Transcript for Episode 144 – Independent Curator + Writer, Fatoş Üstek (London, UK)

Recorded January 21, 2021
Published on February 4, 2021

Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/independent-curator-writer-fatos-ustek-london-uk/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:11
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?

Fatoş Üstek 0:14
Fatoş Üstek

Matthew Dols 0:15
and you’re from Turkey, but you’re currently in London. So like, how did that happen?

Fatoş Üstek 0:22
Yes, I have a dual nationality actually, after living in the UK for many years, I have also become British. It was actually quite interesting in the sense that I became British two days after the Brexit vote. So you know, definitely 2016

Matthew Dols 0:41
Is that good? Or is that bad?

Fatoş Üstek 0:43
I wish I could have voted. I mean, not that I would change the result, imagine that one vote, but I wish I was too close to be able to vote in the country that I was residing. But as you said, I’m from Turkey. I was I was born there. And I grew up there. I had my education there. And then afterwards, I moved out, traveled and lived in different countries. And I think it’s more like UK chose me rather than me choosing UK. But then I settled here, and now I’m British two.

Matthew Dols 1:14
All right. But your background now your childhood? How did you even get into curating? Because it’s not like, it’s not something? If there’s no classes in general education? Like there’s no, how do you get to curating where like, were you introduced to arts as a very young age from your family from school? How did you get that sort of bug?

Fatoş Üstek 1:33
The thing is, the word curator was a foreign word and Turkey in the 90s. And so it didn’t even exist as a kind of, you know, what will keishon or, or, or a job role that you would want. And, I mean, in many countries, I guess it’s the same, but also many that that’s like countries that are developing countries, you know, your parents want you to on your grandparents want you to become a doctor, or teacher or lawyer, that is some kind of a very concrete job with a concrete title. And also, you know, a regular income. And then I introduced the idea of curating to my family diverse, slightly curious what it really meant. And for me, I didn’t even know what it meant, even after I was curious and interested in it. And my interest in curating started in the late 90s, early 2000s. And before that, you know, like, also, in my close family, we don’t have many people who are in the arts. So that was also a kind of a different vocation, as well. As I said, you know, engineering is the more has a bigger or higher rank, then someone who works in the arts. And it was in my early college years that I was interested in, I mean, I have to say, is somewhat biannual, was really an institution for me to kind of like, engage with contemporary art and learn from its additions. And because at the time, we didn’t have, you know, like a Museum of Modern Art and some in Turkey. I mean, at the time, I was living in Istanbul, and we didn’t have many other institutions that disseminated art, except galleries that were backed by commercial banks. And of course, their programming and their responsibility of contributing to the culture was at a different level than any international art biennial. In a nutshell, it wasn’t something that I knew I was going to be, it was almost like, I happen to be a curator and writer as well.

Matthew Dols 3:40
All right, but give me a little like, step by step like, did you start off with like working at a coffee shop? And then working somewhere? Like, how did you sort of get to, you know, because like, I’m thinking, if I’m a young kid, and somehow I’m thinking, like curating my thing that I want to be doing, like, Are there any sort of like, standard sort of job positions to try to attain to sort of get yourself into that direction?

Fatoş Üstek 4:05
I did many jobs, actually. So I worked for Istanbul Cultural Foundation, and I’ve worked for all their festivals, you know, theater, music, electronic music festival Film Festival, I was interested in film also, I have a degree in film as well. So I was you know, I was an assistant working with members of press or taking people around, as well as welcoming musicians or singers to the festival, taking care of them, making sure that they find their hotel and making sure that they you know, like to enough to their concert. All these things are, were very important for me to be part of that cultural hub spot, I’d say.

Matthew Dols 4:47
Well, I used to do things like I used to be a roadie. I used to do the lights and the sound for rock and roll bands on tour. So like it was a great long part. I only remember maybe 1/3 of it, but it was a good time. So

Fatoş Üstek 5:04
that is so nice because a friend of mine, actually, I think it was again, like early 2000s moniteau when he was like, you know, really high up and hitting all the, all the best of the lists. He came to Istanbul for a concert. And then my friend was assisting him and his band, they got on so well, then she actually toured with them throughout whole Europe afterwards. And they were all envying. I mean, like, she kind of, I think, post her studies at the time, because we were all in college, you know, this was a kind of alternative income, very minimal, but at the same time, very pleasurable way of, you know, generating income for yourself and supporting yourself while really being part of the very exciting conversation and find a drink, too. You know, it’s, you know, it’s not like it doesn’t have regular working hours. It’s not like, okay, five o’clock, you go home, like, Oh, it’s problem solving. And

Matthew Dols 5:57
it’s five o’clock time to go to work is mean, we would work from 5pm till 4am. But I mean, I was in my schooling when I did it as well. Actually, I was at the Corcoran and DC getting my BFA and I scheduled all my classes on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. So then I toured Thursday through Sunday, and then came back into classes Monday through Wednesday through Wednesday, so it was marvelous. That is great. Yeah, long time ago, million miles away.

Fatoş Üstek 6:29
So yeah, mine too. Bye. Close to somehow I still remember myself in those situations, you know, like when you’re troubleshooting or you have to find something. So last minute, or the cables don’t match, you know, all these things.

Matthew Dols 6:44
Oh, I remember them fondly. It’s just me. And for me, it was it was also like when I was still doing drugs, and I quit doing drugs, you know, hardcore drugs and all that jazz. But you know, some some some drugs are still fine, but, but like hardcore drugs, quit doing those bad. Yeah. And so like, that sort of is literally a different lifetime for me. So that’s farther away from me, I hope. Yeah, God, I’m not doing heroin and cocaine anymore. haven’t done it in 20 years. But it wasn’t very fond time in my life.

Fatoş Üstek 7:18
But I think it was also with the culture as well. I don’t know like with the younger generation, they don’t have that the culture I really feel it was also kind of like the epitome of the time. I used to smoke for instance, and because everybody all my friends smoked it was it wasn’t like all I want to smoke. Exactly. It was more you know, as part of it, like you work on too late, you’re waiting for the band to come out. And then you would have a you know, cigarette break because it was a way of like, giving yourself a bit of a private space. I think it’s really like they’re like each generation I think has their own specific cultures. Like, you know, today we are talking about like Gen Zed the fact that they don’t drink the fact that they’re like, you know, so conscious of like zero waste, or Yeah, exactly. You know, like, for me going out is like having lots of drinks and dancing. Of course, I can dance without drinking, but it’s always nice to kind of have a combination of both.

Matthew Dols 8:14
Oh, yeah. You always think you’re a better dancer when drinking. I totally get it. Yeah, I mean, okay, I believe you, I I’ve never seen you dance. But yeah, like I started smoking when I was in college. And I with photography, one of the things was in the dark wet darkroom, that we would have to leave our prints to be washed for like a half an hour before we could really sort of take them out and look at them and stuff. And so I would have to sit there for long stretches of waiting for chemistry to resolve itself and my friends would go out for cigarettes and lo and behold, I ended up partaking and there you go, that’s how I started.

Fatoş Üstek 8:53
My interest in art actually really was sparked off when I started at photography arts club and our college and our university. And I really have almost like Picasso’s blue period, I have a dark period because I just lived in the darkroom people were really curious who I was because I would just go in there you know, and I love the process of developing images. It has some kind of inherent magic in the whole thing and all the like the chemical smell everything on you smells like terribly your head never goes out of it, but at the same time, you are in there part of that kind of creative process that was so very special.

Matthew Dols 9:41
I love the smell of a darkroom. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Fatoş Üstek 9:46
Everybody’s got their 45

Matthew Dols 9:50
I I was just I just recorded another podcast with the photographer and he was saying how like there’s a cologne now that smells like developer Callaway for photographers to smell like a darkroom. But I’m not sure I’d want to do that. But I enjoy the smell in a darkroom. I’m not trying to enjoy the smell out of a darkroom. But okay, one thing, we’ve had some previous conversations prior to this recording. So like one thing that has struck me that I sort of wanted to know about as curators, I feel like have individual sort of styles, whether it’s styles of thing of subject matters they’re interested in, or whether it’s sort of styles or techniques of coming to their ideas. So like, how would you define both sort of, like the subject matters you’re interested in, but also sort of the way in which you manifest an idea?

Fatoş Üstek 10:43
Absolutely. I mean, as we all have mentioned before, I’m very much interested in concept driven gradual approach, you know, there are many different approaches like you can be, you know, in the in the curatorial canon, you can be specialized in a certain period, or in a certain movement, like impressionist painting, or 70s. modernity in South America. And that specialisms are also very interesting. Exactly, you know, like, it might be very niche, but also at the same time, it brings a different kind of, like, pack of knowledge with it. And my approach is more about, you know, it’s also it’s a different way, it’s like, I’m very much interested in concepts. And that’s also a bit like, you know, concepts that are backed by philosophy, as well as, like sociology, or theories that are inherent in the world, or in our, you know, like, what you come across which, and also like, what you kind of connect wet, one having one experience to another, and I’m very much interested in open concepts, and then engaging artists in a conversation, and I work a lot with commissioning, and you work, there is like, kind of a very interesting excitement to that risk of like, making it you know, like making a new thing happening or supporting a new work happen. So in that sense, I wouldn’t be I wouldn’t, you know, like, entitled myself as periodic curator, neither, you know, there’s another rating methodology that is called assess, curating where it’s all about, like, you know, treating the exhibition as a text. And also, it’s almost like writing an essay, or what is, you know, like, what is like a novel for fiction, you choreograph the exhibition, and that choreography, I think really necessitates pre existing works, instead of like nuclear missions to really tightly put together an exhibition of what you’re trying to say. And I mean, you know, like, for me, this kind of a concept driven approach into curating enables an openness. Yes, you know, every exhibition is a recontextualization of an artwork. So an artwork has a different context, when it is in the studio, in different contexts, it gains another layer of meaning and another layer of contextualization. So I think it’s about like, with the responsibility of the form and the content and the context in which you’re introducing the artwork. It’s really about like, how do you create openings, so that could be multiple readings and multiple experiences of exhibition? By the audiences as well as by you know, like, the artists and, and the practitioners themselves?

Matthew Dols 13:39
Okay, so what I’m hearing is that you as if, like, let’s say, if it were If it were up to you, so budgets and, and space, anything is your choice, and No, nobody gives you any constraints on that. You would choose to do commissioned exhibitions versus putting together an exhibition of existing works.

Fatoş Üstek 13:59
I definitely have a tendency, I mean, like, maybe it could be like 90%, new commissions, and then 10%, existing works, because it’s also about, you know, like, it’s bit like music, you know, you need some notes that are almost like, reference points, not that they become the cluster points where they are the heaviest, most important works in the exhibition, but reference points where you can have different relationships happening, or when you’re referring to the exhibition, there is a visual representation of it, especially when you’re, you know, because when you’re discussing and introducing the exhibition to a wider group of recipients, you do need some, how can I say reference points that could be also like the works, the previous works of the artists that are part of the exhibition, in short, majority would be commissions. That would be my ideal project, and what our scale

Matthew Dols 15:00
Okay, the reason why I asked though is because what that sounds like to me is, as a curator, you seem to be interested in sort of the the oeuvre of an artist, the style, the the the concepts of the things they’re engaging with, either via materials or ideas. And then you want to see what they could do knew if you put them in certain limitations or give them certain constraints, whether it be time or budget, or whatever. And that’s an interesting thing, because that, to me, from my background, that’s the, that’s very foreign to me. I’ve never I’ve almost never done commissions, I’ve done like three in my entire life. I hated every one of them. But but but but they were private commissions. So like, basically, more or less, like people said, like, take a portrait of my dog. That’s not what happened is not what happened. But basically, that’s how it felt to me. So the idea of, you’re sort of doing it through the art, through the curatorial process that you get to commissioned them to make work sounds more like you’re building relationships with these people. And so like, you like to work with them, you like to build something with them, you like to create something new with them as a as a collaborative process versus just going, I love this piece, can I hang it on this wall? And that, to me sounds sort of a bit like a very contemporary idea for curators. Am I wrong?

Fatoş Üstek 16:29
It’s a very interesting way of seeing it to be honest. Like it definitely it has a collaborative ethos, but I haven’t really articulated that way. For me, you know, what is very important is the practice of the artists, I don’t necessarily focus on one work, and two that work define the artists and artistic practice, but I’m very much interested in the pool of the artworks. And I mean, as you are an artist yourself, perhaps you would say you would attest to it, you know, not every work you do is the masterpiece, or the most defining work of your practice. But I think, no, no,

Matthew Dols 17:05
everything I make is a masterpiece. I have no, I’m so sorry. Okay, and except you, there are many artists that are getting totally kidding, yes.

Fatoş Üstek 17:17
But it’s about, you know, like really knowing how can I say engaging with all the works of art that the artist is produced to also build a sense of the nature of their practice, instead of defining what their practices but like really almost, it’s about, it’s a very thin line between the finishing and having a sense of something, because then that having a sense of is much more open, because then you’ve would not run your commissioning, as the artist to do an artwork that is that like, you know, your your picture of a dog example, a bit like that work and a bit less like the other work, it’s really about, you know, engaging with the language, the logic of that artists thinking, and then supporting them when thinking it or not for a new context responding to a new idea, supporting them through the foundations of their practice, if I could make it clear. So in that sense, that is really a relationship as well, you know, it’s like, it’s very unrelated, but I like this quote, you know, like loving someone is knowing the song in their heart and singing to them, and they have forgotten. And in a way, I feel my work that the artists are the same as another, you know, like, in a way of romantic love relationship, but it’s actually really engaging with the song that that they have in the heart of their practice, and supporting them to, you know, like, keep playing that song or keep growing that song, keep writing that song. Because also, like, I think every artwork adds to your practice as well, as well as every artwork, I would really speculate as to the definition of art, there isn’t a fixed definition of art. But you know, it’s of course, like, what gets visible, what’s get added to the historical canon is a totally different thing. But I really think you know, like every action is part of a bigger texture.

Matthew Dols 19:22
I’m not going to entertain the conversation of like defining art, that’s just going to be problematic no matter what I say, because I’m sure I’ll stick my foot in my mouth. So But okay, when you commission works, there’s like, I, in my history, like there are places that I love, like there’s this place called crownpoint press in San Francisco, and what they do is they’re a printmaking facility. But what they do is they choose artists who have never worked in printmaking, to come and do a residency there and work in a new medium basically, so and so. So they they choose painters and sculpt And other people who have never done printmaking to do it. So I guess the question would be like, when you’re doing your curatorial commissioning? Do you look at what they do and just say, Okay, I want you to do this except bigger, or I want you to do this except sort of more towards this concept? Or do you sort of push them a little bit more to sort of maybe go outside their comfort zone?

Fatoş Üstek 20:23
In a way? Yes. But also no at the same time. So what happens is, I don’t know. It’s about also like the passion and excitement, I am very excited and passionate about the conversation, but also about art. So when we are having a conversation with the artist, and when they’re presenting their idea for a new work, I get more excited, and my excitement excites them. And then then the project kind of like almost grows on a much more kind of organic way. And I can say that, you know, looking back, I work with some artists that they have done to date have not now but like until we worked together. Their biggest larger scale work was also the work that we’ve you know, like I’ve curated or we work together. And that is like almost like a natural kind of evolution of that conversation. I mean, I can perhaps like give a reference to fig to, which is this 50 exhibitions in 50 weeks that I curated in 2015, or throughout throughout 2015. One thing I found out that not many people know how many weeks are there in a year, because when they heard 50 weeks, they would say half a year, or maybe it’s more than a year and a half. And I was like I think it’s Christmas. You can’t have an exhibition and Christmas, nobody will come. You know. So that’s why it was 50 weeks.

Matthew Dols 21:57
That’s so what is not the opposite of secular? What is it like? So religious? Why Why only Christmas? Why not? Hanukkah went out other like? Yeah, because it was taking place in the UK. And it’s a Christian society,

Fatoş Üstek 22:12
society. And I mean, the formula of 50 exhibitions and 50 weeks was not my unique idea. It was actually originally conceptualized by Mark Francis, who is a curator and currently a director at Gaussian. He did that project in the year 2000. On a in like a Georgian house in middle of Soho, but it’s also much catch here. 50 and 50 as much sketchier than 52 and 52. It just doesn’t roll off the tongue quite as nicely. That is true. That is true. There are those numbers No, like, yeah, seven days in the art world. 15 submissions and 50 weeks. Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s a much nicer number. I agree with you. I like 50 as a number, it’s kind of like has been haunting me. My life actually, you know, like I did many, many things. That was with 50. Anyway, going back to Vic two. I was 15 years after fig one. I was given a carte blanche to do a program throughout a whole year. And ICA gave us the studio that we could operate from. And there was also a budget

Matthew Dols 23:22
ICA in in London Institute of Contemporary Art. Thank you. Yeah, I’m not in London and most of the listeners are probably not in London. So I’m just, you know, give me the full name. That’s,

Fatoş Üstek 23:34
of course the ICA there are many ICS around the world. This one is the one in London.

Matthew Dols 23:39
There’s an international contemporary art place in New York, I think called ICA. So like yeah, I see aysa

Fatoş Üstek 23:47
ICA Boston, there are many Icos definitely. So you’re super Right. I mean, this ICA was founded in like 1946 by artists. So it’s also very interesting constellation or an institution as well. Anyway, they gave me the space and the budget. And I also had incredible team. We were very small team, only like three others Eve, Irena and Jessie. What was important for me was to pass that carte blanche to the artists as well. So I think I like I like teasing. And I think I’ve really like being playful. And you know, bit more, you know, when you said like, pushing boundaries, I like pushing boundaries. I like alternative perspectives, not for the sake of it, or I don’t do that with a big force. But it’s more in in the way of being our way of communicating or doing things so what I then would go and tell the artists that okay, what would you like to do what you have always dreamed off and never done. If you had a space. If you Had a budget. What is your innermost desire? Let’s do that. And of course, that offer excites by its nature, because then you were like, okay, I can do anything. But the ended up really, you know, it was almost like a blessing and a curse in its own right, because of course, when the desires go high up, you want to even go higher and then and then the workload and the necessity necessitated funding becomes beyond what you have as a budget. But that was never an obstacle for me. I fundraised while we were curating and going through, almost like, I think 1/3 of additional budget, I fundraise throughout that year for each specific project, because some of them really needed bigger budgets. And what we had was very miniscule. Anyway, long story, short photographers that performances, you know, video artists that transformed the space into heavy metal rock band concert, and then after it became a casting studio for the TVC online web series, so it was also about like, you know, introducing that playfulness to them as well, because it was a weak, you know, in a way, wincon is very short. They can be also very long, it can be, you know, something that you do that really energizes you, meanwhile, you’re building your masterpiece, or something that could be you know, like the start of your masterpiece that you test out. Or it is the masterpiece that’s just there.

Matthew Dols 26:37
Okay, you’re, you’re telling me sort of the greatest hits of all these things. What I’m also very interested in, because you brought it up about like failures on my part, saying that I am not masterful, it’s fine. That have any of these collaboration ever failed? have anybody though, on anybody’s side? I’m not looking for blame. And you don’t have to say names. But I mean, have there ever been circumstances where the thing didn’t work for whatever reason?

Fatoş Üstek 27:05
The thing is, I don’t see any failure. But looking back, I would, you know, layout exhibition differently. With some works, I would have shown other works of the artists, etc. So like looking back, I feel the exhibitions could be richer. Because there was one exhibition, I can’t even give a name like youngin. Home, and he she was on week six. And she wanted to do theater performance, like a contemporary dance theater performance. And we concentrated so much on the production because it was a big production. There were five performers, there were two musicians. One was a Korean shaman drumming, the other was a violinist. And it was an incredible piece. And we also had a video crew that filmed the whole performance on the opening night. And then we didn’t sleep at night, until early hours in the morning, we edited the video footage with the artist to install as a video installation in the exhibition space on Tuesday morning to open at 10am on Tuesday. I mean, we did those things several times, by the way, we did also with Ben Judd, you know, like the next day, the performance became a three channel video installation in the space. You know, overnight editing again, that was not a problem. I think it was more like when you and I think that is very interesting in curating and I would also maybe ask you what you think about artists, you know, being an artist and production, it’s really about always keeping the big picture, when you channel your energies to one side, because that is the most complicated part that actually demands much more energy, then you can really go astray and slightly lose balance. And I would really say younguns exhibition actually could have been much stronger if we had given ourselves the space to also give it a push think much more thoroughly than only doing the performance but it was also the first performance we’ve done the first time we use the ice theater, it’s like a big space, etc, etc. I would say maybe those were like the hiccups and that programming, failure wise, like sometimes it’s also about what I’ve really learned, you know, is that planning is very important. And really like thinking and reassessing. Creating feedback loops in what you do is very important. Because things happen, like we were commissioning this mural or art nights that are curated in 2017 across East London. we commissioned this wall mural with the City of London cooperation. It’s by a Turkish artist. She actually came on Didn’t see to London she worked with residents of one of the two, there’s only two council estates that city of Milan and cooperation looks after. And we were really in like Tower Hamlets City of London acne areas. So it’s almost like the Council of State is almost like kind of squeezed between the guard cane or all these, you know, big skyscrapers of the city. And it’s on the verge of like the, you know, traditional or more like the kind of 19th century East London and the 21st century is London. And we work with the residents. And then we mapped their dreams and desires or how they related to their city onto a banner. And then it was becoming a mural. And the festival was one night only festival. So you can’t delay, you know, you can’t actually not install the work and expect people to come the next day, because something didn’t go wrong, everything has to happen. So, you know, we planned in advance, so we actually had this crew who was going to paint the wall. And on the day that they started painting the wall. For some reason, bt installed two giant foam cabinets on both sides of the wall, and dug up the whole pedestrian area. So the paint is good. And they’re accessid. And that was again, you know, the permission was given by the Council as well. So that was you know, and then of course, two days later was the festival and we had a press launch, etc. It was it was quite interesting to kind of like do that on site or on the spot troubleshooting. I definitely went on from, you know, freedom of commissioning, to troubles of what can happen when you’re commissioning new work, but

Matthew Dols 31:51
yeah, not not at all. I mean, it’s generally artistic practice in general, like the best laid plans like it, I always say, like, I have this sort of jest with my wife about this is where I say, I like a certain amount of consistency in order to allow for a certain amount of spontaneity. So like, you know, you have to have a certain amount of things that are planned and organized and set in order to be able to be free to allow for things to go wrong, and that you can easily react to them. Because you’re not worried about those things that you’ve already planned. Like the plan things are done, don’t have to worry about those anymore. But there’s then there’s a certain amount of openness and spontaneity though of things that can occur that you could never have foreseen. That might be a problem, but it also might be a blessing in disguise kind of thing. So like having that blend is sort of a necessary part of the creative endeavor.

Fatoş Üstek 32:45
Absolutely, absolutely. So well put, it’s really about that balance of serendipity and knowing and not necessarily over controlling, and not necessarily being you know,

Matthew Dols 32:56
cool about it, control what you can and allow what you can’t to be what, uh, you know, have him have a you. There’s also the like the old, what does it plan for the better no hope for the best plan for the worst?

Fatoş Üstek 33:10
Yeah, that’s true. It’s true. And bid on the optimistic side, always, you know, I don’t like thinking about the worst, that much, but it’s very true. I think that’s the wisest way of approaching planning.

Matthew Dols 33:23
I planned a festival one time and like, we got all the way up until like, the night before the festival, and we realized that nobody had thought about trashcans I mean, just stupid. Like, because we were so obsessed with like, oh, the performance this the lighting that the the the permissions here, the county you whatever, blah, blah, and we forgot about trash cans. Yeah,

Fatoş Üstek 33:49
yeah. But yeah, on the other side, you know, like, for instance, I mean, like, I’m a much more at ease with it, but especially in the beginning. You know, curating in the UK was very much defined by health and safety regulations. You know, I since I did this commission with Dr. Sue. It’s also like his largest commission in the UK, which is like his childhood home, I want to one replica of traditional Korean house landed on a pedestrian bridge in the middle of the city of London, like next to the train station. I mean, it took us two years to actually make that work happen. We were initially commissioning that work for 2017 art night Festival, which took place in July, we unveiled the work in September 2018. And the reason is not you know, like the production but it was more the kind of like bureaucracy but the permissions but I remember we were working also with experts and that’s that’s very important. You know, like an expert on front of files an expert on like security, or you know, trash Cannes wouldn’t have been forgotten, I’m sure, because you need those people, but also at the same time, sometimes the challenge that they put forward does feel slightly out of context. But you still need to comply to them. So one of the things we’re told us was that, you know, like, if we will build this house, what if a homeless person moves in. And so we had to kind of close the house, but then it was a fire escape, so you couldn’t really close the house, then we had to make it bomb proof, so that if someone puts a bomb in there, it doesn’t explode. And or we actually had to close it to any other pedestrian access. Because if somebody goes up that a giant stone in their hand and throws it onto the cars, that is our responsibility.

Matthew Dols 35:50
Yeah, liability is a huge issue. Like, I mean, I had a conversation with a sculptor who does x, outdoor sculptures, and he’s they like, he carries a huge insurance policy on all of his sculptures, because, you know, it’s just if somebody just for some reason starts to climb on it, and fall, so it’s not even like it breaks and it falls. But if some dumb person just climbs on it, they fall, they get hurt, they could sue you. And it’s just ridiculous the litigious society that we live in, but also the ridiculous the stupid people that do dumb things like that.

Fatoş Üstek 36:22
No, that is true. That is true. But sometimes, like, Where is the balance, you know, like, also like, about that’s also like, the culture of relating to art. You know, for instance, we were also when I was in Liverpool, we were really trying to understand how to get a permission for a bronze sculpture that will be erected. If how do we communicate the fact that people shouldn’t run to it and, and hurt themselves?

Matthew Dols 36:48
I’m not sure why people would think they should run into a bronze sculpture. But you know, that, you know, sure. I mean, I, as a kid, I used to climb on sculptures, and I would get hurt. And my parents didn’t Sue anybody over it, it was my own damn fault. I climbed on the thing. Like, if Anyways, I’m just not keen on the fact that like, artists end up having to be responsible to pay for and whatever, like coordinate insurance because of stupid people. But that’s just a problem I have.

Fatoş Üstek 37:20
Yeah, I think it’s about like, how can we really change that and the society that it is really, like, you wouldn’t run to a tree and hurt yourself? And then how can I say, because it’s all about habits? No, it’s about habits. And it’s about also like that social imaginary what you feel entitled to do and what you feel that it’s not, you know, like right to do? How can we really communicate that about public art, because that’s going to be you know, especially in the near future, the most important art form happening in our cities,

Matthew Dols 37:54
I do not feel entitled to run and smash myself up against a bronze sculpture. Maybe it’s just me the way I was raised, I don’t know. But like, I don’t feel any entitlement to need to do that.

Fatoş Üstek 38:07
Yeah, but I think it’s great not to also be able to justify it as well that people wouldn’t feel entitled to do that, too. I really respect the fact that you don’t it’s

Matthew Dols 38:16
great. I’m I’m a big fan of touching are like, going into art museums is very painful, because I always want to touch it. And from a young age, my parents always told me when I go into like galleries or museums that I put my hands in my pocket, so that I don’t accidentally touch a thing, because I have a habit of touching things. I like the tactile feel of stuff.

Fatoş Üstek 38:40
I have a friend, they have a three year old. So they said that artworks are hot. So he runs to them. And then he stops because it’s hot. I mean, like I was like okay, let’s see what happens when he grows up. If he was really like you or hate you for saying that.

Matthew Dols 38:56
Boy, I tell you the stuff we scar our kids with by telling them things like that, you know, like, boy that yeah, that kid’s gonna have a problem later in life. I think like they’re gonna think that artwork is dangerous in some way. That’s not not healthy. You mentioned something about like, sir, the idea of like, concepts and techniques and things like this, like, it made me think about my own work. Like oftentimes in my own work, I will have two sets of work that I’ll be working on simultaneously one that’s very, very technique, heavy material, aesthetics kind of stuff. And then one that is very emotional and expressive and sort of a emotional expressive. I don’t know how else to put it. So the the question I have for you is is like when you’re at curator and you’re looking at work, are you sort of more engaged with really great ideas that might not be fulfilled technically with some great skill? Are you looking for incredible Craftsman and skilled creators that maybe their ideas could use a little bit more work?

Fatoş Üstek 40:04
It’s a very interesting question, actually. Because for me, I think like the craftsmanship and ingenuity is sometimes manifested in the technique and sometimes manifested in the idea and the concept of the work. So, I initially, I’m interested in the artwork and its strength. And, you know, like, it’s maybe important to define what that strength is, but it’s about that the work itself can stand on itself, it doesn’t need an additional contextual explanation. Like if we go back to you know, john Birger, you know, like the image and the text added to the image changes the image. So I would be interested in looking at the image. And then of course, I would like to read the text, because then it would add a different reading to the whole experience, because attend text and image provide the experience together. Yes,

Matthew Dols 41:02
not always, I have I do portfolio reviews. And there are many times where I have seen some what I would think is very strong work where I’m like, this is really beautiful. And then I read the text and the text is about something completely different. Or it’s just a bunch of gobbledygook or it’s, you know, fruity and Latin phrases or other kind of crap that makes it sound more pompous and arrogant than it was when it was really beautiful and visceral and emotive when I was like, engaging with the work. And then the text, whether it be a title or an artist statement, if done wrong, or poorly can ruin an appreciation for a piece of art. Of course, on the opposite side, it can elevate and make it even better. But that’s a really tough balance that these days, we as artists, we not only have to be able to produce beautiful things, whatever performances, objects, it doesn’t matter, and title them in some eloquent manner that enhances the appreciation and write an artist statement that then brings even more to it, which we’re not writers generally like, that’s why we’re artists. So like, what do we do with that?

Fatoş Üstek 42:13
No, absolutely, absolutely. And the thing is, maybe that is also like an emphasis that have been brought to artists a lot recently is that everybody is expected to talk about their artwork, and the same strength in a manner in which they work is, but it doesn’t have to be the case here. There are some very eloquent authors that can not only talk about their practices, but other practices in very beautiful and very kind of expensive manner, expensive ways. But there are artists that actually, you know, they also accept themselves that they would rather not talk about their artwork, you know, like our sometimes it has been a political position, like standing brown case, or it is also like priceless to say God doesn’t do interviews or show himself because he wants to work to kind of like talk about itself, etc. I totally agree with you, you know, like, it’s really about also a way of communicating and, you know, again, going back to trends and fashions. I don’t know if that fashion will prevail, but there has been a really kind of like condense time, I would almost like market between 90s. And I mean, I could still kind of like ripping off but like 90s and 2000 10s, where we wanted to complicate everything. And I think also it’s kind of like coincides with the internationalism of the art world, you know, like introduction of biennials and festivals where there was a transnational approach into curating into artworks into exhibition making, that also I think, got slightly cough lected with like, heavy terminology that needs to be used. I mean, or there are some catalogue essays that you even contrary, because you need an additional like annotation of what the writer is trying to say in the text. I think we are kind of slightly trying to come out of it, because we have understood that that is very self reflective way of talking among each other. But also at the same time, it kind of creates borders and boundaries of access. And it doesn’t I’m not saying like accessibility to masses, you know, we still I think have to acknowledge the fact that the art audience is still a very small part of the whole world. It’s not football, and yeah,

Matthew Dols 44:35
okay, well, I totally am going to disagree with that, because I don’t care about football. So like, I don’t think football is all that great. But yeah, the I mean, the art world in and of itself is a niche thing, whatever, you know, within the the industry within the world, but then we get that but you know, okay, so like, what are you going to do with it? Like, I’m, like, for instance here, you know, I’ll make this sort of turn this on myself. I sent you Some of my work and I did I include that that statement that was written about the work too. I know only images. Okay, there, I tried to write a statement about my work now see, the hard part is this, like, I’m still in the middle of creating this work. So I don’t have the time and the distance to be able to reflect back on it in order to be able to eloquently go, oh, that time period in my life was about this and that, and, you know, whatever. I had an outside curator come in, he came in independent curator, he came in and look, and he wrote this beautiful thing about it that like I could never have written. And so the question is, like, is that legitimate? Like, couldn’t Can I use what he wrote as my artist statement, because I could never write what he was really, really quite lovely. And he saw things in the work that, like, I hadn’t connected the dots yet, and things like this, because again, like, I didn’t have the time and distance. So my question sort of is, this is like, do artists have to be the ones that do things like titles, artist statements, etc? Or is it legitimate to have curators or even gallerists? or whoever, you know, some sort of your outside person who’s not the practitioner, create the text for the artist?

Fatoş Üstek 46:14
I think, you know, it’s really the question of agency here. I would say, you could definitely use doc texts, that curator has written for you as part of your artist statement. But I would also, you know, make sure that to credit that person. But titles are different, because titles are very closely related to the artwork. It’s almost like the, how can I say the cover of a book that I think would i would really question the agency, and also passing that agency, what if you have chosen to find a title with someone else, and a couple of years later, you actually have a different feeling about the work. So I think it’s about like your relationship, but the work as well like how close you want to be and how open and interpretable you would like the work to be.

Matthew Dols 47:05
I’m horrible with titling work. Like I either I come up with some incredibly pompous like Latin phrase or some bullshit like that, or some incredibly esoteric thing. Like, I once opened up a nonprofit organization that I called tabula rasa. Like, it’s a great name for people who understand what tabula rasa means. But the majority of society doesn’t know what that means. So I had to spend my 10 years, what would I had to spend the next 10 years explaining what tabula rasa meant? Instead of just like just saying, blank slate would have been much easier. So you do coming up with titles like for God’s sakes, even the title of this podcast, the wise for that tells nothing about what the subject of this podcast is, like. So the wise fool. So what are you talking about on the podcast? no fucking idea. But it’s wise. And it’s foolish. That’s what I know. Like, that’s it. So like, I’m so bad with titles. So like, how important for you as a curator? Are those titles? And how can we do them? Well,

Fatoş Üstek 48:05
I think it’s really, again, according to the artist, you know, for instance, if we look at Yes, because if you look at Uber, what does Uber tell you? Uber tell you anything that is a taxi service that you can book on an app, you know, like, your smartphone,

Matthew Dols 48:22
but he Bay and Amazon? I mean, those are brands, that’s total, that’s marketing and all that, that I mean, is that what the way we should be looking at our work? Should I be typing my artwork like that?

Fatoş Üstek 48:32
No, not at all. The reason I gave that example is the fact that if you are drawn to titling your works from Latin phrases, or from you know, like that it has a game of its own right, or, you know, like Marcel Breuer towers, titled all his works as figs, you know, fig one fig, two fig. 12. It is, it’s part of the artistic language. So I think I would not censor my language, neither commodify it into a certain way of accessibility that I think, is agreeable at a given time. It has to be I mean, like, maybe, you know, like, there might be people that are, you don’t maybe won’t agree to this, but I would really find the titling process, a very intrinsic and intimate process with my artwork, I wouldn’t want someone else to change the title of my publication or of my essay, because that is still how I have thought about it and how I have framed it. But it’s also of course about like if you’re saying here, but I want to be aware about the fashions around me and how the art is being consumed and I want to be really a lot in parallel with those like manners of consumption, then that is a choice but for me, you know, like text or the artwork has a different platform. And like for instance, I think you know, Massimiliano gioni Venice was so Strong in many ways, but also the fact that he worked with the cabinet and the writers of cabinet magazine. And each title. And the exhibition was written by an art writer that created a beautiful additional layer and linguistic layer. And they exhibition. And also there are ways that are possible. And they were not direct, they were not straightforward. You know, like it is what it says on the tin, they’ve learned to abstract that you would actually start thinking about clouds instead of the sculpture in front of you. But they were really adding another layer.

Matthew Dols 50:38
Okay, wait, you brought up abstraction. As I said, I do. I do online portfolio reviews for lens culture, photography website. And they’re anonymous, which is really great, because it allows me to basically be a little bit more blunt, without any feeling that somebody is going to hate me for it. Because they don’t know it’s me. So I have this position. Because I see a lot of abstract work. A lot of people these days think they’re creative, because they make abstract work, I have this position that the more abstract the work is the stronger slash more coherent side, your whatever eloquent, the statement needs to be like it, there’s a, there’s a sort of a line, like if, if you make very literal work, like the statement could be a little let you know, it’s not quite as important, because it’s very obvious what the image what the work is, because you can see it, the more abstract the work gets, I feel like there needs to be a more cohesive and eloquent statement, title, whatever kind of text to go along with it, you know, like, I go back to, like, Rothko, and Peter mondriaan. And that kind of stuff, where they made these amazing texts to explain these very abstracted things. And therefore, now you go, Okay, I get it, you know, because there’s that great balance of the extent to the abstraction and the extent to the concept behind it, married beautifully. And I feel like a lot of abstract artists these days are like people that are working in abstraction, feel like they just, they can just get away with going, Oh, it’s abstract, it doesn’t have to have a meaning I don’t need to write all this text about it man like, and I believe it’s actually the opposite of that. I think the more abstract it becomes, the more eloquent and cohesive and coherent and cohesive the the text needs to be in order to engage the viewer,

Fatoş Üstek 52:36
I will actually retract, and I would go back to the work, you know, for instance, it makes me hearing you makes me think of five humbly, an incredible painter, thinker. But, I mean, just seeing his works are so inspiring. And I mean, the impact they have on me is like very uplifting, and it really engaged in engages me and it almost like creates a meditative relationship. Same thing with I don’t know, I’m thinking of, let’s say, more classical example, like Brooklyn’s paintings, you know, like from 17th century, they are very figurative, but also at the same time where we abstract because it depicts the for mean, it depicts the, I don’t know, the oil of sirens. And

Matthew Dols 53:26
just, just to be clear, wait, wait, hold on one second. But just to be clear, I can be totally wrong, and you’re welcome to tell me I’m wrong.

Fatoş Üstek 53:35
Yeah, so I’m just trying to do that. Now, because I really think I think the work is really important, really, it’s the text does almost like weigh as significant as the work because you really need to unpack that specific cultural context in which the work was produced. Right, as abstracted as, as as straightforward figurative, direct it is. So it’s, I think it’s about I mean, maybe you also maybe, then you can get me as well. But I am very much interested in the encounter between bodies, and the body of the artwork and the body of the audience and the body of the building architecture, exhibition space, the built environment. And I’m very much interested in the fact that there’s something else happening, but when that encounter on an everyday encounter of waiting at a bus stop or getting on a bus or you know, so in that sense, I’m very much interested in, you know, like that, you know, yes, of course, we can go back to the terminology of liminal space, but that the space in between where magic happens, you know, like magic as in something out of the ordinary happens. Or you come across with a perspective that adds on to your way of seeing the world, or you come across with a perspective that creates tension friction with the way you have been. But you know, you no longer will be after that experience. And I do really believe in that effect, or the impact of things that inspire us, we can have a very inspiring conversation with a friend and or a colleague that can also, you know, changes the way we are. But it can also happen while you’re reading a book or while you are at an exhibition or engaging with an artwork. And that engagement is the thing. And afterwards, that’s like going back to the artwork and the text afterwards, you can read about the work, or you can read the explanation or the captions. And that perhaps wants you to even go deeper, you know, like, find different routes, different engagements, like in also our previous conversation, we did talk about, you know, like how things trigger other things, like you listen to a song, and then and then and then you find out that it was actually a poem, and then you kind of look at the point and afterwards you discover a literature movement. And then afterwards you discover a painter that was working with that literature movement, and that painters connection with another painter and another sculptor, and, and it can become almost like kind of a, you know, a horizontal mapping kind of a rhizomatic out layout of inspirational roots where there is no given. And there could be multiple ways, you know, like my, my diagram of, you know, like, what I’ve been inspired by over the last, you know, five days, 10 years, might be so different than yours. But we might have intersection points, you know, we might have read the same things or looked at the same artwork, and it’s at the same time, or at different times in space, where we will be informing it to our next encounter in a way

Matthew Dols 57:03
given that we’re in a pandemic, and there’s, of course, the virtual meetings, and the zooms, and social media, and yada, yada, yada, we all have to do much like well, you and I are doing right now with this virtual podcast. How do you find new artists these days?

Fatoş Üstek 57:18
That’s a great question. I think, especially these days, I mean, I from the beginning of this month, I made a new year’s resolution, it was actually inspired by a piece in the garden that they suggested cultural input per day. And I was like, really interested in that idea. I was like, Okay, I’ll do that obstruction to myself, I’d really like you know, like putting these kind of almost, let’s say frames, introducing frames into my work. So this month, and literally, every day trying to read a book, sometimes I managed to read a book every day, sometimes there’s, you know, like, I haven’t managed to do that. And then, or listen to a song or our be inspired by a poem. Or it could be also a podcast as well. And it’s been very interesting, exactly why school, it’s been very interesting to intentionally set that openness. So I now have a list of like, artists that I want to check I want to know more of, or I also have curators that I want to kind of familiarize myself with their practices, you know, as well as like publications. So at the moment, it’s more about like reading, but also at the same time looking at what is happening. Meanwhile, I’m also doing some interviews, some virtual studio visits. So it’s a mix of everything,

Matthew Dols 58:46
you just hit on the topic that are my last two questions. So virtual studio visits, Do you like them? do they work? How do they not work? Is there some way they if they don’t work? Is there some way that you think that can be done better? Like what’s your input on virtual studio, because I’ve never done them, but I be like, they’re probably not as good as I realize.

Fatoş Üstek 59:08
It’s like, you know, one can’t replace the other. Full stop given. I feel like for instance, I’m doing this like series of virtual studio visits for a friend who is going to be curating a show in India for a gallery, not remote gallery, and I’ve done some studio visits to some of the artists, but it was also especially it really depends as well, if it’s an artist that you know, and then you are doing a virtual studio is to catch up as much more productive, I would say because you are familiar with the work or at least you have a first hand experience of the work. But, you know, artists that I don’t know, it’s really about first kind of starting conversation. And the studio is it almost becomes chat, and where you’re trying to have a dialogue of some sort where, of course, the artworks are brought in as reference points. And I think the following is if this, you know, like, if the reference points were videos, and I get the links sent, and then I watched the films, or if it is, you know, like sculptures or other like, you know, like two dimensional three dimensional works, then it’s more looking at their pictures beforehand, and maybe like to kind of like, follow up afterwards. So I don’t really think studio visits are very resourceful, but it’s a great first point of contact. Having said that, I was talking to some collectors, and they had bought artworks through virtual studio visits. But again, they bought artworks from artists that they knew their practices, or they have seen their works in person before. I don’t really know, any curators or any collectors that have, you know, like to based on studio or virtual studio visits, done something except I do remember this Instagram collector who only collected artworks that he saw and found and purchased on Instagram. But yeah, that’s a bit of a stretch.

Matthew Dols 1:01:16
Well, that I mean, that’s the thing is like, because a lot of us artists, like we don’t already have these connections. And so it’s sort of like, with the issue of the need for virtual studio visits these days, like, how do we connect with people who we are not yet ready? Yeah,

Fatoş Üstek 1:01:32
I think definitely. And especially for that, I really do feel for the younger generation of artists coming out, you know, at the moment, there are students, as well as the thing is, and this is not about ageism, it’s really about opportunities and networks. There are people who won’t be even able to, you know, finish their practice based master’s degree in physical form, because they’re impacted by COVID. But the other thing is about, what I was going to say is that, for instance, Brian Gander started this series last year, and it was virtual studio visits, that it was a month that he would invite three or four people that could be art critics, curators, that I was also part of it. So in July, I did studio visits to on a weekly basis, I think, three artists in total, like 1214 artists throughout whole July. And there were artists from Australia, there were artists from you know, I don’t know, Wales. So it was bit sporadic. But it was, again, like students who don’t have that, how can I say possibility of mentorship, even at the start of their career? I do agree everyone does need access. But I think it was also important to give a bit of a support to young students who are very confused right now. Like, didn’t even have a first show. Physically.

Matthew Dols 1:03:09
Yeah, it’s going to affect the arts in a very interesting way. Like there’s going to be a lot of seclusion for a while, like they’re the young people aren’t just able to get very far, easily as they once were. But hopefully that will work itself out in time. Yeah, absolutely. I’m an optimist that way. Okay, now, I have a question. It’s a little caddy, so bear with me. artists. Now, don’t get me wrong. Most of my friends are artists. So I want to sort of start that start with that. However, I’ve run into a lot of people who see CSC me as competition or are catty towards me, like so. Like, specifically, it’s mostly photographers, but I don’t want to get into photographers, but that is there any sort of like cattiness or sort of fighting or rivalry in the curatorial?

Fatoş Üstek 1:04:05
There is, but I don’t, you know, there are like many beautiful phrases about comparison or competition. I don’t believe in the positive support of comparing yourself to others. I would rather be interested in their work and, you know, choose to engage with their work or not, but I wouldn’t compare, let alone compete with any other curators.

Matthew Dols 1:04:35
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I say this because like i when i was in, was I in undergrad, there was a guy, Chris, I can’t remember his last name, then and he and I were constantly competing for to do better. And that competition actually pushed me to do better work. So like, and just the term competing. I don’t mean that in a negative way. Sometimes it sort of pushes you to be like, oh, No, wait, I want to do better than that guy can, like I can do better. And then now because they’ve done stepped up, I need to step up also. So like, Is there a little bit of that sort of even like one upmanship kind of stuff? Like because I’m in the arts world and in the academic world, and of course, academics do that shit all the time. But how about curators? Do they do that kind of stuff?

Fatoş Üstek 1:05:21
The person I would know best is myself and what I put to myself as I want to do better in each and every project, and he in each and every text, I’m very much interested in that kind of like pushing yourself not the for sake of any perfect image. But it’s really about how can you get better each time. And that better meant isn’t about perfectionism, again, or that isn’t about like, the ultimate ideal curator image. But it’s really more about, you know, it’s more about like learning from how you do things and what you do, and then also raising awareness of like, what you could do well, and I’m doing better each time. So I’m very much interested. And that kind of like processional gradual development and evolution, and my approach to curating and my approach to writing. And I think that is really the case for many people. You know, like, for instance, when I look back to my presentations, you know, like, 15 years ago, I wasn’t as confident public speaker as I am now. And I hope that in the future, I will even become more skilled in that same thing that writing, you know, like, yes, I’m still they’re proud of my text that I published when I was 21, in photography, magazine, but at the same time, I do feel my writing has evolved from it. And I think that is what I’m interested in, you know, like, how do you grow yourself? And how do you grow into your true potential?

Matthew Dols 1:06:58
Oh, yeah, I used to be an art critic for newspaper in the US. And to this day, I mean, I did, I stopped doing it maybe 15 years ago. And to this day, there’s this one artist that still is very angry with me. And I keep hearing through like social media and stuff, how angry she still is with me about a review I did of her work, and I’m just like, get over it, it was just one review, move on, you know, take it as something to help you to be better. But like, it’s hard it taking both writing criticism, you know, because also I do portfolio reviews as well like, writing criticism, but also being able to take criticism is a very difficult thing. For a lot of people, myself included. So it’s, it’s a tough part of our industry, you know, because like, a lot of other professionals and other industries, they don’t get criticism, and they don’t need to take criticism, they either do their job, or they don’t they go that’s it lay and they get their paycheck.

Fatoş Üstek 1:07:56
Now, that is true. But I think it’s like the way that criticism is published is very important as well, for instance, I have a very, very close friend, that I have strongly written negatively about her work 11 years ago. But then what happened is, like we evolved into a conversation that then led to a very important and a beautiful friendship. And we also worked together in the past. And that also actually added on our strength of being friends, not today. But I think it’s really about Yes, criticism is important. But it’s about like, what you do with it. You know, it’s also about I do, I’m also very much interested in like thinking about leadership, thinking about ways of being in the world. And there’s a beautiful quote, it says leadership is about the time that you take recovery. And I think it’s about also success, not in the sense of success as one ultimate goal that we will all reach success happens on an everyday basis, there are successes, it’s plural, there is it is not singular. And also at the same time, that recoveries for us as if we give the example of a tennis player, you know, if a tennis player is thinking about the bad back end that they did, they will lose the game, you know, so it’s really about rebound. And it’s really about recovery, to kind of move on, while you know, like reflecting on the backend, and the aftermath. Because that will actually, you know, bring you to a better player position. And the same thing for curating and the same thing for mistakes. It’s like one thing don’t define you, or who you are, isn’t defined by what you do, who you are, is bigger than that. And it’s really again, keeping that big picture in mind.

Matthew Dols 1:09:44
Oh, yeah, when I was a kid, I was a horrible tennis player for exactly the reason you just described. Like, I would constantly be like, God dammit, I shouldn’t have done this. I should have twisted my wrist a little bit more and I would have done that and like fucking like and I would dwell on my previous shot and then I would screw up My neck shot. Like I’m I, I hope I’ve gotten better in my old age at dots dwelling on those those past mistakes. But boy, that was definitely a defining characteristic of my youth for sure.

Fatoş Üstek 1:10:12
I mean, same here, you know, but I suppose like this, perhaps have you learned?

Matthew Dols 1:10:16
Yeah, well, that mean, okay, well, that sort of gets what I’m getting to here is like, when I was young, I was an arrogant little selfish shit. Like, I was the worst. And in many ways, I believe that a lot of that has been to the detriment of my own career. I mean, I made my own bed, and I lied in it, because I, I thought it was the right thing to do. And I have learned since then, that it was the wrong thing to do. And I made a lot of whatever, I’m not going to get into all the stupid mistakes I’ve done. But trust me, I’ve done lots of stupid mistakes, that have damaged my potential career. But so like, the what I’m asking, leading to with you is, is like, how important is like, the personality of the artist. So like, you know, like, I know, some artists that make really amazing work, but they are drug addicts drunks, just fucking annoying, whatever, or, you know, some artists that are really pleasant to work with, but they maybe make mediocre work. So like, is there what’s the more important part is it is it the enjoyment and the appreciation of being able to participate in the creation of their work, you know, as a collaborative process for you, or is it just like, I just think they make great work, even if they’re fucking horrible to work with.

Fatoş Üstek 1:11:30
And I will get back to the art and, and practice, I think, if the practice and the artwork is strong, I would definitely work with the artist. But also at the same time, it’s really important how the artists relate to the work, or what makes them really hard to work with, you know, like, sometimes it’s very important, like, some artists are cold as all they’re very challenging, they’re very hard to work with, because they’re precise. But I also really appreciate that precision, because sometimes, they really, you know, an artist, who knows what it takes to do a very strong and a very good work afford, knows that it needs that precision knows that it needs that layering, you know that it needs that attention to detail, and that, you know, if it’s a performance, or if it’s anything else that needs rehearsal, testing ideas, experimenting, going back and forth. And that is not one thing given. And if people think that is a challenge, I’m happy to take that challenge. So it’s really about like, if the artists relationship with the artwork makes them hard to work with, I’m up for that challenge. But if it is, the kind of like artists approach to being in the world, and for the sake of being less accessible, less communicable and, and if they actually are in it, for their ego, and for the sake of this attestation of the strength and the amazingness of their ego, then I will really pick my choices. I mean, because I have, you know, I have definitely been bitten in the past as well. And it’s not only once you know, like once you do it, and then you move on, I learned my lesson, no, you don’t learn your lesson, you have to kind of keep learning the same lesson to really learn it well. So I’m sure in the future there might be also like other circumstances coming up, don’t say it’s over. But I really do now know what to really value because in a recent project, I did work with an artist, it was very, very hard and very draining. But then I also discovered that the draining was actually a process that the artist was going through in the mode of production. And it was almost like, it was compulsory for the work and the work and the outcome is so incredible, in a way that I still do remember those days, you know, like with a sunken heart, but also at the same time. I’m so proud about the work as well, you know what I mean? So I would, I think still work with the artist again, even though maybe, you know, have different ways and means of introducing clarity,

Matthew Dols 1:14:15
higher and assisting to intermediary before you

Fatoş Üstek 1:14:19
know it’s or is it really about like, you know, knowing what might likely to bark up attention and finding ways or maybe like having tools to contain it better. Because it’s also about like, you know, I’m just gonna stretch it a little bit, but it’s really about, it’s not about like, life isn’t like something that happens to you, or like hardships is not about like the hardship that happened to you, but it’s also about your response to it. Or like if you have a relationship that is not working well. I would really question my role in it as well. Like what is it that in my reaction that actually supports their response being that negative or Or adopt destructive.

Matthew Dols 1:15:01
Okay. Any advice that you would like to give to young budding curators out there?

Fatoş Üstek 1:15:07
Yeah, I definitely feel for them. I think it’s really tough times for everyone. But I think it’s really tough for people who are starting or toward trying to find their feet. And the arts. There are many questions, many queries, we are, you know, like rethinking about musicology, we are rethinking about institutionalism. And we are rethinking about the curatorial Canon and couture practices, how to be who would be, what is it that you really want to do? Or like, what is the threshold for you in your practice? It’s really, you know, I think it’s quite challenging times.

Matthew Dols 1:15:47
I do have a question. Okay. I keep in mind, I’m, uh, you know, I left school 20 some years ago. So like, I’m a little older, and my philosophy on this. Is it your desire, career desire to be working at an institution these days? Or is it your desire to stay independent like, because, you know, traditionally, I felt the curators sort of started off, maybe independent, and they worked for a gallery, and then they sort of made their way up to some institution, and that was sort of the pinnacle of their career. But I feel like that’s not true anymore. I feel like a lot of independent curators love their independence, and that they actually really don’t want to work for institutions. So like, how does your career trajectory? Look in your mind?

Fatoş Üstek 1:16:32
The thing is, my career trajectory has been changing a lot. And I think one thing I am very sure of is that I don’t see independent work, too far off. Institutional work, yes, of course, there might be a permanent position, and there might be no like regular income, etc. I’ve still feel like my work today, it has been very strongly affiliated to institutions as well, like, for instance, speak to, for me was a non institutional institution, it had a vision, it had the kind of like, roof on top, and, you know, like, the team vision to execute its program. One thing that is, I think, very important, and going forward is that I think the institutions are really looking at themselves. Like yesterday, I was at an event, it was all about decolonizing, the museum’s and I think decolonizing, the museums, we also need to kind of like really reflect back on decolonizing, the institution itself, as well, because you can’t decolonize the collections or the kind of the understanding of physiology without also, you know, like addressing the structure in which it operates. For me, it’s really about aspirations. And it’s really about like what you want to do as a curator, I’m very much interested in openness. And in a way, exactly, as you said, also, like serendipity or spontaneity in programming without necessarily, you know, spontaneity, it doesn’t have to be irresponsible, it still can be charged with responsibility and care and and conviction. I think, these days, especially I’m ambree, contemplating on different institutional models that could embrace that mode of functionality that is bit more agile, that is bit more responsive, or can be responsive, but also at the same time, does have a vision in which it generates content. I do really believe in structures where, you know, everyone who works in institution has a sort of agency and can take initiative. In a way I’m not really interested in these top down management, I would like to, you know, like if, you know, if there is an institution I would like to work with, that would definitely have those values and characteristics in itself, or at least open to change. You know, something that we are talking a lot about is that God Change is hard. Nobody wants it, but also the same time from a quantum physics perspective, or even like spiritual perspective changes that is constant. It’s happening all the time. So it’s really about like finding that balance between. And one last thing I want to add is that it’s really about imagination. You know, sometimes, for instance, people think that there are conditions that you’re surrounded by and you live accordingly. It could be financial economy. And sometimes people say you set the conditions you set the bar and then you kind of like aspire to live in those conditions in those circumstances. And I think life is about Once a boat, it’s really always a negotiation. So I would really kind of like think about independency, or something that you have set the bar high up. Whereas if we think institutions are more like the kind of like conditions that are set given, it’s really, how can these two, recalibrate and be in conversation together?

Matthew Dols 1:20:19
Well, everything is a bit of a balance. And of course, that balance is the most difficult thing to find and maintain throughout life.

Fatoş Üstek 1:20:27
Absolutely. It’s really that too, you know, it’s about like, it’s not once alignment forever aligned, it’s very constantly being aware of what are we doing? How are we doing, and also being able to criticize ourselves that I can really proudly say what was happening with fig too, because the program wasn’t given it was really on the go, you know, sometimes, an artist was invited 10 days before their show, and sometimes, you know, six months before their show, and there was a thematic thread or multiple threads that were running through. But we would always look back and say, Okay, what have we done? Well, on what we haven’t done, it wasn’t like a quarterly assessments, it was rather, you know, sporadic assessments if like, okay, you know, we’re in week 12, what is it that we are really proud of, and I think that is what was needed in institutions. And the other thing that’s been recently discussed a lot is that, you know, like, how can we do less? Well, you know, something we also mentioned before, you know, like that I had that imagination, or like the speculative dream of slow art movement. I feel like there’s some, there’s some, you know, there’s food to that thought, or, like, that idea has feet, and the sense that it’s not about like, let’s do lazy art, but it’s really more about like, how can we expand the diegetic space of round exhibitions around artwork, so that they also, you know, like, are still part of conversations, you know, today, when we look at, you know, like, multiple literature or reading, there are certain seminal exhibitions that are, you know, reference over and over again. So, I’m interested in, you know, like, can we actually do each and every work that could be a point of reference, not for the future generations only, but also for today, you know,

Matthew Dols 1:22:14
yeah, I, it’s funny, I was gonna say that I think that topics come up before might have been in our conversation before. But like, I feel like, it’s harder to do those seminal exhibitions, simply because of the sheer volume of exhibitions that are, are currently not only going on, but also known about, you know, because like, back in the day, like in America, we had, like a family of man exhibition, that photography with Alfred Stieglitz. And that was a seminal thing for photography at the time. These days, it would be very difficult between the sheer volume of exhibitions all going on all over the world, and the interconnectedness through social media, and all the other kinds of things like this, to have a, a, something rise to the top as being like a seminal something like, that’s really, I feel like it’s much more difficult these days, because of the changes in the world. Really,

Fatoş Üstek 1:23:10
no, that’s true. That’s definitely a good point. But also at the same time, for instance, you know, like, based on my recent reading, I’ve, I’m coming across with a lot of references to exhibitions that were made in 2014, either in North America or in Asia. And I feel like 2014 was an interesting year, where many good exhibitions were happening in Paris and New York, and also a very good year for grapes for wine, like I highly recommend, you know, like 2014 editions of wine, I think it was also the weather was perfect, you know, all this, like, atmospheric conditions for something good to happen, very in place, but I do think, you know, it’s maybe what happens is that because of that bombardment of content and images, we are not necessarily able to introduce healthy distance or proximity to those exhibitions. And the reason that I can look back and see okay, in 2014, or there was that exhibition or, you know, like this biennial was really important is because there is that distance now almost like, you know, six years and, and a little bit,

Matthew Dols 1:24:22
time and distance. They’re always really great equalizers that

Fatoş Üstek 1:24:25
maybe we could perhaps, like, embed that into our everyday practice where, you know, it’s not only that we get carried away but all that bombardment of images and content, but maybe we be kind of tried to create that space in our everyday today so that we can also start finding out what is really weighing but more than others, what is like more of a fast, flowing pace, and what is there to actually kind of still resonate ideas or engagement.

Matthew Dols 1:24:59
Oh yeah, well I mean, I feel the pressure as a practicing artist to be producing more work faster now than I ever have in my career, because of social media and all the other things because like, if I’m not posting some new works on my Instagram within every week or so that I’m not posting enough, you know, so like, I’ve gotten to the point where I just put up, hey, this is what I did in the studio today, like and that’s, that’s the best I could do. Because like, some of my pieces are taking me three and four months to create. So like, I can’t be done a new piece every week. And that, I feel like there’s a bit of an unrealistic expectations being set up for artists these days, via social media to be able to produce very quickly. Yeah,

Fatoş Üstek 1:25:45
yeah, no, I really agree with you. And it’s really about like, how do you negotiate that demand with also your intrinsic artistic processes, you know, like, some artists, like it takes three, four years for them to complete a painting. I mean, like, look at Leonardo da Vinci, you know, throughout his lifetime, he only made 12 artworks?

Matthew Dols 1:26:07
Well, that we know of

Fatoş Üstek 1:26:09
that we all know. Exactly. So it’s really about also honoring your processes and being truthful to that. And if you still want to be part of the conversation, just you know, having images as part of the processes of your work is one way of choosing to be part of it. But I don’t, I don’t really think you know, like artistic processes and kind of like duration it it requires can be formatted according to the pace that is, you know, the way we communicate today, the pace of our communication,

Matthew Dols 1:26:45
yes, I know, I need to relax, be less anxious about do it my own way. And people will either like it, or they don’t

Fatoş Üstek 1:26:54
know that’s true. I mean, like, there’s also another thing, of course, like, once you are in, you know, like, once you’re visible, etc, you’re part of it. But once you slow down or you know, like have moments of silence or periods of silence, that is true, people do move on as well. So it’s really about like, how do you relate to that, to? How do you relate to I

Matthew Dols 1:27:16
relate poorly to it is when I’m horrible at social media, like I just like, I’m looking forward to hiring somebody to do my social media stuff for me, because I’m just absolutely atrocious at it. I think I’m too old. But I also think I’m a little too private, which is horribly ironic. I know, with all the shit I share on the podcast, but I’m very private, about a lot of things. And like, my art practice is one of them. Like, I want, hey, that’s funny, I was brought up in the era where it’s like you put up you put your best work out in the world. And that’s it and you do judged off of just your pre your finished project, not your process. Because part of me, I hate showing people my process via social media in particular, because until it’s completed, and I’ve said, Okay, that’s done, I could still fuck it up. And I do you know, and because we’ve had this conversation about my masterful works, so I do fuck up a lot of works and like, and I will get like, 99.9% of the way there and like on the last stroke of whatever I do, I fuck it all up. But yet, I’ve been showing it to everybody in process. And I’m like, nope, that would failed. Sorry.

Fatoş Üstek 1:28:31
It’s a relative thing. But you might think that you fucked up, but maybe it might actually be appealing to someone, you know what I mean? is like,

Matthew Dols 1:28:39
don’t start me down that path. I’m so tired in my career. Here we go. I’ll give you like, my little tirade on on the art world, my career bullshit. Okay. Every time I have an exhibition, I will put together the pieces that I think are the absolute magnificent pieces. And I’ll put them as primary places in the exhibition. And they’re really great. And then endlessly, I always have like a little empty wall that I didn’t think of or an extra space. And I put up some other piece that I’m just like, I got to fill up this wall, I’ll throw this other piece in. That’s the piece that everybody fucking loves. And nobody loves the ones that I think are the best pieces and putting these prominent places. Everybody loves the ones that I literally throw in at the last minute. And nobody loves the ones that I love

Fatoş Üstek 1:29:19
that nobody is temporary. Nobody in the sense that maybe in a year time or in five years time or 10 years time, that could be the word that actually resonates with people. So you know, everything has its different time.

Matthew Dols 1:29:32
Oh, yeah, no, my wife, she’s not very into art. And and she, I put up a piece in our home and I was just like, I love this piece. And she’s like, I hate it. And now three years later, she she we’re getting ready to move to a new apartment and she was like, She’s like, okay, we have to have that piece in the apartment. I love that piece.

Fatoş Üstek 1:29:50
I think you conditioned her. She’s attuned to liking that piece. It’s you know, like whatever becomes part of your pool of perception becomes you know, whatever becomes familiare is lovely.

Matthew Dols 1:30:02
No, no, there are other ones that are in our apartment that she hates still to this day, but like, but that one she fell in love with. That’s great. Yeah. So anyways, all right. Well, thank you very much for your time. No, thank you. This was really great. Thank you very much for your time. And for your attention, and great questions. You know, I’m just listening to you and asking things off of what you say. No, that was very lovely. Thank you very much. Thank you.