Transcript for Episode 069 – Art / Nude Model, Kate Ri (Warsaw, Poland)

Recorded April 18, 2020
Published May 7, 2020

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/art-nude-model-kate-ri-warsaw-poland/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
I want to hear from you. Who would you like to hear as a guest on the podcast? Send me an email at Matt. At wise for pod comm or direct message me on Instagram or Facebook. The entire world is now available through virtual recordings. And I want to take advantage of that I want to talk to people in South America, Asia and Africa. Give me some names and contacts of professional people that work in different aspects and different elements of the art world. You can also help by supporting our network through our Patreon account, you can find us at patreon pa t ar e o n.com. slash the wise for all one word. If you enjoy the conversations and the insights that you gained from the guests, I would appreciate a five star rating and Please tell your friends to listen and subscribe. Also, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. I know that one of my weaknesses is my inability that self promotion. So here we go. If after hearing this conversation, you want to know more about me and my artwork. please go to my website. Matthew dols.com ma, TT h e w d o L s.com. Thanks. Please pronounce your name correctly for me.

Kate Ri 1:40
Well as a model I perform as K three. But in Poland, you can also call me CATIA or Cartagena.

Matthew Dols 1:49
Okay, and is is re your actual name or is this again sort of a stage name? Okay. So how did you even enter in so you as a general you do fashion modeling, you do lingerie you do nude modeling? How did you even enter into this industry?

Kate Ri 2:11
Well, it’s kind of a few stage answer every time when someone is asking me about my beginnings and modeling. Because basically, as a kid, I was never thinking about it like seriously. But I was getting some kind of compliments that I’m really tall and that I should try to perform on stage doing modeling, whatever. But I was never really believing that to be honest. And the first time ever, when I had somehow, like connection to modeling was when I was probably 19 or 20. And it was like totally private. I wanted to do the, like the gifts for my boyfriend, and to produce the calendar with myself wearing sexy lingerie. And I asked my friend from studies, I knew that she is a photographer, and I asked her if she can take pictures of me in luxury. And she said that, yes, you can try. So we did it. And I put a few pictures online as well. Like for my new profile picture, this kind of stuff for Facebook. And some people started to approach me and ask if I do modeling, if I would like to do modeling for them as well. So this is how it started as a hobby. For me, it was like really surprising that someone wants to take pictures of me. But I was doing it from time to time. And because it’s like very much in my personality. I was bragging a lot that I do modeling. But it was just like a hobby. And the second level of my turning into like serious modeling happened when maybe like two years after that. We were traveling with my boyfriend in Europe, because originally I was born and raised in Belarus. And for me, like traveling to Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, it was like very exotic, five years back six years back. So we were traveling and we had the invitation from our friends to the rock festival in Poland. And at this rock festival, I met the photographer, just in the crowd of people, he approached us and he asked what we’re doing and we started to talk and he said that he is a photographer, and as a kind of a joke. I responded I’m a model then and he asked if I have a few pictures. So we showed him those few pictures that I already did. And he said that he liked it and he invited me to Poland to shooting event. Which I was really afraid to join, because I had no idea what is that. But somehow, I got there, I was brave enough. And this event basically

Matthew Dols 5:14
scary. Yeah,

Kate Ri 5:16
that’s true, it was a little bit scary. And that’s why I had to found the friend of mine who was able to travel with me to this event. So it was like to insure myself that I have an option to escape if something will go wrong. But basically, it was like the photo meeting, when I didn’t know it was maybe 2030 people who gathered in one beautiful location, like countryside hotel, something like that. And they were shooting for the entire weekend with each other. So I was the only foreigner there I was done, the person who is not speaking polish. And somehow still, I managed to have a lot of fun there. And since then, I started to think about modeling more seriously. And I met there a lot of photographers I met there are also other models. So basically, they gave me this idea that it’s possible to, to do it like a job.

Matthew Dols 6:21
In that you mentioned that your first experience doing modeling was with a female photographer, I always wonder because I’m a photographer, and I hire models, what what they’re the models, opinions of sort of working with female versus male photographers is one more enticing, more exciting more? what’s the what’s the experience? And how do they differ?

Kate Ri 6:45
Well, for starting modeling, I wasn’t really thinking about such an option to pose to the guy. But now I have like totally different mindset. So for me, it’s not such a big difference between collaborating or working with a model with a photographer who is a male or a female, but definitely at some level, there is much more trust, I would say, when you shoot with the female, in this field of Central photography, nude photography, because as girls know how we would like to see ourselves from pictures that we don’t want to show what we want to show better. All of us know, like best angles, and so on. So usually, when I working with female photographers, I know that those pictures will be like, nicer, let’s say not from the perspective of art or whatever. It’s just like, more safe pictures where I will not be afraid to pose more crazy or something like that. Because, like, there is no possible offense from the girl, something like that. But in general, it only matters with the new person, guess when you know photographer a little bit longer when you had a few sessions or if you know, this person, just the person in advance, then basically, you can trust to male photographer totally the same.

Matthew Dols 8:23
How did you come to doing nude modeling? Because I’m a man, I don’t know anything about it. I’ve never been a nude model. And so it’s how you know it? Was it something you just did initially? And you just said yes, I’m going to do it. Was it something that you grew into? Like maybe you started with lingerie and started with fashion and then sort of became more comfortable with something? How did or you know how did it become the sort of thing that you do more often with

Kate Ri 8:54
also funny story, because when I started this hobby part of photography for a part of modeling, I was searching for photographers online. And those groups were like amateur models are looking for amateur photographers and so on. One of my first photo shoots probably, it was the second photo shoot after the very first one. There was a guy who offered me to shoot luxury and fashion outdoors, like in the nature. And the idea was like totally fine with me. So I found some outfits at home which I was thinking will be like matching to the situation to my imagination of what is sexy, what is essential. What is cool. And because I wasn’t really modeling much I wasn’t really into fashion that much the selection of stuff. I realized that later wasn’t really so good. But we met with this photographer we started to make some money. Pictures. And after some time, he took pictures of me in the outfit that I brought. So it was purple laundry with skin color stockings. And those stockings were a little bit how to call it like ripped behind. So when you post standing with your face to the photographer, he don’t see that something is wrong with stockings. But if you turn back then it’s visible that stockings are basically not good looking. So he took a picture, and he showed it to me. And I saw that the injuries not really matching to my body that like it’s not really looking flattering, because the size of it is not really good. I don’t know how to explain it that wasn’t just looking good. me this will injury. And the stockings are really looking funny come together with the set of laundry and with the like failed with an all flowers something. And the guy said, don’t you think this same picture, but without any outfit would look better? And it wasn’t any kind of how to cook. He wasn’t trying to trick me into nudity. It was just

Matthew Dols 11:18
like,

Kate Ri 11:20
yeah, it could sound like that. But it was absolutely true. Because the outfit that I had was absolutely silly, to the location that we have. And I realized that if I do it nude, it would be much better picture. So I agreed, and we started to shoot nude. And basically, this is how I started. But I also have to mention that for me, it was never like a big deal. Because I was studying at art school. I saw a lot of nude art in paintings and photography, whatever, since my very early childhood. So I wasn’t really that much nervous about the fact that I will have nude pictures, as some other people could be.

Matthew Dols 12:10
Oh, it would scare the hell out of me. Yeah.

Kate Ri 12:14
Yeah, that’s quite possible. But you know, we were studying art. We were drawing a lot at school. So well, we wasn’t really drawing nude people. But we were drawing people with like minimum clothes. So basically, I was like, never stressed about this part.

Matthew Dols 12:34
If you had a choice, even today, like what would be your choice. So like, let’s say you got to create a shoe that you wanted to do and manifest instead of the photographer, the stylist or the client in whatever way coming in and dictating what you choose to do high fashion glamour nude sort of what’s your interest?

Kate Ri 12:56
Well, actually, it changes all the time. And I can already see how my tastes changed since last year or two years or three years ago, I used to enjoy very elaborate photos when it’s a lot of work with like crazy makeup with elaborate hairstyles with fashion outfits. Because this was something very different from my everyday life. And for me, it was like really cool playing to see myself in different roles to see how I could possibly look with the help of many stylists. Later, I was also very fond of fairy tale photos. So like princess with very long hair with some kind of magic Photoshop tricks. Currently, I’m interested in absolutely different stuff in very natural lifestyle pictures, which basically don’t require any preparation. And this is like my model dream to be photographed just in normal situations. So it’s not always possible because I don’t have the photographer with me when I’m let’s say making breakfast or I didn’t know reading book at home or going outside. But those pictures now are the most inspiring for me when they say something like that like very natural pictures of relaxed women and not trying to pretend someone else. This is what I would like to do right now.

Matthew Dols 14:38
Which brings up an interesting question because I on your social media, you do a lot of like selfies and things like this. So it is being the sort of the photographer and doing self portraits. Is this something that you’re also interested in?

Kate Ri 14:53
Well, with self portraits, this wasn’t really my idea, somehow. This happened because other people were were like motivating me to do it encouraging me. In Instagram, for instance, when I post selfies, I get a lot of positive feedback comparing to professional photos. Because selfies are in one style, which probably is liked by my followers, and photos by professional photos, they are done by different photographers, and sometimes probably the the differ from tastes of my followers. So because everyone is motivated by positive feedback, I started to do more and more of selfies. And it also turned into this daily nudes project, which I started basically also as a joke. And now it’s already 98 selfies that I did during this here, the nude selfies that I’m doing by myself.

Matthew Dols 15:59
Are those available online. Those are, wait, I know where they are. They’re on your Patreon account, aren’t they?

Kate Ri 16:05
there on Patreon. But I think I don’t know actually what will happen after this project will be done because the plan is to do to do 300 pictures. But I want to either publish it in some small form like I was doing calendars, probably I will do something like that was those photos? Sometimes I’m showing it on Instagram, but all the collection is on Patreon right now.

Matthew Dols 16:31
Okay, I’m interested in Patreon. How is that working for you? How long have you been using Patreon? Does it you know, does it work? Well, what are what what have you learned about utilizing this sort of group funded kind of process to help support your

Kate Ri 16:49
Patreon veteran is basically a long story and complicated story. And I can talk during like I know, three, four different podcasts about Patreon and still will not run out of thoughts about it. Because like right now, it’s my only paid job. As I’m a troll model, and I’m not traveling basically the only thing which supports me financially right now, it’s just Patreon. But I was never really a big fan of it. From the perspective of a nude model. I totally appreciate Patreon for other artists and I also follow different artists on Patreon like I don’t know, illustrators or bloggers. I have never been been following other models, actually. But photographers. So basically different artists who are not connected with this nudity, this field of elitism, sensuality and so on. But for myself, I was never really into it. Because I don’t really want to be connected in minds of followers and minds of society with the opinion that I am the girl who just shows nudes for money, because it doesn’t really sound so flattering,

Matthew Dols 18:20
right? Which is sort of my question about using these kinds of models, these kinds of methods of income, that that there is that sort of change from being a muse and being a model and being a collaborator and creating art into sort of just being up a product that you’re selling?

Kate Ri 18:41
Absolutely. And also, I’m thinking a lot about it right now. Because basically now it’s the only thing I do, I noticed that it’s changed in my own work that I’m now looking at my pictures from the perspective it will be likeable on social media, like on Instagram and on Patreon. Or, like previously, I was much more thinking if it’s something new, if it’s an art, if it’s if it has any kind of artistic value. Now I just think about is it pretty if my followers gonna like it or not. And I’m trying to control those thoughts and to not go only into this flow, let’s say, but of course there is a little bit of it in this side of work. Maybe for some people, it works better for others, it doesn’t matter at all what you are showing on Patreon but in general, there are a lot of different ways what you can do with bedroom being a model. And some people are using it like this is how I started to use my own Patreon as a platform where you don’t need to worry about center Because basically, there are no other platforms where you can show your art without those risks of being bent. So I started my Patreon, as a platform where for very small amount of money, I can show all my work without any stress. But later it transformed into some extra tires, where I’m doing some behind the scenes where I’m doing those selfies where I’m doing my self portrait serious. And yeah, of course, some Patreon. It goes much better. So it’s just the reality.

Matthew Dols 20:39
Yeah, I mean, that’s one of the big interests I have about someone who does your job when you’re traveling model. So they to a certain extent. And just to be clear, you’re a freelance model, you don’t work with any agency, correct? Yeah, that’s true. Okay. So you just like, you choose to go places, or, you know, book things with particular photographers or other artists, and you sort of just travel around on hope and a prayer that they’re going to be professional, and they’re going to pay you on time, and all this kind of stuff. And I picture that as a reasonably stressful lifestyle.

Kate Ri 21:17
Well, a little bit, that’s true. But also, if you do it for some time, you are so used to those risks that you don’t really notice it. Like, obviously, I’m always a little bit nervous when I’m meeting the new photographer, when I don’t have enough information about him. But in general, it’s not that much risk as it was at the beginning.

Matthew Dols 21:42
Sure, do. I’ve got a question that I’ve always wondered, too, as a photographer who has hired models in the past, do models talk to each other about photographers?

Kate Ri 21:52
Yeah, absolutely. Actually, a couple of weeks ago, I was invited to the Facebook group run by another model, who is like, much more experienced than me. And it’s like, amazing, because I wasn’t like, before that I was talking with other models only occasionally when we are at some job together. So we have some time to gossip. But now there is this Facebook group where girls are discussing all the details of our job, like the rates, the habits of photographers, the policies of traveling policies of cancellation, like just everything. And yet, of course, we discuss photographers, we discuss either very good examples and very bad examples and very funny examples, just everything.

Matthew Dols 22:45
That’s good to know. Because we all we all do that to each other. So yeah, what so the nature of traveling, so you said early on, you traveled with a companion sort of to be safe at that first one in Poland? What what happened in your sort of growth in your experiences, when you suddenly got to the point where you’re like, Okay, I don’t need a companion, I can do this myself. And then, you know, have you run into any issues over your travels? Or? And have you had any really magnificent experiences?

Kate Ri 23:19
Well, with trolling companions, I stopped troll with someone, basically, because no one else has that much time to travel with me, if, for me, it’s a job, and for my friends is justifications. So it would be too complicated to manage my working schedule my plan for let’s say, going for one week to France, with the schedules of my friends who just have a weekend, for example. Actually, I was never traveling alone before modeling. And my first model tour was also supported with my friends. So we started it together. It was in Berlin. And after Berlin, I traveled alone to Brussels, where I had friends who were living in Brussels, so I arrived alone, but still, I was with my friends at their house. And after this first travel, I gained a little bit more confidence. So I was able to travel on my own as well.

Matthew Dols 24:25
Do you have any sort of exam like stories from some of your shoots or locusts specifically, also, like locations that you were like, this was just a magical trip.

Kate Ri 24:35
Basically, most of those trips end up being magical, because this is what I really like about my job that I meet people every day. It’s someone new and someone interesting, because all of those people are already selected through this filter of art interest. So all the photography them meeting usually have some topics that we can discuss together. So we are already like a little bit, knowing each other, we are already a little bit friends. So this is really nice. And thanks to that, I had a lot of opportunities to spend really good time with those people, even though they are basically just hiring me. So I had really a lot of awesome memories from shootings, where I was taking to some cool locations like I don’t know palaces, castles, nature, mountains, sea shores. Basically, from every trip, I can tell a lot of such experiences. Let me think about something particular. Like recently I was in Asia, like the last trade before, like down. I was to almost two months in Thailand in Singapore and Indonesia. And what was there the most fun, let me think, Oh, yeah, for example, there was a story when photographer picked me up by the motorbike in Bali, like everyone was driving with motorbike there. And the plan was to shoot the sunrise somewhere at the beach. And for me, it’s still quite exotic. Because in Europe, I don’t really do a lot of this, it’s not so available, like when you’re living on the island. So I was really looking forward some romantic shoots with long tracks, you know, sunrise. And, of course, I did the makeup, I did the hair early in the morning, like five probably in the morning. So the guy picks me up, we take this motorbike and we go to the place. But we didn’t really know that this place at the sea will be down from the mountain and you have to hike to this place. But on the way from where we parked the motorbike, down to the sea, there was, I don’t know, maybe 100 meters of red mud. And we started to walk through this mud, and our shoes totally soaked in. And all my clothes and all my luggage, everything was covered. And this month, finally. So it wasn’t like the beautiful photoshoot. But the adventure we had behind it was really fun. We didn’t manage to do any good pictures that day. But the view that we have seen but didn’t approach because the mat just blocked us. On the way to the seat was really beautiful.

Matthew Dols 27:54
Nice. So when you approach I shoot, are you when a photographer comes to you? Or are you always hired by photographers, are there sometimes clients or other people?

Kate Ri 28:09
Like 90% of time? It’s photographers. And also 90% of time. It’s like private photo shoots. It’s non commercial basis.

Matthew Dols 28:19
Okay. Yeah. Well, I’m actually I have a question about that as well, which is, do you like, for instance, for example, I know there’s a very common thing in Europe to do the workshops and have models there versus individual shoots just sort of via model photographer? Do you have a preference? Or do you enjoy workshops? are individual shoots more?

Kate Ri 28:41
Well, it’s a good question. Because there are pros and cons in both of it. Most of models, do workshops, because it’s a little bit necessary for self promotion. Because usually, workshops are held by really big names and good photographers. So usually you really want to take this opportunity to appear at someone’s portfolio, let’s say. And also it’s the possibility to meet more possible clients because at the workshop, it’s usually multiple photographers who would hire you probably in the future. But also, during the workshop, you use much more energy, you work much harder. And still, you get more or less the same rate like the individual for the shirt. So sometimes it’s fun. I really enjoy working with a big team. So when it’s a workshop, it’s a little bit more action going on. I really enjoy it. But after the workshop, I’m usually much more tired than after just the individual for the shoot.

Matthew Dols 29:52
Understandable. So when you’re working with or when you’re approached by a photographer, do you have a preference like so basically, like I could imagine some photographers would basically just hire you as an object basically to fulfill their artistic idea. Whereas some others might want you to be more creative and expressive and sort of do your own thing, where and then I’m sure there’s also a sort of a highest level, I would hope or assume that there’s a collaborative nature to the relationship between you and the photographer.

Kate Ri 30:31
I think it’s also like the part of personality of different models. So in my case, I’m kind of a dictator, even, if not in purpose, but usually, I dictate quite a lot how I see myself in the picture. Not even by saying that or giving orders to the photographer, but by the way I’m posing. So I move quite a lot, I experiment quite a lot during the photo shoot. So it’s very rare when I’m really just an object on the photo shoot, of course, I can do it. And I have absolutely nothing against that. But very rare. It happens when photographer really wants me in this role. So maybe only when it’s like a product photography, when I do look at books, catalogs, and this kind of stuff. And even though I can try to do a little bit of experiments on this field, but most of the time, it’s creation in both sides. It’s photographers ideas. And it’s my India’s. And this is also the, how to call it. It’s like the mark for me how professional is the photographer, how experienced is the photographer, if he only takes my ideas and just pushes the button, let’s say or if he also has his own thoughts about how it should look. And the best calibration, the best contact is when the photographer takes what I’m giving him takes the ideas takes the poses that I’m giving, and also works on what I’m giving him. So when I am giving the idea, I get the response from the photographer with his vision of this idea. So this is like the perfect world the perfect photo shoot.

Matthew Dols 32:33
Nice. Do you only work with photographers? Have you ever worked with any other artists like painters, sculptors, anything like this?

Kate Ri 32:42
With painters, I tried, at the very beginning of my modeling, at the time of this invitation to the photo event and so on. I was basically trying everything for what I was invited, because I had quite a lot of time and interest. So I had two experiences one more positive one. disappointing. So I took part in an exhibition as a model for a female photographer and female painter, they were working together. So first I was photographed and later the painter was making something click the icon. So I was posing. icon. Yeah. And later, the photographer was doing the photo shoot with me and the painting. So this was pretty cool and very artistic. And the exhibition was also something very nice to see yourself in. And the second experience was like real posing to the artist, like, like we know from the history how users were basically working. And I was really, really disappointed because the photographer, the artists, the painter, had really a lot of ideas. He was talking really nice. And his ideas was really interesting. And he was also preparing the exhibition. And probably it even happened, I don’t know. But every time I was visiting him and I was spending, like a couple of hours in his studio, he was painting me next time I was coming. He has already different idea. So we were starting from scratch. And next time I was coming he again had different idea or he had no mood. So we were just sitting and talking. And the next time I’m coming he is busy with another model who is posing for him. So basically, he wasn’t really managing well his time and the time of models who were working for him for free because this was just like an art collaboration. So after a month, probably or a little bit more, I decided that I can I spent more time on it because I already started to have like paid jobs. And I quit. And since then, I don’t know if the project finally came to the exhibition level or the guy just stopped.

Matthew Dols 35:15
Yeah. Okay. So photographers got it. And videographers, I noticed you do some videos as well,

Kate Ri 35:21
yeah, videos I do when it’s a lot of fun for me, I really like it.

Matthew Dols 35:25
And that leads to sort of this, this question of like, some models are really amazing at basically like striking a pose and holding it. Whereas other models are very expressive, and they’re constantly moving. And in that expressiveness, and that motion, they come up with the most magnificent poses that they couldn’t have thought of and planned out. So it sounds like you’re more of the moving kind of a model. Yes,

Kate Ri 35:49
absolutely.

Matthew Dols 35:51
Okay, technical question for the other side, towards the, towards the photographer. Because I’ve had this debate with other photographers, some photographers believe that they should take, they should sort of construct and build the images beautifully, and like literally, like, control every placement of every, you know, hand gesture, turn of the, the whatever, and, and take very few really great strong composed created photos, whereas other photographers, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap, and then just sort of hope that there’s a really great picture in there somewhere. Which do you as the model enjoyed more,

Kate Ri 36:32
I remember very clearly, the moment when I realized the time the moving model, and that I was only working with Snap, snap, snap photographers, until that moment when I came to this first shooting event, and there were a lot of analog photographers, and they all of them, were telling me why you are moving so much. Please stop, please don’t move I need to make sharpness and all this kind of stuff. So I really took some time to learn that it’s not always the sign of professionalism. When you’re able to do a lot of poses in the shortest time, like, like they show on YouTube, there are a lot of videos about some supermodels who are able to do like 100 poses in one minute. So I was always dreaming about this. But later, I also learned that it’s not always necessary and more often, it’s necessary to be able to freeze, let’s say, but for my personal preference, I wouldn’t say that I don’t like, like, slow photographers at all. I also enjoy it. So as soon as I learned, and as soon as I’m keeping it in mind that they need a little bit more time, it started to be a lot of fun as well. And I got a lot of really beautiful images with such a photographer’s.

Matthew Dols 38:05
Well, and that also then lends to the question of how communicative should a photographer be in the booking process. So like, do photographers even say things like I’m you, I’m a slow photographer, I want you to be able to hold poses, or I want you to be very active. I’m a snap, snap snap photographer. But even beyond that, like what would you like photographers to say or share with you or express to you in the process of the booking? To make it so that the entire collaboration sort of works out as smoothly as you would like?

Kate Ri 38:42
Well, definitely some photographers are saying that they are slow photographers exactly in those words, actually. But it’s not necessary to be sad during the booking because I’m pretty sure that for most of models, it’s not an issue and it’s not the reason to cancel the booking or to prepare the booking in the different way. So I don’t mind if the photographer will say to me, already at the photo shoot that please don’t move that much or please move as much as you can. What is necessary to be said during the booking is whether the photoshoot gonna be kind of standard regular, how to call it in the regular location with the casual kind of way of posing or it’s somehow a challenging for the shoot, because sometimes you arrive to the photoshoot to realize that it’s going to be outdoors, and it’s like minus five degrees. This is definitely something that should be set in advance. Also, like if the photographer expects the model to swim or to smoke, or to interact with animals, and all this kind of stuff. It definitely have to be set in advance. And the rest is basically just standards discussion like any other job, it’s necessary to discuss rates if it’s paid, or if it’s not paid. And if it’s paid how much it’s paid. And if it’s paid, it’s on the photoshoot or the photographer plans to transfer your money. After some time or in advance, all those details have to be figured out in advance. Also, the location, the timing, the outfits, and if there will be some extra people at the photo shoot, this is actually quite important, especially if it’s a nude photo shoot or essential photo shoot, because most of the time, most of models will not be really happy, if they will found out when they arrive at the photo shoot, that they are going to be more than just one photographer. Or if he has the assistant, especially the male assistant, it’s really like unsafe situation. So it has to be discussed.

Matthew Dols 41:06
Speaking of that, have you been in any sort of unsafe or uncomfortable situations and had to get yourself out of them?

Kate Ri 41:15
I wouldn’t say I had any, like really unsafe situations. But I had a few unpleasant situations. Let’s call it this way. Like somehow, sometimes I felt that I was, for example, overused at the photo shoot, like, for example, when we were planning to shoot something and then the photo shoot you realize that there is more of it? Or if it’s, I don’t know, if you plan to shoot portraits and the photo shoot you realize that photographers wants to shoot nude portraits. It’s kind of, let’s say, disappointing. I never had any troubles from the side of harassment or forcing me into doing something I don’t want to do. So I would say I’m rather a lucky model. But there were a few situate a few photoshoots where they were like no chemistry, let’s say, and I don’t know, was it because I did something wrong. Or if I didn’t, I don’t know, read some signs from that photographer that he wanted me to do something else, which I’m not doing. Or it’s because the photographer just has this kind of personality, which doesn’t share any chemistry, like I mean artistic chemistry. So I had a few photo shoots where I was really looking forward to the end of the photoshoot, but not because of any harassment or whatever, just because I didn’t found a good connection to the photographer. And it was just like, awkward.

Matthew Dols 42:58
I totally understand. I’ve had experiences were the model and I just didn’t click for whatever reason. So yeah. Okay. Social media, I have to say so you have your personal profile on Instagram, but you also have your legs of your profile as well. You have been very successful, it seems in sort of utilizing social media to help to publicize you, so does your time and energy that you’re putting into social media, obviously, before the Coronavirus, quarantining, does it actually help you get more bookings? Like, do you see a relative sort of, basically, you’re putting in marketing through Instagram in order to get more bookings? And does that work for you?

Kate Ri 43:45
That’s actually hard to say, because so far, and I hope it will stay like that. I never had a problem with having enough jobs. And I think at the beginning, it was because I was a new face. So many people were approaching me because they never worked with me, they just found out that I appeared in Europe, and I’m now available as a model. So I had this privilege to choose with whom I want to work. And later, I had enough jobs because I was already known on Instagram and many people knew that I was working with some bigger names with some more famous photographers, I did some observations and so on and so on. So, of course now, I have it easier from some point because I have Instagram and I can basically just announced that I’m going to this or that city, and I will find some bookings directly from this post. But also it wasn’t bad without Instagram as well.

Matthew Dols 44:53
Okay, actually, you mentioned working with particular people and muses and stuff and I’ve got this fun, sort of twist on the whole thing. Traditionally, the idea is an artist has their muse. So like, you know, a painter has their favorite subject, in this case, a photographer might have a model that they enjoy working with, does this work the other way? So they as the model, do you have some Muse that you enjoy working with, that you feel you make the best collaborative work with?

Kate Ri 45:23
Yeah, totally. I think it works like the both ways. And I really, probably even more than the photographer, but I couldn’t say for sure, but me, definitely I need to work with some photographers from time to time to kind of charge my own batteries, and to look at myself with the eyes of this photographer to raise my modeling self esteem. So I’m like, a little bit addicted, from the, to the collaborations with a few photographers who are my friends since many years and who are doing my favorite pictures, my best pictures. And if I’m not seeing them for too long, I really lose a little bit of inspiration. And a little bit of motivation is what I’m doing.

Matthew Dols 46:17
You spoke about a little bit about your sort of need for recharging and your self confidence and stuff. I mean, this is one of those interesting things when it comes to specifically social media, but also just sort of the entire modeling industry across the board, which is that the public only sees the best like so we see literally a curated life of your so your life looks magnificent you travel, you get to go to exotic places, you look beautiful, you dress with beautiful clothing that somebody gives you so but what a lot of people don’t understand is the the day to day workings of it. So like how much time do you have to put into the bookings, like the doing the marketing, and the social media and the planning of trips, and all this sort of business aesthetic stuff that goes into being a freelance traveling model? Well,

Kate Ri 47:12
unfortunately too much. I definitely prefer modeling over managing. So I really dream about the day when I finally found someone doing all of it for me. But right now booking and managing tickets, managing jobs, talking to people managing social media, it’s, I would say 70% of my actual job. So photo shoots is just a little part of it. And it’s funny, because it’s like the part for what I’m paid. But still, I have to do a lot of not directly paid preparations to get those jobs. But yeah, it’s it’s really a lot. Social media takes a lot of time and talks to people. It’s like, probably, for me, it’s the most, I wouldn’t say difficult, but it’s the part of job that I procrastinate a lot. Because, as you already might notice, I don’t really like and I’m not really feeling comfortable with online communication. So for me, it takes too much time when I have to discuss with photographer, when we’re gonna shoot, where are we gonna shoot? What am I gonna wear, if we’re gonna hire the makeup artist, or if I gonna do the makeup by myself. And during the photo, like photo tour during the travel, it happens maybe 50 times 50 dialects of the same content. So 50 times I have to discuss where we’re gonna shoot how and so on and so on. So basically, this is like the most complicated part of my job. And also, there is part of talks which are not going to finish with the photoshoot. So there are people who just want to talk and not always you can find whether it’s potential clients, or it’s just the person who just wants to talk to you. So yeah,

Matthew Dols 49:20
yeah, I mean, you’ve basically have become a very public figure. So like, I’m sure there are lots of people that want to talk to you. Oh, totally random, like, have you ever had any sort of like stalker kind of person as such a public figure,

Kate Ri 49:34
fortunately, only online. And to be honest, I’m a little bit like cautious to not go to public, to be still able to live in my city to go to the city center with France and not being worried that something going to happen that because you know as a nude model, some of my followers are not necessarily the most gentle men, the So, sometimes I’m really worried what’s going to happen if I meet some of my followers online. And actually, it happened once. When I was in Singapore, and I was recognized by the guy who he just came to me, I was with my friends. And he asked, If probably an Instagram model, and I said, Well, yeah, and they, you know, I started to blush, it was like, super nice. That’s how he recognized me in Singapore. So we chatted a little bit. And then he went away, and I came back to my friends. And later, in Instagram, I accepted his message, because, you know, we already met online, and he sent me some pictures he took with me, so it was super nice. In general, I talk a lot with my followers with some of them. So we were already connected on Instagram. And he started to send to me less and less appropriate messages. So it was like, a little bit disappointing that the guy who really seem absolutely normal in real life, when he was back to internet, he turns into kind of a pervert.

Matthew Dols 51:18
I would imagine that that’s a common thing among art models.

Kate Ri 51:24
Yeah, I’m pretty sure.

Matthew Dols 51:26
Yep. Sadly, I mean, because it’s awkward for me, because like, I’m a male photographer. And anytime I hire a female model, I always feel a little. Like, I have to make amends for all of the perverts that are out there and be like super polite and overly professional to try to make sure that like, I’m not giving the entire gender a bad reputation the way that some other people do.

Kate Ri 51:53
Well, yeah, that’s true. Most of photographers, they are like extremely well mannered and well behaved. And that’s why the modeling part of work is really super relaxed and easy. And the social media, it’s just something that you have to accept, because this is just how the society is working. It’s always bigger percentage of crazy people who don’t really think about you as a real person just about the internet concept, who they can send whatever they want.

Matthew Dols 52:31
I have a big question that I’ve always wondered about, which is the debate of sort of, like credit slash money for photographs once they’ve been created. Because like when I was younger photographer doing my art, not commercial work. So this is just artwork meant for galleries and this kind of stuff. I actually had made deals with my model saying, I’ll give you a percentage of sales, you know, do a small edition run and all this kind of stuff. But these days with social media and the free flowing sharing of digital images. How do you keep up with sort of like permissions? And who’s got rights to images? And who doesn’t? And all this? I mean, and maybe I’m just old fashioned mean, does this stuff even matter anymore?

Kate Ri 53:20
Well, I think in general, what matters is the purpose of the photoshoot. So if I shoot individually, privately with a photographer, let’s say for his portfolio, then the only rule is to not sell those pictures to third parties. And of course, I cannot control everyone and basically, it’s just the trust. And so far, I had no such situations when someone salt my pictures without me knowing about it and agreeing for that. And the rest of it. I don’t really mind appearing in different social media, as long as it’s not connected with like, erotic industry, porn industry, whatever, then I don’t really check where my pictures might appear. Actually. It’s funny I googled My name a couple of weeks ago and I found out that there are like fun clubs with my picture a fan clubs, just one with my pictures that I never gave them. They just found it on my other pages on Facebook on Instagram. Um, well, I don’t mind anymore.

Matthew Dols 54:44
Well, that’s the thing is me with the internet. I mean, while photographers want to keep control and copyright over their images and models want to control their public image, you know, kinds of things so they don’t want horrible photos of them out or inappropriate photos of them out. I mean, there is only So much control we can have these days.

Kate Ri 55:03
Yeah, that’s true. I only get a little bit stressed and nervous when I see my pictures when they are named to with some others name. Like if someone steals my pictures for Tinder, for example, or tags, different model on Instagram over my picture. This is frustrating because, you know, it was my work. So I want to be credited. But if it’s a picture of me, and I’m not credited, I don’t mind. I mean, if there is no one else under this picture credited. For me, it’s not such such an issue. But of course, it’s much nicer when people take everyone who was taking part in making this picture properly. This is how it should be.

Matthew Dols 55:54
Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of great good professional practices on how things should be. But it seems like unfortunately, those are not the standard norm, especially on social media, it’s more trying to take the take the credit for everything as individuals instead of crediting all the people involved.

Kate Ri 56:14
Yeah, and also as a model, I don’t really face this situation when I’m not credited so often as the opposite side. Very often, when I post some pictures on Instagram, I see them later in different groups when I am tagged, but photographer is ignored, or the designer or the makeup artist. And I really feel partly guilty in it, even though it wasn’t my fault. But the fact that people are taking pictures from my page, but then again, ignoring everyone else, it’s like, a little bit frustrating.

Matthew Dols 56:54
I have the same issue as a photographer where I’ll, you know, the models would be like, Whoa, can you send me some of the photos and I end up sending them the photos, and then they use them on social media and they don’t tag the photographer. And then, of course, the thing that aggravates me from my side of this equation is is that then they people, all the photos, so beautiful, Oh, you did a beautiful job, oh, everything, you know, all this. So like, all the credit to the beautiful photo is being given to the model, not to the photographer.

Kate Ri 57:24
That’s true. But fortunately, as much as I can see, it’s getting less and less of professional models who are not tagging other people. It may happen to some kind of, I don’t know, Instagram, celebrities, bloggers, whatever. But if it’s like a full time model who tries to have a good reputation, usually models are attacking everyone. At least now it’s turning more and more into this direction.

Matthew Dols 57:52
Yeah, it No, it is getting better for some for sure. But I do remember a time when it was not as common as, as it should be. Alright, wanted to shift topics a little bit. I’m not a model never been a model. So I’m gonna ask you sort of model II based things. If you don’t mind. Is that okay? Sure. Okay, the one big question I always have is, how stressful is it really to have to maintain the, for lack of a better word that like the facade, the the the, your weight, your shape your skin, complexion, like even your hair, like, you’ve got to keep your you have to put so much maintenance into keeping yourself not even, not even, like, looking beautiful, but looking the same, because people have gotten sort of expecting you to be a certain thing and look a certain way. Like, I imagined that that is very stressful.

Kate Ri 58:56
Actually, it’s not because it’s just the part of your everyday lifestyle. And the part of your identity, I would say, also, probably most of models are the people who don’t really have that big problems with keeping at least the same look, I mean, not gaining weight or not losing weight rapidly. So many of models, I wouldn’t say I am like that, but probably from some perspective as well. But those are a little bit winners of genetic lottery. So I know a lot of friends of mine who can eat whatever they want and still remain beautiful and themed without any exercises and so on and so on. So, from this side, it’s not really that much of an effort. It’s more like the knowledge you have to gain you have to read or to watch a lot of YouTube influencers to know what works good for your skin for your body for health. And what is not an actually, this is something for what I’m really grateful to the fact that I became a model, because five years ago, I wasn’t really considering myself a person who is anyhow, beautiful. I had no idea about what fits me about what looks good on me about makeup, about her about self care about healthy lifestyle, all of it came, basically because I started to do modeling. And they started to think, how to keep myself in a good shape. So as soon as you gain that knowledge, it’s not a big issue anymore. It’s just a question of a little bit of discipline. But again, not that much of discipline, as some people can imagine.

Matthew Dols 1:00:51
Yeah, I imagine a lot of anxiety of like, Oh, my gosh, I’ve got a pimple or Oh, my gosh, I gain tequila, like, like a lot of that kind of stuff, mostly because I’m sure I seem to hear about it in media and social media. So I just assume that that everybody’s?

Kate Ri 1:01:07
Well, I wouldn’t say that this is the point of anxiety, I would say it’s more about, or you see so many girls on Instagram who are more beautiful than you. And it’s exam to have concurrence and anxiety of getting older. When other girls are called simply 18. You know, everyday there is another new famous instance, Lancer, who is 16 or 18, or whatever, and she’s absolutely perfect. So this is much more complicated point that you cannot really fix with healthy lifestyle,

Matthew Dols 1:01:46
which makes me think about like, so modeling, to a certain extent has a timeline. Like, theoretically, while there are models that can do it throughout their entire lives, most models have to grow into some other profession. So what do you expect to your next profession to be what’s going to be the next transition of your life?

Kate Ri 1:02:08
This is probably the most popular question that everyone asks to models, and probably to any, I don’t know, social media, their former performers. The point is, I became a model already, kind of relatedly late, I was already working as a chore guides. And before that, I also tried different professions, I was working as a copywriter, I was drawing portraits, I was like, working in entertainment industry, like hosting concerts and this kind of stuff. So I was never worried about changing from one job to another. So I’m pretty sure if I get tired of modeling or if photo industry will get tired of me, the transition will happen in the natural way. So I’m not searching for a new occupation right now, in this kind of stressed way. I’m just I think what’s going to happen next, maintaining all of my abilities, all of my hobbies, to just have fun from as many things as possible. But I think that right now, if not focusing that much on modeling, I will be going more into social media before main like blogging, influencing whatever, because it still works. And it’s going to work for probably longer than modeling. So there is no and line for the age or for the years of experience if you’re just entertainer in the internet. So probably it will be that, but I’m not sure probably I will also do something else. It’s any creative fields, which is open for me.

Matthew Dols 1:04:15
Just to be clear, do you have income from your social media?

Kate Ri 1:04:19
Well, if we count Patreon, yes, the rest is basically

Matthew Dols 1:04:25
counting Patreon.

Kate Ri 1:04:26
Yeah, sometimes I do paid advertisements, but not so much because I’m not really focused on that right now. So I cannot make my living right now from paid posts on Instagram, let’s say. But as I saw the interest in it, I know that it will be possible if I would like to focus on this.

Matthew Dols 1:04:47
Okay, I’m just wondering, like that whole sort of stratosphere of people doing that kind of stuff on social media is out of my realm of knowledge. I like I don’t know understand it. I mean, I get it from a marketing and public relations, nature but I just can’t imagine being that much in the public eye in the way that you are. So I think this has been absolutely lovely. Thank you very much for your time.

Kate Ri 1:05:17
Thanks a lot. It was really fun and I enjoyed my first podcasts a lot.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com