Transcript for Episode 162 – Action + Multimedia Artist, Lumír Hladík (Canada + Czech Republic)

Recorded on March 11, 2021
Published on April 8, 2021

Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/action-multimedia-artist-lumir-hladik-canada-czech-republic/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:14
In my life, so and this is the thing is that I find it to be very personal. When I like when I think about mine, I’ve over the course of my lifetime, I have had jobs where my jobs are somewhat artistic and creative. And then it sort of sucks a lot of my energy out for me doing my own personal work. And then I’ve had jobs that are like zero creativity in the job. And then literally, I’m just hired from the neck down just to like, do a function. And it actually helps me to be incredibly creative, and actually better with my time, because I have less time for my art practice. And I hate calling it an art practice, because it’s my art Mastership. But anyway, but that, that idea of like, is it legitimate to have another job? Or do you need to be making money from your art

Lumir Hladik 1:04
a? And

Matthew Dols 1:04
then if so, like, what kind of jobs work best for you?

Lumir Hladik 1:08
The whole topic about professional artists are not just funny. Interestingly enough, I was talking to a friend yesterday about exactly the same thing. And then the answer is quite simple. To me being a real artist, is that you are making a difference, you having a conversation with the universe, God doesn’t matter what it is, it’s a it’s a conversation between you and any universe. Because it’s an involuntary thing. And you know, it’s happening by itself, by default, you have this urge, I think the artists do to make it happen. And to, to put it out into some express yourself, but you begin you being dissolved in the cosmos or in the universe. So in that sense, it really doesn’t matter if you’re selling the art or not, even if you’re not, if you’re not, you know, showing it doesn’t matter really funny enough. A lot of my early work, got kind of presented like 30 years later, or 40 years later, actually, right now, like it’s being right now. It’s part of a show in audience and i’d love him, right, there’s a big show called suddenly, like mirroring, and about 30 artists, and I’m one of them. They’re all these names, like, you know, go t ball and Cartagena should go to Martini and whatever, you know, from people are 100 years old, and who are like 40 years old, you know, doesn’t matter. And so all my work was in a drawer for like 4030 years doesn’t mean that it didn’t exist, it was insignificant or significant. Suddenly, eventually, it found its way to, to be seen. And many people find it very profoundly interesting or moving or insightful. And so it’s reaching their life. And that’s all what’s what’s it about. So I had the urge to do it. And they have these, the satisfaction to accept it. I think that’s that’s basically the equation, right? That’s kind of one I would say, layer of the of the equation here. And then reacting to your other comments about how people make their living. In my case, I am a total mix. I have several allies. So I’m doing my fine art, which is my you know, emphasis but at the same time, I am a designer as well, I mean graphic or strategic designer, a consultant as well. So I, I can make money, I do make money from that. Because I just know things and can advise. I am an associate artistic director of the largest short play festival in Canada for about the last 15 years. And I absolutely enjoy that. And that’s a volunteer thing that me I’m not getting paid from this. But where I do all the, you know, the visual part, including all the states that which are digital digital stage sets. And I did over 250 plays in the last 15 years, you know, including the Shakespeare’s whatever, it doesn’t matter the most the short plays, and he was tremendously rewarding and working with all these people and so on. And of course, as you mentioned before, it influences my art as well maybe subconsciously or not, it really doesn’t matter. Because what I learned from let’s say my I would say the corporate world when you working with companies and so on, you get very organized, you know, you’re responsible, you’re on time you respond, you’re nice, you’re not a jerk, or you don’t have any moods, you know, because that’s not accepted. Funny enough. You’re an American. Can you imagine? Most of my clients are American guys. By the way. Wish are very nice, friendly people. And we have a nice way to do business together. And I have certain talents they need, and it’s all great. But everything influences everything. And it’s all very been beneficial.

Matthew Dols 5:16
Right? Indeed.

Lumir Hladik 5:18
And then then the same thing, for example, you learn patience, and you determine to a commitment, that means, like, you stick to your guns, and you’ve finished things off, and perseverance and so on. So, I find because I was tutoring and mentoring all kinds of younger folks, I’m talking artists, in many cases, they failed, in terms of not like selling the art, whatever, but they failed, because they were lacking the I would say, that’s a horrible word, by the way, it’s discipline. Okay, so you’re saying, I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna, you know, I, I’m in already, as I feel, I have all these feelings, I have all these ideas, whatever, I’m gonna make it happen, I’m gonna enjoy the ride, I’m gonna do this stuff. I love it. It’s great. So you’re talking and everyday with the university, combine things, whatever. And I had the other day, I talked to the famous director in the Czech Republic. And we agreed that it’s a total joy, to speak the language of things. And that’s what it is, like you talking to objects they talking to you. And you’re in that beautiful world, okay, like a child, you know, like they have this borderline between a reality or not, or me or you, whatever, all it’s all blended, it’s very what are called liquid, right? So it’s very nice to be in that liquid world. But Funny enough, liquid or not, you still have to deliver you have to be you have to get up and do it. And if going back through other questions, you say, well, do I have the money to do it right now, for example? It’s like, I need funds. So Sure. So I funded myself, I got grants as well. All of the above, and I sold art as well. So I’ve seen people say I’m determined I have to sell my art. And I you know, that’s it, but then sometimes they die in the process of not selling their art and the whole practice dies. Which doesn’t make sense. To me, right, so so that’s not necessary, that’s not necessary. Or you said that before as well. There was one note that you say they have to produce, kh or something, whatever, in order to sustain. There was one things I promised myself not to do, ever, because I have some friends who do that they, they produce an assembly line, and they detect that something is more successful. So to produce more of that, that’s a Rogen,

Matthew Dols 8:02
a lot artists do like prints or other things like this, to make some more affordable things for the general public versus like, they’re one of a kind, super fine art in the in the gallery kind of stuff.

Lumir Hladik 8:15
Yeah, but I’ve seen that then eventually, in some cases, they were seduced by the, by the successfulness of certain art. And suddenly, they gravitate towards that, and end up in an impasse. And basically, they it’s totally screws up their, you know, their their practice, because they lose the freedom. So not only are they the what is it the dictatorship of money? gets the better of them? And that’s the end of it.

Matthew Dols 8:44
Yeah, they become a slave to the almighty dollar.

Lumir Hladik 8:47
Exactly. So that’s a trap. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 8:49
there’s a lot of traps what it is an issue because like, I mean, if you’re producing works, let’s say five to $10,000 original sculptures or drawings, in your case kind of thing. And then you make, let’s say, you make some more affordable ones, and the more affordable ones end up selling better or more, let’s say at least more frequently, or whatever, then the high priced ones, you’re suddenly there, you’re that sort of point of like, okay, but do I keep doing those really expensive things? Or do I make more of the less expensive ones? Because they make me a better living? Yeah, it’s a tough decision to be made.

Lumir Hladik 9:26
Though, as I said, I decided I’m not going to, you know, walking this path at all. And I do some, you know, consulting or strategic design stuff, where I am a professional. And then I don’t have to compromise my art at all at all. I just can do stuff, whatever. I feel like, I don’t really care if somebody buys it or not. Absolutely not.

Matthew Dols 9:53
love you for it. I totally admire it. I love it. I mean, I’m sort of the same way Like I don’t, I did some Commission’s early in my career and I fucking hated all of them. I look back on them, they’re like, they’re to me. They’re just a complete embarrassment. They, they have nothing to do with me they were I pandered to them too much. And I learned I was like, I’m not doing that again. And yeah, I mean, I pretty much make, I try my best to pretty much make whatever I want to make disregarding whether or not I can make money. Now on the other hand, I’m now married, and my wife would like me to make more money by selling my art. So I have a little bit of inner house outside pressure, let’s say to try and make some more money there. But you know, whatever.

Lumir Hladik 10:38
I’m available a bachelor, which means I don’t have that pressure.

Matthew Dols 10:43
It is very different.

Lumir Hladik 10:44
Yeah, yeah. No, I have no obligation. So in that sense,

Matthew Dols 10:49
so I have total freedom. Yeah, I didn’t get married until I was I think over 40 or 41, something like that. So like, I had a long amount of time where I totally understand what you’re talking about. Yeah,

Lumir Hladik 10:58
right.

Matthew Dols 10:59
It’s a very different pressure when you have, you know, family members, let’s call them sort of encouraging you to try and make more money instead of be happy.

Lumir Hladik 11:09
So So I did you know, I did that I have two children. I mean, children, they’re very old. Basically, they’re in their early 40s. Right?

Matthew Dols 11:18
You do not look that old?

Lumir Hladik 11:20
I am very old. Yeah. But so they’re, you know, early 40s, or mid 40s, sexually. So I did all that. And of course, you know, that forced me to do, obviously, to learn how to make money by applying my old kinds of talents, that works well. So you learn the logs along the way. And let’s say I advise a company in the states in a medical field, and advise them on on everything from cradle to grave, for example. That means, you know, everything visual they have to do, they come to me, and we are all very happy. Eventually, you know, I said very successful venture, which will change the world, in the industry of heart palpitations, who call it with me as for example, but anyway, it’s just an example. So, but as I said before, all that other stuff, because I have to study in order to consult, you have to understand what they that particle client bloody does. And so then it forces you to study everything from quantum physics, to biology to psychedelics, would you know, I have to? Because I have to understand it.

Matthew Dols 12:30
Yes, I had to do the same thing.

Lumir Hladik 12:32
Right. Right. So but then, at the same time, it opens a whole new world, which basically go Oh, wow, you know, it’s, so I’m reading, you know, the inner life of trees, and, again, about psychedelic drugs and about digitisation the issue of social media of, you know, algorithm Algorithms and Data ism. And it goes on and on, and on and on, right. But it’s influencing, because the art again, is, I give you this, because I have to share this this thought, one day, I had an intern or something. And then I asked him, What is what is art? What is art? I mean, they just they were freshly out of school? And they said, Well, you know, something like you express yourself or whatever. I said, Yeah. What is the artists do? And they sent me? I don’t know. Nobody ever told them. You know, everybody’s saying art for years. Nobody told them what art is. And I thought about something and I go, I said, Well, to me, a true art is when it’s like raining in the mountains. And the rain, soaks in and goes into the underground, then it percolates from the mountains all the way to the valleys for hundreds of kilometers for years, and takes on all the nutrients and minerals and so on gets richer and changing meandering, whatever. And then years later, or 100 years later comes out somewhere in a valley as a spring. And people drink it. They say, wow, this is really good water. That’s what two hours does.

Matthew Dols 14:14
Yeah, I have not thought about that definition a long time. That’s a good definition, though. Yeah, I will go with that.

Lumir Hladik 14:22
Right. Because it’s it’s like it has to go through but it has to be involuntary. That means it’s intuitive. It’s subconscious. Everything is in there. And you basically become the conduit, you make it eventually you have to, you have to reveal the spring to people to drag but other than that, you just patiently and humbly let the bloody thing percolate in your subconscious for decades.

Matthew Dols 14:49
It’s an interesting conversation. I mean, I had a debate going back and forth for two years or so with a friend of mine in undergraduate school, where we we asked that exact Question like what is art. And we each took on sort of a contradictory position. And every time we would run into each other, we would come up with a different idea of like, of our, you know, a new insight to the idea. And in the end, we never truly came up with a sort of final thing, but we did touch on a lot of it that sort of like was like, he brought up things like, is the way the wind blows through the leaves in autumn? Is that an art?

Lumir Hladik 15:31
Kind of like? Yeah, yeah, well, well, okay, so I have an opinion on that, too. So I described this percolating, you know, spring thing, whatever that’s kind of the art is job or how it, how its origin is, how the art happens. Now, what art is I have an opinion on that is I consider art to be a formal system. What I mean by that it’s a code. It’s basically a code. And the code is that the proof of that is when you look at a painting, for example, or sculpture, you know, right away, that’s a T shirt, or it’s a lot of interior Botticelli or whatever, or it’s our building his friend, Gary, what you can tell in a second, why because it’s a system. It’s consistent. It has, it has algorithms, basically, algorithms built in, which are created by by the artist and he cannot help him or herself, but to produce that algorithm. And then in terms of value, the more perfect the system of algorithm is, which is the formal system is the better value and the better system it is. It’s like, think about like a software in your computer, if it’s full of bugs, whatever. Right? So it’s like, ah, whatever. But if it’s phenomenally perfect, then go wow, you know, this works like a charm. So when you look at the good art, of which is, and again, the problem with art is it’s an insanely long chain of matryoshkas. You know, you know, those are babouche cars, you know, those Russian dolls? Yep. So it’s an infinite length, basically, let’s say they say the virus right now has 25, you know, a chain of 25 codes in it. It’s 25,000. Sorry. So it’s a very long one. But it includes all the historical contacts we were exposed to, as humans for 1000s of years, it’s all in. So this is so difficult, because whatever, since caveman and with the Romans, and Greeks, and so on is all accumulated. And we have these, you know, it has to be all in all, because immediately recognize, oh, this is a Roman pole. And this reminds me of this reminds me of that. And the brain calculates it in so anyway, that’s my opinion. Okay,

Matthew Dols 18:07
I like it. I like your code idea. But to me, that only works sort of later. So like the first Frank Gehry house building, I don’t know what he did first that he did that doesn’t have the code in it. Yeah. But only through repetition through doing it again and again, and building on it and expanding on it. Like a basically like, like, what I’m hearing from this is like, an artist is an artists code. In this case, and artists code is created through consistency of work over time,

Lumir Hladik 18:45
or consistency of evolution. So usually, there’s an underlying thread, everybody believes you acquire that when you’re very young, you know, from my childhood, so is that I agree with that. It’s, that’s true. But even if seemingly, the work looks totally different from what you did in your 20s. Still, there has to be an underlying code, which is connecting at all. And I agree with you that some artists find it very early on, and some don’t. So I’m very early late. So obviously, I’m very allergic to this term, emerging artists, like that’s driving me nuts. I’m sorry, but okay. It’s like, everybody’s Oh my God, he’s emerging, emerging, like, everybody was emerging. And so poor little Lucien Freud, okay. was not really emerging until he was like 65, in my opinion, because he did the best work between 65 and 88. Right, like his stuff which sold by the way for $68 million, like that. obese female on the couch, right. Lucien Freud, like one of the, you know, best painters ever, I would say is Rembrandt and was in Freud book, but then you look at his early work. It’s very stiff until somebody will crucify me for this but comparing to this late work with all these nudes and you know, the the dog there and lying and whatever. I mean, that’s incredibly phenomenal. Say it’s Rembrandt is basically feel the pain of all humanity in it. Right. But it came later. So he was emerging, you know, they’re late bloomers. So unfortunately the the art world some of them they always look for this on he’s young so math to come up with a new idea. Well, sometimes it takes like 50 years, and I’m sorry.

Matthew Dols 20:40
I’m hoping I’m a late bloomer, I hope still to make my best work later.

Lumir Hladik 20:46
Many did. I mean, we can go through names, you know, what’s his name, Guney, de Kooning, whatever. Like another example?

Matthew Dols 20:55
Well, even Picasso, like the stuff that we recognize as quote unquote, Picasso’s Oh, he did much later in his life.

Lumir Hladik 21:03
I agree. Yeah. When you think about the red, pink or blue period, then then look at these true Picasso’s later on. I agree, because when I look at it, I try talking about these algorithmics formal system, because he is a great example of that. Right? Immediately, you know, it’s a big castle. And then I look at the whole painting in terms of his composition, and you know, all the rules I understand and, and don’t still, and I’m looking, I cannot find anything wrong with it. I’m trying for years. I can’t, because it’s bloody perfect.

Matthew Dols 21:42
It’s really hard. Because like, it’s when you can find the thing that makes your work. Work like that. It’s good. Let’s call, you cannot it’s really hard to quantify why it is good. But it’s really easy to quantify why things are bad. Right? It’s a very difficult balance, like II when you when something is in the studio, and it clicks it works it jives, whatever, like, you can’t explain what it is about it that does that. But if it’s going wrong, or it has gone wrong, it’s so easy to just say, Oh, it’s because of that thing. They’re like, yeah, good is a very difficult thing to quantify. But bad is very easy to quantify.

Lumir Hladik 22:27
I have one way how to do this observation if it’s good or not. And it’s very simple. I just look at it. And I look at it through my heart, you know, the stomach thing, you know, you basically you’ll let everything go switch off the brain, I look at it. And if they feel I have no comment, it means it’s, it’s basically silence. Then I go, wow, this is cool. And if something is sticking out something like you know, it goes like, like a little you know, little guy on the left shoulder, we’re gonna have a whale. I don’t like this board that’s out of proportionately. And whenever they do it, you know, like that little thing that go now whatever. Or Funny enough, a unique other example. So, so we have fun here is when the the art is too sweaty. You know, it’s somebody’s trying too hard. You know, it’s like it’s sweaty. Yes, on. I go, okay. Okay. He’s, he’s trying to impress Oh, that’s great. So that’s, that’s a very big, big problem that it has to look like. It took no effort at all, even if you spend half a lifetime on.

Matthew Dols 23:41
Absolutely. I’m very famous for overworking my work and trying too hard. And I failed miserably a lot because of that, like, it’s difficult to it’s it’s a, to a certain extent, it’s an ability to allow the work to talk to you in some ways, but it’s also a confidence within yourself to say like, okay, it’s done. And I don’t need to keep trying, like I find for my work they miss. My best way of doing it is to put it aside. And I don’t look at it for a couple of weeks, maybe a month, and then I’ll bring it back out. And if it still is annoying me in whatever way Okay, fine, then it still needs to be worked on. But otherwise, oftentimes what happens is I put it away when I bring it back out. I’m like, Oh, no, it’s great. Just the way it is. It didn’t need anything more so like, sometimes a little bit. I’m big on time and distance to allow for that sort of understanding to come in.

Lumir Hladik 24:38
I agree that I do the same. It needs time. But what’s frustrating is that often I did something and kind of like I would say insignificant and an idea you do it, whatever you put it aside Six years later, okay? I look at it go. Holy mackerel, this This was actually great. Why? You know, and all the other stuff. I thought, Okay, this is great, great. Then I go back to this one. And it was a nugget of direction, which was much better than all the other stuff. Right? I just didn’t see it that that time you were too close. Right?

Matthew Dols 25:19
happens all the time.

Lumir Hladik 25:21
Yeah,

Matthew Dols 25:22
indeed. All right. Now I’ve neglected I need to do some little sort of formal things here. Could you do me a big favor? And please pronounce your name correctly? For me?

Lumir Hladik 25:34
English or Czech?

Matthew Dols 25:36
You could do both?

Lumir Hladik 25:37
Both. Okay. So in English is alumier melodic in check? It’s alumier. Logic. Right.

Matthew Dols 25:45
All right. And then I also find it interesting. I want to go back to some of your like childhood, you were born in the Czech Republic, you now live in Canada. And you were born in the Czech Republic, under communism? And then now did you leave prior to communism leaving like so like, what was the process of leaving? And when? And how did that all work out?

Lumir Hladik 26:08
I left in 81 1981.

Matthew Dols 26:12
So that’s still under communism.

Lumir Hladik 26:14
So very big, deep, deep, deep communism.

Matthew Dols 26:18
How did you get out?

Lumir Hladik 26:19
It was very complicated, because I already at that time I was married, I had two children who were like, two and three and a half years old. So the regime, the Communist Party would make sure that the whole family doesn’t leave together, obviously, you know, that’s the, that’s obvious. So what I had to do is, I went to the island of Cyprus for holidays. Okay. And then my wife and my kids went to visit my aunt in Munich and best Germany at that time as Germany with my mother together, different time later on. And it was so complicated that basically, I had an extended visa. So then I had to actually sign an affidavit that they allow my family to leave the country while I’m staying back, because the police thought I’m already back from Cyprus, but I was delayed. So they thought you’re one of us is still in the country. So then I left for Cyprus, for Cyprus, they left for Miss Germany. And it was a major glitch, because I didn’t expect that if I go to an island, they would take my ID away my passport, because usually they would do that to everybody. So to stop you from defecting, right? So they still did that on on the island of Cyprus. So I go, Okay, I’m screwed, because I don’t have any ID. So I do I leave. So then, my brother joined me because my brother that time my brother lived in Toronto, he left in 68 1968. So he joined me on the island of Cyprus, I’m you’re trying to figure out how to get me out. And there were all kinds of people and we have to smuggle you on a ship to Marcee and to go to the to Athens and to know I mean, it was it was bizarre and all kinds of con artists and trying to make money on it on you. But eventually, I came to my senses, I went to the West German embassy and asked for asylum on the grounds of I’m actually have German, right, so my mother was German and, and I spoke absolutely fluent German at that time. So they took me on and worked on on some, the way to take me out of, you know, to take me out of Cyprus, basically on my story, because I don’t have any ID they didn’t know who I was, they had to verify. So they actually then talk to my mother in Munich, after my family arrived in Munich, they talked to her, they verified that she was actually, you know, more in German and so on. And then they had to do one more thing, which is kind of funny, that it was kind of the rule of the diplomacy that I had to meet the Czechoslovakia and ambassador in Cyprus, before I was basically taken on by by was Germany as a asylum seeker. Right. So I met the chuckles avakian Ambassador who was actually a Slovak Czechoslovakia right so he was and he told me and just don’t have a heart attack. He said Mr. melodic You know, you’re committing a crime by leaving the country it’s funny when you think about an American You know, you’re not leaving the country you just you just moving somewhere else because you’re experienced another country what’s the point like whatever, but they’re leaving country was a crime. You know, okay. You know, it’s a crime. So but we are so nice that if you come back, you will go to prison. For three years, and after that you will become a regular contributing citizen to in obvious, so our beautiful socialist country. And my answer was it was funny ago. Mr. Ambassador, I hear you and I’m so sorry. But you know, I am a family man. And my family is in Munich now. And I don’t feel like I should abandon my children to go to prison. I’m sorry. I think I have to go to Munich to join my children. I it’s a hard decision, you know, prison or, or family, but I think I’ll go for the family thing. So, the German ambassador, kind of, you know, smirking. In the back. It happened in the building of the German Embassy, obviously, on the nose. Important, so I cannot be kidnapped and you know, back into Czechoslovakia so. And then the German Embassy gave me a passport. That’s German passports for foreigners. And I was so lucky. It was the only one they issue that year on the island of Cyprus. Because they fell for me, there you go. Yeah, this guy, you have to help him out here. And then then I spent a year in Germany, because the the applied for the Canadian to be moved to Canada, and the Kenyan government, but it takes a while. So we spent about close to a year in Munich. And then we then we moved over to Toronto.

Matthew Dols 31:37
Okay, so the reason for Toronto was because of your brother being there.

Lumir Hladik 31:42
There were multiple reasons. One, they asked me to have what why don’t you stay in Germany or have Germany speak the language, whatever. First of all, Germany’s is a beautiful country, but it’s just too many Germans. So it was too close to the Czech Republic and, and, and so on. So then I really want to first of all, I wanted to, yeah, be closer to my brother. Live in an English speaking country. I wanted to learn how to speak English, because I didn’t at that time. Right. So English is the opening gate to a lot of knowledge, because almost 90% of all the information in the world is written in English, then of course, Canada is because I love nature, by the way, a lot. I go Canada, you know, the the endless virgin forests or not less or more virgin, whatever, I still compete, comparing to few acres in Czech Republic where they shot the last bear in 1886. You know, I thought it would be beautiful. And I never regretted that because I canoed the Canadian lakes and streams and forests, whatever for, you know, 40 years. And it’s an incredible experience.

Matthew Dols 32:54
Right now, I looked up a bunch of stuff, and everybody talks about your connection with the wilderness in the sky stuff. So like, I guess the first question is, like, do you live in the wilderness? Or do you like have a cabin in the wilderness that you I

Lumir Hladik 33:07
don’t have a cabin? Sorry, we used to go to one. But even a cabin is not wilderness. So I don’t live in a wilderness because being an artist, you have to have access to a multitude of spray cans, or, you know, photography or the internet, obviously, right? So that’s a given but the wilderness in Canada is very, very close by. Right so about three hours, three hours from Toronto, the forest starts and goes all the way to Alaska. So you have about 1000 kilometres for is it just enough? Okay, that’s plenty.

Matthew Dols 33:42
For one lifetime. Yeah,

Lumir Hladik 33:43
one lifetime. And the real wilderness is that what I love and I lived in Alberta as well for five years. So I did a lot of Rockies. But the the canoe trip is you get a canoe, you get all the equipment, that means your food, everything, you put it into the canoe, you put it on a lake and then you travel for a week or week some people do it for six months. And you’re the only one in the wilderness period. Okay, sometimes you meet somebody else but they’re, you know, it’s really there’s no path there’s no roads, there’s nothing there’s only you and the canoe and the bush and the waters and bears and rolls and it’s all there you’d see them they they’re next to you okay, but so far so good. They didn’t attack and then the the ultimate which I did many times is that to accelerate this this thing because you drive about six hours north, in your car, then unload, get the canoe. Then there is a company that float airplanes like the beavers and and cessnas whatever they load the canoe on, on the beaver on On the floats on the floats, you get in, they fly you another, you know, for another 45 minutes an hour north, and they land on a lake, they drop you off, and they fly away. And suddenly, you’re in complete silence, you know, it’s the bush, it’s like noon. So birds don’t sing whatever. And it’s the deafening silence. And it’s like 28 degrees, you know, the water, the water is warm, it’s beautiful, it’s great. And you’re on your own for a week or two weeks doesn’t matter, and you traveling the country, and you don’t meet anyone. And of course, there’s no signal, there’s nothing if something happens to your dead. Just great goes to you, you are careful. And then in the in case of this rule is with the airplane is sometimes you do a random rule. So that means they, they say they will pick you up a week later, 100 or 150 kilometers down the stream. And then if you don’t show up, they will come the next day, if you don’t show up, we’ll do a search party for you. But it might take another week, because nobody can land anywhere because it’s a very rugged country. Right. And when I say river, it’s it’s a it’s a system of lakes, streams, little rivers, little board dodges, and so on different levels. So it’s an obstacle course. So you know, about a week you lose about eight pounds. That’s a great way to lose weight, too.

Matthew Dols 36:43
I did that I did whitewater rafting trip, like two weeks ago. And it was both exhilarating and enjoyable. But also like one of the most difficult things because of course, like you, we both wear glasses. So like I was constantly in fear. Because we were going through rapids and stuff that I’d lose my glasses. And if I’d lost my glasses, I would have been screwed.

Lumir Hladik 37:05
I only use them for the computer. So I know. I

Matthew Dols 37:09
just have to see.

Lumir Hladik 37:10
See that’s a problem. They have to be yes. Do they have the string? Right? I

Matthew Dols 37:14
did the croakies I put the but I still like the whole time I was in fear that I was going to lose those. I mean, you know, some it’s one of some of those difficult things of like modern conveniences. That would be really, really horrible if I lost them.

Lumir Hladik 37:30
Oh, yeah, no, that’s the thing. It’s what I love that, yes. You have to get ready for the trip. And you have a list and you go through this all the time, whatever. Because there’s no way once you they dropped you down. If you don’t have a spoon or fire, you’re in bad shape. There it

Matthew Dols 37:46
indeed, yeah, you learned to be prepared.

Lumir Hladik 37:49
Yeah, yeah. Because occasionally you run into folks, because it’s these routes, whatever. But sometimes you don’t. There’s nobody period.

Matthew Dols 37:58
Okay. And then this whole interest in nature and spirituality and stuff, you’ve brought a lot of that into your artwork as well. And so I’m sort of interested in that decision. Because a lot of times when like I read about you, they often talk about the 1970s in the 1980s and your performances and your your shit, what do they call the happenings in this congregation, because they see to your actions. And then there seems to have been a very strong transition from sort of that sort of performative work into object based but then the object base has this integration of the this natural element and a lot of it, and sort of a respect for it and a discussion about the nature. So like, what brought you to like deciding to include nature in your work.

Lumir Hladik 38:54
So to connect all this, so when I did all the action art, but I did some installation stuff already in the 70s, as well. So, you know, in the book, written by pavlina, Morgan over there, there are some examples of that. So then there, I’m doing installations now. So it’s kind of you know, it’s just moved on, but it’s still there. But the, the connection with nature was interesting, because then again, I was doing action art. And then there’s a relation between action and intervention. And then, at one point, I was doing all kinds of drawings and, and objects. And then I thought, you know, I need a divine intervention. I want to work with randomness, or chance. So I thought about all kinds of ways and suddenly because I was in the nature all the time, I thought, why don’t I expose some stuff like some you know, in this case, these cardboard tubes in development is and invite bears, black bears, like Because it’s Ontario, and other animals to to participate to do some randomness like destruction or whatever, and then I will work from that, that means I will get this, you know, there’s a different when you do something, it’s, it’s a vontade thing, it’s like you do it, you have the influence, then you draw, it’s just you. And I wanted to work with the universe that means with, with another being with another force or power, which will work with me. So there was trial and error, but again, I put some fish or meat into these concentrated tubes, wrapped them in paper and so on and behind them on trees, with chains, and expose them to our friends, you know, sort of like bears and other animals ate worked like a charm. They loved it, okay, all of them. So, so, usually the bears open it up, and they were fishers, raccoons, Martin’s, like the whole, you know, the whole forest came in to participate, and I have videos showing it, there were like spy cameras, you know, triggered by motion, right? So I even have, you know, videos where the whole family three cubs and a mother bear come in, and they flavored it and they, they use it like apart for the entertainment Not only that, there was some food, but it was it was a toy, because they you know, animals are inherently very curious, right. So, I have all those animals coming in and doing it and they they ripped it apart beautifully. In such a way I could never have achieved myself. So this is this, I would say the bio interventions I call it so this is the interspecies bio intervention with with between bears and Fishers and raccoons and or whatever. And even insects bigger eventually, when the tube was ripped open, all the other in bacteria came in and ate everything out, whatever. So it was a nice, clean as a whistle, right. And then I came back and then continued the work, buying paint and everything and so on. The the theoretical or the thesis for all this is that I compared it to the cutter comp saints art. And they The catacomb Saints is that, you know, there were all these bones in the catacombs of Rome, and they were moved to Europe like to Austria, Germany. And they created these basically artificial scenes out of them to give them names. The best church containing about 14 of those is involved Sasson in Germany on the border of Czech Republic. And they decorate it, you know, they were these nuns, and they did grow all these the saints with gold and embroidery, and so on and put him on these enclosures. Again, the Beautiful Names, then that time, and there was like 17/18 century that people would give their children the names of these saints. So this is talking a little bit about mortality and mortality and celebrity. So the juxtaposition of the whole thing is that, you know, I invited the anonymous animals, which I believe are martyrs, like, you know, all the animals because of our arrogance and stupidity and greed, whatever. I think all the animals are basically victims, right? So I invited these victims, these martyrs, these anonymous bears and animals to do some art, then expose it as a celebrity thing. As opposed to, you know, showing a picture of jennifer aniston, for example, right, or civil Shepherd, so I don’t know, whatever. So I have these anonymous animals. I venerate them. Basically,

Matthew Dols 43:46
you so dated yourself with civil Shepherd, but it’s okay. No,

Lumir Hladik 43:50
no, no, it’s not dated because I saw a movie these days when she was like 19 and just remind me of her but the talking about Jennifer Aniston she’s still on. She goes through through whatever. And again, my my, what’s funny is if you check the internet, then you check Jennifer Aniston she would be let’s say 60 million results. Michelangelo would be like 30 million. I find it bloody sad. And I don’t have anything against Jennifer Aniston. But,

Matthew Dols 44:26
but you have a lot for Michelangelo.

Lumir Hladik 44:29
I love Michelangelo.

Matthew Dols 44:33
It’s an interesting topic in and of itself, because you seem to have some knowledge on algorithms and this kind of stuff. I as much as I find the internet to be incredibly useful. I mean, for God’s sakes, we’re doing this virtual thing over the internet here. So of course I appreciate it in many, many ways. But on the flip side of that, it is a very sad state of affairs how it’s a cult of personality. It’s pretty much all that it’s turned into, and people who can use that algorithm to their advantage, they win. And people who don’t understand how the algorithm works and or can’t work with that cult of personality, they lose. So it has nothing. And sadly, a lot of the stuff in the world, specifically we’re talking about the arts has little to do with merit, Craftsman skips, skill, talent, any of those things as much as these days it has more to do with the ability to work the algorithm.

Lumir Hladik 45:32
Yeah, it’s basically the power of your elbow is stronger isn’t more important than your talent, your skill. I agree. I agree. That’s unfortunate, right. And that’s why going back, you know, we will circle back to the beginning of our discussion is that, for everybody who wants to do art, you have to split your personality, you have to basically become a, you know, a totally schizophrenic man or woman. And in order to do good art, you have to be so humble, and meek, and you have to be kind of in touch with yourself with the world with color, you know, all that good stuff. And then in order to penetrate the art world, you have to become a very aggressive marketer, and a very determined and committed and strategic person. Unfortunately,

Matthew Dols 46:30
yeah, I used to joke always about, like, the term that we use was cutting plan, that like, whenever you were approached, he always had to do it with a cunning plan, like, you didn’t do it in some sort of manipulative way. But you always sort of had a hope that if I go out to dinner with these people and have drinks with these people, that maybe that something will come up that like, it became a lot of that kind of stuff, of course, pretty COVID kind these days. These days, it’s more of, if I can, for whatever reason, tag somebody on a social media thing that somehow they might, they’ll see me and like me, and then I’m doing better. And that’s, to me, it’s so sad, like, I’m of the generation, I’m closer to you than I am to many of them, I think, in that I’m still of the generation of like, merit, you do good work, and you get results from that. But unfortunately, it’s a bit more of a cult of personality these days. And I it’s it’s discouraging for me for the future.

Lumir Hladik 47:30
Well, there’s, there’s one another thing I wish I found was that to find kindred spirits in that world, which I was blessed, I found many, and they like your work, and then they promote it as well, or just suddenly through them you go. But yeah, again, that’s an effort to find them. And they have to find you, because there’s so many, right,

Matthew Dols 47:54
it’s not just find them, but then you also have to, for lack of a better word, like befriend them, and B, create relationships with them. And then and then you even have to nurture them. So like this goes back again to like something you brought up early on, which is your work from 30 and 40 years ago, sort of being rediscovered. I mean, that didn’t happen by mistake, but that happened because you did something 30 or 40 years ago, you produce something 34 years ago, how did they How did that trickle down to then being re discovered? Now,

Lumir Hladik 48:29
I can tell you that it’s it’s quite interesting is is a little bit of random a little bit of destiny, I guess. So I did you know, that work. And then one of the photographs, there was the actual art piece with the mirror that at the beach, the mirroring See, and that showed up in one of the books from Petra rizek in his book, and so it was seen there. And then another significant person showed up, and it’s probably no more going to who is an art historian and curator, present the she’s the Vice Dean of the Academy of Fine Arts in Prague. And she wrote a book about Czech action art. And then she heard she, first of all, she saw that there but she heard from us he kovanda who is you know, teaching he’s, I would say the the person in action art from in the Czech Republic, the most known one, and he did things together. We were friends, you know, in the 70s. And I’ve seen most of his performances and he did some of mine. So he told her about this thing and about that piece, because they were they both teaching at the Academy of Fine Arts. And she mentioned that one in one paragraph about that mirrored action piece. And my friend from practice sent me that book, he goes in love somebody is writing about you. I read that I go, wow, you know, I in my drawer somewhere deep. I have another 16 or 20, other action art pieces and all that stuff, whatever. It’s sitting there for decades. So I wrote to Polina and I thought it’d be you know, if you’re interested, I have more, not only this one, I did many, many other pieces. And Pauline, I wrote back and she goes, come on and send it to me. That’s great. Like, oh, you know, she’s a historian, like there was a new dunk, thresher somewhere she didn’t know about because she, she dedicated her life to this like to find all these artists, because at that time in the 70s, we were just separated by by not knowing about each other period, because you know, it was communist regime. We’re not allowed to show. And so I sent everything to her. Then I mentioned I said, I feel a bit forgotten, because after it’s all many years old is in a drawer. And probably, and I wrote back and she said, I think I have to write a book about you. And she did. That’s what happens when you find a kindred spirit.

Matthew Dols 51:12
Yeah, that’s like the dream that somebody will sort of discover you, you know, even you know, but the most sort of important slash impressive part of it is that it happened while you were still alive.

Lumir Hladik 51:22
I can test it. I’m still alive. And that’s great. Okay.

Matthew Dols 51:26
Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of those kinds of things are found post humans are shit. I don’t know if I pronounced that correctly after somebody dies, that it was late. That’s correct. Okay. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, artists are suddenly revered after their death kind of thing more so than they were when they were alive. So let me get a habit, something like that, within your lifetime is a pretty astounding thing to happen.

Lumir Hladik 51:51
Yeah, so that was that was phenomenal. And then, so she published that book, and then she was expanding her original Encyclopedia of action, art, and happenings and so on, as well. So then, of course, all that content went into that book. And then because she was occasionally she was teaching or lecturing in North America, like, people were complaining that there is no book about in English about Czech action, or because so so the company succeeded, the Iron Curtain was very strong and very successful. So nobody knew anything about you know what happened. At that time, we were underground, dispersed, silenced and muffled, right. And it was all in the doors. So thanks to Polina everything came back out. After 40 years, I actually seen art from other people what they did at that time, okay. And then, so she actually published an English version of exactly enciclopedia of the Czech action, or after like, between the 16th is 16th, all the way to the year 2002, or something.

Matthew Dols 53:06
But see, what’s so painful for me though, is the amount of probably very talented artists that we’re producing, let’s go to sort of stay with your action work, like the extra that, let’s say they died, and then their family didn’t know what to do with it. And it literally is just lost to history, because of whatever like, because I’ve been thinking a lot about like legacy planning and how like if you’re, if your children or if you don’t even have any children, that like if and when you die as an artist, that if somebody else doesn’t sort of take on your estate that like you literally could be lost to history. And that’s a very difficult thing for me to think about, because I sort of hope that doesn’t happen to me,

Lumir Hladik 53:53
is that is that actually to happen? So as a consequence of all this things, the publishing and everything else, then, you know, there is plenty of institutions who actually acquisition my art, including on UNESCO promise of a museum Prague, the National Gallery of Canada, like all they have my art now. Okay, but it took this long to discover and do all this stuff. And again, and then I have a recent story again, when I talked to this director who teaches at by Joe niversity, and Celine has name as young Googler bloodshy. He does the documentary movies. And then his trajectory was that he wrote some a beautiful article about my action art movies, because they were filmed at that time. There was another acquisition, so the National Film Archive of the Czech Republic acquired all my movies, they are looking after them. Nice. Right. So that happened and they were actually because they did digitize them so they were broadcasted, or screened and at the the whole of A documentary festival in October. And this gentleman, He then told me because we were in Skype recently and he said, Well, I knew about you from the specter resig book. And then I walk the book from Birmingham, we’re going to add the gusset and goodnight hora at the desk is the museum sort of just go crier. And I saw the book there, I didn’t know that it was available. So I bought the book. And then I saw your movies at the festival, I had to write about it. So that’s what’s happening it, you know, we talking about the spring and percolating it just percolates through I guess, that goes for every everyone, like every artist that’s has the kind of percolating trajectory, I would say,

Matthew Dols 55:45
sadly, every artist does not have that. But you did. And good for you.

Lumir Hladik 55:50
Thank you. Yeah, there

Matthew Dols 55:52
are a lot well, but there are a lot of artists that are they, for lack of I don’t mean be to be mean about some, but like some people shouldn’t be put in the canon. I mean, the canon of the art movements, as let’s say, like, in particular, like yours is check, you know, action works for that, that work. They not everybody should be their, you know, should be the best of the best. It should be the top of top tiers. But that’s my snobby opinion.

Lumir Hladik 56:20
All right.

Matthew Dols 56:24
Okay, but what Now, within that, so like, I want to know, because like, you’re the first person, I’ve had the chance to talk to him that basically had their work, like you did work at a certain period of time, and then you’ve sort of, for lack of a very short have changed directions. And like you’re doing something now that’s very different than that. And now, of course, you’re getting accolades for that older work, but not i’m not sure you haven’t addressed whether you’re getting any accolades for your current work. So I’m sort of like, does it feel good to be getting accolades for work that’s so old? Or do you sort of had this sort of wish that people would say, Oh, he did this great stuff, then, and look what he’s doing now.

Lumir Hladik 57:09
Okay, so no, no, I get accolades for the work I’m doing now. Okay, great. That’s no problem. And I am not envious of myself.

Matthew Dols 57:20
Yeah, I guess that’s sort of what Yeah, like, do you? Like, do you want to go back and make some more action

Lumir Hladik 57:24
will not be touched on that previously? Right. No, no, no, no. It’s sort of you move on. And I am great. Yeah, I’m very happy that they see the marriage of the early work. And they see the merit of the new work because some of the institutions have my new work. For example, the National Gallery in Prague has one of the bio interventions from the Canadian forest. So is gasca is one, the jiki. Ocean foundation in Zurich has one. So yeah, no, that’s okay. That’s, that’s fine. And because you see that with every, every artists like going back to easy kovanda, for example, he did this action art thing as well. But then later, he did paintings when he does these minimal installations, and so on. So everybody’s moving on, right. And again, I guess, you know, with some kind of a delayed response, or immediate response. I was supposed to have all kinds of exhibits in Prague this year, actually, last year, didn’t happen, for obvious reasons. I’m supposed to have one an installation, solar installation in its September in Prague. But if it’s going to happen, I’m not sure. Because again, the situation is quite dire. As you know, I’m not sure when I’m gonna get vaccinated in here, for example, and if they actually allow people to travel there or not, this is still in the air. Right? And it doesn’t matter, it will eventually happens. But all the new shows are no exhibits are basically all the new stuff I’m doing right, you know, or the Buddha for the last 20 or so many years. And it’s evolving constantly. So it’s a pioneering journey for me, period. I’m not sure what I’m going to do next day or in the next week or next year. I have no clue. Right? It’s happened by itself.

Matthew Dols 59:20
I don’t even know what I’m doing this evening. So it’s fine.

Lumir Hladik 59:23
Great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 59:24
any topics you want to talk about that I

Lumir Hladik 59:26
haven’t brought up. Going back to the first discussion we had maybe even a priori switched on the recording was the the question, you know, who is an artist who is what constitutes art or not? It’s funny because I, I see all kinds of strange things happening in the art world where you see this use especially in the mainstream, all this new artist, he, he creates work by injecting color into bubble wrap. And so he did a picture from Sarah you know, like The garage that you know that big thing thing by injecting the ink into the bubbles.

Matthew Dols 1:00:09
harness. Yeah,

Lumir Hladik 1:00:10
yeah, it was it was like yesterday or something. I don’t know if that’s art or not, but because sometimes a lot of folks are impressed by tediousness. You’ve seen a lot of that saying, Oh my god, he built a Eiffel Tower out of 15 million toothpicks. For example, I go, wow, you know, it took him 15 years to do that. And they’re impressed. Right.

Matthew Dols 1:00:34
So that actually is impressive, though. Like, just just by sheer devotion to the project, I will give that impressive. Now, on the other hand, building some Lego thing, and calling that a piece of art. That’s a fine line for me.

Lumir Hladik 1:00:51
No, no, but but again, via talking art or being impressed by Yeah, I can be as well impressed by somebody running fast, like the Teignmouth 100 meters in three seconds. You know, that’s impressive, right? Does that art?

Matthew Dols 1:01:07
It’s a tough one, because like, okay, I go back to when I was a kid, I remember in like fifth grade, I went to the Smithsonian, and I saw this piece by this guy, James Hampton, where that he, he made this thing, okay, it’s the most magnificent thing. I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. It’s a it’s a throne room that he built to the second coming of Jesus Christ that he he made in a garage that he rented that nobody else knew about. And the only time that they found this thing was after he died, and he wasn’t paying rent, suddenly, the people were like, Hey, what’s this thing, and they went, and they found this entire throne room that he built from garbage from the schools, because he’s a janitor in the DC school system. And this guy had been working on this thing for decades. And he never intended anybody else to see it other than Him and the second coming of Jesus Christ. And then he wrote 500 page volumes that were written in a language that only he and Jesus, the second coming of Jesus Christ would understand. I love that work, meet the pure need to make that work, and never show it to anybody is to me sort of like the truest form of making an art piece. Yeah, I agree. It was magnificent.

Lumir Hladik 1:02:34
Yeah. But still, you know, again, bubble wrap or toothpicks? I’m not sure. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:02:40
So there is a, there is a thing these days, you’re right that like, if it looks like people put a lot of effort or time into something that people think it’s valuable.

Lumir Hladik 1:02:52
Yeah, that’s the thing about effort and time, you’re right that it has, it has a mystical or mysterious value. And that’s why I would say, in my opinion, people value expensive things. Because it takes a lot of time to do stuff. And then it’s expensive. And so what happens is, think about like a fairy tale that making some something for a long time. It eats your time, your life away, you basically, it’s your life, encapsulated in something. And my theory is that it’s the stairway to heaven, you’re basically buying your immortality by buying expensive things, whatever has big value. It’s a piece of time you’re buying from other people in order to gain gain immortality.

Matthew Dols 1:03:53
Wait, is the artist gaining immortality or the person who buys it?

Lumir Hladik 1:03:58
The person who buys it, okay? Right. So it’s sort of like a member in in Renaissance or Baroque that would be the the carpenter somebody, they did the furniture or some kind of piece, it took him 15 years to make it or 12 I remember 12 years, you know, made all the out of you know, ivory in lace or whatever. Okay. And so at that time, that piece was would cost like today in today’s money, let’s say $20 million, or something. So that’s exactly a good example of that, like, you know, it’s ingenuity, whatever time and so on. Again, same thing with gold or metals rare because they take some more time and more effort to get them out. Then they’re more rare. They’re more expensive so that immediately you’re buying your your immortality,

Matthew Dols 1:04:49
right but I mean, does does that. So does Rarity increase the value? Because this is something that like we as artists sometimes think about like or at least I think about like, it’s I do I want to make a lot of pieces, or a few pieces. I mean, you know, like, if I make, let’s say, a series of work, do I present all, let’s say 50 pieces that I pulled together that I think are really quite strong, or do I only put out into the world 10 amazing pieces, like so they does the exclusivity increase value, or does it decrease the value?

Lumir Hladik 1:05:28
That that’s where when it becomes really complicated, because we both know, we both know that, that we have Picasso who painted, if not mistaken, 18,000 paintings, okay. Not including the napkins he drew on? exclusive of napkins? Yeah, 18,000 it still doesn’t diminish the value of each as well. Then you have the other side of the coin somebody like their mayor of fun Delft, young Vermeer, from Delft, who painted how many 42? And all his life, which I do, I do or like the He’s like, My God, okay. They’re very fond of 42. So it’s, I think that’s, that’s not the issue, you cannot manipulate that whatever. Because again, this is, then it comes to the point of quality of the algorithm, and the quality of the of your celebrity, which is the notoriety how, how many people know you? So I won’t even go there, because then we have to go into a quantum computing here. Okay, that means like, how to calculate a value of something. Right? It’s triangulated. Okay, between the inherently essential marriage of the of the algorithmic of the the formal system of court art, and then the perception of the public? Did they get it or not? Then the actual market itself, which is working with both entities, basically. Right. Okay.

Matthew Dols 1:07:02
But I’ll ask it specifically for you and your work. I know that you may you did action work in your early career you do currently, I know you do drawings, you’ve done sculpture. But I also have seen that you’ve done what you’re calling arc g clay archival prints. So like, what, what was the decision to make something like as you play archival print, because that becomes a thing that can be reproduced. So now, that’s sort of almost a different genre. Okay, I know what I’m getting to what I’m getting to is in art school, and like, when we’re young, they’re always telling us to like, choose a thing and become a master of it, like be a be a, you know, an amazing sculptor, or an amazing painter, or an amazing performance artist, whatever it is, focus on that thing and make that sort of your signature thing, that’s, that’s your style, that’s what you’re known for whatever word you want to put to it. You have somehow to migrate envy, slash admiration, been able to transcend all that so that you have moved from action work into drawing into sculpture, and also being able to do prints. So are they all linear to you? Or do you sort of treat the print differently than you do? Let’s say the sculptures,

Lumir Hladik 1:08:23
because no difference? Okay? Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, it’s sometimes it’s kind of a standard. So for example, in action art, usually, you have, you have the original negatives, you can do a print from that, or you have a negative and you just say, limited edition, that’s a standard in the industry. So I inherited that I didn’t invent that. Same with them, let’s say the movies, they will be three, you know, a limited edition of three of each. And some of them are being already sold. So that’s fine. And then eight comes the other work I do is basically this combination of objects, sculptures readymades combination with with you know, it’s, it’s, it’s liquid, it’s fluid is all of that, right? And so, it’s all all the same doesn’t matter to me, again, I don’t consider something old or you are different, whatever. It’s, it’s, it’s my work, so I have to stand for it. Right. It’s like,

Matthew Dols 1:09:31
Well, like I think back to a lot of like the, like the happenings and the performance art in I went to school in San Francisco. So I think a lot about San Francisco like Chris Burton and those that gang, right, and how the performances were one thing and of course, I wish I was there present for the actual original performance. But now like the images of the performance or the video, other the documentation has now become sort of a representation of the performer. And so like, Is that enough? Or it? Was it the original thing that was the more important thing. So like, I guess it’s sort of the difference of documentation as an art form versus the performance as an art form.

Lumir Hladik 1:10:15
So the, the opinion is that the action itself is that it actually happened is the substantial thing. And then the documentation because nobody could have been some, in my case, or going back to others, moto extemporize, eco Vanda corral, Mila, all these people, sometimes there were some friends around, sometimes, there was no one. Okay. And so, the main Mairead of the action art or performance art is that you actually make it happen. So it’s sort of think about, like, say, the, my piece when I went to it was in 81, I went to the forest for an hour, blindfolded at night, in an unknown unknown road, and then stop Nate the line me my finger, you know, where I stopped and went back the next night, I tried to stop right in front of the line, again, blindfolded at night. So what you do is you work your tools, in this case, is not let’s say, a canvas or brush or chisel or something, it is your body. It’s the landscape, it’s the time of day. And it’s the thought, it’s basically your intent is combined with the actually, your your ergonomics and ecology, whatever it’s, that’s, that’s the tools, that’s the ingredients over your installation, call it let’s say or intervention, whatever our action, right, so that you have to make it happen in order to claim that it actually be so far, you have to actually do it in not just the thought doesn’t come. And then you document that mean, there’s a proof that you’ve done it. And the proof is then a limited edition of the proof has a value, which is then presenting the the actual happened you actually action we actually act.

Matthew Dols 1:12:26
Okay, but what So then, on a side note of that, like I’m thinking back to Chris burden, like I love one of the his pieces, the one where he gets shot in the arm, kind of Yeah. If I could afford it, and it’d be if it was even available. If I could buy that bullet. I will. Right, like so like, so is it the documentation? Or is it even also like, could you present slash sell put on the market? Whatever? Like if, for instance, what you’re saying about the blindfolded thing? So like, do you still have that blindfold? like is that a piece that has then become a documentation of that action that is then available to be presented?

Lumir Hladik 1:13:08
No, I don’t. And if there was at that time was not considered in material, it was really not important that the again, this is funny, because action art is the actual act you do is that the beast, not any object. The only exception is that I did this piece, which called somewhere and nowhere where the friend drove me blindfolded for the whole day somewhere in you know, in Czechoslovakia, and back and under the condition that he won’t ever until his death reveal to anyone where we went. So I didn’t know. And I still don’t know. He’s still alive. But he never divulged that to anyone. That was the condition. And then we drove for like four hours, I don’t know somewhere. And then we stopped for about a few minutes. And he took me out of the car and I sat down there was a meadow because it was grass, I can feel it. And I blocked a piece of grass a blade of grass and took it with me. And this is the only exception. I still have that piece of grass. In a sort of like a bookmark. Okay. I still have that that’s the only exception

Matthew Dols 1:14:31
was like I remember being in art school and seeing Matthew Barney exhibition for the first time and how he while he creates these fantastical worlds and all this kind of stuff. He also then presents, the objects that he produces that are part of the films that he creates and kind of like the objects within it also then become part of the presentation of the work itself. So that’s why asking,

Lumir Hladik 1:14:57
yeah, because what he did was good. Have a another chapter in, you know, and in this kind of art because you’re talking, right, we started happenings in the 60s. And then it evolved to performance of action art, and installations, conceptual art, so whatever, body art, land art, you know, like we have all those terms. And then eventually it stopped and then world moved into installations. And now we have again, we have stuff like interventions, for example. So I circled back, for example, with the animals I, you know, I’m doing, I called it intervention, but it’s an interspecies bio intervention. I think it’s going to nobody is doing that. So I think I’m just pioneering that.

Matthew Dols 1:15:49
I’m unaware of having heard of that before, but I’m not always on top of everything. So

Lumir Hladik 1:15:53
yeah, so far, so far. I know, I’m the only one.

Matthew Dols 1:15:57
Okay, good. All right. You know, you brought up sort of like concepts and ideas and all this kind of stuff. One thing that I’ve noticed a lot, and I bitch about a lot on this podcast, is the need for text and written statements to sort of validate or explain your artwork. Do you do a lot of these? Do you appreciate having to do a lot of these?

Lumir Hladik 1:16:19
I accepted this part of the practice. Fair enough. I noticed, you know, some, some artists have really hard time to, to express or to describe what they do as well. But again, you know, it’s kind of part of the game, I was ahead of the game, but it’s part of the the practice, then, at the same time, maybe some people I’m talking, the viewers need a little bit of a nudge. And then on my part, I usually do the work. That means I don’t think about it. It’s an intuitive thing, like I have no, and I swear here, okay. I don’t have any jurisdiction over my art, what I’m doing, I basically wake up or a walk or a drive, and I see it finished in front of my eyes. And then I just go and do it. Okay. And then I think about it for days, weeks, months. And then eventually, I realize, what is it about? Much later, I have to dig and dig and dig, for example. I did, I had to show an installation show in Ottawa A few years ago, together with ez kovanda. He came over and we had this exhibit together. It was called polar transparence. And I had some objects there, where I had no idea what is it about? where it came from? What does it represent? No. And eventually, suddenly, I was driving and go, Oh, I get it. Okay. He was, I would say, percolating oppression from an accident. What happened in Czech Republic. Few years ago, there were two girls who drove in a car. And they were both named Nicola. They want to know who is driving was driving 160 kilometers an hour. And she was texting and talking on the phone. behaving totally crazy. She was 21. And eventually, obviously, that it didn’t work. They crashed and she died. The other one was actually videotaping on her iPhone the whole time. What happened? And then suddenly, you see this, this is horrible. What the fuck are you doing? and silence. And the phone was running, still running. And then you hear somebody coming over opening the door of the crash car, and she’s Oh, this one is still breathing. And you hear it on the phone because there was not a podcast, but it was, you know, it was it was running video. They were sharing about how fearless they were in terms of their life. doing everything wrong, and daring to destiny. Right. And Nicola and Nicola. And then after all this, I go, Oh, these objects are basically doors from the car, in a way. Oh, yeah, I

Matthew Dols 1:19:30
often find that it takes you know, three to five years after completing a series. So like, I could work on a series for two or three years and then and then when I’m done with it, then I still need more time and distance to be able to reflect back on what was happening in my life. What was I thinking about at that time? What were circumstances, you know, how are my jobs and my personal life going and how did that enter, interact into my art before I can really sort of have that distance And perspective to be able to say, that’s what that work was about.

Lumir Hladik 1:20:04
Yeah, right. Yeah, it takes a long time.

Matthew Dols 1:20:06
I know. But the problem is, is like when you’re done with it, and you present it to the world, they expect you to have a statement ready, that’s eloquent, that I’m like, I’m not ready for that statement. Like, unless you want to wait and another three years, then I can give you a good statement. But I’m also finding a lot that a curators are a great help. Like, I found a lot of freelance curators that like having them come in and take a look and ask questions and stuff has actually been very helpful to find that perspective a little bit faster than that maybe naturally code on my own. Yeah,

Lumir Hladik 1:20:41
I agree. So I do the same as well. But still, they cannot dig into your head until you find it yourself. Many times they, you know, in case of Petra resig, that when he described that piece with the mirror, he knew more than I did at that time. So he was right. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:21:04
indeed. All right. Let’s wrap this up. I got two final questions. One is, could you name me like three notable artists that you think people should be paying more attention to?

Lumir Hladik 1:21:17
Three. Okay, not 3000. Yeah, you

Matthew Dols 1:21:20
could do more. I just randomly chose the number three, it’s fine.

Lumir Hladik 1:21:24
I was influenced, really, by, you know, us, boys. But everybody knows us as boys. Right. So mature. But then then, you know, I have some stuff which is maybe unusual, like Mr. tibone. ski, like Gothic check. Gothic painting. That was a major influence for me. Period. Okay,

Matthew Dols 1:21:47
okay. Wait, yeah, let me differentiate this contemporary artists.

Lumir Hladik 1:21:51
Oh, not not Gothic.

Matthew Dols 1:21:55
Joseph boys I’m good with but like, God.

Lumir Hladik 1:21:58
It’s funny. I have I have one favorite guy who’s a painter. And he teaches that thing. It’s in San Francisco. And it’s no mystery Hoff. Okay, so I don’t know how many people know about him. But that’s that’s he’s definitely great.

Matthew Dols 1:22:15
What kind of work does he do painting, painting

Lumir Hladik 1:22:16
painting, but it’s, it’s different. That’s it, you have to check it out. So anyway,

Matthew Dols 1:22:22
I will put links in the show notes, right. Just anymore to others.

Lumir Hladik 1:22:27
I cannot think about anybody right now. Okay, that’s a good one. Yeah. All right.

Matthew Dols 1:22:32
Lovely. Last question. Any advice for the next generation?

Lumir Hladik 1:22:38
Listen to your inner self, that means you have to follow your instincts, nothing else. It’s like, like you said before they teach in school, like you have to be this you have to, you have to be consistent in that whatever focus to be best in this vessel. That’s all bullshit. Okay? So absolutely not nothing. There’s no rules, there’s only one rule. And that it’s, it’s you follow instinct, and you don’t get sidetracked by anything. And then the last nugget is that it’s funny. It’s kind of I know, it’s a cliche. It’s like from the book, The Alchemist with everybody knows, for example, and when Santiago asks, Is that English and he goes, why don’t all the outcome is fine if you are able to convert, you know, lead to gold? Like, what stops him? Why, why? Why is not everybody doing it? And the answer was, because they’re only looking for the gold. They’re not willing to do the journey. They only looking for the gold. And so in my opinion, the gold is the last thing you should think about.

Matthew Dols 1:23:58
Lovely. Well, thank you very much.

Lumir Hladik 1:24:00
Okay, thanks, Matt. That was fun. It was great.

Matthew Dols 1:24:07

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com