Transcript for Episode 167 – Curator, Critic + Conceptual Artist, Lexa Peroutka (Czech Republic)

Recorded March 26, 2021
Published April 27, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/curator-critic-conceptual-artist-lexa-peroutka-czech-republic/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?

Lexa Peroutka 0:15
When I pronounced it Czech, it sounds slightly different. But often in English, Alexandra pero. That’s the name I usually pronounce. I can be also called Lexa. Because I myself when I work as an artist or an also, art critic, I usually use this name instead of the whole Alexander name. Maybe it’s difficult to use in Anglo Saxon environment, all as it as it is usually used in in Slavic languages or in tech environment. But my name includes it as well. pedaled

Matthew Dols 0:57
no problem. Alright. So the first thing I always love to know about people is sort of their background. So they How did you get to being creative? childhood? What were your parents creative? Was it some schooling, some life experience that brought you to the art,

Lexa Peroutka 1:14
it all started, definitely, with my childhood period. I was born in the mid 70s, during the communist era, when the Europe was divided into two blocks. And my parents, they lived outside the center, but they were able to conduct their life like what they expected from it. And my father, climber, my mother working in the into exile work. And I was maybe very early I was indoctrinated, or somehow influenced by my father’s ideas about the society. He has, as an as a climber, he did see himself as some sort of outsider, or the person who wanted to be outside social life, when, like an inquiry, he created this old ideas of his life based on his own climbing experience.

Matthew Dols 2:19
So just to be clear, you’re saying climbing like rock climbing, like mountain climbing? Right?

Lexa Peroutka 2:27
I think in our environment, we say also very flattering, you know, from German, for example, this kind of experience when climbing the rock meant for him, you know, to be very focused within this limited sphere of action, but to be absolute, and also be within your own individual environment. He did not feel to be part of the bigger society that was all around us. So that I think meant for me also to work with some sort of ideas very early on, that were not discussed in general, in, you know, in public and in mainstream media, in news. So that was, I think, the first cake in my life that was sending me forward something quite specific. And I think the physical production of our thesis was not the only thing that was very necessary. It was more like the the way of life from the beginning. And contemplating all the results and production itself, and then thinking how to deliver the message that was produced through this early on our production to the general public. I don’t know what to how to spell like specified, because I can say I was living when my parents were building a house, I have seen how the house is built, how much energy it includes, and how also how the society around us was changing. And then I tried to put all these ideas together. But when I was about 15 years old, Slovakia started to split and regime of the country was changed. So I started to adjust myself into the new reality. So and I think it follows me up until today, because I’m still working with this type of contextual situations or ideas based on geopolitical situations.

Matthew Dols 4:45
So leading up to what you do now. So the artwork that you are producing now in 2021, it is, I would, from my American perspective, keep in mind because you know, I’m a stupid American in the menu. Because that is what I would define is sort of conceptual work, or is it the what what, how would you define sort of the outputs that you create?

Lexa Peroutka 5:10
Yeah, I know the very beginning. But sometime in the 90s, I started to work very conceptual, have an idea and produce it exactly how it was defined and have a very clear idea what I’m working with and what the product I’m supposed to be. So, in my own case, it was very minimalist theory. At the time, I started to produce some like minimal architecture, that was also some sort of object of production. And it was very physical. And it was, in fact, only physical, it was not including any other like a social elements within it. I was not presenting it as such. So, it was conceptual from the somewhere midway, maybe until maybe 2000, or some, a few years after, when I definitely changed.

Matthew Dols 6:11
So what is it that you’re producing these days,

Lexa Peroutka 6:14
there are several projects I’m involved with, some of them are having fun characters, or they are going to be presented differently. Because one of the levels where I’m working, it’s also the curatorial work. For example, I’m preparing an exhibition of an artist for 35 square meters gallery here in Prague, that is going to be the first part of the program of this year after this lockdown, period. And as well as I am working on one bigger exhibition in nahata Gallery that’s on Czech Polish border, where I’m employed nowadays. And that is, we call in check like this is some sort of stone institution. It’s an old institution for 20 century older and contemporary art all together. In that situation, I am producing one exhibition for the next year, because or was postponed. And it’s an exhibition of an adult Chico, who is quite well known nowadays. But the reason why I’m working with it, it’s because she represents this kind of situation of today when Europe is redefined and spread along and other lines, and it’s part of her ideas that is present thing presenting as some sort of video are. So that’s my curatorial work. As I said, from the beginning, I see it as my own artists, almost, when I’m producing someone sells exhibition, as an artist, myself producing physical exhibitions of physical artworks, I’m preparing for the coming exhibition in Slovakia, in the place called morani. Where we working with environmental questions and, and people’s mobility. So I’m into production of physical capture, RPS, but that’s not going to be only physical,

Matthew Dols 8:28
From my background, I always come to the idea of an artist who is creating their own work, who also curates. And then you also, from what I understand you even an art critic as well, that I find that like, it’s a little hard to play sort of both sides of that because oftentimes, as an artist, you want to put your your friends or things that are of your own interest and to like try, you know, and as a curator, you want to try and be objective and all this good stuff. And so I feel sometimes I find that’s very difficult balance to ride, especially then also adding in being a critic as well. It’s like, is that easy for you?

Lexa Peroutka 9:07
It’s not an easy situation, but I found it, maybe the only way to in fact, to be as an artist to be interested in, in curatorial work and also to write the critique because I feel if you as an artist or you know, public person, if you have like these objectives that you working for the sum does not have to be exactly like public good. But thinking in general, then, you know, whatever you do in the product is always kind of responsible. So I do not see it very conflicting. I see other other moments that are much more conflicting than being in three or more positions together as an artist nowadays.

Matthew Dols 10:00
What are these other conflicting things?

Lexa Peroutka 10:03
The conflict thing, I think is when you work more like, as a manager, these are big questions. You know,

Matthew Dols 10:12
I like big questions,

Lexa Peroutka 10:13
in fact, is what I’m aiming for I like this kind of bigger asks and answers do it. And they are not always fair or not always finished. Because I see I see things in general, I’ve seen them three dimensional way, that’s probably because I feel myself more as a sculptor, Indian, everything attached to it, it has also this kind of space elements in it. And then it’s also the society, organism, you know, borders, what’s happening, you know, between the different sides of the of the society, hierarchy. And also limitations, what are you unable to do within the system? Are you living and were you participating? So, I think what I said, it’s, I see the difficulty somewhere else, the conflicting things, parts of the multi layer, artistic production, it’s more about the the private and the public, as I would say, what it means to be the, you know, what’s this public area, and what’s the private area, when you behaving on behalf of your individual interests, something else, and it’s in conflict with public interest, usually,

Matthew Dols 11:47
what’s interesting, because like, I come from the United States, I know I’m probably gonna keep saying this, but I say it a lot. But, and in, when I was being going through school, they they kept talking about, like, you make a product, you know, you make a piece of art, you put it out in the market, and you sell it, and then you take the income from that, and then you invest in making another piece of art. Now, from my experiences of living in Europe, it’s very different than that. So like, I guess your question is, is like, do you produce work that is meant to be sold? Or is selling even a concern for you? Do you do grants residencies? Like, how do you sort of fund all of this, if not, through sales?

Lexa Peroutka 12:30
Yes, the sales are part of it. But I think also, like, economics itself, has so many different ways, where it works, and where it creates our everyday situations, and enables us to produce or not to produce, or be or not to be what we really are. And there are so many ways you can make things happen. And I usually aim for the final thing, when I when I have an idea, I want this to happen, there is probably no straight way to get there. So you have to find other ways, step by step, to get to that situation when the product is here. And it does not have to be the product for sale. It could be but you know, it’s also part of discussion of race are seen? Does it have to be so? Do you have to produce products? Or what are you producing? It’s, it’s a big question itself. And I don’t think I have some quick answer to that. It’s polarizing, or I know what, what the right word is.

Matthew Dols 13:42
But you’re welcome to have a long answer to it. Because I mean, this is the thing. So again, in America, when I was raised, we were taught, you know, make a series of works, put it on exhibition, sell it and all this kind of stuff. I now live in Europe, and I live in Prague, and I have been noticing a lot that it seems like Now tell me if I’m wrong on this. That it’s sort of like a lot of the arts support the arts funding the whatever’s is the artists are the creative people coming up with really amazing ideas, writing them out. So grants residencies, other kinds of things, even proposals for for exhibitions and and then getting those projects funded. So therefore, in the end, a sale is not even necessary, because the process of producing it was already basically paid for. Is that right? Yes, that’s right. That’s amazing.

Lexa Peroutka 14:39
But there are other aspects to it. In a way when thinking about your artistic freedom, or your independence, or, you know, you don’t have to be an avant garde artist, but there is always some liberties question. So when it’s funded, it’s usually funded for some reason by other institution. higher up European institutions. And they also focused on, you know, certain production, they want to have it, they want to have it deliver. So you are part of the process in that situation if it’s funded this way, but I think every other fund being similar, and you have to know what you gaining, or what you part of, and once you do it, you agree with it. So it’s also like European Union’s policies to expand and connect places and connect people connect organizations, and also connect organizations that are kind of grassroots, for example. And that’s quite weird situation to like, when someone is grassroots, they do not usually operate beyond some, you know, beyond their own environment. But suddenly, they become part of this bigger project of Europe.

Matthew Dols 16:00
So you see that as a as a problem?

Lexa Peroutka 16:03
Yes, I see it as a problem. I mean, from the position of an individual artist, when participating in it, you have to know what it is all about. What its own aim is, and you know, and decide on your own and not take it only as granted, this is where the money comes from. We need the money. So we spend the money. I think it’s very nice. And it’s been criticized. Quite, you know, I think, from maybe 2004 or five, it was visible and publicly investigated by, for example, Maria Lin, or, and others who criticize the process of financing the art scene of Europe, because they’ve they’ve seen it as very political itself, this financial system here.

Matthew Dols 16:59
It is absolutely political. There’s no question about that. But to a certain extent, even in the, you know, traditional American style, like art market, that’s equally political subdivision. It’s, it’s the differences is like government political versus like, social political.

Lexa Peroutka 17:19
Right? Yes, yes. So I mean, I just feel that you will have to go through all of that all like, you know, process all these aspects of your participation. When you receiving funding, then you decide individually or in group as how you’re working. And, of course, that’s what you see nowadays, here to like, the contemporary art scene, in Czech Republic is quite divided about this subject, you know, who is going to fund your project, these individuals or governmental institutions? Are they fair in what they are doing? What they are dealing with? What they are one thing where the money comes from? What’s the origin of it? The good money or the bad money? Does it come from financial executions or whatever, you know, it’s contemporary discussion.

Matthew Dols 18:16
This is the first I’ve ever heard of this. So like, please educate me a bit more on this. So like, specifically, like okay, in the United States, where I grew up outside of Washington, DC, and we we had these like bad money funders, which was Philip Morris, which is a cigarette company. So they they funded a lot of art projects, but they killed millions of people to get that money by producing cigarettes. So like, here in the Czech Republic, what do you what are you defining as like good money, bad money?

Lexa Peroutka 18:47
Well, it’s depends on I think there are different artists roofing differently or different mostly groups of artists, because this is more like the group’s opinion. And I think every one of us is is identified within certain circles here. The circle even is kind of an open circle. It’s representing you too. I don’t want to name anyone but I think within our system, everyone knows who is I don’t not know myself the details, but in general, there is the money that comes from mining business for example, like Ostrava, most these areas that are like having lasting damage, there is the money as I mentioned before coming from these new economies of executions on people’s properties. There are many individuals here who are financing the contemporary art scene and having influence here.

Matthew Dols 19:54
Okay, what about some good money places that because like for instance, just before you get to far end of this, this podcast actually is funded by the EEA grants from Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland. So that is that a good one?

Lexa Peroutka 20:10
Well, I can’t tell you like straight away. But of course, I myself feel part of the European project. So I’m feel like when I finance from that direction, I’m fine with that. But I have also right, to ask my own questions where we are heading and how it is organized. So well, my finger that’s good money. Were you aware all of it, of all other processes around it, then? decision making?

Matthew Dols 20:36
Now? No, not a lot? No. I just put in the application. And they accepted it. So like it? I’m great. I mean, I love my heritage is actually from the Scandinavian region. So like, I’m good with getting supported by like, basically, my, my family?

Lexa Peroutka 20:57
Yes, yes, yes. But, you know, in my individual case, because I am also part of my family living in Scandinavia, or in Sweden, and I have been living there myself. So because everything looks so perfect, in many ways, and process properly and democratic. Once you see something that does not fit that objective, then you have doubts. And it’s very normal for the Scandinavian person to think about both sides of the, you know, what’s good, what better, what’s better with, and sometimes it’s completely mixed up, and you can’t do anything about that. It’s like, his authentic situation.

Matthew Dols 21:42
The world like it’s the TV show, what is it the good place like that? Have you ever seen this TV show The Good Place, it’s a great show, I highly recommend it fabulous show. But at the end of it there, basically, it comes down to like, no matter what you do in life, if you try to do everything perfectly, where there’s like, no damage to the environment, no, supporting of, you know, taking people’s homes, whatever, you know, some of the examples that you gave, then there’s almost nothing left for you in life, like, almost everything trickles down to something bad, like, I can go buy farm raised chickens, you know, you know, holistically, pretty, you know, fed and given lots of land and all that. And then but in the end, it’s going to be packaged in plastic. And then so therefore, there, I’ve screwed that all up. So there’s, there’s almost no, no chain of events that you can ever do in your entire life, where you’ll have no negative impacts on something.

Lexa Peroutka 22:43
Sad, I definitely agree. But, you know, like, I think as everyone nowadays feels a little bit political, I mean, like, be part of the social environment and an active part. So you also, like a judge your own individual participation within it. And then maybe differently, or, you know, try to modify it. And it’s a part of our everyday decision making. I would say, if we do not even think that this is happening, I think that’s completely wrong. And also, especially as an artist, you more like open into, like different daily situations that and you have to deal with them individually. And besides. So you, you kind of active participant of the, like, different social processes here. It’s also then we come to ethics. No, that’s an ethical question all of it.

Matthew Dols 23:50
It is a great ethical question, because so like, it leads me to think like, so let’s say there’s a museum exhibition that is supported by some horrible funder. Let’s take Philip Morris, because I everybody agrees cigarettes are bad. So Philip Morris supports this exhibition. Does that make the exhibition less worthy? Does that make the art that’s been that has been commissioned less worthy? Like, does it somehow taint? Like, does it affect how you as a viewer sees the exhibition? Because it was funded that way? And it does, does even does that trickle down to I don’t like losing respect for that artists who participate in these things.

Lexa Peroutka 24:37
In fact, that depends, in fact, if you speak about artists, I think in that perspective, there is no way to judge it within some sort of ethics. But when you speak about a public person, activity, culture management, curators, and all those other activities And some of them are also involving artists, or artists are in management position, then yes. But I think in general, when speaking about art, you know what art is? The quality of it, I don’t think that judgment can come from this direction. You know, when the result is here, you have an art related or our project done art piece, then you judge the thing individually. And I think you don’t have to have it. All those processes around it? I don’t see it.

Matthew Dols 25:45
I’m asking, I’m not telling. Like, to me, I’m not. I’m not as involved, let’s say, with the kind of the ethics that go behind the arts and stuff like that, as obviously, you are. So I’m sort of asking like, basically, should I be? And should anybody like should the listeners to this be more involved in those ethical choices of like, who to ask funding from and who to seek support from?

Lexa Peroutka 26:17
Yes, but I think that I would like to separate this little bit from the final product. Art is what what’s the role of art today, and from all other processes around it, including curatorial work, you know, management that works with art, there, I think you should have some judgment, you there, you can apply your critique, but the individual art piece, I think, there are no tools to judge accordingly, the type of general ethics.

Matthew Dols 26:53
But what if I’m an artist, and I have a piece and somebody, let’s say, who was the CEO, or the president of one of these horrible companies just wants to buy it? Like, should I sell it to them?

Lexa Peroutka 27:07
Now, but as I said, it’s your individual choice. And I think it is going to be seen as such by others. Also, by acting within the art scene, what do you do with your own production is seen by others and is judged by others, and, you know, everything evolves around it, but it does not change the the general what you call it does not change the quality of, of the piece itself.

Matthew Dols 27:36
Like, I’ll give you a good example, Exxon oil company, horrible polluters, horrible in many ways ecologically throughout the world for short. Nobody questions that. But they have an amazing art collection. So if I were to get one of my pieces in their art collection, and then put on my CV, that I have a piece in the Exxon Mobil art collection. Like, should that be something that we’re that we as part of the arts community are like, Oh, you shouldn’t do that?

Lexa Peroutka 28:13
No, I can’t tell. You should not do that. in this situation. I don’t think it should be question. questionable, criticize, but that can’t be forbidden. You just, it’s part of your freedom, when you produce it, and how you know, the whole management around your own production. Documents come after you. From my own site, how I see it, I definitely see it as a separate thing. What do you produce? What is your aim? Why are you doing but we have the piece in the end, right here. It’s something it includes all these social elements around it, how it was produced, how it was financed, your individual input, you know, your direction, how are you thinking how you’re living? And that’s it. But no one can tell you you’re not allowed to produce it. If you are able to produce it and sell it the way you want to sell it. It’s your whole persona in it. It’s you know, I don’t think we we are allowed within the rule of law we, we kind of do what we can do, and sometimes even crossing the law because, you know, it’s still that type of freedom we are speaking about

Matthew Dols 29:34
when producing art. All right, another topic that I’m fascinated with that I have never spoken about but I’ve heard lots about is like artists fees for exhibitions. Is this something that you know much about are you involved in it both in the the artist artistic side, as well as the curatorial side?

Lexa Peroutka 29:54
Well, I think it was not, I think from like, let’s say 1015 years ago, it was not present here, everyone was producing whatever able to produce, and for the exhibition places, whatever not receiving fees or anything, but I think in nowadays situation should be some sort of standard of dealing artists in other space and how to finance the art, I kind of the first step, to support the artist and to its certain value within the system, where we live in today. If it’s based only on that he will find he she will, will find other ways of production because he is more capable of the finances of it, it’s too much limiting, we should have some sort of the ground level or kind of level where we start, and it should be some basic financing of what do you call this our production. It’s not the market itself yet. But this is one element very important today. Otherwise, our production becomes just, it’s not our freedom, but it’s just freedom of a few who have the capacity, the financial capacity economic to do that, oh, I

Matthew Dols 31:15
absolutely love the idea of artists fees, I’ve always had a pet peeve where like, basically, galleries have exhibitions where they sell my artwork, but like, I’m the one that put all the invested all the time and the money and the energy and the education into producing this piece of art. And I and then they can exhibit it, and then they can even get press from it, people could come and see it now maybe they don’t somebody doesn’t buy it at that exhibition or that gallery. But I should get paid just for like my time and effort to put it you know, take it from my studio, put it in a crate or a shipment thing, ship it there or, or at no point getting a truck and delivering it there, whatever I need to do, because that’s time and money that I’m taking out of my life to be involved in those exhibitions for literally no money and just the hope and a prayer that somebody might buy something. So the idea of having sort of a stipend, even for an artist fee that just makes it so like, okay, you’re gonna participate in this, and we’ll pay for your time and your energy to participate, I think is a fabulous idea.

Lexa Peroutka 32:26
Yes, definitely agree with me that this is I think this kind of level up the world, this is the basics that supposed to be functional, and not only like dreaming about it, having somewhere on somewhere not it should be some sort of standard of the day, you cannot value like something within economical system of the day, you will have to value this individual artistic input in this situation. as anything else you cannot talk. I don’t know what to say you cannot bring this as a voluntary situation where you do things without measuring financial, you know, the financial situation, your own input your investments, once it is exhibited. One it is playing its own role within what I call social environment, it should be paid for. I mean, it’s not the commercial price, but it’s a price just to start with. Well, it

Matthew Dols 33:29
sounds to me like you’re very critical of the existing art market structure. I use the word market very loosely on that. So institutions sales, whatever. It sounds like you think it’s it’s not working successfully for the specifically sort of for the artists these days. Am I right in that sort of insight?

Lexa Peroutka 33:54
Yes, yes, you are. Yes.

Matthew Dols 33:56
Okay. Then help me out. I want to know, you think it’s slightly broken, which I in many ways I agree with what would be some ways that you might think that the entire industry could be changed to be more supportive, beneficial, whatever word you want to put to

Lexa Peroutka 34:13
it is hard to say because I for a long period of time, it was all dependent on this individual players within what it called our management system. The state institutions were left behind and they are in so many places and still running, having quite good finances, but still not fully understanding what’s happening around. So I think first I feel this structural parts of this art management that are already in place this they should catch up with the situation and understand what’s happening, what’s the running or the actual problems are, but I feel in many cases they are just leaping or just awakening Little bit, but that’s all, and be all dependent on private investors and, you know, private galleries, as it was for some for quite long period, while the state run institutions were still in place, not fully understanding the contemporary. I think there is some, like, long term misunderstanding, but I feel in some cases, it’s catching up slowly.

Matthew Dols 35:30
Okay, wait, I want to dig down a little bit into that. So you brought up the institutions versus galleries like to you so I have my perspective being from America, but for you as a European as specifically as a Czech, what’s your What do you believe the role of a gallery is very in comparison to the role of an institution?

Lexa Peroutka 35:53
Well, here is often in our environment, it’s historically quite mixed, because these galleries are these usually bigger institution within almost everywhere in the regions here as well. They all have the established to preserve art, investigate, research, focus on contemporary art production, you know, they have so many layers, and it’s part of the system for very long, but they are not fulfilling all the tasks, but they are participating. And I think it’s part of our understanding of culture as well, in general, like, we support this institution in us from, you know, it’s finance, by our taxes. And it’s meant to be for the general public to, you know, its investment towards the future, and the supposed to play the role, you know, what they are meant to. So I think it’s part of the fabric, I, you know, it’s part of the history, it’s here. But I would like to see it functional. I know the private sphere, I agree. It’s a real competitor. But there is also a third element, you know, there is a gallery in discover I’m one of the curators is focused on young, unknown artists, progressives, whatever you can call it, it. But it’s not commercial institution is just finance for its own being. There is no capital, you know, being saved. And that’s called 35 meters square. Right? Right. Yes. So it’s another type of institutions. And there are maybe more than this, I mean, more types than this screen that I announced. But they are all competing with each other is good, I think that this is happening, of course, they have to compete. It has to be progressive, seen. But on behalf of regional or state run, agencies, institutions, you know, today work in very long term. And they have no deposits collections. They have researchers, they’re people employed who are educated this way. But still, I think they do not fulfill this public. But he called the tasks that are they are employed for?

Matthew Dols 38:29
Well, I mean, that’s an interesting dilemma that institutions have because on the one hand, the institutions should be the winner. Okay, I should rephrase this. In my, from my perspective, institutions are the arbiters of quality and or good taste, saying like this artist, or this artistic movement, is worthy of the public’s pray, appreciation and whatever else. So on one hand, they they should be sort of setting the standard for what and who is quality work, but on the other hand, they all still need to keep their doors open and pay their bills. And so they do have to pander a little bit to the public and say, Okay, fine. We think that this exhibition of this, you know, avant garde thing is amazing. But fine, we’ll put up a Picasso exhibition just to get you in the door.

Lexa Peroutka 39:24
Yes, but I think this is still sort of under construction, the situation of these state funded institutions, because it’s not fixed idea, what are they supposed to serve, who they’re supposed to serve? And but of course, in an ideal case, they’re supposed to be serving almost everyone. But what’s the ideal way what people can’t produce? What does the general public once you have to bring them back? Of course, the quality, the quality is what it is.

Matthew Dols 39:59
Well, Quality is subjective also.

Lexa Peroutka 40:03
Yes, yes. But I mean, in this case is you have to find some sort of general, like some objective quality. I mean, mostly, what we talking about, I think is more the process, how things are happening out there process of they are discussed. And that’s, I think what you’re supposed to bring to the general public to be aware of it, it does not have to be something that they, like, individually like, but more something like with upgrade their own individual skills, or, you know, knowledge of the world study, the cultural,

Matthew Dols 40:41
I understand what you’re saying, but if you it’s a fine line, because if you push it too far, so let’s say you go really sort of outrageous kind of artworks for your as an institution to exhibit, nobody’s going to come in, and nobody comes in funding gets caught, you know, uh, you know, they just don’t have ticket sales, they don’t have whatever, you know, however else, they get their income, which is generally based on attendance. So you can’t go so far that there’s that the thing is uninteresting to the public. So there’s a need to be this balance of somewhat interesting to the public, but somewhat pushing them but not too far, but also not swinging the other way and pandering to like, the lowest common denominator also.

Lexa Peroutka 41:26
Yes, yes, it’s right. But from my own experiences, or from what I have seen, it’s not, for example, touching so much of the coming generations, the younger generations, they’re a bit left behind, because what is presented to them something like they’re supposed to, they’re supposed to be preserved here. And it’s not meant to be a process when things are sort of produced, and they are part of it, you know, because they have these skills for the future, I feel they’re being left behind. Definitely, you have to balance it out, you have to touch like different parts of the society. And then the results you will see, but first, you have to try to experiment, you can’t be just fixed on a few ideas that, you know, nowadays, society is not even interested into because they’re outdated.

Matthew Dols 42:24
Well, that’s an ongoing problem with lots of institutions, basically, their their patrons are dying, and there are not younger patrons coming into either financially support or corporately support or whatever, these these institutions to continue their their operations. So like, what what In your opinion, like what could be done, to try to engage that younger demographic, in what is traditionally something for an older demographic,

Lexa Peroutka 42:55
I think you have to first you have to start discussion, like, within the institution, to, you know, to, with this type of aim, to get to you ideas, the ideas that are already in public, process them, trying to find some sort of compromise to give it, you have the space, you have tools, thus, make it happen, and start discussions, you know, before the production process, or all of it is what kind of production, I think you have to do just a few steps before you can touch results. But what we have nowadays, maybe more like different generations struggling with each other. Because you have a position, you keep possession, and you leave so many behind. It’s not because they are state run only. I think it’s in general. This is the situation today, when everyone is competing with everyone. And this also depends on your age, and the parents are competing with the children, and etc. But still, you can try you can experiment, and I think these platforms, state run institutions have the capacity to try and see what happens. If they don’t do that. I think it’s just waste of finances, time, anything.

Matthew Dols 44:27
What is it part of like, just I know, this is gonna sound really horrible, but like is being a patron of the arts, you know, so like supporting the arts in some way. Simply something that comes with age, because like, I think back to my own childhood versus now I’m 47 years old. Like I’ve been when I was young, I hated jazz music, and I’ve grown to appreciate it. When I was young. I hated classical music, and I’ve grown to appreciate it. You know, like I know people that like hated the Opera when they were young, and by the time they were like 50, they suddenly were absolute advocates and in love with opera. So like, does it? Is it being a patron or a supporter of the arts? Is that simply something that comes with maturity and age?

Lexa Peroutka 45:17
It’s hard to say, but of course, it is economical as well. When you build your own environment around you, when you aging, you know, it’s also financial process. And then you able more to influence you have more chances to make things happen. But you’re less like, experimental, of course. But when we speak about these institutions, I think, as we understand it nowadays, is supposed to be like, there should not be this divide of generations. But it’s, it’s hard to imagine that this is for us, for some of us. Depends on Ah, no, I think it should be it should try. What is it some function question, you know, try different ways and then find, then make some judgments and do continue? I think it’s it is its own role. If its individual business, I can’t change what the other one is aiming for. But this should be in in the interest of, of the general public?

Matthew Dols 46:29
Well, I guess that then lends to the question of like, what is the result like it? What’s the utopian perfect world? For The Arts?

Lexa Peroutka 46:42
Oh, it’s, that’s the topic. I think that in my own eyes, it the AutoPay and means it’s going to discuss things that are really contemporary, and that it’s not just about generations, it’s everyone’s problem. We dealing with something, what’s happening today, how it’s happening, how its present, how it’s discussed what language we’re using, there are so many questions, and we feel involved with that. But when institutions were supposed to process it, or give it some forum, and they are not doing it, I think that’s the wrong situation.

Matthew Dols 47:27
But you can’t you can’t say they’re not doing it because you work as a curator. So like, you’re not doing it.

Lexa Peroutka 47:35
Yes, yes. But it’s sometimes it’s good to kind of bit overdrive it, because it’s having some shape. And it’s not really not coherent, but you know, it’s that you do not see the trajectory, you don’t not see the way is heading, you see different ways. Everyone is trying differently. If it’s trying, not everyone is trying. I do want to see some bigger aims not just to keep running, one not knowing why you’re running.

Matthew Dols 48:10
Well, I mean, like, because there are things out there like okay, so like, let’s take, there’s social media, okay, so social media, like was said, like, Oh, it’s great. It’s democratizing the arts, because it’s, it’s, the, the masses are saying something’s good, because it gets lots of followers or lots of likes, or whatever, on social media, which it started to sort of interfere almost with the sort of arbiters of good taste the the curators, the gallerist, the people that made the traditionally made the decisions of saying, This artist is worthy to be in the cannon or to be part of this movement or whatever. And so like, there’s this issue of like, what is the current role of like art criticism and art curation, when the internet and social media has such a powerful influence?

Lexa Peroutka 49:05
Yes, but I think is the whole world like that is defined by these elements of like Internet, shared information, and idea so with how they were micro 1015 years ago, how they are today, and they play important part of it. So we are always there is some sort of competition. And also with this media that we are dealing daily today, and especially when it comes to visual art production. That is the main competitor today.

Matthew Dols 49:43
There is an incredible sheer volume of work being produced on social media like and it’s not necessarily like finished paintings or finished projects or whatever. But it’s the process the behind the scene videos that all this stuff like there’s this Incredible increase in the speed of the sheer volume of work that’s being produced. Because at any given moment, I can pick up any social media platform and see a million different things that call themselves art. But is there still a place for critics and curators and everybody else to be those sort of gatekeepers to put them to elevate these people from enjoyed by the masses to part of the art historical canon?

Lexa Peroutka 50:32
Yeah, of course, that is the role because it’s like any other public person’s role, then when you criticize are nowadays. And of course, then you get your own public, people understand you or not understand you follow you not follow you, is the same system. And of course, it’s based on some sort of on some level of knowledge. And it’s not only popularity, but I think we have some system around us. And we do not even know what the system is by no. And of course, it has its own hierarchy. Well, I think that there’s definitely a place for art criticism, and related to work. But we have to identify where we are, where we are standing. And what the for the system itself is. Because in this liberal world, everything seems possible. Everything is kind of you can aim for anything you like. But then suddenly, you realize there is some structure holding all of us together. I think it’s worth at least to try to identify it first. And then you will find that there is concrete position, where are you standing.

Matthew Dols 51:50
It’s a difficult balance the whole thing of the curator, the role of curators because they have been the gatekeepers for the arts industry for so long, and they have become sort of the arbiters of good taste. But there’s more curators because now it’s not just institutional curators, but they’re now independent curators, and they’re curators, they’re just work for market galleries, commercial galleries. So like, their the sheer volume of curators, to a certain extent has like watered down the the elitist status of a curator.

Lexa Peroutka 52:28
Well, maybe. But I think it also allows you as an individual curator, in this case, to behave differently or be focused differently, and act also in situations that where you might not be, you know, it is expansion process for you, as well. As a curator, you have to adapt in these situations, you cannot just keep, you know, framing everything, limiting everything, but you have to adapt yourself into the new reality. And that’s part of your needs, you have to do that. Alright,

Matthew Dols 53:14
so let’s, I’ve got two last questions that I generally end all my podcast with, which is, do you have three artists or curators or anybody that you admire in the arts industry that you think should be getting more attention?

Lexa Peroutka 53:29
Yes, I’m my sub, because I’m moving from one area to the other. When it comes to I thought, this is a man I’m more involved with what he called geopolitics and geography itself and things like that. So there are quite many authors that come to my mind when thinking about the importance of the work, but not all of them are artists. And of course, when in order to answer this question, I will easily answer it. You know, when speaking about exhibitions, I have produced artists I am planning to exhibit. So for example, there is one young artist from Finland who is living in Prague nowadays, your vice Nn. And why I have chosen him. I can’t say what his future is within the art scene, but I can see is working with very contemporary ideas of identity and borders and and also online identity. When recommending artists, I would first maybe focus on some sort of progressive ideas and artists who are working with them. I can’t say the future is like that. But that’s what it is today. And even is one of them. Another one I can say it’s also from Swedish environment, young artists. She names herself EDA, EDA, EDA. She’s including diverse social elements within mechanical sculpture, art production. And that’s another one, I would like to see the future where she heading, but she’s actually successful now, at least in Sweden. And another artist is, for example, MC Akash, who is an architect, and he’s just graduating at the Bronx Academy. Here. He is building architecture that includes mistakes in traditional architecture, planning. So that’s another element that I’m frequently thinking about about urbanism and architecture, how it is speaking about our general society. And in this case, Victor Kakashi, is one of them. What he is going to do in coming years, I can’t say, maybe you’re going to become more of an architect than an artist, I don’t know. But now he is somewhere in between. and there is maybe one more artists if I can mention someone.

Matthew Dols 56:20
Certainly, yeah, go right ahead.

Lexa Peroutka 56:23
So Victor marks, but he comes also from Scandinavia, and are from Stockholm, and other architects, but an artist as well, will try to build independent exhibition spaces within this quite rigid Swedish gallery system, where it’s like functional system, but there are certain elements of contemporary art that you cannot exhibit there, or they can’t kind of, they do not give you the right space. So Victor Marx, started to build some sort of independent platforms for others to participate. And he’s an artist, and architect as well. I would like maybe I have one person that I am an artist, originally from Thailand, but living in Stockholm, as non cramp, and we’ll call that I presently cooperate with, it’s not my business to make her popular, but I’m working with her because she’s frequently bringing completely different ideas that I have no, like, European, what do you call it is not part of the European cultural history. But she can quickly bring, like the vision, how to participate in an art project, and its visual character based on very different traditions from Southeast Asia. So she is another artist, I’m, I feel it’s worth to look at. If I can add one more thing, I just don’t want to make it more complicated for you to listen to, but because I’m looking in other areas, like anthropologist or geography, and there is, for example, an author that I am frequently mentioning, or, or kind of relating my own ideas to his own vision of of geopolitics is functie, Vinny charcoal, originally typed academic, who is nowadays I think, in America, in fact, but I’m not sure in what sphere he is there. But he processed what he called time, geopolitical history of the 19th century and the 20th century, and created some, let’s say, general ideas that you can we can apply in our European environment or elsewhere, because they are kind of so you know, how the borders are created based on technologies and identities in place. And he found some term that he calls God. And this geoboard A means several things together. It’s kind of based on location, culture. People are living their physical people, their emotions, know all these things together, create this new like a subject that acts itself in contemporary world. Just one more but he’s not an artist, but I would like to see him within the art discussion.

Matthew Dols 59:58
Fabulous or Okay, last question would be any advice for the next generation something that maybe you as part of the institution and curating sort of left notice that a lot of the younger are not doing as well as they possibly could.

Lexa Peroutka 1:00:19
I think there is no general recommendation on how to be an artist how to sustain your artistic activity throughout your individual lives. But, for example, my my professor, who is already died here in Prague, Alex Wessely, I remember when we were attending his monumental studio, he was speaking about, like, long distance run, that the process is like taking you all, and he wanted us to be prepared for the future, like, kind of taking it as it is, because it’s not just one event, or two events, two years event five years even.

Matthew Dols 1:01:03
But this is it. It’s a marathon.

Lexa Peroutka 1:01:06
Yes, it’s a marathon. And I think that’s the only thing to be prepared for, when you decide to become part of the art scene. When you planning for that, and it’s not a game. It’s deadly

Matthew Dols 1:01:22
serious. Or let’s hope it’s not deadly serious, but it’s professionally serious.

Lexa Peroutka 1:01:28
Yeah, I mean, just I want to bid upgrade the seriously data, it’s taking you all and I think we all aiming to be quite media developing as a society more towards like different forms of criticism. And there is nothing to be taken as a completely granted, everything has to be processed. And question. This is another condition necessary to be, I think part of the future are seen as be like, have this kind of your individual critical position and be part of the general discussion, not not be just, you know, you’re not only the producer, but you also the manager, and you are different. You have many different roles into the future. So another thing to be prepared for

Matthew Dols 1:02:28
marvelous. All right. Well, thank you very much for taking the time.

Lexa Peroutka 1:02:33
Yes, thank you. Thank you

Matthew Dols 1:02:37
for listening all the way to the end. Now, of course, I have to ask you a favor. As you all know, I have a great disdain for the algorithm, the rules our lives, but it’s a fact of our life. And what I need from you is I need you to give us a review, they could be star, it could be a comment, you know that you appreciate the guests you appreciate learning, whatever it is, generally I prefer positive reviews, but you know, whatever. So the reason is, is because that is the one and only way that that the algorithm can arrange and sort of organize better podcasts over lesser good podcasts. So the quantity and the frequency of reviews and ratings is one thing that we can control. So I’m asking you all to please do this because that is something you can do to be supportive and helpful to the podcast. So thank you.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com