Transcript for Episode 161 – Art Collector + Historian, Sveva D’antonio, Collezione Taurisano (Naples, Italy)

Recorded March 6, 2021
Published April 6, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/art-collector-historian-sveva-dantonio-collezione-taurisano-naples-italy/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?

Sveva Dantonio 0:15
Yes, my name is Sveva Dantonio.

Matthew Dols 0:19
All right. And, uh, you’re in Italy, correct?

Sveva Dantonio 0:23
Yeah, I’m in Italy. I’m in Naples, which is in the south of Italy. Actually,

Matthew Dols 0:27
one of the first things I don’t know, you’re an art collector, at least that’s artists story. And this is by training. So they I always wonder how do people become that in the first place? So where are your parents creative? How your parents art historians? Like how did you come to even having this interest in the arts? Sure,

Sveva Dantonio 0:43
actually, my father is an engineer. My mother is a journalist. And they didn’t really have this artistic background, actually, that my mother has the convention, when we were very little me and my brother that every Sunday, she was bringing us to a different museum enables you to visit our city relaxed to discover our city has citizen, which was something very annoying for us, because we were kids and we want to just to play in the park on a Sunday morning, especially like you’re here in Naples. I mean, we have mostly like sunny days. So of course, you want to always like enjoy to be out and to play as a kid. But still, she was forcing us somehow, but then little by little we started to enjoy, because actually we were part of the group called ameche, then we’ll show the Capodimonte them. So masala Capodimonte, Capodimonte museum is one of the most important museum here in compania, which is the region where we live is in Naples. And it was actually the red john. So these main big big villas, big, big buildings, a palazzos, that the borbone family built at that time. And you have to know that thinkable demand that they have the most important collection of porcelain, you know, porcelana all over the word because there was the industry, there was the Xen, now the fabric that was producing the porcelain, very pure type of person. And over there any company motor you have these amazing Bosco this amazing Park, where of course used to be, or says, you know, like very Prince and Princess way of leaving the park. But now it’s an amazing park where you can enjoy the sun and you can enjoy the museum and on and on all the important collection of the museum. So we started to join this club of friends of Capodimonte museum. We were kids, we were like 11, then my brother was four, not even four. But then we get used to it. And what we were doing at the end of the year with the machete, Capodimonte, that with the Friends of the museum, was that every kid shows a church enabled, enables where we have, like 1000s of church, given all the different domination we have, in all the period of last centuries. And so each kids decided to choose a church, and to have it as a kid somehow, you know, has heritage, and we use the word like these open days for Museum, here enabled, so back then now, it seems very like are things from us. Very, very strange thought. But anyway, so we were explaining the history of the church, to the visitors to the passers by, we were even like, saying to people in the street, come come inside the church, we have to tell you something about the church that you don’t know. So really, like, get people curious about something that it’s every day over there. I mean, it’s the church. I mean, people are always in the street here enabled, so you pass by a church, and you don’t even like look at the building, look at the first say the look at the material, they’re built off. And each material, each form that the facade is made of tells you the story. That’s your story of that area attached to the story of the prince or the princess that commissioned this church, and that if you enter inside, oh my god, there is like an entire universe, of relationship of materials of recess and whatever that you will never know, if you don’t even like enter inside the church. So I think that these, for me, personally, was the first encounter with art. And that’s from where I started, you know, it was so very, like, familiar, a personal encounter with this group of friends of the museum. And then of course, I did the classical assume you’re in Naples. So So classically, cm means that you study Greek is translating. You’re more focused in the humanistic part of each topic. And of course, I was pretty much focused in a sort of art as well. But still, it was everything was Do you like historical and traditional, and then I decided to do for my master. So I did for the first three years design and fashion and architecture as well at the university. And then I changed the because I had the professor was truly like inspired. He was like, this type of process professor that challenge you a lot, you know, and I was this type of student that wants these type of things, you know, wants to be challenge wants to discover more wants to have a trigger, you know, in order to be like, pushed to the more you know, I was kind of like a perfectionist somehow. So I really like like this type of Professor. So anyway, he was a professor of history of art. But he has also like this relationship with cinema. So I was always into art, but still into an art that was intersectional. You know, somehow, it was really like multidisciplinary, it was really like not not only my interest in art, it has never been only in art for itself. There’s always been art and something else. And so for the first three years at the university was art and cinema. So I was really intrigued by the relationship between art and cinema. And especially, I was drawn by Lou or Alison. So I was really like obsessed by Shalu Kadar was obsessed with like, it was my I was a maniac about him. And about all of these films. I had steel in my parents house, these old chapters of historical cinema. I don’t know if you are like familiar with this

Matthew Dols 6:38
familiar, but not well versed.

Sveva Dantonio 6:44
Exactly. So I had, I mean, all of the chapter we start to cinema, which we like tells you chapters, different chapter of different period of history that he was like reenacting, but like the the scar, luckily, you know, in his films, especially in this movie swallows, you know, and then I decided to do a specialization in history of art, the silly Naples, you know, different University, where I had the opportunity as well to do an exchange in France, and then in Brea in Brussels, in Belgium. So I was kind of like developing, you know, my, my conception and my notion of sort of art, dealing with the French part as well, which was completely different. I noticed that I mean, being an Italian studying is sort of art, I was not studying the part of the study that was pretty much connected with the, with the French study of art. And I think that pretty much in Europe, you have this sort of shift everywhere. Maybe, if I would have gotten in Prague, or in Germany, I would have studied a different part of a Slovak that I didn’t study in being an Italian, you know, so it was pretty much you know, reaching my hardcore, you know, my my path of studies, but then still, I noticed that there was a lack of contemporary art. I mean, being the student and Italian student, and then in your polygon student, year, maybe, you know, maybe you don’t, we are pretty much being artists. So I’m pretty much into Baroque into Caravaggio, into rokoko. into Reubens in all of these masters. And then there is death. It’s it’s finished. It’s the end of the time, it’s the end of the year is the end of the history of art. There is nothing afterwards. So we have like a couple of Professor. Oh, once I remember, like the most avant garde lesson that I had was a monography. So still a monography talking about monography about the castle, that the end of the time, that’s it, nothing else. So being like 20 I don’t even remember how old they were. I mean, I was like, 2223, I don’t remember. But I wanted to know something about what’s going on. When I was 22. I mean, there were parties at that time. Of course they were, but they weren’t subject at the university. So my experience of contemporary art at that time was being a self taught. I was a tuition. I was like an art historian, but I know nothing about contemporary art. So I start to go in contemporary galleries, which here Naples again, we have a very strong and old tradition of contemporary art galleries. You should remember that blue familiar, which is one of the gods of the first gallery. I mean, maybe he even invented the being the galleries that maybe didn’t exist as a profession before him or family I’m talking about. He was from here from the region and he brought here artists like Can the war roll. Like Joseph boys, I mean, all of the very important artists of the 70s of the 60s and whatever. And he started the gallery really like near my home where I live now with my husband, which is like incapsula mastery. And it’s an a very ancient and historical building, I was very, like tiny, tiny. It was an apartment, actually, where he invited that is and of course, for artists like Andy Warhol or even Joseph boys, that was kind of like exotic, you know, to be here in Naples, and to visit with Julio, and to with tragedy Caserta all of these grander palazzos that we’re telling you a story of, kind of like an ancient empire of Renaissance, you know, all these very important part of our history, you know, and so I started to go in the galleries and I discovered a word. I mean, all of a sudden, I said, Oh, my God, there is art coming up, you know, while I while I am leaving, and I was pretty surprised. But I mean, I was like, completely fascinated by it. It had so strong appeal on me that I couldn’t like me really, like I couldn’t stop. And that’s what the start of my career, let’s say, my path in contemporary art, I was completely like, into it. And what I valued the most, was the dialogue that I could have with the galleries then with the artist at that time. And it’s also how I started my relationship with my husband, you know, if you want to know, some gossip, this is the gossip for me. I mean, like, really, it was a human relationship that we started because we have, of course, we have some friends in common. But then the first appointment, we had that it was in a museum, because we had our Okay, you were interested in contemporary art, yes, I’m studying it, okay, I can bring you to a show. That’s how it all started. And now it’s more than 10 years that we are together, and our passion, our main passion that really like keep us together is art. And I always say that, if it wouldn’t have been like this, it would have become like a lover, you know, something like a third person in our relationship, because it’s really like this. Instead, sharing this passion. It’s like having a baby, that we are nurturing every day they’re feeding, giving, you know, milk and food, taking care of it and trying it every day to understand how we can do it better. How can we can develop new relationships with artists, with creators with galleries all over the world? So that’s how it started the collection that we somehow inherited from his father as well, that he was pretty big collector prayed like, a Yeah, into art from his era, actually. So he started to collect artists from the transplant warrior movement released. Yeah, I mean, like, really small movement. So I mean, artists that were saying something at the time he was leaving, was really like, they were really contemporary artists. And the very important thing as well about these artists, was that they were not afraid of saying something even politically incorrect. I mean, they didn’t give a damn about saying something that was against the state or against the tradition, you know, they were pretty much against everything that was traditional and normal and politically correct. Yes, I dare say. And so really, like we we thought that this was a very interesting line to take as a collection. And so when we started to, let’s say, recollect, 10 years ago, we decided that pretty much will do the same. So we valued a lot, I mean, having the possibility to collect artists that our age that are alive, and that are saying something about the now I mean, what’s happening with like, today, and even like tomorrow, or like yesterday, not like an artwork that too much project itself in an eternal future, that we could not really like, perceive and think about and project. I mean, we want to know something about the time we are living now because I think that what will be left after us I think the collection will keep his life forever will be the narrative of this time. So people will visit our collection or will hear the story of our collection. And I think that pieces by pieces, they will create the narrative of that time, they will say, okay, so these people were collecting this type of work. So it was happening this at that time. So that’s why I mean, for example, there is this artist is influential, but that the peak, the human figure, with this type of shape, but with this type of form, adding this texture, you know, it tells you something about as well, you know how the market was going wrong at that time? And I think that, I mean, it’s so it’s so powerful that you cannot like MIT to collect something else. But of course, it is my very personal opinion. I don’t have to say that this is like it has to be for all the collector of contemporary arts, of course,

Matthew Dols 15:37
no, this entire conversation is your personal opinion. You are not talking on behalf of anyone else, just to be clear. Okay, we but you just brought up the market. The you at one point, you did work at a gallery? Correct?

Sveva Dantonio 15:51
Yeah, I was running a contemporary gallery for six years, actually. So after I graduated, I sent my CV to this gallery it was that I was pretty much interested in because the program was very strong and politically engaged. And it’s darrien, Mordecai and Cecily, and I started as an assistant the first year, and then I decided to join as a partner of gallery. It was an amazing experience. And I learned so much in the six years, because the focus of the gallery was not only in the political engage artists, but really like how the artists can have a relationship with the community. So every time we were inviting the artists in the gallery, Molokai and Cecily, we were asking as well, of course, if the artist wanted to involve the community to engage a dialogue with the community. And I think that it was so enriching not only for the gallery and the artists, but also for the community, that at the end of the game, I mean, people from all the coming to Syria, and we’re thinking that we were kind of like a proloquo, you know, like a nonprofit organization, rather than a commercial gallery. Because we were doing something that was easy to understand for them as well, I mean, because they were doing it with us. You know, for example, we did this performance with marinella senatore, which is an Italian artist, and she’s a performative artist. So what we did, we did the musical with the entire community of Monica. So we do, we did like an open call, trying to involve people that were dealing with music with dance with theater, with traditional things like puppets, you know, in CC, we have these very, very old traditional puppets with puppets, so very, like, you know, high art and low art. I mean, we like high knowledge and low knowledge, very popular knowledge, but very, like artistic, philosophical knowledge. There were also like, historian that were talking about history of the specific characters of the Sicilian history of that little town, which is Monica. So I mean, very, again, very intersectional project, but then again, it was super emotional, because you work together with the community. And the artist was not these sales, Ex Machina that was deciding, are you do this, you do that? No, it was like completely the opposite. She was saying, you say me what you want to do inside the music on and then we’re going to do it together, everyone together. So it was really like pretty much empowering, you know, because if you give people the stage, to do something where they truly believe boem It’s like an explosion, really, at the end of the performance. I was kind of like doing the project managing staff. So organizing all the PR or like mad with the police, with the local administration, or doing all of these bureaucracies I was in charge with the most boring part I was in charge. So I was pretty much stress, you know, because of course, I mean, the only people that were not like, of course, understanding what we were doing was the police in our local administration that were giving me all of these papers to sign. And then at the end of the day, while we will do in the performance, they will, we’re not doing their duty, you know, I was doing it for them. So why I signed all of these papers, so if you’re not doing what you signed, but anyway, let’s forget about these. The most important thing at the end was that at the end of this musical we built, we didn’t even build because we had this amazing dome in the lower part of the city, because Monica is has got like an upper part and a lower part is like cave. So you have terraces so you have an upper part and a lower part. And in this lower part there is the most important dome of the city, which is Romani, some theatrum, some Peter stone, and on the stairs of this long we build somehow over stage where there was this entire orchestra of adults and so people from like 12 to 3030 something years also pretty young. That we’re performing this original soundtrack that made by the people of Monica called as well a person from either rakatan or even Palermo that came and brought this machine that makes no. So we were like, was ninth 10th of August, Cecily, the understand Cecily, dental workers, so we’re pretty hard, actually.

Matthew Dols 20:25
Yeah, hot, humid,

Sveva Dantonio 20:26
and it was snowing. And it was snowing with this orchestra. I mean, it was pretty much it was something I mean, I will remember from my life, of course, people, I mean, worse, we’re getting like, super emotional. And I, of course, I was crying. Because for me, it was kind of like a success, because I arrive at the end of it, you know, without the police arresting me or forever. You understand the power of art, when it’s without any filter, when it’s really like straightforward, and tries to involve you, even though you know nothing about it. theoretically speaking, you know, you know nothing about relational art, about all of these psycho analysis inside, of course, the process that the artist initiate, you know, nothing about it. But it’s good, it’s super good, because you really, like you purely, you know, interact with the core of it. And I think it was a huge success, huge success.

Matthew Dols 21:27
Yeah, it’s very common complaint that I hear about, sort of, I’ll sort of put in air quotes, like fine arts, the sort of barrier to entry for people who are not either trained or knowledgeable of it, that some people feel it’s unapproachable, whether it’s galleries, or museums or performances, that that’s a very difficult thing for a lot of the public to figure out how to even find a way to start to engage in it. Like, for instance, my wife, she was not raised with art, it was nothing. And so like, more or less, I’ve been her filter to try and sort of get her into it and sort of you slowly get her sort of more interested in. And it’s a, it’s a very difficult thing. And it takes many years, oftentimes for people and cultures and communities to sort of grow into sort of a getting past that barrier to entry.

Sveva Dantonio 22:18
Yeah, it’s Yeah, it’s pretty, it’s pretty much what you say. I mean, being a collector, now, it’s a lot of time and beating pretty hard to active on social media. I have a lot of people who asked me out, but how can I start the collection? Because I mean, it’s frightening, you know, to go in galleries and to ask for prices, even to ask, like the meaning of the word or whatever the stories behind it. And I said, I mean, first of all, the first step is like, don’t be afraid to ask because I mean, the question will never be silly. I

Matthew Dols 22:53
mean, we don’t have silly question. We have silly answer. Maybe. I’ve had some circumstances where I’ve gone into galleries, and they and I’ve been like, yeah, I’m interested in how much this is. And they were like, and they would say, like, I’m sorry, who are you? And they would like question who I was before, they would even be willing to give me the price as in like, sort of, like I was being interviewed as to whether I’m worthy to even know the value of this thing. So it does happen that that that bear, I understand where that barrier comes in. And I understand why people some people are very sort of scared of that issue. But it’s not the most common thing. It only has only happened to me a few times in my life. So I hope that it’s getting better.

Sveva Dantonio 23:37
Yeah, it’s a medical one attitude that galleries have most likely lately, you know, to have this kind of has not been the posche attitude towards anyone that is not in their circle.

Matthew Dols 23:50
It’s a hard balance because like on the one hand, it makes them feel more exclusive, which sort of elevates their status in some ways. But in other ways it often could turn away people who could potentially become longtime collectors or big collectors over time and so they it’s a it’s a difficult balance arrived at being a gallery owner in this day and age.

Sveva Dantonio 24:12
Sure, sure, because you never know who is going to like to step into your gallery I mean, I mean rich people or people that can afford art do not have like label a tag on their shirt saying I’m a rich person, I’m gonna buy you the entire gallery. I’m gonna get the like the show sold out. You don’t have it like with me, I mean, being the galleries for six years doing art fairs all over the world, but really like all over the world, in New York, in in Basel in Paris, in London, you never know. I was never questioning these people. I was always like willing right to speak with them. And then of course, then little by little to investigate if they were really interested about the work and the artists and then starting these communication, because you can have super rich person that comes into your booth with one euro cloth, which most of the time which people are like these, Erin, you are an example of it.

Matthew Dols 25:11
I used to work at Banana Republic clothing store. And when I first started working there I was the clientele specialists. So as a sort of a personal shopper, and one of the people that I worked for said, okay, you have to learn the shoes and handbags. So like when a customer walks in, you judge them off of whether their shoes and their handbags are any good. And if they’re any good, then they’re going to theoretically spend a lot of money. And I was like, Fuck you. That’s a stupid idea. Because there are lots of people with excellent taste lots of money, that do not want to show their wealth off in their the way they present themselves in the street so that you cannot judge, you know, theoretically like a book by its cover kind of thing. And it ended up like some of my best clients who would spend $10,000 at Banana Republic where people who came in and shorts and flip flops Exactly.

Sveva Dantonio 25:58
Yeah, totally. Yeah. You never know. You never know.

Matthew Dols 26:03
All right. But the reason why I asked about you working at a gallery is that I find this this sort of balance thing. Very interesting, because generally collectors don’t also work in galleries. So like, how do you find that the the sort of the nature of the art market, having worked on the gallery side, as well as being on the collector side? Are you still happy with let’s say, like, the way the market works these days.

Sveva Dantonio 26:30
I’m not very happy about it. I’m not very happy about it. Because I mean, pre COVID, I think that we were all running at a very fast pace, that it was unsustainable for all of us. I mean, for all of us, all the actors of the artists. And I think that these fast pace affected the quality of the work we were seeing on the market, let’s be honest. And I’ve heard these from a lot of art advisor as well, from New York. So I mean, not like super conceptual, whatever French advisor that wants to see abstract painting and and French abstract painting. And that’s it. But a New Yorker advisor, they were saying listens wherever I cannot mind. And I cannot suggest advice anymore artworks, because they’re like so much low quality, because of course, the artists were in this loop of high production. That was nothing to do about quality, you know, instead now I have to say that we were forced to throw down everything, and I’ve done. I don’t know how many studio visits lately. And the quality is exceptional has ryzen I think that more than 100% is really like, it’s something that tells you a lot about how the system that we were all supporting before was unconceivable anymore.

Matthew Dols 28:00
Oh, yeah. I mean, I feel like to a certain extent, you know, I’ve worked in the the gallery system, I’ve worked in museums, I’ve worked in academia, I’ve done a little bit of everything in the industry. It’s broken. But I can’t seem to figure out what would be a better version of it. Do you? So like? So I’m gonna what I’m asking you a guess is? What would you How would you like it to be constructed? So let’s say the entire slate was wiped clean? How would you construct the arts industry, the arts market to benefit everybody?

Sveva Dantonio 28:39
Yeah, I think this is a big question is like the $1 million question. I don’t have the answer. I mean, not. I have my opinion, still. And I think it’s very simple. I mean, it’s very simple. Because I mean, the simplest thing, people don’t do it. I mean, it’s simple. Okay, forget about it. I will I will do the complicated way. But still, I mean, I think that it’s simple, because we have to focus on artists, you know. So I think that what we lost in the pre COVID, or I mean, like, still is not so much like this is the centrality of the artist, we should really like every one of us, put the artists at the center of this system and try to understand what to do in order to enable them to produce better to produce in a more sustainable way, in a more innovative way really like trying to using technology as well, in order to help them to produce better and to produce a in a more also like in a way that they are more aware of what they’re leaving right now and what we are all leading, you know, because of course, if you see it from the collectors point of view, what I like in a work of art is the way it investigates the period where Leaving, you know, as an investigator in a way that annville me, something that I cannot find in the news broadcasts, you know, a story that somehow maybe mass media do not want that I know, you know, somebody that is hidden, you know, something that is like a secret that majority of people do not have to know. And I want to see in are an alternative, you know, another way another perspective, to see the word, I want that an artwork, let me dream, you know, I don’t want like to sound too romantic. But still, I think that we need some romance in our life. And I think that our can give these to us in a very direct and straightforward way. So So what I would like the two will change will be reluctance, given the possibility to the artist, to be an artist, you know, to have the time to be in their studio, and just have the time to think just the time to do research, just have the time to speak with me, you know, and to being a collector, being a goddess being a curator, and to confront themselves, you know, saying ask them, I’m doing this research, no, I’m using this material to do that. What do you think about it, you know, and sometimes it helps a lot, you know, this confrontation, this comparison, this nurturing dialogue between human beings, because he said, if you don’t have the time to do this anymore, I think that we lose the most important part of the work of art with it, which is sharing process. At the end, it’s a sharing process, you know, sharing knowledge is sharing the research is sharing thoughts, sharing fears about everything that we are living for. And then I think another issue now, which is something that is going up recently, it’s the Eco sustainability, as they are our system, you know, we have to go green as well. It’s not something that that not affect us, because of course, our work is impacting as well on our world on the earth. So there is this growing green coalition between galleries that I highly recommend that to look into it, and to try to have more info from them, which is affecting all of us. And also lately, even Philips, the Auction House join this green coalition, which I found that it’s something that is like so evident as well, again, it’s it’s just a simple choice. I mean, it’s not like a question, do I have to join the green coalition? Of course, you have, still you’re thinking about it, sign it, and let’s see, I mean, you don’t even have to do a lot of research. It’s so evident, it’s so simple, that we all have to do this in order in order to survive guys in order to survive in order to live a happy and healthy life for all of us. Okay, I

Matthew Dols 33:13
want to go back a second, you were talking about the like the connectedness that you have when you get to have the time to talk with an artist and sort of listen to them and give feedback and this kind of stuff. And it sort of dawned on me like that, to me is a substantially better way to connect with artwork than the contemporary thing, which is of course artist statements, which I have a real problem with and as a general, but so like, from a collector standpoint, I totally get the idea that like connecting with discussing with giving feedback would be exponentially more engaging, and sort of nurturing of the whole relationship over like collector and artists kind of thing. More so than a written statement. So like, I guess, in the end, the question is like, how do you feel about artists statements as a whole

Sveva Dantonio 34:04
artist statement written by artist or

Matthew Dols 34:07
is that well, that’s actually sort of a sub question of it, like, should they be written by the artist? Or can they be written by a curator or some other ghost writer or whatever?

Sveva Dantonio 34:19
I think that artists cannot really like write their own artist statement somehow. Because because they are like too much into the work. And it’s something so personal and so I mean, it’s like being naked, you know, somehow, like when an artist accomplished an artwork, at the end is giving you part of his body parts of his soul. So and then his role his duties finish. I think that is the role of curators and art critics to write well written artists they do and it’s it’s the thing that I was asking to artists. A lot of time actually. And there was a question as well for award, we conceive with a collective of artists apparatus 22. They’re a Romanian collective. And we asked them, What do you want as an award to be? And they said, I, you know, sveva, I mean, of course, the acquisition is important. It’s like the first act of appreciation from a collectors are other work. But then what we would really love would be well written text by a curator. So actually, our award which is called because of many sons, which is going to be with the drama art person, let’s say at the end of August, will not be only the acquisition of a work inside the art fair, but also our Creator, Catalina Xu, t, which is the creator of the word will start the dialogue with the artists that is going to be the winner of the award. And with try, I mean, in a long period of time, it will be like a long term, commission for her to write a text about the artistic practice, and to let this text be useful for the artists for a long period. So to not like, use these texts for one week, and then it’s gonna be like, not useful anymore, but still try to like to be to go in deep in the work of the art and try to deliver him or her pretty much consistent text about their artistic practice. I mean, most of the time when I read artist statement from artists that I really like, just graduating from the academia, oh, my God, I mean, for them, I mean, they, it means I think that it means that they have no one that tells us listen, you cannot write the sort of things on the paper, write it for you on your diary for your agenda for your journal, but not like, to the public, you cannot deliver this sort of tax, you know, it’s gonna affect it badly your work at the end

Matthew Dols 37:05
was okay. Again, I’m from academia, I understand. They’re, I feel like they’re sort of our different art status or art statements that artists can create, like, there’s one that can be written for the general public to engage them emotionally and and expressively and all these kinds of, but then in academia, like there’s academic journals, and, you know, institutional exhibitions and these kinds of things. And they need, they almost need like a different artist statement that’s much more intellectual or much more sort of putting your work into an oeuvre so that you sort of see the context in the canon of how they fit in. That’s a different artist statement. And so what I find difficult about artists, that just the term artist statement as a whole, again, in air quotes, is that we, as practitioners of creating art, are generally not very good writers. And yet, we’re expected to be able to not only produce our whatever, in some elegant way, then we’re also expected to be able to eloquently write about it not just once, but probably like in three different ways, like to a collector, why is my work some potentially valuable or important to you and your collection versus the general public versus an institution? It’s just way too much work. Like, I mean, it’s hard enough just to make really engaging and interesting and evocative work, then I have, so I have to be able to like write about it eloquently in two different formats, depending on the need. It’s just, I wish that the system would allow for, for instance, curators to legitimately write the statements on our behalf and just like, except that because it’s exhausting for me.

Sveva Dantonio 39:00
Of course, yeah, yeah. It’s really exhausting. And then you have very, like, famous example. I mean, Jerry Saltz was an artist at the beginning. And he was very bad artist sexually. So then he turned in a very good writer. So what a better example I am, is one of the art critics that of course can be criticized a lot, but still that I admire because he says what he thinks that period that’s it. And I pretty much value these sort of art critics because I mean, for me, if you want to talk about art critic is like, bro, it’s like a big, big issue. And passion like being Italian. There is no more art critic articles is that for me when we don’t even have like, if I have to be honest and coherent with myself, not even a magazine in Italy that talks properly that talks properly about contemporary art. With the right language, it doesn’t mean that you write. It’s conceptual, is pervasive, whatever installation means that you are describing Well, the word we are, you’re only using some very, like difficult words one way or the other. And that’s it. I’m not understanding anything, your understanding may be less or maybe more, I don’t know, the general public is understanding nothing. And there may be thinking what they’re writing about.

Matthew Dols 40:28
Art criticism has been moved over to the general masses through likes on social media, like that’s the thing that now unfortunately defines whether something is quote, unquote, successful or not, or popular or not. An art criticism is incredibly useful and necessary, in many ways, but it’s also a pain in the ass because it’s, it’s more or less the gatekeepers, like the critics are like, if, if a critic doesn’t like you, as a person, even if you make amazing art, they can write a bad review and your career screwed. And so like, it’s a really difficult relationship,

Sveva Dantonio 41:07
but they do not have to know you personally,

Matthew Dols 41:10
would be marvelous. But unfortunately, most of them ask to also do interviews or meet you and stuff like this. And so they it’s a very, our industry is very difficult, because it’s not just done is your like, for me, it would be like, is your art great? And are you a good person, in the same way that you’d like you as a collector, like you have to not only a massive, great collection, but you should be a good person? You know, it’s like, if you’re an ass, I don’t want my work in your collection. Sure, sure. No,

Sveva Dantonio 41:40
no, that’s true. That’s true, that’s true, but somehow you know, art critics has another role other duty they should be in a way even more objective than all of us because they have to be they should be because they have to write eastery you know, they have to write somehow with a good perspective what we are living right now, but with the critical point of view, you know, with not only like accepting what is correct or what is not correct, but even like leaving their opinion and because, I mean, they have read more than us, they have some knowledge that of course, we do not have because we don’t do not do it every day that will give us another interpretation, you know of the work that will be like important that will last somehow maybe to last forever. I mean, like being an art historian Vasari. Of course, you know, maybe Vasari, Vasari has written the most important biography of all the artists of the 14th century. And he was really like given I think it was pretty objective person he was not like so, to the person I said, of course, it was like more intermediate a fellow rather than whatever, but still, he was trying really like to give you like the vision of that time giving you all the characters you know, there was the there was his the words that and they were doing this and that, and there was like a context you know, so that he was like criticizing this word. Instead now it’s really like, or it’s politically correct or the it’s not then the rat like this word about? How can a comment about work of art could be nice. Come on, let’s cancel this word from our vocabulary is not the word to commend contemporary art. Nice. Are you kidding me? Are you serious? Nice.

Matthew Dols 43:37
Cute is the word I hate.

Sveva Dantonio 43:40
Even worse, oh my god. Cute. Whatever. Cute.

Matthew Dols 43:44
Cute. A baby is cute. a work of art is cute. Yeah, hard is a cute, whatever. Like it’s the most nondescript word. I fucking hate

Sveva Dantonio 43:52
that word. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it’s a matter of language, as you were saying, before you use we should already like, put new meaning in old words. You know, there are a lot of words that we like lost their meaning. Like, for example, installation, freedom. female artists. Oh my God raised black artists that are all of these like transgender, whatever, LBGT whatever, let us you want to put inside it.

Matthew Dols 44:26
Well, I have to admit, okay, no, I take the position. And maybe I’m just old. I mean, I’m 47. So I’m of an older generation 31

Sveva Dantonio 44:34
I’m 31

Matthew Dols 44:37
you’re younger than me, you’re generally easily a generation younger than me. But as much as I respect the these groups, these this is LGBTQ plus the black the all these different sort of subgroups of stuff. I okay. I was I went and I taught in the Middle East. I was in the United Arab Emirates, and I was teaching Muslim women primarily at university about art, and like, so that was a thing. And they kept defining themselves as my work is about a Muslim woman. And I’m like, why do we have to differentiate? Why can’t it just be your work is good. That’s it like, and it doesn’t matter, that you’re a woman, and it doesn’t matter that you’re Muslim, and it doesn’t matter. Like, it’s just quality of work, merit, you know, and craftsmanship and whatever other words you want to put to it. And I feel like these sub segregating little groups is actually hurting the arts world, because now we’re, we’re separating, like, you know, I’m sure I haven’t met these people, but I’m sure there are people that like, only by LGBTQ work, or only by work by black Americans, or Africans, or whatever. And I know people that only collect Asian art. So I mean, I know this has existed. But I feel like as a whole, as a community as the arts world, it’s, it’s dangerous, because it’s, it’s really separating us instead of bringing us together.

Sveva Dantonio 46:13
I totally agree with you. No, I totally agree with you. Because I mean, it’s giving like people and artists, we like labels, you know, you segregate them again. And even more, I think, you know, now we have seen a lot, I mean, shows about black American artist, African artists. But only like these, as you said subgroup of people variant is more some group of people being gathered together. But we do not see that much a show about our show, with artists that are connected, because there is a concept that they are developing in different ways. But still, there is the work that holds the concept and the context, you know, working together. So of being a woman, of course, I want to support women artists, of course, I want 100%. In fact, I mean, in our collection, majority of artists are women, but not because we chose it from the beginning, but because maybe we have a sensibility that connects with this type of work. And I’m talking about the work, not the artist being the agenda of whatever you know. And so what I always say also, with the Curatola project that I do, is that I’m not inviting you because you are a woman or because you are black, I’m inviting you, because I’m interested in your work. And I think that can have a good connection with the concept I have in mind. You know, like, for example, I’m creating the show, in early June in a gallery in Vienna. And I’ve invited two artists, one from the United States and one from South Africa. And then asked them to invite another artist, each of them is inviting another artist. So I really like try to push them to perpetuate this concept of inclusion, you know, that has to come from from artists itself as well. And it has worked pretty good actually. And then at the end, I mean, artists from very different continent of America, really like New York, this New York State. And then two of them are from New York State. And then the other two of them are from South Africa. One is from Johannesburg, and one from Pretoria. Pretoria Come on, it’s very prophetic place. But they when this concept in this dial that we are developing that is around collective nostalgia, they found a lot of things in common at the end. So there was pretty much most of the things that they had in common, rather than the things that were dividing them being from me, to them a black does matter role. I mean, at the end of the day,

Matthew Dols 49:02
yes, it’s difficult. I mean, there’s no resolve for it. I mean, there’s always the desire to have in groups and out groups and you know, give priority to people love similar whatever’s it’s just human nature, sadly, but but I wish we didn’t sort of continue to sub segregate the arts because we’re already a niche thing within the world. And then to like sub Nisha seems a bit ridiculous. Like it seems like we’re hurting ourselves more than we’re helping ourselves.

Sveva Dantonio 49:34
Yeah, yeah, it seems but I think that it’s also like, of course, you know, art is always the reflection of our society. So of course we are reflecting was what is happening out there. And I think that’s sociologically speaking. This process still has to be radicalized, you know, it really has to reach a peak, and then maybe it will be like less stress. How to and less like. So, division and so like, into subgrouping, all of these type of people have human beings. So we have, but at the end of the day, I think that art should really like tries instead of being what art is. So really like trying to overcome boundaries to be like, I mean, when I am in my house, I have the always the feelings to be in China, and then at the same times in Brazil, and then at the same time questioning about gender equality, and Afro American art. If I mean, I can look around that. And I can tell you about all of these different stories. And I’m enables I mean, there is no boundaries at the end. So that’s what I like, I don’t understand why we have to, again, that already exist. We have to build wall, we have to destroy this war, instead of building it again, and again, more stronger,

Matthew Dols 50:59
difficult with all the nationalism that’s going on throughout the world right now. But hopefully, we will transcend all that in time.

Sveva Dantonio 51:07
Yeah, that’s soap. So let’s be positive. Let’s be positive.

Matthew Dols 51:10
Got to Where else? This whole industry is soul crushing?

Sveva Dantonio 51:13
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 51:15
On the artist side, not from a collector side, you just have fun and buy really cool stuff. That’s great fun. But the good little bit is sort of nuts and bolts, sort of like the way you do things are now Okay, when you go out and you’re buying works, or looking at just looking at work, maybe you’re not buying, I don’t even know how you do all this. But do you? Like are you more of like a patron? Do you buy numerous pieces from a single artist? Or do you buy like just the one piece that moves you the most? Or do you potentially like, is the idea of sort of the traditional patronage a thing that you either have done or thinking of doing? Like, so how do you go about doing all this?

Sveva Dantonio 51:57
Yeah, so when we don’t know the artist, we start to buy artwork that is somehow for us, it’s representative of their work. So we start like this. And then if we really like getting to the work of the artists, we continue to buy the same artist, different things from the same artists, and it has happened to us a lot during this last 10 years. I think that the things of the the patrons, we do it not in the acquiring apart with with more in all the parallel project we do has collector, you know, real life trying to engage our community in supporting the artists, not only like in acquiring work, also supporting them when they do exhibition when they need to have support in the production or, for example, like this award, or all of the activity we do on our Instagram account, will like try to be not like millennials, of course, I do not feel like a millennium so much. Still, I have to keep on doing it. And I found that like funny and engaging the. And so this is the method. I mean, we use, of course, during this last period has happened a lot that we found interesting artists on Instagram, for example. So we contacted them, and then we had mutual studio visit. And then the artist is represented by a gallery, and we go through the gallery in order to buy the work at the end. But it’s always like, you know, after you collect for 10 years, I mean, the most important part for you is not at the end, acquiring the work, you know, it’s being part of the process that that is behind the work. I mean, you have to have another three guy, you know, in order to be like challenge and excited about something that is new. You know, of course, for me, it’s always like super fascinating to know the work to the word of the artist. For me, it’s like the Plus, the plus that I can have is like speaking with the artists, because it always I mean, it has never I mean, maybe I’m a lucky person. I don’t know, it has never happened to me that after a discussion with an artist I was disappointed. Or I wasn’t like leaving the conversation with something new with the topic to look at, you know, because I just gives you input, you know, so I always like felt in and reached and felt that I you know, Francesco is the name of my husband, you know, Francesco, we have to look at these and to go there to see these and maybe to read this book, and not this other book. And I mean, this is like the part that I most like and then at the end of course, what’s the suggestion and the advice I always give to collectors that star is never tried to skip the gallery, please. I mean, try always when of course the artist is represented by some galleries to buy through the galleries because we We, I mean, the act system is a system and it’s an economical system. So of course, in order to support this economy, you have to support each part of it and not skipping one. Instead, everything will like collapse, said, I see that. Nowadays, there are a lot of collectors that then in the end, they reveal themselves to be flippers that buy directly from the artist. They do not even like finish the academia, these artists, they buy them before for real like nothing. And then they flip it in on auction houses, these artists, they didn’t have like one show in a gallery, come on, how can you do something like that? And then you have ruined the artist career forever? I mean, how they can survive, how they can survive afterwards. And then you have a whole generation of artists that are super scared about collectors, how about having relationships with collectors, because they do not know if you’re going to be the next flipper? And how can you assure them I mean, of course, having a personal relationship with time with demonstrating them that you’re not this type of person, as you said, you have to be a good person, I think that you have to be a good person has a collector and most of it, you have to have a handshake, you have to have an ethical code that you have to follow, you have to have 10 points in front of you 10 points, to be a good collector in order to really like participate in the sustainability of the system.

Matthew Dols 56:41
Okay, wait, do you have like an Excel spreadsheet for this? What are these 10 points? I love an organizational chart.

Sveva Dantonio 56:48
I mean, I cannot reveal now everything? Because of course,

Matthew Dols 56:54
okay, five might give me five points.

Sveva Dantonio 56:57
Because, you know, it’s part of my you know, being a millennial and being so active on social media, I reveal them once upon a time, you know, it’s not a it’s not for free. Come on. No, I’m joking. I will reveal I mean, the points that I think that are most like important that you can share with the with your amazing public. First of all, as I was saying you previously is always buy through galleries, always buy through galleries, if they’re artists represented by by galleries. Second one of all, if you buy an artwork from a younger artist, do not sell it on on auction before at least five years, it’s really like the minimum, the minimum five years before reselling the work is the main one. And I strongly This is a suggestion to galleries, I strongly suggest to galleries to let collectors sign contract reseller agreement, to do not resell the work at least before five years, that is very important. And then be coherent. I think that coherence has to deal a lot with collecting nowadays. So be coherent with yourself. If in your daily life, you’re not the flipper, I mean, you’re not like exploiting people, and then the next day, you’re selling them on the gossip, whatever, do it as well on your RT life, be coherent, be consistent. And then the fourth advice that I can give you, it’s that collectors have a big responsibility. Big, big, big responsibility. So be aware that you have a role, a pretty consistent and important role in the art system. So whatever you do, is going to affect all the other actors of the art system. So be pretty much aware of what you’re doing. I mean, do not do things without even thinking.

Matthew Dols 59:00
Alright, so a little apology technical problem, different microphones. So now the sound quality is going to change rather dramatically. So please continue.

Sveva Dantonio 59:12
Yeah, I’m sorry for it. But of course, technology’s always an issue. So I was like at the fourth point. So saying that, nowadays, more than ever, collector has a big, big responsibility, being in the contemporary art world system. So being aware of it, he likes to do choices that are somehow responsible for for the artists, for the galleries and for all the system. So let’s keep this in mind when we buy a work. I think it’s very important. It’s not that we, I mean, we’re not like shopping bags or clothes. So we’re shopping, something that has got a value inside it, and it’s got a value for our society. It can also like change a few seats on a bigger vision in our society. So let’s be very aware. of what we are buying and the decision we are making in buying get. Because I always says that, of course, I mean, art is a luxury item, you know, we are buying a luxury item that has got a market value. So market is really present the one who would buy something in auction, I mean, in gallery spaces when we buy a work of art. But again, there are no rules written for this value. You know, there is no I mean, there is no Should I Oh, there’s no vocabulary, there is no finance the rule or regulation that tells you these words as this value now, and in five years, it will increase of this percent for this reason. And that reason, you know, the variables are too many to determine this is pretty much a roller coaster when we see option, for example. I mean, like lately, I’ve seen this option with Phillips back two days ago, and there was like one or two artists that were like reaching the millions. And then all the others were like navigating, you know, somehow, but maybe, I mean, the the quality of the work was as much as the one that reached million. What is the criteria? What is the criteria behind that, I cannot tell you, as well that I’m inside the artwork, now it’s so many years, it’s really like something that change all the time, I’m predictively. You know, so you cannot only by the work of art as an investment, of course, it’s always an investment, you know, that and these, it’s inside, like these 10 points, never buy a work of art only for investment, because it will never return you back after will never give you back something. If you don’t give first you know, it’s an exchange, it’s not that you are exploiting that to earn, I don’t know how many monies for something that you buy. I mean, I know collectors now that are buying a lot of words from African artists from Believe me, it’s true at 70 euro, because now they think that they’re going to flip it in auction when one year in two years, and gonna value it would be like the next amaco blah for you know, there is this fast about discovering, and being the talent scout of the next, Mr. Obama, that is not good. I mean, it’s not good for art, it’s not good for artists, it’s not good for you as a collector, because I think this method will never will never will never will never bring you to the next time. Believe me this. This is true that I can tell you 100% So instead, if you really like buy what you like and what you think, Can I do something to your life, I can really like challenge you every day, when you look at it, these will always repay you have the money you invested, you know, and when you will never like say oh my god, you will never regret it, you know, to have bought it at that time. So it’s a win win. You know, having this attitude being a collector is a win win instead, if you only like see the investment part, I think most of the time you will lose. And I have many example of it.

Matthew Dols 1:03:17
Okay, wait. Something that I’m thinking about here is do collectors talk to each other like so do you all like talk to other people who have collections and be like, Oh, you know, we’re investing in or what? Oh, sorry, I shouldn’t say that. We’re buying? So it’s those were like, or do you keep these kind of like close to the vest you that keep the people that you’re interested in secret? Or do you all sort of share information between collectors?

Sveva Dantonio 1:03:43
No, I mean, all the time. I do this all the time. It’s my main topic. Like our I speak with with Frank. I mean, most of my friends are not like all of them. I mean, most of my friend I love to have friends, artists, friends, creative friends, galleries, friends. And then I have a bunch of friends who are collectors. So we always confront ourselves all the time about what artists are you looking at it? Right now What are you reading about it about that? Can you suggest me something? Always Always I mean, and we of course we do gossip about it? We do. We we want to hear the root, the latest rumors about design how you know this artist is taking this entourage Oh my god. Really? Yes. Yes. You know, and all of these pigs pass around that thing. What is like the most passionate thing that I’m like the most to speak about this model work? Let’s speak about this artists work. And I really like to the best part for me is to describe the work when I have to describe the work to a person who is not like familiar with an artist. I mean, it’s like the most interesting part for me because it’s like dreaming and like this other person or at least wanting to eat the dream about this work dream about this artist and somehow later By nickel get this person get inside their universe which which is, which is these at the end of the day, I mean, an artist we like each artist has got his own universe, which is a dreamy universe, a very personal universe and precious one.

Matthew Dols 1:05:16
Something that I like to ask collectors about is like, so I’ve, I’ve read some stuff about you and about your desire for the legacy and and how your, your art will be sort of thought of after you stop collecting. So after you pass away and things like this, but like so the question, though, that I have is like, how do you define your collection? So they do have like, a time period a style of like, or movement? Like, do you have like a thing that sort of creates a cohesive collection in your mind, that you hope it will be defined by later?

Sveva Dantonio 1:05:52
I think that a collection is very personal face, you know, it tells you a lot about the person, but it’s collecting. So for me, it’s work that we have in our collection, tell me something about the specific event related to the acquisition of this very specific word, tell me something about the artist, I was engaging with the miniature has added something to our collection and to our life. So I always see our collection has a hole, and has a continuous narrative is something that will never happen to you, we will be alive. But even afterwards, you know, as I told you before, I think that what will survive after us will be the narrative that all this works together, have built and it’s pretty much a dialogue that also like goes beyond the time and eastery because I mean, still there are in our collection, these pieces of historical production of the father of my husband, which dated back of the 70s were talking about like Mario ski, Fano and after two. So, Rodney martella can be more Rotella have a dialogue with I don’t know, like hotter Castro or surpass oats and Lena shabalala was influenced by this artists that are now 20 years old. Yes, they can have it and they have a pretty interesting dialogue between of them. I don’t know what may Marsala can say to see influenza when they will meet. I mean, they’re taking coffee together, I don’t know, maybe they have different tastes of coffee, maybe I don’t know. But still, they have a very productive dialogue. And, you know, going back to my background, what Toluca was talking about is that, to him, what he was interesting in was that two images when like different one from each other, being like to the other. So with the montage, they will create another image. So a third image, which is not the first time which is not the the second one, but it’s like the third one, which is the mix of that one time. And it’s really like the idea of the two of them together. So what I think that what’s left when you have this encounter is a third idea that will exist by itself. But it will really like be the core of what we are talking about. So if you like this dialogue, over the time, over the space that you like, art can build, no matter what, where it has been done, or by home. But really like being again, put it in the center the value of door if the work has got the value, it will like overcome everything and it will it no matter how great the heart is you are confronted with will always ozone and we create the with this montage, an idea which is meaningful and will love will stay forever, you know, will stay forever generation of people will still understand and create this connection and understand the meaning and importance of it.

Matthew Dols 1:08:55
Well, it’s hard my like my parents have nowhere near a collection like yours, but my parents have like a small collection that they’ve done over the past 50 years. And they that like we were recently talking about like, you know, when they start downsizing, need to move into whatever like as they get older, I think like leave their large house. What happened to their collection. And they were amazed about like which pieces I said like, Oh, I really want to inherit this piece, but I don’t want to inherit that piece. And and they were fascinated because I kept telling them I was like the reason why I love this piece is not necessarily because the piece itself is inherently somehow beautiful, powerful or effective. But it’s because I have a story that associates with it. I had some experience in my life relevant to that piece that somehow met was meaningful to me. And so therefore I want to inherit that piece because it means something to me, not just because of the work by itself.

Sveva Dantonio 1:09:58
Yeah, I completely see your point and I mean, of course, I mean, I am attached to all the pieces that we have in our collection. And every time we acquire a new piece, it’s my like, favorite piece, because of course, it’s the last one. So it’s like the youngest baby somehow. So what I have to take care of it and be involved in it. But still, there are two or three pieces in a collection that I feel attached to, as you said, because I have a story to tell about these. And a story that really like goes beyond the time as well. For example, there is this piece by Laila dad, which is an artist from California, pretty famous, and rock, mostly Actually, we had a major show in Berlin, and all over Europe. And it’s a photograph of a series that he has done of his mother. So he photographed his mother in her bedroom. She was like completely naked. And he asked then to group of kids to draw on this photograph. So they were kids that didn’t really like have a perception of sexuality has we have it as all those you know, and it’s pretty interesting, because each kids react differently. And the not all of them hide, you know, the intimate part of his mother, for example, the one we have, and he’s done 12 of this photograph in the series, we were pretty, I say, we were pretty lucky to buy the last one. And I was like, we have to buy these because he’s like, really like the last choice, we have to buy this work. And I have to have it because it’s so important. The life is very representative of the artistic practice of Laila. And so we could buy it fortunately, in an art fair, actually in Copenhagen from luxurious gallery, and our picture is named after the kids that was intervening in the photo Ryan’s name shuffle up, and shallot grows, actually grows near the vagina, of the mother of Layla dar, so you don’t see actually the vagina. So any, in this picture is in our bedroom. So it’s in a quiet, intimate space of our house. But I always look at it. And I always find it very romantic, very personal. You know, the story related to this piece for me is the relationship with my mother, you know, which is something like, I mean, I didn’t have this type of relationship, of course, with my mother, I mean, I’m not an artist, and she wasn’t like a prostitute. And so it’s pretty different. But still, the power of the artwork is this one, that, at the same time, it’s very personal. So it touches the story of the artist itself. But at the same time, he is pretty general, you know, we always have and had a very complicated relationship with our mother, you know, I mean, somehow I have this relationship, you know, with my mother, that can be complicated, you know, most of the time. So I pretty much relate to this picture, and makes me dream and makes me reflect about the way we deal with our everyday life and our everyday relationship, you know, somehow with a soft sadness, you know, with a soft sadness, because in the picture, the mother is laying on this bag, and there is this pillow with this flower. So it gives you really like an idea and feeling of softness, you know, but at the same times of sadness, because, I mean, the mother of late adara had the very mean difficult life at the end. And also like his tried, I mean, hey, relax, suffered from it and influence so much his artistic practice, you know, so there is such sadness that really likes gives me, you know, the possibility to always rethink about the relationship that I have with my mother. And I have to say that every people that come here, at the end, when I say, what do you think about this piece, and then I tell them the story, they always say, Hi, you know, and after we are done, you know, like my mother, and then it come up this relationship with the mother. And so I found it like very powerful and fascinating that, you know, it’s kind of like a general feeling towards towards your artwork. And then other work, I am pretty much attached to his knee and by the collective platform 10 the neon says, multimodal mural more, but my love doesn’t die, which is, of course, a very romantic sentence. But then they were referring to the partition. So it’s a title of a partisan book, from the after the Second World War. And this book was telling the story of this parties and the word resilient that you know, they were not like giving up after Second World War, protecting their families, protecting their beliefs, you know, I found that very powerful statement for me. And then it’s also like, my husband, of course is like a collective, he has got a collector heart. So when he proposed me to marry him, he didn’t give me like your brain. He says, listens where I’m going to give you as a gift that this work and it was this this work monomorium on this knee. And so, of course, I can relate a lot to this, the romantic side of it.

Matthew Dols 1:15:27
Yeah. Okay, wait, you brought up the whole stuff about you and your husband? I’m fascinated with who wears the pants in that relationship as far as buying artwork. So like, if you decide you love a piece it does he just go Yes, whatever, honey? Or is this mutual discussions and you all agree to buy something? Or, you know, so like, it’s a very interesting dynamic of like, a husband and wife that collect actively together who makes the decisions?

Sveva Dantonio 1:15:55
Actually, it’s always like, big argument for us, you know, like, we can discuss even like, very late at night, which were even like, of darkness, okay, we agree on an artist, then will may also we take like, one month, decide which work of these artists by you know, so it’s always really like a confrontation, or mutual support, or mutual like punching, you know, somehow, with words, of course, on to words. And, yeah, and it’s also very, it’s vital for us to do this, because we love to discuss about art. I mean, it’s our favorite topic. So if we don’t have these not, we will not collect anymore. So, of course, for me sometimes that I push forward, and it is more and he’s like, Nah, but really, are you sure that sometimes some of the times is the one No, no, you have to be you know, you have to trust me, this is the right one and whatever. So, but if it’s like a relationship, you know, it’s like a normal relationship, you always have to be on a point of you have to reach a point of encounter, you know, between normal argument, even if you want to, like eat pizza or pasta, they said, okay, we both have pizza and pasta together. Or you say, okay, honey, tonight, we’re gonna eat you pizza tomorrow pasta. So there is kind of like, democracy, let’s call it democracy.

Matthew Dols 1:17:22
Right. But who wins more often in those arguments?

Sveva Dantonio 1:17:26
I mean, I mean, I have to be honest, he has a very good high, he has very good time. So my say that most of the time, I mean, I follow him when he is like, pretty sure about something as Okay, let’s do it.

Matthew Dols 1:17:41
Well, it’s interesting. Okay, what does it break down? Like? Like, does it break down like this? Like d? Like maybe you find an artist, but he chooses the work of the artist oftentimes, like, does it? Is there sort of a separation of power or sort of how you come up with it?

Sveva Dantonio 1:17:58
No. So this one comes from both sides come from both sides. So we propose the artists were kind of like, we’re working like a mini board of people. So like, each week, we come up with different names, and then we discuss it, and then we choose the right work. And then we discuss to the art with the artists as well. So most of the time, the artist is like the third person that comes into the discussion. And also let us agreed on what to buy and why I am I must say this, yes, yes, for sure. And it’s good. Hi. Because you always say that the artist has this third eye, you know, and, and so it’s like maybe the most valuable comment that we can have the end of the day,

Matthew Dols 1:18:41
okay, I’m always interested in that, like, so. Okay, when you go into an artist studio, I make this personal. So like, I have this thing that like when, when I have a studio visit, I show them like, let’s say, a dozen pieces. Usually the one that I hate is the one that the the collector likes. And usually the one that I love, the collector doesn’t connect with at all. And I’m always fascinated by like, so like, if I were in a studio visit with you, and I said, This is my most meaningful piece. Would you give it more weight? Or would you be like, I don’t care what you think, like, I like this other one

Sveva Dantonio 1:19:17
very last question, actually. I mean, at the end of the day, if you want to buy this piece by you’re free of it. I mean, if I have to buy I have to decide, I’m sorry, but it’s my money and it’s my day, then I have to have an angle on the wall for the rest of my life. So see it every day you have to like it. No, I mean, like that’s why we had things in the past and we have relationships with our advisor. But then as well with them, it’s not them suggesting us. The artist is us, asking them but you know the girl maybe they have more connection than us because they are in the business and We asked them, can you connect with the galleries? Can you, you know, ask if they have available works? they can they can work as a filter rather than proposing us artists to buy, you know, because it’s very personal face instead, I think that when people rely totally on an advisor, first of all, I don’t think they have this big taste. Second of all, not really. And second of all, I think they’re doing it on for for has an investment.

Matthew Dols 1:20:30
Now you don’t say,

Sveva Dantonio 1:20:33
Yeah, I say so. Yeah. Yes. So of course, I thought my friend important better, as I told you is an instrument to gather up your network, and we like to be as fair as you can be with galleries, but like to not advise on what to buy, which is kind of like control sense. So and I can also sense things right, it was a pseudo advisor, but classes like this.

Matthew Dols 1:21:02
Alright, two last questions. ecology, you brought it up, I’ve run into this time and time again, being in academia, we try to be more ecological as professors to, you know, in the schools and smart with the things that we use, define, like being a responsible ecologically from your perspective,

Sveva Dantonio 1:21:26
ecologic from from my perspective, is, for example, like join this coalition that are growing that are arising now, for example, the green coalition from galleries. So we advise all the galleries to join this coalition, because it’s very simple to reduce the carbon emission of a gallery, already a gallery can have very low carbonation. Moreover, I think like the most impactful thing is transport logistic. So logistic, meaning that if you have to do what transport from the states to Europe, you can, if you want to like low, lower your carbon emission, you should use a boat rather than a plane, which will take of course more time, but at least then it’s going to be safer for the worse. And this is going to be tested, it’s it’s already tested by a lot of colors from the States. So doing like opposite shipping was from Europe to the States. And they have tested that it’s safer. Of course, you have to plan it in advance, but you always planned transport in advance. For example, for the shrine we created in June, the transport will be already happening in March. So you always planned in advance. So it’s not like these big, big change if you plan like one month more in advance. But still, it’s cheaper, it’s cheaper as well. And it’s safer and safer for the world. Because it’s like dedicated, they will have their own space. No one will like walk on the crate or door closing like to destroy mental weight. So why not doing it? Being a collector, of course, we travel less and less now, but we are pre forced to do it. But I think there in the future really believe we, I think that every one of us will use again, more and more to train. Because the whole plane has been like toxic. I don’t know. I mean, we like the way of traveling with the airplane is becoming toxic. And even more being an airport. Now it’s a mess. It’s a total mess, total madness. So I’d rather even if I have to do like two or three more hours of travel, I’d rather take the train for sure when I’m the present.

Matthew Dols 1:23:43
Well, I mean, because like when I think of ecological other two sides that like big collectors that fly around to all the art fairs, shouldn’t use private jets, they should fly commercial. That’s one kind of thing on the extreme version of it. But then I wonder like, as a collector matter to you like as an artist, and if I’m using ecologically smart materials or resources, like is that an IF does that affect your choices and selections?

Sveva Dantonio 1:24:15
Sure. I mean, I think that, of course, if you talk about paintings, a lot of artists nowadays are using like organic colors or colors that are reuse from past colors that have been like kind of like wasted somehow. So I mean, it’s really like a general practice. So you know, and of course there are some artists that are doing like works specifically on it. And we have works that are dealing with this but more like in a theoretical way. So talking about the subject rather than like using maybe what you’re saying like ecological or reusable materials. So it didn’t happen sit in our collection by an hour. No, of course we are interested in the subject, but more like in the practicality With so as a painter using odd, like materials that have been already used or individuals that talks about the subject, but a like in a parallel way or in a more complicated understood way, in a more layered way, way, you know, I don’t like what you’re saying maybe like, for me, it sounds like does Calico work, you know, I don’t buy work that talks about quality for the sake of ecology, you know, like, it’s not the work of after the end of the day, it’s just colic explanation and dissertation about color, which is fine. I don’t think that our should do these, you know, I should give me like something more than that. Sorry, if

Matthew Dols 1:25:41
I know, it’s totally legit. I mean, the reason why I ask is because like, I used to, I have a friend who used to run a printmaking studio, and a printmaking approach uses a lot of water. And, you know, it’s very wasteful in that way. But then there’s like, the, the choice of using, like, oil paint versus like, the newer like vegetable inks and things like this looks like, you know, like, does, when you talk about ecology, are you talking about the, in the production of the work or sort of in the part of the, the industry, you know, so like, like you’re saying, shipping and things like this, what’s the important part to you,

Sveva Dantonio 1:26:18
I mean, each part is important, because each part contribute to the final outcome, you know, it’s super important that from the gallery part, you like, initiate this process, which is not, I mean, it’s simple, but sometimes you have to work to lead. And then from the artists point of view, maybe you know, like this organic colors, sometimes are more expensive than the more toxic one. So not all the artists at the first level can do these choices. So maybe this, again, would be a responsibility of the galleries, who is commissioning the work, to let you know, to let them have the medium the instrument in order to be eco sustainable, you know, more ecological, eco greener, green friendly somehow. So you know, it’s both parts. It’s not the one part is divided to the other, I think that everything should work smoothly, in order to have a greener outcome, let’s say, all right,

Matthew Dols 1:27:20
three artists that you think are somehow noteworthy, or you want people to pay more attention to at this moment.

Sveva Dantonio 1:27:27
Hmm, this is a big responsibility. This is a book responsible,

Matthew Dols 1:27:33
you can do more than three, that’s fine. I just chose the number three because I like the number three.

Sveva Dantonio 1:27:39
So arrived or Right, right, right. So I think that there is an artist. So first of all, a collective collective of artists that I was talking previously, so aparatos, 22, Romanian collective, they are three artists, one brother and one sister, and then third girl, Maria, they do an amazing work. And I think that is still underestimated in the States. They’re pretty much in Europe known but not in the States. And I think they need to have a worldwide recognition, because they’re not only artists, they are wider than that they really like to reflect with their work on what does it mean to be an artist within their system. So they do very critical work about your system that I think that it’s very useful for us because it really like get us reflect on what we are leaving and maybe give us the instrument of understanding what has to be done in order to let things change to support more the artists, I mean, the statics of their work is super appealing and super interesting every time they use different medium. And you have to imagine that they come from the fashion board. So aesthetics is very important for them. So never we should never think that if a work has got a strong message has to be like I mean hardly work never I mean aesthetic always goes with the with the havoc you know with with the content. The second artist that I really much like Pacific moment is done Lila shabalala is an artist from South Africa from Johannesburg. She’s only 22 years old. She always wanted when we speak she always tell me that she she’s like the students of scope, an ideal because she was an ideal student of Kerry James Marshall, because she used like the same black to the peak blackness to something very powerful. I think, of course she represent the human figure in a way which is very polluted to say very glamorous, very feminine, without being ashamed of our femininity. which I found very, very honest and very true to me. And she, what she’s able to do as well is to contextualize the woman naked figure more so than their naked figure, in her context thought so in the South African context. So again, within this wild sumptous nature that I mean, as to do a lot with their history, with their tradition with their roots. So, very powerful work for me. Another artists that litter doctors that I’m gonna say, is a Victorian light, again, a woman, she’s from United States, now she’s living in New Jersey with her parents. So due to the COVID, she use acrylic, she works with paint acrylics, most of the time, she’s pretty much connected with this feeling of nostalgia, because all of the time she represents objects of her childhood, somehow, toys, most of the time toys. And the interesting thing she she found me, she always tells me about her work is that recently, her father took from from the canteen, her old toys, and she recognized them as she also remember then, what she, what fascinated her about her toys were not was not like playing with them, but looking at them. And so I mean, that’s how she became an artist, you know, wanting to represent the object that was running her, and that a steep part of her everyday life, and tells you something about the generation of artists that are so like, intimate, you know, so reflecting about themself being super aware of what’s going on, you know, like, around them. I mean, being in the United States. Now, they were, like, super concerned about politics, about certain issues, about gender issues. And you see that in their paintings, but you see, as well, this very intimate part, this universe, if you think about the United States, now, this also individualistic, you know, way of relating to the world, the world outside the inner, which is tweets pretty interesting. And it’s funny, I mean, her paintings are pretty funny. And for me, another very important part of life is that I still make me laugh sometimes making me you know, make me have feelings about what I’m leaving as, as an emotion.

Matthew Dols 1:32:38
Any other topics that you’d care to talk about that we didn’t touch on or that you want to expand on?

Sveva Dantonio 1:32:43
I think we were pretty much like in that day in a lot of topics and I was pretty interesting conversation actually.

Matthew Dols 1:32:50
I’ve less well done. Thank you very much for your time.

Sveva Dantonio 1:32:52
Thank you for inviting make this podcast.

Matthew Dols 1:32:57

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com