Transcript for Episode 164 – Co-founders of Assembly, Ashlyn Davis Burns + Shane Lavalette (USA)

Recorded March 17, 2021
Published April 15, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/co-founders-of-assembly-ashlyn-davis-burns-shane-lavalette-usa/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?

Shane Lavalette 0:14
Let’s see. I’ll start I’m, I’m Shane lavalette

Ashlyn Davis Burns 0:18
and I’m Ashlyn Davis burns.

Matthew Dols 0:22
Now, Ashland, do you go by Ashland Davis or just Ashlynn? Okay, lovely. My first question that I always want to know about creative people and people in the creative industries, of course, is sort of how did they get made? So, childhood parents, like what was the thing that sort of led you down the path of going into the creative industries? We’ll start with you Ashlyn?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 0:45
Yeah, so I’m from a little oil town in East Texas, adjacent to a little oil town, it’s called niederlande. It’s near Port Arthur, Texas, and my family are like, many, many generations in East Texas, I was the first in my family to go to college. So like art college was totally beyond my parent’s comprehension. But I ended up going to Pratt and I got my BA in art history there. But I, I started out studying photography. And that’s something that I kind of came to love. During high school, we had an amazing darkroom photo program at my public high school. And that’s really like, where my love for photography developed. So after Pratt, I ended up doing the work Scholar Program at aperture. And then did kind of a, an interesting three years stint working for Penguin Books, and Viking in New York in their advertising department, which is still kind of one of my favorite jobs, and decided during my time there that I really wanted to go back to grad school and focus on the history of photography. So I moved back to Texas, I ended up going to the University of Texas at Austin and was in their American Studies PhD program. And that’s where I, you know, really solidified kind of my, my interest in inquiry from an art historical perspective into the history of photography, and really focused on American photography, and in particular, the American South. At the same time, you know, academia is still in this kind of really interesting, difficult state of flux, especially in the States. And I realized, like, I just, I didn’t want to go through with the PhD. So the nice way that they say it is you master out, so I got my master’s, and ended up immediately getting a job at Houston center for photography as their development director, which coincidentally is where I did my first internship ever as an 18 year olds, and within 10 months as their development director was asked to be their executive director. And so that’s where I spent the last five years and transitioned out of that role last fall. So that’s kind of like, in a really quick nutshell, my background, but there’s lots of twists and turns in between all of those different transitions.

Matthew Dols 3:20
And Shane,

Shane Lavalette 3:21
yeah, sure, actually, Ashton, I seem to share developing a love of photography. In high school, I also I went to a public school in Vermont, where I grew up near Burlington town called Essex. And I had an amazing photography teacher and a black and white darkroom. And, you know, that’s where I kind of fell in love with it, or, I think just sort of started seeing and appreciating it as a potential art form to work with. And so that sparked my interest in learning about photography as a photographer as an artist. And I ended up moving to Boston, where I went to the school of the Museum of Fine Arts and Crafts. And that was where I studied photography. That was where I continued to explore my own practice and interest as a photographer. And actually, let’s see, maybe a year after graduating, maybe two years after undergrad, I had an amazing opportunity arise to work on a commission with the high Museum of Art in Atlanta. I guess that was 2010. And so I spent about a year a little bit more working on this commission for their picture in the south series, which included a amazing group of photographers prior to me, and at this point in my career, being a young artist, it was it was career changing. It was life changing. And I was able to work on this project, at a scale and for a museum in a way that I think helped launch my work and my practice and, ultimately is what led me to getting involved at least more formally and working within institutions. I ended up doing a residency in 2011 at lightwork. A nonprofit The photography center in Syracuse, New York. And that was where I, you know, scanned a lot of that film for the high museum commission, during a month long residency was just extremely productive, and connected to this amazing community. And this this organization that directly supports artists that has a history of, you know, since the 70s, of, you know, through the residency through exhibitions, through grants, and through this lab facility, a community space, working with and supporting artists and photographers. And, yeah, I think I had this was sort of unexpected, I was doing independent curating, I was doing publishing and working in these capacities freelance, and, you know, job opening was, was open at the time, I applied for the position of associate director, and ended up getting the job and moving from Boston to Syracuse, New York, to work in that capacity. And then I guess it was maybe two or three years later, the director left and so I slid into that role. And so since 2011, I’ve been working in a leadership capacity within a nonprofit, which is not dissimilar to Houston center for photography, in many ways, is similarities in terms of history and programming, that type of thing. And then yeah, I guess that brings us to where we are now. And ash and I both departing our roles from these, you know, amazing institutions that exist in the photography world to start a new venture and a new platform to support artists,

Matthew Dols 6:27
right, which is why you’re really here you have created this thing called assembly dot art. Which First of all, the first question that I’m sure people ask you all the time, why is it called assembly?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 6:40
There were so many conversations about the name. And Shane and I have a long list of names that we kind of banged our head against that ultimately, I you know, I think the idea of assembly to assemble really captures the spirit of what we’re doing, you know, we we kind of think of ourselves as this hybrid platform that is based really around collaboration and bringing artists together along with institutions and publishers and collectors, and other collaborators. So this again, this idea of assembling and bringing together, these different components of an artist practice was ultimately at the core of, of what we wanted to build.

Matthew Dols 7:25
Alright, I’m a little bit older than both of you all, I’m assuming I’m 47. So you will seem much younger than me by far. I love this idea of basically what I what I read, when I see this and what I from what I understand and from other people I’ve had on the podcast, it feels to me like it’s a more or less like a talent agency for visual artists. And I seems mix media video and sound. But so we’ll wrap that all at our visual artists is that more or less sort of like the the business model of what you’ve created,

Shane Lavalette 7:58
we tend to describe it as bringing together elements of a gallery, an agency and a creative studio in one. So our vision is really this hybrid platform that exists to support artists, both on the fine art side of their practice and working with collectors and working with institutions to place their work within collections and develop opportunities within the art world, as well as many of the artists that maintain I guess, you could call it commercial or conditions practice of working with magazines or working with brands and working on Creative campaigns or site specific conditions and spaces where we can support that set of their career as well. And then, you know, the term creative studio, I guess, can be interpreted in lots of different ways. But in some ways, it’s it’s our way of expressing an open endedness and interest in working on curatorial projects, working on publishing projects, and generally being available to consult or collaborate or form partnerships and all of these other interesting ways that either could be dreamed up by us and brought to others or they could be pitched to us and we have the possibility of saying yes, this is a interesting assembly, it would be excited to work on this with you.

Matthew Dols 9:14
Right, which lends the question which is basically how does it actually sort of function so like, because I had this debate with my wife about when I was talking about to her about you while before I got on here, which is like do the artists that you represent sort of say hey, you know what, I want to do an ad campaign for Burberry and then you all go find Burberry, or is it that like Burberry says, Hey, we need an ad campaign. And we like what assembly does? Do you all have an artist that would like to work with us? Like how does the actual process of decision making on what the who the best artist is or how to fit or how to find how to even find these projects? Like how does that work?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 9:55
Yeah, I think the connecting the dots goes in like all different directions. You No, it’s not just one linear path. So, for instance, we may get a request from the New Yorker or the New York Times saying, Hey, I’m looking for this. And so we approach who we feel might be most suitable for that. Or an artist might say, Hey, I’m really interested in doing a public art project in this place. And so then we might say, well, this, you know, grant opportunity is really fitting for that. So it kind of goes all different directions. It’s not just one way.

Shane Lavalette 10:33
And I think, you know, we had a lot of conversations with artists, including the artists we represent, but also just more broadly, about the ways in which the traditional gallery model, either it fails their work in practice, or isn’t working for them, or maybe doesn’t support them in the ways that they thought it might. And then the ways in which, you know, it does, or it has worked well, and you know, ways in which we can continue to do that type of work. But we intentionally designed assembly to be this very agile, responsive, kind of intimate relationship with a network of artists, where we can really understand Okay, here’s what your short term goals are, here are some long term goals here, how we can sort of jump in and try to help connect the dots between those things and make these kinds of opportunities happen. Here’s what someone is interested in doing more of here’s what they’re interested in doing less of, and how can we kind of guide those opportunities, whether it’s through pitching and developing the possibility of them, or fielding inquiries that come our way and, and making sure we’re doing a good job identifying the right artists that’s going to bring the right kind of vision and expertise to a project?

Matthew Dols 11:45
Okay, well, I’ve got to ask though, we’re in of course, a worldwide pandemic, he kind of thing you know, the art world is in upheaval, there’s all kinds of things happening to all kinds of places closing all kinds of things being shifted and redone. Is this really the best time to open a new business?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 12:05
Yes, and no, I mean, I think the pandemic has forced everyone to really think not only about what matters to them and their values, but how to kind of articulate those values in the world. And ultimately, what assembly is, is it’s very value driven, from what Shane was talking about, to really understanding the artists needs and the goals in the short and long term and kind of tailoring what we do with them. Because of that, to working with collectors who are really building value driven collections. So not just our that looks nice on their walls, but art that aligns with their beliefs and goals for creating community. So I think our virtual platform is born from the pandemic. And as Shane said, it can kind of flex and shift in different ways, depending on the state of the world. So we’re idealistic in many ways, but I think that we’re also really hard working and kind of our career paths, prove that, that we can make those things a reality. So we’ll see.

Shane Lavalette 13:19
Yeah, I think if we can hope for anything through this moment, it’s that there’s a bit of a renaissance in terms of like new ideas and new ways of thinking about doing things. And yeah, and there’s certainly a demand for that. And there’s an interest from artists and other forms of support and kind of rethinking how things are done. So we’re just trying to be responsive to those things. And, you know, we’ve seen an amazing response already. I mean, we’ve existed for, let’s see about two weeks, right, publicly. But you know, being in the process of working with institutions, on acquisitions, being in the process of a commission with a really interesting magazine and talking with fashion brand, like, you know, the types of conversations that we’ve been able to have in a very short amount of time, you know, I think are expressive of the interest that there is not only in the strength of the artists work, but in being able to work with a platform like us to field all different kinds of inquiries. And, as we said, connect the dots between various different types of interests and projects.

Matthew Dols 14:23
Well, it seems to me like this industry that you’re in, which to me sort of a subset of things, because you’re trying to find, like, right align between commercial arts and Fine Arts simultaneously. So like, giving some of your artists or attaining for some of your artists and commercial works to potentially then be able to fund their artworks or sort of vice versa, depending on what their expertise is our kind of thing. I mean, it feels like in the end, though, really, that a lot of that comes back to the strength of the network. The two of you all since you’re, I’m assuming you all are the only employee At the moment, is that right?

Shane Lavalette 15:01
Yeah, at this point, yes.

Matthew Dols 15:03
Okay. So the strength of your networks, because like, I mean, as you will get more employees and you will expand and get bigger and bigger, that network will expand. But right now, it’s all it’s primarily sort of focused on the networks that you will have built.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 15:19
Totally. Yeah. And I think the trust that, you know, we have built with, with individuals in our communities, you know, we’re not unknown people just popping in saying, hey, do this or buy this work or whatever. We have kind of established curatorial visions in our fields. And hopefully, there’s, there’s trust there for what we’re working towards.

Matthew Dols 15:44
Yeah. Because the, the their like, quote, unquote, like gallery model that has been in existence for hundreds of years now, more or less unlimited when it started, but you get the idea. I mean, we all agree to certain extent it’s broken. We know it’s broken. And so the idea of doing something like this, I find to be a great idea. My concern for you, and for anybody participate is like, Will it work? Like, you know, so like, what’s the thing that you’re doing, that you think is going to sort of elevate this entire idea beyond some of the problems that had been in the arts industry in the past?

Shane Lavalette 16:25
Well, it’s a great question. I mean, I think not only our artists centric vision, or interest in equity for artists and kind of thinking about new ways to support artists, but this responsiveness to being able to have these really open conversations with individuals that we’re working with right now, to not just be focused on the work itself, but the people who are making it, the artists themselves, the artists behind the work, and what their needs are, I mean, I think that being able to do anything from assisting with grant writing, and, you know, developing fundraising opportunities to supporting artists with PR and thinking about how to better market their work to, you know, developing editorial content and written pieces that are going to bring in depth context to their work, to editing and sequencing and developing photo book projects, which we both have a lot of expertise. And I think the difference is just in expanding the model and opening it up in a way that allows us to think, as we say, holistically or expansively about an artist practice and how everything is interconnected, and how what they often need is, you know, a support system, and people they trust to be able to ask about anything as it comes up. And that’s how we’re interested in working with artists. And that, you know, some of the some of the good galleries and the good gallerist, or maybe agents do that. But I don’t think it’s as widespread thought about and talked about, as we might hope.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 17:51
Yeah, and at the end of the day, you know, what we’re doing isn’t new, this is how to make a life as a creative person. I think what we’re doing that’s unique is bringing it all together into one platform. You know, so an artist isn’t working with both an agency and the gallery, and maybe someone to help them with grants and marketing, we’re doing all of those things. And that’s really informed by our nonprofit backgrounds, because we’ve done all of those things before. And I think in photography in particular, you know, many photographers historically have worked across this sort of fine art and commercial sector, I mean, thinking about Walker Evans, or Elliott erwitt, you know, they were making personal work on assignment, and you look at a contact sheet and see some of that personal work that maybe wasn’t published for the magazine, but became iconic images that they showed in museums and galleries. So we’re kind of putting those things together in a way that to us feels very natural. Because it has been how one creates a life as an artist for for many years.

Matthew Dols 19:01
You talked about, like, grant funding, and and, uh, you know, commercial projects and things like this. Um, so like, if you all are okay with sort of sharing this, like, how do you fund this? Because the reason why I asked that, I’ve done plenty of grant writing in my lifetime, and holy crap, they almost never support without call, like, operational costs, you know, so they’re not going to keep your doors open. But they’ll support they’ll give grants to a project, but they’re not going to pay your salaries. They’re not going to pay for an office or your website or whatever. So doing things like helping artists doing grants, how is that that’s not going to be financially really helpful directly for your, your organization? Is it an organization or a company? What do you call it?

Shane Lavalette 19:48
At this point, it’s more of a company I suppose, as opposed to like an institution. Fair enough.

Matthew Dols 19:53
I’ll call it a company that’s so great, ready grants is not really going to be financially beneficial for you silly What’s the sort of sustainability model as far as the the financing and the funding of sort of keeping this going? I mean, because if, in my mind, again, I’m gonna just like project myself onto this, the, if you’re going to help artists get into execute exhibitions in institutions, I don’t see a lot of money coming to your company. To do that. However you the big income will be the commercial projects. So is it going to be the kind of thing where like, basically, the commercial projects are going to end up sort of funding the grant writing and the institutional projects? Or is there some other sort of funding model that I’m not getting out of this,

Ashlyn Davis Burns 20:38
you’re right to use the word indirect, because I think that that is, what we see is if the artist succeeds, we will succeed, that through the success of these other avenues that support their life as an artist or their practice, we will be able to benefit in a way that a traditional gallery or agency would benefit. So you know, there’s there’s a commission structure in place that’s really standard in the industry. But of course, we’re not being funded by grants and foundations and government funding. CMR.

Matthew Dols 21:19
I’m only partially funded by that not not completely funded that way. still seeking funding, always seeking funding sponsors, anybody wants to be a sponsor, I’m always looking for some sponsorships. But that will come in time. Okay. The, the, of course, the big question that everybody wants to know, as far as if they’re probably listening to this podcast, how do you find the artists? Now, it’s not a literal, how do you find but it’s, what I’m looking for is sort of what are the characteristics that make an artist fit this kind of a business model, because I know a lot of artists that love toiling away in the studio, and they make their fine arts and they could never do commercial work. And I know a lot of commercial artists that do amazing commercial work, but have nothing to do with the fine arts world. So like, what’s that magical combination that makes it so that an artist is appropriate to be part of your company?

Shane Lavalette 22:19
That’s another very good question. And I like this one, because we talked a lot about this, just like, you know, finding the right name. And, you know, both of us have worked for, you know, at least a decade in the field professionally, and worked with a lot of amazing artists, and there’s always more deserving interesting artists than there are like opportunities or spaces, you know, for support for them. So between us, you know, at least to start with, we wanted to at least have some intimacy, like we described. So we wanted artists that we had a connection to, in some capacity, whether that was overlap between both of us and having worked with them on past exhibitions, or residencies, or projects, or just a deep interest and belief in their work and their practice. I think that we talk a lot about the thread that connects the artists and you know, in some ways, it’s hard, because they do all have very distinct voices that are just that we’re working with. And it’s a very interdisciplinary group, not only in terms of their thinking and ideas, but their engagement with with the medium of photography, I mean, many are working in, in mixed media and painting and video and sculpture installation. But you know, they all have this very research based practice this invested interest in critically responding to issues in the world, cultural, societal issues, personal stories, and really responding to our life and times. So there’s a little bit of that thread that I think connects all of the artists that we’re looking at and looking into supporting. And then, you know, I think their interest in prioritizing one side of their practice, or the other varies from artist to artist, and we’re very open and responsive to that. I mean, some of them might not be interested in a fashion campaign, but would be interested in a really compelling magazine story. And for some of them, I think there’s an openness to doing the kinds of projects that they might not otherwise have thought of, or made a connection to. And you know, it can be very interesting to kind of explore new territory with this opportunity. What would you say? Ashlynn?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 24:29
Yeah, I mean, I think just emphasizing that, that shaman, I have personal relationships with the artists on our roster. And in part, that’s how it was built, you know, we were not new to them, and they were not new to us. And it’s interesting, because, you know, we have received so many inquiries from artists, just since we launched and we’re intentionally keeping things really small right now, because as you pointed out, we’re only two people and we really Want to fully delve into? How can this model work for these 10? artists? So yeah, I mean, it starts with this personal relationship. And then I think if you, if you look back at what Shane and I have done in our time at light work, and Houston center for photography, you can kind of get a sense of our interests. I mean, as Shane said, the artists are deeply engaged in cultural conversations that we feel are really timely and important to the world that we live in. And I think that is something that won’t really ever shift with our roster. It’s very important to both of us.

Shane Lavalette 25:37
And we’re thinking globally, too. So I think the our global interest in working and operating and expanding our network is definitely reflected in, you know, the diversity of the artists not only in terms of their background and geography, but approach to the medium. So you can see we have a lot of artists we’re working with, they have a connection to Latin America to Europe, there’s an artist in Bangladesh and India, and you know, I think there’s, there’s room to grow from there. But we’ll, we’ll definitely keep things small for the time being. So we can really focus on on these artists and the next year or two.

Matthew Dols 26:16
Want to get into a little bit more specific. So you were talking about how you chose your artists. And you said a lot of it was like basically people you already had previous relationships with and that’s all fine and good. And I love that because that basically just says like networking in Connections is pretty much the way the whole art world works. And, you know, not being difficult to work with and all these kinds of characteristics make it so of course, people want to continue to work with you. All that I totally get. But my question for you like so like from your standpoint, so let’s say all these, like 1000s of new submissions that you’re getting? What are you going to look at when you’re trying to decide when you want to grow? So like, what will be the things about a new artist who you don’t have a personal relationship with that you might choose to be part of this company?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 27:07
Yeah, I mean, I think another thing that kind of binds our roster together is everyone is at a somewhat similar point in their career trajectories. So no one is like, totally brand new, and no one has had 100 solo exhibitions at museums. So I think looking at, are we prepared to help them at the point that they’re at in their careers is one important component. And, as Shane and I both mentioned, we’re really interested in artists with an interdisciplinary practice. So kind of changing or shifting the ways we think about the medium of photography, because that in and of itself, I think, is really relevant to our discussions of culture and the world around us. And then, you know, as we’ve also mentioned, we’re interested in having a really global roster of artists. So ensuring that we have representation in different parts of the world for different projects that might come up. Shane, what would you say?

Shane Lavalette 28:13
Yeah, I think the the geographic element is certainly part of it. But a lot of it has to do with artists kind of being maybe even at this point that you might call mid career or having perhaps even received attention in one part of the world but not the other, or where their work is really ripe for more institutional attention, museum attention. It’s sort of up that scale and importance and relevance and resonance that when we introduce this work to curators, and a part of the word what they’re unfamiliar with it, they’re going to respond in a positive way. And the work is the work is there, right? But like Ashlyn said, Where do we fit in? Where can we do something to kind of add value to the artists career and support them with where they’re at? So, I think, you know, as we get to know, artists, if it’s someone who we don’t already know, or have a familiarity with, in some ways, it’s unlikely that we would start working with them in the short term, but it might mean that we start a conversation with them about their work, and get to know it over the course of the next year or two. And that could lead to something in the future. But I think that’s like, it’s like any relationship, right? Like you need to not only understand the work, you have to know the person there has to be an element of trust and understanding and, you know, just this like deep two directional belief and care and each other, that’s going to make it a meaningful relationship and not just a surface level one, you know,

Matthew Dols 29:47
so more than just a business transaction.

Shane Lavalette 29:51
Exactly. What you know, I mean, every relationship should be

Matthew Dols 29:56
in the art world for sure

Shane Lavalette 29:58
in life in life.

Matthew Dols 29:59
Don’t know, I don’t really want to get to know my person at the supermarket that closely. That’s a business transaction. That’s just me. That’s fine. All right. I have a question from a listener, violet, she wanted to know about the role of artists as citizens like to should the artists that you represent because you’re talking about like globalism and having sort of positions on things that are in the news, things that are in the one a, you know, the lexicon of what’s being talked about right now. So do they have a responsibility to have some sense of moral urgency? Or do they should they possess any sort of great thing about like advocacy or anything like this is this kind of stuff important to you

Ashlyn Davis Burns 30:47
should is always a really dangerous word. In my opinion, I think that, you know, everyone, every artist, every creative person is kind of led to what they do and how they do it because of something that is important to them. And oftentimes, that comes from a kind of intuitive place, the way that they respond to the world. And the way that Shane and I respond to the world as well. I think in terms of our interests, were interested in what reaches beyond the personal. We are interested in artists who are very engaged in the world that they live in. For me, it’s tricky to say that all artists have a responsibility to do one thing or another. But I think the artists who are doing that are particularly interesting and exciting for me.

Shane Lavalette 31:39
Yeah, you know, I’ve tended a lot of portfolio reviews with artists that are looking for feedback on their work or, you know, trying to understand what should be next for them, or how to connect with a gallery or how to get this type of opportunity or that type of opportunity. And, oddly enough, in a lot of those instances, the conversation comes back to like the work itself, and what’s driving their personal connection, their emotional connection to what they’re doing, like, and just in a broader sense, beyond the work, what do you care about in the world? You know, what do you want to engage in? What do you want to talk about? What do you want to make things that make other people think differently, look differently? Or have conversations around subjects? And it’s surprising how often the answer is, well, I’m, you know, still figuring that out, or I’m not sure. And so I think that even if the work is evolving and developing, that’s, that’s such a, and even if it’s not in a overtly political or social way, it’s just important to kind of know, this is what I care about. And this is what’s driving me in a way where I have to make this work like it’s it’s propelling me forward in a way that I almost can’t control

Ashlyn Davis Burns 32:50
what the work inevitably does work in the world, whether or not you’re there. And so I think an artist should be able to articulate what they want that work to be, if it’s so deeply personal, is anyone else going to be able to relate to it? And does that matter to you, if it doesn’t matter to you, then maybe the gallery or publishing route isn’t necessarily the most productive use of your time and interests.

Matthew Dols 33:18
I totally understand I’m, I’ve keep running into this, like, it’s big, it’s become a thing, like in the industry these days to be working for advocacy to change the world change to Black Lives Matters to you know, just general racism, to sexism, to the environments to all these different kinds of things. There’s a huge influx of an amount of creative people making work relevant to those topics, and those sort of advocacies in the industry in the world, versus 30 years ago. Like, it seems like there’s a lot more now that may simply because it’s cheaper, faster, easier, you know, everybody’s carrying cameras with them in their pockets, kind of making it the hugest easier to achieve these things. But I feel like there’s been a shift of a volume of advocacy work in the recent history.

Shane Lavalette 34:18
Yeah, I mean, I think that in some ways, maybe the most seismic part of that shift is institutions, understanding that they need to prioritize work, that is of that nature or, you know, reflects a multitude of perspectives or topics that they haven’t made a priority and, you know, other systemic issues that play out over time, that have disproportionately not supported individuals or voices or perspectives. And so in many ways, there’s like this, like bigger shift that’s happening. I mean, I don’t think that there was any lack of socially concerned or politically motivated work in the 1970s. I mean, Like speaking from the perspective of someone who worked at an organization that was started during a time where artists came together to make a space to support emerging and underrepresented artists working in photography, because the museums and institutions weren’t always doing that. For women, for artists of color, I mean, very basic. And, you know, I think that there was, there was no lack of this sort of work, or artists of different backgrounds working in history, there was just a lack of support and visibility and space made, especially with institutions.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 35:38
Yeah, I think that’s really important, Shane, because the history of photography is still being written and rewritten and rewritten. And I think, you know, as institutions and people who put these things into the world, learn more, you know, the more we understand that these artists have always been there, you know, it’s just were they given the the space and platform and opportunity to share their work in the same ways. And that’s something that’s still shifting and changing, and is very relevant, I think, to, to Assembly in what we hope to do.

Matthew Dols 36:12
All right, I’ve got to go. Also, another question from a listener Joe wants to know about, like, the idea of working consistently in a in a quote, unquote, style, you traditionally, like, when I was young, and being taught in school there, I think, oh, find your voice, find your style, and stick with it throughout your career kind of crap, which I now know, is bullshit. But that was the way we were taught for many, many years. And now also, like, in addition to sort of your company is that there’s the aspect that you’re encouraging your artists to do commercial work of, and fine artwork, which oftentimes is necessary, you could be a very different style in and of itself, as well. So like, How important do you all feel that this idea of like a consistent style, whether it’s commercial work, fine art work? And then even within your career, is to photographer these days?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 37:10
Well, I would ask Joe, is that who you said it was? So I would ask Joe, a slightly different question, which is, does the form echo the content of the work? So for me, the style and the ultimate presentation and form of the work really needs to reinforce the subject or conceptual aim of the artists? So if that is shifting, you know, is your subject matter? shifting? Is it in service? to what you’re talking about? If you’re making work with cardboard? Is cardboard integral to the subject matter that you’re dealing with? If it’s not, then why are you using it? So yeah, for me that I don’t know, I’m posing a different question back to Jim.

Shane Lavalette 37:54
Yeah, I think also the, like, the word style is difficult to unpack. I mean, I do think that you’ve been artists that work in many styles, sometimes have a cohesive voice behind the work, like, you can almost recognize that it’s coming from them, or you can see a thread that connects it to their other work, even if it’s very, very different, even if we’re jumping from Yeah, photography, to VR to you know, again, sculpture or mixed media. I think that when it comes to commercial work to the best Commission’s and the best, like creative commercial projects tend to be where an artist isn’t asked to be a technician and produce something a very specific way. But instead, it’s, you know, someone is sort of being hired because they have an interesting artistic voice, and they’re going to bring something to the project that aligns with how they respond to the world and how they work artistically. So and, you know, if those other types of projects come up, it’s also our job to, like, filter them out and say, like, no, like, maybe, you know, a different type of artists photographer, is going to be better for this type of shoot or, you know, this type of client and, and we can kind of both on the client and and, you know, within the group of artists that we work with help guide those conversations to make sure that they’re successful, and they make sense.

Matthew Dols 39:15
Okay, within that, I got another question. Because this is something this is back to my questions. Now. I find that a lot of people who go into the creative industries go in because they’re generally horrible business people, myself included, so I’m totally projecting onto this. How much of the business do you expect to your, your artists to have some skills in or are like you’re going to be running a sort of a lot of their sort of business and I put that in quotes? Or is it that they still have to sort of be professional in and of themselves and run their own business and you’re there to assist them and sort of enhance them?

Shane Lavalette 39:55
I think it’s a mix. I mean, some artists are great writers, and the Some are not. And some artists are, can be business minded. I mean, I don’t know how it happened for me, I got interested in being an artist. And then I’ve worked in nonprofits, and I’ve worked in independent publishing. And I weirdly love like the business aspect, at times. So I think it’s in this intimacy we talked about and understanding where the artist is at and where their needs are, and where their skills lie, we can help do anything that’s needed. And we can sort of fill in the gaps for what’s possible. But, you know, there are some artists that are probably great to, you know, have meetings with different places when they’re in New York City. And it’s going to sort of be helpful because they can talk about their work, and they can make good connections. And, you know, not that other other artists aren’t. But there might be certain instances where it’s better for us to talk with a client or to like, manage the process. And then, you know, they can stay focused on like, the creative aspects. Fabulous.

Matthew Dols 40:59
I love that idea. Because, I mean, what, you know, as an artist, one of my biggest pet peeves is, of course, the the amount of work that we as creative people are expected to put into the business like, I knew when I was a young kid, just out of school, I assisted for this photographer who worked for Architectural Digest, doing, you know, home shots, and business and buildings and all kinds of crazy stuff, and the amount of effort that he had to put into just getting the job. So let me hit the amount of public relations, marketing, going out, networking, doing all this kind of stuff, just to be able to get a job to be able to shoot for two hours, was ridiculous. Back in the 90s. And of course, now it’s even worse, were expected to write artist statements, write grants, do all this stuff, do our own pr do on social media to all these guys. And then also find time where we have the space time and funding to be able to create unique and interesting works on top of all that. And so like anything that you will continue to take away some of that. Things that sort of suck our souls is sounds magnificent.

Shane Lavalette 42:13
It’s not only a matter of work, I think it’s this expectation to like, wear all the hats, like you said, to do everything. And I don’t know, some people can do it as much as possible. I think like platforms, or institutions or services should be in the business of like making space for artists to do what they do best, which is make work. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 42:36
that’s all you got. Ashley just Yep.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 42:38
Yeah. Well, I mean, this Yeah, assembly really is responding to like hustle and trying to take that hustle on because we do understand the burnout. And, as Shane said, like, we want to make space for these artists to do what we love from them, you know, which is make work that changes the way we see thing.

Matthew Dols 42:58
All right, I’m gonna pose a prognosticating question for the future. What’s your perfect thing? So like, what’s, what’s that that goal project like you? So if you could create the perfect symbiotic thing between a commercial project and or an institutional project? What’s your like, company goal?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 43:23
That’s a huge question. And I imagine the answer to that will change over time. But in terms of like synthesizing some of what we’re doing an example of something that I loved seeing and responded to that, that kind of shows how we’re thinking about our artists working across the commercial sector is the Lorna Simpson collaboration with I believe it was Essence magazine, with Rihanna, really articulating her artistic vision in this unique way for an editorial outlet, I thought was really amazing. And it’s something that we’re kind of seeing a lot more of this artists collaboration with brands and publications, again, not trying to fit them into what the magazines vision is, but extending their artistic vision into this more general space, which I find really exciting.

Shane Lavalette 44:18
Yeah, and actually, along those lines, so we can’t talk about it yet, because it’s not out yet. But you know, we’re working with a magazine to do a commissioned piece with one of the artists that is literally a condition for them to make a piece of artwork, you know, as opposed to photograph a subject or you know, something specific. So it’s, it’s entirely open ended, other than a little bit of a prompt. And it’s an opportunity that’s commercial where the artist can focus on making a new artistic piece that’s going to have this life and a magazine but it’s also going to serve as a piece of art that you know, might be interesting and important to them in terms of their own. artistic practice and flow.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 45:02
And hopefully it was a broader audience to engage with art, right? I mean, that’s kind of the end goal, like how do we bring art to people in a meaningful way, and in a relatable and understandable way.

Shane Lavalette 45:17
And actually, I’m just sort of riffing on this continuing my, my thinking process about commissioning, and I, going back to the beginning of our conversation, I had this great experience of working with the high museum. And I think museums and institutions investing in the creation of our work directly, you know, financially investing in it, even if includes this mutually beneficial clause of the works going into the permanent collections, once they’re created. That type of commissioning structure is not only super helpful and supportive to the artists, it can be a really intelligent investment for the institution for the museum. And it can allow something to go out to the world or to be created that might not exist otherwise. So I love that structure and like very fortunate to have have worked in that capacity. And I, it does happen with, you know, various institutions, but I think it’d be something to try to cultivate more where we can cultivate the possibility of working artistically to do these conditions that can end up as exhibitions or as works that go into permanent collections where it can be seen, it can be appreciated, it can be learned from

Matthew Dols 46:26
Okay, so let me get so under this whole idea. So you there, it feels like it’s still a little bit of like, fits in spurts, like because they okay, right now you have 10 artists that you represent, fully Correct. Correct. Okay. That’s the ones I saw on the website. So I’m just assuming that was correct. So I would imagine like, some of them are probably getting lots of interest, and some of them are getting less. It’s, how is it that, you know, how is it sort of fitting together so that like, everybody benefits is it that everybody benefits or just like, only the person who does the thing, like, you know, because like, I’m thinking, I keep thinking about the idea of patronage, like, I love the idea of the old school pictures, like where an artist would be paid a salary every month, and they just and then the the patron gets, you know, first choice kind of thing of the works with stuff like is this, what how’s the model all working together to make it so that like everybody has, I guess, sort of the easiest way would be like, what they need to continue on,

Ashlyn Davis Burns 47:27
we’re in the process of creating with each artist a plan for the next 12 to 18 months, and, you know, that plan comes from them, and how we can help them achieve it. Some artists, you know, we’re like, I really don’t want any flows. Over the next year, I’m focusing on making new work here, the ways in which, you know, you could support me, maybe for an entire year, they’re really just seeking funding opportunities to continue to make this work. Other artists are, you know, really interested in getting back out in the world and making work for commercial and editorial outlets. And others, you know, have work that is just being published that’s ready to be shown, we’re helping them find expositions. We’re creating, essentially, these strategic plans for the artists that’s tailored to the individual.

Shane Lavalette 48:19
You know, I think it’s important both for us and the artists to also understand that, like, we have to be realistic about those plans, right. Like we we know, we’ll make successes along the way, we know that we can help make things happen. But we also know that creating something new that, you know, again, has only like fully existed for a couple of weeks, it’s going to take time before people even even know about us who we might not know are in our like closer network. So we’re lucky that we’ve seen such a like flurry of positive responses in a short amount of time, and I’m sure it’s going to continue. But we also just over the next year or two have a lot of work to do to grow our network to you know, have new conversations, to introduce artists to other people, we think that we’ll be interested in them, and to just raise awareness about assembly as a platform that exists in the world that people can work with, and that we can, you know, connect with them and work with them and this variety of ways.

Matthew Dols 49:17
Okay, I have a thing. When I was a kid, my dad used to say, like, you know, choose to do one thing and do it magnificently. Instead of like, sort of jack of all trades kind of thing. And I’m wondering how you’re going to pull off like you’re, you know, so your mission statement is really comprehensive of like a lot of different things. So, is it over time going to sort of like because a gallery and agency, a studio, you know, doing both fine art and commercial stuff, like, Is it going to be are you really gonna be able to pull off all those things, because that’s a lot to do.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 49:52
I think anyone who’s worked in the nonprofit world knows that that’s how you survive. That’s how nonprofits survive. So Shane, and I are very well versed in doing this jack of all trades, maybe at some point, we need support in certain areas if we continue to grow. But I think doing all those things comes pretty naturally to us.

Shane Lavalette 50:15
Yeah, I think diverse revenue streams is, of course, one way to be sustainable. But I’m sure you know, again, it’s, it’s so new. And we’ve we’ve sort of created it in a way where it’s agile, it’s flexible, and it will really naturally evolve. So we might find ourselves moving, you know, one direction or another, or prioritizing one aspect of what we do, depending on a number of different things. And then, you know, we didn’t get into this too much, but because it’s during a pandemic. And because we’re interested in launching in this way, we don’t have a static space, we don’t have a brick and mortar. So a traditional gallery would be investing so much overhead in a physical space, so much time and the types of things that go into that space. And that’s not to say that we are interested in the idea of a physical space, I think, especially as we find ourselves on the other side of the pandemic, whatever that looks like, the sense of community is going to be even more important and creating spaces where people can come together to appreciate work. But during this time, it means we can think very creatively about what are the needs of having a space or if we’re doing an exhibition, you know, where where should it be, or where should so and so’s work be shown more that type of thing. And we can develop a partnership or develop a collaboration that can support us to do those types of projects. So this open endedness, to everything will probably naturally evolve and maybe naturally become a bit more focused and time. But starting things in this way, I think is very liberating and interesting for both of us personally. And then, you know, it sort of positions us to be responsive to again, not only the artists, but how the field is evolving and where we think things should go. Once we find ourselves. On the other side of the pandemic.

Matthew Dols 52:07
Oh, yeah, I worked in the nonprofit industry for about 10 years. And of course, my father’s a minister, priest, Reverend, whatever. So like, basically, he was nothing but nonprofits, Oh, I know all about the do whatever it takes to get support kind of project that basis like that, you sort of just say, basically, like my teachers used to say, when a client comes to you and says, Hey, can you do this? The answer is always Yes. And then you learn how to do it. Because like, I mean, that’s just the best way to do it. Because then you might open doors, that you may never have even been aware that that door was available to you. So like, I mean, the open endedness of it has a great beauty to it. But also, it sort of leaves it as like, I’m not exactly sure what you’re doing kind of thing. So like a little bit, it’s kind of hard, because like with the Internet, and the social medias and all these kinds of things, like, on the one way being very open and inclusive is great. But sometimes also being extremely specific is also very beneficial.

Shane Lavalette 53:12
Yeah, and that’s where, you know, the language is so important. So, you know, we I think we struggled with whether the gallery is the right word, or agency is the right word, or like, what are we making? And how is it similar or different to those things? And people have these reference points in their mind for what those are supposed to mean. And I think we’re sort of picking and choosing from the different aspects of them that we want to operate in. And, you know, in some ways, developing something that’s new. Yeah, we’ll see.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 53:42
Yeah, I think for some people, it’s like clicks and makes total sense. And they’re like, why hasn’t this existed? And for others, they’re like, but how can you do all of these things?

Matthew Dols 53:52
I agree with both of those statements.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 53:55
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s just a different a different personality, maybe. But as you know, I kind of said at the beginning, at the end of the day, what we’re doing isn’t new. It’s really just assembling these different parts of the creative practice into what we feel is a sustainable whole.

Matthew Dols 54:14
Alright. two last questions. First question is, can you name what I guess so between the two of you, you don’t have to do it individually. Three artists that somehow inspire you currently?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 54:30
Oh, gosh.

Shane Lavalette 54:32
This is like a favorite films. kind of question.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 54:35
Yes. artists who are not on our roster, because I would say our roster is variable firings last.

Matthew Dols 54:43
I would leave that up to you. If you want to do your roster. Feel free to do your roster. It’s your choice. It’s your conversation.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 54:49
Well, I’ll go with one maybe we can ping pong chain.

Matthew Dols 54:52
Yeah. Okay, that will do for so to each.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 54:57
So I just opened the show in Houston. at Houston center for photography with an artist named Pacifica, Solano. And he’s an example of an artists who were working with offer after that he’s doing these really interesting, large scale, installation based work using vintage gay pornography magazines, as a way to really talk about this sort of like post Stonewall era, but also to reflect on our current moment. And they’re these very, some of them are a little humorous, many of them are very tender. So I love how he’s kind of shifting the original subject matter. And making us think about the mutability of photography, in addition to kind of the cultural issues that he’s discussing.

Shane Lavalette 55:45
Let’s see, I’m gonna plug phumi, if you know who who is an artist we’re working with. But the reason I mentioned him, it might be interesting for listeners who are interested in books, or agraphia books, artists books, is that our first like Special Edition project that we’ve released is in a close collaboration with him, he’s made this really interesting kind of humorous, handmade book project called index of fillers, and it’s inspired by his experience growing up in Japan. And you know, the imagery that comes from pop culture, some photographs of his and its design based around almost this, like comic strip structure. And you know, like I said, it’s, it’s a really small edition, so there’s only 30 copies available. It’s it’s a little bit more expensive than your average art book, but it’s still kind of at that accessible price point for what we think is a really interesting complex art object in and of itself.

Matthew Dols 56:42
I recently had a guest, Jeff Tom Miss from the Center for the Book in San Francisco. And he was talking about books that were 2000 to $5,000 or so

Shane Lavalette 56:53
this is $125. So it’s, it’s in the scheme of things. It’s very accessible. It’s signed and numbered by the artist. And yeah, and I love books. I mean, I think both both Ashlynn and I have a fondness for books. But I mentioned that I grew up in Vermont and living there when you’re young, and there’s not a lot of art museums or institutions to see an experience or work in person. So books, especially for photography, I think, you know, served very well for the experience of being able to sit down and intimately spend time with work and return to it and you know, move through a book project, especially one that is an artist book and it’s it’s thoughtful about its materiality and you know, every decision from you know, beginning to end so I love exhibitions and appreciate physical artworks in space, but there’s nothing quite like sitting down with a book,

Ashlyn Davis Burns 57:45
which is on books, then I’ll I’ll ping pong. Back to you, Shane, another one of our roster artists, Alexandra carta, Hannah, who has to be one of the most prolific photo book publishers alive today. I mean, he’s publishing easily two to three books a year, and is doing really interesting work. A lot of it focused on place and culture. He delves very deeply into his subject matter in really profound ways. And so he’s a constant source of inspiration.

Shane Lavalette 58:19
We could mention vasantha, young Jonathan, who’s a French photographer, who this is going to be a very exciting year for him, I think, because he’s been working on this project, long term project for I think about seven or eight years. That’s it’s a seven chapter project that’s inspired by the Ramayana, Indian mythology. So it’s, it’s broken into these individual chapters that he’s made into books. And this year, he’s producing the final volume of that and as we get I guess, we can mention this, it’s it’s not too secret. But as we get into like the fall, we’ll be releasing a very special box set that will have the books, seven books and seven prints together, which is or what’s included, I think, also like a very accessible price point that would be interesting, maybe for academic institutions, or, or photo book collectors or individuals that really love the Santa in his work, but he’s someone who, you know, even just speaking as a photographer I admire so deeply because of how he looks at the world, just his sensitivity to color and responding to light and the subjects around him. He’s like really mixed some of the most beautiful images I’ve ever seen. If anyone doesn’t know his work, it’s it’s worth spending time with.

Matthew Dols 59:36
I will put links to all of them in the show notes.

Shane Lavalette 59:39
Perfect.

Matthew Dols 59:41
Last question, is advice for the next generation. So people that you either it could be from your personal experiences or from the things you learned from, let’s say, your artists that you represent as far as sort of how to navigate the artistic career. smarter, let’s call it better, more successfully,

Shane Lavalette 1:00:04
I think more authentically, is what we could say which is, is my advice as someone who, you know, when I went to school in Boston, as I mentioned, I think, you know, maybe you’re young and you’re trying to figure out what the art world is and what it looks like. And maybe you don’t realize the way in which like your, your peers, and the people that are around you, and the other students that are studying and the people you meet are connected to this, you know, big network and in the future, and, you know, forging meaningful relationships, real relationships, not not networking relationships, is what allows you to connect with people in a way that’s going to be meaningful for friendships, and might be your support system for sharing your work and getting feedback or, you know, whatever it is, but also, you know, your your peers or other students or people that you spend time with are going to be the ones that you know, in curatorial positions at museums, or who might move to the other side of the world, and then randomly send you an email, you know, five or 10 years later and invite you for an opportunity or, you know, continue to follow your work. And I think that forging these, like meaningful real, like building your community building and building the people that are important to you, those types of things are not only supportive, and help you through your practice. But yeah, don’t underestimate the way in which they sort of feed into all these other career aspirations. But don’t network, just follow people that you love. And if there’s someone who is making work that you like, if there’s a gallerist, that’s doing work that you like, instead of pitching yourself, make a real connection, and just tell people that you appreciate what they’re doing. And I think that’s always a good starting point.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 1:01:51
Yeah, I love that you use the word authenticity, Shane, because I think that’s kind of where I would come from too, but more along the lines of be able to articulate what matters to you and to, to know for yourself, what matters to you. Because there are so many artists who I’ve encountered who, you know, make work and they want anyone to be able to interpret anything from the work. And for me, that doesn’t really get us anywhere. And I don’t learn anything about the artist or the subject matter. So to be able to really put into words that you believe in, why you’re doing what you’re doing, and it’s it’s not a fad. It’s not a trend. It’s really coming from who you are, I think is extremely important.

Matthew Dols 1:02:39
Okay, because you just brought it up. Can I ask another question? Okay, good. Just making sure I’m not keeping you all too long. That you talked about, like, writing about your work, or just something about statements. I hate statements. I hate writing them. But you all come from the other side of it years from sword, I would I would characterize you and I apologize if I’m sort of generalizing you, but you said you’re more than the institutional side of things. So like, I hate artist statements, and I hate writing them, how important are they to you? They’re vital.

Shane Lavalette 1:03:14
Yeah, I mean, I think back to that sense of just sort of like clarity and authenticity. I mean, I think if you if you’re writing an artist statement, I think what’s often tragic is when people go through graduate schools, and it just sort of gets too heady and convoluted and there’s an element of, yeah, it’s too wordy. And it’s just sort of striving to be something that it’s not, instead of coming from a real place, I mean, you don’t have to have the most eloquent language to say something like it is or articulate why it’s important to you, or, you know, what’s like the nugget of information that’s helpful, maybe for a viewer to have as a reference point. And then, you know, hopefully, from there, the work itself is going to be compelling and speak beyond that. But, you know, if you can’t do that, then I don’t know. I mean, in some cases, it can even be worth talking with a writer that you know, or someone who knows your work very well to help articulate something that doesn’t even have to be, you know, in your voice that could just be a statement to help frame and contextualize your work by someone who, who writes, you know,

Ashlyn Davis Burns 1:04:18
but also talk to your friends, talk to your grandmother, talk to your neighbor. You know, for me, there’s it’s always the mom test, like is my mom going to understand what I’ve written, because I actually strive to not use tons of jargon because, from my view, especially if we do want to view the work that we do as engaged in the world or activists in any sort, then we can’t hide behind jargon or words that maybe a lot of people can’t understand, because then we’re not really reaching the people that matter the most. So I would say the mom test is a great way to start the artist statement.

Shane Lavalette 1:05:00
Maybe turn that what was that business transaction, the store clerk, you can just show exactly. Just show your artist statement to your store clerk and talk about your work as here, check it out.

Matthew Dols 1:05:11
Yeah, it’s funny you say the mom test because I actually have used my mom in the past, because she knows nothing about art. I mean, don’t get me wrong. She’s an interior designer. So she, she understands something, but she doesn’t know anything about the arts. And so if she doesn’t understand what I’m writing, then I’ve missed the mark, for sure. Whereas my dad actually does make art. So you know, if he reads it, he’s just like, yeah, I get it. That’s not helpful.

Shane Lavalette 1:05:37
Yeah, when I was working at lightwork, the residency program, you know, we would get close to 1000 applications every year. So again, you know, talk about, like, no lack of strong work in the mix deserving artists, you know, kind of across the board, especially when you get to maybe the top 200 or so it’s like, you could throw a dart and they’re all deserving and making interesting work. But sometimes, like, the most resonant applications would just be the most like simple and real and direct. And there wasn’t this sort of effort to like over explain or articulate and you could just feel the person behind at work and, and kind of understand where they’re coming from, or what’s driving the process of the work. And if an artist statement does that it tends to, like, stop me or like, grab my attention.

Matthew Dols 1:06:27
As I’m listening to this, I’m rewriting my artist statement in my head. So yeah, okay. Any last bits that you want to expand on or touch on, you know, anything we got went into the You didn’t say enough about, or some topics you want to address that I didn’t bring up?

Ashlyn Davis Burns 1:06:44
We’re just glad to share more about assembly with your community. And hopefully, people will follow us, you know, on on Instagram, and and check out our newsletter. And stay tuned, because there are a lot of exciting things in the works that we can’t share just

Matthew Dols 1:07:00
yet. Wait, I’ve got to ask a question. Shane, you’re amazing on social media, you have tons of followers? Ashlynn? Not so much nothing personal.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 1:07:11
Hey, I’m really real.

Matthew Dols 1:07:14
I’m horrible at it. Shane, what’s your trick? How did you get so many followers? Like, what’s what do you do?

Shane Lavalette 1:07:22
There is no trick, I don’t know, I don’t have an answer to this. And actually, it’s funny because I am attempting, especially over the last year to to like, be very mindful about disconnecting from social media and spending less time on it and posting less and kind of creating space for other things. And yet, you know, it is a platform where you can discover work, you can connect with people you might not know and it’s it’s so important for finding inspiration and making connections or, you know, professionally for opportunities. I don’t know, I don’t have I don’t have tips or tricks. And I can’t there’s no crack of the algorithm, I would just say, again, if you’re an artist, you like sharing your work and being authentic or sharing the process of making things and your work is probably interesting to people. And then in terms of making connections on there. It’s just like in the real world, you know, like people you follow, you know, as much as you can engage with them and kind of forge forge connections and conversations, those online relationships or friendships or whatever you might call them becomes more meaningful.

Matthew Dols 1:08:33
Hopefully,

Shane Lavalette 1:08:34
yes.

Matthew Dols 1:08:36
Yeah, I know, I moved. I think I did at one time, I’ve moved 19 times since I graduated high school. And so like that issue of like, making connections and having a community and all this kind of stuff, I made the mistake in my and to the detriment of my career of not keeping up with all these people. So like, as soon as I graduated from high school, I would leave that neighbor that place, whereas I should have built better strengthen community with the professors or, or my other students. And I was very arrogant and very sort of self driven in a in a way that I believe in the end was very detrimental to me. And so like that idea of building a community, partly I feel like comes from staying somewhere, like learning to find a place and then find a way to make it work for you instead of trying to seek somewhere else.

Shane Lavalette 1:09:29
Yeah, and I think for me, like my place in some ways, as I was learning about photography and connecting with people was was the internet right? Like, I guess back in, what was it like 2000 678. Like, there was this moment where blogs and photography blogs were kind of big maybe before the you know, it’s not that social media didn’t exist, but it was before the explosion of social media and That internet community and looking at artists and people that I was paying attention to. And I started a blog where I could write about artists or feature artists and you know, do interviews and it was just an excuse to like, again, connect in meaningful ways with other people whose work I liked. But through that, it’s over the course of, I guess, a decade or maybe more, it built a community. And so as a lot of people sort of stopped blogging or moved to social media, or you know, everything became so saturated, in some ways, like all of all of those people that I connected with, far back then I’m still even if I don’t know them that well, I like know, their presence on the internet. I know them through Instagram. Now I can remember that we, you know, had email exchanges 15 years ago about a particular artist or an idea, or whatever it was. So yeah, the internet is amazing. And it’s so interesting, what kind of connections can naturally occur.

Matthew Dols 1:10:59
Marvelous. Well, thank you very much for both of your times.

Ashlyn Davis Burns 1:11:03
Thanks for having us.

Shane Lavalette 1:11:04
Yeah, thanks for chatting.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com