Transcript for Episode 142 – Deputy Director of Tashkeel, Lisa Ball-Lechgar (Dubai, UAE)

Recorded January 19, 2021
Published on January 28, 2021

Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/deputy-director-of-tashkeel-lisa-ball-lechgar-dubia-uae/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 0:13
me? Ah, that is the first question. My name is Lisa ball. Let’s go.

Matthew Dols 0:19
I heard a British accent but I said where you’re from?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 0:24
Yeah, I’m originally from the UK. Yeah, I grew up in London, and also in Scotland.

Matthew Dols 0:30
Of course you’re at now at Tash keel in Dubai. It is in Dubai, right? Yes, that’s right. Because it’s sort of on that border of Dubai Sharjah, I was never quite sure where it was. So, Dubai. Now how long have you been in the United Arab Emirates?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 0:46
I first moved in 2005, to the UAE from Beirut, where I was based at the time. And then I had a little sojourn for two years, I’ve been praying and then I moved back to the UAE in 2009. And I’ve been here ever since.

Matthew Dols 1:02
Wow. Okay. Well, I guess the first question would be what drew you from the UK and Scotland to the Middle East in the first place.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 1:09
I got married when I was 19 years old. I was a child actress, very precocious. And I then, you know, took my acting career foot foot forward. And in about 1991 92, I was invited to perform at an international festival of theatre in Casablanca in Morocco. And there I met them fell in love with the interpreter. I ended up going back to that festival about three or four times, performing each year. And by the end of the I think second or third production I took over there. I was married. And basically I spent the rest of my university life living in Casablanca and commuting to Glasgow for lectures. And that really started my first interest in in the Middle East. I’ve never been to the Middle East, North Africa before. I had no intention before of learning about the culture. You know, I was a British girl, and I taken a holiday in Jersey, and that’s as far as I traveled. But the more I spent time in Morocco, the more beautiful beautiful people I met, the more I learned about that particular culture, the more interested I became and by the time I left after five years, I was hooked.

Matthew Dols 2:25
You’re the currently the Deputy Director at Tesh keel what what give me a definition of Deputy Director,

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 2:33
Deputy Director obviously the job description takes all types of manifestations, depending where you are in the world. I am the full time on call men member of senior management I report to the founder and director of Tesco, Her Highness Sheikh Maktoum, Rashid Al Maktoum. And I look after the team on a daily basis. And I make sure that all our projects and programs are delivered on time and to the maximum effect. We hope

Matthew Dols 3:01
you I mean, you’ve been there for a while because I also saw some videos where you worked at I believe add math as well in Abu Dhabi.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 3:08
Yes, I spent eight or nine wonderful years at the Abu Dhabi Music and Art Foundation, working alongside Her Excellency who the alchemy Qatar new the founder, helping her run all the projects and programs were the foundation, including the monumental annual Abu Dhabi festival, the memories of which I will treasure forever, really,

Matthew Dols 3:28
I remember even when I was there now. So first of all for the listeners, but a lot of them around the world may not be aware of exactly what Tash keel is and what it offers and all that. So how about a little background on the nature of Tesco itself?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 3:44
Basically, the contemporary art scene of the United Arab Emirates sorted out starts around the year 2000 2005 I’d say in 2008. Her Highness Scheffler Tifa, established Castiel straight out of university she just graduated with a BA in Fine Arts from Rice University where you taught and she saw a real need in the emerging contemporary art scene. There was a accruing critical mass of galleries. But there was no where were professional artists and designers who are living and working in the UAE could actually make their work and be supported as they develop their careers. You know, just because you see leave University with a piece of paper that says you’re an artist. That doesn’t actually mean that you can even do anything or you don’t need further education, and further training. So she created Nashville in a beautiful old building in nettle shiver. It used to be the local supermarket in fact, and it was there that she developed her skill as an art and design center that nurtures the practice of UAE based artists and designers. In doing so helps them develop their skills. Nurture To the creative and cultural industries of the UAE, and embed creativity in the wider fabric of society.

Matthew Dols 5:07
That is a huge scope. that’s a that’s a very lofty goal for sure.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 5:13
Yeah. Yeah. We try and push the payment forward every year. The wonderful thing is, after 13 years, the the number and diversity of Art and Design practitioners in the UAE has has multiplied beyond all imagination. You know, and we’re only talking, you know, just over one decade,

Matthew Dols 5:31
when I first moved to the UAE in 2005. For for a woman to stand up and say, in Arabic, Anna semana I am an artist was looked down upon it was Oh, no, you don’t want to be saying that in public. today. Every single artist and designer, whatever nationality, whatever culture, particularly in Arabic, they are standing up and saying loud and proud. We are artists, we are designers, and we are here in the UAE. One thing that I ran into a lot when I was there was that, like, this is gonna sound a little bit negative. But let me get through it, that a lot of the Emirati artists, we can be very big fish in those sort of what I would call like their small pond of the UAE. So like, what is Tokyo doing to try and get those artists onto the more of the world stage versus just in the UAE,

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 6:24
challenging them, challenging them every step of the way? I think embedding that mindset that you can always improve, there is always your curiosity should be driving you forward, you should never be apathetic and settle for what you are practicing at the moment. That’s the gauntlet we lay down to every practitioner that walks through our doors. First of all, you have to join as a member of hashkee. There’s an interview process. And that’s where we fall short of assess your curiosity, your hunger, if you are very happy in being the best. And your little illustrations are selling like hotcakes and Instagram, and you don’t have anything else in the world to learn. Goodbye, good luck, goodbye. If you walk around our studios and our facilities, and you get excited we see the fire in your eyes when you see the printmaking vacuum bed, or the enamel oven, or the laser cutter. That’s the type of person we want to attach to somebody who will, you know, maximize the facilities that we’ve got somebody we will see on a regular basis. And somebody who will become part of our creative community Castiel doesn’t have any doors, all our studios are open, you walk through them to get to another one. So everybody who uses our facilities has to be social animals. And out of that comes a lot of collaboration between our members. Not just that, but great dialogue and discourse and conversations, of course. So you’ve got to be a particular kind of character to join touch feel.

Matthew Dols 8:08
That’s probably why I never joined quite honestly, I

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 8:12
know. We know how hard you professors work.

Matthew Dols 8:19
Yeah, well, that’s a whole different story, podcast. But the The one thing I do remember about Tesco was they had amazing facilities, like you all had the you know, huge studios, great equipment, all this kind of stuff like that was the one thing that they constantly kept coming up in conversation was like, Oh, you need to do something with this medium. Go to Tesco. You know, because you will offer to the general public, of course, after your vetting process, the ability to use some really amazing resources.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 8:49
Yeah, so no, definitely, you know, we’ve got the vacuum prepared exposure units, we’ve got one of the very few public analog dark rooms left in the UAE, we’ve got a fantastic photography studio, the Ferrari of digital printing presses, and on and on and on, you know, we have a team on hand, and technicians to assist and advise but you know, once you know a machine, we let you fly with it. And we want to see what you come up with. You know, it’s it’s weird and wonderful and wacky. That’s great. If it’s a failure, that’s also fantastic. That’s one of the big issues going back to, you know, the MRT question, that there is a pressure on some artists and designers depending on their background, whatever they have to create has to be perfect. And we are never to know, it doesn’t have to be perfect. In fact, the product, the product is the last thing you should be thinking about. It is the process that you need to get your hands into and play around. If you fail. That’s fantastic. You’re going to learn from something. And that’s the kind of philosophy that we try and embed in some of the new sort of graduates that are coming out the Emirati universities particularly.

Matthew Dols 9:57
Yeah, I mean, I’m a huge fan like I’m very much process based artists myself, I’m also I do my own work as well. And like, you know, not everything. I’m even scared about putting things like on social media, because I’m like, okay, but that I’m still in the process of that it might fail. And I don’t want you to know about my failures, you know, but of course, people want to know about people’s failures these days with social media and all that. So got to do it. But yeah, but failures. 100% part of the process. Agreed. It seemed to me when I was doing some research on you and listening to you, you have a lot of knowledge about like, sort of how to expand the cultural opportunities, funding, and, you know, raising awareness, this kind of stuff, is that correct?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 10:47
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, you know, information is power. And artists and designers spend so much time focusing on their own research, focusing on the, you know, exploring their own practice, they need as much support and guidance as they can to bring things to them that might be of benefit. So, you know, at cash scale, we provide them with a weekly dose of information, like a one stop shop, of what’s going on, or what to apply for, what opportunities are out there, or what they should be reading. And then we, our team is on hand to help them on a both practical level and sort of critical level, to further their practice. If they don’t want our assistance, that’s fine. They can unsubscribe from our E shots, and they can, they can say thank you very much. We’re okay to our team. But you know, to surround them with that support structure is really important. And, you know, day all night, we’re open from 10 o’clock in the morning to 10 o’clock at night, day or night, we will have somebody on hand that can help someone out.

Matthew Dols 11:55
All right, so what what, I guess the question would be Fortescue, like, does it have a like an end goal or like what it what is it it’s aspiring to create or build and in the, in the grand scheme of things like talking decades, and you know, longevity kind of legacy ideas,

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 12:15
as the population of the UAE grows and diversifies and I love this country grows, you will have more and more people born in this country. Now you’re seeing the second or third generations coming through of people of different nationalities who have been born and raised in the UAE, that also brings its own challenges, for example, with regards to cultural identity, but more and more the word expatriate is disappearing from the lexicon here in the UAE, you’re becoming resident. You’re settling, you know, okay, you may not be getting the passport yet, but you’re getting longer and longer visas to stay, you can start to call this country home. Now, there’s 10 year visas that you can get. Really, yeah, so

Matthew Dols 13:06
So four years was what they gave last time I was there.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 13:09
There’s a change in terminology, there’s a change in attitude here, in terms of knowing that people are going to be born here, they gonna be raised here, they’re going to enter the sort of the Korea market here. And they may well still stay here for another 4050 years. You know, my contemporary, I have many friends who are contemporaries of mine in the arts. And they have been born and raised here in the UAE their families came in the 1970s. So with that social change comes a need to support not only the Emirati contemporary art practice, but also the wider UAE based art practice, basic art and design, touch scale is looking at nurturing discourse, being able to export our practitioners and what they produce to the world. And particularly, I mean, at the moment, we’re working on a design project, particularly in the realms of design, nurturing the UAE design language in all its diversity and range, but really nurture a language in a personality that says right this is the UAE artsy,

Matthew Dols 14:27
what about Okay, one thing that I have because I was inside University, which is an all well, it was primarily female students. We had a male students but not in the college I taught in in the arts college it was it was female only, how is the the gender breakdown of teskey? Or is it sort of like prom prominently male or female? What’s the breakdown? And also within that, I’ll go with that. So the demographics across the board, how about age ranges as well,

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 14:56
in terms of ages, I think, from I mean, we do Have a we do provide youth programs, but from our members, it’s from about 25 upwards. I think 25 to about 5055 is probably the age range in terms of nationalities. We’re like the United Nations. But we have quite a strong representation, I would say between 30 and 40% of Emirati practitioners. And in terms of male and female, yes, it is predominantly female. But we’ve got some wonderful gentlemen as well with very loud voices. God bless. Yeah, it’s this country was established in 1971. This year, we celebrate the 50th anniversary of the UAE, this country has pressed the fast forward button on everything. But on some things, in my humble opinion, you can’t push the fast forward button on social attitudes on artistic practice. Those are innately organic. You know, as I said earlier, 15 years ago, artistic expression was almost a taboo subject. Now look at it. So I think in in another 15 years, wow, we’re going to see the democratic change again, you might, you know, you might come back to me, and I’ve got a 2031 and say, Wow, me. So there’s more men than women in the art design sector of the UAE, you know, you just cannot tell. But I think that there is a greater recognition that art and design profession, in all its diversity is growing and becoming a viable career for some families. For some families, not everybody.

Matthew Dols 16:41
Yeah, I know, I had a number of students whose family, the families wouldn’t allow them to actually go into the profession, they were fine with them getting the education, but not they would not let me let them go into the profession. One of and one of the things that I kept running into, which I said to the students a lot was like, when I put out my artwork into the world, I don’t walk around going, I’m a United States, male heterosexual Christian artists. But a lot of my students, at least we’re walking around going, I’m a Muslim, United Arab Emirate woman artist, and I wonder about the the nature of like, putting all these, I don’t know what they’re called, but like extra words, on descriptions, like why I was always trying to encourage the students to be great artists, period, don’t care about their gender, their religion, their geographical location, just great artists. But yet, a lot of people and don’t get me wrong, this is not a UAE thing alone. I mean, I know a lot of American artists who say, Oh, I’m an American, or French artists say they’re French artist, you know, whatever. But how can we try and transcend that a little bit more? So they get it? So that the, that those things are not as important?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 17:56
It’s very good question. I mean, I think it has to do with maturity and confidence, really, you know, wherever you go in the world, you have families that don’t want the travel their daughter to pursue a humanities career. My mother wanted me to be my mother wanted me to be a pediatrician at the age of seven, because I could spell the word, no interested sides whatsoever. I think, you know, I’m talking about the issues of being defined by one’s own nationality, one’s own culture, I think all of us go through a period of our life, if we are practitioners, be art, design, music, whatever discipline of wanting to belong to a community, wanting to wear your heart on your sleeve, so to speak, and never forget that, you know, the UAE is built on tribal society, you are part of a greater unit. And that is what keeps gives you the confidence to continue. That’s what gives you the strength and the ability to succeed. So, what as you grow, you grow out of that mentality, you start to develop confidence in your own self expression. And I think, you know, I am certainly seeing that with NRT practitioners, but not for them now in their late 20s and early 30s, and late 30s. But I think certainly 18 to 21 year olds at university and those coming into the pre professional phase of their careers. Yeah, of course they don’t they want to attach themselves to something. And that something is is the modern day tribe.

Matthew Dols 19:47
Okay, I can I can go with the idea of like, sort of wanting to wanting to find your tribe or your community. I mean, we all do it. Even in the arts. We look for our own little tribe and all this kind of stuff that it makes better sense for me. I’ve been asking that question to a lot of people and nobody can give me a good answer. But that was a good answer. When I was in the UAE, one of the things that I found that was kind of difficult was that a lot of what I would call like professional art supplies were not available. So like, how do you sort of get encouraged artists in a region where maybe some of the more and a sound snobby, saying and like professional art supplies, but like professional art supplies are difficult to get into the Middle East? For customs reasons, and whatever other and of course, the shipping costs and all these kinds of stuffs like, how do you help them to sort of elevate their practice with the fact that it’s difficult to necessarily get sort of professional materials?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 20:49
Yeah, look, it may be a desert, but it’s not literally a desert when it comes to shopping. You know that and you know, consumerism has spread, you know, what you can buy online these days and get delivered within five working days is absolutely astonishing, wherever you are in the world. And the UAE is no different to that. I certainly seen over the last three and a half years, while I’ve been at cash, feel the supply chains have really widened up. Just last week, I was informed of another art supply store that was opening a second branch in how a nice another district of Dubai, so it’s not as bad as all that. But yes, when you do get down the very specialist routes, were even in the Czech Republic here, we’re in the UK or the US, you would have to perhaps pre order something from the other side of the country. It’s the same here now, if our members tell us over and over again, Oh, come on, I need some fabriano paper from Italy. This particular GSM is not available in the UAE please out we go. That’s let’s, let’s let’s bulk order. And let’s share let’s have some are short, and let’s share the cost with you members. So you know, you can buy your quantity you need now. And you can have a backup supplies are available to purchase from Tesco. So yeah, we think round those little challenges. But in my three and a half years at Tesco, I think we’ve had to do that twice.

Matthew Dols 22:17
What about the art buying market? I mean, Now keep in mind, so like I’m coming from I was raised in America, and now live in Europe. Having been there I sort of have a my own little personal opinion and experiences of it there. But the world’s perception of how the art world is going in the United Arab Emirates, I believe is very different than the reality. So like, what’s your experiences in the sort of art buying collector part of the world there?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 22:45
I first moved to the UAE in 2005. And I was the first full time editors canvass, the first Middle East art magazine. And back then you could literally write down on a piece of paper, the known collectors, let me say, the longer I’ve spent in this in particularly in the Arabian Gulf, the more I understand that too. And I know this sounds funny, but to display your wealth, to display your collection and say, Look at me and look at all the wonderful artists, artwork that I own is in some segments of society, seen as not good to do. modesty is the best policy. I know you’re looking at beyond the camera. Has she lost the plot? But really, to be honest, over the last,

Matthew Dols 23:42
we’re talking about Dubai, right? Like it is not a modest place?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 23:48
No, I’m talking about Dubai. I’m also talking about, you know, my experience in Bahrain and Saudi as well, there are collectors who want to remain very private. They relish the collections that they amassed on a private level, and they do not wish to display their wares at every opportunity. Now, there is another collector who does that on a very demonstrative public level. I was here when Christie’s the auction house first set up shop, and they were the first auction house to establish themselves in the United Arab Emirates. And they I remember, they held their first auction of Middle East contemporary art in Emirates towers in Dubai. And literally people were putting their hands up, go look at me look at me and how much I’m bidding. And there was a period in the ensuing years where you would go to an opening of a new exhibition and you would see people didn’t have the slightest interest in looking at the work. They were looking at the label so we’re looking at the prices Hello, we’re looking at the people around them, hey, look at me, I am here on my wonderful. It’s like a really excited teenager that that gets their Nintendo playbooks for the first time. And we’ve we’ve come through the other end of that excitement with the new collections of becoming more discerning, they’re becoming more experimental. Some of the collections that I’ve seen, are formidable, not just because of what they contain. But what the collector knows him or herself. The collectors are becoming as informed as the gallerist they buy from, they’re becoming savvy, they are getting more and more interested in not just buying the same old familiar name. They are interested in investing in up and coming artists. The reason I say that, and I’ll give you an example, when the auction houses first came onto the scene here, there was several artists who for every single sale, they would have at least one or two pieces in. And then suddenly, the auction market sort of starts to slow down, some would say mature. And those artists are in a little bit of a pickle, because they flooded the market with so much work, that the resale price of those pieces is not even the same as when you bought it originally. And collectors became wise to that. So I think that the collectors are becoming more educated themselves more informed. They are becoming part of the scene now. And it’s fantastic to have conversations with them because they are so knowledgeable now. Yes, you get the odd one, we still you know, back in the 2008. The wonderful majority of them are getting more and more informed and more and more interested

Matthew Dols 27:11
from my experiences in the UAE the I found that a lot of the collectors in the UAE would only collect Middle Eastern art. There was a not at that time. And maybe just the people I met very much interested in artists from throughout the world and me because like I know a lot of artists are like, Oh my gosh, there’s a ton of money in Dubai, I want to sell my art they’re, you know, trying to get galleries in Dubai to try and exhibit in Dubai or do residencies or other things like this, which are very Tisch Kiehl’s sort of oriented, but has that sort of nature of like, a collecting beyond just the Middle East started to occur yet?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 27:53
I don’t know every single collector in the UAE let’s put that caveat out there right now, I can only speak my own experience, right.

Matthew Dols 28:01
I think you know, a lot of them, I don’t know what you’re talking about. But that’s fine.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 28:06
I think that a collection reflects your interests and who you are. And I think the majority of collectors here in Dubai are of our origin. And so the artists of the Middle East and Arab world reflect how they see the world. And I think that that’s just a human trait at the end of the day. Now, there are the same collectors have studied in the US, done, their post grad in France, lived in Russia worked in Australia. And so they may well be as informed about those art scenes as as they are in the MENA, Middle East North Africa sea. And certainly I have, you know, I can I can count on one hand, the number of private collections that are exclusively 100%, Middle Eastern, but then you get to another question, what is Middle East? What is Arab? You know, and then you get into this whole spiel about, you know, borders and boundaries and colonialism and so forth and, and Arab unity all within what, open that Pandora’s box now, but, you know, throwing these labels and trying to categorize and compartmentalized collections, Yes, I understand. It has to be done. But in my personal experience, you collect what you want to collect, you collect what speaks to you. And, you know, when I go around a collectors residence, and they, they talk about the works, and it triggers memories and recollections. That’s beautiful. I don’t care where they’re from, you know, they could be from China, they could be from France, they could be from Lebanon, I don’t care. It’s about that journey, that that collector is trying to build themselves. Now, you mentioned a very good point. about, you know, artists coming to this part of the world because they think the highways are paved with gold. I love those people, because I can smell them a mile off. And if I have an arts professional or some individual who comes to me, and sits in front of me and says, oh, we’d like to collaborate, or we’d like to do a project, I know immediately call it semi female intuition. I know immediately that they’re not interested in a collaboration, they’re interested in a transaction. It’s two very different words. I’m not interested in a transaction, I’m interested in a legacy and legacy that will be of benefit to the practitioners here in the UAE, and, and the wider Middle East North Africa region. So I send those people on their way, or they can shop down the road of the commercial galleries that are in Dubai International Financial Center in other parts of the UAE, who has a far wider global client reach. That’s the test scale. We’re about developing meaningful, memorable, mutually beneficial relationships.

Matthew Dols 31:07
Okay, now, but now Tesco has a residency program. I love residency programs, I’m all about them tell. So like, like you just said, like, you can smell out the people that like are coming for ulterior motives and things like this. Is this something that happens a lot in like the residency applications where people will be like, yeah, I want to come to Dubai, because there’s a ton of money there kind of like Digg or, you know, like, what are you seeking for somebody who, like, let’s say, wants to apply for a residency there?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 31:37
Well, I’ve got some bad news. Our residency is I’m not open for application. So they are by invitation only, we don’t find you. We tracked you down. And if you like the look of you, we will extend the arm of friendship and start a conversation. That conversation could last many months, even years before we invite you for residency because our residency start at four months. And they go up to a year. Some of your listeners might know of the artists LCD, who is now you know, well, well known throughout the world. 5g started a relationship with us when he was invited to do a one year residency with us in 2013, where the challenge was plunked down in front of him by Scheffler T for the founder. So you are not allowed to do anything two dimensional. The moment you walk into a skill, two dimensional canvases, you’re not allowed to touch them, you could only work three dimensionally. And that 12 months was a challenge. But it changed his practice to what you see today. In Korea, in Canada, in France, in Dubai. That’s how we work our residency. It’s almost top secret in terms of how we invite people, and they remain part of the family. Is it

Matthew Dols 32:57
actually top secret because I would really love to know like, like what we know, because like, the reason why I asked this is because like, I know this guy and I say this a lot this guy in Washington, DC, who has a gallery and he used to say he used to I don’t know if it was a joke that he said this or real. But he used to say he would find an artist and then he would put it up, put them in a file folder. And then 10 years later, he would go look and see if they were still making work. And then maybe he would be interested in representing them. But he needed that 10 years of tenacity and continuing to practice and making better work before he would even entertain representing them. So that’s what I’m wondering like, so these kinds of invitation only. So not just you all but I mean any invitation only residency or program of any sort? Like, what are some of the criteria you look for? Like? I’ll say like, Hey, I’m sitting here, I was in the UAE and what what would have gotten me on the radar as a practitioner to be invited?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 33:57
It’s very good question. I think I think for us, one of the key criteria points is that we are looking for someone who has, what a discipline or technique or interest that is nascent here in the UAE, and that by them coming here and spending a significant amount of time with us, not only will they be able to extend the boundaries of our practice, but they will also be able to share their techniques, technical skills and perspective and approach with our fellow members. So they’re passing it forward, so to speak, and sowing the seeds so that that particular technique or discipline or subject matter can take root in the UAE and grow. So it’s very much sort of wanted to call it legacy development. I think it’s also more and more we’re looking at reciprocal array. instruments for residency. So just as we would invite someone from overseas that we’ve been following for a while, we would want to send somebody from the UAE, to that destination as well. We’ve done that with Japan, a wonderful studio based in Japan, we also did that in 2019, with Santi Contemporary Art Center in Scotland, you know, where once residencies were a one way road, you know, a monologue, so to speak, we’ve got something to offer. Now, we’ve got, in fact, quite a few practitioners to offer the world that the world could learn from, and we want to send them out there. So while residencies are starting to have that reciprocal aspect to them, as well,

Matthew Dols 35:44
interesting. So I’m not sure I got a clear answer. How does somebody get on the radar of the way, but like, let’s say back, I said, Is it a committee? Or is it like an individual person? Like, you know, do you have a curator that sort of does the selection for the invitations and things like this, like, I’m utterly fascinated, and I’m not trying to find some deep dark secret from you all, but like, I’m really fascinated, because, you know, some residencies say that they have a selection committee, and some say that, like, they will actually hire a curator, and the curator will go out and find people that they think would mesh well together kind of thing like so like, what’s the kind of practice in the way that you all have figured out to do that?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 36:30
No, we don’t have a selection committee, we don’t need one, the individual who established terascale, who embodies its vision, who is a phenomenal, fine artist herself, and knows the workings of her skill inside and out on a daily basis, she makes the final decision. And she will follow practitioners for for many, many years before she eventually, you know, shows, right, this is the one we’re going to go after. Similarly, other members of the team, and we are really small team, we’ve got to say, you know, we are doing lots of different jobs at the same time, we will obviously, highlight and suggestion practitioners as well. So we’ll follow people concurrently. And when we feel that there’s a right time, in their career, and in their life, to pack up and move to the UAE for four months or more, you know what everybody can do that? Let’s face it, and then we will we will pounce. But no, we don’t have selection committees, we cut through all of that bureau of bureaucracy. We go with instinct and the instinct of our founder.

Matthew Dols 37:37
Probably a lot easier than all the committee meetings that I’ve heard about from other places. Yes. Okay. How about the growth of the general arts industry? Because you you, you know, I was there from 2012 till 2018 or so something in that range. So, I was only there for like a segment, but you’ve been there for much longer, and you’ve seen a lot more growth in that industry throughout. I mean, you’ve been there from before the loove probably even before they even planned for the Louvre in Abu Dhabi, and and all the way up to what’s going on now which mean you know, now the the Dubai art fair, the Abu Dhabi art fair, all these kinds of things are starting to get much broader international interest in the region. And so like, you know, how have you seen it grow and what what do you think is going to be the future of all this? I don’t mean to make you prognosticate. So how do you see the growth

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 38:40
to a crystal ball, Matthew, that’s for sure. But how have I seen how have I seen the growth of the art scene here in the UAE? Well, you know, talk about the lever. I was at the press conference in 2006. When they announced Saturday at Island cultural district. I was there with Richard Armstrong from the Guggenheim foundation. Zaha Hadid was there. Heather Lando was there. It was a phenomenal event. And you know, despite trials and tribulations, they are doing it and the Louvre Abu Dhabi is a phenomenal feat of architecture, and it has one of the most astounding collections in the world. So what if they bought the brand? Go and see it? You know, the substance is phenomenal.

Matthew Dols 39:22
I lived right I was I lived on Reem Island, like literally like I could have walked over there so that he was magnificent.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 39:28
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I should never forget that. I think. Yes, you’ve got you’ve got interesting case studies happening side by side, I think in the UAE, you know, you’ve got to remember that. This is seven emirates. It’s a federation, so to speak, which signed a unifying agreement in 1971. And so you’ve got three dominating Emirates Abu Dhabi, which has the capital of the UAE, Dubai and next door to Dubai is the Emirate of Sharjah. You’ve got three different And approaches to culture happening side by side. It’s fantastic microcosm. In Sharjah, it’s very much patronage led the ruler of Sharjah, and his family, his daughters and his sons have been phenomenal protagonists in the grossest the cultural scene very much from a patronage perspective, I would I would describe their patronage in Dubai, build it and they will come trade trade trade it was before it will be now it will be in the future. So this is where the commercial galleries This is where the auction houses set up shop. in Abu Dhabi, you’ve got a very much government driven public sector driven art scene where capital buildings, capital projects, like the loove, like the Guggenheim, Zion National Museum, are taking shape. So you’ve got three different examples next door to each other. Now, I spent a long time in, in in Abu Dhabi, and, you know, hats off to what they’re doing there. There aren’t that many commercial galleries there, there is a growing number of connected. But it’s, it’s from an independent basis in Dubai, independence, that’s what it’s all about, whether you’re going down the commercial route, or you want to form some kind of collective as practitioners yourself. However, the whole of the UAE is really limited to what it can achieve from an experimental perspective. That is really down to the philanthropist that drives the not for profit sector, as we all know it around the world. It is those philanthropists that are setting up the incubators, the hub, the springboards to allow each generation each cohort of graduates resides University, to experiment, and to play and to grow and to fly the nest.

Matthew Dols 42:10
Your answer calls?

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 42:13
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I think that that area needs needs more focus, in my personal opinion, but hey, I’m biased. I think we’ve got a very strong commercial sector traded in the lifeblood of this country that is in the lifeblood of the Emirate of Dubai, particularly, you’ve got, you know, phenomenal capital projects growing up across the UAE. Now, what you need is a big Valley in which all the artists and practitioners that are living and working here, can fail, can grow can work can thrive without fear of monetary consequences. That’s the area that needs to grow. And it is it is unseeing really interesting to just by appearing now on the tree. This is a cultural sector in the UAE so so over the next few years, you’re gonna see the not for profit sector grow eventually, I think, Well,

Matthew Dols 43:13
I mean, there’s amazing resources, I mean, the design districts and a bunch of the other things around I mean, there’s some absolutely astounding stuff. That it’s funny because like I remember like looking at with some students of mine that they were thinking they were like, oh, we’ll just go rent a studio like this design, the design district, Dubai, Dubai design district d3, and the the prices I when I heard them, I was like, Are you kidding me? Like that’s not an artist studio, that’s a retail space. But but to them, they were just like, Oh, yeah, that’s an artist studio. That’s fine. I was just like, what that I mean, the the possibility of like an outside of the UAE artists coming into the UAE and being able to afford to be an artist, I always thought it was there was a bit of a barrier to entry on that. I mean, you know, if you’re going to come to Dubai, you have to sort of have to do something else and do art on the side, at least in the beginning just to get yourself settled in. Because it the that the general sort of cost of living there is really high and really, so as I said barrier to entry for a lot of potential creative people wanting to move there.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 44:31
Yes, no, no doubt about it. It is an expensive city, but the fees you charge are expensive compared to other parts of the world as well. So what you what you invoice you receive, and you spend, they have recognized the government that both in terms of the different Emirates and the wider federal government has recognized this. And I read regularly in the newspapers more and more announcements, particularly sort of post COVID lots Down of raising those barriers to entry. So now it’s cheaper than ever to set yourself up as a freelance furniture designer, a freelance graphic designer, freelance artists, a freelance filmmaker, the prices of properties, rental properties are going down and down are becoming much more affordable. And you know, the general legislation around moving moving to the UAE and how you can set yourself up here. Yes, of course, you need investment. But of course, you need investment wherever you move in the world. But you don’t need the Big Fat Fat checks that one talked about, you know, before 2000 2012 or whatever. No, I think it’s far more achievable now than it’s ever been. I have to say, go back to the studio issue. Yeah, price per pair per square foot of real estate here in the UAE, whether it’s residential, commercial, or whatever they use is, is we are one of the most expensive places to live in the world. We’re not going to fall down believe tomorrow, get used to it.

Matthew Dols 46:03
We were looking at a warehouse district in Abu Dhabi. And it was Don’t get me wrong. Actually. There was a place we found that was stunning, massive, like 20,000 square meter space, it was absolute gorgeous. price was very affordable. no air conditioning. Yeah. Yeah. Which is totally implausible in that region to have a studio with no climate control.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 46:33
Fair enough. Fair enough. Matthew, I spent five years in Morocco with no air conditioning, but I’d say five years here, I would not, I would not survive. The UAE is far more humid. You know, I mean, it is a massive issue. But like any other major city in the world, artists are the first people to follow the industrialists in sniffing out cheap areas, the moment they form a critical mass, and they start to hit the headlines. Oh, there goes gentrification opportunity. And the whole wheel starts again, you know, we seen this with an area in Dubai called el coche. It’s an industrial estate. And you know, when I first moved there, you know, to go to well, college, it was local, or you’re entering, you know, a very dodgy area. Oh, no, no galleries there. And suddenly, suddenly, we find out that near the cemetery next to the industrial estate is the flying house, which was the home of San Sharif, the father of contemporary art in the UAE. And then there’s a gallery that pops up down the road. And over the last 1520 years, suddenly, the art scene has a mass of the galleries have a mass in our course, people have got savvy to this, they throw, they shot the rental prices through the roof, and no one can afford it anymore. So they’re moving to other industrial estates further inland. But, you know, you go where the cheap rents are, I think that’s, that’s the natural. Next, the organic urban master plan when it comes to arts and culture. You know,

Matthew Dols 48:18
it’s not a master plan. It’s just the way it works. I’ve lived in Washington, DC, and San Francisco, and Heck, even it’s happening here in Prague now to that, like, the, you know, the artists go into these industrial areas, and they make it attractive, and then the developers go in and buy it up. And then the artists are pushed out, and we have to keep finding new new places. Like, it’s just the way of the world unfortunately, it’s it’s not planned, but it happens. Happens repeatedly. So we should start noticing this.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 48:57
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you know, studios is a big issue here. I remember a couple of years ago, we had a member who came to join cashville. And she said, I’ve been in Dubai for a year. And I didn’t realize you existed and I could you know rent space from you. I’ve spent the last year spending 85,000 dirhams try work that out in dollars, while I’m talking 85,000 dirhams on the studio apartment to use as my art studio. And then a year later she finds and she takes one of our private workspaces. And she flourishes for a lot less than I say, no artist studios. Yeah, that that is a big issue in the UAE and it does need support, but it’s being recognized. Things things are going to happen in the next couple of years around that area.

Matthew Dols 49:43
I’m figuring out at 5000 that would be 23,000 us or 19,000 euros Yeah, yeah studio Yeah, that’s not that’s not your living house. That’s your that’s your studio space. Like Yeah, Wait, okay. One thing that I noticed when I was there, again is like there were a lot of very, very talented expats in the creative industries in the UAE. And I felt like we didn’t have as many opportunities as regionals. Is that? Is that something you notice? I felt like my unit, my national Mr. Ortiz had exponentially more opportunities than any xpat ever did. But be it funding, support, exhibition opportunities, whatever like, like, I it always pissed me off when my students would gret go to graduate. And they’d be like, Oh, I just won this award. And I’m like, oh, would you win? And they were like, Oh, you know, $50,000, like dollars? And I’m like, are you? Like, can I apply for that? They’re like, no, because it’s only, like, it’s only for Mr. Ortiz, like, God dammit. I know what the answer is? The answer is, it’s their country, it’s their money, they can do whatever they want.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 51:06
That’s the answer. That is half the answer. The other half is that the mindset of the decision makers are changing. Yeah, as the UAE grows. I mean, I, I’ve seen the How can you say the way of speaking, is changing in terms of expatriates not being expatriates or residents, that there is a greater recognition in both formal and informal communications from governments and leaders in this country, that this is a multinational population, and we must invest in it accordingly. Yes, there will always be preferential exclusive opportunities for UAE nationals. And why not? It’s their country, as you say. But there is a growing there is a growing the world, the doors are opening up for initiatives that are both for UAE and the UAE based practitioners skills. From the moment we opened our doors, we were for everybody living and working in the UAE, I don’t care what passport you’ve got, even if you haven’t got a passport, you are welcome here, if you fit our criteria, and that that approach has been adopted, more and more and more certainly in the last, I’d say, six or seven years, you’re seeing a real change in the way people talk about opportunities. And that less and less, it’s more and more I should say it’s becoming a level playing field.

Matthew Dols 52:50
What doing right, like when I was, I mean, this is probably talking more about my insecurities and my, my own issues of my, my being a practicing artist. But like, when I was there, I saw my students graduate, and when these really big awards that they would get this massive amount of money, or they would get this amazing exhibition at some really great gallery, that I as an expert never even had the opportunity. Now, I sat there and I was just like, I’m so bitter that these like young students who just graduated, I’m their mentor, I’m their teacher, and I don’t have the same opportunities. But at now that I have left there, and I’ve had time to reflect on this situation. I realized, Oh, wait, every country does that. In America, there are plenty of opportunities for Americans only that other nationalities are not allowed to do. I’m in the Czech Republic. There are things here that I’m not allowed into, because I’m American, and I’m not Czech, so they I took it personally. Like I thought it was something against me. But it turns out I was like, oh, oh, no, everybody does this, everybody. And so like, I was angry while I was there, because I was like, why do I not get these opportunities, but the reality is, is like, that happens everywhere in the world. Like it’s not special at all to that region. But But what what did what did upset me the most and it was very difficult. In the United States, like when I apply for a grant, let’s say like, right, or let’s say an award, let’s go go to the war because that’s the one that I was most bitter about with my student winning with the in America if you enter a competition, you win award, boy, it would be like $1,000 if you’re lucky, like $1,000 Wow. Or maybe best case scenario like a purchase award. So you just get you know, your money back for them selling a piece of work. But in the UAE like I literally saw one of my students who like I think she was still in her senior semester like so she hadn’t even graduated and she wanted award for like, 25,000 US dollars. And they didn’t buy the works. That was just the award. So she just turned $25,000 as a senior in college and I’m like, why is this disparity so disheartening to me, because in America, there is no money for arts, but like in the UAE, to their, you know, to, I’m praising them in a certain way is like to their benefit, they are putting money into arts and culture in a way that a lot of other countries do not do.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 55:38
Certainly got to remember that the cost of living here is much higher.

Matthew Dols 55:43
$25,000 doesn’t go as far.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 55:46
Exactly my friend, do you know that. So you know, of course, the awards and prizes are going to be higher, you’ve got to take that into consideration. It’s usually, you know, simple economics. But, you know, I do appreciate that some people who come to the UAE, to teach to they move here to practice, it doesn’t come across as this huge disparity. But I have to say, I’ve lived in Morocco, I’ve lived in Egypt, I’ve lived in Lebanon, bufferin, and the UAE, when he first touchdown, and I know I’m generalizing here, and I hope I don’t offend. But when when I first touched down in any of these countries, it takes me a year and a half of real might I say all this stalking, but networking, and you know, going out there and being seen and making conversation with people who really are not interested in you whatsoever, it takes you a minimum of a year and a half, to finally get noticed and go, okay, she’s not here to us. She’s not here as a selfish opportunity. She’s not interested in just a monologue, she’s interested in a dialogue, she’s interested in putting something down here. And she’s interested in collaboration. It does help that I do speak a little bit of Arabic as well. And I am astonished at the number of foreign non Arabic speaking nationals that are here in the UAE for years. And they don’t even know how to say hello. I mean, come on. I know English language is the dominant language here and you try to speak to anybody in their language. And they will reply to you in English, I know it’s difficult, you’re not going to immerse yourself here. But that’s no excuse for you not to learn the language. And in learning the language, you get to understand the inside of the culture, and you get to really appreciate the soul of this place. And somehow, in many months from first landing, a switch goes on in your head, and a light goes on in other people’s heads. And that’s when the interesting conversation starts to take place.

Matthew Dols 58:07
I 100% agree with that. Like I’ve moved, I think I counted at one time. I think since I left my childhood home, I’ve moved 19 times throughout the world. Yeah, no, too many. And and this is the sort of point and I’ve talked about this on the podcast before it’s like, to my detriment to my career detriment, because I’m having to restart. And so like, I have another two years to settle in, for people to realize that I’m staying that I’m going to be part of this community. And this is one of those things that like, it takes time to build that relationship of, I’m not just here as a visitor or as a tourist or as, or to use the use you all are to be that monologue, as you said, but that I want to be part of the community and and that and that’s, you know, that’s a difficult thing. Like, like, when I was a kid, I always thought traveling and experiences were great, you should try and do as many as you could and sort of be able to see the world and get a lot of perspectives and all this. But I realized that I think I took that too far. At a certain point like settling down like you’ve done like you’ve settled into the UAE and you’ve sort of become a part of the fabric of the community, but working between, you know, add math and now attached keel and all this, like you’ve built a career and you’ve built that that network of peers and, you know, artists and all the other people that you’ve been, you know, working with, like this is something that that artists should learn to do. And people in any part of the creative industries should learn to strike, like find a place that they feel comfortable and like stay there and build their network from that home base, rather than to keep traveling and changing locations like I did because I believe it is hurt my career rather dramatically. But that’s just my therapy session.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 1:00:00
But it’s a messy it’s not it’s not just a career, isn’t it, it’s not, you’re not just doing it to add a couple of extra lines in your CV, you’re in it for the journey you’re in. It’s the experiences. I always said, when I was, you know, before I left Morocco, I moved back to the UK, and then decided, and I was fortunate enough to get an opportunity to go to Egypt. So I had a second chance to go to the Middle East. And I and I remember holding that contract in my hand and thinking, I could stay in the UK. And I could, you know, join the masses and do the commute and, you know, have, you know, 3.5 children or half a Labrador. And I thought, like, when I’m old and gray, I want memories. And I want to sit in that chair and say, Well, I don’t want to sit in that chair and say if only, I don’t want to be old and gray and have regrets. And and I went with what was in my stomach, I firmly believe that my gut feeling I loved where I’ve lived with all the challenges, as you say that come with it. But I have to say on a personal note, yeah, I will remain in the UAE for as long as the UAE will have me. But at some point, home does cool, you know, my, my parents are getting older, you know, my husband is getting older. And you know, your family ties do call you back, particularly when you’re in a society in a culture where family is so important. And where you see on a daily basis, I’ll pull from this part of the world, you know, suddenly is the fundamental element to their life. And you Lisa has removed yourself from it to embark on this journey of experiences. There does come a time in your life where you do have to face that dilemma and decide, okay, am I in it for another 10 years? Or do I have to sort of face up for family responsibilities and move back home? Fortunately, I’ve not reached that level yet. And I am only 48. But I know that time will come? And I don’t have an answer for it yet.

Matthew Dols 1:02:12
All right, any last sort of maybe advice or sort of anything you want people to know that maybe we didn’t touch on that you want to get out there.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 1:02:21
I’ve looked at the other episodes on your podcast and congratulations, I understand this is the probably around the 100 and 41st episode that you’re recording. I recorded more. And some people have said, I don’t like what we said could you not publish it.

Matthew Dols 1:02:39
So I’ve recorded a few more than that and been very nice and not put it out into the public because they didn’t like it for whatever reason. There were some funny ones. There was one that I loved this guy in Vienna, oh my god, he sat down and like he just railed against the art world for like an hour and a half. He’s like, I fucking hate the art world. The art world’s horrible. There are a bunch of this bastard book, this, like cursing like a sailor like having a horrible day. And I just sat there laughing so hard, because I’m like, Oh, my God, this is the most magnificent interview ever. And then the next day, he was like, yeah, could you not publish that? And

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 1:03:25
it was so good. Yeah, well, I’m sure I won’t do that. You know, I think that, you know, I’ve been fortunate enough to travel around the world with my job. But I’ve always travelled from this, you know, from the Middle East North Africa region. And I think that gives you a certain, certainly a different perspective on life, and a different way of listening to people. And I would encourage anyone out there listening, if you haven’t considered, you know, Middle East, North Africa, give it a go. If you’re an artist or designer, or you work in the contemporary art scene, just you know, shoot us out an email. There’s many of us out here that were part of the great big family in the world. And, you know, people may look at the MENA region as being nations in the contemporary art scene. Oh contraire, my dear, we’ve been doing this for hundreds of years. They just haven’t written books about it in the English language. But we’ve got a phenomenal Yeah, we’ve got a phenomenal, you know, heritage in terms of visual arts expression. And common let’s talk that’s, you know, our doors are open more so than ever before.

Matthew Dols 1:04:43
I will actually I’ll give a caveat on that. Like, as an outsider as a non person living in the Middle East and you want to go to the Middle East. The best thing that I saw a lot of people do is just write an email to somebody like because even as a professor at the University, people would would contact me and say like, Hey, I would love to come and do a workshop at your school. And a lot of times, we would be like, yeah, you know what that fits our curriculum beautifully. And we would find the budget to fly them out and bring them in and whatever. So like, but but the key thing is is like, for me, like from the specifically from like the financial situation of like the cost of living there, and all this kind of stuff. If you want to go to the middle of the Lord to the UAE, in particular, I should say, partner with an organization like context, an organization, create some relationship with them, don’t just go there blindly, and just be like, Hey, I’m just like, Hey, I’m here. Because like, that, you’re not going to get anywhere with that. But But if you can find an organization, such as Tesco, or alserkal, or any of the other big organizations around, like, that’s your way in is trying to find a relationship that you can build a start before you get there and then build once you’re there. That’s the way into that region for sure not but do not go blindly as an artist into the, into the UAE because they, like you said it takes two years worth of being there to make some relationship. So like, trying to just drop yourself in there is never going to work.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 1:06:10
Yeah, I totally agree. There was one word that I learned when I lived in Lebanon. And that word is now worse, that can have negative connotations, but it can have positive connotations as well. What’s the means connections? It’s who you know, my friend, you know, you’ll meet one person, they’ll introduce you to another and the multiplicity of people grows, and all of a sudden you realize that everybody’s got them on your, you know, got you on your foot on their phones. And they what’s happening you 24 seven, you need that that introduction, you need to develop your network through endorsement. Through recommendation, that is the most important thing.

Matthew Dols 1:06:49
Yeah. That’s not the way they use wost at my school, but yes, I believe that that translation would work. Also.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 1:06:59
There’s two different interpretations there. I’d go for the more positive one.

Matthew Dols 1:07:04
That’s good. Yeah. It was more of a slang term around the university campus. But anyways, okay, any? How about any advice? Do you have any advice for anything in particular? Somebody who might want to do what you do once, you know said, like somebody who wants to get into the industry, in your capacity, or anybody who’s interested in working with Tesco, or any anything, any sort of advice that you’re like, I know this answer.

Lisa Ball-Lechgar 1:07:34
No, there are very many artists that I that I do not know. But I think from an arts, I’m an arts administrator, arts manager, I enable people I don’t try to compete. When people come to my skill and asked me what kind of art I do, or am I a product designer, I tell them with a proud heart, I am completely unqualified, because no, I I trained as an actress. And then I ended up running the theatre company I was performing in. But when I came to the Middle East, North Africa, I started in theater, but I quickly realized that it wasn’t a dominant discipline within the cultural sector. And I migrated over to visual art and design. And I am thank my lucky stars. I did that. Although I, I’ve also maintained my hand for theater and Opera. But I have to say, management is not a secondary career. It is a primary career, it doesn’t mean that you failed, and therefore you go and you have to go and manage Excel spreadsheets. You know, you should see it as a primary career. And there’s a lot of opportunities out there for people who want to pursue 100%, a CULTURAL MANAGEMENT career, and also those practitioners who want to sustain themselves from various different channels of income generation, and their thought, thereby get a part time job. As an arts administrator, you can also go down that route as well and sustain yourself. But I would definitely say that there are growing opportunities here in the UAE, in art management, as the institution’s grow as the buildings grow, there will be opportunities, not only for those UAE nationals that we talked about earlier, to start their careers or continue their careers in arts administration, but also for people from around the world, who know best best practice and who are culturally sensitive and are curious about this country and its people that the doors are open to them. So So yeah, I think

Matthew Dols 1:09:50
lovely. Well, thank you very much for your time. Thank you.