Transcript for Episode 014 – Curator, Hagai Segev (Israel & Czech Republic)

Published on September 5, 2019

Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-curator-hagai-segev-israel/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly for me.

Hagai Segev 0:14
Hi, guy. So I give my name is a Hebrew name, which is a bit too difficult to pronounce. But it’s Hagai Segev.

Matthew Dols 0:22
Give a guy so give

Hagai Segev 0:24
Yes, it’s

Matthew Dols 0:25
not so hard. You just recently moved to Prague,

Hagai Segev 0:28
moved to Prague about three years ago.

Matthew Dols 0:31
And what brought you here,

Hagai Segev 0:33
I was looking for change in life and the change in scenery. And to get to the kind of the source of culture in Central Europe, what I was feeling, at least at that time that Prague will be a kind of a source or a, and a good place to start off through and to get to know various other cities around. And the location is great scenery, landscape. Beautiful.

Matthew Dols 1:05
You just moved from where?

Hagai Segev 1:06
From Tel Aviv,

Matthew Dols 1:08
and in Tel Aviv, you were a curator for how many years? Almost 30 years, 30 years, okay. Now, my I’m, I’m a practicing artist. And I’m also a professor. And one thing I don’t understand about curators is how do you make your living in my mind. So my historical general view is that curators Generally, the most important thing is to like get with a museum and have a full time job and be working in a museum, and you just have a job for the rest of your life, as long as you don’t screw it up, basically, is that actually what curators desire?

Hagai Segev 1:46
Oh, usually, yes. But practically, especially over the past decade or so, things have changed 2030 years ago, only museums and the state institutions owe large collections employed curators, over the past 10 years or so it has been shifting to a more freelance environment. And if you are not based in a certain museum or institutional collection, you sort of roam about or find for yourself or people find you to work and curate, and work on exhibitions, and basically be the producer of anything, which is related to find out.

Matthew Dols 2:38
Yeah, and that transition is what’s fascinating me because I was in the United States, and I was living in Ohio, which I don’t recommend horrible place. Nothing personal Ohio, but I didn’t have fun there. And then and then I moved to the Middle East, and I was not able to participate as much in the arts market as as I had hoped. And then, uh, now I’m in Prague, and I realized that that’s basically it’s been like, about 10 years since I’ve been really, really active in the arts community. And it has changed dramatically since I left, and there’s lots of changes. So like, my historical perspective on curators is that they’re these pinnacle of their career kind of at like a higher, you know, in a White Tower. They’re these magnificent people that work at museums, and they’d sort of define the arts world. Is that still true?

Hagai Segev 3:31
To a great extent, yes, it is still true, but it has been shifting from the academic aspect of art history and curatorship into the more practical element, which is really becoming a kind of producer or editor and at the end of the land curatorship. And this is part of the difficulties which the professional has gone through, at least in the past 10 years or so. And it is a dramatic change, which basically formed all the changes that Internet has introduced into the art scene. And that’s interesting. Yeah. And the internet opened the world. Before that, you had to have connections, you had to have to go through kind of a sequence of steps that you had to advance, introduce and get to know people and gradually, step by step you will get higher in the IRA creek or in the specific improve your gallery status, all the museum status or the international market.

Matthew Dols 4:52
Now, are you talking about this from like your perspective as a curator sort of going up the hierarchy of curator ship, or are you talking about as an Artists trying to get into the arts

Hagai Segev 5:01
well, mostly as an artist. Okay,

Matthew Dols 5:03
I’m just because it because there’s a separate hierarchy for curator. Yes. I mean, I’m sure there’s a low like, sort of first job you do out of college or young or whatever. And then then you you get better and you get better opportunities new you get higher institutions and so on and so on. What What is that? Give me a like, what was your process of growing through the career ladder?

Hagai Segev 5:30
Yeah. Basically, after finishing University artistry, you advance into what is called the apprenticeship or working as a curator resistance, let’s say, and then gradually, you are improving yourself, your academic skills, your ability to analyze or to appreciate art. And then you become a curator, and maybe a chief curator, and you go up the ladder, but it takes a very long time, it can take decades for each of those steps. So again, it depends where you work, and how accomplished you are and how professional you become, and what are the senses that you develop in the way you look at art, and understand art and to know art, and know all the ins and outs of politics, behind art. In addition to the academic aspects of artistry, getting to know, artists, getting to know collectors getting to know, newspaper people, or at least it was in the past. Now there are no newspaper people related to art or the other very few. But this all changed because of the internet. And, and this is why you feel this in a decade, everything is turned upside down.

Matthew Dols 7:00
And that’s why I came to creating this podcast because I landed here in Prague thinking that I could use my old ways the my old knowledge of how the art world works, and just land here in Prague and do it that way. And I am I’m completely lost. And so I’m sort of trying to learn in this doing this podcast is my effort to learn how is it working? What does it do? educate me, because I’m lost.

Hagai Segev 7:27
You’re not the only one lost? I think the entire art world is at loss is almost impossible to find a connecting thread that goes throughout, what is the art profession? There is no one thread anymore.

Matthew Dols 7:45
Now was there ever there like that? Okay, so, so my impression that there used to be some sort of literal like worldwide art market that had a commonality and all these kinds of use to be true. And it’s now oddly enough, even though the internet connects us all, it’s actually made us a bit more separated a bit more. I’m hearing regional like so it seems like art fairs and galleries and curators work read more regionally instead of internationally. Now,

Hagai Segev 8:19
do you know a single name of a current Picasso? No, you cannot name one important major one artists that everyone speaks of

Matthew Dols 8:32
Damien Hirst. No, everybody speaks of him, whether they like him or not, they speak of him.

Hagai Segev 8:38
They speak of him, okay, they speak about Jeff Koons

Matthew Dols 8:41
that Jeff Koons actually very simple,

Hagai Segev 8:43
very simple, they’re the only two maybe, and they are virtually outside of the art world. Oh, they’re

Matthew Dols 8:49
their own industry in and of themselves. Industry. It’s

Hagai Segev 8:53
not art anymore. It’s a commercial, design oriented, money oriented, professional, it isn’t, it’s not um, it’s the I class in the own right, but also at the same time, they are outside of the real art world because they are not creating art anymore. So there is a paradox. And I think this is what makes the current art scene if there is a kind of an art scene. You can’t fully grasp it, you have to create your own interpretation of an art scene of your own art in what is relevant to you as an artist, what is relevant to you, as a curator or as a professor, and all the shattered fragments are or have to be brought into what is relevant to you as a creator, as an author, as a producer. And by this, I mean that you have to find your own way and only if you find your own genuine way would you be able to advance. So it is almost impossible really to find this way. And you have to get a sense of inner self, or invent your inner self, that you’re really persistent to pursue this way, and to carry it as much as you can. And challenge yourself to overcome the many difficulties which are on the way.

Matthew Dols 10:32
So it’s not just me when I sit back and think the art world seems exponentially more difficult to navigate now than it did when I was just out of art school. When I when I just came out of art school, my professors knew all the galleries in town, I could literally like the each professor had their favorite students, and they would there they would recommend their favorite students to their gallery that represented them. And they, you know, that started their career or you were not liked by any professor, and you didn’t have that great connection. That was that was a great opportunity. But now, it just seems like everything is so different. And I mean, the social media aspect of website that the internet it makes it. So we as artists, and even as curators, I’m sure, and I want you to talk sort of from a curatorial perspective, have to be our own public relations firm. And we have to put the time and the energy and the thought and the work into marketing ourselves. Even if we get a gallery or even if we work at an institution.

Hagai Segev 11:37
Yes, because you have to do almost everything by yourself. It is a one man operation or one woman operation because no one can really promote you the best way. But yourself. Now, since most of the young artists are much better than their predecessors in promotion in understanding the media, in understanding the social media, especially that gallery owners who are usually 2030 years older than the artists of the emerging artists have no understanding of social media, and they cannot advance the artist the way he would have wanted. And that’s one of the difficult they age gaps have been becoming more and more dramatic. And they relate or usually the gallery owners relate to what is called the older collectors trato. Right. So they have to bridge the gap between the emerging artists and the collectors which are usually 40s. And up, they are more established economically, they can afford and so on. And the young emerging artists have no background in that aspect. But on the other hand, the young artists usually through the social media are able to generate much more attention through their own circle of friends or peers. And this is something that galleries owners of the museum curators, specially the although privileged one unable to understand and communicate. And the gap creates this frustration, let’s say, by the older generation of artists, why no one really knows us only the older people, or the 40s Plus, or why we’re not generating the masses of public relations of visitorship in our shows, and this is the effort that has to be combined now by few people working at the same time concurrently, and try to bridge the age gaps and the differences of way of thinking of relating to things. For example, less and less. Young people are willing to invest on a longer time span. In art, they are flicking all the time from one artist to another from one generation to another.

Matthew Dols 14:20
And when you’re saying young, younger people you mean collectors or do you mean like creators, both

Hagai Segev 14:27
even young?

Matthew Dols 14:29
curators? Yeah,

Hagai Segev 14:30
young collectors, like let’s say, high tech collectors who are usually very young that are under 30 or 35. They are tending to change the names they’re buying or collecting. They’re tending to change styles and shift from one place to another. And another aspect which is very important. Many of them believe in high rise building. Most of them are in glass, high rise buildings.

Matthew Dols 14:58
They don’t have no storage

Hagai Segev 15:00
Storage are no walls, which is entirely different to what used to be.

Matthew Dols 15:06
Like sculptures though,

Hagai Segev 15:07
they collect sculpture, they collect video art, which is a temporary art, it’s not something that you have to exhibit all the time. So even in that respect, things are changing very rapidly. Now and other aspects, city people or city dwellers living smaller and smaller, partly because the prices have skyrocketed in metropolitan areas. So they live in two, three bedroom apartments are not in four or five as their parents may be used to. This also does affect the way they can collect or not collect. And so it’s a collections of four major works of two three meters of a painting, for example, has become a privilege of institutions or a corporate enterprise collection. So there is also a change in that respect. It’s

Matthew Dols 16:06
a huge shift in the whole art industry in that way. Now, as a curator, what round you fall into so they for the past 30 years you’ve been curating in the Middle East and did you work for institutions did you work did you were you a freelancer? Did you work for collections or private collections corporate collections any any or all give us a little bit of insight into the different ways you’ve worked and the different people you’ve worked for. Okay. Ah,

Hagai Segev 16:37
luckily I had the opportunity to experience is each of those different aspects I started as a curator, guest curator in a large museum and these were Museum which is the National Museum in Jerusalem, Israel, then I will after five years I worked as a freelance for a while then I went again to join and work in a architectural gallery in one of the schools and then I was again freelance for a while and opened my own contemporary art gallery which is was a huge challenge

Matthew Dols 17:14
that’s interesting what So wait, how did the I understand how the gallery maybe come up came about but like what happened with it dude, what did you what were some things you learned from that? Because you’re not still running at galleries so that means that either you sold it or you closed it.

Hagai Segev 17:32
Tragic closing, let’s say, I opened the loft gallery in one of the industrial areas of South Tel Aviv and after a year, the place just went to flames.

Matthew Dols 17:48
Literally. Yeah, look away literally. Wait, literally went up in flames. They caught fire.

Hagai Segev 17:55
Yeah, the building the entire thing was a huge or 200 factories and lofts and studios in the south of Tel Aviv, and one of the warehouses for grand flow will set up ablaze and all the entire shoot building and you were insured. I take Yes, yes. But since I’m not a pure, let’s say, professional, how does a gallery owner and I came from the curators sheep side, which is more theoretical, more artistic in nature. It was a devastating moment for me and then I wasn’t able to reopen it. I’m sure

Matthew Dols 18:38
there’s like that’s just an emotional pain. I mean, the the loss of all the artwork the loss of just the the the energy and the

Hagai Segev 18:45
especially the energy. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 18:46
I can easily imagine that toward being difficult to come back from

Hagai Segev 18:50
Yes, so but but maybe it was for the best, you know, you have to look at things and experience things that happen through your life as something that happens and I was able to go back to what I thought was better for me, which is it was not the economical side, the commercial side of art, but to go back to what I really loved, which was theoretical aspects of curatorship thinking about art, improving my or deepening my relationships with creators with artists, which is the aspect I love the best in all this process. So after that, I was able to go back and work in institutions in various aspects and to improve my ability to sever ties artistically.

Matthew Dols 19:47
Okay, so help me out I treat me like I’m an idiot like, I don’t know anything. The name of the podcast is the wise fool. So I’m a little bit foolish on certain things when it comes to You say like, Oh, you approached institutions and you worked with these people in this? How does that even work? So let’s say there’s an institution or a collection or something like that, and they need a curator, do they come seeking you out? Do you make a proposal of an exhibition and send it to them? Is Which way? Does that dynamic happen? Are they seeking curators or curators seeking collections and institutions,

Hagai Segev 20:24
it works both ways. It depends on the network you create. Because if you’re famous enough, or creating something, which is interesting enough for one Museum, they might pick up the phone or send an email, we would like you to propose something for us and the exhibition and event or any program, it can work from the other side of the eye as a curator, write down a proposal and send it out hoping someone will open the email and we’ll look at what I’ve proposed. So sometimes it was Huawei. Sometimes it works the other way. And it you have to try constantly, to find the right way.

Matthew Dols 21:09
Rather, that’s the next question I was gonna ask, which is sort of the better use of your time, which is, the more the one you have more positive outcomes from,

Hagai Segev 21:19
I can definitely say, it works both ways. Sometimes I propose and send out and the Open the email, and they say, Okay, this sounds nice. Let’s have a discussion about it. Let’s see how it goes. On the other way. Sometimes they have what is called a call for proposals. And they they publicize on the Facebook or the various internet sites that call for proposals, and they send out and people said, usually a few hundreds of proposals. So it is very difficult to, let’s say, to lift the limitations and find the right way that people will really want

Matthew Dols 22:00
what you propose. that begs the next question. So when you’re sitting back in your apartment, your studio in a cafe, whatever, and you’re trying to come up with a proposal? How do you do that? What’s your process for just literally starting a proposal from scratch?

Hagai Segev 22:18
I try to find what is the right expression of assumption, which is currently in the public interest, let’s say, okay, so

Matthew Dols 22:30
you’re looking at what’s going on in the industry or what’s of interest in the in in society and trying to fit something to that. So it can be a mood, a concept, a political movement, or a color, whatever, yes,

Hagai Segev 22:45
but there is a limitation or not limitation, but I say a complication because you can’t do what many other people do or propose you have to find your own distinctive approach your own perspective, which will be original interesting, but not too original, because otherwise it will be too radical and too difficult to persuade the committee’s that it is relevant. So there is a kind of you have to find an equilibrium, a very delicate one between what the Zeiss guys what is the general feeling of culture at a certain place, or a certain time. And at the same time, you have to find the unique perspective of describing this approach. So it the wording is very important, the description of the the collecting, or collection of the names, which would be relevant, how many well known artists do you propose? Or how many emerging artists or maybe artists which are virtually unknown and you are trying to make them,

Matthew Dols 24:04
elevate them,

Hagai Segev 24:05
elevate them or open them to the public or expose them to the public. So you have to play all the time with various aspects of various categories to work very delicately in the same time and create a something which on the whole will create an internal wholeness of a proposal or an idea.

Matthew Dols 24:30
Okay, walk me through a literal process. There’s like pictures everything in your mind one of your your ID your proposals that you actually wrote. How did you even find the inspiration to start the proposal?

Hagai Segev 24:44
What are the major parts or time consuming elements in a curators work is just walking around. It can be through the internet, but that’s not a good way. At least not in my eyes. I prefer to walk, literally walk from gallery to gallery, from bookstore to bookstore from show to show from fair to fair, and meet people, because when I personally selected artists, it’s not just his art, I take him as a whole, I take his personality, I take his attitude, would we be able to work together? Would it be good for him? In the stage, he is staged at all located all standing it to advance to a certain project or not? A How would it be to get people to recognize his artistic achievements? Or is there some difficulty in the way he acts or in what he portrays or plays or whatever. So again, it is I assemble, like something like 20 different criteria, I write them down, not necessarily on a paper, maybe just in my mind, and I’d analyze which one would best fit to a certain project. And the certain project I analyzed to which venue, it will best fit to which one I can approach, which one will be willing to open its doors to something which is difficult, or different or challenging in a way that would be interesting for me. It’s not just going into Okay, I’ll do another show. No, it’s much a process. I’m trying to program my own career through a year, two years, three years sequence,

Matthew Dols 26:56
which actually lends again to another question that you’ve brought up for me, which is in a given year, how many proposals and how many projects do you do on a suppose

Hagai Segev 27:06
I write out 10 proposals and realize three to four

Matthew Dols 27:13
that’s a pretty good percentage, I would imagine,

Hagai Segev 27:16
yes, but then it is based on so many elements that I have to work through that I try to not to waste time or I know quite early, what the potential is officers and projects and to who I can offer it to which Museum which gallery which university or whatever, I know with which artists I can work because I have the ability to understand through the process, I do the process of talking a few talks, reading and thinking of what the potential is and to rich to cloud kind of ability of integrating everything together in the best way best effective way. And sometimes I just put the things as high do I say okay, this will take two three years, for example, we are sitting in a gallery hollow chain Praga and we are surrounded by the art of sleater kowski I know he for maybe five years now. And only after two years of regular meetings, we begin to think of an idea of a show and only then it has taken maybe two three years to realize the show to find the right place to find the right expression of what it is in the show. So, it is a long process everything takes a few years you just read rarely do you go see something is that okay, I know this can work out and even then it takes at least two years because museums galleries always scheduled two three even five years in advance especially the major ones. So, and people they also need this process which is very different to what we are used to in the internet world or in the global media world or in the high tech world that in two three months, you have to have products and so on. In the art, there is still this time element which you have to go through both myself as a curator, the the artist himself as the process around it. And I think it is a good element because it matures or enables things to mature in the best way and there is a contradiction between the fast pace of the current world and the art world, which is always a bit behind.

Matthew Dols 30:10
Okay, so these days as off, my views are just talking about that people are looking for the trick or the recipe or the the the the path or the route to success, the everybody seems to think that there is a way to be successful in the arts industry. I don’t believe that’s true. And that’s why I’ve created this podcast is because I believe that every single person that I’m going to talk to is going to give me a different story of their path and how it was very different than somebody else’s path. But it still worked. And there, there might be some little grain of unearthing that legs is something you did, and then something somebody else did. And then something somebody else did, maybe those three things will connect to be useful to somebody else’s path. But there’s no perfect direction or path anymore. Not that there ever was, but there certainly isn’t now.

Hagai Segev 31:02
Correct. And I think there’s no one recipe. And each and every artist, or curator in this respect, has to find what is true for himself of what is the right thing for him to express, and the way to express and the style to express. So I can give a very few elementary elements or criteria, but it’s never enough, because each one of us creates a different variation of that criteria. And the beauty of art is that there is no one recipe you can try and paint like Michelangelo, but it will never be Michelangelo you can copy Michelangelo, but you won’t have the spirit of Michelangelo, you can try to achieve the darkness of Caravaggio, and you would never get the exact colors, or shades that he was able to produce because it comes from his inner understanding or is in a vision of things. Or think of Van Gogh, he probably did see the world as stripes of energies and expressionistic, very heavy paint one upon another, and the bright colors and the contrasting colors. And I suppose each one of us sees his world in the same way, this is why we are different. So in that respect, we have to find through this process of the artistic process, or the psychological process, or whatever the correct and right and genuine element that we can express, no one can express the way we prefer a cent or a flower or a vision, someone will like clear gallery space, what is called the white box, and some would prefer the green and yellow, and let’s say blue paint on the wall or in a irregular shape. So it depends. Look at the difference of museum design, or gallery design. If you look at the lip skins art in the Jewish Museum in Berlin, it’s entirely different or completely different to the neoclassical museums of the Metropolitan, for example, or the Guggenheim, which is more international style. And it’s because each one wants to find his own way of expressing the space or explore expressing the painterly world, or his inner self. And this what makes it fascinating that you cannot really duplicate. So you can’t have one recipe. recipes are for people who are followers, not people who are leaders. And I hope each one of us, especially people who are in the artistic world have this element of being a leader of advancing thought, sensibility understanding of the world. And that’s a very important, for example. I don’t do regular contemporary art exhibitions. I always try to combine a historical element in the way I tell a story,

Matthew Dols 34:29
which actually is something we haven’t even covered which, which is what is your focus? What’s your background, your interest? My understanding is the most curator sort of have a specialization, let’s say so what’s yours.

Hagai Segev 34:43
I like to combine the aesthetics and the philosophy of contemporary life with the input of history. In many of my exhibitions or the exhibitions, I curated, I tried to come bind, even archaeology with contemporary medieval with contemporary and to find what is the way we are influenced by the way we are brought up on history, either by the surroundings, the environment, or the landscape we live in all the the way we are brought up and these elements reflected even in the way we look at the contemporary world, there is always a hint to what we are brought up on what are the stories, the narrative, the legends, the psychological aspects that we were brought up, and how they relate to our current life. And in this way, I try to show for example, that we are not very far away from medieval thinking, abstract thinking, which was very prominent in the Middle Ages, the philosophy was not just to portray the world as it is, as we are in the Renaissance, for example, but to have a kind of abstract feeling to the place of the human being in its surroundings. And the thing we were doing today, we are separating ourselves from the environment, and we’re trying to create a new setting for us as human beings. And I’m trying to show this very unique way of looking at the world,

Matthew Dols 36:41
it sounds like you’ve set up a very tough scenario for yourself, it is, it could be a lot easier ways to curate exhibitions, it

Hagai Segev 36:48
is, it’s very difficult, it’s very difficult to persuade people to look at this,

Matthew Dols 36:55
I would imagine would also be difficult to even just get your hands on the artworks from these various different time periods in order to create an exhibition like this. Since I’m thinking outside of institutions.

Hagai Segev 37:07
Now outside of institutions, it is almost impossible. But in institutions that was bought, or I began my career in the Israel Museum, for example, who is a huge archaeological collection, and it was a possibility to do that. But even if we’re do kukri right now in a private gallery, or a small Institute, by giving a kind of a background, not necessarily the original artifacts from 2000 years ago, 400 years ago, by giving you an insight to a reflection or through photography, through a computer imaging, you can always do it, you can add another layer, this is what I’m trying to do that we are not just creating contemporary art, we are always basing our knowledge on something from the history something which has been done in some way, a few 100 years ago, a few dozen years ago, and it is still apparent in the way we are doing what we do currently. And I think this gives a very interesting background or depth, or whatever we do, yeah.

Matthew Dols 38:31
Okay. And now that you’ve moved to Prague, you’re in a new market, you’re in a new element of the industry. That’s a so Central Europe versus the Middle East. How different are these two markets, as far as curating so you because you’re talking a lot about art and artists and all this. I’m very interested in your experiences as a curator, and the curatorial practices in the curator industry, because as I started with, like, I don’t know anything about it. So please, please help me out educate me a little bit, because one of the big questions I’ll have which you can get into after you compare the two into regions, is how can how does a contemporary artists get on the radar or get known by a curator? The me because like just sending out emails to every curator I find on a website, it doesn’t work. So what is the best way for you? So since you can’t talk for everybody, every curator in the world, but what’s the best way for you? Like how do people how do artists effectively get into your scope of knowledge?

Hagai Segev 39:45
I would say that you have to find a way to get personal and that’s very difficult. But writing or sending out emails, a personal email, not just a general

Matthew Dols 39:59
so like Writing like, Hey, I read this introduction you did or I saw this exhibition you curated, I really loved and appreciated it, you’re giving them some personal connection?

Hagai Segev 40:08
Yes. It has to be you can’t just send, just by chance, you have to find what interests you. How you think we can connect? In what way? What is your offer, and don’t expect that the reply will be immediate, because it does take

Matthew Dols 40:28
time. And that’s, that’s an important thing for people to know. Because, like when I send an email these days, if I don’t hear back within 24 hours, I’m just like, Oh, my God, they hate me. Oh, my God, what have I done? I’ve embarrassed myself writing this horrible email to them. But you’re saying no, it takes some

Hagai Segev 40:45
time. It can take a few days, or sometimes even weeks and months till you get a reply. But don’t be discouraged. Because if your opening left, or cover letter is genuine, and creates a connection with which is relevant to the person you’re sending to him this information. Why have seen an exhibition? I’ve read your paper, I’ve heard your speech in the conference. And I thought this could be relevant for you. What do you think? I would like to have your opinion or your advice, it won’t work for those who work in huge institutions, because they’re overwhelmed by the amount of emails they’ve received. But certainly, freelance curators, and medium level curators are open to hear from you. And another element is that think? Do your research. Check. If he really likes abstract art, the curator sent abstract Charles, if you think he likes conceptual art, and you will be interested by the concept you’re developing, send that if not, don’t send because then it is a waste of time. It’s not just a waste of time for the other person for the curator, but it is discouraging element to you as an artist. Because, as you say, each letter you do not get a reply is like a stab in your heart.

Matthew Dols 42:24
It’s it’s a no, it means much more than a no, it’s an emotional No,

Hagai Segev 42:29
I made all this effort. And why do they not? take no notice? Why don’t they reply,

Matthew Dols 42:36
even just say thank you,

Hagai Segev 42:39
you get hundreds of mails. So you have to send out that to see or send the right message which is relevant to the person you’re sending it.

Matthew Dols 42:51
Along with that when so when you receive a package, let’s say I have an email from an artist, let’s assume that they’ve done a really good job of writing of a personal email. When it comes to looking at the work, I’m fascinated with this balance because making beautiful work is very important. Well, beautiful is probably the wrong word making strong work effective work appropriate work, whatever word you want to put to a successful definition of good work. How important is the artist statement that accompanies that?

Hagai Segev 43:27
Today is the truth.

Matthew Dols 43:28
Yeah, for me, it’s

Hagai Segev 43:29
not important. Since we’re working on a visual art, the visual art should work should do the work. The artist says statement, I would read if I would read only after I’ve seen a go over the images 123 times if it absorbs or gets my attention, that if it works on what I’m looking for, I will read because what has become over the again, past decade. artists have become professional writers of artists statement. Most of them are almost the same. They go everyone reads out to write an artist statement

Matthew Dols 44:18
or their books out there. Like how to books and they all follow those same models. But there’s models there. They don’t have that personal connection. They don’t have that. I mean, I actually do portfolio reviews for photographers. And one of the things that I often say is, when I read an artist statement, I want that our statement to give me some additional context that I can’t get from the images and to emotionally grab me in some way. I want to feel compassion or caring or some sort of strong emotion about the images I’m seeing in a way that could not have expressed in the images. So in other words, like the art to me, the artist statement should not be duplicating. So don’t just describe to me what I’m seeing, give me something else. Give the work more gravitas give more meaning more heartfelt passion in it.

Hagai Segev 45:17
Correct. Because otherwise, there’s no use in writing it. And it takes a long time to write these 10 to 20 lines,

Matthew Dols 45:25
it’s but it’s mandatory these days, we have to write them

Hagai Segev 45:29
I know, but then write it, but don’t over act it, just do something very simple. Don’t describe that. But add important information which you can’t see in the visual itself. Now there is difficulty of a understanding all the visual elements on screen, of course. And this is part of the difficulty that you have to try and absorb the best of the information, the best of textures, which is the most difficult element in portfolios. And only then can you really look at what they are writing, because people in the museum or in the gallery do not have the portfolio

Matthew Dols 46:14
next to them. Like in the old days, where literally an artist would show up with a physical portfolio of their works. So Well, okay, which then lends to a sort of another part of that when you receive portfolios, is it useful to have a full image and then maybe some details and still show some of these textures you’re talking about? Or maybe would it be very constructive and helpful to actually add a video of like, literally like walking around the works, that maybe they can see it under sort of different angles and things like this? Like, basically, I’m asking what kind of formats are most useful, knowing that we have this great digital opportunities, since

Hagai Segev 46:58
we have these opportunities, just use whatever you can, whatever you think would be the best. We all have phones

Matthew Dols 47:04
and video of video cameras in our pocket correct.

Hagai Segev 47:07
Don’t send something which is too heavy, or too, in such a resolution that blocks or stops the computer, send something which is sensible don’t send the 100 images send 10 to 20, not more. There’s most of the curators can understand after three to five images, if it’s worth to them or not. If it’s worthwhile or not, they don’t need these 100 images,

Matthew Dols 47:42
probably they send you 100 images sometimes,

Hagai Segev 47:46
sometimes, and all the center long texts, or they send the five videos, no one will sit and sees an hour’s worth of five videos. Along with that another

Matthew Dols 48:00
question because I spoke with another curator about this CV. When you receive a CV? Do you want the complete CV everything from like graduating college all the way to wherever they are? Or do you want to sort of selected like a one page like best off,

Hagai Segev 48:19
I prefer the best off. And I also prefer that if someone will write a short paragraph of five to 10 words of 10 lines to describe their art not as a statement, but what they have done, what they have achieved. And also not just according to yours, but if the work in various mediums like let’s separate them not just 2019 to 1990. But the best venues the best and substantial exhibitions. Don’t tell me where you exhibited graduate school or high school or in a restaurant, don’t it just makes a bad impression. Pick what is the best of your work will end if you have a difficulty with the names. Add a line to describe why it is important. A certain exhibition, is it a major retrospective is a major group show on a very important subject that you can’t understand from the headline, title, edit, but very briefly, it’s difficult it’s very difficult to make something so absorbed in grabbing the the understanding and the catching the eye of the curator. It’s very difficult. That’s why you have to take a long time and work on Don’t do Don’t say, send 10 pages of exhibitions, it’s no one will go no understand it, no one will read through. It sounds like

Matthew Dols 50:10
I need to breathe work my CV. Okay. my CV is like nine pages long, and I guess I need to edit it down.

Hagai Segev 50:18
If we see that you have been working for 30 years, we know you had a lot. Let’s let’s talk about how to work with a curator, or what is the advantage of working with a curator, once you are in young artists or even professional artists?

Matthew Dols 50:39
give me give me a little quick thing, define young artists, emerging artists, professional art, like the different tiers that we often see in the industry that, you know, you’ll see competitions and whatever saying like, oh, we’re looking for young artists, we’re looking for emerging artists, we’re looking for mid career artists. What what’s your working definition of those different tiers,

Hagai Segev 51:01
young and emerging artists usually are regarded artists, off to college or art school. And those who have been working for 10 to 15 years, let’s say, the F 35. So the young or emerging, emerging owl maybe a bit later, let’s say from the 20s 35 to 35. If they’re still in a kind of an development stage, they are not fully developed, they’re not fully they have not yet created their own style or the owner, singular, unique, medium, or ideal. And then you have mid career, which are 35 to 15. And then you have the veteran artists, which all should be established already. So this is basically the division, let’s say, but it is much more than that. Because what happens is that in the mid 20s, and mid 30s, usually people go through a very dramatic change of lifestyle, they get married, or they live with partners. And this usually affects dramatically, especially women, but also men. And there are many dramatic changes. So it is important to be persistent and be able to continue and go through that early stages of career we’re not established yet you’re usually working then few jobs at the same time, you’re finding your own artistic style, or artistic medium or artistic expression. And you have to struggle usually with Where are you going to live, who are you going to create a family moved to other places, all these very dramatic life experiences affect the way you work in your art and in the way you are advancing your art. Only in the late 30s. Usually people be going to really realize and understand what they want to do in life and how they can proceed and determine the rest of their career. And that’s past being emerging and past being a young artist and you have to establish yourself and to know where you are going and to know how to cope with the industry. And that’s a very crucial time. So for for women artists, sometimes they have to skip and raise a family for 235 years. And that creates an a gap in the CV which is dramatic in the way people regard you especially professional galleries and professional collectors and professional museum people. And you have to know and calculate, preferably in advance how to overcome this gap in your CV. On the other hand, most of the people do know that this is how life goes everyone has it encountered this difficulty in his personal life. Well, I

Matthew Dols 54:36
have a gap in my CV because I’m moved to the Middle East and I work figuratively in my artwork and so I more or less had to hide almost all of my artwork and didn’t do much exhibitions or participate much I mean, beyond the fact that also I worked for the government. So I also couldn’t use social media or I ran the risk of getting in trouble

Hagai Segev 54:58
that you can tell them You can say that on your CV, I had to move and I was working in the studio and I did not have a chance to

Matthew Dols 55:08
change exhibitions, I currently moved to Prague with six years worth of artwork that I’ve never exhibited, ready to exhibit, but no opportunities because I have this horrible gap years kind of thing. So

Hagai Segev 55:22
okay, so you can you can admit it, you can tell about, you can talk about it, I’m very open about it, okay. And I don’t think you have to hide it. And usually, the filling, I know that if has to do is overloaded with works, there is an energy of the works of the artists that has to explode, and as to get out and use this energy, try to tell people about it, and to show that and not just say, I will wasn’t able to exhibit I had three, five years, I had to work internally. And to create what I need to solve, and now I’m ready to go back on the market. Right? And they will will appreciate the way if you’re candid about it, if you know how to describe it and not describe it as a disadvantage, but as a period that each and every one of us.

Matthew Dols 56:25
It was my period of reflection, my monastic time, my looked internally,

Hagai Segev 56:30
and it is affected the way I work now in artists changes my, my style, my subject matter. And I think you know, I’m ready to

Matthew Dols 56:43
show it did dramatically actually change my style? Not my subject matter so much. But my style. Yes. But anyways, back to the Why should people work with curators? What’s the role of curators these days,

Hagai Segev 56:59
I think the basic setting aside the production element, or the production drive, the most important work with a curator is creating a dialogue. Artists usually work solely securely in a very limited space, they are not just the space of the studio, but the space of their mind, they are absorbed by work, they think everything is dramatically affecting the way the world sees them. And by having confidence to talk with someone else. It’s like a coach, it’s like a psychologist, but in a direction of the artistic element. And by that dialogue, you usually have the opportunity to challenge yourself, your thoughts, your ideas, your convictions, and to get a genuine counter action or counter reaction to what you present. And it is done in a safety of the studio, that you can say anything, you can throw anything at the curator, the curator can throw anything at you. And you can have that kind of impolite counter effect, which you can’t have with a collector or with a gallery owner or a museum curator, the curator accompanies you and goes through with you along with the various stages from the blank canvas all the blank wall of the flow, which is empty. And by showing the processes and the changes that go in your mind and then on the platform artistic platform, you can see what would work better what will create the best effect what will be give you the best result of what you are looking for. And this is I think the best element of most important. The second element usually creators, the ones who write about the work, they analyze, they mediate the artistic thinking into the concrete, literal world that accompanies us all that is easier to distribute. And another element which is very important. Contemporary Art is something which is very challenging for many, many people outside of the industry,

Matthew Dols 59:48
even within the industry,

Hagai Segev 59:49
even within I didn’t want to say that but it is many curators or many reporters, or many academics don’t have the feeling of The artists have, they don’t have the feeling of the sensation that the artist has gone through in the process. And the good curator affords the transaction, or the better flow of ideas from the artist through the artwork to the real world. And it is very difficult to create this. In one person, the artist himself, he can write an artist statement. But usually it will come out awkward or not really comprehensible. The curator, if is a good curator, makes it comprehensible, legible.

Matthew Dols 1:00:46
So a good artist statement, oftentimes will come from a curator, not from the artists themselves. Preferably, nobody has ever said this to me before. I mean, I’ve heard stories of artists hiring people to basically help them write grants and proposals and things like this. But the idea that it’s a curator, so this is a avenue of income for curators. And this is something that artists should be paying curators to be able to do for them. Yes, yeah.

Hagai Segev 1:01:20
No payment is not only not always financially, sometimes you give artwork,

Matthew Dols 1:01:28
as a kind of a barter, I love the barter system, I wish everything was barter.

Hagai Segev 1:01:33
Very important way of creating because it provides, usually the creditor is unable to afford to buy an an artwork. Usually good curators work with people they like or artists they like they would love to have an artwork as a barter or exchange as a present whatever you define it, because I feel that I give my heart when I write about an artist because I would not write about an artist who is not accomplished in my eyes, in my view. So if he I give him this kind of present, which is in my mind that I have the ability to write in a good way. People understand it, babe like it, I would appreciate very much to get present.

Matthew Dols 1:02:25
back, right. I love the barter system. I wish I could pay rent that way, it’d be magnificent.

Hagai Segev 1:02:32
But again, there are various ways of communicating or exchanging presence, not necessarily, I feel many of the artists I work with feel that I give them a present when I write about them in a way other people suddenly understand or see. See the insight sees the beauty in their work. And this is something which is very crucial. So it’s not just professional, I suppose that you can be strictly professional and analyze someone’s but it won’t be the best. The best is when the PIP the person you work with, either as a curator, putting things on the wall or in the gallery space or writing. If you don’t have that sense of appreciation, of love, of understanding, it would not come up right then to

Matthew Dols 1:03:29
totally shift everything because finances came up. These days, I’ve been hearing stories that commercial galleries are now hiring curators and paying offering to pay them percentages of sales. Is that true? It happens.

Hagai Segev 1:03:47
It’s Yeah. The thing is, again, with the challenging times that the galleries go through because of the internet where many artists or collectors Connect over the heads or over the roofs of the galleries and the gallery. industry is going through dramatic change. Basically because more and more galleries go just to fairs, art fairs, and because of the high rent rates in the large cities, one of the ways to overcome it is not to offer the curator a salary or a wage or even and to give off for them. If you curate a good show if you select a good artist, let’s divide the proceedings and share them in some way.

Matthew Dols 1:04:44
But isn’t that sort of Sally the the the purity and the innocence and the the sort of esteem of a curator.

Hagai Segev 1:04:54
It of course does. But on the other hand, the curator have to change the power dogma of being just theoreticians or working purely for the art sake because it doesn’t work anymore. So you have to find what is right for you, I would not like to do that. But I know galleries do offer that they hope that by doing so, there would be more energy, or a better driving element in the way you curate, or the selection of the works, that will be more profitable. But this is something that goes into very dangerous.

Matthew Dols 1:05:42
Yeah, that’s how I feel. I mean, it’s, I feel like it’s a slippery slope down to basically just focusing more on sales than on quality or longevity of building a career through strong exhibitions, if you’re focusing on The Daily Sales quota.

Hagai Segev 1:06:04
But again, space is expensive, each square meter or wall meter space in New York is enormous, you have to cover it some way. Now.

Matthew Dols 1:06:19
Don’t get me wrong, I’m just being a purist in this, I’m aware that business is business, and they need to make money, these galleries need to make money to keep their doors open, so that they then can help these people build careers and do this kind of stuff. So I’m not that naive or negative about it. I’m just surprised.

Hagai Segev 1:06:38
I think that the art scene is following the capitalistic piggish capitalism which we are in, and the the, its changes, it wasn’t this way, 10 years ago, and it has become more and more commercial, or the ideas are becoming more and more commercial. You know how much it costs to go on affair. As a gallery. It’s hundreds of 1000s of dollars.

Matthew Dols 1:07:10
Yeah, for just a

Hagai Segev 1:07:12
few days. So you have to find a way to compensate, and to make a profit, otherwise, everything will collapse anyway. And it is as you if you can read what’s going on in New York City, many of the girls are shutting down, because they can’t afford any work. The collectors just look on internet, and can directly approach the artists. They don’t need to go through the

Matthew Dols 1:07:42
broker, which actually is also an interesting question. How, what role does a curator play in the relationship between collectors and well collecting? So galleries or artists or in the past? I’ve known people who were curators for private collections. But they often did it on sort of more of a freelance position. So it wasn’t a full time position. So do those kinds of things still exist? Or do collectors are collectors leaning more towards the believing that they have the expertise themselves because of the internet and all these kinds of things? Or are they still relying on curators

Hagai Segev 1:08:22
larger and professional collectors rely on curators they need because a businessman usually does not have the time to study and to research and to know what happens all around the world because it is a global market or even local markets you have hundreds of 1000s of artists just like in Czech Republic so he there’s no way collectors would know everyone. Now we have to also separate the collectors and their curators and museums and their curators because museum correct curators sign a kind of proclamation or statement that you are not allowed to deal with the collectors or with collection of artistic works which are relevant to the the professional field like if you are ever in a saucer curator you would not deal with Renaissance art, but you can advise on contemporary art could

Matthew Dols 1:09:31
be a conflict of interest. Basically, you have

Hagai Segev 1:09:33
to avoid conflict of interests. And when you go in as a freelance, there’s no basically there’s no conflict of interest because you’re serving yourself you’re the freelance. But again, it depends on how you personally work and to watch that which direction you were inclined. Are you inclined in Poe academic aspect or are you inclined into the commercial perspectives you have to decide to which you prefer, and how to work on your own ethics, let’s say what are your ethics regarding the sale and collecting of artifacts?

Matthew Dols 1:10:17
And what do you currently do? So you’re sort of new here in this market? Have you favored working more with institutions at this point? Are you more commercial galleries? What are you personally doing in your career?

Hagai Segev 1:10:30
Currently, I’m trying to work as a working as a freelance, I continue to work at home in Tel Aviv, I work all the time and I fly back and forth. There. I work with institutions. Here, I’m trying to establish myself as a freelance curator to open up to new opportunities and to work with galleries and maybe institutions. But it is difficult again, lacking the ability to talk or speaker check is makes it very difficult with local institutions which don’t in the open up so much to foreign languages, even if they know English, of course, most of them know English, but it is difficult to conduct everyday work basically, without a check. But I think one of the things that I feel about the check arson is that it’s not open enough to outside energies, let’s say it is very close to the local art scene, and there’s not enough foreign exhibitions. There’s not enough people traveling abroad, and they travel but not not enough to absorb and to bring with them back. cultural relations. So there are a few artists exchanges here. But I feel it’s not really enough.

Matthew Dols 1:11:57
Which actually lends to an interesting question that I’ve been interested in about curators, because a lot of times I see residencies that are offered, and they say performers, visual artists, curators, and this kind of thing. So they have you ever participated in any sort of residency as a curator?

Hagai Segev 1:12:15
Yes, a few in Austria, in Vienna, and in England, but not so much because most of them are really dedicated for artists. I think what is important with this system of residences is really to create an international network of artists, getting to know artists living in a space, or in a place where they are not acquainted with and getting to know the artistic sin and to know new people. And then what is important that they usually take with them, at least one or two contexts, which were able to work from the other wave to create something mutual, because let’s say someone comes to Czech Republic from France, and then probably will invite someone, Czech artists to France, and this creates a network of which is crucial for the advancement of any artistic person. And have you ever, as a curator, sort of maybe gone to a residency program and sought out some of these international artists to potentially then work with as well, because that’s one of the things I’ve heard about residencies as a participating artist is that oftentimes, galleries and curators sort of favor looking at the artists of a particular residency as potential because they’re of a certain level, they’ve passed the curatorial standards of that residency. And so therefore, then they could easily lend towards this gallery, or this curators interests. One of the difficulties, as you mentioned, is really finding out the best. And you have to go through a very long process of selection, and basically elimination to reach to the best or to the top or something or to a certain direction. What Why is there a certain structure of commercial galleries, better established galleries or high street galleries, and the top galleries and then smaller institutions like the cons dollars or small galleries, then larger museums and then the national museums and V. But this is a kind of a process that you elevate each time you go one step ahead, and you improve yourself and the selection becomes more and more difficult than a narrow stream. And this provides the institutions a way to eliminate and to select probably the best or the better. For the ones who are more inclined to the direction of a certain institution, and this is part of the process, and this is why you work with, for example, first of all, you you work with freelance curators, then you get institutional curator, then you get to work with, let’s say, academic curator and maybe a major museum curator, step by step, you would advance and you find in which category in which strata, you are best expressed as an artist or as a curator, and it works both ways. Now, the same way you when the I am invited to residency usually, as a curator, what I do, instead of working in the studio, I am taking for once to do to another, I can see, five, seven studios a day, preferably, I will get to know one or two or three of those artists I made. And when I get back home, I will continue the dialogue with them, broadening the network, and by that the residency does its work or is creation, creating a new environment,

Matthew Dols 1:16:16
which that continued communication, that relationship that’s built between the artists and the curator, or the artists in the gallery, or the artists and anybody that to help them with their career. That’s a very difficult relationship to create an end then exponentially more difficult to continue. Because I find myself like, I don’t I can’t talk for anybody else’s weaknesses. But my biggest weakness is, I can’t, I’m very bad at continuing relationships, I can create new ones, I’m very social, I’m very, you know, open and I can, I can find people but being able to continue and build and, and, you know, adjust that relationship into something bigger and better and newer, and more productive for both parties involved. That is really the magic, like, that’s the hardest part of the whole thing.

Hagai Segev 1:17:08
Correct. Because it is easier to to work on a new project to

Matthew Dols 1:17:13
do is way more fun, it’s fun,

Hagai Segev 1:17:15
and it’s creates a lot of energy and the drives you and you express yourself openly and talk to see the differences or the challenges or the changes that are gradual, it is much more difficult. But it is much more important, because this is why the way you really create a network, not a arbitrary network, but substantial network that can advance you. And if you can do work with the same people or the same artists for 10 or 20 years, you will gain many, many more advantages.

Matthew Dols 1:17:56
Yeah, this is a mistake that I made in my career, that I have realized since beginning this podcast that I didn’t realize just how detrimental it was to my career, which is I moved a lot. I kept moving, I would go to different schools in different parts of the world. And then I would change jobs and I wouldn’t even move and then now I’ve moved from the United States, the Middle East, and then from the Middle East, to the to Europe. And every time you move, you literally have to start from the bottom again, and build yourself back up again. And so I find I’ve been finding that through conversations that staying in one place is the smarter way to build your career. I mean, as far as like a home base, let’s say so like where you’re having your studio or your home base or your house, whatever you want to call your home in one place. And then you can go off for a year here a year there, six months here, whatever. And you can exhibit in other places and do residences, other places. But having that core foundational network is one of the most important things.

Hagai Segev 1:19:02
Yeah. And this is why I my advice is even if you go away, always continue to keep your former network active, inform. Let them know what you’re doing. Even if it’s not relevant, no one will come to see your show in Chrome from the Middle East.

Matthew Dols 1:19:26
Nobody from Wilmington, North Carolina is coming to my exhibition in Prague,

Hagai Segev 1:19:30
but they should be aware that you are still exhibiting that you’re writing to them, you are sending them photos, you’re informing them. And by that way, you will gain much more because what happens in many times is it a certain period, everyone is fed up of you in your home base. Okay, we know you you are not introducing anything interesting. We have seen all your work. You’re boring. Keep aside, but if you go away, suddenly something happens.

Matthew Dols 1:20:06
They miss you,

Hagai Segev 1:20:06
they miss you. Where have you been, we haven’t seen you for a long time, keep us updating or tell us what you’re doing inform us. And since you’re far away, there’s something that elevates your straighter, or your position even more. And then we come back a year, two years later, you have strength thing, your abilities or your offerings, let’s say, to the world. And basically, this is what I’m trying to do. I came here for a while, the first year, it was all, almost entirely discontinued, Everything was quiet, I was quiet, I was studying what it used to be in a foreign place. And only now after two or three years, I can feel that I’m longing for what I was leaving behind, and people back home are longing to hear what I have to say, because the process I’ve been going through is gaining some more or a different perspective, a different energy than it was before. And at the same time, keep all the time, all the time, the connection, the contacts don’t give up the contacts as they are and far away. I’m three hours a flyer away

Matthew Dols 1:21:33
10 hour flight away.

Hagai Segev 1:21:34
Yeah, much more difficult than the time changes. But still, I think there is a better chance that since you are being successful, and no one really knows to what extent abroad, you can have a better chance to intrigue folks back home, and to tell new stories and new story following all your travels around the world. So there is a disadvantage. But there is also an advantage you have much more experiences than the people who stayed at home and stayed with the come regular everyday normal life and you’ve experienced so many adventures that you can come and tell about them. So it’s not black and white. It’s it never is and you have to find what is relevant for you. And what is provides you the basis for a new career, a new adventure, and so on.

Matthew Dols 1:22:32
Thank you for the pep talk.

Hagai Segev 1:22:34
But it does work this way. I think so

Matthew Dols 1:22:36
I hope so.

Hagai Segev 1:22:39
There is a saying that you You are not a prophet in your homeland or hometown. And you when you go out, people regard you because you’re far away in a different way. And he has the courage to go away. And he has done so and so. And things look much better from afar. Sometimes not always. Yeah, I see.

Matthew Dols 1:23:01
I’m always thinking of the quote that says, when you sometimes when you move and things like this, you’re either running away from something or running towards something. And the question is which one, and I am always wondering whether I’m running away or running towards, I always hope I’m running towards. But yeah, not sure about that.

Hagai Segev 1:23:22
It can change.

Matthew Dols 1:23:23
Indeed, through the course of the product podcast, I’m going to attempt to get a piece of my artwork exhibited in the Museum of Modern Art, not an entire exhibition, not anything like that solo or anything like that, but just a single piece exhibit in the Museum of Modern Art. And every single person I talked to, I asked them for advice on a step. So I do not expect to the entire process from A to Zed On this. But the process is just a step in the process. What’s something that I should or could do that would assist in putting me on the path of having a piece of my artwork exhibited in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City?

Hagai Segev 1:24:05
Since I had time to think about it. I would be provocative. Why do you need to exhibit in the MoMA? how relevant is it to you? Personally,

Matthew Dols 1:24:14
it’s a good question. I like being questioned. The reason for that is because for the sake of the podcast, I wanted to create a quantifiable result. So the idea is, I’m going around talking to all these different people, curators, artists, gallery owners, whatever, in the arts world, trying to figure out how the industry works. And basically, I want to be able to quantifiably say, I learned how the arts world worked well enough to get a peace of mind work in Museum of Modern Art in New York. Okay, so

Hagai Segev 1:24:45
I’ll tell you again, I want to answer directly, but I will say have you ever asked or talked with the many artists who have been on exhibition at the MoMA or any other major museum Are they better? are they feeling better with themselves? And I can tell you that I have asked many people who’ve reached the top of their abilities and achievements. None of them are content. You can reach the MoMA, and you still will feel I can guarantee it to you, you will feel neglected and and praised and unaccomplished. So don’t even try to get and be what is best for you Don’t try to do something which is a superstar, or superhero image, which is visually an illusion.

Matthew Dols 1:25:45
I’ll accept that. And that’s a legitimate perspective on this. I’ll give you a secondary question. That was one of my that’s a further idea that I have about the potential sort of outcome of this continuing podcast, which is I hope that through the conversations that I have, from all the different conversations that I have, I am listeners can somehow glean some ability, some insights, some ideas that will assist me because of course, I’m, I’m an artist, I’m narcissistic, but we’ll assist other people that are listening in being able to sustain themselves in their career. Because that’s, personally, that’s my biggest goal is that I want to be able to afford to do what I want to do. So I want the space, the time the money, whatever it is, or all of it, to simply be able to create the work I want to create. So what about some advice to help? It doesn’t even matter artists, curator, whoever, some advice, from your experiences of like, how can people reach that ability to find that sort of sustainability in their own careers?

Hagai Segev 1:27:01
I think this is the one of the most difficult questions because it is really virtually impossible to sustain economically based on the artistic achievements. Only few less than 5%. I

Matthew Dols 1:27:14
think I’ve heard less than 1%

Hagai Segev 1:27:16
Yes, but I’m a bit generous, maybe 5%, are able to really do that. So what are you used to sell to my students at university is find a partner who is willing to support you in every whatever you do, because he’s less inclined to set conditions. And since it is almost impossible to have a sustainable life or lifestyle, in today’s economic conditions, you have to have the ability to free yourself from the other obligations. Now, it doesn’t work so easily, of course. So the other way is really drive yourself to the best of your abilities, don’t give up, never give up. Because if you persist, there is a chance that you will be able to really, really express and persuade other people that it is worthwhile to pay for those expressions that you are producing. There is no other way. If there is no if you are not in 100% or even more dedicated to your art, there is no way you will make a profit out of it. You can dedicate 100% of your life to art and there still will not be gaining, at least not at the beginning. Maybe it’s a later stage, but you have to continue and do whatever you believe in. Otherwise it’s not out. Fabulous.

Matthew Dols 1:28:49
Thank you very much for your time.

Hagai Segev 1:28:50
Thank you.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com