Transcript for Episode 153 – Photographer + Filmmaker, Betsy Schneider (Boston, MA, USA)

Recorded February 9, 2021
Published March 9, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/photographer-filmmaker-betsy-schneider-boston-ma-usa/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Today, my guest is Betsy Schneider. She’s a photographer, filmmaker and professor. We get into talking about her Guggenheim fellowships and what that meant for her career teaching as a general thing, because we can relate the fact that there’s a huge generational shift in how the art world was when we were young and upcoming and how it is now. And her relationship with Sally Mann, and how relationships in general are very important to our artistic careers. This podcast is supported in part by an EAA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. In an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would like to thank our partners humped kassner in Prague, Czech Republic, and Quincy center in a in Norgay in Norway. Links to the EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes. Could you please pronounce your name correctly? For me,

Betsy Schneider 1:13
Betsy Schneider.

Matthew Dols 1:15
Great. Now, one thing I always wondered about people in the creative industries is of course what how old were they made? So like were your parents creative? Did you have some great teachers? Like how did you even get to the creative industries?

Betsy Schneider 1:28
They were actually both somehow involved in psychology. And I’ve realized really recently actually that they were both they both come from these lines of people who are a little bit obsessed with recording family stories. Both my grandfather’s I’ve inherited eight millimeter films from both my grandfather’s which revealed that both of them in slightly different ways. were recording their family were looking at their children, they were looking at my so I’m I’ve been watching these films of my grandfather’s looking at my parents as children. And only recently I realized that that is something that it’s it’s not in the blood, I don’t think but maybe that just so somehow it came down that way. My mother started to when I was a very young, she was working on a PhD, which she never finished on psychology of children and art. And I’ve also seen recent photographs of me in my crib, with like, postcards, art postcards. I mean, when I was an infant, so for a while, I thought, I don’t know where it came from my sisters and I artists, and now I realized that, you know, it was a lot of that was already there. Right? You see fate almost as it

Matthew Dols 2:49
were. So you’re you have sisters, and yeah, you’re also artists.

Betsy Schneider 2:53
Yeah, I have two younger sisters. And neither of them has been able to fully form a career out of it. But they both make art all the time. So yeah, so we’re and we all ended up going to art school after we tried to go to, you know, the normal, the normal college, we all ended up getting our degrees. So

Matthew Dols 3:14
I tried to go to the normal college as well. I went to Ilan College in North Carolina, I tried to be a psychology major, that didn’t work at all, because they tried to say, okay, you need to, you need to be a youngin or a Freudian, or you have to follow sort of this, this thing. And I said, I like little bits of all of it. And I want to put together sort of my own thing from little thing. And they were like, no. Oh,

Betsy Schneider 3:38
I am told that Yeah,

Matthew Dols 3:40
yeah. So I left. I was like, Fuck that. And then I actually went to the University of Iowa, where I was there’s Native American Studies major, because I’d studied with a Native American shaman. I’d done some archeological digs, things like this. And I got there and they were like, Oh, yeah, that majors not actually available yet. It’s a plan to major and I was like, Great, thanks. So anyways, yeah, studying at normal schools doesn’t work for me ended up in private art schools, and they were much better for me for sure.

Betsy Schneider 4:08
It was I, I actually managed to finish a degree, a Bachelor’s in English, which I, when I found out Wait, we read books, and then we talk about them. That’s, that’s what the major is. But it was going on with literature that I realized I was gonna have to study other people who studied literature, and it became increasingly about theory, and then I was like, give me similar to I was like, No, I’m gonna do my own stuff.

Matthew Dols 4:33
That kind of feels like a little bit of like inside baseball, like, like you’re writing about people that write about people that right? Like, that’s just a little too in depth.

Betsy Schneider 4:42
Too many iterations away from the thing itself, I think.

Matthew Dols 4:46
Yeah. I found it interesting. Okay, so you and it’s funny because I did the same thing. So this is what it’s fascinating to me. You have a BA, and then a BFA, and then an MFA. I didn’t say thing I have a BA from University of Iowa, then a B, fa from the Corcoran and then a B MFA from San Francisco. And you did the same sort of thing. What? Why did you do that? I know why I know why I did it. So why did you do?

Betsy Schneider 5:16
So what happened at at Michigan where I got my undergrad, which I loved. I mean, I did. I love my experience there. I wasn’t particularly strong academically. And near the end, I started. Let me go back, I have to say something else that had happened earlier that I forgot to tell you is also when I was when I was probably 11 or 12. My parents and my grandpa, one of my grandfather’s who was still alive, gave me stuff to build a makeshift darkroom in the closet. And we had this kind of house that had giant closet. So they let me use this closet off the bathroom to make a darkroom. I wasn’t super disciplined. And as you know, with photography, you know, when you’re an undisciplined, 11 year old, it can, I made a lot of mistakes, and I made a mess, but I, but I loved it. But then I stopped doing photography and in high school, I think, because I was an athlete. And I think somehow the idea of being an artist and an athlete, you weren’t allowed to do both. So that when I went to college, I always knew I love photography, but I couldn’t take photo classes until the very end, because of the way the registration worked. And everyone wanted to take photo. So I took a photo the last three semesters I was there, and I got to the end of my last semester, I’m like, wait, this is what I want to do. This is it. And they’re like, you know, you’re done. So I spent, I only spent a semester thinking, Okay, maybe I want to go to grad school. And I applied to a postback program at at school, the Art Institute of Chicago, and they were like, Huh, we don’t have one, and you don’t have enough experience. So how about you come get a BFA. And it took me about, I was there a couple days there. I was like, wait, I just finished one. And then I was like, okay, and it was before, it was insanely expensive to do something like that. I mean, now it seems like it would be a crazy decision. I mean, it’s still kind of a crazy decision. So I was like, okay, and it was much more. It was much more me it was much more. I don’t know if I fit in better at art school, but I definitely studying or making art just all of a sudden, I was like, wait, this is what I was supposed to be doing. Not that it was I was particularly great at it or that it was easy or anything but it just felt like I was in the right skin. I think how did you end up there?

Matthew Dols 7:43
I’m not sure if I fit in at art school. But

Betsy Schneider 7:46
no, because anyone fit in at art school?

Matthew Dols 7:48
Yeah, no, that’s sort of the irony is like, it’s a bunch of outcasts and you know, cultural, like abnormal people trying to be you know, together somehow. So yeah, yeah, I’m not sure I fit in. I mean, there were there were still cliques, even in my art school. Yeah. And there were the the the the teacher’s pets and the the outcasts and all that kind of those are still all of that. I don’t know if I fit in. But I had fun. Unfortunate, I’m still paying for it still through my student loans. But yeah, hopefully Biden will do something about that. You know, who knows? Why did I ended up in my because a similar like, I finished my BA and I applied to a couple schools and they all were like, yeah, your works not quite good enough for an MFA program. And they said, Hey, why don’t you go for a BFA before and sort of get your portfolio in order and sort of even my, my techniques and my ideas, like, make my ideas better, because like, they said, my, I wasn’t mature enough in my ideas, to get to go for an MFA at that point, which was totally legitimate. So I said, Sure. So I did and it was good. Um, no, no regrets.

Betsy Schneider 8:58
Yeah, same here. I mean, it sounds very similar that I, I wasn’t, I wasn’t ready. I mean, similar, like, right after there, I applied for an MFA. And I didn’t get in. And, in retrospect, but having been on those committees now, I’m like, I was good enough. But I was not ready. I was like, wow, I mean, I think it was good enough. But I was like, Wow, that was smart of them to be like, she’s not ready at all. So would have been like, it would have been, like 100 years of Call of education without a break. I mean, some somehow, or maybe, and maybe I wasn’t good enough, you know, I mean, but anyway, I think that that, in retrospect, is something you can say when you’re a little older. I was like all those rejections from all those MFA programs. When I was right out of my BFA when I’ve been in college for eight years, and they’re like, you know, maybe you’re not. You shouldn’t be in those seven. It was seven. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 9:58
Okay. It was like my I was four years of undergrad than two that I got a BFA, and two more years is all they made me do. So I got it and six.

Betsy Schneider 10:07
So I’m exaggerating one year. So I did. What I did with my first with my BA, is I took a semester off, my father was living in Denmark, so I took a semester off and live with him. So I graduated a semester late. And then, and I took a semester, well, it wasn’t semester off, there was an in between my gap semester between my two MBAs or be at bachelor’s degrees. And then it was two and a half at the Art Institute, and then I graduated December, and they did the actual graduation ceremony in June. So it felt like it ended up being you for years. I was all by the time, I felt all to be graduating from

Matthew Dols 10:54
our I mean, in hindsight, it’s funny, I hadn’t even thought about this until we’re now talking about this. But like, I probably should not have accepted me into a master’s program because I was still sort of a drug addict. At the time, I was doing a lot of cocaine and heroin and things like this during my BFA program. And after my BFA program ended, I quit cold turkey. And then Apple started, but like six months after having gotten clean, I then started applying for masters programs. And that’s when I was able to sort of successfully find a math master’s program. So there is also that element of a little bit of maturity of choosing to you know, quit those childish ways and, and grow up.

Betsy Schneider 11:37
So was art helpful for you? And it was being an art school helpful during that time in your life? I mean, did you find that it? It was a, which time the clean

Matthew Dols 11:45
time or the time

Betsy Schneider 11:47
that click Well, actually, in some ways, both right, because there’s nothing I know that much, but there’s arguments for both sides, I actually met when you were in the MFA, I meant that, you know, the,

Matthew Dols 11:56
it was horribly ironic, I moved to San Francisco to not do drugs, okay, it’s just like wrong. Like, I mean, that’s, you know, that’s where you go to, like, smoke the best pot and get the best LSD and all that stuff. And I went there clean. So that was interesting in and of itself, but that my education was phenomenal. Like they were, it was the by far the best education I had of all my education, not to say my other ones were bad, but the program was great, the people I made great friends. And then it has still affected me to this day. Like, I ended up getting my degree in new genre art, which is very pompous and arrogant I now, which I kind of enjoy. But it’s, it was more about the idea of making a piece of art, the where the idea was the primary, right. And, and so like, it was more important that your idea was really interesting. And then how it manifested was, could have been in any medium. So like, you know, any given day, I would be sitting in a studio, talking with myself and my peers and my faculty, and they would, we would literally have to look at like a performance piece, a video piece of printmaking sculpture, painting and photography series. And just everybody in there would have to learn how to eloquently discuss any of them as art, not as whatever medium. So when you go into a photo class, you’re talking about photos. And so you can be like so what kind of camera did you use? What lens did you use? What paper? Did you print this on all this stupid technical bullshit? That doesn’t actually matter in the end?

Betsy Schneider 13:37
Right? Right. It’s interesting because my grad program ended up being a little bit more like that. It was at Mills College, it was very small. And I ended up going to school Well, you probably know because it’s the same I don’t know maybe you don’t but this say the same thing where my cohort was wasn’t only a couple photographers, and I ended up hanging out with electronic musicians which played into my later life a lot. Not that much later. But that was great. It was so great to have to, to get away I’m in photography to has like the geekiness of photography, which I am sometimes seduced by I have to admit, I exist on a line where I can be pulled into its I can be loved talking about that. But I also ultimately am much more interested in talking about the ideas and that the breaking the boundaries of of the medium. I can go back and forth most Yeah.

Matthew Dols 14:33
Oh, I love my gear as much as anybody else. But I also don’t, I’m a little tired of like people being snobbish like, Oh, your lens doesn’t have a red ring around it or you know, all kinds of stupid shit like this. And I’m just like, it’s exhausting, especially these days because like, there are some phenomenal cameras and phenomenal artists who do not use the best equipment necessarily, but can make amazing expressive it. Yours through it. So there’s no need for that amazing equipment to be able to be making beautiful works.

Betsy Schneider 15:07
It’s true. I wonder if there’s something out there. I wonder if I, as a as a, I don’t know if it’s because I’m a woman, but as a very early age, going into a photo store was a little bit of an alienating feeling. And I’m not really good at talking tech. I’m an intuitive Knower. And I would go into photo stores until actually relatively recently and walk out feeling like I didn’t know anything all right under talk myself or there’d be this like bravado and photo stories, and I hated it. And I hated going in there. And so that particular dialogue, I rejected it pretty early on, like, talking about lenses and quality of gear. And only recently I’ve become confident enough to to actually go in and I still I still like, undersell how much I know. I don’t like that competition. But then I also walk out thinking, I feeling competitive, actually, weirdly. But I mean, you’re you’re nodding your head, so probably, you know exactly. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 16:12
I hate that world. Well, I used to work in a photography store. And yeah, it’s very much a boys club. Like, there was an older guy, Frank, very lovely man. But he like what if a, another older photographer would come? And he’d be like, Oh, yeah, hey, we got some great stuff in the back. Let me get to the good stuff. And then if some young lady who was let’s say in school comes in, he’d be like, yeah, that’s all we got. And like he would, he wouldn’t help her at all. And it was it is very much an old boys club, or it has traditionally been I’m hoping it has changed. I haven’t been working in that industry for 20 years now. But let’s hope it’s gotten better.

Betsy Schneider 16:49
Yeah, yeah. From what I can see. And obviously, I’m not in that deep industry. But I, it does seem like there’s some changes happening, I hope.

Matthew Dols 16:58
We hope there’s always changes in all industries. But you brought up the idea of like, how you find your concepts and things like this. And that’s something actually I wanted to ask you about, which is your works are your series of works that you’ve done over your career are reasonably sort of different in their subject matters and stuff. So like, how do you come to an idea that says, that’s an idea worth making a series about?

Betsy Schneider 17:23
I think I just often just throw everything at the wall that I possibly can and see if it sticks and then see if I have the ability to follow through with it. That’s a flip answer. Kind of. Yeah, I think it’s, it’s I do, like, I mean, I have ADHD, and I don’t know if that is part of it. But I, I’ve thought a lot about defining what it is to experience that. And I know a lot of people know, but it’s this like idea. Like, it’s also almost an assault of ideas. Like I’m my brain is always thinking of ideas, most of them are bad are actually more importantly, most of them. I don’t have the attention span to to take them. So partly, that’s just like figuring out how idea management so and your question at its core kind of is, how do you decide what ideas are, are worth investing in? And I’ve also recently had a friend Tell me who’s married to someone with with a DD? And that one of the problems is your inability to, to prioritize? And so it’s interesting, because this question comes back to that, right, like, how do I prioritize? And so maybe it isn’t a flip answer, because I, you know, I’ll get tons of ideas. And usually they they come from, I mean, I think my everyday life, although I don’t know if that’s true, either, because I’ll read the newspaper, and I’ll think, alright, somebody should make, you know, somebody should make a computer program that simulates you know, I won’t go into that idea. But I have like, ideas that run through my head. So I think what I would say is, one of the things is there’s attrition, they’re staying focused. And then, you know, through the years of me being a parent and grad school, I did it, I just kept going because it was grad school and 24 hours a day, you just, you just created work. So I’d have an idea. And I just try it. And just, and then the faculty would be like, yeah, or this one. And that was that was grad school. And then afterwards, I had I had little kids, and I kept thinking, How do I, how do I use this experience to make work but not like, I mean, like, like all parents, so I was like, I don’t want to artists, I was like, I don’t want it to be like everyone else’s. But so the boundaries almost forced me to like to take those ideas, but I think, ultimately, I think it’s Yeah, now I don’t even have an answer. This is like the most basic question. It’s like, what’s your favorite color? Oh, no, no,

Matthew Dols 19:58
no. They’re more much more better. questions that I try not to even ask because they’re obvious, but it mean? Well, okay, well, I’ll give you an example. Like for me, what I’ll often do is I often will be working on multiple projects at the same time. Because I find that if I devote all of my time, energy, emotion and everything like this into one project, I get burned down on it super fast. And so being able to sort of flip between different projects, like, I work on one as far as I can, and then sort of just come to a stopping point, I stop, put it aside and then work on another one, basically, until I run out of whatever motivation, interest, whatever. And then I stopped, and then I go back, you know, so like, I’ll have to between two or three projects going at any given time, in order just to keep me fresh, and to allow me some time and distance to be able then look back and go, No, wait, I was going in the wrong direction there. Wait, I should go in a different direction in order to keep the series going well, but I want to sort of caveat this with my series of works are generally 20 pieces by them all done. I’ve seen you do with series after like, 250 series of images like so how do you keep up the the the interest in a subject even for like being able to come up with 250 really great photos. I couldn’t do that.

Betsy Schneider 21:20
And that’s actually it’s funny, as you’re talking, I’m starting to understand my own process a little bit more. And I think it’s a combination between what you’re talking about, I mean, I have I have had several projects that are really long term and really high volume. And in fact, I’m still feel challenged by a lot of them, because I don’t know what to do at the end. But I think like you, having multiple projects go on at the same time, I don’t think it’s something I choose to do. I think. I feel like it’s a cop out often, like I’ll do, I’ll do these long term projects. And I’ll do it for a long time. And then I’ll be doing another one. Practically, I think when my kids were little, that was just how I had to function or how I told myself, but when you talk about with the the, you know, photographing the 13 year olds, partly I had, I had funding, and I had support to do that and expectation, and I written out a proposal. And I actually did want to like I was like, do we need to have 250? How about 100 at this 150 I get to a point where I was getting bored with. That’s not true. I was I hit a hard place, I was getting the same. I felt like I was the people I was photographing the kids I was photographed felt like I was getting the same answers. And I was actually at this point where I was like, Why do I have to this numbers arbitrary, I picked it, no one’s gonna force me to go to 250. I had a grad student who was my assistant say, you need to push. She’s like, you’re going to be talking about this for a long time. And if you don’t push now, you’re going to be really sorry. And it was right. And I did and I pushed it. And I ended up getting more diverse kids. And I ended up pushing myself to that next place that I was afraid of. So one another answer I might have is I depend a lot on people around me, I enlist them to push me or whether it’s a deadline, or whether it’s like relying on early on my ex husband or my partner now to be like, you know, now holding my feet to the fire to push things through. That doesn’t mean I there are a lot of projects I don’t finish or that they’re sitting in boxes, or my studio is filled with like, so many unfinished ideas. I’m like, ashamed to admit it publicly. But like for every one that gets through, there’s like 10 more at one level. And on

Matthew Dols 23:49
the other level. Absolutely. I have an entire series of pastel drawings that I’ve done that it will never see the light of day.

Betsy Schneider 23:57
I think that might be okay. You need me to tell you it’s okay. I’m telling you

Matthew Dols 24:03
make me feel better. That’s this. This is all just psychology for me. So that’s fine. Within that, though, something that I wonder about is Okay, so let’s say you have a project that has 250 images in it, which to me just sounds ridiculously large. But how do you know when you’re done?

Betsy Schneider 24:20
Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, with that one in particular, I had set that goal. And so that was a that was kind of a finite even from the beginning, but I mean, I could talk about another project where I specifically where I photographed my daughter every day, which started as a project that I thought was going to be one year at first, and then I just kept going, and then I fantasize that it was gonna go until she was 18. And then, because it was work about my everyday life, it was work in it. was integrated into my life. And that comes back to your earlier question I think of how do I, how do I find ideas? And how do I kind of know. So So this was the daily photos I took with my daughter and I, I knew I was out of grad school, I knew that I was using my everyday life in this way that was, I won’t say a Faustian bargain. But it was definitely like a trade off to be able to make work and, and be a parent and do that sometimes do them at the same time and make use the ideas of my everyday life to express myself. And what what happened specifically with that project is my life changed the project, whether it was how the outside world perceived the work, causing me to, like rethink a lot about my relationship with my daughter and my family, or the fact that it was an everyday project that became collaboration with, you know, my daughter’s father. And then when we got separated, the project ended up Well, basically, Frank and Madeline stopped being invested in it. That’s kind of an extreme. I mean, that one came to an end in a way that I hadn’t anticipated. But I also knew that I was trying to make art about life. And so it took many years afterwards for me to come back to it and say, Oh, the way it ended was actually artistically really great. It was emotionally and personally pretty painful. And that’s kind of an extreme like, I didn’t, it ended because it had to. And I didn’t realize that it was an interesting ending until, until I could look back on it years later. So that was a that that’s where like, probably the psychology and the psychologists background, like being able to look back and say, oh, psychologically, that’s really interesting. But there’s also simple answer. And that’s often when I, when I start repeating, right when the work stops being interesting, another body of work was when my kids got taller than me. And that sounds really silly. But I’ve only realized that recently, too, is the pictures of them stopped getting interesting when I started pointing the camera up at them, I’m sure there’s all metaphors related to that. And I’m sure it wasn’t just about the fact that they were, they were taller, they’re both bigger than I am now. And that changed, it changed how I felt about them, not because I don’t love them, but I could almost like I couldn’t protect them anymore. And I don’t know why that was connected to making art. But the pictures got a lot less interesting when they got they got taller than I those are kind of specific examples. So I think

Matthew Dols 27:39
these are great examples. No, this is what I’m looking at, they given me the whole reason for the podcast is to hear the specific stories of everybody’s life experiences, because maybe I cannot relate directly to it. But there’s some metaphor in there or something that I’m going through that I can also be like, Oh, well, that’s why I didn’t whatever this thing or that thing. So like, total specific specificity is fabulous. So do not yet Try not to talk vague, because nobody relates to vague, like, you know, you mean like how many times he hears like, you know, don’t worry, be happy. And like, you’re like, Fuck you. Like, it’d be nice, it’s so fucking vague, that it means nothing. So like, you know, specificity is where we all get the greatest inspiration.

Betsy Schneider 28:27
I yeah, I just wanted to tag on to what you said too, about making work about being a parent. And often being a mother, although I’m uncomfortable with that I get more more and more uncomfortable, the more niche and it is really important to me, too, I really hope that I’m able to make work that’s, as you said, about the experience so much that it doesn’t become about the category. And that even loops back to what we’re talking about, about photography and about like, the specimen. I’ve never been comfortable in like mothers groups, or like, specifically photo groups, because I’ve never, I never liked that label. I never liked this idea of that the labels what defines me, even though there’s times where having community is important, or the I keep making the photo geek analogy. I mean, it’s fun to talk gear for a little while, but it gets very boring if you can’t transcend it. And I feel that way about my work. I feel like I know it’s not true of all of it. But I really hope that people who aren’t specifically weren’t mothers, but who are parents or all these backgrounds are even trying to make work about having ADHD. I mean, some we can sit around people with ADHD can sit around for hours and hours and talk about it. And that’s not that interesting. It’s interesting to bring other people into the experience. So anyway, that was a long answer. But

Matthew Dols 29:51
what what’s in and of itself, it’s very funny to hear that people with ADHD can sit around for hours and talk about anything.

Betsy Schneider 29:57
It’s doing another project where I’m at interviewing people from different different identity traits that I share. And I’m having a hard time I’ve got videos and videos that I haven’t edited yet. The ones with the ADHD people, they’re like two hours, and I’m terrified to start even listening to those videos and figure out where to go. And they’re really fun to do.

Matthew Dols 30:21
Joe, well, I, when I’m done editing these podcasts, I rarely listen back to any of them, because it’s just like, I don’t want to hear what stupid shit I said. Oculus like that. So, okay, somebody I noticed about some of your work. So this is not all of your work. But I’m specifically looking at the to be 13 series of images. The portraits are beautiful. The You know, they’re elegant. I think if I remember correctly, you shot these on four by five, right? Yeah,

Betsy Schneider 30:49
yeah.

Matthew Dols 30:50
So they’re elegant, the lighting is gorgeous. The poses are very natural and very sort of just engaging in many ways. But they, individually like they, I feel like they needed some more context. And so the question is, like, how important is then the the texts or titles or any sort of written statements that you put with your works versus the production of the images themselves? Hmm.

Betsy Schneider 31:20
Yeah, I mean, I think that work and, and specifically, I made because it had had the video component to, when I first started doing that, I imagined that I would be the kind of photographer that would make these like individually. profoundly beautiful. In fact, that project in and of itself, I imagined that we would pick 20 pictures that would be and people would be like, these are brilliant. And what happened?

Matthew Dols 31:50
I know about everything we may right

Betsy Schneider 31:52
now. It’s It’s true. And it was definitely a process. On one hand of discovering, I’m going to go off topic a little bit, I’ll get back to that. But that discovering that the strongest work that I made well, when I started making the interviews, so I made the interviews concurrent, but it took maybe 10 kids to kind of get in the rhythm. And then I was I was so I was actually in Las Cruces. So I was actually staying with my friend David Taylor. I interviewed this kid who I interviewed this kid in Tucson, I got to Las Cruces, we sat down and watched the video and this, it was like, the video was 100 times better than any of the pictures I’d taken. And it was less me. I know, it was less me, I thought, like, less me interfering. There was just something about 100 times, maybe not. But like, all of a sudden, I realized, like the videos, were doing something that I couldn’t get in the still pictures. And so I started realizing that this project was I was learning from the videos, the pictures were like my territory back to the photo geek thing. Like, where I knew how to control it. More or less, I was comfortable. And I started making these videos, and they started to unleash something that I hadn’t even pre conceived would happen. I mean, not unlike right you have these conversations for your podcast and you. You’re gonna see what happens.

Matthew Dols 33:21
I never know what’s gonna we’re gonna talk about.

Betsy Schneider 33:23
Yeah, yeah. And that was exciting. So that I think what happened with that work was there was the control more control of the photographs. Oh, my gosh, I’m turning off the whole phone completely.

Matthew Dols 33:35
I’m so sorry. It’s so unprofessional. perfectly. Okay. It happens all the time. It’s usually children come running into the room or

Betsy Schneider 33:43
Yeah, something like that.

Matthew Dols 33:44
Yeah. For me, if I leave my Outlook Express on I get like an email and I get the bing bang thing.

Betsy Schneider 33:51
Alright, so it’s real life?

Matthew Dols 33:52
Yeah. It’s perfectly fine.

Betsy Schneider 33:55
But the question is, I mean, I think the question comes back to when I’m teaching, too, about artists statements, and I don’t want to explain too much. But I also like, I mean, we’d all like to be able to be I think, the photographer that can make the single picture that can go out into the world and doesn’t need any explanation. And everybody’s totally like, they understand everything, they have a transcendent experience. And, you know, I think I don’t have the patience or the talent, or maybe that’s just a myth.

Matthew Dols 34:27
Anyway, I don’t know what to certain except I do think it’s a myth, because like, a lot of times, I will see some of these historical photos that I can think of sort of the iconic images that people are like, Oh, this thing represents this time period and all that and says, how everybody was feeling at this time. And I, and I’m like, Yeah, but it’s only interesting, because you have to put it into that context of that times. You have to understand what was going on at that time in order to say, Oh, you’re right. That’s an iconic thing of that time. So every photo No matter how much we all said, Random, we’re like wishing that we can make that iconic image that represents a time period or an oeuvre, or, or genre or whatever kind of word we want to put to it. It’ll never happen, it never did happen it, you always had to have some additional context with it. So even if it was just a title, or some additional images to put more context to the one image or, or a curator saying though, this is where the abelian or whatever, so like some outside influence with something else, like contextualization, that somehow made it more important, it was never just the one photo. As much as we all wish it was,

Betsy Schneider 35:41
we do. And I wonder if it’s a result of, for me, and I’m guessing that you’re not too far behind me, age wise, but there’s when I came of age in art, and photography was the beginning or kind of still this vestige of modernist teaching and photography of the idea that, at the same time, extreme kind of post modernism, kind of clashing, but there was also this idea that the picture itself shouldn’t need anything extra. And that if you are a real artist, you know, and it’s funny, because we can talk about setting new genres, which was like, the other end, and there’s like this kind of these conversations going on where either everything is, like, totally explained, and totally intellectualized and there’s like, artists statements that, you know, make you go crazy, because they’re in there, you know, they are going to infer stuff, that’s not their, kind of talk about these ideas. And you’re like, ah, but then there’s this, like, the super, very deeply problematic modernist idea that the picture exists outside. I mean, I’m no, I’m giving like an art a really basic art history lesson. But I, I feel like I waver between those two. And there’s some kind of internalized like, it’s some kind of super ego in me that’s like, but really should ultimately should be making these pictures. And, and maybe it’s because I’m not a very good writer, or something like that. But

Matthew Dols 37:05
we’ll see. That’s my position. Okay. I believe that people who get into the visual arts generally get in because we can’t express ourselves in whatever way, effectively outside of visual medium. So whether it’s painting, sculpting photography doesn’t matter. But we’re not good writers, if we were like, when I was an undergraduate at the I applied for this, I don’t remember what it was some fellowship or something like this. And they said, Oh, and please write two pages about your work. And I was, and so I wrote an really big font that took up two pages. If I wanted to be if I wanted to write about my work, I would have been a writer. Needless to say, I did not get that grant or whatever it was. But it felt good to say that I’m a little tired of this incessant need of the arts industry, for us to not only make beautiful, I shouldn’t even say you make expressive, cohesive, creative expressions of our ideas, but to then also eloquently write about it when we chose not to be writers when we chose to be in the visual mediums.

Betsy Schneider 38:17
Right. Right. And I think that that’s writing also is it’s a different, it is a different medium, and it reduces the potential for understanding. I do think people want, they want to be led. They want to be told what they’re saying. And I resist that. And I do think that’s different from the question that you asked, I think I pulled it back to this. I do think, where’s the space in between? Where’s the space between the photograph or or the object or the experience? Or what what does it take for an experience to be whole and cohesive? And you started by talking about the the 13 year old project? And I think that, you know, I do think that that work? That work went beyond me in a lot of ways that I didn’t expect and a lot of the things that I thought it should be like, I thought it should be a short edit. And the designer and the curator both said, No, this is about all 250 kids. And at first I was like, well, but they’re not all good. And how do we include that? What I learned from them was one, you other people can help you figure out what your work is meaning, but that also, back to your question at the beginning, I think this idea that work can be put together. It not that an artist statement that explains it, but pieces that create a whole that’s much more complex and much more interesting. Then I have one more thing I want to add to that about that project is they had an exhibition in Phoenix of it. There was a there was a video and then there were the pictures. The large pictures and then there were chosen pictures and then every single all 250. still images were shown ordering the show. And there was a teen council to the Phoenix museum. And the teen council got this idea that they were in a room where people wrote a letter to their 13 year old self 1000s of people, like 18 year olds, 20 year olds, 14 year olds, even some 11 year olds, 1000s of people wrote letters to themselves, I cannot take credit for it directly. or thinking of the idea. I feel like that is the most maybe one of the most important things I’ve ever been a part of, like, I don’t even feel like I where do you claim authorship or something like that there’s this experience that these people had, the letters are fantastic. And I guess that’s a circuitous way of answering your question, I think about what do things need? And how do you let things grow? And how do you let things go beyond yourself? How do you balance the the artists ego where you want to be? You want to be the thing? You want to be the? It’s for me, it’s the most profound thing I did. I didn’t really do it, like, somebody else did it. And we’re

Matthew Dols 41:20
also a bit of control freaks as well. Oh, definitely, definitely wouldn’t be so like to allow for something else, or lack of control over our of ourselves is also a very difficult thing to do sometimes as well.

Betsy Schneider 41:33
It’s huge. Yeah, indeed.

Matthew Dols 41:36
Okay, I have a question. So I have a couple of the lowest points of things that I just want to get to. I saw that you received a Guggenheim Fellowship. I’m fascinated to me. A Guggenheim Fellowship is like up on the the echelon of like, like, you know, like holy things to receive in your life like that. And like a Pollock Krasner kind of thing would be like, like, holy crap. That’s like a pinnacle of a career to me. So tell me a little bit about like, because I, to be honest, I won’t even look at the application for a Guggenheim, because I already know that I’m not qualified for it. It’s like, how did you even like, get the confidence and then go through the process of writing? And then, you know, the whole spiel of the the experience of participating in a Guggenheim Fellowship?

Betsy Schneider 42:22
It’s interesting. So I thought about it for a long time. I think when I heard I heard about it early on, which is weird, because I’m generally wasn’t that in tune to things like that. Not that I didn’t care. But I remember hearing really early on. Like, to get a Guggenheim, you had to, like have letters written by people who wrote googan homes. And I have to admit that for maybe 15 years, I was like, that was running in the back of my back of my mind, like, part of me maybe thinks that I wasn’t going to be ready until I had a couple of those people in my circle. And I just happened that I had really mentors who they and they really were mentors. They weren’t people. I was just kind of like, Oh, you got a good time. And so you know, it was I don’t know if names help, but Katherine Wagner, who was my professor at Mills College, Sally Mann, who I worked for, and then and Mark clut, who was a colleague, and we’ll put a pin in that Sally man. Yeah, I know. I know. Okay, well put a pin in that. And so I had to be ready to ask them to do that. So that was the first thing is I felt like I had to be ready to ask my mentors. So that was the first kind of step for me. But then I had your question i How did I get to the point where even thought that I was ready? And I don’t know what happened. I just, I just thought, Okay, I’m ready. Actually, I do know, it was relative to this idea that I started to have about adolescence, and watching my children go through adolescence, and I thought this this idea might be good, although, let me just tell you, I didn’t really think I was gonna get it. I mean, I really didn’t. And, and the first time I didn’t, but the first time I remember after I mailed in that feeling so good that I felt ready. Like are nine ready? So good. I did it. Like I, I just had this feeling like the first time I was like I did it. And I had heard from, I think it was was both Sally and Mark had had kind of expressed this idea that you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t do it too many times. Like do it a couple times, if you don’t get it. I think that was Mark’s idea. And Sally’s was more like make your first one really good. She was like, Don’t blow your first effort. So I had been like taking all this in. So the first time I didn’t get it. And I was disappointed. But I was also like, I didn’t really think I had a chance. And to be how do we how do we do this as artists, we we do things we do things at Once we have the arrogance, to think that we’re going to get it, but also, alright, I’m going to go to a really, really, really, really quick tangent was. I don’t know if you heard the story it could be apocryphal about when Doris Lessing was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature. She was like 83. And she was like, I think she was told it like the grocery store. I don’t know why I imagine it’s, I think I’ve made it up. And she’s like, 20 years too late. And my first response is, like, what an arrogant thing to say. And my other shows, the woman was 83, she was probably like, Fuck you. Like, if I was good enough. Now, I was good enough, 20 years ago, when I could have spent the money when I could have done something with it. And so I think about as artists, we have to have this mixture of like arrogance, and you have to be able to be like, you’re Doris Lessing, you don’t get the Nobel Prize, you should have gotten it, you think according to whatever criterion or other criteria out there, you don’t get it, you keep going. You continue to think you’re worth it. But But this mixture of being able to be humble, and this mixture to be to be honored. And so in short, I reapplied The next year, I refined my idea. It was broader. It was like middle school, I refined it specifically to 13 year olds. I think I added in the video component. And I mean, who knows? Like, what makes something like that happen? Yeah. And then I had that moment Exactly. As you described, when this like, email comes in, I was like, could this be is this possible? And then I call my partner. And I started being like, Oh, I forgot I said something kind of negative. She’s like, you’re gonna make this a negative thing. And I realized that that I’d see myself as an underdog. And it was a moment where I was like, you can’t use that excuse anymore. You can’t be an underdog all these like, artists psychology things that I realized, like, Oh, I never get it. I never get grants. Like, I’ve lost that I lost the right. The right to bitch the right to complain the right to be an outsider. I mean, there you go back to that idea of like, I am making it sound like a bad thing. But it was it was pretty it was Yeah. Anyway, I don’t know if that answers your question.

Matthew Dols 47:24
I did the same thing. I when I started this podcast, I was railing on grants, how much I grants are so annoying. There’s it’s such an insider’s kind of thing. And it’s all you know, who do you you know, kind of thing. And since I started, because like, I got a big grant. So like, now I can’t complain anymore. Because like, now I’m part of the system that I was railing against, which is not something you can do. So it’s one of the things like, you want to be famous, but like once you’re once you have that, like cusp of it. It’s like he can’t be as outsider, you no longer the outsider, you’re no longer the underdog kind of thing. And it’s like, oh, now I have to like, be the icon like me. It’s like the transition that I had when I was being a photographer. Just like being a photographer. That’s all fine and good. Like, Hey, I’m a photographer, I do whatever the fuck I want to do, I take pictures, whatever I want to take pictures of. But as soon as I became a teacher, suddenly I was a mentor, somebody I was up to Yeah. And suddenly, I was like, Oh, I have to stop cussing so much. I have to stop talking about drugs so much. I have to well stop doing drugs, I have to do the unit. Like I have to do all kinds of things like that. Because suddenly you’re on the other side of something and you’ve become the the thing like, you know, like I now sort of look up to you. I’m Oh, she has a Guggenheim Fellowship. Well, she’s, she’s on a different level than I am because I don’t have a Guggenheim Fellowship. So I mean, it’s very prestigious, I am not knocking it in any way. I’m saying good for you. Like, and I want to know, how did you do it so that I can do it?

Betsy Schneider 49:01
No, it’s true. And I actually love talking about it because of that. Because I mean, maybe ultimately, because of the teacher in me, but I totally relate to like that realization that I remember when I first started teaching him like, I can’t be the class clown and the teacher at the same time. I was like,

Matthew Dols 49:18
exactly.

Betsy Schneider 49:20
Then who am I? And I think the same you’re right to make that analogy that I was

Matthew Dols 49:26
the horrible smartass student that like made teachers cry in high school. And the iured horrible irony is now that I’m the teacher that ends up getting all emotional at my students doing the same stupid shit to me. Right. Right.

Betsy Schneider 49:42
That’s our conversations coming full circle to the idea about generational generations. Right and and kind of realizing, and I think success I mean, back to the the idea of how we deal with success is also really important. And I think sometimes when we’re We develop as artists we develop ourselves in opposition to. Yeah, I mean, like you said things that you want, and his

Matthew Dols 50:09
opposition to that.

Betsy Schneider 50:10
Exactly. And that has its limitations, I guess, ultimately, like, I mean, ultimately, I think as artists, we were the opposite. We’re making stuff we’re trying to, we’re actually trying to enrichen what’s there, we’re trying to make that sound that’s tried to make the world better, but richer and more complex and more interesting. And two, more than I would just say, our job is to make it more than to take things and transform them into things that are more meaningful than they were before the box of paper, the film, that, you know, whatever the materials are the pile of wood. So instead of being in opposition to we are actually supposed to be making stuff but that’s terrifying and threatening. And I there’s a, there’s a lot of trains to go down of thought and a lot like you said, for me to in art school, a lot of these thoughts started this idea of being contrary, but also the artists ego like are like, complicated, fragile, which it shouldn’t be fragile, we should be even stronger. Because we’re the ones who are just saying, how about this idea? And how about this idea? reject,

Matthew Dols 51:23
it’s okay, if you reject and you’re critical? Yeah. Well, for me, my my father’s a minister, Episcopal minister. And so like I he grew up or not he grew up. When I was growing up. He was the, the moral and moral compass of the community, he set the standards kind of thing. So people look to him for that. So of course, I was completely contrary to that. Right, right. And then in long form, irony, I ended up becoming a teacher. And it mean, even by proxy a little bit, this podcast, like I’m becoming the moral compass of like, the next generation kind of thing. So like, it’s one of those really interesting things like, we all as creative people, we want to be contrary, but we also want to participate. So like I don’t want to I don’t want to be contrary, so contrary that nobody even acknowledges me or sees my worth or whatever, or respects me, that’s a huge word for me respect, by the way, but but I, but I need to be participating. So like, yeah, it’s a tough line to balance. Like, I want to be outside. But I also want to be inside.

Betsy Schneider 52:34
Right, right. I mean, it’s when you said that it also all of a sudden explained to me something that’s that is another point of tension, I’ve always felt was this idea about teaching and creating art, and that somehow one sacrifices the other. And I’ve worked really hard. For me, they’re integral I had one semester where I wasn’t teaching. And I realized, like, I just sat around that I need to teach him to make the art, but also what you’ve said to about, I forgot exactly how it was gonna articulate. But I think there’s something really important there about a willingness to admit that we want to be invested. And that we’re, I guess, at the key teaching, you know, how do we teach people that both to care and to be invested, but also take risks, and also that it kind of that impossible space? I think that artists have to exist, and that mentoring other people to exist in that, for me is really meaningful. And it helps me get past that dichotomy of real artists don’t don’t need to teach kind of bullshit, actually, we’re always told, we need to be pushing the boundaries, we need to be trying something new, we need to come up with something that’s never been done before, you know that this is what we’re being encouraged to do. yet. We’re also encouraged to play within an existing system that wants us to do what’s already been done before. So it’s very hard because they want us to work outside of the system in order to be accepted by the system. Yeah, yeah. And it’s it taken to one logical conclusion. It’s absurd. And it’s, it’s impossible. And if you’re, if you’re genuine, I mean, here’s some, if you have integrity, or you’re genuine or authentic, or all these words that actually have become part of the catchphrases now, but if you really are you, you’ll be split into a million pieces. And I think a lot of us are the trying to negotiate being a part of an institution being a part of the system. And being authentic. I know I feel like that word is so inauthentic the second I use it, I’m like, oh, but

Matthew Dols 54:46
having integrity. Bees now all sound like hashtags to me. And they totally do. Yeah, I know. I mean, the authentic people, I think of it like there’s this guy in the Czech Republic t Shea. Have you ever heard of him? He says He literally was mentally unstable, or like Henry darja? Or Oh yeah, those kinds of like, they’re authentic. Like his, he didn’t give a shit. Like he did not think of himself as an artist, he just thought himself as I’m going to, like, draw the crazy that’s in my head. For me, right and write are intended for anybody else to see, that’s authentic, like me, those, those gang there, they make things simply because they need to make it and it has no relevance to anybody else, connecting with anybody else, engaging in the system or anything. Like they don’t care about any of that, like this guy t shirt. He literally made his cameras from trash. So like he built his own cameras from garbage. And then like, developed it in his kitchen sink. And his his house was a mess, everything is destroyed everything. Everything’s got stains and tears. And it’s all of this just like made from the worst possible materials. And that’s what makes them so amazing. Like, he didn’t care. And yeah, that’s what like, makes it you know, that’s what makes Henry darker. That’s what makes you know, Jay Bryant and all these other people that are like these outside, quote unquote, like outsider artists, like probably the most authentic artists we have.

Betsy Schneider 56:19
Right? Yeah. And it begs a lot of interesting questions. I mean, you can’t exist, most people can’t exist there. It’s on the edge of, you know, in the end, I mean, all the mythology about about mental illness and art, but this, these boundaries are really interesting. And these boundaries, these edges, like taking things how far can you go to the edge? And how much do you want to be in the system? I mean, I guess then there’s gradations, too, right with with that, which I think becomes

Matthew Dols 56:50
well, but then there are also different systems as well. There’s the right market, which is like selling art, then there’s the institutional system, which be sort of exhibiting sort of systems. So like, though, even in and of itself, the art world is sort of split, like, either you’re a selling artist, or you’re an exhibiting institutional artist. And that’s, those are two very different worlds that often don’t overlap.

Betsy Schneider 57:14
Right. Yeah, that’s a whole other interesting question to about. I mean, even I mean, back to the Guggenheim question of actually it can even I can’t even talk a little bit about about selling man in relation to that about this idea of, of how much how much you are what what does it mean when you’re in the system, and then what constitutes success in the system? And the idea to have I think the negative forces that that inform a lot of us as artists, this idea of envy, this apocryphal quote, I heard once that supposedly Richard Avedon, at Airbus’s funeral said, I knows if this is true, either. I wish I wish I could be an artist like she was. Someone said, No, you don’t. But it was like the idea. And I remember as a young person thinking, Wait a second. Richard Avedon envied our best I mean, of course, we all do, but then you’re like, no, it was her funeral too, for God’s sake. Right. But this that nobody’s happy, right? that nobody’s everybody’s envious of other people. Which I don’t I that’s also a myth that’s problematic to write a myth to think that that being deeply unhappy is also part of being an artist, because I think that’s a problem as well. But I do think this, like so you’re talking about, I mean, the Guggenheim was a big one. It was a big like, okay, I can, I can always say I have that. And it sounds stupid. That that matters, but it like it’s a little bit of a ability to be like, Okay, so this gallery, nobody can sell my work. Like I don’t my work doesn’t sell. So whatever. And I maybe I don’t try Okay,

Matthew Dols 59:00
we put a pin in that as well

Betsy Schneider 59:01
for put a pin in that in that. So anyway, I didn’t mean to go off but I think and for me living with and working for Sally man gave me an insight into into insecurities that were it was really good for me to see that that idea of self doubt. No matter how much success you get. There’s still self doubt is essential, basically to keep yourself making art making meaningful art i think i think that it was Sally it’s a little bit of part of who she is and her performance, but I do think it’s I think it’s genuine too. I think that like, every time you try something new, if you know it’s going to work as boring I guess.

Matthew Dols 59:51
I admire Sally man to no end. I mean, I may not love every series she’s ever produced, but I really admire how she has done Her career, and many, many, many of the images are very powerful to me because she was of my time. You know, like she she was the, the she was because I think I was finishing up my BFA when she sort of adjust put out at 12. And so like, that became sort of the big thing.

Betsy Schneider 1:00:18
We are the same HR.

Matthew Dols 1:00:21
Like everyone Yeah,

Betsy Schneider 1:00:22
yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:00:25
Yeah, I mean, she’s very much influential in my, my, my sphere, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I always wonder about her, you know, cuz she is a bit reclusive. And she does do a lot of interviews and things like that. So like, she’s a bit. I hope someday there’ll be a bit more I know she wrote a book recently the memoirs that that I haven’t read yet. I apologize for that. Sally if you’re listening, but I’ll get around to it. But here I’ll give you my you brought up Richard Avedon. This is my sort of like, this was a crushing blow to me at one point in my career. I had just graduated from my be a, and I had gotten a job working as Richard Avedon, his assistant. Oh, and I was like, well, that’s amazing. And so I was living in Iowa. And I was to fly to New York, and I was supposed to be there on Monday. And I and I had to call him and I said, I can’t make it on Monday because I have to graduate. So like, I literally, like have to walk across the you know, get my diploma, all that kind of crap. Can I come on Tuesday? And he said, If you can’t come on Monday, I don’t want you. And that’s it. conversation was done. And I’m like, wow, okay, on the one hand, that would have been an amazing opportunity. But on the other hand, holy shit, what a fucking asshole.

Betsy Schneider 1:01:51
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. I mean, those were ground rules, right? You immediately knew what you weren’t going to be dealing with or what you were if you had decided to skip your graduation.

Matthew Dols 1:02:06
Wow, couldn’t skip my grandma. My grandparents already set their tickets, hotels were booked like I couldn’t do that to all my family and all that. So I was like, fuck it. So I gave up the opportunity to work for Richard Avedon. So that my grandparents, my parents could see me walk across the stage.

Betsy Schneider 1:02:23
Yeah, you made the right choice.

Matthew Dols 1:02:26
Yeah, I wonder. I mean, I do I think yes. You know, emotionally family, you know, that kind of stuff. Absolutely. the right choice. But then when you look back on your career, I’m like, professionally, was that the best choice?

Betsy Schneider 1:02:41
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s, I think that that that gets to the core of some other things, though, that, like, you chose who you were, in a way that was like, making a choice about? Wow, that’s a good story.

Matthew Dols 1:02:58
That’s a I feel like it’s a sad story. But whatever.

Betsy Schneider 1:03:02
Yeah, I don’t know.

Matthew Dols 1:03:04
I’ve heard that he’s very difficult to work with. And so it took a certain kind of person to be able to work for and with him. And I, quite honestly, I don’t believe I would have lasted as his assistant. So yeah, yeah. Probably better in the long run.

Betsy Schneider 1:03:21
Yeah, there’s a lot of triggering a lot of thoughts about about that, and about egos. And I think, you know, I, and I don’t want to make this all about Sally, because I could talk a lot. It was a really, I mean, we continue to be close friends. And I think it was a really intense experience. And I think, I mean, she does she she is driven, and she has a huge ego. But ultimately, learning from her and being with her at she was a great mentor. She’s not like a natural teacher, like she would not. But she I learned so much about so many things from her. And she would, you know, she’s definitely not like about using her assistants to build her ego in that way at all. And I think that that’s interesting. I’ve heard similar stories about other will not be named high, high level fashion photographers are and how they treat assistants becoming part of building a system of this is what you do to people when you get power. And I don’t think that’s the only way to do it. But obviously, wow. Anyway, it’s a good story. Yeah, the story is better than the experience, actually. Maybe

Matthew Dols 1:04:34
I’ll tell you, I constantly joke with my wife over and over about the fact that I keep telling her that what I really want my life to lead up to by the time I pass away, hopefully, decades from now, is that I want a lot of good stories. I want my life to have been a lot of good stories. I don’t want to hear Yes, I did my job well, or Yes, I whatever. Like I don’t want to work a job or do A life that basically I don’t have any great stories. To me, that’s the best part of life is not only to have experience something, but then to be able to tell a great story from that experience. That’s To me, that’s the best part of life.

Betsy Schneider 1:05:15
Now. Well, that’s why doing a podcast is probably a really great thing for you.

Matthew Dols 1:05:19
You know, also my dad’s minister, and I’m a teacher. Yeah, that’s all kind of fits together. It’s

Betsy Schneider 1:05:24
kind of all together. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:05:27
All right. So I noticed on your CV that you do portfolio reviews for lensculture. Specifically, they’re online to lensculture Comm. I also do these, these are these anonymous reviews, which I really quite enjoyed to do in many ways. It’s a bit tedious and annoying in other ways, but I really love them, because the fact that they’ve constructed them in a way that they are anonymous. So I as a reviewer, can be a little I feel like I can be a little bit more honest with the reviews because they don’t know who I am. But on the same hand, I know that they probably would get more out of it, if they did know who was doing the reviews kind of thing to like, they would understand the perspective that was being brought to them. So anyways, that’s all about my experiences, how of your experience has been doing any form of portfolio reviews, and or reviews, anonymously on lensculture.

Betsy Schneider 1:06:24
Just recently, through another interview process. So a woman who is a teacher that I know, talked about, we’re talking about things going online, and she mentioned that she’s, she’s Indian descent, she’s a woman, and she said teaching online. This last semester, she got more respect than she’s gotten before. And I think that that connects to what you’re saying. I hadn’t thought about that with the lensculture reviews. When I was doing it pretty intensively at a time when I wasn’t teaching one, it was feeling something I needed to be able to give my opinion. But some people back in this way with I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten this feedback, like who are you. And like for you to say this. And I was like, I got really close to writing like, mentioned the good. I got really close to start mentioning like my CV and I thought that’s not the point. And the ability to listen to people, people making really crafting really good criticism in a time timely manner, right? Because these reviews really get paid. It’s piecemeal work, right? It’s better economy or gig economy, better economy. So there’s this balance between giving people in or giving people something that felt really valuable, and being honest, but then not being cruel, right. So I thought

Matthew Dols 1:07:44
it was an interesting challenge. The system is built in a very interesting way where basically, we as the review, ORS get to choose who we think we can give good feedback to. So the I’m not given some like, absolutely horrible portfolio that I’m like, oh, I’ve got to say something nice about this. And it’s just atrocious. So like, I get to choose, and you say, Okay, I think I can say something to this person and help them in some way. So there is a certain amount of like, I think I have something beneficial for them. But in the same way, you’re right. Sometimes I get people pushing back because they don’t really like my thing is is like there are certain people that take criticism well, and certainly do not take criticism. Well. I have generally found through my experiences, anybody who defines themselves as professional does not take criticism well.

Betsy Schneider 1:08:36
Oh, interesting, because they think they’ve made it correct. I think they’re there. Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:08:41
Yeah. So I’ve stopped doing reviews for anybody who lists themselves self defined as professional because I know they’re going to be a pain in the ass. Interesting.

Betsy Schneider 1:08:52
So just one more thing that I noticed about lensculture is there were a few people, because you, we can read a little bit about them. And there’s a few people that came up and I was like, Alright, this is someone at my level. And I often found that they when they were at, and this sounds really a very high level, the kind of person that would be reviewing themselves, they were actually usually pretty good about taking it. I don’t know, maybe you didn’t find it that way.

Matthew Dols 1:09:21
I had one experience that just wouldn’t put a bad taste in my mouth. But somebody wrote back a very nasty email to me about like, basically saying, like, I’m very good, and I’m very well respected and Who the hell are you to give me this feedback? And I’m just like, well, then why did you ask for

Betsy Schneider 1:09:39
it? That’s exactly why did you just want someone to say how great you are? I mean, that’s like,

Matthew Dols 1:09:45
Yeah, I don’t, I want to be really clear with you because in case somebody from lens cultures hears this, like, I enjoy working for lens culture, and I think overall, the entire project of sort of giving port online reviews is fabulous. You know, I am in No way discouraged by that or dissuaded by that. But there are those random people that just I, you know, basically like, I think when people choose to have a portfolio review, they need to be ready for the feedback, positive or negative, specific, more than negative. and be ready for that because I, I’ve been a review person, like I have sat in portfolio reviews, and they have been soul crushing, like people. Like, they’ll just sit there and be like, so. Why do you think this is interesting? Like, oh, wow, yeah. I got. Yeah, no, and you have to know you have to be willing to take the feedback of like, you’re not there yet.

Betsy Schneider 1:10:44
Yeah, I To this day, hate it when people when I find out that my work isn’t what I think it is. But and it makes me mad and, and then I’m really grateful that someone’s telling me that, you know,

Matthew Dols 1:10:57
I recently had a guest on the podcast who I’ve met who is a curator who I then off my ask them to review my work. And they, they just ripped into me. They just like just did not like my work at all. Like, oh, okay, I thought we were gonna be friends. All right. I guess not. Wow. So, yeah, but don’t get me wrong. All legitimate feedback.

Betsy Schneider 1:11:24
Like, yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:11:24
everything ripped me about. Yeah, I was crushed for like a week. I was like, why am I still doing this work? Oh, my God, this person absolutely hates it. It’s just ridiculous. I don’t know what I’m doing. But I’m still in the process of doing it. So I have the ability to make changes, you know. So like, there’s an interesting shift of like, I love getting feedback, while I’m still working on something. But once it is completed, and it’s out in the world, just either you accept it, but just don’t give me any negative feedback once it’s completed.

Betsy Schneider 1:11:59
Yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:12:00
yeah, that’s my ego.

Betsy Schneider 1:12:02
I think there’s different and from being a teacher, because I think that this is a huge value that art education has is that teaching people how to how to take criticism and generationally, this generation is notorious, this generation of, for not being particularly good at that. And I think they need they need that. I think we all need it, to be honest, right? That to act like Whoo, this, again, back to that this generation. But I do think that, that this idea of being able to take criticism, but I also think that critiquer critiki, the reviewer needs to understand what you just said is that people, people need different kinds of criticism at different places in the process. And there are times where the criticism is, is going to be soul crushing, and just kind of like mean, and there’s times where we’re there that maybe even the exact same criticism, would be really, really useful and get people to change their track or see their work from a different way. But yeah, I think I think that the idea the concept of critiquing, and that is critique and criticism and engagement, and the idea of judging, you know, even teaching people that critique is different from judging, but then there is judging where you decide who gets the award and who doesn’t so well, but it’s all very interesting.

Matthew Dols 1:13:23
But judging doesn’t have any critique in it. Because it’s just we reward you this. Yes. doesn’t mean you’re good. But we do this.

Betsy Schneider 1:13:32
Exactly. It’s totally true. And you’re the flavor of the month Are you are, you know, you fit this demographic, or I like your work. And it reminds me of something that’s feels good to me, or I hate your work. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:13:47
it’s different. I mean, criticism across the board is difficult, like, I mean, when I tried to do my criticism, I tried to, you know, I always tried to stick to the idea of constructive criticism. So it’s never critical for the, for the intention of being malicious or mean, or or soul crushing or anything. Yeah. But But in order to try to push people to try to do better, and sometimes that comes off as rather cold and mean. But sometimes people need to be pushed like, I’m, you know, I constantly have these battles with my beans as a professor because I will, I will push people to figure out for themselves, what’s wrong. And I will push them really hard because if I coddle them and feed them the answers, they learned nothing. So like, the way they learn is by being challenged, and then figuring out how to overcome that challenge. That that’s my methodology of teaching. I think it’s Socratic method, I believe, yeah, that’s my method. And don’t get me wrong. It doesn’t work with everybody. Like I’ve had a lot of students who get very angry with me when I do that. And then I’ve got a lot of students who have extremely appreciative of it. So it’s very interesting, the whole dynamic of like, their different teaching methodologies and their learning methodologies. And, and unfortunately, they, they, you know, like I will in a classroom of 20, my methodology will probably work with five, and then there’ll be five that will just absolutely despise me. And then everybody in the middle is just like, Yeah, whatever. You know, he’s fine as a teacher, whatever.

Betsy Schneider 1:15:26
Yeah, that’s probably standard. standard for a good teacher.

Matthew Dols 1:15:30
Well, but and I think that’s true, no matter what methodology people take to like they could be the cobblers and there will be five people who love to being coddled, there’ll be five people who hate being coddled and the others will be like, at whatever, you know, like,

Betsy Schneider 1:15:43
yeah, yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:15:44
The whole idea that like, it’s like learning is the same, like that is all consistent, and you’re getting the same outcomes and stuff is never true, because it’s a it’s a relationship between the teacher and the students and how they each how one chooses to teach and how one chooses to learn. And they’re always different.

Betsy Schneider 1:16:06
Right. I think I think that’s it’s important on so many levels. That’s my soapbox. I agree. I agree with that. Definitely.

Matthew Dols 1:16:18
I’ve gotten in so many, so much trouble with so many Dean’s over that stuff. But anyways, I have two last questions that I’m asking people one. Are there three artists out there that you would like to sort of give a shout out to to try and encourage more people to look at?

Betsy Schneider 1:16:39
Oh, wow. This is like always the question. This is like the Monty Python, your favorite color question. I feel there’s

Matthew Dols 1:16:47
no wrong answer.

Betsy Schneider 1:16:48
I’m gonna name two people that are coming to mind that kind of random one is, and everybody already is looking at her, which is Amanda Gorman, who I think we’re all taken taken by her on so many levels. She’s the exact age of my daughter. And I think there’s something about that. Also, I think young. I think there’s a lot of young people at now that I’ve made the criticism that they can’t take critique, I think that they’re really some amazing people that are saying some really interesting things. And now I go way, way back, and Todd Haynes, Todd Haynes, as a filmmaker, but I watched the Karen superstar, the Karen Carpenter story where he tells the story with Barbie dolls. And I just still, I mean, I’d make my students watch it. And they’re like, Ah, this is so old. But he he comes up with someone for some reason, I feel like his ability to walk the line between empathy and privilege and seat being able to see whether it’s in his films while in his films, obviously, the and those are kind of just like, I got to think of one more person. I can’t I feel like I’m failing.

Matthew Dols 1:18:03
You don’t have a question.

Betsy Schneider 1:18:05
There’s so many out there, right. And it’s

Matthew Dols 1:18:08
so more than three, that’s fine. It was not a name. It’s just a number

Betsy Schneider 1:18:13
I read. They’re not, it’s not coming to my mind. I have to I’m failing you on this one.

Matthew Dols 1:18:17
Don’t stress over it. I will come to you can come back to it if you want to. Okay, final question is a simple one. Sort of any advice for the next generation?

Betsy Schneider 1:18:28
Yeah, that I mean, maybe that folds into my other my other answer and what we’ve talked about, as this has evolved about crossing these lines between openness. It’s hard not to make it trite and general, but open, you know, trusting yourself, and being open to hearing from other people that I do think that this generation has something really special right now to offer. I think, even pre pandemic, I was a real believer that there’s something and maybe it’s because of my project, and maybe it’s because of my kids. But I felt something in this. My students in the last five years have this belief that there is a promise of a more pluralistic society that that can be changed, and that art does matter. But critical art matters, too. And that to push yourself a little harder and to like if you’re going to use Tick tock, really make it your own, you know, and don’t use filters. This generation has a lot in common with the baby boomers, the good part of the baby boomers. Don’t be bad like the baby boomers don’t fall into that like arrogance and thinking that you’re so special, that you don’t have to continue to fight for integrity and what you care about and don’t lose. Don’t lose faith that you’re you’re inching us towards things being a little bit better, a little more fair.

Matthew Dols 1:19:55
All right. And actually, there’s one thing I forgot we put a pin in the issue of you selling your art Work.

Betsy Schneider 1:20:00
Yeah. I think that’s another thing where I come off on both sides once I think I’ve kind of copped out on it, like, I, I’m not good at playing the game, I’m very bad at business, I’m very uncomfortable with money, which is I think it’s made it so that I, I just assume, oh, who’s gonna want to buy pictures of kids. But I’m very uncomfortable with the gallery system. But like, like, let me tell you, if you’ll see Melo called me up tomorrow and said, Betsy, I want to have a show, I would be over the moon. So I live on. On both sides. I would like great I’d like people to buy and I do I once did have one guy, a great guy, Joe bio buy giant piece. And I’m proud of that. And it was nice to have the money, but

Matthew Dols 1:20:46
I’m not good at that world. If it’s a tough world, and it’s a different world, like it’s a whole, as I said earlier, like the institutional world versus the market world. Like it’s a it’s its own little sub genre within the art world of like selling your art. Like, I love being in the studio and producing works. So like whether it’s whatever medium, I’m working, like producing works. I love editing, I love finishing up putting a frame on it, like doing all that kinds of right. I love everything about the moment I’m done with that. I really don’t care. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Being on an exhibition. I love putting on an exhibition. But like, Am I going to really put as much time and effort into putting on an exhibition or finding an opportunity to put on an exhibition or finding somebody to sell my work to? Or am I going to put that devote that time to making more work? I’m always going to choose make more work? Yeah,

Betsy Schneider 1:21:41
yeah, that actually, I think I agree with that, too.

Matthew Dols 1:21:44
It’s really sad, though, like that. That’s the thing that’s like, holding us back. I need a personal assistant who focuses on my marketing public relations type. And if I can get somebody to do that, for me, I actually would probably be reasonably successful. Not very successful, but

Betsy Schneider 1:22:02
reasonably successful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can I think I’m with you on that one, I think. Yeah, if I can have someone do that part for me. That would, that would help. I’m much more. Yeah. When in doubt, I, you know, as we said at the beginning, I’ve got a bunch of other projects that can use my attention. So

Matthew Dols 1:22:20
well, they said things like, we went into the creative industries, because generally we’re bad at business. Most of us would agree. Yes, there are the rare you know, the Damien Hirst, the Jeff Koons, the people that are phenomenal at business and mediocre and making art, but that’s my opinion. But the it’s really, it’s a difficult balance to ride like most artists are horrible at being business people. And so like, and yet, we’re being told that we should be better business people in order to make a living. And it’s like, that’s not why we chose it. Like I chose it, because I didn’t want to do that kind of crap.

Betsy Schneider 1:22:57
Right? Right. Exactly. And that everything that goes with that,

Matthew Dols 1:23:01
but it’s all there like to be a successful artist is still being a business person. Like, my best advice as a teacher, just to potential art students that want to go out of school is take a business class.

Betsy Schneider 1:23:14
Yeah, yeah. That’s, yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:23:18
we mean, how much time do you spend doing taxes and like legal crap, and publicity and marketing and sending your workout for competitions or gallery representation, or whether like, all the just like the paperwork and the legalities, we end up spending far more time doing all that stuff than we do actually producing artwork. And that’s so sad to me.

Betsy Schneider 1:23:42
Well, another way to say it, too, could also be if you want to be your own boss, you have to know how to be your own boss. And you’re gonna have to know a lot of other things that as much as having that freedom is great. There’s a lot of responsibility that comes with that. So I yeah, and I hate that part, but necessary evil. Yeah. I thought of tomorrow artists

Matthew Dols 1:24:07
actually go right ahead.

Betsy Schneider 1:24:08
So she was actually a professor of mine at the school, the Art Institute, Mimi bomb, and she’s just had a book, what are two books that have come out? White sky? blew me away. So I would say maybe plum and Amani will it? Who is a Boston area of Boston based photographer now who did a book called the parallel road, which is based on the Green Book, the African American Motors book. Those would be my two call outs right now. In addition to the other one so

Matthew Dols 1:24:42
great. Yeah, I mean, my ideas is like we’re building a network here through the podcast. So want to try and sort of expand that network. Let’s get some more people interested in some some people that aren’t getting enough. Whatever attention?

Betsy Schneider 1:24:53
Yeah, well, definitely those two, I think they’re there. They’re like, interesting people too. So

Matthew Dols 1:25:00
Fabulous. Well thank you very much for your time.

Betsy Schneider 1:25:03
You’re welcome. Thank you. This is really fun.

Matthew Dols 1:25:08
I hope you’re enjoying and learning from the podcast as much as I am. If you’d liked the podcast, we would appreciate a five star rating and Please tell your friends to listen and subscribe to, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If there’s a person or a collective out in the art world you want to hear me talk with please send me a message with a link to who they are through Instagram at the wise for pod. Additionally, if you have any questions for future guests, like you want to know how to write an artist statement or you want to know how they deal with creative blocks or you want to how they got their job or you know how they make a living. Send me the questions and I’ll ask future guests your questions. Please be sure also to follow us on Instagram and tell your friends as well. Whatever you’re doing now, have fun

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com