Transcript for Episode 174 – Sound Artist, Per Platou (Norway)

Recorded April 20, 2021
Published May 20, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/sound-artist-per-platou-norway/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly for

Per Platou 0:13
me, that’s in the pronunciation it would be Per Platou with this kind of you go a bit off on the last syllable pair was the first pair. Yeah, that’s like Pierre in French, but it’s pair like Peter, actually. And then platou, which sounds and looks French. And it actually stems from it’s my mother’s family name and comes from German, small town where I’ve never been called plot of plot off. But it’s plot two. I say normally, like plot two.

Matthew Dols 0:48
All sounds great to me. Alright, so the first thing I always wonder about people is sort of how they got made. So they your your childhood, were, how did you become creative? So were your parents creative? Some great teachers, like what was the thing that led you down that path?

Per Platou 1:06
I think it was, mainly I was left to myself a lot. I had two younger siblings, and my parents were both working my father as a kind of a trade magazine publisher and my mom as a teaching teacher. At the American school, I’ll title slow, you know, happy childhood kind of thing with with a dog, some kind of vicinity to nature. So I was doing all kinds of sports, play piano played all kinds of flutes, every and I started playing in the marching band and at school, so I played clarinet, saxophone, bass drum or whatever you call it in the marching band. That was my creative and I started making magazine. Yeah, fantasies, I guess it was called. I was too young to know what it was called, but was kind of publications somehow writing about anything very stupid, of course, and I had friends that were very good artists. So they were drawing and making kind of movies with eight millimeter, super eight kind of thing. So I grew up in like, 70s in Oslo, Norway, very safe, very solid. Norway was kind of a social democracy, which, with today’s glasses on it would be like it almost like communism. I mean, we had one TV channel. It started at I guess, we didn’t even have a TV when I was a kid. But I think TV that back then started at six o’clock with children’s TV, and then it kind of stopped at 11. And radio started not stopped one, channel two, and they stopped at midnight, playing the national anthem, you know, so that was sounds a bit like Albania or North Korea. I didn’t know that back then. So I was happy. I was good at school. This kind of kid that was Brighton, I guess, a bit to kind of almost showing off like playing piano at the school at the end of the year kind of, you know, party and all that. I was the head of the student council and my granddad was a kind of commercial successful guy. So I went to kind of trade school for secondary or what do you call that? From 16 to 18. High School?

Matthew Dols 3:24
Yeah, high school in the United States. Yeah.

Per Platou 3:27
But I hated it from day one. I when I started there, I really, really hated it, because that was all the real prep boys. And they were so I hate the everyone there. I was still doing well at school, but I hated it sincerely. So I started hanging out with punks from other schools. This was around 19, early 80s you know, so obviously punk was going on I was. So that was when I kind of ventured out of the ordinary, so to say and started to go my own way. And I don’t know how that creativeness It was probably more like a producer or some someone who made things happen and started working on a radio, started organizing concerts. Because it was a dry periods. I mean, this area of where everyone made the fanzine or started the band or made movies or it was the ethos of the time and I was a little bit too young to be a real punk, or at least I felt so I didn’t have any no more hope or didn’t color my hair like bright red or black. And my parents still they they always supported me and they still do in a certain way. So but they kind of shake their hands and Well, that’s all fine and good. But when are you going to make some money and nice stuff that’s

Matthew Dols 4:50
still now at the at your age, they’re still giving you that grief.

Per Platou 4:54
No, they stopped because they have proven in a certain way that I could make make a living of what I’m actually doing. Somehow they they give up that and now they’re kind of they’re still shake their heads. But that’s because of they don’t, they don’t manage to listen to my audio works or see my stage works or they don’t really get it, but they enjoy it. So we’re kind of a kind of happy family, I guess. So it’s all that’s the most important things. I always kind of searched for the kind of fringes and grew up with that. And then started, after radio started, the magazine then started kind of hub for the kind of cafe, kind of tiny, tiny book cafe record store with a couple of magazines, some artists studios, and we were hanging out there all the time, and friends came along, and then you know, things started happening. So it was kind of a network. This was while I was studying, I didn’t care so much about the studies, but I did manage, actually, I passed my exams, it was kind of everything was happening at once. And I didn’t consider myself an artist at the time. So that came kind of later, because I saw from all the other so called artists static, they just push the record button on their audio equipment or just, you know, exhibited, like, they’re, well, not the shit literally at that time. But But you know, they could make a blank drawing, you know, with a just kind of, yeah, what shall I say, Ratko kind of style, or they would just kind of abstract

Matthew Dols 6:35
we can go with abstract,

Per Platou 6:37
abstract and very kind of performative art in a certain way. So then at some point, I did it for fun, I applied to the artist union, then they actually rejected me, because I didn’t have an education and all that. And then it that set me on fire. So then I wrote this kind of, almost like in the harassment letter, and I told them how, where they could stick their heads, you know, there where the

Matthew Dols 7:03
sun don’t shine.

Per Platou 7:05
And then actually, like a week later, I received a phone call from one member of the board in that young artists Association. And they said, Oh, they had made the mistake. And I was certainly most welcome there. And they even asked if I wanted to be a member of the board. So that kind of made me in a certain way. Because I what I had submitted was a cassette recording of worked for my dad’s office at night, I was cleaning up, you know, all the office equipment and stuff that was going to trash. What do you call it? This machine that crunches? trash? trash compactor? trash compactor? Exactly. So I made this little cassette piece, or a kind of cassette with like, eight different kind of pieces on and that was like, eight office chairs, brands, so and so time, you know, two o’clock AM. And then the other one was to Siemens computers, so and so h t 252. So I made like eight little pieces, and that’s what I submitted. And no one got that. At that time, it was probably around early, well, early 90s. But then, I mean, obviously, sound art and all that stuff came later. So I guess I was a little bit ahead of my time, but I was almost doing it as a kind of provocation or as a kind of joke, to prove that, you know, to prove use of voice that everyone’s an artist, all that stuff. Well, I

Matthew Dols 8:37
often wonder, actually about the idea of like, when we’re making arts, like when I’m making my work, I often think like, Am I ahead of the curve? Or am I behind the curve? Yeah, right. And you’d never know until like, decades later, even if you were even close to the curve.

Per Platou 8:55
Well, I have learned already, that’s probably my own big ego. But you know, that I kind of think I’m ahead of the curve, but it’s still kind of, it’s a kind of, almost like sad situation, because I’ve seen it time after time. And this is, again, my big ego speaking, but you know, you see it coming like 10 years later, but while you’re actually doing what you’re whatever you’re doing, well, they think it’s just kind of a bit off in a certain way. Why don’t just do it like normal? Oh, you were so good at playing piano or you’re so good at this or that and then you do something else. And then a couple of years later, everyone starts using that term, but then they already forgot that you even did it. And then I’m probably onto something new so it’s a kind of a lonely position, but I guess that’s goes for most artists and respective works. Well,

Matthew Dols 9:49
I was gonna say like, so does that to you. Does that mean like that is the role of the artist to sort of be the leader to be the person who comes up with that new thing that everybody else then follows

Per Platou 10:00
did grow up with that idea, my friend who was this brilliant artists in his own way, he went to all art schools and because I asked him, you know, all these very naive, simple questions, what is art? And he said, it’s kind of, well, what’s the word in English? It’s juxtapose not not really juxtaposition, but it’s the kind of a, in which it would be for chevening. Maybe in German, it would be something like, well, you put two, let’s say you put two objects and you move one of them a little bit.

Matthew Dols 10:34
Well, juxtaposition is putting two things. The just thing side by side is juxtaposition.

Per Platou 10:41
Yeah, so it’s a kind of juxtaposition. But it’s not like oppositional, it’s not like they’re contrasting or anything, but maybe a juxtaposition is actually pretty good word. And then I was influenced by the, you know, everyone that was romanticizing the avant garde in a certain way, you know, all the young dead artists and all that who later became legends. So the avant garde certainly had an impact of how I framed my world back then. But But I haven’t really, it’s just like, I have ideas about what I think it’s a good society, how society and people should behave, and curiosities, certainly a big part of it.

Matthew Dols 11:26
Do tell to tell I love these stories. Yes.

Per Platou 11:29
So I’m curious about anything, you know, it could be the guy at the counter in the shop, and actually how his actual work, what it consists of, I’m not so interested what he or she watches on TV at night, maybe would be, but it’s more like how our lives are intertwined in so complex ways and how I want to kind of like this young, a child who wants to understand how everything works, really.

Matthew Dols 11:57
Oh, yeah, my favorite question that my parents constantly berate me for is that I always ask why.

Per Platou 12:04
Yeah, exactly. That’s, that’s the thing. So why, and also, how that how exactly how does that work? How does it work

Matthew Dols 12:13
with that, that’s the fun one that you can figure out as a general whole, like, you know, they take you know, how does microwave work? Well, you can just take a part of microwave and figure that out, you know, how does the toaster work? So how is reasonably sort of that’s the, the technical process of the creating something by dismantling it and figuring it out. But But why it works? That’s exponentially more difficult to me.

Per Platou 12:39
Yeah, why and the why and the how they are connected somehow,

Matthew Dols 12:44
I think there may be there the balance of the sort of the process and product and the the, the aesthetics versus the concept kind of thing. So like, there’s is that balance that exists throughout art as well?

Per Platou 13:00
Right, right. Exactly. I did you By the way, did you read this book called toaster protect? No, no, that’s a great because it’s a, the author wonders how he wants to build his own toaster, because he hates is broken. And then he wants to assemble his own. And to get to all the parts. It’s a whole book. And it’s such a fascinating story of every little part and why and how and you know, it’s it’s fantastic,

Matthew Dols 13:28
actually lovely, I’ll be sure to pick it up. All right, I want to ask something about your life, your creative life, I noticed a lot of your work throughout your life. So you’ve been sort of making music, then you’ve worked in theater, you’ve done installations and performances, you have this sort of trajectory of working very collaboratively. And that’s not and that’s very, to me, that’s very unique among the arts industry, outside of theater and other places that are very collaborative, but in the arts and do the visual arts, working collaboratively is not very common. And I feel like it takes a certain kind of a person or certain ethos of a person to check with their ego a little bit in check and, you know, work collaboratively with others. So how did you even come to sort of being a collaborative artist?

Per Platou 14:18
I guess it started because I was then setting up this kind of hub, this kind of store or you know, it was with all these little offices where we did things, and I started it just out of interest for music, but then we did become even a local political party. And so that was the social world arena around that and then I worked in radio, which is also kind of a social, at least among ourselves. It was a student radio so so when I actually started doing making art myself, it was because I met choreographer who later became my girlfriend and also creative partner, we started working together. So it was never out of the equation in a certain way. I mean, I sensed early on that the artists, you know, the the genius solo artists, the whole art world is framed to be this solo, this genius that basically speaking, yes,

Matthew Dols 15:21
but that’s exactly my point.

Per Platou 15:23
Yeah, but I wasn’t a painter, I never made anything like this you have to hang on the wall or things like that. So for me the way to get there was, obviously while playing in bands and all that, it came kind of naturally. And maybe it’s also because my technical skills have never been I mean, I’m not the worst, but I’m not brilliant in kind of anything, I guess. I’m pretty good at lots of things. And I’m still, like we talked about, like, curious and all that. So. So I guess the collaborative ness. Also, I know, triggers? Well, I’m jumping actually to do today in a certain way where I tried to make solo things. And I find it hard because I missed the thing. I also hate, you know, of course, like resistance, but I missed the resistance of the people. And also the little things to just kind of happen in the serendipity of any project. And the serendipity is a key word in my kind of whole life. But also in in a project when you’re working with one or more people, there is so many little things that influence how this project will becomes. And I love those and kind of learn to really, really appreciate it and go with the flow rather than fight against it and be that, you know, the engineer, let’s say who has to do things by the drawing, or by the map,

Matthew Dols 16:54
were you saying that like being collaborative is getting some pushback and all that, and it’s true, but of what I’ve learned, and of course, like, If I’d known this 20 years ago, it would have been very helpful. But and sadly I didn’t is that being even a solo artist like working in your studio, that’s all fine and good. But there’s a necessity for even those people to be collaborative because they need curators, or gallerists. Or, you know, other people. So like, even though they think they’re the solo people sort of off in their own little world doing their thing, all they’re doing is they’re sort of making a product. And then once they bring that product, quote, unquote, let’s say to market, they need to collaborate with other people. So even being an individual solo artist is a very collaborative process, if done correctly.

Per Platou 17:43
Absolutely. And this is also kind of ethically, and maybe politically, what I don’t like so much about the visual art world is that they never credit those other people, except maybe in the kind of introduction or in the credits and credits, you know, somewhere in the catalogue or hidden away. But it’s always this idea of this solo genius. And I’m very, you know, back to music and maybe the 80s or when hip hop came along, and you saw credit lists, like because I was really into music, I read all the little little notes on the, you know, vinyl records, and who played bass there, and oh, that woman is singing along on the course, you know, on that song five. And I missed that so much in the visual art world, because I thought maybe I’m not sure about this, but I’m also one of those guys. And I discovered, you know, by working together with people and we gave each other credit all the time and critique we took everything we did like down talking maybe the radio period, you know, we criticize, we listen to each other’s radio shows and then had this kind of almost like public critique sessions where we listened and went through all their you played that and you said that? Why didn’t you ask that to that person or so it was very kind of helpful. And I thought we took credit together. And later also in rock and roll bands and all kinds of different bands. See you The Three Musketeers that you’re together. I mean, you went together, you lose together in a certain way. And I love that feeling also, that’s, I guess most people do, maybe not in their artistic endeavor, but but as you said, there’s always lots of people around even the most prominent solo artists.

Matthew Dols 19:41
Oh, sure. I mean, I used to work in as a roadie I used to tour around with rock and roll bands doing their lights and sound. So like, it takes an army to put on a concert at a certain level. It’s not a solo job by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, I did the YouTube tour. For one year, and it took, took 100 people seven days to install the stage and lights and sound.

Per Platou 20:07
Exactly, yeah, well, but then you know, the whole mechanics, this whole machinery and it’s sold. So every little piece in that machinery has a function. Obviously, if the guitar tuner for the edge doesn’t do his job,

Matthew Dols 20:22
oh, he would be fired. Yeah, no, that would that’s that mean? If I screwed up my job at that time, they would just fill in with another body. It didn’t matter. I wasn’t that. I wasn’t that special or unique. But yeah, the guitar tuner Absolutely.

Per Platou 20:35
Or you know, or the sound man. If you fire off the Pyro at the wrong moment. It’s kind of super silly. It’s like suddenly becomes Spinal Tap, you know? So that kind of thing is kind of delicate. Oh, yeah.

Matthew Dols 20:48
I’ve seen that happen, too. Yeah.

Per Platou 20:50
Yeah, yeah. But I love the collaborative ness. And not because it’s easy, because of course, like now, and especially the last year, it’s hard to do collaborative works. So I’ve sat alone for a lot, and it’s kind of it has it’s good sides. I mean, I’m read more, have more time for my, well, solo works. But then it’s harder because I, I don’t know when to stop. I don’t know, which is what’s good. What’s crap. No one kind of tells me that Oh, stop that. You’ve done that for two hours now. Or if I make some sound or music, no one, even to say, hey, when you had it, the first three minutes were great. And then why are you still doing it? Oh, it’s

Matthew Dols 21:36
hard, I do the same thing. I, I find that I ride that line of either under working so I haven’t done enough to a piece or I overwork it. And it’s just it’s to do just well, overworked is the easiest word for it. It’s really hard to find that perfect. Like, that’s the right resolution of this idea whether it’s in sound or or painting or whatever.

Per Platou 22:02
Exactly. And it helps with other people there because at least you can sometimes agree that part was magical. And that was maybe not so important. But of course, I mean, the deadlines in the real world, in the art world or in the performance, or theater world, or whatever, which world you are in. I mean, it’s always tough. I know. I’m kind of lazy, I am very eager to start. And then maybe if it’s too long time, I’ll lose momentum. And then it comes back the last couple of weeks. And then I don’t sleep You know, you’re nervous. You think it’s crap, you think it’s fantastic. next minute, and next morning, it’s crap again, and you know, you’re sleepless, and then but then it just happens. And sometimes it becomes kind of good works, because you didn’t actually have time to polish that part in integral part of whatever worked.

Matthew Dols 23:01
Oh, you’re not alone. I have the same problem.

Per Platou 23:04
Yeah, I could imagine. I think we lots of us actually do have that. And we know it. And it’s hard, just like you say, like, underworked or overworked and it’s very, very hard without other people, and or at least it could be a curator, just a partner. But you know, like a friend or a girlfriend or my kids, they wouldn’t be the right people to actually say, because they could just want to be to kind of please me and say, Oh, that’s fine. That’s fine. That’s good. Oh, it sounds great. Oh, yeah, I’m

Matthew Dols 23:36
a teacher. And I am constantly telling my students, I’m like, show your work to anybody except a loved one or a relative, because they’re all going to be just like really polite and nice. They’re not going to give you an actual good critique.

Per Platou 23:50
No, but on the other hand, just keep the conversation going. It’s also hard, and I’m not good at actually taking critique when I’m in the process, because, um, it’s so vulnerable, and I feel I’m aware of everything. I can’t hide behind any pretensions or it’s, so that’s so vulnerable. I’m like a turtle on my back, you know, so because it I haven’t finished my work until it’s finished. You just have to trust me. And this. Luckily, I’ve been lucky to work with one company called VAT productions, a theatre company. I’ve worked with them for now 17 years and lots of productions. And they just kind of trust me, it doesn’t mean we don’t fight all the time, about everything. I mean, all of us fight. At least it’s a great fight because it’s based on kind of a certain crust. And we all know that we will have the premiere and then we will make this and it will be some dynamics built into itself. This work. It’s kind of it’s not a static kind of thing. We’re not fascist, we don’t think the same we don’t. We don’t like to say art or music or literature, you know, it’s, it will always have some built in resistance, which I think, well, at least to me, good art has that kind of duality at least or complexity got.

Matthew Dols 25:20
I agree 100%. With critiques, they’re incredibly difficult and emotional and vulnerable positions to be in. I personally hate them. Mostly when I’m still in the middle of a project. Yeah. Once I’m done with it, and I’ve, and I feel confident with it, and I’ve put it out into the world, I still don’t really love a critique, but, but I’ll take it better on the chin than in when I’m in the middle. Because one thing that I find difficult is being questioned sort of halfway through. So like, you haven’t gotten to a resolution, you don’t know the answers yourself. And people are already starting to question it. And I find that very difficult, though in all intermittency like, I often find it the most helpful, later, but at the moment, it’s the most difficult thing like in the moment to perceive those things.

Per Platou 26:16
I absolutely agree with you. Yeah, it’s the same here. Because but it’s important critique also, because it puts up questions that you didn’t know, were there maybe? And because comes always from an unexpected angle, always. I mean, there’s no exception to that.

Matthew Dols 26:33
Well, a good critique would

Per Platou 26:35
Yeah, but even the bad ones, well, maybe I just kind of ignore them in a certain way that the bad or this the things that they’ll decent doesn’t sound like the doors. I mean, I know that because it’s a synthesizer in some kind of transducer microphone, recording underwater or whatever, that I know, it doesn’t sound like the doors or bias fair. But or this is hard to play on the radio. I mean, this is not critique to me, that would just be like, very silly friend Who wouldn’t? I wouldn’t hang out with to

Matthew Dols 27:08
a critique for me, though, should be constructive. That’s the I don’t, because critique and critic are too similar. And they’re, they’re often equated with simply just judgment, whereas a constructive criticism is supportive, and potentially like opening some doors or offering a different path that maybe you hadn’t thought of. That that’s very helpful. But yeah, criticism. I’m not. I guess it’s healthy in the industry, but I don’t really appreciate it

Per Platou 27:43
now, but of course, it doesn’t have to be constructive. Because I also appreciate you know, questions, like people ask questions, and without having knowing the answer to them, which is great, because it’s like so let’s say they, you’ve started something where you put some, let’s say, in a theatrical play, you have a certain dramaturgy and you introduce some kind of set of this particular reality and that play. And then you later you forget, because so much happen during the next hour that you forget. And if someone says, but what happened to that or aren’t you breaking your own rules or something like that? And then sometimes it’s so obvious and it’s like, oh, shit, you’re right. So questions, but but also constructive critique, like you say, definitely,

Matthew Dols 28:35
indeed. Alright, I want to move on to another topic that I saw that on your Wikipedia page which again, I think is incredibly admirable that you even have a Wikipedia page I want to get one of those some days but but the it talks about copyright issues in art and music and sampling and all this kind of stuff. So like give me like your position on all that stuff. But just to get started

Per Platou 29:01
growing up in 70s 80s we did have like what I call normal cassettes but it’s maybe for not for everyone but this Yeah, cassettes. I just choose to call them cassettes and pretending people know what it is

Matthew Dols 29:15
that so I recorded from radio you know music just to be sure I’m close to your generation I know fully know what a cassette is.

Per Platou 29:23
Yeah, I know you do. But actually, I’m surprised but even though it’s become back into kind of some kind of hipster fashion, I guess so people know what

Matthew Dols 29:32
cassettes are. vinyl is back in fashion, for sure. That’s very trendy and collectible, or sure,

Per Platou 29:38
but also the last kind of five years. I could discuss that for hours. But let’s I’ll stick question well, so I started recording and then you with hip hop or you know early sorts of hip hop with all these kind of credits. I thought it was suddenly interesting to discover what the kind of cool losh is it’s snippets of things. And we’ve all seen it in even in school books or even newspapers or magazines or commercials, these kind of collages of things. Yeah, set up juxtapositions, like we talked about. So. And when I started making music myself using a computer, in the 90s, I mean, that’s what the computer is, is best at, and still is. It’s copy, paste, copy, paste, that’s the, that’s the essence of what a computer does. So to copy and paste, sound snippets, and even grooves and try to assemble them, we started doing that all the time. And then I met other people doing kind of more or less the same. This was the early days of music, online music and all that kind of stuff. And I started reading up a little bit about how the industry, the record industry, and the copyright industry works. And I found it kind of unfair, that, let’s say somebody place some very well known music on an event, and you record something on that event, let’s say you do something with your hands, and you want to record that sound, or just the background sound of a festival, you know, festival crowd or something. And then someone would say, No, you can’t use that, because it’s that music in the background, and documentary filmmakers that I knew, what’s this? Why are they doing that? And with sampling, you’re not allowed to sample things that are on the radio 100 times a day, you know, and use it as a kind of a cheeky kind of reference in a certain way contextual reference, which I thought was would be so well, I still think it’s good when people pick up that those level, what’s now called, I’m not sure if I’m correct in saying names, but you know, all these little pop cultural street smartness kind of little things.

Matthew Dols 32:08
I would go with memes. Sure. That sounds right to me, but I’m also of your generation. So yeah, preaching to the choir. So I saw meme sounds right.

Per Platou 32:17
So in a way, that’s the kind of the fairness of the whole thing. So I started getting involved with and when we started with me, and a friend started making music online, like in 9495. When I first got connected on the online, the first thing I started looking for was sounds. Anyway, there was this guy in Italy, I think, running something called musicians against the copywriting of samples, Marcos. And I thought it was Oh, brilliant. And then but then I get, I’m also a member, I did make some songs, wrote some songs. So I’m a member of the art lead composers kind of union around the rightholders, you name whatever it is called.

Matthew Dols 33:02
I have no idea because it these unions and stuff are pretty much a European thing. We don’t have these things in America.

Per Platou 33:10
Well, you do have them because someone collects the money, I guess for you know,

Matthew Dols 33:14
yeah, we have like royalties and that kind of stuff.

Per Platou 33:18
Exactly. Yeah. And they are so much against they say oh, this is taking away our livelihood and our living. Because people are pirating music. And I said, Come on, you can afford it. You too, you can afford it this this famous case with YouTube and this group negative land from the States. Anyway, so I found it very unfair. And I thought this is a culture where being drowned in so much cultural content, and we’re not allowed to even comment culturally on them. I thought that was super unfair. So I started fighting it. Like the other thing I told you about, this was mostly for fun, like a cheeky kind of, you know, f Fuck you. We’re going to do this anyway. So see what Come and get me and they tried to get me a couple of times, because I did maybe went over the line to a certain extent. But it became like a jester came in this kind of gesture. And then some people started following me because of that. So I became like this kind of hero for a certain small part of the underground. So then I kind of enjoyed that position. But I still think the copyrights societies, they actually won this game. I mean, now everyone’s using Spotify. I become the old guy, who still I do buy my music online on Bandcamp and stuff like that. But also while I’m still sampling, but now it’s so cheesy, everyone does it. So if you do talk to obviously, like I did, playfully back in the 90s. It’s now considered very, very cheesy.

Matthew Dols 34:52
But even in the visual arts, we have the issue of like appropriation, you know, to people taking images and Then reworking them. So like, I mean, I’m, it’s tough like I understand the complaint that composers and many creators of music and visual arts have against appropriation and copyright infringement and all that, because I am a creator, and I’m like, I don’t want people to steal my stuff, and then then make money off of it. And I make nothing off of it.

Per Platou 35:23
No. But you have this notion in the US. And it’s actually better, lots of or alone when it comes to fair use. Because at least you have this paragraph called fair use in the US law.

Matthew Dols 35:38
Please elaborate on fair use, then,

Per Platou 35:41
well, fair use, it’s allowed to take a little snippet of, let’s say, a cultural content, like you could use a sentence from Seinfeld on TV or you know, for satire, you can use it for quotes, because you need to show what you’re actually you say, Cramer is a right wing or you know, anti semitic or something, you know, you remember this story a long time ago. And you want to know, what is it actually about? So you hear this thing that he actually said, which is controversial, let’s say, I’m talking about now a public figure, who said something, but then the right holder, let’s say his publishing company would say, No, we’ve taken this away, we’ve removed it, you can’t hear it, you’re not allowed to ever play that recording of this guy saying that. So it kind of takes away this kind of free speech, it takes away every kind of fear, or people’s ability to make a fair opinion on stuff. So fair use, it’s like you’re actually allowed to quote, even like a famous poet or something, you can actually quote him or her, and in music, and in art and all so but you can’t exploit it. So I can’t record like Rolling Stones, and then sample it for four beats, and then put on a rhythm and just release it and cash in millions of dollars, because it became kind of a cult hit. And that’s a kind of a fair use that if you make money from it, you are exploiting someone else’s work. But if you’re doing it as a comment, it’s well non commercial in a certain way. But then this is, of course, more complex when you start diving into that because I, for instance, I’m not a famous person, but I make a living from, let’s say, or you as a professor, as a teacher, you are, of course, you’re digesting other people’s work, and you’re reciting it in front of your students sign a certain way. We’re all part of that machinery

Matthew Dols 37:44
years ago, when not many years ago, but eight, nine years ago, we actually had an issue where some artists and publishing houses so that that published like art history books and stuff started to ask for, like royalties, basically for creating slide lectures using images from the publications, even though they were used in an educational setting. And that was a big sort of like, what that was, I never understood that that issue.

Per Platou 38:16
No, because it’s, I mean, I’m paid for I mean, we all make a living Somehow, I mean, lots of us,

Matthew Dols 38:23
hopefully, we all make a living,

Per Platou 38:25
hopefully, yeah. But let’s say in principle, either get money from public fund or the state or some workplace or a university or institution where you work, or you sell your works, maybe basically, like, and I’m between all those categories. And I guess you are too because you’re an artist, and you’re a teacher, and probably lots of other things. Indeed, yes. So it’s a kind of a complex, but we should also, I mean, it has become the way that those with lots of money, the law fair kind of term, it means like it’s warfare and law mixed together. So the rich people they pay off to protect their rights extra, while they themselves kind of grab or steal, if you like from other artists. And I learned this back then in I guess, it must have been 90s when Madonna and you know, even Beastie Boys actually, they sample from lots of people, Madonna samples from Alba. And of course, she gets that cleared before she uses it and she gets permission and she pays probably a lot to use that sample from that she uses in this gimme, gimme.

Matthew Dols 39:36
I always wondered about Paul’s boutique. Yeah, how could they do that album because like, it’s all samples.

Per Platou 39:42
It’s all samples. And I love that. I love that because if you credit if you use the all hip hop, call it ethos. It’s like you sample it’s an honor. If I sample you if I sample this conversation, it’s an honor. It should be an honor to you and I would credit you for making this work. According, then I would later resample it using on the track, blah, blah, blah. And it would be considered an honor, I pay my dues to my, you know, for mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters, you know, this was how it worked. And I love that kind of maybe a little bit like in a hippie Hello bohemian? Yeah, bohemian. So I hate it when those rights are kind of, I mean, like, even Beastie Boys, especially Madonna. Of course, she pays off Abba. But she also steals from all these little guys on Soundcloud or wherever they are, without even mentioning them.

Matthew Dols 40:39
What a music sampling, it gets even more difficult because like, you can just hear something and go like, hey, and not even realize it like so not actively or intentionally, but you could be influenced by having heard a beat or rhythm or whatever. And then suddenly, you put it in. And people are like, Hey, you stole that and you’re like, not, I just heard it, it was just, you know, I was in a friend’s car, and they were playing it, and it just sort of was in my brain. Like, there, it’s really hard to sort of prove the difference between active intentional stealing, versus just, it was in the ethos, and you just sort of heard it, and it just became part of your music. Like, that’s a really difficult thing to prove.

Per Platou 41:22
Exactly. And sometimes it’s subconsciously, indeed, it sit in that car, you have a really good time. And you know, it’s just a beat, you didn’t even notice you were in the car with friends, and you were having fun. And then a week later, or at least for me, I could sit and make something and then I suddenly that lead kind of comes back to me. And I might steal the whole kind of main riff or whatever to call it, without even knowing it. And this has happened to 1000s of artists all the times. So it’s all a part of, I mean, I like to say like we drink from and we swim in and we piss in the same river. It’s like a soup, you know, we swim in it, and we drink from it. And we listen it. I like that metaphor.

Matthew Dols 42:07
Yeah, I would say something like Art’s not made in a vacuum. So we’re, we’re constantly influenced by all of our life experiences. Like, I always noticed that, like, the color palettes that I start using are because I happen to notice those colors a lot, sort of just in existence, like I’ll just be walking by stores or seeing other people’s apartments or cars or whatever things with colors in them. And suddenly, I’m like, Oh, you know, those colors are beautiful. And like, it just it’s not an intentional change in my belief of colors. But it’s just because of the prevalence of them in my daily life.

Per Platou 42:43
Right. But anyway, I think the politics back to the sampling question. And in general, I think there’s too little talk of actual, I’m not by politics, I’m not a Marxist. I don’t vote the Marxist party or anything, but I like Marxist ik kind of analysis where you go back to follow the money kind of thing. So the structures of how to make art and how what do the structures allow you to do? And in what way, I’m curious to find the well in exploring that territory in a certain way, which is not like being on the barricade. And I mean, that’s also important, of course, or union work, or all that comes without saying, but it’s the politics of how the institutions work like they do, let’s say, because if I asked, Why do you keep on having this kind of solo artist genius model? Why do you still keep doing that? Why don’t you give credits to everyone? Like the roadies or you know what I mean? It could be collaborative. Why do art groups have such a big problem with getting through instead of as opposed to solo artists. And this is kind of politics.

Matthew Dols 43:54
In the same way in music where the musician or the singer or the band gets all the acclaim but not necessarily so much the producer.

Per Platou 44:02
Exactly. Or even the songwriter there was this big story just yesterday or two days ago, how now some Hollywood’s big music, business songwriters, they are tired of not getting the respect they feel they deserve. Because the artists, the big artists, especially they even they claim, like if you’re super big, let’s say or I mean, this is just an example. But if you’re Lady Gaga, and someone has written a song, and your producers have said this song you should do and then Lady Gaga says or management says, Yeah, we’ll use your song, which I mean, he was if it was you, you know, it would make you millions of recorded song, it might even become the single and you know, oh, wow, I can buy that house. Now if that becomes a hit, but then they say, but I’m not sure if I’m going to do it. How many percentages Will you give me for recording it? And then they have to actually they sell their rights. to that song to make any money at all. Okay, wait,

Matthew Dols 45:04
I’m not in the music industry these days, is it done? Like, I know, in the old days, songwriters would write a song for an artist, and they would just pay them a flat fee. Generally, the key here is $500. For the song, is it still done that way? Or is it done by percentages these days, like he,

Per Platou 45:20
it’s usually, as far as I know, I’m kind of out of this business a long time ago, and I was never really in it. But I think you get like 15% 20%, that’s normal, the flat fee. But of course, it’s more complex, because if it’s being used, and let’s say, as part of the rightholders demand, if you buy the publishing rights of a song, you can use it for a commercial, you can exploit it in different ways in different territories. And so and so. So if you sell a song to the famous artist, and you get, let’s say, a flat fee or a percentage, I think that’s done very, very differently across the line.

Matthew Dols 45:57
What me what I’m also I’m very pessimistic and very sort of conspiracy theorist. And so like, I, I would sit there and be like, yeah, okay, that’s all fine. Let’s say it’s a percentage, well, then those people because like they do this in the movie industry as well, where they say, Oh, the actors worked for percentage, but the, the movie industry then could just cook their books and just say, Oh, no, we didn’t make any money on it. So we’re not going to pay you anything, even though they made $100 million.

Per Platou 46:25
Exactly. And this is the same way it works. Because if you good lawyers, I mean, they would make lots of money to just make sure you get $1 or you don’t get $1 it always ends up $1 below zero. It’s I’ve read my Joan Didion, you know, the White Album, essays. They’re brilliant. Have you read them?

Matthew Dols 46:45
I’m sorry, say the name again.

Per Platou 46:47
Joan Didion. It’s the kind of essayist American, the Hollywood Kronecker to say, No, she’s she’s dead now. But she’s brilliant. Then she has one little essay where she describes that model of the producers always ending up $1 below zero. That’s a perfect, because they always makes more they produce expenses to make more money for themselves. Advertising expenses, travel expenses, whatever. Yeah, yeah, all of that. But the flat fee again, let’s say, I do write a few songs. And if someone came to me and say, well, I’ll pay you $2,000. And you know, it’s a pretty famous person, or this could become a hit or a flat fee of 20 or 2000. It’s like, Huh, I think it’s worth more and they say, okay, five, and then it’s like shit, should I do this or shouldn’t die. And they know that. So I think the politics of the neoliberal system is kind of terrible. And I’m depressed as your

Matthew Dols 47:56
I hope I’m not depressed, but I am. disillusioned, let’s say,

Per Platou 48:01
Yeah, okay, disillusion me. I’m not depressed. It’s kind of grim. It’s actually grim. I see some hopes, though, across the globe amongst younger generations that

Matthew Dols 48:12
Well, okay, so like, on that topic, what do you what are your What’s your opinion slash knowledge about NF T’s?

Per Platou 48:20
What’s that? Oh, is that the Bitcoin things that non

Matthew Dols 48:23
fungible something really? Yeah.

Per Platou 48:26
Oh, yeah. You know, I don’t have an opinion on it.

Matthew Dols 48:31
Okay, that’s fine.

Per Platou 48:32
But I have some reference, because I’ve been a lot doing lots of electronic art kind of stuff. And I was kind of early adopter and kind of use that a lot with this choreographer, Amanda Stegall. And we started using no cameras and all this kind of equipment very early on. And that also showed me the world of net art net dot art, which is a particular kind of little corner of internet art, which was more kind of conceptual, in a certain way. And the big question, because lots of people that record in the music industry, the movie industry, book publishers, they said, Oh, with the internet, we’re going to lose our lives, or it’s going to take all our money from us, because it’s all free out there. It’s like a piracy and all that, because it was a Russian artist called Ollie Lena, who proved that it’s actually possible to make an artwork and digital artwork, put it online and sell it and still keep the artwork for free out there. So the act of buying an artwork is actually a kind of symbolic action. It’s a ritual in a certain way with some legal implications, of course, but the NF T’s I just read up on it like a month ago with this guy who sold the work for 62. Yeah, people yeah. But when looking into it to me It’s all it has more to do with the world of finance than the world of art in a certain way.

Matthew Dols 50:08
Agreed.

Per Platou 50:09
So I’m not so interested in it because artistically, I mean, it’s interesting what he actually he did with this famous collage or this sampling of how many million

Matthew Dols 50:18
5000? Yeah, images, he made one a day for 10 years, I think something like that.

Per Platou 50:25
But to me, it’s kind of a novelty, which is maybe interesting in the world of Bitcoin, and maybe the art collectors that are only in it for the money, which, I mean, let’s face it, the art world is such a big part of the black market economy.

Matthew Dols 50:41
Yeah, I’ve got the feeling that the whole NFT thing is primarily more about money laundering, basically.

Per Platou 50:49
Exactly, exactly. Because I can say I buy let’s say you make an NF t in an hour. And I say, buys for so and so many bitcoins or I don’t know, we can even use dollars. And I say, Yeah, I paid you $20,000 for it. And then you make another one and I pay another 20,000. Aren’t those money then laundered in a certain way?

Matthew Dols 51:13
Already? To be clear, as a disclaimer, I have absolutely no proof of my accusation that it’s money laundering. It’s purely my own opinion.

Per Platou 51:21
No, no, but I’ll be happy to go along with the idea that it could be about money and this money laundering thing. It was a TV series here in Norway, just like recently called the exit. It’s about the financial market more like young people, you know, doing cocaine and doing all this women cars, cocaine, expensive watches.

Matthew Dols 51:42
The good old days.

Per Platou 51:44
Yeah, that kind of what’s it called this this movie with the corporeal

Matthew Dols 51:48
walls, Wolf of Wall Street?

Per Platou 51:51
Yeah, exactly. Or the other one with Michael Douglas. But anyway, they used arch as just money laundering machines, they buy some art, they never watch it, they have it in a container. They do buy it, but no one knows how much the word what’s the actual worth of this painting, or the sculpture or this NFT. So it’s this kind of very vague world. I’m super interested in it as when it comes to Ark, but I wish there were some juicy stories about money laundering coming up, then I would read more.

Matthew Dols 52:27
Just wait, I’m sure they’ll come out in a couple years.

Per Platou 52:29
I’m sure.

Matthew Dols 52:30
All right, last topic that I saw on your stuff on your CV is a thing project space landers.

Per Platou 52:38
Yeah, it’s project space landers. So it’s a project space in landers, California. Okay, got

Matthew Dols 52:44
it. Yes. subtle difference, but important.

Per Platou 52:47
Yeah, that’s kind of fun story. There’s a woman I met here in Oslo, like seven years ago, eight years ago. Her name is Chiara Giovanni Otto. And she was part of a group that curated shows at a place called human resources in Los Angeles. It’s big old cinema, in the old downtown area. And now all Chinatown sorry. And I thought, This is my big break. In my head. That was like Mama. I mean, I stopped working with Amanda, the group who kind of broke up, the relationship broke up. So I was kind of a solo artist. I thought, Oh, this is my super big break. I did some years with sound art installations, they grew. And then I thought, This is my big thing in Los Angeles. So I went back and forth the next year back and forth to look at this place and had this grand ideas. And then, you know, a month before I called cure, and I said, Yeah, okay, so let’s opening is on Friday, isn’t it? And she said, yeah, that’s fine. Make sure you make something that can be taken down by Sunday. And it’s like, what a kidding. Because in my head, I was going to be there for at least like three weeks or this was my big show, right? And then I was really disappointed. And she said, Oh, yeah, I see. Oh, and then she had just bought a house up in Joshua Tree, California. In the high desert. We should like three hours east of Los Angeles. And she’d like me to make something there something different, which I did. So I was alone there for a couple of weeks. She left me there in the house. I lost my way out there. You know, it was kind of exciting. And then she left me there. She just showed me the house. And I was so afraid of snakes and crazy people and meth heads and spiders and coyotes and Mad Max people and so I was terrified, but still I woke up which I never do. Otherwise, I woke up every morning like five o’clock at sunrise and I started working very happily. I didn’t have a phone connection, no internet. I was so happy and it was exciting. And a bit scary. And also, I’ve managed to make a little insulation and kinetic sculpture with some guitars. Well, anyway, that was done. I was about to go home and I thought, Oh, I have to buy some land here, like, you know, like 30 square meters to put up a tent or whatever. And mobile home,

Matthew Dols 55:20
you can buy just 30 square meters.

Per Platou 55:23
No, I didn’t know anything about what you could buy or not buy. I had a flat day in Oslo. That was all. But I didn’t know anything about anything like that. And especially not in California. But I started looking for just like properties. And then I did it. Well, it kind of snowballs a little bit. So I ended up buying a house. It’s a long story, actually, I bought one and I lost it in something. It’s legal process called escrow. But I bought a house. And finally I found the house. And then I just bought it. I brought or took a mortgage from Norway, and actually bought it pretty cheap. It’s a small place with two and a half acres and 50 square meters with water and electricity, and I installed Wi Fi. So I started being there as a kind of an escape, I guess, from my life in Oslo, and also the history in a certain way. And I guess, to be honest, like myself in a certain way. But that was also curious to discover who this person me is without my network of people and kind of all its stories. So I got this place, got out there all by myself and started meeting people. And people, you know, ask now, where are you from? And it’s like, yeah, I’m from Norway. And they say, Oh, right. And that’s it. They didn’t ask very much.

Matthew Dols 56:43
Really, I get in America, they always ask what do you do?

Per Platou 56:47
Yeah. Well, if they do, and I say I’m a kind of artist decision. That Right, right, right. One of those? Yep. That

Matthew Dols 56:53
that ends the conversation again.

Per Platou 56:55
Yeah. So I suddenly found that, oh, everything I’ve done, it’s worth kind of nothing here. So I had to rebuild in a certain way. I’m just one of those because there are lots of kind of poor people, poor artists, but also more successful artists who had ventured out there to discover nature, some kind of other way of being, I guess, and pay God and mescaline. Absolutely. Yeah, that was the start of it, I guess in a certain way in like 60s 70s. And it kind of developed into New Age and, but also this kind of Mad Max as people are in during gentrification in Los Angeles, people are squeezed out and they moving out of the big cities and out to the desert. And that’s definitely had some impact in that story. People are out there to cook There are so vast areas, and then people could set up mobile lab anywhere. Oh, I’m

Matthew Dols 57:47
all for it. I my big dream these days is actually to live in my this is my dream. I want to live somewhere where I can go out on my front porch naked and see nobody. Yeah, and nobody sees me. I found the place like that.

Per Platou 58:02
So I tried to rediscover my own art my it’s kind of a studio, it’s a one room. It’s a bedroom and a studio and a kitchen, and the porch and the car. And that’s about it. So then to discover how will I spend my day? What will actually without anyone noticing? or looking? Or will I get up? Yes, I will get up? Will I wash? I actually do that. And I don’t drink all the time or smoke weed all the time, or just you know, do nothing I actually produce and I discover and I discover new people. So I found that immensely interesting. And also to discover all these lives out there, why and how people got there. And it’s fascinating. And it’s such a big expanded my scale of understanding different kinds of trajectories in life immensely. Because people are so different out there. And I love it. And now I set it up as a kind of working space and also recreational space for myself but also for others. So I’m using it or lending it out as a rate as I call it. The residency. Very unpretentious. But if you want to go, you send me a mail or you call me and and you have it but I say it’s at least for a month. And it’s for free. Although you pay the utilities like water and Wi Fi. And that’s it. And you decide what to do there. You don’t have to show anything or produce anything. It’s there. If you want to write if you want to stare at the stars, it’s fine.

Matthew Dols 59:38
That sounds magical in many ways.

Per Platou 59:40
Yeah. I mean, it’s not like I saw the series based on that book. I love dick. It’s about an artist who in Marfa, Texas, he’s the guy dick. There’s a couple moving there and both of them falls in love with this guy dick. But he asked his place which is pristine. Of course he goes up next Good with his boots on. Looks at the rattlesnake and the sunrise but it’s a little bit more. I do see houses I do see some people say here my neighbor’s dog barking 24. Seven and you know, it’s it has it’s definitely its reality, which is not a Hollywood movie, but it’s still fantastic. I really I miss it so much. I haven’t been there for one and a half years now.

Matthew Dols 1:00:24
Well, I mean, that’s the thing is like artists generally want. Like, I think that I figure what I could come up with, I think it’s four things, time, space and money of its three things. Yeah, so they be ability to just sort of drop out of all the stresses of daily life and then be able to devote your time to even just thinking much less producing it without distraction is an incredible luxury.

Per Platou 1:00:49
Yeah, it is a luxury. So I’m going to keep that and use it. So if anyone wants to go there, I mean, it’s too small to have lots of people there. So I’m usually when I’m there, I’m usually there by myself, or with maybe friends visiting. But but if someone wants to be there by themselves, and they have to take full responsibility of keeping the house. I don’t like Airbnb, that system because it kind of gentrify ‘s this area. Now it’s rich people from you know, the West Coast to go there to have parties and take drugs and play loud music. And it’s not what it’s actually for. I mean, I don’t mind people doing that, of course, but I want people to go there to explore the actual state of being there and to discover the neighbors and the nature and you know, the animals.

Matthew Dols 1:01:38
It sounds fabulous. Let’s sort of wrap this up. I have two last questions I asked everybody. So the first one would be three contemporary artists. Now given that you’re in music, it can be any form of artists. So just contemporary artists that you’re looking at that you think are already sort of noteworthy or that influenced you or anything like that. Oh, you

Per Platou 1:02:01
should have given me some time to prepare,

Matthew Dols 1:02:04
though. I love springing this on people this that if you prepare, then it’s not as interesting.

Per Platou 1:02:09
I take this much too seriously. And also for me, this would be disaster when I later tonight,

Matthew Dols 1:02:15
you can say more than three threes. Just a random number I made up

Per Platou 1:02:19
Yeah, for the first one who actually springs to mind is James terell. Of course, yes, I

Matthew Dols 1:02:25
see that.

Per Platou 1:02:26
Let’s say one musician that is called kid koala is Canadian. He comes from kind of hip hop and electronica. And I got to know him a little bit, I listened to some of his albums, I discovered Patreon, this service called patron through him when the epidemic hit. And it’s like you pay $10 a month, which is like here in Norway, that’s like, it’d be here, too. And then he, you get access to some of his shows. And he makes kind of music for reading. He calls it it’s not like ambient is a little bit more groovy. But it’s not like with lyrics. And every week, every Monday night, he produces a show to our live show where the patrons meet, and he has this kind of little video stream, which is kind of a little bit already. And I get access to that and some insights of how he actually produces. So it’s that transparency of the whole process of making something and being an artist in this pandemic time. So at least inspires me. So that’s two. And there’s one filmmaker over here, actually, who is probably not so well known, but she’s called eternia. Get Thompson but she made a film, her first feature film, and it’s called grit. It’s about an artist, a female, another female artist in her let’s say late 30s, or early 40s, who struggles about existence and everything. And she goes to New York, but she’s an idealist in a certain way, but also kind of a dreamer. She has her ideas are too big for the actual world. And she’s not capable of producing any of it. But she’s very funny. And she’s also she struggles in an existential way. And I love that it’s made by this young, collective not well without the big film systems. And it’s also I have to mention also My own view friend here in Oslo. It’s a young artist called Hannah and then Omar, her family’s from Algeria. And she lived in Paris and I met her 10 years ago in Oslo. She was not 20. I mean, she’s the same age as my son, my oldest son. She’s great. She’s temperamental, but we did play together. Were always discussing politics and she was part of a collective who made the very famous theatrical piece here in Norway called ways of seeing based on the title from verger. She said fighter and the provocateur in many ways and also fights for you know, the ego Quality of racists and politics. So it’s important struggles when we’re talking about politics, because I think someone actually has to keep that fight going, that the generation actually before us the hippies or the 60 haters, as we call them here. Then later, maybe the political movements of the 70s, where I wasn’t so involved. And I was living through the 90s, where politics was just kind of go happy. It was kind of the pre neoliberalism. Everything opened up, I was so happy and felt free. But now I see the need for more political action.

Matthew Dols 1:05:36
That’s marvelous. All right. The last question, of course, is just advice for the next generation, what could they do? to have more will quote, say like, quote unquote, successful careers?

Per Platou 1:05:49
I would say, don’t worry about it. The career, worry about the world be active. Just be active all the time. Just engage with people. Be curious, take part say yes. I mean, it’s almost like this. I haven’t read that novel. I’ve either heard about it this, or this principle of just saying yes to absolutely anything that people propose us or this dice, man. But I would say say yes, it’s good advice. Just do it. Because at least that it’s maybe an old person’s advice. I’m not sure because I think the world is different. Now.

Matthew Dols 1:06:25
My professors gave the same advice. They used to say, whenever somebody comes to you, a curator, gallerist, professional, commercial client, whatever, you’re the answer is always Yes. Then you figure out how to do it.

Per Platou 1:06:38
Yeah, exactly. And that’s the advice. And also, don’t be afraid to step outside your boundaries in a certain way to be unsafe. Because if you’ve done that, enough times, that’s also a matter of learning to cope with. It’s like improvisation in music, or in all forms of art. Live art is like what happens and you learn to pick up your need to learn to listen and look and be aware of people around you in a certain way, and then pick up and try your best to adapt to it. Because, you know, I’ve learned to know that the others are always as insecure as I am. That’s liberation to acknowledge that because I know that I’m not alone in being feeling insecure in this setting. And then I relax, actually. Yeah. And to young people. It’s hard sometimes, because you think that and maybe we do I mean, we as older or as teachers expect certain things, and we’re disappointed if they don’t do it that way. But that resistance will make you stronger. I’m not sure I find it hard. I think they know best what to do. But we have to play the role, don’t we to pretend to give advice

Matthew Dols 1:07:46
on it’s not a pretend to give advice thing. It’s a what I’ve noticed is when I talk to people who are even mid career slash later in their careers, they their perspective is, you know, that time and distance gives them a little bit of more understanding, because like, if, now that I’ve done this podcast, so I’ve done 170, some episodes by now. And I’ve realized so many things, it was funny, I had this conversation with an old friend of mine the other day. And basically, there are elements of the creative industries that we’re not allowed to know, until we’ve been in it for 20 years. Like, there are things that like, you can’t understand the how they fit together, or why they fit together until you’ve had some experiences time and perspective on having gone through those things. So like, if, you know, contemporary mean, now we’re to go back to 20 something year old me and tell them the things that I know now that are the truths about the art world, I wouldn’t believe it in my 20s I’d be like, No, that can’t be it’s not like that it’s this but because you’re you’re not willing to like sort of accept it and say like, oh, okay, it is that screwed up, or, oh, that is wrong. So the idea of the the advice at the end of the podcast is to try and give some of the younger listeners or your you know, mid career listeners some some words that help them to maybe attain some of that information that we’ve gotten now that we’re later in our careers, so that they don’t have to have such difficulty with there’s,

Per Platou 1:09:31
yeah, I totally agree. And to accept that we all make kind of mistakes and we’re unsure or maybe about our art or our work in a certain way.

Matthew Dols 1:09:44
This whole podcast is all about all the mistakes that I’ve made in my career.

Per Platou 1:09:48
Exactly. What I love it I even made a career out of making to ask artists who to add to symposium series that was about failed artworks actually. And it was the most I had never had bigger success in my life because it first people were very reluctant to take part it was called reality check. And it was about failed art projects. And no one wanted to admit that their or their attempt was a failure. But then the first one happened. And then the second, and it was a kind of level of success. The second one was a big success, and everyone loved it. And even at number three, like a couple of months later, people started phoning me day and night because they wanted to be part of it. And I had to say, No, you’re not a failure. That’s not a failed artwork. But maybe it wasn’t very good. But this, yeah, but I’m a failure. I’m a failure. And they people started twisting this the show at this. It’s like a confession booth kind of show almost. And they started faking it making a song. So they the twist of it, it took the whole air out of the balloon. So it became failure. Yeah, the failure or the idea of failure. And in my opinion, you should flaunt it and make it a feature in a certain way. Oh, yeah. I

Matthew Dols 1:11:06
mean, I, I recently had a guest who was talking like she she worked as an intern at Christie’s. And then she later her career, she ended up working at Christie’s and I sat there and I’m like, okay, so your internship was literally like leading you to the path of your career. That’s magnificent. And then I reflected on my own internships when I was a kid. And like, all of my internships ended up being me trying something and realizing that I never want to work in that industry.

Per Platou 1:11:35
Right, right.

Matthew Dols 1:11:36
So like, I know, all kinds of stuff about what I don’t want to do. But boy, I’ve never figured out exactly what I do want to do.

Per Platou 1:11:43
But I think isn’t that equally important? Or even maybe more sometimes to know what you definitely don’t want to be? Or do? It is very important.

Matthew Dols 1:11:52
Yeah, absolutely.

Per Platou 1:11:53
That guy or that person in that car? Or? That’s not me, I don’t want to be like that. And then you, okay, no BMW here, you know, or whatever, I don’t want to be that guy.

Matthew Dols 1:12:05
I have a great story about that. I was, I was a roadie at the 930 Club and tricky was playing. And we all do all the crew dressed in drag that night for tricky. And it was magnificent. We ended up partying with him until like six in the morning. So we’re, we’re still in drag. And we walk out of this after hours club, and we were all sitting there, having done many, many drugs all night. And we’re looking at all these people walking around in business suits. And they’re all very sad. And they’d sort of look like drones just sort of like, they’re just going to their jobs. And we looked at each other. And we’re like, Yeah, but our job is to dress in drag, do a bunch of cocaine and party with rock stars. You know, I don’t want their life. But I want this life.

Per Platou 1:12:50
This is our role. And sometimes I say this part of the job, actually to dress in drag and take drugs, it’s actually part of our job. Because if we start as artists start wearing suits, and working nine to five, I think we’ve, we’ve ruined also, for other people, that character, we’ve kind of we didn’t fill the character. I think it’s a character, you have to play it. At least it was like that, for me when when I learned about Jay Morrison, or whoever it was artists to, well, some of them died too early. But this romantic kind of idea, it kind of meant so much to me, because I felt different. I think everyone, all teenagers in the world or in the Western world feel different, or feels like an outsider. But that’s so important. That’s an important thing. Now, what you don’t want to do, indeed. All right, well, that’s

Matthew Dols 1:13:40
a beautiful way to end this. So thank you very much for your time.

Per Platou 1:13:44
Thank you, Matt.

Matthew Dols 1:13:57
Okay, continuing on about arts funding in Scandinavian regions.

Per Platou 1:14:02
Yeah. Now, we’re lucky to have such a good system. And I noticed how, for instance, in the United States, where they have very few are almost non existent funding for artists, how that makes different art. So it’s not as easy for them to or that explains why they’re not so into, let’s say, avant garde art, as we are in Europe, and especially up here or middle corners of the art world. Because this is such a luxury, we can make things we get state funded, we can explore all these boundaries, and almost paid by the state to do so. While over there in the States. If you don’t get an audience, you make

Matthew Dols 1:14:46
nothing. What I’ve come to this is my perspective. This is my belief. Now I might be wrong in this. So tell me if I’m wrong. But I believe that it’s basically this in America. The idea is produce the artists produces a thing, they put it on display, either they get the audience or they get people buying it. And then they are able to reinvest that income and produce more. Whereas in Europe, it’s come up with a great idea. propose it to somebody, they fund the production of it so that by the time so the actual exhibition or presentation of it, it’s irrelevant if it’s sold, because it’s already been paid for.

Per Platou 1:15:25
Yeah, but that’s completely right. I’m trying to explain to my American friends, when we were discussing this, that I’m also selling something, indeed, I’m a sortable, I also have to make a living, of course, to get those grants. It’s not like it, just get it, you have to fight for it. Obviously, let’s say I get the funding, that’s half the work to get the funding, and then you actually have to produce it, you can do whatever you want, but you still have to, well, you’re paid in a different way. So to speak. Well, okay, wait, you

Matthew Dols 1:15:58
say you have to fight for it. Like how hard because like in America, oh, my God, we have to fight tooth and nail to get any amount of funding, much less substantial funding? So like, How hard is it really to get funding?

Per Platou 1:16:12
Well, I would say it’s not that hard, okay. But it’s because I’ve been lucky, maybe. And some people accuse me of being you know, opportunist in a certain way. I know the language I know, the phrases to use. And that’s the normal accusation that people would say you’re as smart as you know, the, the right phrases, and really good artists, he’s great at painting, but he can’t even write well. But that’s the trick. Like, that’s

Matthew Dols 1:16:37
the thing, like if you can, even in America, like if you can eloquently express your ideas, you will get curators and galleries and funding and residencies and all these other things, because it’s the the words that sort of are the application processes to get you in the doors for all these things. So like, it has less to do with skilled ability to make art and more with like knowing the right vernacular to be able to use the budwood buzzwords of the time in order to get that opportunity.

Per Platou 1:17:12
It’s partly true, actually, it is true to a certain extent. But it’s also very classical discussion, because or between the technical or let’s say, the skilled, like Rembrandt attitude versus the conceptual art attitude? Because you could say that the idea about an artwork is equally is maybe the basis of it, or maybe that’s the essence of it, or is it the actual execution, the actual painting or the photography? Or is it the concept where you end up with a black photography with a white.or? Whatever, you know,

Matthew Dols 1:17:47
well, you could ask Sala wit, I’m sure he would give you a good answer.

Per Platou 1:17:51
Yeah, I’m sure. But to hear the acceptance actually, in the system. And in lots of people’s minds that art is also some kind of it very closely, overlaps with philosophy in so many ways. I find that liberating and actually very good, because it also takes away those skills, the limits where it’s also so much kitsch, and so much bad taste and people who are very skilled, but make like very tacky commercials or very things that contain no juxtapositions in any of the layers or Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Maybe?

Matthew Dols 1:18:29
I do. I mean, and just to be clear, I want to be like, layout my position on this? I love the way Europe does it. I’m all about it. I wish that I had known that that was the difference between the two. Because if I had known that, I probably would have like, come and gotten my education in Europe, rather than in America, because that whole system, like I remember being a student, and looking at Europe, and there were these magnificent, absurd, great, crazy projects being done the what you would probably call avant garde, and we’re sitting there were like, That’s fucking amazing. Like, how did they fund that? Like, I mean, I can come up with these crazy, great, magnificent, huge, real colossal ideas. But in America, I can’t fund it, or there’s no place to exhibit it or nobody’s willing to exhibit it. Whereas in Europe, they’re all about the absurd extent to you pushing the boundaries and the limits of things in ways that in America, they never do, or very rarely do. And so I’m all about the way that Europe does it. And I wish that I had learned that, again, this goes back to like, I wish I had learned that when I was in my 20s so that I could have participated in it more effectively and better and earlier.

Per Platou 1:19:47
But for good and bad. I mean, the world changes and Europe has become more like the states and the States, the United States. The systems might not have changed so much but people’s attitudes towards the system has changed. I see the young generations of United States, especially along the coasts and in the big cities is changing. It’s more Bernie Sanders and more Europe in a certain way, social democracy as we are the welfare state in a certain way, while Europe is well as you know, turning kind of dark brown or black, you know, into fascism in certain countries and right wing. So that struggle, it’s not set for good. I mean, we have to, I think we really have to fight for it. But I think still, Europe is far more educated in that kind of in the way of thinking, I just hope it will prevail.

Matthew Dols 1:20:43
Alright, that’s a good place to end that.

Per Platou 1:20:45
Yeah, that’s a good place to cut.

Matthew Dols 1:20:53
As many of you know, I have a thing for the algorithm that rules our lives. But one thing I figured out you can do to help us is to give a star ratings or comments. So go to your device that you’re listening to this podcast through and click and give some sort of rating or a comment would be incredibly appreciated. It’s one of the few things that you can do that does not involve any sort of money or other efforts. It does just take a few seconds, and it would help us immensely.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com