Transcript for Episode 023 – Gallery Director, Alia Fattouh, Athr Gallery (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)

Published October 7, 2019

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-director-of-athr-gallery-alia-fattouh-jeddah-saudi-arabia/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly for

Alia Fattouh 0:13
me. Okay, my name is Alia Fattouh

Matthew Dols 0:16
and you are from from Beirut, but you work at,

Alia Fattouh 0:20
I work at their gallery. I joined in Jeddah, I joined them in January of this year and it’s been an exciting ride.

Matthew Dols 0:30
And as you can hear by the noise behind us, we are currently recording this at the Berlin art week. Art Fair. Not sure how they phrase that quite perfectly.

Alia Fattouh 0:39
They’re both happening simultaneously.

Matthew Dols 0:41
Yeah. Oh, that’s right. Okay, so there’s art week overall, and this art fair. Got it. Now. So you have worked for this gallery since January. And but the gallery has existed.

Alia Fattouh 0:52
The gallery is actually in its 10. year, this year. So there were established in 2009, by Mohammed, how half is and Hamza seda Fie. Both Saudi and with a very strong passion and nurturing young artists and nurturing an art scene. And that’s what they’ve been doing since then.

Matthew Dols 1:18
Okay. And it’s primarily focused on the Saudi Middle Eastern arts community and art scene,

Alia Fattouh 1:23
primarily Saudi. We represent two non Saudis, or non Saudi based, let’s say, because we work with, with Saudi based artists who are, you know, like, don’t carry the Saudi passport.

Matthew Dols 1:41
And one, one little thing that I’m always interested in sorry, this is a diversion from where we were just talking. I’m always intrigued about how people get to working in the arts, because the arts is not like, it’s not like being a doctor or a lawyer or some fabulous as well to do well respected thing. It’s often sort of the sidelines of great career ideas, right in the people’s youth. So background, childhood family sort of nature versus nurture, like, wasn’t your parents that encouraged your interest in creativity? Was it a teacher, a friend, but how did you get here,

Alia Fattouh 2:13
my background is in conflict resolution and security and defense

Matthew Dols 2:18
is random, but yet maybe appropriate for the arts

Alia Fattouh 2:21
very, actually, as I discovered later on. So I studied at the American University of Beirut, I majored in political science then went on to do my master’s at South school Party, which is a bit of a diplomatic school, and then just randomly landed in Dubai, happened to be the day before the Israeli war on Lebanon in 2006. And they bombed the airport. And so I got to Dubai. The next day, I woke up the airport was gone. So I was stuck in Dubai. And from then on, I decided I didn’t want to move back to live in Lebanon, it’s

Matthew Dols 3:02
not a bad place to be stuck. Yeah.

Alia Fattouh 3:04
So and it just so happened that around 2006, the art scene was actually starting to take shape in Dubai, the first Art Fair was happening, I think it happened 2007, the first auction, Christie’s had just set up, the galleries were opening, they were very, very young at the point at that point, like the third line. ivg is about London, and you had the courtyard gallery, you had a few galleries that we’re just really starting. And so my sister was studied art. And so I kind of went through the PR route, because I’m very social. And you know, I didn’t know what to do with my background in Dubai, because it’s not the most obvious no field to be practicing there now. So I thought I’d shift to PR and then PR took me to culture. And from there I was in the arts. And as I worked in the field, I realized that my cousin was also an artist. I have another cousin who’s an art dealer and 17th century European art in Paris and another, you know, so we actually, a lot of us,

Matthew Dols 4:22
okay, so there is a little bit of nature in there and a little bit of nurture, depending on sort of where you what time of year what time of your career, it was. Yeah. Okay. And now, so this gallery author gallery, is that am I pronouncing that correctly? Yes. Okay. Arthur gallery is primarily based in Saudi now, do you go out and do a lot of art fairs?

Alia Fattouh 4:44
The gallery has done a lot of art fairs. And in fact, it’s the only gallery in Saudi that has taken Saudi art internationally and really put it on the map. Before that, nobody had done that. Yeah. See? So right now we’re doing about maybe not not not a lot compared to other galleries, you know, the rest of the world, but we’re doing maybe around six, seven fairs, six fairs a year. Yeah, this year? Oh, that’s a lot.

Matthew Dols 5:17
Again, on average, I think like, on average, that seems like a lot. I mean, our chairs are time consuming, expensive, you know, difficult to just finagle the coordination of the artworks themselves, the artists being able to come you potentially calm and participate, etc. I mean, there’s a lot of work that people don’t see on offer the gallery and of like putting together an art fair,

Alia Fattouh 5:44
that’s true. And in our case, I feel like art fairs are a very important portal, and place to introduce these artists to the world. So a lot of our encounters happen here with curators and museums and patrons. But the most important ones are for us, are these introductions to curators and and museums.

Matthew Dols 6:13
Yeah, so that so like you all that that’s good, because one of the things I’ve always wondered about is like, what is the actual thing that galleries are expecting to achieve by going to an art fair, you know, basically, like, I could imagine certain galleries you when you go to an art fair, you could walk in, and you can tell by what they’ve brought, whether they’re looking for buyers and collectors, or whether they’re looking for institutions, and curators, because if it’s big and monumental, an installation base or something like this, then it’s obvious. They’re going for the museums and curators, if it’s sort of small prints, you know, the price points are a bit lower, they’re obviously looking for more for the collectors and that kinds of stuff. So it’s always interesting to hear why a gallery chooses to go out. So your mission seems to be to actually promote Saudi artists throughout the world,

Alia Fattouh 7:03
yes, to expand their audience, and also to include them in the international discourse. So that we’re not working on the periphery or working in an isolation and isolation with what’s happening in the rest of the world. Because the concerns that the art artists raise are very similar to the concerns that artists are raising in the rest of the world. And that’s something that’s very hard for people to see. And so that’s why we want to talk about their work and show their work in platforms like art fairs.

Matthew Dols 7:42
And what kind of reception Have you gotten from that? Sort of goal has it has it has, how many years? Have you been going to art fairs? I know you’ve only been there for since January, but

Alia Fattouh 7:52
the first has been doing fairs. The galleries been doing fairs ever since it started, in fact, actually, the gallery was part of our Dubai before it even had a gallery space.

Matthew Dols 8:08
So it’s a core element to their mission that

Alia Fattouh 8:12
yes, yes, taking into Saudi artists internationally is absolutely one of our core missions.

Matthew Dols 8:19
And that has it been easy? I mean, yeah. This is the sort of the idea of the podcast is like, what works, what doesn’t work? How does the contemporary world work? Have you had any pitfalls, things that you didn’t foresee? You’re like, Oh, I didn’t think somebody would have this issue?

Alia Fattouh 8:40
Well, in our case, it’s we’re in a very particular case, right. So and especially we one can argue there’s a pre October 2018. You know,

Matthew Dols 8:54
I don’t know what that means.

Alia Fattouh 8:55
The there’s a the, for the art world’s reception of Saudi. There’s a pre hashtag re and a post hashtag she, the way journalists think, yes. Okay. Because of their willingness, or

Matthew Dols 9:10
I’m sure, I know nothing about politics.

Alia Fattouh 9:13
No, it’s just in terms of the reception of anything. And everything Saudi has shifted majorly, since that incident. So

Matthew Dols 9:22
the so that’s interesting. So the politics of a country has interfered or major affected

Alia Fattouh 9:28
majorly, the

Matthew Dols 9:30
reception of commercial gallery and the artists that are producing works in that country.

Alia Fattouh 9:36
Yeah. And that’s unfortunate. Unfortunately, the artists are the ones that are getting in a way sanction by the by the International art scene, because of this incident, because they just don’t want to deal with anything Saudi at this point. And so, one of our major obstacles has been to try and convince institutions and and people to work with us. Because the public opinion has been so aggressively vocal against everything, Saudi that unfortunately, the artists are paying the price. Just like for many galleries, there’s a lot of groundwork to do in order to render these Art Fair successful, you have to do the groundwork beforehand. So set up meetings, and come and visit the cities where you’re going to do the fairs in order to introduce the artists to the scene,

Matthew Dols 10:35
right, so, so really, you all are the sort of the ground breakers, like you’re having to come into all these cities, all these new countries, and try to create a foundation of an interest in something. So you’re literally starting a sort of a new market and a new interest for curators, museums, collectors. What else?

Alia Fattouh 10:57
Yes, and actually one of the very clever and interesting things that the cofounders of the gallery initiated, is something called the Saudi art Council, which is an independent entity, that some of the most important patrons of Saudi formed something called the Saudi art Council. And they came together just to support the art scene. And so these these big families, organized a major exhibition, something similar. And in its hype, it was something similar to a biennial maybe. And so every year, they started to organize these major exhibitions and invited international curators to put them together and organize also a trip. So since 2014, they started to organize trips for about 30 people, 30 art professionals from around the world, to come and discover the art scene. And that’s been a groundbreaking thing for the Saudi art scene and its collaboration with the rest of the world. So that’s another way they put Saudi art on the map. Interesting.

Matthew Dols 12:09
So hey, somebody. So basically, you’re surely going both ways, like, you’re going out of country to go to art fairs, and then you’re also going in country by inviting people to come in?

Alia Fattouh 12:18
Yes, because when we’re doing the fair, we can, we can always fly all the artists, you know, and it’s very, very important for that for there to be an interaction between the curator and the artist. And so bringing them there, organizing studio visits, lunches, dinners, where there’s constant interaction, really forges a solid, more solid base for these human relationships. really sure.

Matthew Dols 12:43
I’m gonna come off as an idiot, but I asked him this next question, but I’m gonna ask it anyways, because that’s what I do. I ask stupid questions. So as a American, as an ignorant American, my perception of people in Saudi Arabia would be that they’re all rich.

Alia Fattouh 13:04
Okay,

Matthew Dols 13:04
now, educate me because I know I’m wrong.

Alia Fattouh 13:07
Okay. Yes. So that’s one of the misperceptions of Saudi society. So it is a very big country with a big population. And, and so you have a rather big portion of it that is not wealthy. And in fact, many of the artists we work with had never traveled before, have never traveled, they only speak Arabic. So that’s also one of the barriers that we have with our artists is that they only speak Arabic. And so yes, that’s one of the misperceptions. And also, the other thing that I discovered, living there is how diverse this country is like that. The social fabric is extremely diverse, you know, you have people who are half Indonesian, half Saudi, half American, half Saudi have, you know, you name it, really, they are extremely mixed. And there’s a very vibrant creative scene in Saudi very, very creative, very dynamic, underground scene as well. And that ranges from filmmakers to DJs and VJs and sound artists, you know, so it’s a really interesting, really interesting place.

Matthew Dols 14:30
Okay. I was just playing devil’s advocate. Yeah, I lived in the UAE and I know a little bit about Saudi, but I wanted to sort of, like get it out there that like that preconceived idea of the entire culture is really not true. Yes. I mean, it’s much like I lived in the UAE and it’s also really not true. They’re either while everybody thinks everybody right, rich, they’re really not already. Yeah. So just trying to get rid of some misconceptions.

Alia Fattouh 14:56
Yeah. Okay. And the way Difference actually from the UAE business you bring it up is that it’s grassroots. You know, there’s an actual population Saudi a big Saudi population that has been acting on a grassroots level for a very long time in the arts in the arts. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 15:18
yeah, the YUI would probably be more the well, it’s probably split, there’s sort of a more traditional band. And then there’s the sort of the elite end of the spectrum for sure. Which were the people that I taught at Zayed University. So, yeah, it was fun. We’re happy to be out of there, though. So even though you only work with Saudi artists, you still have to select of the Saudi artists. So like, how do you select what who to work with and who not to work with?

Alia Fattouh 15:52
Okay, so the gallery has become known for its cutting edge artists and conceptual art. So one of the ways that we’ve been discovering artists is by launching something called the young Saudi artists, the Why say, and so every year, we launched an open call. And it’s become a really important exhibition throughout the the kingdom, to discover talent and for young artists to have their first encounter or relationship with a with a with a professional gallery, or to exhibit in a gallery space. And so we get hundreds of applications. And we form a selection committee. And we some we interact, sometimes the committee is international, sometimes it’s local. And so this year, actually, the show’s happening in November. And so a lot of the artists that are in have now become established, and even internationally recognized, started with the wias. A show. And so that’s one of the ways that we discover artists, and we take them on, some of the criteria that we look at are, what is the artist saying? So what’s the message? How strong is the concept, the intellect behind it? And then you have form? How does it translate into an artwork? Is it aesthetically powerful? You know, pleasing? Is it? Well made the craftsmanship behind it? It can, you know, and when I say craftsmanship, it can also apply to video, because video is also editing and selecting the imagery and the sound and all of that. So these are the things that we look at, when we’re selecting artists. What

Matthew Dols 17:47
about artists statements, I’ve had many, many discussions with various different people about the importance or lack of importance of artists statements.

Alia Fattouh 17:56
Yeah, I just statements is I think what I was referring to as the concept behind the work and the intellect behind it. And so what is what’s the message that the artists putting out there? How are they contributing to, to the conversation? And is it novel or not?

Matthew Dols 18:17
This is great. I’m a professor and I tell students this kind of stuff all the time. But when it like when a professor tells us do write, like mom or dad dying a child, but hearing it from somebody who’s in the industry, such as yourself, basically, you everything you’re saying is the same things that I keep saying, so it’s like, oh, it’s really nice to hear somebody else say the same thing. So like, yeah, either I had it right, or I had it wrong. But like, so I’m hearing like, though, and theoretically, people will have the probably sort of trust you more, because you’re literally on the ground, boots on the ground, interacting with people interacting with artists and curators, and all that. I’m just sitting in an ivory tower teaching is like, I don’t know the reality of it. But it’s nice to hear that what I’ve been telling my students is correct. Sort of correct, at least in your experience.

Alia Fattouh 19:04
Yes. And actually, I wanted to say the other thing that we we really value is when artists introduce us to other artists. That’s Yeah,

Matthew Dols 19:15
that’s something that you come up before is we talked about like when when an artist is out trying to get a gallery to represent them. Oftentimes the people think oh, drop a portfolio by or email portfolio or something like this. Every single Not a single gallery, or curator I’ve spoken to is said, Oh, yeah, that worked successfully. I now represent that person then they sell very well. Yeah, nobody, it’s oftentimes it’s through collectors. Yeah. or through other artists that the gallery already respects or through curators or so it’s all about the relationships like in the end, it’s just always goes back to relationships.

Alia Fattouh 19:58
So a lot of A lot of agreements in the art world are made through a handshake. And so these informal ways of working like these introductions, references are very important.

Matthew Dols 20:15
Okay. But that leads to an interesting question, which is social media and the internet and all this. So while the tradition the long tradition of the arts world is handshakes, coffee, beer, you know, whatever, yeah, greases the wheel of the business. And then how is the social media working or not working for you? In that, like, does it complement it? Does it contradicted?

Alia Fattouh 20:39
Well, it definitely come supplements it. But in a way, also, we’re seeing a lot of artists becoming independent and not working with galleries because they are able to place work through their Instagram accounts. That being said, we’re not only about placing an artwork and selling art, we are also about building a career. And for us, building a career is also very much an institutional recognition and a curatorial and critical recognition. And so getting that done, you need a lot more than just as an Instagram account, which so far has proven fantastic for selling art. And I’m sure the gallery the gallery

Matthew Dols 21:25
has sold.

Alia Fattouh 21:26
No, I’m just saying like for artists in general, but for the gallery, we we don’t really sell through our Instagram account. But a lot of people discover artists and what we’re doing through our Instagram, we have a relatively big following. We have about 40,000 followers lovely. And so it’s you know, I think now we’re 50.

Matthew Dols 21:50
Far more than me, but I’ve only been doing this for six weeks. So you know.

Alia Fattouh 21:54
But that’s to say that we are still working through the traditional medium.

Matthew Dols 22:02
Well, that means so the question we like, a lot of people seem to think like, Oh, I can put my work on Instagram, and I can sell it that way. But is it possible that Instagram is simply just becoming another, just another layer in the process, basically, so like, let’s, let’s say somebody just happens upon an artist’s work that you represent on Instagram, which then leads to let’s say them coming to an art fair, where you happen to be exhibiting that person’s work, which then leads to say, an exhibition, etc, etc. So it seems like it’s just, it could be used. I’m not saying it does successful use, but could be used as just another outlet or another resource? Yeah,

Alia Fattouh 22:41
absolutely. It’s an it’s a very powerful one. And, and we utilize that. And we encourage our artists to definitely have Instagram accounts and to have good websites. And all these things are very important, because they’re also your connection to the world.

Matthew Dols 22:59
We’re okay. Now, what about this issue? It’s a long standing issue of artists selling out of their studios or behind the galleries back? Does the does social media, has that increased? That? Is there been a difference because of the social media that basically artists are selling more on their own? Um, or have you not noticed, we

Alia Fattouh 23:19
haven’t noticed that for our artists, particularly, but I know it’s an issue. Yes, I will stop with that.

Matthew Dols 23:28
It’s fine. I’m not trying to get anybody in trouble. You just mentioned off recording that there, there’s an aesthetic that is unique to the Saudi arts. Is that, is that true? If so what sort of what’s the very What’s the difference? What’s the unique qualities?

Alia Fattouh 23:46
So of course, it’s very hard to generalize. But there’s definitely a tendency for Saudi artists who use new media, photography, video, video installations, installations, site specific works. And, and that’s something I noticed when I got there as well, for example, it’s very hard to find painters. We don’t represent a single painter in our roster of maybe 25 artists. Some of them have a painting background. For example, Sara Abdullah, whose work has behind us is, is a painter, formed as a painter, but then became a video artist, and became known for her video work and only very recently went back to making these collage paintings, which were showing one of But otherwise, the aesthetic is it’s a very, it’s a very subtle, the artists that we represent, even though that doesn’t come across are actually Quite political and socially engaged and have developed their own language of, to comment on their context.

Matthew Dols 25:11
And so politically and socially engaged? Yes, yeah,

Alia Fattouh 25:15
yes. Okay. Yes, yes. Yes.

Matthew Dols 25:17
I’m fascinated by that.

Alia Fattouh 25:18
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 25:19
I mean, cuz that’s, that’s gonna be a little difficult to do.

Alia Fattouh 25:23
Yes. So that’s, that’s why I’m saying

Matthew Dols 25:24
a balancing line, like you can’t go too far and be too political or to

Alia Fattouh 25:30
just say that they did it in a in a mature way, you know, they didn’t go headstrong against anyone, they they’re not insulting anyone they’re not, you know, they’re not aggressive in the way that they big, you know, comments on on their environment. But they learn to do it in a in a very smart and creative way.

Matthew Dols 25:56
That’s good. I mean, metaphors highlighting things like this are all very commonly used things throughout the art, art history.

Alia Fattouh 26:04
And also just just highlighting things that are that they see around them without without criticizing them, just by the mere fact of highlighting, you’re already saying something,

Matthew Dols 26:16
the focus of the gallery really is about trying to get your artists into institutions and to curators and museums. What kind of experiences have you had with that? Like, how easy is it or not easy is it to actually make those connections, but not even just make the connections but build them and nurture them over? Because they some of them can take years to come to any sort of any sort of tangible results. Let’s say

Alia Fattouh 26:48
that we’ve been successful in doing that on several levels. But also it comes with a lot more work than I think, any gallery coming from Europe or the US. For the first reason being that a lot of artists don’t speak English, language barriers, language barrier. Yeah, it’s a big one, because it’s important for there to be a direct communication between the artists, right, and the institution. And so we are they’re having to translate everything and every, every phone call and and every email correspondence and so that already,

Matthew Dols 27:25
Google Translate is pretty good.

Alia Fattouh 27:26
Yes, I live

Matthew Dols 27:28
in the Czech Republic, and I don’t speak Czech. So trust me.

Alia Fattouh 27:32
So that’s that’s one aspect of it. The other aspect is that these institutions are located abroad. And so you know, you have to go to them. But people have been very curious, you know, and I think it’s going to happen more and more that the West, I hate to say that use that term, but the West, I believe will be looking more and more to at Saudi because currently, the country recently launched its Ministry of Culture in March. And so there’s I don’t know if you’ve heard of something called the vision 20/23 of it. So okay, so because because recently, the focus is on sports, art and culture, and entertainment. And so the ministry of culture has been very proactive in sending artists on residencies and giving scholarships. And that’s excellent. I would love to know more about like, scholarships, granting residences, these are things that are fascinating to me on from like, different levels. Because on the one hand, as a practicing artists, they’re very interesting to try to get. But on the other hand, also from like the curatorial position, the gallery position,

Matthew Dols 28:50
I find these kinds of like granting recipients and residency recipients seem to be basically like they’ve almost been judged worthy. Yeah. The the. Yeah. And so therefore, then they get a better look and better reputation and potentially a better reputation, therefore.

Alia Fattouh 29:07
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s, that’s, I forgot to mention that. But that’s actually one of the things that the gallery has been doing throughout this year is it’s sending artists on presidencies. And so, the art fairs aren’t the only way that we’ve been doing, you know, discovering, allowing people to discover the artists is also through presidencies. And so, yeah, the, the ministry has been really, really supportive. And they’ve they’re bringing a lot of international shows to Saudi. So for example, the ministry recent is is in the process of bringing BNL sewer, which is the biannual that recently took place in Buenos itis. It’s coming to Riyadh and they’re also doing very large scale commissions and the public space. They’re creating festivals. They’re building museums. So I think there’s going to be a lot more talk about how the art and culture, and we hope that people really see how the potential of the of the art scene and of the artists and the creative capital that’s there. We partnered with pace gallery, and we actually represent all their roster in Saudis. So we’ve been working on creating these opportunities for them. And there are many, there are really many opportunities in Saudi right now. And so we’re working on two very important and groundbreaking projects that will take place, one in Riyadh, one in Jeddah, and one in hula. hula is one of the governments of Saudi, it’s the size of Belgium. And it has one of the most important archaeological sites in the country. And they’ve been doing a festival since last year, where they’re commissioning projects in the public space. And so you will hear very soon, I hope they’re announcing the Commission’s so we’re working with pace and pace X on that.

Matthew Dols 31:25
That’s pretty impressive. Pace doesn’t partner up with many places with people. So it’s good.

Alia Fattouh 31:29
They’re also very smart.

Matthew Dols 31:30
Yes. Well, I mean, they were one of the biggest names in the arts market. So

Alia Fattouh 31:34
yeah, we’re very happy with this. collaboration. Yeah, I

Matthew Dols 31:38
would hope so. Yeah, we call

Alia Fattouh 31:42
2139 is that annual show I was telling you about? That’s organized by that’s the weirdest number though. 21

Matthew Dols 31:48
Why is it 2130? There we go. Okay, cuz I’m like, I don’t understand those numbers. Yeah, that’s fine. We have to 454 actually in Abu Dhabi, which is the same. Okay. Okay, got it. Okay, there

Alia Fattouh 32:02
you go. So, so 2139 is the annual exhibition that the Saudi art council organizes every year. And that’s happening this January is curated by my, by my affiliate, the former director of effort. And we they always invite international artists, alongside to be shown alongside Saudi artists. And that’s been a very inspiring thing for, for the local art scene to be exposed to these international artists, because like I said, many, many don’t get to travel. And so bringing these international artists locally is very important.

Matthew Dols 32:43
If you were able to give any sort of advice or a recommendation to like so from your experience, or you’re in the gallery scene, so to another gallery, or another gallerist, about how to get better at what they do increase their game, go up to the next level, whatever, what kind of thing would you encourage them to either do actively or because of some thing you’ve learned stay away from.

Alia Fattouh 33:12
So my recommendation is to actually have management skills, and business skills. Because a gallery is at the end of the day, it’s a business, even though it’s very hard for the art world to recognize that it is supposed to be financially viable. And it’s a commercial business. And so one of the recommendations that I have is not only to have the passion, and the eye for art, it’s also to have this management and business development capacity on your team. Because we’ve seen too many galleries be extremely passionate, have a great eye, but then don’t know how to sustain their business financially.

Matthew Dols 34:05
Right, I get it. I’m an artist. And they in school, they taught me everything about how to produce art, how to think about art, how to write about art, but they didn’t ever taught me how to run the business of being an artist. Yeah. And so it’s very difficult to get that knowledge of like, you can you can choose great artists, you can be a great charismatic person and all this kind of stuff and be the salesman and all that but, but being able to actually make it a not necessarily profitable, but at least like balanced balance sheet. Kind of an endeavor is probably one of the hardest things because I mean, most galleries fold within three to 10 years.

Alia Fattouh 34:47
Yeah, I think that’s exactly the average around five years. Yeah. The other thing I would say is it’s it’s really important for galleries not to follow trends. You have to believe in what you do. And you have to find, you have to have a coherent and cohesive also roster of artists. And that defines your identity. The gallery’s identity, its aesthetic, its message. And it’s focus. And I think when you follow trends, you lose sight of who you are. Because you’re just trying to catch up with what’s happening around you. And when you do that you’re actually falling behind. So it’s really important to be to just have your own vision. And when you believe in that vision, I believe things fall into place.

Matthew Dols 35:42
Well, and that’s a balancing act with the business elements of this. Because if you’re trying to be that trendsetter, instead of that trend follower, oftentimes, the industry won’t see your trend for three years, five years, and you need to be able to keep business open until that thing that you believe in that thing that the art world has either not shown interest in yet or not figured out yet, or Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah, absolutely gonna coincide. And

Alia Fattouh 36:16
the work of a gallerist is really a long term process. Building the career of an artist is a long term endeavor. And so one of the things that I’ve experienced with Lombard freed when I was living in New York is, is that they discovered a lot of artists. And actually, the other thing I would recommend to a gallery is you have to know how to grow with your artists, otherwise, they will graduate from you. And they will move on to other bigger galleries. And that’s one of the major problems in the art world is that you have these young galleries that are discovering artists. And the big galleries are kind of taking away once they see a potential in an artist, they kind of grab them and take them from these young galleries.

Matthew Dols 37:07
There’s gallery poaching, basically. Exactly. That’s Well, that’s really interesting. So So what was some of what you’re encouraging is that basically, if a gallery starts off, and they start with young artists that the gallery needs to grow with the artists career, yes, that of basically allowing an outside gallery who has more experience in let’s say, artists with more mid career level kind of stuff, just coming in and poaching the young artists once they get to that level?

Alia Fattouh 37:36
Yes. Yes, it’s it’s very important to be able to assure the artists that you will continue to bring opportunities to them and opportunities that are in line with a career growth, so so that they stay with you.

Matthew Dols 37:56
It’s good advice. Yeah, I think it’s excellent, because I don’t I think a lot the problem with that I see with a lot of like arts and artist stuff is that like everybody gets so bogged down in literally the day to day workings that sometimes they can’t take the step back and see the bigger picture and sort of see like a Wade, our long term plan on this is x, y, z. I work in academia, and it’s a it’s an incredible fight to just even get them to come up with like a three year plan. Yes, it was like a five year

Alia Fattouh 38:27
plan. If you sit down with your artists once a year and you set goals for that year, and annual, you know, meeting that sets the strategy, you are already in a much better place than many others. And I’m interested by that, but Okay, so you so you all as a gallery you do sit down with your artists once a year, give or take once a year,

Matthew Dols 38:49
yes. And set goals. What kind of goals do you set? Like I mentioned, like what are the sort of benchmark things that you that

Alia Fattouh 38:56
they they depend on the artists, right, so every artist is in a different place in their career. And so they and every artist actually defines their success differently. Some artists want to be placed in museum collections, others want solo shows in institutions. Others just want to be recognized by a curator included in a group show. Others want residencies others want mentorship. So some just want sales, you know, so you really have to see where the artist is in their career and try and map out the what would be the next steps that will build their career and move forward so that every step they take more or less is in that direction and is helping to build this career. Others wants for example, press you know and critical recognition. So they There are so many different fronts and so many small things that one can do to to build to build the artists way forward. It’s great. My last question,

Matthew Dols 40:10
okay, probably the most difficult question. Now, you may not have listened to the podcast, that’s fine. I don’t take offense, that in producing the creation of this podcast, I came up with a way because the idea is to figure to learn how the contemporary visual arts world works. Okay, that’s what I want to learn. And that’s what I’m hoping to learn from the guests like, I obviously don’t know the answer, because if I knew the answer, I would be in my studio making art instead of all the other things I have to do to make a living. So in order to sort of give a quantifiable result that I am, I’m learning how the contemporary art worlds works is that I’m trying to get a piece of my artwork, literally me, presented in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. So I’m asking every person that comes for a step in the process of how I can achieve that result. Okay. And whatever you tell me to do, I will do, and I will transparently keep everybody involved in the entire process through the podcast.

Alia Fattouh 41:18
As an artist, I think one of the ways to achieve that is to have a gallery. Because the gallery has a network, and you’re a little biased, you work in a gallery.

Matthew Dols 41:31
take you right, good, good.

Alia Fattouh 41:34
Well, I mean, if you don’t want to have a gallery, then you really have to know how to network. And so you have to have these social skills in order to build these relationships and basically, grow those.

Matthew Dols 41:51
This is one thing that I’ve run into in my own career, and I know lots of people to do, I can make relationships,

Alia Fattouh 41:57
yes, but it’s

Matthew Dols 41:58
keeping them and growing them that is very time consuming. And difficult. I mean, not not that I don’t want to Yeah, but it takes a lot of effort and conscious work to continually over years. meanings,

Alia Fattouh 42:15
and staying relevant. And you know, and so basically, bottom line, what, what you want to be doing is you want to be on these curators radar, right so that they include you in their biennials and triangles and museum shows and what have you. And so, in order to stay on their radar, you also need to know what it is that they’re interested in what it is that they’re looking at these days, what are the subjects that they’re researching. And so that’s why these relationships are so important. And for an artist, the reason why I say it should have a gallery is because is because the artists, primarily you should be focusing on doing their research and making art and being inspired. And so if you’re spending half of your time, like you said, it’s very time consuming. And so if you’re spending most of your time networking, that leaves you with very little time in your studio, or wherever you make your art, so reading and researching and making videos or whatever.

Matthew Dols 43:24
But I feel like the galleries that are at the level of what you’re talking about, which I assume at this point is where you’re one of these galleries, where the gallery does this work, basically this public relations work this maintaining relationships works, this building of relationships with curator curators and institutions and things like this. Those are not that common in the world.

Alia Fattouh 43:47
Well, that’s, I think that’s every galleries mission?

Matthew Dols 43:50
I think it is to Yeah, when you open up an art map or whatever of a city high thing, like, I think the amount of the quantity of galleries that think like you seem to be thinking like your gallery seems to think are less than the amount of galleries that just simply want to sell art.

Alia Fattouh 44:07
Hmm.

Matthew Dols 44:09
That’s what I’m trying to say.

Alia Fattouh 44:10
Right? Yeah, of course. I mean, some galleries are more commercial than others. And so their focus is more on sales.

Matthew Dols 44:17
So it’s almost like we need a different set of criteria. Like this is an institutional Art Gallery and commercial art gallery. It’s

Alia Fattouh 44:24
true that I mean, you can actually you can actually know what the, the galleries focus is when you look at the team and how they’ve the structure of the team so so

Matthew Dols 44:35
have a sales director then it’s probably more commercial gallery.

Alia Fattouh 44:38
Well, some galleries. Some galleries, for example, have a lot of artists liaison. Some galleries have institutional directors, some galleries don’t even have these positions and focus a lot more on sales. And so because it takes the gallery a lot of dude diligence and research to, to know what these curators are looking at and what they’re interested in, you have to read interviews, you have to look at magazines and press and read a lot to also see what’s happening and have your pulse on things. So yes, there are these two, I guess. But But see, the thing is I’ve only worked in galleries that have been focused on institutional relations and developing the exhibition side of artists practices, that’s quite luxurious, in my opinion, to not basically to not have to be focused on selling. Because selling is, as much as it’s a necessary evil sort of kind of thing. I mean, we want we all want to just be producing art and exhibiting art and letting people appreciate it. And we wish the entire industry could sort of just end there. Yeah, unfortunately, money has to be involved. Yeah, but one thing leads to another, you know, when when collectors see when the artist CV is filled with institutional shows, and by annuals, it also leads to a strong market and the market recognition.

Matthew Dols 46:12
Okay, with that question, I want to ask another little subtle question. This is what I say my last two questions always lead to like a million things. But so when you all choose to go to an art fair, and you’re sitting back and going, Okay, we’re gonna go to Berlin Art Fair. We’re where we’re sitting right now. How do you choose which artists?

Alia Fattouh 46:31
Okay, for this fair, it was a very easy selection, because we’re showing assata Abdullah, who has a solo exhibition at the Coons fine in Hamburg,

Matthew Dols 46:41
okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Alia Fattouh 46:43
Yeah, that was a very obvious choice. And they’re all pretty much obvious choices. Reman Nasir, who is walking through walls, which just opened at the Gropius Bau two nights ago. It’s curated by somebody that we learned till fall wrath. And so her work is in the show. And so obviously, we have this

Matthew Dols 47:03
again. Yeah, we had to

Alia Fattouh 47:04
bring her here. And Zara Han Jie, who was is representing Saudi at the Venice, biennial this year. And also and salmon tails show their Gropius bow. So another obvious choice. Mohammed, when I see who’s on the other wall, there is not the obvious choice, because he’s not in a show currently, in Germany or in Europe.

Matthew Dols 47:31
Well, so then that one’s the one that’s not the obvious. Yeah. Why did you choose it? So what I’m getting at is is basically, so let’s say an artist has is represented by a gallery, and that gallery does go to art fairs, why might they be chosen to participate in an art fair or not? Like what are the things that go into the decision?

Alia Fattouh 47:49
every market has a different aesthetic, like an overlying aesthetic, and, and so you try and you see what museum shows are happening in the city? What is what is going on every city is kind of interested by certain subjects as well. And so you have to look at what’s happening. What are the collectors collecting? Because nowadays, you know, there’s a lot more talk about this collector and that collector and what they collect and the Institute and the foundations that they’re building. And so, you have to do your research before you come and Sure. And so that’s kind of how you do it.

Matthew Dols 48:32
This has been fabulous. Thank you very much for taking your

Alia Fattouh 48:35
cause. Welcome. Thank you for your interest. All right. Thank you

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com