:19
as we all do, as artists, I mean, that’s, that’s the thing is we, we have various different experiences through life that we try and figure out how to put together into some sense.

Cyrill Lachauer 1:29
Yeah, a lot of artists, but I would not say all of them. I mean, I have friends who always knew they want to become sculptors, for example, then they start studying with 20 in the art school, and they do a sculptures for five years, and they make their degree and now they’re 40. And they’re still sculptures, you know, what I mean? You can be still nowadays are painters. Some of them are still very strict and don’t have those combination. You

Matthew Dols 1:58
don’t fit into that person either. Like I I started as a photographer, actually, I started as a psychology major in college, then I was a Native American Studies major. Oh, that’s a long story on that. And then I went, and then I became a studio art major than a photography major, then a new genre, art major, nice. And then I was a hardcore photographer for decades. And you know, shooting four by five film and all this kind of stuff. And now I’m probably more like a digital photo photographer print that I then paint and deconstruct in various different ways. So sort of more painterly and handmade kind of processes. So I’m, I’m more of the transitional kind of an artist, I think, sort of, sort of rolling with whatever your interests are,

Cyrill Lachauer 2:49
which makes it sometimes even more complicated for the outside world.

Matthew Dols 2:54
Yeah, well, this is something we were talking about before we started the podcast, which is like, let’s just get into it. So like the the art world is very much they like it when they can pigeonhole you into totally, you know, you’re a photographer, great, go to a photo gallery, or a painter go to a painting gallery. I mean, how easy is it for you being in Berlin, being in Germany being German to work as sort of outside the standard construct?

Cyrill Lachauer 3:22
I was living in the states for, like, if I put all the pieces together, I would say for three years in Los Angeles, and my experience, there was three years in Los Angeles. Yeah, more or less? Yeah. Like we were there for one and a half years. And then we went back and forth for another two or two years. And my experience was that there, it’s totally fine that you’re an artist, and you’re at the same time working something else. And you could say it with pride. So I met guys there who would say I’m a photographer, but I’m also doing carpentry jobs, or whatever.

Matthew Dols 4:02
That’s funny. I do carpentry. Yeah,

Cyrill Lachauer 4:04
me too. But in but in Germany, we still have that old fashioned thinking somehow, that as an artist, you have to be an artist like 100%. And you shouldn’t say that you can’t live off your art 400%. That’s interesting.

Matthew Dols 4:25
So there’s this sort of pride almost to the whole thing. If you’re going to devote your life to the arts, yeah, you should not even imply that that doesn’t sustain you. And

Cyrill Lachauer 4:37
that’s almost like a fail. And in the States, and that was very, like healthy for me that experience. It’s not a fail for the people.

Matthew Dols 4:46
Well, it’s a necessity. It’s a necessity. Exactly. I don’t know, am I’m trying to think of all the people I know in the States. I don’t know anybody in the United States out of other than like, you know, the big blue chip artists but like I’m saying I don’t personally Do you know anybody that actually sustains themselves by selling their art? The mean because they do other things, but they teach and they do other kinds of things like this teacher is fine in Germany. Okay, so so that’s an okay, that’s an okay, that’s an out, you can be an artist and a teacher. And that’s

Cyrill Lachauer 5:16
fine. Yeah, but I have like a good example is a friend of mine who is an artist, and he is working like 100% with sound. And then for example, he would get a commercial money job with Sennheiser or whatever kind of brand to do a gig for them like artsy gig. And that’s something he almost can’t tell about in the art world. Because it’s too commercial.

Matthew Dols 5:45
As you know what I mean, I do know what you mean. I mean, I run into the same kind of personal issue of the not wanting to like taint my art by making it too commercial. And when I say my art, I mean my art reputation. By doing some commercial work in the same vein, or style, or whatever, of my own artwork kind of thing. I get it. But it sounds to me, keep in mind, bear in mind here for the listeners, that I literally have only been in Berlin for two hours. So this is brand new to me. Literally zero is the absolute first person I’ve spoken to in this country. Berlin and Germany seem like they’re a bit different about like, a bit more extreme with this, this idea of I think so separation of art versus commercial.

Cyrill Lachauer 6:36
I think I mean, it’s just my opinion, maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how I this whole

Matthew Dols 6:41
is just your opinion, as far as like how I experienced it, I would say yes. Interesting. I think for photographers, it’s a little bit easier. Photographers almost have to do some form of commercial work just to be able to afford all the equipment these days. Like, I mean, just the equipment just to keep up with the technology is so expensive, you can’t rely on your art for that. Okay, so help me out about the art scene here. Versus let’s say even maybe the commercial scene, you are have many different hats, who you work in different things, documentary, film, arts films, publishing books, installation works. You do you seem to sort of float between all these different things vary. It looks effortless. Is it effortless? I mean, like, do you feel the need to do it? Or like, personally, you want to do it? Or do you feel the need to do it because you’re trying to find a way to basically succeed or make a living or whatever word you want to put to it?

Cyrill Lachauer 7:42
I mean, the reason for me to study art was what I said in the beginning was my path that I started to study documentary filmmaking. And it felt completely wrong. I was 2021 or 2021. And everybody started producing immediately, like, big budget stuff. And I thought, I haven’t learned anything, how could I was 20, or 21, already produced a movie for 30,000 without having experienced and learned enough. So I dropped out of the film school, very early, like just not even a year, and started to study anthropology, because I wanted to learn something. And then I had the feeling I’m not a scientist. So where could be? Where could I find the freedom to do what I want to do? To write to film to take pictures, to make installations. And I had the very romantic idea that the art world could be that home. So that was the reason to study art. I was never really interested in the art world in terms of Yeah, the whole gallery business and the artsy cool opening stuff.

Matthew Dols 9:09
So has that romantic idea worked out for you? Is it still working? Or have you been disillusioned by it?

Cyrill Lachauer 9:17
Now, it’s like what we talked about before the podcast very briefly is that as soon as you enter the grace zone, and you’re working in between the fields, let’s say between documentary and art, filmmaking, or experimental film and documentary film, or it gets complicated, because give me

Matthew Dols 9:41
more expand on complicated work because I don’t know what you mean exactly by that.

Cyrill Lachauer 9:48
A gallery wants you to be very wants you to be one product. Because it’s easy, but it’s easier. It’s not easy. It’s easier to promote one product. So it’s totally clear what Patagonia for example is, and what they stand for as a brand. So it’s easy to do the right commercials, the right stuff to promote that brand. And if you’re working in between the fields, or between many different chairs, it’s way more complicated for a gallery to promote you.

Matthew Dols 10:27
Sure. So I mean, it’s just about marketing. And it’s about consistency of story, basically, you know, I mean, not everybody can be a Gerhard Richter kind of thing. Because everybody looks to Gerhard Richter. He’s like, they’re like, oh, but he was a photographer and a painter, and he did all these different mediums, but, but he’s a unicorn. Like, most artists can’t do that. The commercial art market won’t let you do that.

Cyrill Lachauer 10:52
And even if you do, you’ll get kind of bad critiques. Like Alex. So for example, one of my favorite photographers, like with his last book, which I think is totally fine and good. And it’s way more romantic or poetic than the stuff he did before. This is the one of the barn or the the house that he like, no more like romantic portrays of people he met in different cities and places. But it’s not like the outsiders and like this Midwestern heartland style he did before. And a lot of people don’t like it. Because it’s different. And that’s very unfair. Because in the beginning, everybody wants you to be like to change and evolve. But as soon as you do it, you get critiqued for it.

Matthew Dols 11:44
It’s interesting. Yeah, I mean, everybody thinks that artists are people that are pushing boundaries and trying new things, and being inventive and creative and experimental. But then in the commercial art market, if you actually do that, they turn the back on you. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But that mean, that kind of stuff. It’s it’s one of the things like it takes time. Yeah, I think, yeah. Like, I don’t know this exact Alex off work. But I mean, I bet if you give it like 20 years, they’ll suddenly look back and go like, Oh, no, that was fabulous. Actually, it was the leading edge of the next movement, and we just hadn’t realized it yet. A lot of these kinds of experimental things and changes that go on in the art market seem like they simply need time and probably, Yeah, probably. Tell me a little bit more about your background. So we got sort of the rough outline of it. You started in a small town, you did all this. Now, you’ve been here for 13 years, and you’re basically building your reputation in, in Germany only, or in in Berlin only? Or are you getting on the international market? Or you would still say in Germany? Okay, Germany. Yeah, cuz I’m always fascinated, like, where I was in the United States, it was very difficult to get into other markets. Like if I lived in New York, I wouldn’t be able to get into LA, if I lived in LA, I wouldn’t be able to get in New York, like it’s, it’s very difficult to get into markets that are sort of outside your foundation, it is your core. So and but Europe is so much smaller, I keep thinking that of like, oh, it’d be easy for like a German artist to go over to France or London. But it doesn’t seem like that’s true.

Cyrill Lachauer 13:27
It’s true as soon as you enter a certain level, but you have to enter this certain level. And then you expand, what’s that level?

Matthew Dols 13:37
It’s probably a level of very good networking, having a good gallery, which has the power to put you into a show, let’s say in Paris, or Madrid, or London, right. Do you have a gallery representing you? Yeah. In Rome, in Rome? Yes. Okay. How did you get that gallery to represent you? Or did they seek you out? Or did you seek them out? How did it work?

Cyrill Lachauer 14:03
I had a gallery in Berlin for many years, a very good, like a lot of like a triple A hardcore gallery. But I would say like, for German, I would say very good gallery. And I really like the guy a lot. But at one point, he, like my word got too much of a documentary thing for him. And I reacted very emotionally and left the gallery from one second to the other. But we are still good friends. So it’s all good. But yeah, I had to leave. And then I found this guy in Rome. How did that happen? I think he saw a show here in Berlin. Okay.

Matthew Dols 14:48
Yeah, I mean, because one of the questions, you know, I’m a practicing artist, and of course, I teach my professors. So the constant question is, how do you get galleries like so I mean, you can’t approach them. You can’t I would say it’s almost a no go. He does seem like there seems to be this sense of like connections Basically, there needs to be a personal connection. So a person you know, that knows that person

Cyrill Lachauer 15:14
their health, and that’s about Yeah, you need somebody in between. Yeah, a friend or a curator or somebody who recommends you, or something like some link in between, but I would say, at least in Germany, you can’t do it directly. who’s interested in sending your portfolio to a gallery? they dump it immediately? They don’t even look at it.

Matthew Dols 15:34
See, but that’s tradition. It says that that’s the way you’re supposed to do it. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But it’s not the way you’re supposed to do it here, like period like, it just won’t work. It won’t work. Interesting. Okay. Well, that’s good to know. I won’t waste my time putting together a portfolio and my CV. Okay. So it has I mean, this all goes back to the end, this has been something that I’ve been noticing through conversation after conversation that I have with people on the podcast is connections, connections, connections, it’s all about relationships that you build over time with people. I mean, they’re your friends, your compatriots, your peers, your all these people, they’re the ones that get you whatever opportunities seems to come. It’s not putting together a great portfolio and dropping in at a gallery kind of thing. Like it doesn’t work. It’s all about relationships,

Cyrill Lachauer 16:24
I would say so yeah. And how you build up that relate those relationships? That’s another question. You know, at our in Berlin, there are a lot of artists who show up all the time at the opening. So do it like, like, with? Like, how can I put it like, yeah, these social all the time? Oh, yeah, going to every party. For some of them, it really works. And I do it in a very private way. Let’s say, like, I meet with the very specific people for a dinner, or a coffee, or for a studio visit with one person or two persons, like in the intimate setup.

Matthew Dols 17:09
I personally don’t believe that those those big social gatherings those art events, and all that kind of stuff. Those are just see and be seen. It’s basically just like, so that people say, Oh, I saw you there. That’s it. Yeah, might be beyond that. And I’ve never done any great amount of business or anything at those. I mean, I’ve met people who then I did business with later, or we met at the Art opening, and then went to a pub afterwards and did some work there. You know, but like, but those are, the sorts of those events are just social. They’re just networking, they’re just basically can make connections, but let people see you. You see people, but that’s not where the business actually happens. No.

Cyrill Lachauer 17:54
I mean, I’m probably not even the right person to talk about business. Okay, because I’m not doing a lot of business. Why not? Because and that’s maybe another special thing in Germany, I don’t know how it is in different countries and other countries, but in Germany, you have three types of artists, I would say one type is very successful in the art art market. Okay, so commercial market, commercial art market, gallery market, right. In fairs. One type is successful with institutional exhibitions. And one type, the lucky type is successful in both. Okay, other types, but

Matthew Dols 18:38
very rare. Well, there’s the fourth type who just aren’t successful at all? Of course, yeah, there are four types. And I’m not institutional, get that type that and that, that’s tough. I mean, I’ve known I came from a new genre background. And I know many people who do like performance works and installation works and things like this. And they’re very, very competitive and difficult to get funded. Or to find a collector who is capable or willing to purchase or install something, like far more than, let’s say, a painter that does. landscape, those are much easier to sell much easier to do. Me, basically, you’re setting yourself up for a very difficult career to try and get these kinds of opportunities.

Cyrill Lachauer 19:29
It’s more appropriate. It’s more a long term career. Like in the end, it might be even more sustainable if you start with all the institutional stuff. And then by the time you maybe get a little bit more famous, and at one point, maybe you get picked up by a good gallery, and then suddenly you get into the art market. Also with a little side note. How

Matthew Dols 19:52
old are you? 40 Okay,

Cyrill Lachauer 19:53
yeah, but don’t get me wrong. I’m very like, I’m super grateful. I love doing those shows. I mean, it’s a different for me, it’s like, that’s what I always wanted to do. Like a show in a museum compared to a show in a gallery, I would prefer to show in the museum, every artist would prefer go crazy. Even if I don’t earn a lot of money, you know?

Matthew Dols 20:15
Well, and that, okay, I want to get an understanding of this so that if you were to be requested to be having an exhibition, let’s say even just one piece, let’s just say one installation in a museum, they would pay for what and you would pay for what? Usually they would pay for the production costs. Okay, so hard costs, the materials, any sort of manufacturing or anything like that, that has to happen. But you don’t end up getting a salary, let’s say out of that

Cyrill Lachauer 20:43
originally not, but you get in the process, you’re trying to lower the cost classes and put some of the money in your own

Matthew Dols 20:56
finesse the budget, a little bit of fear, but this here, and

Cyrill Lachauer 20:59
they know it. I mean, it’s not a secret, though. I know. So but they, I think, I don’t know if they’re even allowed to pay you salary. I don’t know. But usually they don’t do it

Matthew Dols 21:09
there. Yeah, there are many granting places that specifically say like a you cannot use the grant for a salary kind of thing. Yeah. That’s interesting. So So then how do you how do you keep going? How do you keep working if you You’re, you’re just if you’re just covering costs,

Cyrill Lachauer 21:27
that’s that’s server, then it’s survive survival mode. Somehow it works works out in the end, like, it’s a sum of many different things. Like, I don’t know, if there’s a museum show, then I, of course, you need a concept in the beginning, then you know, okay, it would cost that in that amount of money to be able to do it, then the museum or the institution tells you, okay, you get 15,000 or 20,000, or whatever. And, you know, for the year because I’m producing very slow, long term, long term projects. Okay, at least you need 40 to be able to survive this year and produce and do all the prints and pay editor and pay the color grading or whatever, like, well,

Matthew Dols 22:16
you have you have an editor for your evening retouching or editing, editing. You have an editor that goes through your photos and edit your photo films, films. Okay, Phil. Okay. I was thinking for the photos. I’m like, What? edit? Okay, color editors color. Yeah, I gotta film editors fine.

Cyrill Lachauer 22:35
And then yeah, I would try to get additional funding, I’ll be able to realize the project on top of the money the institution spends for your exhibition, right? So then that’s never enough.

Matthew Dols 22:52
Well, that lends to the question like so do you then seek like sponsorships maybe like corporate sponsorships, or what? You know, I’m new to Europe. I’m still learning all of this stuff. And and everywhere I go, every exhibition, every exhibition, even it’s like a little tiny gallery exhibition, sponsored by yada yada yada, a bank here a municipality of Federal Ministry of whatever, everybody seems to have some form of either in kind like through media that they do, basically will give free advertising, or banks and such the world actually give some money and things like this, like so like, how does that all come together? Yeah, we

Cyrill Lachauer 23:35
have a lot of state funding in Germany. So for my last film, for example, I got money from the institution, and then additional money from the from the media funding, however you call it in English from Berlin. Okay, they have a special slot for experimental film, and then they put some money into experimental films. And then usually I approach private collectors.

Matthew Dols 24:01
Okay, so you’ve you’ve built up a nice base of, of collectors from your previous work that you’ve done over the not enough, but at least some kind of knock on wood, and they actually will then invest basically, and then they get,

Cyrill Lachauer 24:16
let’s say, have a photo serious or film or has an addition of three or five, they would put some money into it and then get the first edition. Okay. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 24:26
I mean, this is the this is some of the kind of like the the ways to haggle. But you know, said like, how do you construct so like, basically, let’s say you had a, an exhibition or a portfolio you wanted to build and you you wanted to build a print like addition of five? Well, then you could say, I’m going to make an addition of seven. And I know two of those will go to the people who funded it and then you’ll have an open of leftover addition of five to be able to then theoretically sell Exactly,

Cyrill Lachauer 24:55
yeah, okay. And I like the relationships which build up During that process, because it’s very like the collector is very involved into the process. How do you find these colliders? It’s nice for them because they have this personnel. They don’t go to her fair and buy something from the fair, but they feel like they’re involved into the whole process of production. So I think it’s a good it’s giving and taking for both sides.

Matthew Dols 25:26
How did you find collectors in the first place? Was it through galleries through through the, you know, it’s one of the things we all look for them. And I’ve got my little fair share of collectors kind of thing that I’d built up over the years. And the way I got them are utterly random. Like, what one collector I know, is this fabulous attorney in the Czech Republic, and she just happened to be my attorney. I hired her as a lawyer. And coincidentally, she’s an art collector. totally random, you know, things like that. So like, mine have been utterly ruined. I had one guy that started collecting my work, because he saw me on Instagram. Nice. Yeah. Utterly random. Yeah. Yeah. But like, what are some avenues that have been successful or, or some that caused problems? Like, did you did anything ever, I’m as interested in people’s successes, as much as like failures or things that maybe hurt your reputation that you learn from,

Cyrill Lachauer 26:30
like the successful part of it, I always had people who helped me. There’s, for example, there’s a grant in Berlin, which I got, like, I think, in 2013, or 14, and the guy who runs it, like it’s a thing of a political party, its existence and existing since the 50s. And it’s their cultural engagement. Wow. And the guy who runs us, the head of this cultural department, is extremely helpful. Man who just loves art, like he really loves it. So the choose for people every year, and then you get funded for a year. But the special thing about it is that it doesn’t stop after a year, he keeps on helping you and connecting you to people or connecting you to a collector

Matthew Dols 27:25
relation. Again,

Cyrill Lachauer 27:27
again, the relationships that the failure part is more what I experienced is if you get pressured too much, by the need of of money, then you get maybe too aggressive or too pushy. And that never works. Hmm. At least for me, it never worked.

Matthew Dols 27:53
Now I get it. I mean,

Cyrill Lachauer 27:54
as soon as they get the feeling that, okay, this artist is really pushy, then it’s already over.

Matthew Dols 28:00
It’s very interesting. Like, because like, I know, a lot of artists, and I’ve even experienced this myself, I’m not gonna sit here and talk for other people. So there have been points in my life where I’m like, Fuck, I really need to sell something like I’d need to sell something. And I would go almost be a campaign in hand, begging somebody to buy something. And they knew it.

Cyrill Lachauer 28:21
Like they come out of that energy. It’s,

Matthew Dols 28:24
yeah, there’s something about like, you have to be. You have to almost not need it. Yeah.

Cyrill Lachauer 28:31
And that’s what, like, collectors, all of them. That’s what all of them say. There’s nothing they hate more than complaining artists. Yeah, so that’s another rule, maybe like not applying directly to a gallery? I would that’s what exist, what I learned is regret or complain. Even if you’re like your bank account, like 5000 miners, don’t complain. Just keep on going. Interesting. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 28:59
I mean, it’s good. It’s good. I

Cyrill Lachauer 29:01
mean, it’s, isn’t it like specially excuse me, especially like, in my age, if you’re 40. And you go to our art party, and there are those 40 year old artists complaining all the time. I mean, it’s a nightmare.

Matthew Dols 29:13
What What do we have to complain about? That’s the point nothing will be what kind of complaints do Do you hear? Oh, yeah, I’m

Cyrill Lachauer 29:22
not getting into that go. Or it’s not working out or still have to work side jobs. And I have those complaints, of course, which is all about my own. Like, I do it. I deal with them here in my studio. But if I go, like I have one friend from Spain, he’s an illustrator. And he’s very radical, like a skateboarder. And he would say get your shit together. And that was very like, I met him through Instagram, not only online friendship, I build up nice and yeah, and and i think he’s like, somehow he’s right. I mean, if it doesn’t work out for While just do something to sell a carpenter job or, but don’t tell me work in a bar mentality. I would tell everybody, but just do it.

Matthew Dols 30:12
Yeah, it’s it’s an interesting balance over though. We, we need those collectors and we need those exhibitions and we need all those things. But the problem to a certain extent is we can’t look MIDI.

Cyrill Lachauer 30:26
Yeah, that’s the point. And there are more and more artists. Yeah. My father is a painter. Really? Yeah. And he’s studied art in whatever the 60s. And like he always says, It’s crazy. How many art schools we have nowadays in Germany? How many universities? How many courses? How many? There are so many? Are there are that’s what what always puts yourself into a good like? relation because you’re just one of them. You know what I mean? I’m if I apply for a grant or for something that there are 300 people applying, and out of those 350 are very good. So if you get it, it’s not about that you’re better than those other 49 people. It’s because luck, or you hit the right text at the right moment, or you knew somebody in the Shuri or you whatever reason, but it’s

Matthew Dols 31:31
somebody in the jury, that’s not good.

Cyrill Lachauer 31:33
That’s Yeah, but it’s not. It’s not about like, always about being a good artist or not being a good artist.

Matthew Dols 31:43
It’s true. It’s absolutely true. I mean, I know some amazing artists, Corey Hickson, I know, you don’t listen to podcasts, I’m just gonna throw his name out there. He’s a phenomenal artist. And he stopped making art because well, just nobody ever bought it. And don’t get me wrong, he ended up having a great career as a as a prepared or for very, very wealthy billionaire and flying all around the world and having great guns. But being a talented artist does not necessarily equate to being a successful or not at all. Not at all. And that’s a very unfortunate thing.

Cyrill Lachauer 32:17
I mean, even here in VBA, like, when you start being a free artist after university, and you apply for the first grant, it’s very difficult to get the first one. And if the first one was a good one, it’s already easier to get the second one. And if the second one was a good one, like it gets easier all the time. And that’s so weird.

Matthew Dols 32:39
Let me see, I’m new here. I’ve got no grants here. And I’m still scared shitless about the whole process. Like, I’m trying to write my grants the the application process of writing eloquently about your idea for a grant or a residency or whatever, some sort of funding for whatever project you have. That to me is outside of my realm of knowledge, like I don’t understand how it because every single granting organization has a different vocabulary and criteria that they want you to use. And there’s no consistency to it whatsoever. And so you literally have to figure out a way to speak in their vocabulary Exactly. Every time. And that is really hard. Because actually, this is one of my pet peeves about the arts. For years and years years, you will apply for XYZ. So you’re apply for this grant, you apply for this exhibition, you’ll apply to this gallery, and you will either get one of two answers, yes or no. Now, if you get Yes, great, you did something right. You don’t know what you did, right? But you did something right. And if the answer’s no, you have no idea what you did wrong. And nobody will tell you what you did wrong, or how to do it better next time. So how are we supposed to get

Cyrill Lachauer 34:02
better? I’m not the right person to make a general comment here. But for me, it was definitely honesty. Like the best grants I got. Were always like hardcore, honest applications. Like not like writing five pages of a weird concept, which is like 50% fake because you’re making up something, right? It was more like an application like a I’m sending you my books. You know what I’m doing? You can watch my films. It’s very obvious what I’m doing. I want to be like, without the money pressure for one year and work on a new project. That’s it. That’s the point of my application.

Matthew Dols 34:49
Holy crap. You actually said I just want to have basically take a year off without having to worry about money. And they gave you that grant. Yes. Oh my god. I want that granting organization. That’s my Dream like I keep looking around at all these residencies that exist throughout Europe and even throughout the world. And they’re all these like little niche things like, Oh, this one’s about ecological This or this one’s about, you know, refugee issues, or women’s issues or whatever, like, I mean, and they all have these little niche things. And I never fit into some length criteria like that. I want a grant, and or a residency that basically just says, tell us what you do. And we will just give you time, space and money to produce it there.

Cyrill Lachauer 35:35
Yeah, but that’s basically what they do. At least in Germany, I would say,

Matthew Dols 35:40
Do I need to move to Germany that has to be Do you have to be a citizen or could just be a resident, resident? resident? Wow. Okay. So I could move here and do they could

Cyrill Lachauer 35:50
move here and get all the money now, but we have very, like very famous state funded residences, for example, they have a very high reputation. And like, it’s official, they just want you to go to Florence or Rome or Los Angeles. They give you the money, and they want you to work there.

Matthew Dols 36:12
I heard a rumor when I was in art school back in the United States 2530 years ago at this point, that in Germany, and I don’t know if it was Berlin only or all of Germany, that at one point, the government would actually subsidize artists living expenses, like their apart rent their rent on their apartment. I think that’s wrong. I always hope that was true.

Cyrill Lachauer 36:41
I think in in Ireland, you don’t have to pay taxes. Right? If you’re an artist,

Matthew Dols 36:46
I have no idea Ireland. Yeah,

Cyrill Lachauer 36:48
I don’t know. Yeah, I think so. And then luxenberg there’s something that you can get like something like we call it in Germany. conda and comment, like a basic salaryman monthly basic for artists. But in Germany? No, that’s a rumor.

Matthew Dols 37:07
That was always my dream was to come here and get subsidized housing. Yeah, so I mean, getting back to the the whole Berlin experience of it all, since I’m new here, you have more experience here. When I’m outside of Berlin, everybody tells me Oh, you should go to Berlin. But you’re in Berlin? Is it really that great?

Cyrill Lachauer 37:31
It’s a very, it’s gonna be a complex answer. Like on a personal level, it was not very great for me in the beginning, because I grew up in the mountains. And I was always very much connected to the mountains or the sea. So I spent, like most of my life between, let’s say, 16 and 27, climbing or surfing. Like, whenever I had free time, I spent the time either in the mountains or close to the sea. So coming to moving to Berlin was for me was very hard in the beginning, because there’s nothing around. I mean, of course, you can go cycling or you walk around the lake and get depressed. But for me, it was like, there’s no adventure. There’s no wildness. There’s nothing around. It’s just this island, in the middle of nowhere. So that was hard for me. But at the same time, it was very powerful. Because I left Munich and Bavaria, and the arts in there, which is very provincial, say provincial like very, yeah, everything. There’s a circling all the time around themselves. And I arrived here and it’s Yeah, it was like, like in terms of art, it was paradise.

Matthew Dols 38:57
Yeah. The sheer volume

Cyrill Lachauer 38:57
of it. Yeah. The volumes. So many people from all over the world. It’s a big city. The rents were like, so cheap here. Yeah. Like still 1314 years ago. Yeah. It was like, you’ve got a studio space for, I don’t know, four euros a square meter. And it was Yeah, it was amazing. The art school. Like, the reason for me to move to go to Berlin was not Berlin. I wanted to study with a specific professor. And he was teaching at a university here in Berlin. So that was the reason I never thought about Berlin, I would have rather moved to Portugal or LA or whatever. So I drove to Berlin applied and he accepted my application and ended up in his class. And that was the reason why I ended up in Berlin, who was the professor Lota Baumgarten conceptual artist, I would say who works also lot with Photo Film and installations. Okay. And that was the reason in the beginning. And yeah, and then now in the last time we lived in LA in between. So I missed some of the evolution here in Berlin. But of course, it’s the same process. Like backpackers. In some rural areas, like, I traveled like 2006, or something, I traveled to Colombia, as a backpacker, it was still super dangerous there. And you feel like I’m just cool backpacker who is discovering new land, but in the end your chest, this asshole who prepares mass tourism, and artists are the same. So we come here in the area where all the lower middle class workers live and read a Turkish communities live. And we love it that the rents are cheap, and we could move around freely and get wasted all the time. And then in the end, we are just like the starting point of gentrification. And a couple of years later, we are not able to afford it anymore. And then the graphic designers and advertising companies and the startup companies move in and yeah, in the end, we are on the same side as the workers and the Turkish community is Yeah, there. Is there any sort of rent control or anything, they are trying to do it, but it’s not really working now.

Matthew Dols 41:25
So your rent literally goes up can potentially go up every single year.

Cyrill Lachauer 41:29
Yeah, I mean, it’s a little bit more difficult with pride, like living spaces, but if you have a, like a, like a workspace, they can basically do whatever they want. Like for some in some parts of kreisberg, they would charge you know, 20 euros per square meter. Wow. So it changed a lot. But at the same time, I love it because the coffee is better. There are even more people from all over the world. It became maybe a little bit like, I hate to complain. I was living in Ireland for a while. And I met an old surfer there and I stood with him for a couple of months. And the surfers are the same. They have their wave. And as soon as more people come, they’re always complaining about the good old times. And he like disco a guy he was 60. And he always said, fuck those guys. I mean, what good old days what was better. I mean, just appreciate it, how it’s now there are young people from Portugal coming, it’s cool. We can like, so I’m not cool. I hate complaining about the change. As good as me. I hate complaining about change in terms of the change. What I understand like the problem is with the rents, of course, if people are not able to afford, like I have, for example, we have an apartment here in the same building where my studio is, I would not be able to find a apartment anymore in quite spare. Right. So of course that’s not good or Okay, or anything. But all the rest of the change. I mean, yeah, I think it’s Yeah,

Matthew Dols 43:11
it’s evolution. That’s evolution. Thinking about some of the other things that you do. Actually, I was fascinated by the fact that you seem to publish art books. Is that Am I understanding that correctly through? you’re flipping the coin?

Cyrill Lachauer 43:26
Yeah, but it’s more restarted as flipping the coin records. Okay. And that’s the main focus. The books are more, it’s still very small.

Matthew Dols 43:37
Okay. Well, I mean, the podcast is primarily about visual arts. So I’m trying I’m simply because my expertise falls under that i the only the amount of music stuff I know is just because I was a roadie for a couple years. So I know how to party with rock stars. But that’s about it. I have no, no no real skill or capability. Like I can’t even keep a tune. Like if I tried to sing. It’s horrible. You don’t want to hear it. The art books though, like getting into the idea of publishing art books, like where did you even serve as gay like? Well, if nobody else is going to publish them, we’ll just publish it ourselves. Like what? What started you down the path of that?

Cyrill Lachauer 44:14
In the beginning, as I said, we started as this little record label, because we were interested in artists who work in the field between music and art. And it’s always the same, it’s dubplates, which is also you know about the plates, it comes from the Caribbean and DJs in the Caribbean would produce dubplates instead of expensive vinyl, because it’s way cheaper, but they like they the sound gets destroyed a little bit every time you play the record. So after 200 times of playing the record, the record sounds completely different and the music by the time vanishes.

Matthew Dols 44:57
Interesting. I mean, it sounds like the old Like x rays kind of thing from Russia? Yeah. So

Cyrill Lachauer 45:04
here like to make it even more like valuable, not, not in a material sense. But you have so many like on your computer, you have probably 45,000 songs a lot

Matthew Dols 45:19
more than.

Cyrill Lachauer 45:22
And unlike with having the stat plate of this artist,

Matthew Dols 45:26
what are these things made out of? What do you what what’s the material that

Cyrill Lachauer 45:30
they get cut into? I don’t know how you call the material. Like it’s not pressed? Like a vinyl,

Matthew Dols 45:38
it’s cut cut. Yeah. All right. That sounds fascinating.

Cyrill Lachauer 45:43
So that was the idea. And then we started and I’m writing a lot. So I thought what to do with my writing. Then I published some of my writings, under this name of flipping the coin, then we started flipping the coin books. And then one of my oldest friends was a documentary filmmaker joined and started flipping the coin films, because a small production company for sa basically sa movies.

Matthew Dols 46:12
Because I have a background with handmade books I used to I had some great teachers in school, and I and my master’s thesis actually was a handmade book. So I’m fascinated by artists books. So that’s why I had sort of an interest of like, why did you get into it? Does it even work? Like, you know, I’ve always been a big advocate of like making a book artist should. One goal in our career is to have like a beautiful coffee table book of our artwork. How do you achieve that? And some people are publishing them themselves. Basically, instead of waiting for the industry to figure it out, or, or find them, they they’re choosing to just do it themselves with all the self publishing and things that are out there these days. So do you actually produce these books? And then basically, just keep them in storage? Until they sell? Are you doing like, public print on demand? What do you How are you doing them?

Cyrill Lachauer 47:07
No, they are printed, like all of them are printed at once. And then basically, we are doing exhibitions as flipping the coin. So yeah, we already did a couple of exhibitions, and then you have a huge table with whatever, 15 turntables and you can listen to all the records, and you can sit down and have a look at the books. And then there’s our screenings of the movies we did. So yeah, it’s more like the idea of being a platform for the people who do work with us. It’s more a platform for them. You know, to

Matthew Dols 47:47
again, relationships.

Cyrill Lachauer 47:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But more for them. With my own art, I can be very strict and egoistic in a positive way. But flipping the coin thing is really something. Okay, I left them this stuff, this guy or this? whoever is doing, so I want to work with them. But not like with the back thought of making money, late relations or money or whatever. Right?

Matthew Dols 48:19
Yeah, I mean, this is an interesting balancing act that I’ve been hearing, a hear this conversation going on more and more from people I’ve been talking to in Europe, which is sort of more art for art’s sake, rather than commercial capitalism kind of idea. I’ve, I’ve had I’ve heard artists even speak badly, like, literally negatively about commercial art, which is not like commercial arts, like graphic design or anything like that, but like commercial art, like paintings that are sold, as is a bad thing. How is that a bad thing? I mean, I come from, I guess, I guess, I guess is my background and like is seeping through on this is my thing. I come from a capitalist society in the United States. Whereas really, like we define success by how much you sell now, whether that’s quantity or whether that’s a value, money value, whatever but, but selling is the the barometer for success. But that’s not true here.

Cyrill Lachauer 49:22
It might No, it’s also true here. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it just depends on which circle you’re moving around. And then there

Matthew Dols 49:32
are commercial artists versus Yeah, yeah, kind of people. Yeah.

Cyrill Lachauer 49:37
Are there a radical young artists who just work like in like, together, want to get rid of this whole ego and this bullshit master who is working on my own like this genius idea which is totally overcome, and they just want to work together and produce together and be a collective and There is super, very, I think very interesting and progressive new ideas here in Berlin.

Matthew Dols 50:08
And that’s something that I just recently heard about for sort of the first time ish is the idea of collectives. Yeah. Working in in artists collective. Yeah. Give me a little bit of understanding what like so here in Berlin, what is that mean? Is it like a, basically a group of like minded artists that have come together? And then are they working literally collaboratively? Or are they still doing their own individual artwork, but then exhibiting it under the sort of the umbrella of a collectible, like

Cyrill Lachauer 50:37
how orders are existing both forms, there are a lot of collectives and they have the collective, but also their solo career. And there are radical collectives who really just exist as collectives. It’s both, I’m working alone, because I like working alone. But I totally understand the idea of and collective because it’s more, maybe it’s suits our times better. Because fighting for our own, like being on our own. Like being that single person out there. It’s, it’s not how reality is anymore, everything is connected. It’s like, all the fields are getting connected between art and fashion, and theater and computer design, or whatever it is. So the world is not like in the 60s or 70s anymore. So maybe it’s the time for for single Heroes is over. Might be so I have a I don’t know if I get it right. But I get the idea.

Matthew Dols 51:54
Fair enough. But that leads to a very interesting sort of topic that I keep asking people about the internet, social media, websites, etc, etc. Do you use them? Do you find them beneficial? Do you find them? tedious and a difficult waste of time? Like what how do you What’s your engagement? And what’s your sort of feedback from utilizing these things?

Cyrill Lachauer 52:21
Again, the answer is complex. Because I mean, for some of my friends being on Instagram, for example, it’s super interesting, because they have followed the God of the people they like they’re interested in for them. It’s a huge input. They love the weird stuff, which is going on. They’re like stuff, you wouldn’t even see if there would be no Instagram, like hardcore stuff, like fucked up stuff, like weird stuff, funny stuff. And they’re totally into that. And they using Instagram, almost as a source of inspiration for them. Okay, then I would say it’s totally fine. And it’s not fine. It’s super good. But for me, it was a huge distraction. I was an Instagram for six months. And I hated it. I really hated it. Because I was checking it.

Matthew Dols 53:18
No. Heavy spoke any other social media, Justin? Yeah. Okay.

Cyrill Lachauer 53:23
And I realized that I was checking Instagram my account, like 10 times a day. So I couldn’t stand it because I was psychologically too weak. So I dropped out, and I’m very happy. It’s just a very personal thing. I’m not against Instagram or anything, but I was not able to handle it. So I’m only using emails. And I have a website, which is very basic.

Matthew Dols 53:50
Look through your website. Super minimal. I mean, not even an artist statement. No CV. No, nothing. Just images in your email. Yeah, that’s it. Yeah, okay. Well, it’s just an interesting thing. Because I mean, there are certain people are saying, like, that’s the future of the arts, you know, they’re going towards the social media and the website and the interconnectedness and other people are still like saying, like, now, it just doesn’t work for me. And I don’t believe there’s a right answer. It’s just hearing different inputs and different ways of navigating that is

Cyrill Lachauer 54:22
interesting. The thing is, a lot of people think about how the art world could survive or evolve. Because of course, it’s right now it has reached a rotten, rotten place,

Matthew Dols 54:35
hasn’t it? Yeah, I would say so. Right? I mean, it’s, I play devil’s advocate, God. Yeah.

Cyrill Lachauer 54:41
No, I mean, yeah. So rare. Is the art world going? It’s a huge question. But I started liking the last one or two years, I stopped thinking about it because I whatever happens out there, I would still do what I’m doing.

Matthew Dols 54:58
Some people were that self confidence. Some people are no, no,

Cyrill Lachauer 55:01
it’s not about self confidence, because I just love what I do.

Matthew Dols 55:06
I produce, I mean, I was living in the United Arab Emirates, and I was working for six years on work that I literally could not show to anybody under the threat of being thrown in prison, and deported and lose my job. So, so I’m all about the feeling the personal need to produce, regardless of being able to exhibit or sell or any of these kinds of things, because I worked, I’ve worked for, you know, dozens of years with literally no intended outcome or intended result other than to have made that thing. And that’s it, like, that’s all I want to do. I mean, if I would love it, my perfect world, I would be able to barter my mortgage for art, like I could pay off my rent or whatever, and then my electricity by just giving art in trade for these things. That would be a perfect world. For me, that would be fabulous. Yeah, it’ll never happen. All right. So let’s wrap this up a little bit. Let’s finish it. I think you’ve done you’ve already given some great little tidbits of stuff, I’m not gonna ask you one of my one question of like, advice or anything, because I think you’ve already given some really good insights. So really, my final question, is that question about trying to get a piece in the Museum of Modern Art in New York. So the question is, basically, over the course of this podcast, I’m trying to learn enough about the international art market and the art scene in the art, whatever word you want to put to it, to understand it well enough that I can navigate through all of the whatever, and get a piece of my artwork on exhibition in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. Whatever advice you’re about to give, I will actually do it. And then I will keep everybody updated on the podcast of all the, of all of the experiences. So if you say, right to a curator, I will keep everybody up to date. Like I wrote to this curator, it’s been three weeks, they haven’t responded like I will be very open and transparent about the entire process of all of the advice that I get. So whatever you tell me, I’m going to do it.

Cyrill Lachauer 57:26
I would put it on a drone and fly it in

Matthew Dols 57:29
our home. Probably illegal, but probably illegal. Okay. I’m not going to do illegal things. Somebody else already told me that I should just go in with a hammer and nail and just like just like, throw it up on the wall and run out. Okay, legally. Yeah, sorry. I gotta be legal to be legal or not, not publicly saying I’m going to do something illegal in advance. Legally, legally, legally. No, I mean, navigating the world, you know, you know, people given advice like curators read certain residencies like there, there are ways to work within the system, that I’m trying to understand how the system works. Now, you know, because you and I are of a certain age, I’m 46. So we’re of a certain age that we were taught certain ways about the art world. And the reality is that the contemporary art world is completely different than it was when we were young. And so it’s how does it work?

Cyrill Lachauer 58:32
Now, maybe you just have to be hit the nail, at the right time with the right person, you know, like, Ryan McKinley, for example, he published his first book, like, like, he just made his own artists book, send it to some curators, one curator loved it. And a year later, he had this hardcore career. You know, I don’t know, everything else, like all the other advisors I could give are all long term advisors.

Matthew Dols 59:07
I do not expect this to be a fast result. I mean, because even even if I were able to get to, let’s say, a curator at MoMA, mobile probably has their schedule already booked out three to five years in advance. So even if I were to be able to literally like get up contracted signs, and yes, they will exhibit it, and probably wouldn’t even even be installed for three to five years. Anyways.

Cyrill Lachauer 59:33
So in the long term process, it’s making good shows, institutional shows, okay, well, that’s

Matthew Dols 59:41
an interesting idea. So you so you think, because I’ve had this discussion with other people as well, you think fewer higher quality show, I’m going to institutional idea is more important to build a career than a large amount have smaller shows.

Cyrill Lachauer 1:00:02
I’m crap. Definitely. I don’t have a lot of shows. But every once in a while I have a good show. Not good show. I’m not talking about my own. That’s fine. And good in terms of like the place where it happens, right or

Matthew Dols 1:00:18
the curator. Yeah, whatever they

Cyrill Lachauer 1:00:20
charge me kind of thing. So I think in the like looking back now, it definitely helps more. Like because of here in Berlin, you can can have like, shows and project rooms and stuff all the time. And for some people, that’s fine. But for me, I as I said before, I’m working slow and I would lose my energy.

Matthew Dols 1:00:41
That is, I love that advice. I think that’s great advice. That’s perfect. Good. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with me. Thank you a lot for being here in the studio.