Transcript for Episode 019 – Artist Coach, Jessica Serran, Becoming Artist (Prague, CZ)

I had the opportunity to sit and talk with Jessica Serran in Prague, Czech Republic about: Nervous breakdowns, Starving artists, Therapy, Marketing, Conscious business, Marketing artwork, Fear of rejection, Coaching, Expectations, The role of an art gallery, Definition of success, Authenticity, Bartering, Self sabotage, Online marketing, Analytics, SEO, Marketing funnel, Crowdfunding, Failure tolerance, Vulnerability, Embarrassment, and the need to 'Do the last thing you want to do every day, first'.

 

Published September 23, 2019

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-artist-coach-jessica-serran-becoming-artist-prague-cz/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly for me. Yes, I’m Jessica Saran, like the rap like the rap.

Jessica Serran 0:19
And you are from. I’m from Amesbury, Ontario, which is in southwestern Ontario, Canada. The nearest big city is Detroit, Michigan. And I grew up on a small farm in Canada, but 30 minutes from Detroit. Alright, and what brings you to Prague? Well, I came to this country first. 10 years ago, I actually was here to do an artist residency in a town about an hour and a half south of Prague called Tabar. And one thing led to another I was in tavar, I was going to stay in Europe a little longer, I fell in love that ended horribly. And during that time, I got a grant from the Canadian government to do a project about this country. So I left the small town where my heart was broken, and moved to Prague To get started, okay, and now that you’re here, you run an organization, or group, I’m not sure how to define it, I do. So I have a business called, it’s going to be called the becoming, but the programs I offer are called becoming artists. They’re becoming artists programs. So I started teaching online courses and coaching other artists. Alright, give me some more understanding of this, because this is all this podcast is all about how the business of the arts works. Now you’ve chosen to open a business, that’s part of the business of the art. So what brought you to the point of saying, I should create this business, a lot of different things, oddly enough, when I first moved to Prague, I was in the middle of a nervous breakdown. And I got a therapist and I was basically the the starving artist, you know, I had been making art for a long time, I had had exhibitions, got grants, sold some art, but you know, it was it was never sustainable. And so I had this therapist, and amongst other things we discussed, she said, you know, maybe you should actually study marketing a little bit to see how that might support you in your art. We all need to study more marketing that I find. For me, that’s my biggest weakness. I can make a beautiful thing, I can create an interesting concept, whatever. But it’s getting it in front of the right people. That is the most difficult part for creative people to figure out how to do. Absolutely. And it was it was funny to me, because before that when I had lived in the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area, I was getting my masters. And I had this fascination with these things. I was learning about conscious business, people who were thinking about spirituality and how to be a certain kind of leader in business and what became possible when, let’s say people were thinking differently in the corporate world about marketing about not just having one bottom line, but two bottom lines. I had this weird fascination with it. So when she said, Why don’t you study marketing, I actually found because I’m also very interested in spirituality and personal development. So I found people who are running what they would call heart based or heart centered businesses, and who are interested in spirituality. So the first person I studied with was a Sufi, who taught marketing and business practices. I’m I know that word Sufi, but I can’t put a finger on why I know it. So it’s the esoteric version of or like, in every religion, there’s the like, the mystical traditions, yes, the esoteric tradition. And then the more exoteric tradition is more like the fundamentalist or just like your religion, as you know it. My father is actually a clergy. So yeah, I know a little bit about religion, but not enough, just enough to be dangerous as to how much I know. So Sufism is basically the esoteric version of Islam. All right, yeah. So anyway, I started learning about business and marketing. And I kind of loved it. I kind of thought it was fascinating. And of course, I was trying to apply it to me being an artist. And at the same time, I also, there was a couple of things happening. So I had finished this big grant project, and I was trying to figure out what to do next. And I needed to get back into my own studio to focus on my art, not just the art that I had done for the project. And so I thought, well, I know I’m not the only artist who’s studying with this, or struggling with this. So I developed a course I decided I’m just gonna get my ass back to the studio and develop a course at the same time that could help other artists do the same thing. It’s the the one thing that every artist asks basically, like I do, portfolio reviews online for a group called lensculture, which is photographers and almost every single person that I do a review for has a question says How can I get more exposure? How can I get more clients? How can I sell more? How can I whatever it is the one thing that we all don’t seem to know how to do is market our work. We’re not to produce beautiful things, but we don’t know how to sell them market that maybe license them whatever other style of way to create income. We don’t know how to do that. Absolutely. Yeah. So and I actually found that a lot of artists struggle just to make the art as well. There’s a whole contingent who would love to sell it, but they’re not even necessarily making it consistently, or they’re struggling with some part of the creative process. That’s not my problem. I can I can’t stop making things. I’m fine with that. But yes, there are people that have sort of creative blocks, there have been, you know, five years here and there where like, I just couldn’t make anything for whatever reason, but yeah, it does happen to people. But really, I think that the the biggest struggle, like I think one of those things that creates those creative blocks is the Why am I going through all this work and effort to create these things that nobody wants? Or nobody buys, or nobody wants to exhibit or whatever. So it becomes this whole sort of, you know, chicken in the egg catch 22, kind of like, which comes first this is selling or making the beautiful work? Or is it you know, exhibiting or making the beautiful work? I think it’s undeniable that we need our work to go out into the world and to have people receive it. And yeah, it’s incredibly frustrating. And sometimes it’s really scary as well. I think a lot of the artists that I work with, they’re actually scared of being that vulnerable and putting their work out there always, every time I enter a competition or submit something I’m like, if they don’t accept it, like, they don’t like me as a person, and they don’t like my entire life’s work and everything I’ve worked for like, absolutely. It’s a horrible, crushing and vulnerable emotional experience to do that, and then be denied. Yes, time and time again. Yes. Yes. So I developed the first online course it was called keep your ass in the studio. And I was figuring out how to even have an online course how to market it, how to get students. And then this was back in 2015. Or actually, maybe the first course was 2014. But then I started working with these artists, and they wanted to keep going after the, you know, first four month course was finished. And so I started to develop courses around Okay, yeah, how do you have an exhibition? You know, how do you make some money. And I just kept going with it. And I was studying marketing, like I said, in business, but I was also working with my own coaches. And so I really got into the whole world of coaching. And, you know, starting to look at, I don’t want my life to be limited by so much of what I see around me by so many artists are what they believe as possible. So certainly, there’s some who, you know, have figured it out the art stars, they’re making it, they’ve gone for it, but there’s, they’re like, 1% of 1%. there’s so few of them in comparison to the sheer volume of people that make creative things. Yeah, and the rest, you know, I got so there’s a couple of things I got so tired of believing and feeling like that’s all but there’s only so much that’s possible. And I also felt like I’m actually, you know, this is dangerous to say, but I’m so uninspired by most artists, not just by the art, but by how they’re choosing to live. Well, who says you have to be inspired by artists, I know many great artists who are inspired by, you know, the way the wind blows through a tree or you know, you don’t have to be inspired by other artists. That’s not a necessity. Yeah. And I found out I didn’t even want to spend that much time around them. Well, that yeah, that that happens at certain times in your life as well. Like, we were just talking before this about how like, as a general, I don’t hang out. I’m a photographer, but I don’t like photographers as a general whole. And I’m perfectly fine with admitting that it’s my own issue. But I just find that they just don’t aren’t interested. Most of them are just not interested in the same things I’m interested in talking about. So I just stay away from them. Yeah. And I also started to, I started to reflect on the exhibitions I’ve had, when have they actually been satisfying? And when have I actually gotten the results that I wanted? And I realize now you’re putting in the word like you’re putting in expectations into it, of what you wanted out of an exhibition, that’s an expectation of some result. Mm hmm. Those are dangerous. Why? Because expectations are so easily not reached.

Matthew Dols 9:32
And then you feel like you didn’t achieve the thing you want to do achieve because you put such a high expectation on some outcome of an exhibition. Well, I would actually started to happen is I was evaluating which exhibitions I’ve had have I had that have been deeply satisfying. Be that through sales or connections or more opportunities, or just the actual experience of showing up and being that room in that room during the opening reception.

Jessica Serran 10:00
was actually a beautiful one where I actually felt a connection to the people. And the experience we had was, was quite lovely. And I realized that, you know, I started to apply some of these things I had learned in marketing, like, I have a particular kind of audience. And those people tend to hang out in certain places. And that isn’t always in the gallery. Very rarely is it actually in the gallery. Yeah, the most people who buy art do not have time to just hang out in galleries. Most of them are business people, or entrepreneurs or whatever else. And they’re, they’re busy doing their own thing. And then they love it. And they happen to love art. But most of them, that’s why they have that’s why they work through galleries as far as buying works, because the galleries job is to connect with those people and basically not waste their time and not make them see a million different artists hoping that they find something they love. It’s the gallery’s role to basically edit through and curate going, Okay, this particular artist, this collector would like, those are the people that will buy the works, but they don’t hang out in galleries, do they? I don’t think they do. Not always. And I think that there’s a whole group of people that I’ve sold work to who wouldn’t even call themselves art lovers. But they loved the piece I made. Sure, right. And that’s a whole different group of people. So, for me, it became about, actually, if I can create art, I can create a career on my terms. And I think this podcast is interesting, because I certainly don’t have the formula for you know, how to, you know, break into the art world. If I have the formula, I wouldn’t be doing a podcast, I’d be in the studio making art. Yeah, I don’t I don’t think many of us are given it if it even exists, and it doesn’t. And I realized I wasn’t actually that interested in what it would take any way to get into that world? Well, I mean, that’s a question that I

Matthew Dols 11:55
would get to later in the podcast. But I’ll go ahead and ask now, which is the idea of what is success? So like, because people say, Oh, I want to be successful. Okay, what does that mean? Does that mean enough money? Does that mean enough time? Does that mean enough space? Does that mean? Being an immuno solo show at the Tate Modern or MoMA? Or does that mean, being in the art history book as the shining light of a particular movement? Or a style? Like, what’s everybody’s definition of success is so different? That when we all talk about, oh, what does it take to succeed? Well, we all have different definitions of success. Well, I think that’s a beautiful question. And I think it’s one that most of us aren’t answering either. So we’re chasing after something that we think might be our version of success, but it isn’t necessarily. I can’t I can’t say that I have a clear cut definition of my mind and success of what success is as an artist. But of course, there’s different aspects of it too. For me, there’s what does it mean to be successful in the studio making the work I want to make, right it has to feel like it’s completely my work, I have to feel like, I’m going into territory that feels, I use the word authentic a lot. I love that word map, it feels like it’s the work that only I can make. So there’s a level of success, I feel that comes from that.

Jessica Serran 13:20
In terms of a relationship to people who look at my art, you know, Success to me is when the person standing in front of it cries or has moved so deeply, because they feel like I’ve touched some part of their experience. It’s fine. I agree with that as a general whole. But I also think that they should cry and then buy it.

Matthew Dols 13:41
Sales is great. Yeah. I my opinion is like, yeah, I’m very, I’m sounding like a more and more shallow and petty, the longer I do this podcast and keep saying things like this, but I mean, my original idea before I started this podcast, and before I started asking people things like what is success and things like this is, I generally said, the most, the most sort of admirable thing that a person can do for an artist is to buy their work. Like, it’s nice to say, I love your work, or I was moved by your work or, or critic writes a great review about you or whatever. But really the thing that actually motivates artists to say like, okay, somebody really loved it so much that they were willing to pay money for it, and they wanted to have it in their lives and they wanted to then pass it on to their children and whatever else. That’s the thing that I strive for. I want people to want to have my work as part of their lives enough that they’re willing to put money to it.

Jessica Serran 14:40
I think in my mind, I know that sounds really petty and shallow now. No, I don’t think so. But I think I understand mindset enough, and I understand that there. There really are people I if somebody falls in love with my work and they genuinely do not have the means or believe that they can generate the means to buy it. For me. That doesn’t mean that it’s less of a success. I of course I want my work to sell as well. And, or we could barter. I love the barter system. No, we can’t.

Matthew Dols 15:12
I want a landlord that will let me barter for art and we’re good.

Jessica Serran 15:17
Yeah, I’m done with that whole bartering nation. No, I hate bartering. Just give me the money.

Matthew Dols 15:26
You definitely have taken marketing courses. I see. That’s good.

Jessica Serran 15:30
I mean, if it’s gonna be super useful and beneficial, maybe but I feel like as there’s this weird thing as artists, we’re, I guess it’s not doing something for free. But it often falls. It feels like it still falls into that category of Oh, like, Can you give me this or give me a discount? Or like, somehow it feels like it’s undervaluing? Oh, no, don’t kid yourself when I barter or barter hard, like, what am I bartered to? 16 by 20 inch photographs for an eight foot by five foot painting. Okay, so I barter hard. Like I’m not giving that stuff away when I barter. Okay? Again, the bartering is not like a losing proposition for me. Well, I think maybe sometimes I’ve been asked to birder but it’s not when I really wanted something. I guess that’s the difference. Yes. I hate the barter when basically the thing the other person has to offer is not something I want. Yeah, yeah. And it’s not order has to be an equal thing like that. You want something of theirs, and they want something of yours. And you know, that’s a good barter. Yeah. But yeah, a barter for something you don’t want is not agreed. I completely agree with you. Yeah, usually the thing I want more is the money.

Matthew Dols 16:39
It’s tough. You know, I’ve traded for a lot of art in my life. And I love my collections that I’ve gotten together because of trading for art. So and if I could find a landlord that would let me pay for my apartment or my house in artwork. That’s pretty good. That would work for you. It would work for me.

Jessica Serran 16:58
Yeah. See, I actually don’t like putting any pressure on myself to produce.

Matthew Dols 17:03
Oh, I’ve got tons of work I have. So I was, yeah, let me go back a second. I was in the United Arab Emirates before I moved here. And for six years, I was probably the most productive I’ve ever been in my entire life. And I was unable to exhibit it. Because I worked figuratively and it was in a Muslim country. So I came to Prague now and I have six years of work, ready to exhibit ready to sell ready to barter with so like, somebody wants barter, I got work for you. No problem. Tons of backlog. So that’s a little different. But let’s get back to your the whole business that you’re creating here. So you started in 2015, so four years ago? Not to be blunt about it, but like, how is it working? Like? Is it giving you some satisfaction? Is it giving you personal financial security is doing the thing that you’re sort of hoping it does for you?

Jessica Serran 18:04
It is Yeah, it? It definitely has taken some time. I mean, the first three years I was I mean, I think it’s important to talk about money. I basically doubled my income for the first three years so and it was more money than I had ever made consistently in my life. Okay, wait.

Matthew Dols 18:19
So just to clarify that. So like, first year, you made X amount of money. Second year two, you doubled year one, and then year three, you doubled year two? Yes. That’s pretty impressive for the first three years of any business.

Jessica Serran 18:31
Yeah, yeah. I mean, not that the first year was entirely sustainable.

Matthew Dols 18:35
The first year was like $100,

Jessica Serran 18:38
you know, I had been, I had figured out how to live very cheaply as an artist. So it was more than enough for me, let’s put it that way. So no, it’s worked really well. It has a lot of challenges. And of course, takes a lot of time. But for me, I really, up until now, I’ve wanted an equation where I wasn’t dependent on artwork selling. So there’s some other regular income coming in, of course, I have to, you know, it’s not like a nine to five job, but I’ve worked it out. So there’s regular income. And then when work sells, it’s fantastic. It’s extra sure. You know, I would like to at this point, now that the business is at a certain point, I want to flip back to putting even more attention on my art and getting it out there. But I kind of like this situation where I can pay the bills,

Matthew Dols 19:30
you know, and we all dream of that stability. Yeah. And be able to still, you know, save money or buy more whatever, bigger studio, more art supplies, better art supplies, whatever.

Jessica Serran 19:42
Yeah, it’s, it’s nice. I quite like it. And I feel the other thing too is. For me, I feel like I’ve always had a coach in me. And I actually, I think of what I do as I’m living my creative calling. I’m not just an artist, but I actually want to be To bring together all the things that I care about, and that I’m passionate about, and find a way to do all of them. So being a coach and working with other artists, it really satisfies a whole other part of me. And I actually wouldn’t only want to be in my studio all the time,

Matthew Dols 20:15
not me. I would love to be in my studio all the time. But what, but why did you choose to go down the path of like, let’s say, the teaching coaching, you’re using coaching, I would in my mind, I think teaching it versus like maybe like an art consultant, or some other sort of, you know, thing that involves art marketing or something like this, like, Where did art market being an artist, and then to learning art marketing, then how did you make that sort of leap to coaching,

Jessica Serran 20:43
I think I’ve always been a coach, in some ways, before I even knew that it existed as a field. So one is, I feel like I have a special ability to see people’s potential and what they’re really about. And the thing I actually care more about than art is the creative process. And how we can basically I can apply what I’ve learned to me in from making a piece of art to creating almost anything at this point. So, and I love, I’ve always been so interested in people’s experiences, their stories, you know, I’m a great listener, and I love I think that one of the world would be a different place if we were all asked really good questions regularly. And I don’t I’m not a I’m not a teacher in the sense that I don’t want to stand up and just lecture about what I know.

Matthew Dols 21:31
I am a teacher to say,

Jessica Serran 21:32
yeah, I’m not. So when I, for me coaching and when I learned about coaching, and how you can really help people work through their blocks and set goals and actually achieve certain things

Matthew Dols 21:45
do you basis on like, of course, I’ve read, what’s your name, Julia Cameron’s artist way and all those kinds of things, you are an art and fear, all these kinds of books. So like, is this the sort of the physical manifestation of something, things like that?

Jessica Serran 22:02
There’s a lot of those things in them. But most of what I teach is what I figured out through experience. So yeah, we have to work with the inner critic and sabotage, and procrastination, and you know, all of those pieces. Of course, there’s lots of things I’ve learned along the way, but I feel like it all of this came because artmaking was actually never that easy for me. Oh, well see, that’s different.

Matthew Dols 22:25
Yeah. So you like art making comes super easy for me. Like, literally, my father is a painter, my mother’s interior decorator. So like, it was just ingrained into me. On my first job, what not my first and my second job was working at the Smithsonian. So like, even this kind of stuff just came was just part of my life. It was we didn’t question and it was just like, Yeah, you do that? Okay. Yeah, I

Jessica Serran 22:48
come from a lineage of factory workers and farmers, very different. So it was a very, it was very different expectations of what I would possibly do with my life. And so when I finally got to art school, I felt like, I probably wasn’t an artist, because it was so hard. And basically, what was happening was the all the internal voices, were saying, this is a waste of time do something more valuable, this is impossible. It was just a, you know, a barrage of things that made it very hard for me to, to keep doing this thing that I felt so called to do. So I had to really learn a lot of tools to be able to continue showing up in the studio and do it with a lot more ease and, you know, not feel completely torture tortured all the time.

Matthew Dols 23:39
Sorry,

Jessica Serran 23:40
I don’t be. You know, it’s I think what I’ve discovered is I’m not the only artists like this.

Matthew Dols 23:47
Absolutely not. No, I mean, I’m somewhat just sort of playing devil’s advocate and taking the opposite position on you. But I have the same problems. You’re talking about all the things about procrastination, self doubt, self sabotage, I do all of those things. I’m not sitting here like, in any way trying to say like, Oh, no, my life is perfect. I’ve got it all figured out. If I had it all figured out, I wouldn’t create a podcast called the wise fool. have none of this figured out. And it’s part for me is that it is the process of trying to figure these things out. I mean, I’ve had to change my career, my career path, my career. I mean, I’ve gone from working in museums working in galleries being a roadie. I started working at Baskin Robbins when I was 14 years old. And then I’ve also I ran a nonprofit organization I’ve done public work, public sculpture programs I’ve taught at universities have done all these different kinds of things. And now on to the point where basically, I’ve had all these experiences and I’ve suddenly realized that I know nothing. And I don’t know where to go from here. And that’s what I’m doing with this podcast is like, I feel like there’s a lot of people with the with All the changes that are going on specifically the internet, social media, all these kinds of things like that the the older generation, I’m have an older generation, I’m 45 years old. In the arts, that’s an older generation. And we don’t know how to do that the ways of being part of the community are very different than they were when I was being taught when I was young. And so like, I’ve lost all my understanding of how the industry works. And so I think there are a lot of people sort of in that mid career kind of point where we’re just like, things have changed from underneath us. And we don’t know how to get our footing again and find that foundation. And I made the mistake. And I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, like, I moved too many times. And I didn’t create a good foundation, a good group of people, a good core group of people, good community and network and think this is my own mistake, but I’m trying to correct it now. So the we all are going through these things like I mean, it’s, it seems like everybody is going through them. The problem is nobody’s talking about it.

Jessica Serran 26:07
Well, and I think the thing that I’ve always done as an artist, and even now as a coach and a business owner, is what you’re doing with this, or how I perceive it is that you turned the question into art.

Matthew Dols 26:20
Don’t get me wrong. Yeah, I have a cunning plan of this, which is that I do this, potentially people more people will look me up on my website, they’ll see my art, maybe I’ll get some more exhibitions out of this, because I become known for doing this. But hopefully, my art will also gain some more traction because of this. So yeah, it’s a cunning little marketing plan my own.

Jessica Serran 26:40
Well, and for me, somebody had suggested this a long time ago. And I actually think there’s a lot of truth in it that basically, what I created with a quote, unquote, business is another body of work. In a lot of ways. It’s been an art project. I don’t necessarily frame it that way yet.

Matthew Dols 26:56
My wife constantly comes to me, she’s like, why don’t you do private lessons? Why don’t you do workshops once you did, and I’m like, every single one of these ideas are coming up with Don’t get me wrong, great ideas. They’re all new jobs. They’re all completely different things that take a completely different mindset, a completely different thought way of doing different marketing techniques, different practice different contacts to be able to accomplish them. So they the hard part that I find is a lot of us have to do these side hustles. You know, we have to do lots of little jobs, basically. So you’ve got your two jobs, you’ve got your job in the studio, then you’ve got your job as coaching. And I’m betting maybe do something else also. Not at this point. No. Okay. Okay, man at this point. Yeah. But recently, you did something else? Absolutely. Yeah. So we always have to do like, at any given day, I have three jobs, literally, every day I teach for an online university. I do portfolio reviews, and I do podcasts. And then I also have to be in the studio. So I guess technically, I have four jobs that I’m supposed to do every day. I don’t get to all four of them every day. But it’s exhausting to have to shuffle between these different things. How do we deal with that sort of new way of thinking because like, this is not the way it was 30 years ago, 40 years ago, maybe even 20 years ago, this seems to be something that’s new in the arts industry that we have to do many multiple small jobs in order to get by,

Jessica Serran 28:24
I think it becomes a question to have, what kind of small jobs you want to be doing. You know, for me, I found one that was really intimately connected with the art I create. So I actually don’t think in a lot of ways, the way I think about it is, I have a gift that transcends what I can do on a canvas. And I essentially am doing that in this conversation. I’m doing it when I’m on a coaching call, it doesn’t actually matter what I’m doing that much. But I feel like the gift, like the essential thing that Jessica does in the world that benefits people comes through in all of these different ways. So once I figured out what that was, it became much easier for me to see it’s not like I’m just running this business over here. And I turn off parts of myself and then turn on other parts when I’m in the studio. But they’re actually manifestations of a very similar thing.

Matthew Dols 29:17
What and that’s a conversation that I’ve had with numerous people which is when as a creative a creative things that doesn’t matter, right? or visual arts, whatever. But do you choose should you choose to get your side hustles your part time jobs in a creative field to also be creative through those? Or do you get jobs that have no creative element to them so that you don’t have to sort of use up your creative capital. At some job. That’s not your art.

Jessica Serran 29:46
I think it’s really person specific. I think the other dangerous I know that there’s a danger to right because I can easily become the business owner and not an artist. You know, when I was graduating in the Bay Area, there was a opening to do the installation work at the SF MoMA. And I had done construction in my life, you know, I’ve, I’ve done the other odd jobs. And I thought about applying for it. And the chair of our department said to me at the time, just be careful because you are not going to be perceived as the artist in that position, you will be perceived as the person putting on exhibitions for other artists, and don’t think that you can then use that position behind the scenes to get your art on the walls.

Matthew Dols 30:29
It’s completely correct. I’ve known numerous preparers at different museums. But on the other hand, I know a friend of mine, who was who became a preparer at the Corcoran Museum of Art in Washington, DC, and he ended up getting to be the prepared for Paul Allen and his private collection. So and he’s been doing that flying all around the world being prepared and a curator for his collection for decades now, then that’s, that’s pretty good. I’d probably be happy doing that.

Jessica Serran 30:56
I know, I think it goes back to your question of what success for each person, and how can you create the configuration that actually works for you. And that’s going to look differently for every person, you know, there was a time where I was doing construction and painting walls, you know, in Berkeley, California, while I was getting my degree, and part of me loved that because it was so monotonous. And I could just shut off. And it worked during that time. At this point, I happen to really like the configuration that I’ve come up with, it’s not perfect, don’t get me wrong, it’s not perfect. You know, sometimes the amount of time it takes to run a business, it you know, outweighs the amount of time I can get to my studio.

Matthew Dols 31:38
But the we’re sitting here in your studio, it looks like your business is literally in the same room as your studio. It is okay,

Jessica Serran 31:44
they’re intimately linked at this point. I, I’m a really disciplined person. So I have that on my side, which basically means and it works well actually living in Prague, because most of my clients are in different time zones. So mornings are my studio time. And I get to the studio almost every morning, I don’t let business stuff creep in then. So I’ve been able to find a separation. Do I want some more studio time in the near future?

Matthew Dols 32:12
Absolutely. You mentioned that most of your clients for your coaching are actually not in the Czech Republic,

Jessica Serran 32:22
hardly any are.

Matthew Dols 32:24
And that I find very interesting. So you’ve chosen to be in the Czech Republic as your personal lifestyle. But yet, most of your clients and people that pay for your services and desire your services even are not in the place where you live. So how do these people find you? Why do these people find you like, give me a little bit of like, how do you get clients from all over the world?

Jessica Serran 32:45
online marketing, Facebook, social media, I hardly advertise and knock on this table that I won’t knock on now. Because we’ll make a noise on your podcast. It actually haven’t tried that hard. So I think it goes back to this marketing, it goes back to understanding who your work is really for. So I don’t think that as artists we should ever make, you know, figure out who wants our work and then make it for those people.

Matthew Dols 33:13
But that’s backwards,

Jessica Serran 33:15
I spent a lot of time looking at who are my people, I think about it both in terms of my paintings, and then also for the courses I run. And so I have online communities, you know, I use a lot of social media, and I found these people or they found me.

Matthew Dols 33:32
Okay, I love that you use social media very a lot. Because this is a question I asked a lot of people like basically, does social media actually give you returns? You know, being an artist you posted your artwork up? Do you actually get sales from it, etc, etc. Yours is a little bit different because you sort of have a business you’re using, but it’s still an arts business. So it works for you. So what do you what have you seen? What have you found that works? Well for you? Or, or even better? What was a mistake you made?

Jessica Serran 34:03
Well, the mistake I’m currently making is that I’m not analyzing this stuff. Well, so there’s been a lot of blind luck. If I’m being totally honest. I think it’s a blind. I think it’s blind luck in combination with sincerity and being able to connect with people on social media. So okay, if I put on my business person hat, I don’t analyze shit. I don’t look at analytics. And I should, right I’m not tracking things. So there’s some things to understand. There’s definitely some territory to get into if you really want to expand your reach.

Matthew Dols 34:37
Wait, I want to ask though, okay, because I build websites. I teach WordPress and all that kind of stuff. And so I use Google Analytics on my website. But social media insights are very different. Are you talking about like, paying for a sort, some sort of insights or just the insights that come sort of free with Facebook and Instagram?

Jessica Serran 34:57
I hardly do any and I realized that It would benefit me to explore it a little bit more.

Matthew Dols 35:03
So because I’ve always wondered, because there are these outside companies that do insights, whatever you analytics, whatever you want to call it, and I’ve never paid for any of them. But I’m always wondering like, what do they offer? That’s so much better than what I can get from Facebook or Instagram, or Google Analytics that is worth paying for?

Jessica Serran 35:24
I don’t know that I entirely have the answer to that. But I was working with somebody on an SEO audit for my site. And it was very clear that he knew a lot more about this business than I did. I hate SEO

Matthew Dols 35:36
so much, so much. They recently changed it like what the problem is, it’s constantly changing. Like, it’s never the targets constantly moving. That. I think only in the last five years, they changed it so that like every page you build on a website should have a minimum of 300 words on it. Or else it’s not meeting search engine optimization. Well, I’m a visual artist, I put an image up and I just put like a title and a size. And that’s it. That’s not 300 words. How am I supposed to do 300 words on a page?

Jessica Serran 36:09
Yeah, it’s a moving target. You’re absolutely right. And I’m not the expert. I think that there’s a lot of putting myself out there. And like I said, understanding the things that this is more for my courses, I don’t actually expect to sell my art online one because I sell large scale paintings primarily. And at this stage,

Matthew Dols 36:32
Damien Hirst,

Jessica Serran 36:34
Damien Hirst is not Jessica Saran, okay. It’s not that it’s not possible. I haven’t put a lot of energy and intention into that. So when it comes to selling or finding, you know, new artists to work with, for the courses, coaching clients, it’s has a lot to do with connection.

Matthew Dols 36:55
You know, it’s all about connections. Yeah.

Jessica Serran 36:58
Yeah. And understanding what a marketing funnel is. And you know, it’s basically about building relationship. I can say, marketing funnel, and some people might think that sounds really icky and sleazy.

Matthew Dols 37:09
I don’t even understand what it means.

Jessica Serran 37:11
It’s basically what it means is, you wouldn’t meet somebody off the street and say, Hey, do you want to buy my large scale painting? I think you’ll really like it. You meet a new person, and you’d be like, Hey, I’m Jessica, who are you? Oh, what do you like? What do you do? You start to get to know each other. Right? And it’s like you don’t it’s a process. It’s a process of building a relationship with people that offs it creates some trust. Right? So these kind of basic things where, you know, you can try to sell something online, and you know, just throw it up and try to promote it. Well, what people need to come across your stuff. Usually, a lot of times,

Matthew Dols 37:53
you’re just making me think about like, all the times that like either I worked in a gallery, or I was the artists were like, you would just go in cold to a gallery completely not knowing anybody there. And they are they don’t know you in any way. And you’re like, Hi, I’m Matt, I, I make art. Do you want to sell my art? Ideally, it’s now looking back now that I’ve done this and had more experiences. I’m like, Oh, my God, I was such an idiot. Like, it’s just not what it is.

Jessica Serran 38:18
No, it’s about relationship Really? Well, by the end, it’s about

Matthew Dols 38:21
building long term relationships, not short term relationships, and not relationships that are, I will be friends with this person, because they will somehow benefit my career directly. That’s the one of the worst things you can do. And I’m as guilty of it as every other arrogant white man from America, I’m sure that we try to use friends and associates for our own benefit.

Jessica Serran 38:47
Yeah, yeah. That sucks.

Matthew Dols 38:50
Yeah, but I’m self aware of it at this point. So I’m hoping but I’m not doing it anymore. But But I mean, I can remember a time in my life when I was trying to strategically be friends with certain people, because I believed that somehow they could benefit my career. And that’s just not healthy. It’s not it’s not going to benefit your career at all. No,

Jessica Serran 39:09
yeah. And it sucks to be treated that way. I’ve had it happen to me. That’s awful. I’m sure I’ve done it, too. We all do it in various ways.

Matthew Dols 39:19
I just suddenly feel really pathetic.

Jessica Serran 39:22
Okay, you’re just human.

Matthew Dols 39:23
Well, we make mistakes. And hopefully we learn from our mistakes. And that was definitely one of my mistakes that I remember distinctly from a particular time in my life that I’m like, that was bad. But anyways, moving forward, though, so you were sitting in your studio, and you have shown me a book that you made the Field Guide to the Czech psyche. And that it’s an interesting thing in and of itself, probably a little check specific for most clients, and most of them, you know, people, but what I found interesting that you talked about was how you got it produced. So tell me a little bit about that.

Jessica Serran 40:00
Yeah, so there was a couple of ways I did it. So this was the project I mentioned, I had been living in this small town, I had a nervous breakdown, and I got a grant from the Canadian government to get this project started. So I got a couple $1,000, which I naively thought would be enough money to finish the project that I naively thought would take six months. So partway through that, I realized I’m going to have to find another funding source. So of course, part of it was my own money. But then in order to so it’s, the final product is a book. And there’s a collection of posters that go I made paintings. Based on these, it’s all about the conversations I had with people who are Czech, from when I first moved here trying to figure out what is this place? What does it mean to be Czech? How does your identity How is it influenced by the place you were born?

Matthew Dols 40:49
if people wanted to buy this at this point, is it available anywhere?

Jessica Serran 40:53
It’s no longer online, but I have some copies so they can just reach out to me, we

Matthew Dols 40:57
will link to your website in the in the show notes. Yeah.

Jessica Serran 41:00
So I wanted to produce this art book, and I wanted it to be designed beautifully. And I also wanted to have an exhibition at the end. So I ended up crowdfunding over $13,000, to finish all of this to print it, to have the exhibition to pay the designer, all of the things associated with you know, getting it finalized.

Matthew Dols 41:23
Now, you say you crowdfunded it, what did you use Kickstarter, Indiegogo? What do you do?

Jessica Serran 41:28
I used Indiegogo, you

Matthew Dols 41:29
go, why did you choose Indiegogo over any of the other ones?

Jessica Serran 41:32
I’m trying to think I think at the time, I couldn’t use Kickstarter, as a Canadian. I may be wrong.

Matthew Dols 41:41
I can’t. I think it was I was gonna use one or the other. I feel like that was the reason at the time. So this was back in 2013. Teen I think they’re still like, I can’t get this podcast onto Google Play with Google or Android play or whatever. I can’t get it because I’m in the Czech Republic. They won’t let me publish it there. So those kinds of limitations still exist. Yeah, I

Jessica Serran 42:05
think that was it at the time. I don’t know how it’s set up now.

Matthew Dols 42:09
So yeah, I actually, and and I had been learning about business and marketing. So you know, you were asking me when we were on break, how did I basically do this? What did it require? I am so wanting to know the how a creative person created creating something very personal to them, can use these kinds of crowdfunding things to make some products. So yeah, I mean, besides the, you know, all the big huge things we see out there, the gadgets, and all these kinds of things. I mean, like this is an art project. So like, how do you use in the, you know, these crowdfunding sources to fund art?

Jessica Serran 42:47
I would say there’s a couple of things story was a huge part of it. So I really tried to bring people on the journey with me. So I started, I had started around that time doing videos for some of these online courses, I think, no, no, actually, crowdfunding was the first time I actually started doing any kind of video online. And so I would go to places where I would go to the place where I was having the exhibition, and I would shoot a video talking about the project there. Or I would go to the town where I had interviewed somebody, and I just kept turning on the camera. And I just so I think story. And the other thing that worked. I didn’t take no for an answer. You know, when I did the math, and I realized it was going to be over $13,000. That number blew my mind. But I was like, What other choice do I have? I’ve committed I’ve set and this is, this is one of my other tricks. I I booked the exhibition, I already told people this was happening. I had met with the printer. I was like, game on, this is happening. I’m not stopping until I have all the money I need to do it. And I just kept showing up for I think I ran it for 2425 days, the whole campaign. And, you know, over the years, I obviously have a good sized network of people. And I made sure that the rewards were interesting, of course, there was copies of the book, but there was also I would do private drawings for people. You know, there was experiences with me that they could get as a reward. And I think that people just caught got caught up in my enthusiasm. And they wanted to believe that this was possible as well.

Matthew Dols 44:33
That’s really the nature of crowdfunding, though, in general, trying to get but the question then. So like, I can imagine somebody out there listening to this podcast go, Oh, I did a crowdfunding thing and it didn’t succeed. What’s the How do you? How do you translate all the connections you made all the relationships you have throughout your life into getting them to fund your project.

Jessica Serran 44:59
For me, it’s Similar to what I do to fill an exhibition, I just asked people, I write them. That’s hard. No, I guess kind of hard. But I spent a lot of time during my campaign writing personal emails. I also had a couple of articles written, I really reached out to people personally, because I don’t know about you. But if somebody sends, you know, this mass email, like, Hey, I’m having this exhibition. Maybe I’ll go maybe it looks interesting. But if the person I know says, Hey, Jess, I love to have you come to my show. I’m super excited about this new work, it’s going on my calendar, there’s a much higher percentage that I’m actually going to show up and be there. You know,

Matthew Dols 45:41
it’s funny, nobody ever does that to me. Nobody, I never get emails like that.

Jessica Serran 45:47
I whenever I have an exhibition, that’s how I feel exhibitions. I spend a day or two privately inviting people taking the time. It’s about relationship again. And I did the same thing with this campaign like I was on it.

Matthew Dols 46:04
Maybe I just have very selfish friends. And they just don’t do that. I don’t know.

Jessica Serran 46:07
I think we’re not with we, you know, there’s Facebook events. There’s mass emails, there’s so many reasons not.

Matthew Dols 46:14
I love Facebook events, actually, because I can be looking at Facebook on my phone, and I can just hit Add to calendar. And it’s done. So I don’t have to like copy and paste anything. I don’t have to like be like, Did i transpose that correctly? To get the date? Right, the address? So easy. I love that resource. Yeah, I love it to go to more events from Facebook than anything else, simply because of the ease of being able to put it onto my calendar. Yeah, that lazy. Yeah.

Jessica Serran 46:42
Yeah, so that’s basically how I did it. And I literally just decided it was happening. I was gonna do whatever it takes whatever it took to make it happen. And it did.

Matthew Dols 46:52
Did you so you met your goal? Did you exceed it? Or did you like just squeak in?

Jessica Serran 46:56
Yeah, I exceeded it by a couple $100.

Matthew Dols 46:59
Decent? Yep. That’s tough. That scares the hell out of me. Because I’ll be honest, I’ve thought about doing it. Because I’ve got here over the course of my career, I’ve probably got like seven books that I could publish of, like, all these different portfolios that I’ve done. And the idea of basically, like, putting my heart and soul into creating this crowdfunded thing, and then it potentially not working, is just a crushing fear that I’m like, I, you know, because because you’re gonna, you’re gonna go through all the trouble to create the crowdfunding things like the bonuses, the videos, the story, the whole thing like that. And then you will email all your friends, you will contact all your friends, and then when it fails, that is crushing. Now, I’ve never done it. So even just the fear of it failing, like that is crushing, because everybody will know that I did it, because I asked them to help. And then they will all know that it failed.

Jessica Serran 47:58
Yes, I was listening to one coach recently, she had this whole podcast on failure tolerance. And I always joke that every artist has a whole folder of rejection letters, it comes with the territory,

Matthew Dols 48:10
I have multiple binders.

Jessica Serran 48:13
It doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. But I think I actually see this a lot, especially as I’m working with other artists and coaching them. You know, let’s say, because I’ll work with artists who might also want to develop their own course or workshop or do some teaching or figure out that other income stream? Well, sometimes I see that they’ll offer it once, and they don’t get 27 people in their first course. And then they give up. Well, I can assure you, I have launched courses where I’ve had one or no people sign up. You got to keep going. You have to be all in or it’s never gonna work.

Matthew Dols 48:47
Oh, yeah. But this podcast is the same. I launched in you know, 1520 people listened in the first week. Now, we’re substantially higher than that. And hopefully, and every week, it seems to be progressing to more and more and more and more. So you have to put the time and effort in for sure. And you have to start from the bottom. But, but the crowdfunding, I gotta admit, that scares the shit out of me. That feels utterly, in potentially a huge embarrassment. And I have a fear of embarrassment. So

Jessica Serran 49:21
yeah, I guess it wasn’t that scared of that. I don’t know why. I just I was so hell bent. And I just wasn’t going to stop. So I just went for it. I think it was a little bit of naivete.

Matthew Dols 49:37
Well, I think you also had the benefit of some pre existing support also. So like you were also able to say like, Oh, this is partially funded by the Canadian government. But that does help a lot, at least emotionally to say, somebody thought this was worthwhile enough to already invest in it. But I’m talking about like, where you have nobody investing in is like it’s like this is my dream hunger. Put This thing is like, so scary.

Jessica Serran 50:03
Well, that’s something you know, I’ve, I’ve obviously research and I did some studying around chrome crowdfunding before. And since and even when you’re applying for grants, it’s great if you can have multiple supporters. So depending on the scale of what you’re trying to do, I mean, that’s a great thing to start with is even if you can get somebody to give you $500, and somebody else this business to say, we’ll do the design for free, or these kinds of things, you know, to have more people on board is is a really great place to start with a campaign.

Matthew Dols 50:35
Yeah, I mean, the one thing that people always say about like grants and stuff like this, like a matching grant is always going to, you’re going to get more money, you’re going to get more support, you’re going to get everything the more people you get sort of signing on. So matching grants are better than basically putting all your eggs in one basket and trying to get only one grant. Because if you don’t get it, you get nothing. Yeah. Whereas you can, if you get one smaller grant, you can leverage that to get some other bigger grants. So it’s a, again, it’s more relationships and sort of building on these things than just putting it all in one place.

Jessica Serran 51:09
Yeah, and, you know, speaking of the, the, you know, basically the vulnerability, the embarrassment around it. The other thing that I do, and I teach is, it’s not just the external things you’re doing, it’s not just the action steps, it’s not just the videos you’re making. It’s also your mindset, right? It’s all of the limiting beliefs that we have around what isn’t isn’t possible. So you can believe that I had to do a shit ton of journaling. During this process, I had to look at what are my beliefs, I had to deal with the people who sent me the nasty emails, because I was even doing this in the first place. You know, there was a lot that came up in the process, you know, I had never generated $13,000 for an art project before. So I was pushing myself into new territory. And of course, it brought up a lot of fear as well. But I worked through it. I think that’s the thing, I became aware that that was also part of the work I had to do to make this happen.

Matthew Dols 52:08
Tell me a little bit more about the coaching the the act of practice of what can people expect if they choose to take on a coach? Yeah,

Jessica Serran 52:19
I’ll start by saying this. I my coaching is all geared for artists. So it’s not some kind of pure life coaching or business coaching. It’s really to support artists, because I understand it. So I would say if I were to simplify, it’s really about actually identifying what you want. What are your desires? What are your visions, what are your goals, and then setting some timelines around that and then basically, together moving forward to accomplish those things and clear out a big part of it is clearing out everything that’s stopping you. So a lot of it is having to get really uncomfortable and do the things that we’d rather not have to do, but that are actually required to get where we want to go. And I would say combined with I think one of the things that I do really well is I I see people, right. So a lot of the artists I work with, they fundamentally feel like there’s not really a place for them. They you know, they struggle to make art. They feel like they’re too much. They’re too sensitive. It’s mostly women, you know, and so it’s partially having somebody on their side who actually sees what they perceive as weaknesses as strengths. And specifically helping them to bring those things into their artwork. And then into these other things they want to do like have exhibitions or get publicity or get grants.

Matthew Dols 53:44
You mentioned that most of your clients are women. So what’s your sort of gender breakdown?

Jessica Serran 53:50
95% women at this point, there was more men at the beginning, but I have fewer men who are working with me at this point.

Matthew Dols 53:58
When I was running a community darkroom, I thought that all of my clients would be men. I’m like, oh, men love photography, men love being in the darkroom. 90 95% were women. It’s a very interesting thing that you know, not a sort of non academic courses and classes for arts seem to be pretty prevalent with with women.

Jessica Serran 54:20
Well, the people I work with, too, they’re also really interested in personal development and spirituality. So it’s a little bit like if you walk into most yoga classes, larger percentage of women,

Matthew Dols 54:32
you were talking about setting goals. One of the questions that I always ask at the end of my podcast, so I will sort of jump this forwards that you brought up the topic of setting up goals. One of my plans for this podcast is that I’ve created a quantifiable goal, an outcome that will show that I have learned how the art world works effectively enough to be able to have a piece of my art Mark exhibit in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. So, what can I do to achieve that goal?

Jessica Serran 55:08
Well, that’s a good question. I, I think a lot in terms of breaking it down as well. So what can you you know, what’s the timeframe for that? What can you do you know, in the next four months, six months to move closer to that? I think that’s one part of it. I think there’s so many different aspects of it. I also do a lot of work to help people do that, like I said earlier, the internal stuff that has to happen. So the mindset, what do you believe, you know, what is actually going to stop you from making that happen? And then looking at what are the action steps? What are the the actual things that you need to be doing in the world to make that a reality? So certainly, looking at both of those, and constantly working on both of those is one aspect of it, I would say.

Matthew Dols 56:01
So this is this is literally something that I one thing I didn’t get to mention, whatever recommendations you give me, I will do. And I will keep everybody involved throughout the process. So every recommendation I get, I will soon I’m going to start doing these little in turn podcast, basically, where I keep everybody involved in all of the things, the successes and the failures, that I in my attempt to achieve the goal of having a piece of my artwork in the Museum of Modern Art. Because this is one of the things that I think a lot of people don’t talk about in the arts, like, generally, we see the success, we see the exhibition, we see the results of the grant, we see the book publishing, we see the positive, but we don’t hear about the trials and travails, the difficulties, the failures, so I’m going to actually do whatever you tell me to do. And I will keep everybody updated on the process.

Jessica Serran 56:58
So so it is a little bit hard without knowing you better. But one thing that gains a lot of traction consistently for myself and artists is if you were to, on a weekly basis, do the last thing you wanted to do.

Matthew Dols 57:12
I do that every day

Jessica Serran 57:13
you do, what does it,

Matthew Dols 57:15
change the cat litter?

Jessica Serran 57:17
Not like that, in connection to this goal? If you think about really who, here’s how I think about it, who do you have to become in order to get your work into the MoMA? Because if you were already that person, now your work would already be in the MoMA, but you’re not yet. So you are going through a developmental process to get your work in the MoMA. So if you can think about who is the version of me that has their work in the MoMA? How are they showing up? And how are they operating? And I bet if you break that down and look at it, there’s going to be a lot of things that you would rather not have to do that are going to make you really uncomfortable to get there. And if you start doing those things, I think you probably gain a lot of traction.

Matthew Dols 58:06
I need to think more about that. Okay. I mean, it’s a legitimate thing to have to think about. The biggest thing that everybody keeps telling me that I have to do is research, research research. And that’s the one thing I really dread doing because it’s boring and dry and uninteresting. So what do they tell you, you need to research curators, the best way to get to museum exhibitions is generally through the cure that you do research over the history of the space. So whatever we do, whether it’s Tate, modern Guggenheim, whatever, Mama, you research, previous curators that have curated exhibits, either similar in style, or similar in aesthetic or similar and medium to the things that you do. And then you approach them directly, basically. And then they would be the sort of liaison for you to then get into that institution. So that’s but I have to go back through, you know, decades of exhibitions at MoMA to try and find curators that you’re there that that’s just yeah, that’s I’ve been procrastinating on that horribly. Because this is that this element of do it this thing that I’m taking outside input on what to do, and then I’m doing and then I’m going to tell everybody about it and keep them involved is probably one of the most vulnerable things I’ve probably ever done in my life. Because generally, again, people don’t talk about these failures. And and like I’ve already in my mind, I’ve already got what the first podcast about this is going to sound B topic, it’s going to be the topic of procrastination, because I’ve been procrastinating doing that part of the podcast for like five weeks now. So yeah,

Jessica Serran 59:49
it’s a really great question. I love that you have this goal. The other thing that I am a firm believer in is that you It’s not always that easy to know exactly what to do. And that there’s also an aspect of, it’s like, yeah, we can think we need to do all of this research. But also, that’s why I think it’s a lot. achieving goals is a is a creative process, because you also have to be in the process and wait for inspiration sometimes. Or, you know, when I’m painting, I get a lot of insight about, Oh, I should do this to have the next exhibition or Oh, God, I need to send so and so an email. And I find that most of the things that I’ve achieved have never been super linear, because I’ve plotted it all out and said, If I just do these six things, it will get me to this goal. But instead, I’m constantly showing up and being curious, you know, what’s one thing? What’s one inspired thing I could do today to get me closer to that goal? And, you know, some of the best exhibitions I’ve had are because I just happened to walk into a gallery and talk to so and so. And they said, Oh, I need you to meet this person. So I think a lot of times, we have to be asking really great open ended questions, you know, what’s it going to take to get me into the MoMA? And wait for inspiration to come in?

Matthew Dols 1:01:08
We tag now too, by the way, I’ve created a hashtag for I think it’s exhibit at MoMA, or exhibit my work at mo or Chanel, show my work at MoMA?

Jessica Serran 1:01:19
And why does it matter to you so much?

Matthew Dols 1:01:21
It doesn’t really, but it was the idea that, that what I think is a great element of this podcast is basically talking about things that artists and creative people generally don’t talk about. So one of those things was, for me, is that personal journey. So basically, I wanted to create a literal, personal journey that every buddy can follow along with, that they can sort of experience through me, basically. So I will be the guinea pig I will be will be the wise for I will be the one that will make the mistakes on their behalf to try to learn how to navigate the arts industry, for better or for worse.

Jessica Serran 1:01:59
And is that tied into your definition of success.

Matthew Dols 1:02:02
I’ve been asked this numerous times recently. It’s hard. My general working definition of success is it’s hard. But I’m sitting here I’ve got one that I generally use on a day to day basis. But then of course, there’s the ego in me that has a different one. So on the one hand, a certain definition of success is being a being able to have the time the money in the space to simply do whatever I want to do. To me that is a definite, I would believe that my life was successful. If I was able to have the time, money and space to do my creative thing and not have to do anything else. That would be great. The ego in me, would like to either have my artwork in the history books, as an example is the movement of style, whatever. Or of course, be have some exhibitions in a major institution. Yeah, we all want that. We all have egos. I think I hope maybe it’s just me.

Jessica Serran 1:03:15
What would I when I put on my coach hat, what’s interesting to me is the second definition has a lot more energy.

Matthew Dols 1:03:23
The second definition is oddly probably the easier one to accomplish.

Jessica Serran 1:03:28
And do you know why? You know what aspect of your work should go into the history books already? Why is wide? Why does it? Why does it matter?

Matthew Dols 1:03:40
Why does it matter? I feel like I’m being psychoanalyze right now. But I’m gonna let it go. It’s fine. Why does it matter? Um, it’s funny, I’ve had this conversation with a number of other people who have talked to and why does it matter? I think part of it is is that being raised in America, which is very capitalistic, and very, they’re very overly supportive. In many ways, that’s not true in other places like here, that I was raised, that basically, I could be anything I wanted to be. And I could be the best in the world at it. Like, these are the kinds of phrases that were given to me as a child that you can be whatever you want to be, and you can be the best in the world. So why not? Why can’t I be?

Jessica Serran 1:04:35
Yeah, for me, it’s a terrible reason. But I think, I think the question of, you know, well, I feel like it’s about the deeper motivation, which I think really matters, you know,

Matthew Dols 1:04:50
and I’ve had conversations with people that have basically said, like, I’ve had friends who’ve had exhibitions in places like MoMA and they’re the artists are no more satisfied. Right are happy with their lives like it. It was a goal for them. And then when they achieved it, it did nothing for them.

Jessica Serran 1:05:07
Yeah, and I’m a big believer, and I do believe we all have a purpose, something that we’re actually here to do. So for me, if this is aligned with your purpose, that’s fantastic. But if it’s just an interesting, empty pursuit.

Matthew Dols 1:05:24
Well, I’ll tell you a story that I don’t tell too many people. And now I’m telling it to everybody is that I, when I was working in San Francisco, I was working in a gallery. And this guy walked in at random and we were like, Hi, you know, do you have any questions about the art and we got to talk. And he turns out, this guy ran a website called astro.com, which is a astrological website. Now my boss, the man, the owner of the gallery was a huge person, big advocate. Like, when we hung an exhibition, we had to be sure to put a red piece in a particular place because it Fung Shweta, doing and all this kind of jazz. So she paid to have all of our astrological charts done. And when they did the all of the astrological charts, the guy turned to me when when he was done with mine and said, You, you’re gonna change the world. I love it. And I’m just like, great. No pressure. I’m like, thanks. Like, I didn’t have enough pressure on myself. Now, you just told me I’m supposed to change. He said. He said, like, I have the same things in my star chart is like Mahatma Gandhi and Winston Churchill and all these other people. And I’m just like, great. No pressure.

Jessica Serran 1:06:40
And what do you want to change about the world the most?

Matthew Dols 1:06:44
At this moment, what I want to change is I want to be I want the arts to be more with the art industry to be able to support artists, like I’m tired of the idea of starving artists. That shouldn’t be true that shouldn’t be necessary. We don’t hear about starving CEOs, starving bankers, like why do artists have to be starving? That’s just ridiculous. So why can’t that change?

Jessica Serran 1:07:18
This is beautiful. This, this feels like your why this is why you’re really doing it?

Matthew Dols 1:07:24
Well, it’s because I want to be I mean, how many artists do we both know, between us, like, literally, between us that support themselves purely by making art?

Jessica Serran 1:07:35
Not many, I could

Matthew Dols 1:07:36
think of maybe two. And they’re not living great standards of life, that you know, they’re living, they’re sustaining themselves. But why? Why is it somebody who has a talent to make a creative thing has to be starving, whereas a person who has a talent to sell something, or market something, or come up with some algorithm to create some banking system or stock market thing? Why can they make a lot of money for their skill, but our skill is not supported or paid or sustainable? Even that’s, that’s another issue is sustainability. Because I’ve had conversations about artists that they work on a project and they work and we’re and then like, the the market changes. And so even though they’re making the same quality of work, they’re putting the same amount of effort in and they do their work hasn’t changed. The markets interest has changed. So now therefore, they’re no longer making anywhere near as much money as they did. Yes, that doesn’t happen in other businesses. Well, bankers suddenly don’t have market shifts and earn have different salaries.

Jessica Serran 1:08:45
Yeah, and Amen. And I totally get this. And I feel like that’s, that’s even why I say, you know, who do you need to become to make this a reality? Because,

Matthew Dols 1:08:53
preacher, man,

Jessica Serran 1:08:54
well, I too, feel like I’m definitely on a mission that I don’t want. I also don’t want artists to starve. I don’t want them to believe that what they’re doing isn’t a valuable contribution. And I feel like once we start to treat and appreciate what we’re doing in a different way, others also start to treat and appreciate what we’re doing in a different way,

Matthew Dols 1:09:13
right, which is my point, which is that it’s not about the artists treating it this way. It’s about the rest of society treating artists this way, like everybody doesn’t fit like my own brother will look at my artwork and be like, my five year old kid can make more interesting stuff. Like I mean that we’re so marginalized and down sort of looked down upon look down on the outside of society and the outside culture yet we’re the people that define culture. Literally. We’re the ones that define what the plays are going to be what the movies are going to be what you see on TV, what you decorate your home with the all of these things. Start with people like you and me.

Jessica Serran 1:09:59
Absolutely. I think there’s probably a number of different ways to do it. I think one of the ways is also through for, for me, it’s working with the artists directly. Right? Because something does profoundly change when we show up differently. You know, when we can show up confidently believing more in what we do, talking about what we do as artists celebrating it, you know, having exhibitions because we believe we should, we can that it’s interesting, hopefully, the work is also interesting. But I think that something changes in the way people experience it as well, when we’re able to shift the way that we perceive it.

Matthew Dols 1:10:39
Yeah, and the hard. The hard part, of course, is that, like, when I was a kid, I was always taught that it’s easier to steer a boat, if you’re on the boat. So trying to be part of the art market, and trying to course, correct it in this way, is easier than trying to be an outsider trying to sort of steer the boat in some way. So the issues that like, while I want certain elements to change, I do also have to participate in it in order to help manifest that change. So it’s a balancing act. And it’s difficult because I don’t want to sit here acting like some arrogant cheerleader like, Oh, no, we, we should be treated equally to whatever else. And it’s not, it’s not really the way to go. And because it’s gonna turn people off as much as it’ll it’ll, you know, turn people on to it. So, yeah.

Jessica Serran 1:11:29
Well, it’s one of the things that I believe into. And I often say to artists, you know, if something doesn’t exist, and you want it, it’s your job to create it. Now, it’s more complicated. There’s a lot of other factors. But I think that is one big aspect of it, you know, deciding that we also have the power to create certain things, and that we’re not just at the mercy of the system that already exists.

Matthew Dols 1:11:53
Yeah, totally. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I, there are certain elements of the system that I think are fabulous. The whole gallery system in the eighth grade, if it’s done correctly, and well. But on the other hand, there are other things that I just don’t know enough about. And again, this is sort of why I’m doing this podcast because I don’t understand the benefits of art fairs. Like I don’t get those residencies, some I understand some, I don’t understand grants, I totally get the reason for grants. But on the other hand, I’ve seen a lot of grants that are given to things that I don’t understand why they’re given to them. So like, I think that’s more about the, the committees and the judges. And the criteria for grants, I think is sort of maybe sometimes questionable. But there’s just a lot going on. And it all seems to be sort of behind the scenes. It’s not talked about, it’s not open, it’s not transparent and mean, artists as a general whole, like if you went out into the world and you like walked up to 10 different people, and one of them was an artist, that person would probably be the most open and transparent of the 10 people randomly on the street. But yet when it comes to the business of the arts, least transparent,

Jessica Serran 1:13:01
often

Matthew Dols 1:13:02
Yeah, that’s why I’m here.

Jessica Serran 1:13:04
I’m so glad you’re doing this. Hopefully, it’ll

Matthew Dols 1:13:07
do something. Time will tell. Yeah, no, man, we’ll see. Thank you very much for your time.

Jessica Serran 1:13:14
You’re welcome. My pleasure.

 

 

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com