Transcript for Episode 109 – Photographer, Julia SH (Los Angeles, CA, USA)

Recorded August 14, 2020
Published September 24, 2020

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/photographer-julia-sh-los-angeles-ca-usa/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
I read your bio. Oh, the one we’re talking about David has love. Oh, no, maybe that was my old one. No, I did not see anything about.

Julia SH 0:20
I want to know what what did it say about David Hasselhoff? Ah, God, I think I left my artist bio up a little bit too long like it was a joke that I had and I probably uni that I was trying to get our grants for a project where I would come over to the United States to try and track down David Hasselhoff and convince him to shave off his chest hair so I could stuff a pillow with it. And the pillow would then become the work of art. I guess I actually did try and get funding for this project. But I was turned down several times that I still think it’s like a great project. Like I still want to see it happen. But I feel like I’ve talked so much about it now that the idea of it might be stronger than the actual work. I think you should go to the awesome Foundation, they will give you $1,000 towards that. Thanks. So, I mean, I did meet David Hasselhoff once and I pitched it to him and he was kind of drunk at the time. It didn’t seem like it would be an impossible request. But I think it would need some financial backing. Because it is his trademark. You could

Matthew Dols 1:24
also just get a sponsor. I’m sure to do it immediate, you know, get some make it a thing like get some alcohol to sponsor it. He gets drunk, shaves it off, make it a YouTube video. Put it all together. You got to hold it. You could do Red Bull even come on get sponsors.

Julia SH 1:42
Maybe that’s true. I mean, I spent I almost got thrown out of my first year of art school because I only made work about David Hasselhoff. And I made this life size painting of his chest, like covered in pubic hair, not mine. But like every guy in the art school had to shave off their pubic hair and paste it onto this painting, which unfortunately, my mom has to take care of now. And it’s not it’s not a happy thing right now. She always calls me She’s like, you want to pick this thing up in Sweden? Like know, how

Matthew Dols 2:15
large scale is this? Like? larger size? Just Yeah, it’s

Julia SH 2:19
just his chest. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I mean, if someone’s out there listening to this, they want to give me some money to pursue this art project with David Hasselhoff. It’s not something that I’ve completely shelved. I’d be very open to it at the start again and document the process.

Matthew Dols 2:35
Or if David Hasselhoff is listening,

Julia SH 2:37
yes, please, please. I mean, don’t make it too easy for me. Because you know, the process is also part of the work.

Matthew Dols 2:44
But how amazing would it be if David Hasselhoff is actually listening to this and it would be perfect? Yes. Would be astounding. Absolutely. All right.

Julia SH 2:54
I’m glad I moved away from that part of my biome. I’m glad I that’s not a part of it anymore. So I’m glad you read the more adult version of it.

Matthew Dols 3:02
You do know I just recorded all of that.

Julia SH 3:04
I know. I know. But I also want to put out in the universe of cases around I mean, I’m saying I haven’t outgrown it quite yet.

Matthew Dols 3:11
I love it. It’s great. It sounds like a fun project. Okay, so I actually let’s get back a minute with one thing that I actually want to know about you is your name. What do I call you? What is your proper name? Yeah, you know, that’s that’s a good one. So well, because I saw Julia Ashe and then I also saw Julia sh. Yeah, yeah, that’s just that’s, that’s more like it. I have two last names, which made it very complicated when I moved out here. Nobody could ever spell it. They all got it wrong. Everyone thought I was Jewish. Nothing wrong with that. But it was so much to explain. So when I was a kid in Sweden, because I also have the most common Swedish name ever. There were so many Julia’s in my class. So they just had to say like, Julia Kay, Julia. Ah, and I just was Julia sh. So I was like, well screw it. I’ll just use my little, you know, nickname for when I was a kid, which not saying that’s good or bad. But unfortunately, I made some work that got some recognition while I was using that name, and now I can just part from it. I mean, and also, I thought it was kind of

Julia SH 4:24
nice to separate that from my my amateur Sumo career I once had under one of my last name. tansen Julia Hanson. So wait, wait, I’m sorry. Did you say amateur Sumo?

Yeah, I want the US Open and Sumo a couple years ago before I tore my ACL so that was a big thing. And it just became so I’ve done so many weird things under my other names that I was like, Okay, you know what, I’m just gonna keep that compartmentalized. It’s too many questions. So, so that just became my art name. Really Julia sh Yeah.

Matthew Dols 5:03
I’m not here to judge.

Julia SH 5:06
I started over, I would use my full name. But you know, done. It’s done.

Matthew Dols 5:12
Okay, that’s fine. Yeah. Now, would you define yourself as more of a commercial photographer or an art fine art photographer?

Julia SH 5:20
Oh, that’s a good question. I’m always hoping that there’s some interest within the commercial world to embrace more of the fine art expression. So, but for myself, I also feel like a lot of stuff I do is quite commercial and don’t really fit in within the fine art. Kind of, well,

Matthew Dols 5:40
it’s a difficult thing. Like, I mean, I’ve been in the photo industry for 2530 years, and there’s always that sort of old standard of like, commercial photographers can’t or won’t do fine art or Fine Art photographers can’t or won’t do commercial work. Yeah. And I would imagine, things are changing. And so the so I’m sort of asking, like, Is it easy slash different to be a both commercial and fine art photographer? So sort of simultaneously? Do they overlap? Or, like, do you have to do them? differently?

Julia SH 6:16
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, saying, like, Oh, I only do this one thing, it’s a very privileged thing. I mean, maybe photographers really could make a living doing what they do, you know, 1020 years ago, but you know, I still have to pay my bills, I have to, you know, wear many hats. So I’m not gonna say like, well, I refuse to shoot this thing, because I still enjoy photography. So if I could have it my way, so to speak, then if somebody just wants to pay me a shit ton of money, just to make art prints all day long. I mean, sure, I would. But finding also that there are certain commercial photography opportunities, where they still want to incorporate the kind of fine art language to me as a very exciting, so I’m not going to rule that out. But I don’t really label myself, you know, like a fine art photographer, or, or commercial. I feel like I am pretty fluid between the two. But I think I gravitate to more to where the fine art and and if that was the thing, I could do full time, then awesome, but it is not at this point.

Matthew Dols 7:12
Yeah, it’s never you that can define what you are. It’s the other people that will define you, whether you like it or not.

Julia SH 7:19
Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, I’ve been called an activist a lot of the time to, which is a label I never gave myself, you know, I don’t see why I’m an activist just because I’m photographing women. But, you know,

Matthew Dols 7:33
please, elaborate,

Julia SH 7:34
yeah, I don’t necessarily feel I’m just photographing my own reality. So I don’t know why that has to translate into the idea of activism just for the subject matter. I’m more interested in textures and shapes of, you know, the, the female body so. And just because of that, and because of showing a lot of models, that might not be your kind of what I say like, it’s not really featured a lot in the mainstream media, it doesn’t mean that I’m taking a political activist stands, saying, I have to promote this body type or show it and gain visibility for it. For me, it’s purely selfish. Like, I think my subjects are beautiful, and amazing, and intriguing, and so many things. So I think of the body more as kind of an artist material.

Matthew Dols 8:27
I also work with the body and portraiture and things like this in my own work. And I get grief constantly for basically hiring professional beauty to stereotype stereotypically, beautiful models. And so they said, the fact that you are doing this sort of this other work that addresses it as an issue, and I get, as I said, I get grief about it quite frequently. So the sort of interested is like, why did you choose to go down that path? Like, sort of, I’m sure it’s something brought you to that. I mean, I can’t imagine who sort of woke up, you know, fully formed and said, Oh, I need to do this. Right. So it’s like, what brought you to it? And then sort of like, how is it? How are people reacting to it?

Julia SH 9:12
Yeah. Which also makes me curious to hear your opinion there. On photographing, quote, unquote, like, traditionally beautiful models as a man, do you get grief for that for being a man to all the time?

Matthew Dols 9:25
Yeah, I am. I’m not only a man, but I’m a white man and kineo probably Christian and American. Like, I get all kinds of green because I am all kinds of white privilege, American man. And yeah, I’ve been like, I mean, for my entire career, there’s always been sort of that issue of, you know, am I a pervert or whatever if I’m actually doing this for sort of legitimate purposes, like I feel like, every time I go out for a photoshoot, I’m always having to like, really say like, I’m not a pervert. Just want to take pictures. Beautiful. people doing beautiful things and beautiful clothes and beautiful locations. That’s what I do. And yeah, I get grief about it all the time, even from my own wife.

Julia SH 10:08
Yeah, I mean, this is ridiculous that I’m not considered a pervert. I mean, I’m doing the same thing but like I’m not a pervert, because I’m shooting bigger women. And I think that’s bizarre. Yeah, awesome. Sure, but I’m like a frickin female Terry Richardson. Like I’m I love my models, like I I get all like, super excited about my shoots, but I’m

Matthew Dols 10:28
really not really like Terry Richardson. I mean, he,

Julia SH 10:31
I don’t know, I never shot with him. But, you know, okay, I get to be creepy. Like I get I get permission to be creepy because I’m female shooting females. And and I get to be extra creepy because of shooting plus size models, because they’re not fetishized in the same way. So it’s, it’s, it’s a different kind of reality, which is weird.

Matthew Dols 10:49
It’s fascinating.

Julia SH 10:50
Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of discussions with the models I photograph and especially the plus size community are also kind of saying how bizarre it is that just because they’re appearing naked in a photograph, and, you know, they’re immediately labeled as activists, they can’t just be models, you know, they have to be something more, they can’t just be, you know, a person who want to have their photograph taken like they’re always. So I think there’s a lot of unwanted pressure for a lot of them to to, you know, engage in activism that they didn’t set out to do.

Matthew Dols 11:22
I wouldn’t agree with the word activism, I think that’s the wrong word. I don’t know what the right word would be. But that’s just when I think of activists, I think of like protesters and things like this

Julia SH 11:36
body activism or body positivity and that whole movement. So I think that there’s a desire to not always be connected with it. Like, I feel like so much of photographing anything that isn’t a stereotypically like, traditionally, quote, unquote, beautiful woman, and stop living labeled body positive. And that’s something that I think it’s a little problematic, too, even though it’s supposed to have a very positive connotation.

Matthew Dols 12:05
It’s got the word positive in it does it does.

Julia SH 12:09
Maybe we should just a body negative? I don’t know. I don’t know what that would be.

Matthew Dols 12:13
I think that’s called bullying.

Julia SH 12:15
I think that’s just called fashion.

Matthew Dols 12:16
It is tough. Yeah. I mean, what I mean, and that goes to sort of the thing like so you’re trying to do commercial work in, in your in Los Angeles, correct? Yes. Which is like the iconic city of all sort of facades and beauty and all this, the end trying to work with fashion agencies and fashion and new clients. And simultaneously working in this sort of, you know, more alternative body positive, I’m not sure what the right word is, I’m sure I’m putting my foot in my mouth on that. How does that sort of come together? Or doesn’t it stick come together?

Julia SH 12:54
I feel like the commercial work I’ve had here. So many times, I see my own stuff on their mood boards. And they’re like, you know, often it is my plus size subjects. And they’d be like, okay, we want this, but we want like 5% of it. We want this but what like a hot model? That’s like, Okay, great. That’s just

Matthew Dols 13:12
I actually use the words like hot model.

Julia SH 13:14
Yeah, I’ve heard it said before. Yeah. But I mean, this also, I guess, I can be a little hard to work with or something, I’m pretty uncompromising in what I feel like I want to put out there. And I think I sabotage a lot of opportunities for myself because of that, as well. I work for some modeling agencies before developing portfolios for younger models, and I felt like that was like the Pico may creepiness, I felt like I was not okay with it. Of sexualizing young women in the way that I did. And I can see, I mean, it’s just weird to put someone in that position who’s like, what, 16 years old and be like, hey, you’re gonna pretend you have this whole sexual repertoire in terms of expressions, you know, you’re, you’re always, you know, engaging with the camera, the cameras, like, you know, even though I’m a female is kind of the male gaze. So it’s, that’s who you’re talking to. And I wasn’t comfortable doing that at all. So it that the commercial photography, for me, it can be problematic, because of the kind of sexualized content that said, I enjoy photographing a lot of people who don’t feel empowered by their own sexuality and wanted to discover that through photography, and I feel like that’s different. Because it’s for them and the way they might not have seen themselves. So I do work with a lot of private clients who, you know, want to develop a portfolio for themselves, but I’d rather not do with 16 year old girls flying over from, you know, Ukraine, staying in a crowded apartment here in Los Angeles with another 20 girls, like, you know, sucking on a lollipop and pictures. I can’t I can’t do it.

Matthew Dols 14:49
I think you’d be very generous at 16 years old. I would assume they’re probably younger than that. Maybe.

Julia SH 14:56
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I tried to out Not child, I guess you would say child modeling. I mean when I was 1314 when I lived in Sweden assigned to an agency and I remember how bizarre I was coming in having a candid discussion about the amount of body hair I had, like having to show where I had birthmarks, and it was just a way I hadn’t related to my body before. So I think I remember how that made me feel. And I was like, I don’t think I ever want to make another woman feel that way. It wasn’t that it was. I didn’t think it was that weird back then. But in retrospect, I was like, Oh, you know, maybe I should like, you know, actually have sex with someone first before I start, like emoting this stuff in pictures. This is really weird.

Matthew Dols 15:43
Yes, but that’s not to encourage younger people to have sex. That’s it’s to say, Wait till later. Yeah, that’s what I mean. Okay, good. Just clarifying.

Julia SH 15:55
long as it gets triggered here. No, no, just seriously, it’s it’s just it was way too soon. All of that, you know,

Matthew Dols 16:02
what seems like these days, sexualization and all this is getting younger and younger and younger.

Julia SH 16:09
Oh, yeah, for sure. Like,

Matthew Dols 16:10
I remember, you know, back when I was a kid, which is a long time ago, that, you know, you had to like show ID before you could even buy a playboy or anything like this, like, I mean, so the, there was a certain age limitation put on access to things that were overtly sexualized, whereas now of course, is available. At all times. For for free.

Julia SH 16:37
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Absolutely. I don’t know what it would be like growing up right now. Like maybe I’m completely, like super old and uncool. But I feel like I get more conservative. The older I get of seeing this, especially young models of like about this time, this time, it’s time to do all that, you know, just all right now, you know, maybe wait until you’re 18 or something.

Matthew Dols 17:00
Yeah, don’t look at me. I started doing drugs at 14. So like, Who am I to judge?

Julia SH 17:05
Good for? You

Matthew Dols 17:07
know, yeah, everybody’s got to do their thing.

Julia SH 17:09
Right. So of course, you got to get out of your system for sure.

Matthew Dols 17:12
Yeah, unfortunately, didn’t get out of my system till I was 30.

Julia SH 17:15
Ah, yeah, but at least probably no adult gave it to you and was like, here do this thing.

Matthew Dols 17:21
Oh, no, it was kid on kid. Like it was pure peer pressure. Yeah. It was a girlfriend at the time introduced me to it now. girlfriend’s a bit generous on that. But yeah. Anyways, email. Yeah, well, I was just trying to think back through it. Like the first time I ever did drugs was when somebody at a party slipped acid in my drink.

Julia SH 17:44
Whoa, wow. I think that’s like how my first dog experience will be. I haven’t even done him yet. So I think if that’s I mean, I’m not putting out in the universe. It’s not what I want. Like I putting out the davida hustle of thing the drug thing and fine without but oh, that’s terrifying. It was maybe amazing. I don’t know. Maybe like, that’s the way to go. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 18:09
Boy, I mean, it was awkward. Because it was by my parents don’t listen to this. But the it was in a weekend we had a party. Saturday was the wedding of my cousin. And Sunday was going to be the funeral of my grandmother. And so between the parties on Saturday night is when I got slipped my first so yeah, so I went to my grandmother’s funeral tripping on acid so that was fascinating. We she sat up out of the coffin we had a conversation you talked with this Native American Indian that was in the cemetery who probably wasn’t actually in the cemetery you know, things like that. It was me it was good acid and it was great fun. No complaints

Julia SH 18:56
experience then.

Matthew Dols 18:57
Yeah, with no very hallucinogenic, like extremely elusive genic which is not as common these days with acid but again, I haven’t done it in a long time. I’ve been clean for for seven to 10 years now. Do things you move on to other things

Julia SH 19:15
correct. Photograph beautiful women and beautiful clothing doing beautiful things.

Matthew Dols 19:21
You try to but you know but even doing that is a really difficult living. Yeah. You know, a lot of people in photography a but also a lot of people in the rest of the world. They glamorize the idea of being like a fashion editorial beauty photographer, they think it’s like, this glamorous lifestyle of just like shoot, you know, all the shit that you see in movies and TV and it’s bullshit, right? Like, you know, 80 85% of your time you’re running around hustling, trying to get new clients or just doing paperwork or doing taxes or repairing some thing or whatever, that is not glamorous. Yeah. Yeah. Is that still true? Because I mean, I’m going off with my experiences.

Julia SH 20:13
Oh, no, there’s nothing glamorous about any of this stuff was it was there ever. I mean, maybe in the seven days with all the other ways to talk, but I think I missed all of that being born in the 80s.

Matthew Dols 20:25
Well, even back with George hurl, and Irving Penn and all that gang, but the movies and all that there was a certain glamour to it at a certain time. Yeah. Yeah, we’ve definitely missed the glamorous photography time.

Julia SH 20:38
I think maybe like no one on Earth. She might be glamorous, you know, I think her SATs.

Matthew Dols 20:43
she’s a she’s a fabulous. I’ve liked her since snaps her first book when it came out like, She’s great.

Julia SH 20:52
Yeah, yeah, I was seated next to her arm in a table away from her at the IP awards last year. And I was like, Oh, God, that that’s a life right there. That’s like a live photoshoot kind of hang out. Like, it was amazing. So many beautiful people at the table. And it’s like, transported in time.

Matthew Dols 21:13
And she is always beautifully dressed herself as well. Like, Oh, my God, her wardrobe must be astounding,

Julia SH 21:20
huh? Yeah. Yeah, she got it, right. But I don’t really know that many people, at least photographers that I feel like, have that air about them now where? I don’t know. And there’s something very spontaneous about the way she shoots too. And I don’t think she’d differentiate so much between them. I could be completely wrong, but like a professional commercial shoot as something that she does candidly, like she’s really president, everything that she does, like just seeing her taking snapshots of models at a fricking dinner is just as kind of fun and exciting as anything else she does. So she kind of lives and breathes that.

Matthew Dols 21:57
She does, but she was also a model herself. So there is that sort of, you know, knowing both sides of the industry that I’m sure helped her a little bit to theorize theoretically, I don’t know, I’ve never met the woman. But I would love to again, if she’s listening in shores, you know, somebody that knows her. I would love to have her as a guest.

Julia SH 22:15
Okay.

Matthew Dols 22:18
So we now have to David Hasselhoff Ellen von unwerth. We’re good.

Julia SH 22:22
Okay, putting it out there.

Matthew Dols 22:24
Yeah, fair enough. So, honest. Another side note, because you said you have multiple names you also multiple lives basically as a sumo wrestler, as a model, it seems at some point as a photographer, but you also have a partnership with doing creative work with your I think it’s called i’m pronouncing it shad blur.

Julia SH 22:45
Oh, that’s pretty good. That would be awesome. I I’ve never thought about it that way. But it probably is sh Sadler is what we go. Right. Yeah, for sure. That is a creative partnership I have with a cinematographer called Nick Sadler, who happened to be the first person I ever met in Los Angeles. And he also works as a software designer and really comes more from the commercial world. So I think the stuff I do with him might be in terms of visual language, leaning more toward the kind of commercial aspect, but we do very, very different work. My personal work is usually maybe not as intentionally humorous. As the stuff we do, and he is more into he’ll probably slap me for saying that, but I feel like more traditional portraiture maybe and he thinks I’m all weird and shit. So it’s a nice, it’s a nice place to meet up to kind of have like a creative dialogue that I wouldn’t have otherwise. So he brings a lot to the table from his background and, and hopefully he’ll get something out of working with me. Who knows.

Matthew Dols 23:55
I’m fascinated by the fact that you’re the weird one in the in the duo. Traditionally, the man is more the weird one. And

Julia SH 24:03
I’m in His Word in his own ways. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. But he’s a bit more technical than I am. That’s for sure. He’s got a lot more technical knowledge. And I like to sit and edit and do all the post production stuff and Yeah, tell them to go away. I do this now. Yeah, no, it’s lovely.

Matthew Dols 24:26
All right. One thing I didn’t ask you about actually that I like to know about people as a How did you become a creative person so your parents some schooling, some life experiences like what led you down the path to even find photography at all?

Julia SH 24:43
I grew up with my dad would never say is creative, but he’s a sound engineer. I think he’s totally super creative. And my mom has dabble in everything from music and acting and painting. God knows what else They’re running. While I think they’re retiring now, but they’ve been running like a vintage recording studio in Stockholm, ever since I was born. And I was always really encouraged to try everything minus maybe like heavy drugs, but so I tried, you know, everything from pottery and piano horse riding, like Kung Fu, you name it, like I did it all. But it really snowed in our theater. That was kind of my thing. And my mom used to call me the little dictator, and a very specific dictator to I’m just not gonna say his name, because it’s an awful one, you can probably figure out who it is. Because I just love bossing her bossing over people, apparently. So I started doing little place in school and after school, like I was directing things, and also playing like all the lead roles, but I would get people into a play kind of like extra walk, like a walk on parts. So I would just like change clothes and speak to myself, and you know, like a real kind of narcissistic child. Like, I’m so embarrassed about all that, because there’s videos up at night, I’m not okay with that. It’s like I was I was an awful kid. But I still am to a certain extent, but I think theater was kind of my main thing. And in Sweden, you get to decide when you’re 15, like how you do junior high, because 40% of your curriculum is going to be made up of a subject of your choice. And I pick theater. And I’ve realized early on that I had a problem with authority. And I felt that the acting thing maybe wasn’t really in the stars. So just to kind of get me to pass school, some of the teachers suggested like, oh, why don’t you direct a play instead. And that kind of became the starting point for me. And I was like, this is amazing, I should be making films. So I was making a lot of short films and using my time in school that way. And at the end of this, it’s like a bizarre story. But it’s true. I really wanted to go and study in the States, but it was too expensive. And I applied to centrosome Martin School of Fine Art in London, and some other ones there as well, thinking that they’re fine arts program, because it did say film, video and performance meant that it was just a traditional film school because that’s what I wanted to do. So I got in on this ba thing, and I was like, came to school and was in complete shock. First of all, like, barely spoke English, but like, we have to present our work. And I was showing like some little, you know, two minute experimental movie I made and I stood next to this woman who had apparently blown like 10 different guys and Like Put, you know, the semen in little Dixie cups and was like, drinking them as a performance. And I’m like, What the heck is going on? Like, where am I? And there was another woman who was deciding that her piece to show was her just like squirting water through her private parts. And in a way, I was like, this is like a freaking freak show. But this is awesome. I can’t believe I’m here. I’m so lucky. Like, I had no idea. So Fine. Art just ended up being like the best place for me because it was it just permitted everything. So there was no rules, no nothing. So I kind of I didn’t desert the film. I mean, I still made film in fine art school, about my subject matter kind of shifted, then I became really interested in in performance and performativity in an authentic expression into fiction movies. I mean, what have you. So I staged a lot of films with like Extreme Rules and obstructions, always using actors shooting a lot of content where like, I would kidnap actors who knew that they were going to be part of some movie I was making, but they will be like, abducted from the street and brought to a completely pitch black space where they never met before and performed this like highly sexual kind of play, and never see each other. And then, you know, so it, it was great. It was awesome. So it, I think, you know, I probably would have continued with the film stuff at that. I’ve been easier and not me being dependent on so many people. So photography was kind of it was a way for me to continue staying creative without waiting for permission to do work.

Matthew Dols 29:41
I totally get it. Yeah. I mean, we’re basically creating film stills more or less one. photographs, like there’s always a story of what happened before and what will happen after but this is you’re just sort of freezing that one moment in time.

Julia SH 30:00
Yeah, for sure. So that’s how I probably, I would say, that’s how I approach it now as well, especially in terms of expression, like I’ve been interested in these very kind of neutral expressions on my models to have, like, how do I photograph something where somebody is completely devoid of the idea of their own sexuality, like, how do I find a place where they’re not suggesting anything, but kind of simply existing? And I think that’s, that’s kind of where I’m at with my work right now. And that’s what I really enjoy photographing, at least in the context of the nudes that I do. Like, that’s become a big thing for me that I’m very interested in pursuing, like, how do I remove all this kind of sexual idea of this body? I mean, I come from a place where, you know, we’re very pragmatic about nudity. So I have a surprise moving to the states and also England, you know, how, how sexualized the body is?

Matthew Dols 31:06
Well, it’s very sexualized, and you’re not supposed to show much of it. Like, it’s sort of a bit of a contradiction.

Julia SH 31:15
Yeah, absolutely. And at the same time, where people are so obsessed with fashion here, that really just tells you where to look at the body, too. So it’s, like, I feel like a lot of time, the more clothes we put on, like, the more attention we kind of direct toward it as well, and how we want to be seen and, and what we want to show off and what we want to hide. So yeah, it’s interesting. I think about that a lot when I traveled to the Middle East to have, how very sexualized the body is there to, you know, with the extreme cover up? I don’t know, it’s like a, it’s interesting. You know, sometimes the hidden body is a lot more sexualized than the naked

Matthew Dols 31:53
one. Oh, my God, when in the Middle East, the women put so much effort on their face, because it’s the only thing they can really express themselves with, that they put they go so outrageous with their hair and makeup washing, not hair, sorry, makeup, too, because it’s their only form of expression. I mean, I live I was living in Abu Dhabi, and I was teaching Muslim women art. So yeah, I got to know many of them. And then, you know, the ones I was teaching were not too conservative as a general whole. So they actually wore their own clothes and opened up their biases during the day and things like that. So like it wasn’t that bad. But yeah, they’re the their faces, sometimes as much as little as their eyes, their handbags. And their shoes, like those are of the utmost importance, because they’re the only things they can show are the only ways they can express themselves.

Julia SH 32:53
Yeah, for sure.

Matthew Dols 32:55
One, and now their phone covers as well.

Julia SH 32:57
Oh, yeah. I remember last time I was there, I noticed a lot of like, beautiful sleep work, too.

Matthew Dols 33:03
It’s becoming more popular. I

Julia SH 33:04
think so. Yeah. Something I noticed.

Matthew Dols 33:07
What were you doing in the Middle East?

Julia SH 33:10
I love the Middle East. I was writing it last time I was in Jordan. And I went horseback riding. They’re

Matthew Dols 33:18
incredibly Jordan is very progressive.

Julia SH 33:20
Progressive. Yeah. And then I went to Iran two years ago, which was really interesting.

Matthew Dols 33:26
Not very progressive. I assume I’ve never been there.

Julia SH 33:29
I would say the younger generation is is. I mean, it was really interesting, because I got to hang out with a lot of university students. I wish I could have hung out more with them. But I was busy just like puking for most of my trip and being, you know, quarantined to my hotel room with severe food poisoning and dehydration. But from the few days I was able to be outdoors, and actually have genuine conversations. I do think that there’s a very interesting kind of generational gap there. But I wish I would have spent more time to go back.

Matthew Dols 34:04
It’s still there.

Julia SH 34:05
Yeah, you’re already there. I know I can’t go anywhere now though. But soon, hopefully.

Matthew Dols 34:12
Yeah. I noticed that you’re represented by an agency as a photographer. Now, are you represented as a commercial photographer or a fine art photographer? Second part, wait a second part to that question. Do you have a gallery that represents your fine art? If that’s not the same?

Julia SH 34:30
Not the same? There is a gentleman Eric Dover who is my agent who I would say like most of the repertoire of his photographers are photographers, who are fine art photographers who also branch out and do commercial work. So he will get kind of more creative commercial gigs that might be looking for a photographer a little bit more experimental than usual repertoire. So he does represent Fine Art artists who work in photography. But also, I guess, photographers who would also call themselves commercial, but might have more of a fine art language?

Matthew Dols 35:07
And then that sort of leading to the question. So like, do you do exhibitions of your fine art?

Julia SH 35:12
Most of the stuff I’ve done has been in the context of group exhibitions or photography award exhibitions, I haven’t had a solo exhibition would love to putting out there in the universe. So mainly,

Matthew Dols 35:27
no, no, you have to be proactive on that, that people are just not looking to give that wave.

Julia SH 35:34
Yeah, no, I understand that to know. So usually, I grew up stuff, I don’t even know where people have the time to, like, really go out and advocate for themselves while making work. And then, you know, making food, picking up their kids, like I don’t even know, like, I don’t know.

Matthew Dols 35:53
But that’s sort of what I’m leading to down the path of questions here, which is sort of like so like, how do you make a living doing all this stuff? So like you’re working for, you have a representative for you as an artist, which also, by the way, I wanted to know, how did you get representation? because keep in mind, I’m obviously older than you. I’m 46. I will be 47 soon, but 46. And the idea of like, photographer, agents was not really around when I started my career, and they’ve become much more prevalent. So like, how do you even how did you What was your experience of how to get an agent as a photographer,

Julia SH 36:34
I actually reached out myself, because I thought, what he the people that he was representing is like, kind of where I want to take my own work. And I mean, it was just really lucky that there was a match, I just felt for a long time that this still advocating for yourself, and to suggest and defend your rates. And all this stuff is difficult, you know, because you end up doing a lot of, you know, favors for your friends, you end up, you know, making deals for people, and I just don’t want to be the person doing that stuff. In an ideal world, like I could focus on actually making the work, not just the 98% of all the bullshit that goes around, you know, being your own freaking pa doing this doing that, like sometimes I would love to show up to work. That’d be amazing. But it you know, I understand that this is there’s a very lucky few that can do that. And most of them have also been doing that for a long time. And I don’t think that they’re there because of a photographic record per se, because they might just have been around long enough to have that. Luxury, but I feel like that’s, for me the logical next step, at least now. Because, yeah, I don’t I don’t want to deal with that stuff. And I, you know, I have some working relationships with some publications, etc. But it’s your kind of low on the totem pole trying to say like, Okay, well, when is this thing I’ve done for you? And when is it coming out? And they’ll sit on it for six months? And then suddenly, they’re like, Oh, yeah, deciding we’re not going to run it. Because now the makeup that we were using in this thing is kind of last year’s, you know, whatever. And I’m like, What do I take it now that like, I’ve spent all this time waiting for you to publish this thing. And it could be things that they commission, it could be things that you submit, but I feel like if you have some sort of representation, that that process might be maybe a little bit more straightforward and quicker, because they’re being held accountable. But I feel like there’s so especially publications out there that they’ll just sit on your work and, you know, not communicate or you send it in and they start ghosting you and it’s I think it’s just rude. But there’s, you know, I guess that there’s also so many photographers working with this, people to that they’re just not enough time in the day for them to reach out to everybody either. But it’s, I don’t not really sure what the answer is to that. But I you

Matthew Dols 39:03
know, I’m all for it. I love the idea of having somebody represents us, as creative people. I mean, traditionally, in the fine art world, it was, you know, a gallerist would be the person who did that. And so the idea that in the commercial photography industry, that there’s now people basically that can do that because we as creative people did not get into the business of being creative, to do the business we got into to be creative, like that’s our strength. And so like the idea of being able to, you know, give some money to somebody and they do all the business stuff for you. Rock on all about it.

Julia SH 39:40
Yes, yes, please. All sounds so disorganized. I don’t even have a date is when I wake up like that. I think that’s the thing for a lot of artists too. Like we I think a lot of artists have a kind of a different functioning brain to that it doesn’t come that you know, natural to us to have have that sort of analytical mind and have a strategy you know, like I’m highly emotional and I bad mood will like screw up my day but I think if you’re an agent like that can’t be and stand in your way, so I need someone like that. So I can be at you know, it’s a spacey as I am and use that to my advantage.

Matthew Dols 40:24
Fair enough now in LA I mean, or do you have like a full time studio? Do you have a place you rent? I would imagine rent not cheap there.

Julia SH 40:32
No, I share a photographic studio with my partner Nick Southam, which is based out of his residence in Hollywood. And then I rent a photo studio larger one. So when I have things that require more than one model, and otherwise, I shoot from home, and I have a little home studio here.

Matthew Dols 40:52
Okay, actually, that brings up another question, you brought up rental, I have this position that I don’t own. And I actually at this exact moment, I’m also a photographer. By the way, I didn’t know if I ever mentioned that. But I don’t own any photo equipment, I rent it when I need it. Because the technology just keeps advancing so quickly. And they get better and better and better. And it just, I see no reason to purchase because I don’t shoot, I don’t shoot very often. So I’m not commercial and all that. But I would imagine even in the commercial industry, like it would be so smart just to rent the equipment and then just basically charge the client for the rent daily rental of the stuff instead of owning so like do you own equipment?

Julia SH 41:35
Oh, 100% I think if I and the reason being that if there’s a gig that calls for equipment other than my own, which will probably be most commercial things, then great, then the client can pay for it. But in terms of my personal work, I mean, I I don’t see a reason to to be intimidated by how technology progresses as fast as it does. Because the way we view photography has radically changed as well, like I recognize the most of my photography, you’ve seen on a computer screen at 72 DPI, you know, with a pixel length of 1080. Maybe so no saying that, that is the you know, that’s not how I reached my work. And obviously, you know, my files are large and good and can be printed really large. But most of my work will never be printed on a gigantic billboard requiring like, one gigabyte file size from a Fuji GFX camera like I worked on it. But But the fact is like, why would I? Why would I choose a format that is so high resolution two and just clogs up on my hard drives and making it more expensive for me to make work? When I can happily do this? Am I you know, canon,

Matthew Dols 42:51
we all want to shoot with as high resolution as possible, because we’re all we all have faith that someday we will be able to print that the way we want it.

Julia SH 43:04
Yeah, but I also feel like a lot of the really, really high rest stuff now is not really all that flattering or you know, when me mini DV came onto the market like many years ago with film people were like, We can’t wash this this looks too real. Like it hurts my eyes like this is not cinematic, you know, and I can feel the same way now sitting there retouching you know, files from the Fuji effects, which is an incredible camera and it’s so much fun, but it’s not for everything. I don’t feel like you know doing retouching on that is going to give me nicer skin tones or anything else that I would get from something a third of the resolution. So I think it all depends also if you’re what you’re photographing, of course and how you envision your work, but I rarely print anything that’s you know, larger than 45 by 30 inches. So like that’s kind of my go to.

Matthew Dols 44:08
I may owe myself I like really like large print. Let’s add a zero. Yeah, yeah, I like large I look you know, so like, I don’t even know inches anymore. I’ve been living in Europe for so long. 42 inches wide. 68 inches tall. That’s that’s sort of my format that I love so so I mean, yeah, you’re right. There’s no reason to shoot bigger than that at the moment. But yeah, we all want that like even when I was a kid I used to shoot four by five and then I didn’t print them the scale that was you know, the four by five was necessary but like, but God the quality it just looks good when you’re working on it though.

Julia SH 44:52
Yeah, but then something else is gonna come out it’s going to be bigger and better and like this, this constant like do I always have to stay with This you know, or am I becoming too obsessed with the the pixel ratio or quality or resolution when I instead of focusing on my subject and what is I’m trying to do? What story Am I telling, like? Does this story require this image to be humongous?

Matthew Dols 45:17
Oh, yeah, don’t get me wrong, I shot with a four by five for 15 years, until I started to do some commercial work. And it was during when digital had come out. And so of course, I had to get a digital camera to do the commercial work. They wouldn’t wait for my four by fives.

Julia SH 45:33
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 45:34
So okay, so let’s get like super techie. So like, what do you shoot with these days?

Julia SH 45:39
canon five D Mark to a no no my to mark for for the most part, like for most of my fine art stuff, mainly because I’m terrible at learning new things. Like unless I have a problem, I’m not going to learn it. So I see, I stick with what I know, I alternate, and I go back and forth in between Lightroom and Photoshop, Photoshop being more important to me than Lightroom. But Lightroom is new for me. But I see how it’s great to do your initial grading in there before importing it. So it does save me a lot of time now. I would say my post production I call it post production probably because I come from video. I don’t know if people even say post production but the retouching all that stuff. The retouching sounds to me like it’s only cosmetic for me, I think of the whole image is it’s kind of like a film still. And I can

Matthew Dols 46:33
I call it post production anything after the shoot is different to me defined post production. Yeah,

Julia SH 46:38
so that that process for me is a lot longer usually than, than the shoot itself a lot of time I consider the shoot a place for me to sort of collect my artists material, and then I get to paint. So my happy place is really in front of the computer. And I’m pretty like layer heavy. Like I do a lot of adjustment layers and and I sit there with my Wacom tablet, drinking coffee being very happy.

Matthew Dols 47:04
Okay, wait, I have a question. Because I’ve had this conversation with other photographers. In the old days film, like you had to go out and you bought your film before you showed up for the shoot, and you only had you know, however much film you had on hand for your shot. So photographers were a little bit more sort of thoughtful before they clicked the shutter because they were limited. However, now there’s digital. And of course, you could just take 10s of 1000s of photos and then go back later and choose the best one. So do you shoot a lot? And then try and find a great one? Or are you a bit more sort of slow and precise with your posing and everything in the shooting process?

Julia SH 47:47
Oh, I’m super quick. I need to be super quick. I feel like I feel like the best expressions I get at least from my subjects are ones where we might be having a casual conversation I’m catching up on where I feel like the first five minutes of me doing anything is usually the most interesting shots I get in terms of expression and I only ever pick I can I can always be okay with like a minor little screw up of like, Oh yeah, the hair wasn’t perfect here or this or that. Like, if I get the expression that I want, then the rest doesn’t matter. And I know when I get it like I I know when I have it and then I don’t really go and push because I feel like that’s it’s not necessary. I like the kind of immediacy of it. So doesn’t say that I don’t shoot a lot of frames, but I don’t think I think the longer I’ve been doing this, the less I shoot. So I probably average maybe between 250 300 shots per shoot, which is still is a lot you know, if you think about film, it’s still a lot. Yeah, I don’t tether or anything like that, either. I always feel like models love to like look at themselves and wonder what’s going on. Like I I want to have that interaction just between me and my subject and make you feel quite intimate and relaxed. And then I usually go through just on my camera. And if I see what I want to say, then I’m like,

Matthew Dols 49:14
I hate showing the models when I refuse because they get super self conscious and they get more concerned and all these things that you don’t want from a model. You want them to be relaxed and casual. And I I hate it when they asked to look at the photos. I was just like, yeah, here they go. Like flip through them really fast. They can’t even see him.

Julia SH 49:36
It doesn’t really work in your favor most of the time. And I think maybe if you’re working with us, you know, professional model has been doing this forever. It’s one thing but most of my subjects are not professional. So they are often very highly critical of themselves or they you know, it’s like when I was working in film too and doing Film Editing that a lot of the producers whoever would come in into the Editing Bay would like, not understand the process. So for you to tell them like, Oh, yeah, this thing will have a sound effect here and this, they don’t get it. They’re like, why is there no sound there? And I’m like, Yeah, because it’s not put in yet. It’s a whole composition as a whole is the larger vision. And this this is, this is a raw file. And I mean, some people shoot with intention of like, this is the photograph I’m taking, but my process is not like that. So my process, you know, I might take a photo that gets takes me 10 minutes to photograph, but I might sit with it for two days. So the vision is just very different.

Matthew Dols 50:35
It is interesting, people seem to want to be more involved in the photographic process, like I come from the school of thought of like, I’m the creative person, I’m the artist, but let’s say and I so I’ll take my picture, I’ll go back, I’ll sit in the darkroom or Photoshop or Lightroom, or whatever, and I do all the work. And then I will present you with the finished work. You nobody else needs to be involved in that. That’s my process. Yeah. Like they do they want to see they do. They’re the very nosy.

Julia SH 51:06
But do you think maybe that has to do with also social media a lot that people are so now used to thinking of themselves as a brand or an image, like they have a very specific way they want to be portrayed. And they’re used to taking a lot of selfies to like they have a certain angle, they want to replicate. And I really want to get away from all of that, because I think it’s really crippling the idea for me, I find it utterly fascinating when people want to take my picture. And I take great delight in seeing how what like a monster I can look like by someone who photographs me and have a great, I can look from some other people like it’s just, it’s fascinating how someone can view you. And if you’re open to maybe taking that risk of saying, Okay, well I’ve taken like 50,000 selfies, now I’m actually just gonna let go and had this person photograph me in a different way. So I might see something new about myself, it’s also kind of quite exciting. So but I would imagine that it has a lot to do with, with that, and how people want to be involved now too, and people are very protective of their image. Like that’s, that’s, I find it kind of bizarre to like I this whole selfie culture and instagramming that wasn’t, I mean, it is so new to, you know, that. I don’t know, also know, like, who is the audience for all this work for all the selfies, you know, they all look the same? Like, when do you decide like this is this is a good picture of me. And when they all look the same? Like, do you go back selfies, like three years ago on your Instagram feed me and like, this one’s not so good anymore? Like Where? What? What is a good selfie? Like, this is something I also, as a project, I would love to do at some point, I’m very fascinated in people’s idea how they look, and also how I think they look.

Matthew Dols 52:53
I’m sure some algorithm exists that would be able to explain to you how people like to project themselves in selfies.

Julia SH 53:03
Oh, yeah. I mean, you can see how that’s kind of changing too. And, absolutely, I mean, there’s people now going and have surgery to look like their own selfies, you know, because your camera distorts your facial features so much that you know, for you to replicate that look and look like your own Instagram self, you need some surgical help.

Matthew Dols 53:25
I remember when those cameras first got created on the phone, and I was and I kept remembered telling all my students I’m like, it is the most unflattering camera to do a selfie. Because it’s a super wide angle lens with very low, well, low control and very little control over it, but but it’s that super wide angle lens, it distorts and make your nose bigger and your forehead squish back. It’s a horrible camera lens, particularly to take a selfie with Yeah,

Julia SH 53:58
and I see so many young people now just having so much, you know, surgical stuff done to them. And I think about you know, when you had this you are in

Matthew Dols 54:09
LA

Julia SH 54:10
LA but you know, I see it a lot everywhere else. I saw a lot of Iran by the way a lot, but it’s like a status thing that it means you have money. And a man will like you know, walk around with a tape nose sometimes to show that they have the money to pay for surgery for their lady livers are but I mean now seeing so many people having all these things done to them I keep thinking about you know, when this kind of Pamela Anderson look was a thing, you know, that kind of surgery in the 90s. And we see those women having grown up now like being I don’t know, how old would they be now don’t ask my my math is completely off. But you know,

Matthew Dols 54:48
they would they would be in their early 50s, early 50s.

Julia SH 54:50
Right. And it’s almost like a quote unquote, a bit of a dated look like it’s a very specific look. And I keep thinking about those women now who might be Like 1818 to 22 years old, like, how are they going to look at 30 years from now they were going to look the same, but like, they’re going to be like Instagram of whatever year, you know, like, how is that any different?

Matthew Dols 55:11
Yeah, the what I keep noticing is is the desire for the large. But this is a very popular thing right now. I mean, they’re, they’re not fat, they’re just large, shapely. And I just keep thinking like, all you have to do is get pregnant, you’ll get that. I mean, I’m just imagining those young ladies in 10 years, when they do then have children that they’re going to be much larger than that. And they’re not going to be happy with that at all. Like, I mean, I feel like there’s so much bad body dysmorphic issues like, and then, of course, are these weird trends that are like encouraging people to look like certain things. And I mean, they’ve always existed, this is nothing new, but they’re just much faster, and they’re more more prevalent. They’re like, when I was a kid, once a month, a magazine would come that would give you some impression of like, what the standards of beauty are in the world. But now it’s literally like every couple seconds, you see another image that gives you another standard of beauty. And then there’s another YouTube video out or whatever that’s is is inundating their little brains with too much.

Julia SH 56:26
Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn’t know if I have kids. Now what I would tell them, you know,

Matthew Dols 56:32
I was gonna say, I wouldn’t make sure the little brain was about children. Not that women have little brains. I just want to be clear.

Julia SH 56:39
lizard brain. I just used to think that’s like a male genital but Okay, all right.

Matthew Dols 56:43
There is that as well. I’m perfectly Yes, we have the the big brain and the little brain, I understand. But yeah, I did not in any way mean that against women that was about small children, their brains being smaller. So just keep in mind, this goes worldwide, I want to you know, I just want to make sure I don’t cause some problem. Anyway, the work that that I first became aware of you from was your work with sh Adler, and what you did the faces in the cellophane wrapping and all this kind of stuff. So like, what brought that work on? What was that all meant to be about?

Julia SH 57:26
The fresh meat shoot we did was I was feeling very tired of the way beauty was being portrayed in mainstream media. And I thought of like, how far do we go to like, preserve this idea of, of not just beauty, but self image? And what are we prepared to do for it, and I was thinking a lot about, you know, this whole Instagram culture to where, you know, you’re going out having surgery to basically look like your avatar. It’s completely absurd. And I mean, if if these extreme things, or inventions were out in the market, like would people gravitate toward them and actually utilize them? People are using so many face filters now. So basically, you are treating yourself kind of like a piece of paper. So those were the discussions that we had, and we were like, Oh, this might be kind of fun if we actually literally make, you know, meet faces that are pre packaged. So it was a tongue in cheek thing. It wasn’t, you know, I think I appreciate that it got them exposure it did for me was just feeling kind of, you know, disgusted about what was out there and wanting to do something about it. But But other than that, it wasn’t like we sat down for a long time was like, let’s tell this story, you know, but it but the Instagram culture, however really, it really resonated with them. And they started really kind of sharing this. So it when, I guess enviroments What you say?

Matthew Dols 58:56
It is yes,

Julia SH 58:58
much more than I ever thought possible. And I thought it was interesting that this thing out of all the things we’ve done, which was kind of a kind of a rather quick project was the one that got all this tension. And it was rejected by the magazine’s that commissioned it. So we were very happy that it at least got out there. Got a little bit of recognition.

Matthew Dols 59:23
Okay, a little side note with that, actually, also, you do work a lot, a lot of work with nudity. So how, what’s your feelings about the What do they call it community standards that make it so that you can show certain body parts?

Julia SH 59:43
Oh, I mean, it’s just observed what we can look at. I mean, you can you’re allowed to show a fricking ravished corpse on Instagram, but if you’re showing a nipple, like God forbid, and I think it’s extremely toxic, because everything else Right that if you want to find hard core, you know porn, you can find on the same device you’re browsing Instagram on. Like, there’s nothing to me that says like Instagram or Facebook or all this stuff you should be different than like, you’re not. You can still just google something and you see it. So how is it different than you going out? Are you on Instagram to find something? And I, I understand there’s a thing. You know, where maybe hardcore porn doesn’t have a place maybe on Instagram or Twitter? Yeah, Twitter. Yeah, they can do they can do it. Yeah. But I mean, on Instagram, I get it. But. But the idea of censoring something. censoring art, to me is completely absurd, especially since we look at the beginning of time and the way we portrayed things that you go to church and people are naked in the ceiling. I mean, come on, come on.

Matthew Dols 1:00:56
I saw just the other day on Instagram, drawings of vaginas. That was perfectly like full spread eagle drawings of vaginas. perfectly legal, legitimate, appropriate, because it was a drawing, not a photograph. That I mean, like, first of all, I have a problem with the whole fact that they say community standards, which is not mine. Now, I don’t know where they get these standards, because that’s not the way I would want it. But but the fact that you could do a drawing a painting, an illustration, a sculpture, and be as nude and as blunt and forthcoming as you want. But if it’s a photograph of a real person, nude that breaks their standards, what are these standards that allow for certain mediums? and not others? Absolutely.

Julia SH 1:01:55
I wonder that too. And I’m in it. I think they have some sort of image recognition, software, whatever they use to even detect, let’s say nipples, or whatever. Like, I feel it’s absurd that I can now blur out by pixelated nipple and basically saying, like, Look, there’s a nipple here. Like, that’s what I feel like I’m doing like, I’m really drawing attention to it. And it’s hard, because Instagram is a really good platform for me to show my work and engage with my audience and kind of finding out who they are. But at the same time, I can never really show my work the way I want to present it. So it’s difficult because right now I’m doing a series that is very, like, let’s just say to just naked people. And it’s, it looks like a kind of medical textbook, kind of naked, it’s nothing stage. It’s just like, here’s a naked body. And I’m struggling to find platforms for this, like, I really want to show this work. And I also feel like it’s important work for especially younger women. And there’s a lot of younger women follow me on Instagram. So there’s something I like to share. But there’s no platform format. So so me actually doing ironically, a body positive project that I actually call body positive, cannot come across as body positive, because I have to block out everything that I’m trying to show to say that this is normal. And I’m basically saying was normal by can’t show it. So where do I put it? I don’t know. Like, I’m trying to find out, like, Where can I present this work and still connect with an audience that isn’t through social media for a project like this, but it’s also a very common social media specific thing where that’s what I want to exist. That’s where I think it would do most good. So it’s, it’s completely bizarre. I don’t have an answer. I think it’s absolutely ridiculous.

Matthew Dols 1:03:51
Oh, I do as well, I’m on your side, I don’t understand. And

Julia SH 1:03:54
at the same time, I have forgotten to censor some photographs on my feed of plus size women. And for some reason, they don’t care. But if it’s, you know, a smaller size body that can be viewed as sexual lized by you know, their standards, and that’s a problem.

Matthew Dols 1:04:18
Plus Size women can be and are as sexual, but

Julia SH 1:04:22
Instagram doesn’t think so. Apparently.

Matthew Dols 1:04:25
Agreed. They do not. Yes, I know. All right. So let’s let’s last question for you. You do a lot of work about sort of this positive body positivity and sort of, you know, all other ways of addressing media and beauty and all this kind of stuff. What could a potential solution to these problems be?

Julia SH 1:04:50
Personally, I wouldn’t call it a solution but I’d like to just see more of a pragmatic view of annuity when it comes to art and any sort of Mainstream media, I do feel that it’s I don’t know, if like, specifically addressing the fact what we’re doing all the time is also that great. Like, I feel like it should just be a common place rather than pointing it out, like, Look, here’s this brave woman taking off her clothes, I’m like, don’t do that, like, just, it’s just a body, like if we, if we can just get to this, you know, point of realizing is a vessel that can be done men for a lot of other things as well, you know, it’s something we all have like a flesh suit, you know, it, it’s pretty extraordinary in so many other ways. And there’s so many other ways we can celebrate, rather than whether it has sexual currency or not, if we didn’t have so. So I can’t tell you what I think this solution is more than we just being, we allow him to see this content. Like I think removing of community guidelines is a good start of actually being able to view art the way it’s supposed to be. And, and I really appreciate like the response I’ve heard, especially from the process, community, women are feeling that they do feel some visibility now in my subjects of saying, okay, I, it’s nice, because I have a body like that. And I usually only get to sit in the context of somebody addressing it, as you know, this is a, you know, a fat body or it’s, it’s a different body or, you know, drawing so much attention to what it is and why it’s being shown. It’s not just being shown because it’s being shown. So, at least for myself, I try and just show different bodies, and I just personally think statically I just love photographing larger women. So I’ll keep on doing that for a while.

Matthew Dols 1:06:47
Fair enough. I mean, where do you think this comes from? Because like, you got to understand I grew up in Washington, DC, and my father’s a priest, Reverend, whatever word you want put to it. So like, is this debt? Is this political? Is this religious? Like, where does this even come from? Because I’ve lived in the United States, the Middle East and Europe. And so they there are very different cultural perceptions and ways to address the the any form that is the human form. So why is it that in certain places, it’s shamed and hidden, regardless of its size, or anything like that? And whereas others, it’s very open and free and sort of not even an issue?

Julia SH 1:07:39
Well, I can only speak for where I come from. It’s just, I mean, even when I went to high school, we had cold showers, men and women, and this was in Sweden. Yes. So for me, I was just shocked when I, you know, moved abroad. I was like, Wow, it’s not like that over here. And I realized me being very physical with people, which I’ve always grown up being very, you know, Huggy touchy. feely was translated into advances or made people very uncomfortable.

Matthew Dols 1:08:11
And I felt

Julia SH 1:08:13
I had to start censoring myself. So definitely, that was a big cultural shift for me of like, Okay, well, I’m being translated. This is being translated in a very different way than I intended to be like, I’m just being friendly, but I guess I’m being very creepy now. or making people uncomfortable, which I don’t want to be or or maybe you do, maybe I do kind of but you know, it’s, I can at least I mean, I really appreciate that I had that upbringing where I didn’t have any sort of also no sexual shame. I mean, maybe it would have been more exciting to be like completely sexual repressed I don’t know but there’s something to be said about that too, I think but you know, in terms of equality and all those things that keep you You’ve also got to be exposed to bodies and see them and see what they look like so they don’t hold that much charge and you know, it goes for men and women you know when you when you are not being able to see anything Your mind will make up even crazier shit. So just being able to to see people of all ages and shapes and everything that we can’t just say like okay, well only the only like really hot skinny chicks get to be nude. Like we can’t do that. We got it. We got to show a broader range of things. And that’s

Matthew Dols 1:09:31
why I appreciate hot skinny guys also.

Julia SH 1:09:34
Yes, I just got to speak from my own experience. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:09:39
I mean, I mean, I did some time I did a workshop with john Sturges at his montolivo at the his naturalist community and I had to go and participate in the naturalist community by being a naturalist myself while doing the workshop. And he was Amazing, the people I met at that naturals community were shocking to me at the time because they mean they be I had never experienced something like that before. But I tell you, I spent seven days at a naturalist community. And I would absolutely take my children to a naturalist community on a regular basis because there is something amazing about it. Because people of all shapes and sizes and ages and physiques and all this kind of stuff, just, they it’s just, they just live, and they don’t seem to judge, they’re not critical in the ways that the majority of the people in the world are. And it was really eye opening.

Julia SH 1:10:41
I mean, I feel like a shooting nude news, in general is so gratifying for me too, because I always get to hear a story I wouldn’t hear from, you know, a fashion model, you know,

Matthew Dols 1:10:55
or whatever else.

Julia SH 1:10:56
Like I get to hear stories and and people carry around, like so much of a story, or sometimes it’s any from shame and pain and joy, like there’s so much going on, and having those conversations with my models. I mean, it just comes out by them being nude in front of a camera, because suddenly, like they have all this attention. They’re not just nude by themselves in this private place, but they have a spectator. So then, you know, I get to hear a lot because they have to go through a lot and go through, you know, like, Oh my god, I don’t know how to handle myself, I don’t know how my body looks or, and hearing also other women’s insecurities makes me feel more human and more okay with myself and also less hard on myself. Because I look at all these women, I shoot and I find them so beautiful. Doesn’t matter who I put in front of the camera, I put them in front of the camera because not because of their body, but because something captivated me about their face their look or what they’re giving me. And so the body is the last thing I actually look at, it just happens to be there. And I know this sounds maybe counterintuitive, since my work is very body centric, but I’m very just obsessed with the expression it this person’s face has and how that reflects in their body or how they carry themselves. So now I’m, I’m so incredibly grateful for those dialogues that I get to have with my models. It’s just and I wish I could tell them all the same stuff. I would tell if I had a young daughter, you know, like go out, be beautiful, be bold. Have fun with it. You know, don’t listen to anyone else. Because no one can tell you how you should be happy and how you should look in order to have the permission to be happy. You know, then soon, you know, you’ll be old and we’ll be dead. You know. Enjoy it. All right.

Matthew Dols 1:12:50
Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me.

Julia SH 1:12:53
You too, by the way, enjoy it not sure man. But I’ll tell you the same

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com