Transcript for Episode 011 – Sculptor + Painter, Richard Kočí (Prague, CZ)
Published on August 26, 2019
Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-sculptor-and-painter-richard-koci-prague-cz/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly.
Richard Koci 0:14
Okay. Last name I suppose Gucci. Richard Koci
Matthew Dols 0:25
Okay, but you’re at now you’re from so like, let’s start in the beginning because I’m often fascinated by about how do artists sort of get created? You know, like what kind of home life? Did they start off in? What would What did their parents do for a living kind of things, you know, different BM, I grew up in a household where my father’s somewhat of an artist does paintings and things like this, my mother’s an interior decorator, so kind of makes sense. So like, I’m always interested by other people how to what kind of home environment and they have the disease ended up defining the rest of their life. Now, well,
Richard Koci 0:57
I had a completely different, quite the opposite my family. When I look back, most of my, my father was an engineer, my mother actually as well. But most of my memories go back to the side of my mother, the family of my mother’s, because I had much more contact, I lived with them, we all share the big house, so and they were lawyers, most of them. So I was a bit of a odd ball, I guess. But it wasn’t the case that they would actually ever say, obviously, I had a tendency I would always draw as a kid, I would love to draw. But then I was so small that there was, besides, there’s another aspect that one has to take into consideration. We’re talking Czechoslovakia during the communist era. And so it was my problem was not what I would like to study. But what they would allow me to study, if you don’t mind, how old are you? I’m 6567. So Born in 1954.
Matthew Dols 2:15
Okay, so deep communism. Yeah. All right. In fact, it’s few years after, yeah, just getting a little bit of context for sort of like when you were talking about,
Richard Koci 2:24
right, so my family was somewhat persecuted at the time. So I was a perfect candidate for not being able to study as a matter of fact, they would not have allowed me to to study, no matter what my academic results would be. As a matter of fact, I was a straight A’s back then. So but they would not have allowed me to study,
Matthew Dols 2:50
study art or study, university, a university nurse,
Richard Koci 2:54
they would not let you there was a something that they called godhra watts equals rate, you know, it just kind of depends on what kind of family you what kind of family background? And of course, at that time, the desirable background was the worker, the Was it the blue collar? Is that the idea? So if you didn’t qualify, then you just didn’t, didn’t study? Simple as that.
Matthew Dols 3:24
Wow, it’s, it’s a different time. Now. I mean, that kind of mentality of the government sort of defining what you can and cannot study, as I hope has left?
Richard Koci 3:35
Oh, yeah, this is this has changed completely. And I think for most people, it’s inconceivable. Only those people who actually experienced it, who lived in that time, can relate to this. I know that the young people, they are the young kids, I mean, 1520 they know that this went on, but they have no way of relating to, they cannot really imagine it just the same as the fact that we could not freely travel anywhere, you know, just consider the reality that you could not visit any other country, there were just few countries like Poland or some other communist country that you can go to right. But even then you had to have all kinds of permissions. And one of the permissions was from your colleagues at work. So you know, there was a communist regime was a very weird thing. And there were a lot of subtle pressures. He was not only that, they would confiscate your your everything, or they would put you in jail, but they would, you know, exert these little pressures to make your life more miserable.
Matthew Dols 4:55
You know, I come from a capitalist American background and when this is all complete, foreign to me, the first interactions I’ve had with that was talking with my wife’s father, who they were raised in that era as well. And it is utterly foreign to me. Absolutely. I can see it in movies, read it in books, whatever. But living it, I would imagine would be a completely otherworldly kind of an experience, then then what I was raised with. You were talking about your childhood and then starting off in the Czech Republic, and then you made a move, right?
Richard Koci 5:32
Yes, I was, like I said, I was born in Prague. But I think my mother sin due to all these repressions and things that we just talked about. She planned on leaving, but it wasn’t so easy, because she didn’t know that 1968 was coming at she known obviously, she would have waited because in 1968, the, the gates opened and people could leave freely, and take all their stuff with them that they needed. Because this was another thing, those people who ran away basically, during the communism, they could not take anything that would raise suspicions. So
Matthew Dols 6:17
when did you leave? 67 years? Oh, wow. So right, just
Richard Koci 6:21
it was just before, right? It was exactly just before, and we spend a year in refugee camp in Germany, because back then that was the way to go is the only way to go. Whereas in 68, since there were so many people that that escaped, they had to change the rules and regulations. And people would spend, sometimes weeks, sometimes few months and not even in the refugee camps. So it was a whole different thing. But anyhow, so we lived in 67, my mother and my sister and myself, because father, let’s say had to stay behind because otherwise they would not let us visit in this. In this case, we went to England, I believe. I’m not sure how she got the permission because I was 13 at the time. So I didn’t plan anything. I just went along for the ride as all 13 year obviously, I knew that I would not come back because she actually told us, which was kind of weird. But as a kid, you see everything completely different. You just don’t have an experience. So So anyhow, I lived here until my auntie I just turned 13. And so we left I spent a year in Germany. And after that, we ended up in the States.
Matthew Dols 7:46
Okay, and where did you you were in Texas?
Richard Koci 7:48
Yeah, actually, she wanted to go to Canada. I remember that. But they wouldn’t let her in. Because she was a single woman with two kids. So they didn’t want a social case in their hand. So should we ended up in the States. And she chose the South. This was 1968. And she chose the South because she heard and I think she was right, that there were more opportunities than let’s say, I don’t know, East Coast or so we ended up in Houston and Houston back in the 60s was a very well, let’s put it this way, for someone who was used to living or being brought up in Prague. As Houston was just outer space, he was just totally changed. The language the world
Matthew Dols 8:48
just opened up into all of us started
Richard Koci 8:51
opening up later on, but at the beginning, I was just taking in the difference, the difference, all the differences, and they were huge in every aspect you can imagine. So that was an interesting period, because obviously I was 14 then after having spent the year in Germany, and that’s a delicate age, as I say, yeah, that’s like teenager anxi like, I could imagine drugs or drinking or some sort of weird, you know, some sort of, you know, off the thing, all of that came a little bit later. But I think at that time, and I see it with 13 years these days, you’re basically trying to define your identity, who you are, what you’re going to be what you’re going to do or Yeah, people around you. And so in my case, I had to put that on the on the back burner because first I had to get used to my new environment, because he was he was so in a way that might have been good might have been positive because I didn’t have time to think about myself too. I had to deal with other things. So I don’t think I had the classic puberty. You say rejection of this rejection? I didn’t have anything I had to accept. Yeah.
Matthew Dols 10:11
And so then your education continued there. And so the did you end up going to an art school where were we properly sort of educated in the arts, I went, I shouldn’t go properly. Formally.
Richard Koci 10:24
I actually though I didn’t want to be an artist that there was not exactly on my I did like to, I like to draw I like to, I didn’t paint I just drew and I modeled I remember, I, as a kid, I would love to model I play with that. But I never wanted to be an artist artists to me was I imagined from obviously, my limited way of, to me artists were the kind of people that were incapable of adjusting to a normal activity in life. That’s what I considered an artist to be. Let’s put it this way. I know. And I knew that there were these geniuses, and maybe I gave them a bit of a leeway. But the rest the bulk would probably I wouldn’t be part of. That’s the way I saw it. Now, of course, later on, I’ve I came to find out that it’s not exactly like that. But so i did i, the reason that I eventually ended up studying art, I think was that the guidance that my mother should have provided, and I can once again, look at that, in retrospect. Now, the time I didn’t know but so everything is what everything I say these days is a product of all these years of experience at the time, obviously had a different take on things. My mother was not the kind of parent that you would imagine a mother to be. She was very independent. And she gave us her kids 100% independence, not 99% 100. Wow. Which was odd, so much so that she by the time I was 16, and I had a driver’s license, she would she went and lived in another state. So there was no one there to tell me what to do, and how to do it. Now this at the time seemed quite lovely to me.
Matthew Dols 12:35
But of course, as a 16 year old, I would love my parents to have left the state right. But
Richard Koci 12:40
later on, you realize that that is not a constructive.
Matthew Dols 12:44
Sorry about that.
Richard Koci 12:47
Yeah, because, you know, you do have a natural tendency to blow things off, because that’s the way it is, as a teenager, you just do. And that was that was my case. I started having worse grades. I had pretty good grades up until then I didn’t go to school too much, because I would just write my absence. Your sister though she older, younger. She was she was older. So she already lived with a boyfriend. And so yeah,
Matthew Dols 13:15
so we were on our own. I don’t really like paying your own rent.
Richard Koci 13:21
Because my mother, she actually became a leader and she died. So she died very young. She’s 40 years old. So So I started paying my and before that she went bankrupt. So it’s kind of a so yeah, as of 18. I was on my own and I still, I was finishing senior high school at the time, because I had that year, I lost a year in Germany. By then I decided that I would be an artist that I would follow, but I think it was looking back now of course, I don’t know for sure. But I think it was a partially product of circumstances that I kind of considered, you know, because what I should mention, by then, I was modeling little sculptures, and I was selling those countries Actually, that’s what gave me money. That’s how I made my money while I was finishing high school. Okay, I would make these
Matthew Dols 14:17
sculpture. What were the sculptures? What figure Yeah,
Richard Koci 14:20
figures. You know what it was, it was kind of like Norman Rockwell in sculptures, I would make these kind of things out of daily, daily life scenes. He was kind of cute kind of tender, kind of, and people liked it. I would go to these. They call it art fairs back then. But what basically you rented a table with a whole bunch of other people around you. And I remember going to these. Yeah, they’re great. Yeah, they had food and everything. And so I would put my little things there and I would sell in that. That’s how I then I taught some class of modeling. But anyhow, so I already started getting into this art And so it was, I guess, kind of natural to continue studying. And so when I did finish high school, instead of architecture, which is what I thought I would kind of do, I always felt some kind of affinity without architecture. I can see that
Matthew Dols 15:15
with your with your sculptures. Yeah, there’s an architectural element to the construction of them.
Richard Koci 15:20
Yeah, I think there is absolutely, I think so too. But I went and I studied, I took a year off, because I really didn’t know what I was going to do. And then I went to Oregon, North Texas State, I think, near us in Denton near Dallas. It was a good school, good university, as far as art and music. And so I went there. But obviously, I had to support myself. So I would, I had a hard time finding a job because there was a small town, and 30,000 kids going to school.
Matthew Dols 15:56
That’s pretty big university, it was a big university. And it was very
Richard Koci 15:59
hard to find a job, because everybody wanted a
Matthew Dols 16:02
lot of people wanting to and this is where free the time when like student loans were popular and all that starting in the 80s and 90s. And
Richard Koci 16:10
now everybody says this is in the 70s, early, early 70s, what now mid 70s, something like that. But so I did find a job, I guess I was pretty lucky. But of course, I started out washing dishes in a restaurant, you know, then I worked my way up to I was a cook, which is funny because I can fix it. I can’t boil an egg. Yeah, I’m totally useless. But anyway, I did that for for a year. And I decided that that was not not necessary. If I wanted to be an artist, I felt that I could learn by myself.
Matthew Dols 16:50
Were you looking at other artists at the time? Like, did you have some inspirational like, for me, I can think of like some exhibitions I saw when I was like elementary school that that sort of, I’m not gonna say like, directly influenced, like, I worked like it. But that influenced me in a way that I’m like, wow. Like I was somehow inspired by
Richard Koci 17:10
Yeah, I think, as you mentioned before, you had the possibility, or your parents sort of opened some doors. And so I didn’t have that son, when you mentioned this, I don’t think I had any references except the classical classical classical figures that let’s say my family would, every once in a while mentioned, but I was a virgin in a way I hate it because so I hated everything. Because I didn’t understand any of that
Matthew Dols 17:46
stuff. And people either love Picasso or Hey, Picasso, like there’s no middle ground. But
Richard Koci 17:50
I today, obviously, I have a completely different picture. But at the time, I was like I said, I didn’t have any, I didn’t have a clue.
Matthew Dols 17:58
I also had the dumb luck of growing up in Washington, DC. So I had the entire Smithsonian Institution, free can just wander through it. I mean, this is what we did for thing for fun on weekends was just wander through the Smithsonian. So I mean, part of mine was my family. But part of it was also like I did have great opportunity to simply engage with history and science. And, you know, the Air and Space Museum and the portrait galleries and all these kinds of great things that I did, I did not take it probably take advantage of, and probably was not very good with fully embracing as much as I should have.
Richard Koci 18:37
But obviously, some of it stayed there, some of it, you did. So that’s that’s what it is. That’s what I think that’s what parents and that’s their main role to introduce kids to all sorts of things. And then later on, they’ll choose what they want to do. But first they have to be introduced, they have to have that contact if they don’t have any. So I didn’t have that. And as a matter of fact, for me, the interesting phase of my development, let’s say, came later on when I went to Spain, because shortly afterwards, I decided to leave the states and go back to Europe and I ended up in Spain, and I met a man. I was what I was 22 at the time, and this guy was not much older, but he he was a walking encyclopedia, he was a very unusual character. He spoke several languages excellently because I didn’t speak Spanish at the time we spoke English, he spoke English too. And he had a total command of modern art, classical art, music from jazz to opera, literature. And so this man befriended me or we, he he, I thought he was kind of weird, but he insisted so we became friends. And he really opened up he was Like a tutor, he opened up a whole new dimension to me, as far as art literature, not music so much. I didn’t really get into music, but literature and art I owe to and obviously, I learned a whole lot in all of my attitude of the mind. Everything changed.
Matthew Dols 20:19
Who are your musical influences? I mean, like, you know, I’ve got my, from my generation in my era, you know, but I’m always interested like, what kind of musics? Well, you know, when I
Richard Koci 20:29
was when I was living in the States, obviously, that area, that era of pop music is the classical Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin. All these people. Those are the mid seven stones or
Matthew Dols 20:43
Beatles.
Richard Koci 20:45
I actually, like both. I didn’t I didn’t didn’t have a problem. I like both. Yeah, okay. Yeah. All right. But this, this paint, this is when it all changed radically because I started understanding modern art. Up until then, I really didn’t understand it, I was looking at something and I had no, I didn’t know how to relate to it. And this change, this metamorphoses it, it was quick, it was fast. And for me, it was Renaissance, because I found a whole new world. So this is when I started. Of course, I was already concentrating on sculpture. But this is when I started opening in my, my, my, my inner world and, and reaching the inner world and trying to work more from the inside, although it was still a period of formation. So I guess there was a lot of influences from everywhere. It was interesting.
Matthew Dols 21:49
And so Okay, so now you’re in Spain and your mid 20s. And what are you doing to sort of get by like, I mean, you know, one of my big questions about this type podcast is basically, how do creative people make money? How do you stay alive? How do you sustain yourselves? Because like, oftentimes, we end up having to do side jobs, right? Basically, like very few of us ever get the opportunity to live directly from our art only. How did you see your progress and my
Richard Koci 22:18
my, I went, when I went to Spain, I managed to save a little money, but it was really not much that I was working. You know, as a waiter at nice restaurants, I saved some money. And Spain at the time, we’re talking a year after Franco died, Spain was a very backward country at the time and very cheap.
Matthew Dols 22:40
So we’re in Madrid,
Richard Koci 22:42
Madrid. Okay, so you could actually live for free, of course, you had to be willing to live in those conditions, I would share a room with other people and I would basically eat. Yeah, it was, it was, but I could get by. And this lasted for about almost two years, because at the time, it was impossible to to, there were no jobs for foreigners in Spain, it was impossible. And actually, two years later, I had to leave Spain, because I totally ran out of money. And I went back to the States, this time, I went to LA where I never been before. And I once again, worked for about a year, I saved some money, and I went back to Spain. And right at that time, Spain, this is 1980 1979 1980, Spain was becoming Spain was changing. Spain was going through a growth period, quite strong. People were making more money, people started being much more interested in art, and they had some means to buy original art. They didn’t have that much money to buy paintings or sculpture. But graphic work original graphic work had a huge, huge growth at that time. And I’m, since I was already doing graphics. So I managed to I had the good fortune, whatever, meeting some people who are dealing with graphic work and so I would start working for them I would print some of their prints for other people.
Matthew Dols 24:27
So he worked as a printer for other artists.
Richard Koci 24:29
Exactly. I bought a printing press and I would I made a functioning shop where I would print for other people but I would also do my own work. And I would sell to these people my own work so this meant and this kind of bloomed in this meant that my my standard of living grew every year got better and better and better. Of course, there was a price to pay. And that was time I had to give it the time and the creative energy. So you had to divide your creative energy, which I thought would not be a problem. But that is not necessarily true. It can be a problem.
Matthew Dols 25:19
Yeah, I mean, this is the balance that we all deal with. It’s the time money, energy creativity, like, What? How much do you devote to what? And what takes away from what,
Richard Koci 25:30
but as you say, when it’s a question of surviving, there’s really no other choice. Either you, either you have someone who will support you, or you have to make a living somewhere, somehow. And for me, at the time, it seemed much better choice than working in a shoe shop or whatever, which I’m not sure even if Yeah, I probably could have gotten a job by then. But so this was, this was nice. And I do however, remember that it became over it absorbed me too much. So about six years later, I decided to leave Madrid and go out in the country isolation, to try to re initiate or find my true identity as an artist. Sure, I was still young at the time. So that
Matthew Dols 26:26
would be 2029. ish. Exactly.
Richard Koci 26:29
Exactly. And I, I looked for months, for an adequate space, even as far as 100 kilometres outside of Madrid. And finally, I found a place which is not that far, it was about 35 kilometres out in the middle of nowhere as far as I thought. But it turned out that this was a preferred area for the weekend people to go. And so my isolation turned into probably my, my most outgoing period in my life. Oh, insane. That was amazing.
Matthew Dols 27:09
Well, that’s one of the things like a lot of creative people like, like, in my move here to Prague, I had this idea in my mind of what moving to Prague would mean, what how I would choose to be how I would define my life. And it is completely not what I wanted. And not what not, not not what I want it, but not what I expected, not what I plan. But yet, I’m really kind of enjoying it in its own way. So like, a lot of times, like the best laid plans don’t always work out the way you want them to. But sometimes they end up actually being the best thing for you,
Richard Koci 27:44
I find it in my life circumstance, or the circumstances have played a major role. In other words, something that I did not choose, but it just kind of was chosen for me now I understand that this can sound like an excuse. And I remember when I was younger, I would fight this because I strongly believe that everyone is responsible for themselves. But although I still believe everyone is responsible for what they do, and what they don’t do, but there are elements that end in my life, even from the very beginning, just leaving this country, it all kind of started this, this process where things were not imposed, but where things happened. This was, yeah, this was a constant repetition in my life. So I’ve kind of gotten used to it. But in this case, the problem was that I went there really to reflect you know, to interior eyes, or whatever you call it to to look into inside and all of a sudden, I found so much so many distractions, because there’s just so so much of it. And it was very, very attractive, that I had to slow down because it would have defeated the purpose that I that I went there. But as a matter of fact, I did manage I started working, I went back to sculpture, but that was not exactly feasible. So I started, so I thought okay, I will reduce it to reliefs, wooden reliefs, and that ended up that’s that’s the weird process that ended up with a plywood desk where we call this plywood sheets of
Matthew Dols 29:27
plywood to then
Richard Koci 29:28
carve into exactly so it went the other way I would carve into this. And that, by the way, is how I started painting. And that turned into painting for about a year I would paint on plywood no longer the thick ones, the thinner ones. And this was the beginning of my so my exit let’s say my going away to the country to find myself actually solved the problem. And I did. The only thing is that instead of sculpture I became a painter I painted for the next 13 years quite intensively. So it was it was interesting
Matthew Dols 30:04
painting, like traditional painting on canvas or painting on wood in a relief way, like was there even a dimensionality to it? Or was
Richard Koci 30:12
it the beginning traditional painting at the beginning, since I was finding my because I never painted before. So this was all new to me. And so I would work with a surface grade deal into the surface. Later on, since the wood became a bit of a problem because it was heavy. And so I wanted to paint on canvas. So I found out since I had a lot of experience with the etchings in with all sorts of different materials, synthetic materials that I would experiment with, I applied some of that to the painting. And so I would create the surface instead of inside outside. And I would paint on top of this synthetic paste, that gave me great results, because I would send it I would work it I really needed the, the surface as the main protagonist, what would be on top of that was almost secondary. But at the time, I would paint as very loose, almost abstract, still lives that were based on, I think, geometric form that had something to do with my being a sculpture. But there was the use of color. And I do remember these were very flat paintings, no perspective, intentionally. The background and the richness of the super imposing the different layers was kind of what I was looking for. And these paintings work beautifully took me about a year six months to a year to to be satisfied with the paintings and so as of night II seven or something like that, I think the paintings had some
Matthew Dols 31:59
now our and how are you selling them? I mean, you were living outside of Madrid 35 kilometers outside of Madrid? Did you have a gallery that was selling these for you? Did you already have some relations through your graphic art, right? We’re
Richard Koci 32:12
right, I never lost contact living 30 some kilometres, Madrid is less than an hour away that half an hour away. So I would maintain context. I don’t remember if I don’t know if I had a gallery at the time, but the paintings were actually so attracted, that they all sold, just through even my friends and people that would see it, they would, and they were big, I was painting large. I was like the large format. So I remember that that was another new twist or new beginning in my because all of a sudden, I would I was making much more money because I was still doing the etchings. And on top of that I would be selling paintings actually start. I sold all of those paintings, all those paintings back then for I think there was maybe five years that I painted, he got more complicated as it as it evolved. And I eventually, it turned into abstraction. And so and ended up in minimalism, that was a dead end, both for me and for sales.
Matthew Dols 33:19
Really. So that was the you were off on your timing or whatever. Like it just didn’t, didn’t pan out. You say you ended up going in a direction that just didn’t exactly work. That’s what happened to me.
Richard Koci 33:29
Yeah. So I had I had I in the beginning. And during years, I really had a lot of success with those paintings. Until I start, I started painting. Yeah, they became, they became difficult they became, yeah, it was a type of minimalist. People didn’t care for that that much.
Matthew Dols 33:50
This is part of the idea of the podcast is hearing about things that didn’t work, you know, they you work in a particular genre, and you get known for it, and people collect it, and they purchase it. And then eventually, as an artist, we evolve we started working in, you know, either you get more intricate and elaborate, or maybe you get more minimalist or you get more abstract. And sometimes with some artists and some art work, you sort of get to a tipping point where it suddenly people don’t like it or it’s not on trend or people aren’t willing to pay the price for whatever things change in the in the art world and you’re either ahead of the time of the curve or you’re behind the curve. But you don’t know why. And and so you have to sort of, again, be a little introspective and figure out what did you What do you have to do next and maybe get back on track. So like what did you do? How did you get it back?
Richard Koci 34:47
Well, I am and always was a firm believer in evolution. I did not care to continue working in the same Fashion simply because it would satisfy the market, I had some need to move on. And there is a, an important element to take into consideration. And that is that around the early 90s, the communist regime in Czechoslovakia fell. Because we’re moving in my careers, we’re talking about it, we’re moving into the 90s. And so obviously having or living in Spain, which is not that far, I would very keenly observe what was going on here. As a matter of fact, I started coming to Prague on regular basis, which before was impossible,
Matthew Dols 35:43
you still had family here,
Richard Koci 35:45
I still had relatives. That’s right. And so I started almost, or within few years, I almost lived in two places. At the same time, my main base was in Spain, because I had been there for years by then. And all my life or my friends or my activities were, Prague was an interesting place at the time, because it was obvious that he was going through a total transformation. And I was trying to find my roots, I’m not really someone who would give roots, too much of an importance, because I had by then relocated at least two times, if I don’t consider Germany, I never tended to stay there. But both the states and Spain, I felt perfectly integrated. I felt like I was a part of that culture. Never felt that I had any. So I didn’t have the need to, you know, look for some
Matthew Dols 36:53
Did you were you did you start having a family or anything like this by this point, not, because
Richard Koci 36:59
that probably would tie in with you mentioned before what artists do to survive, I was acutely aware that if I had a family that would jeopardize my freedom to let’s say, create, with no, no pressure, so that I always avoided, I thought it would come one day, but I think I made way too much effort to avoid it. So that never happened. Well, I shouldn’t say never because I do have a daughter, I
Matthew Dols 37:35
could have sworn Yeah, I remember a story of you telling me about a daughter.
Richard Koci 37:39
So but that happened later on here in here in Czech Republic, because so I started coming here and just to, to to tie the two pieces that we mentioned before, where I took the the work from the minimal minimalist, that was mid 90s. And at that time, I started very seriously thinking of going back to sculpture, because I was painting by now I was painting for 13 years. And I am a sculptor, I consider myself a sculptor, not a painter. So right around the 96 i 9596. I, I was maturing the type of work that I wanted to do, because in a way 1315 period Actually, it was more than that, because I while I was doing etchings, I wasn’t doing any sculpture. So there was a long absence from from three dimension. And I was thinking of what I wanted to do. And in 1997 it all came to to be I had a wonderful studio in Prague, I had the means. And I started making these large wooden objects architecture, just like you mentioned. And all of a sudden, I felt that my work was 100% mature 100% I might have deceived myself, but that’s the way we all think
Matthew Dols 39:12
it’s really great when we like find that thing, whether it’s a concept or a technique or whatever, where we suddenly are like, Oh my gosh, this is the thing that’s gonna define my career. And then like, 10 years later, you look back and you’re like, yeah, it was okay.
Richard Koci 39:28
Right. But in this case, I think it was more than okay. It actually probably was the first and I started having all kinds of feedback and success and I guess my my name got on the map here and that changed. Also my once again the circumstances so I relocated from Spain to Prague, not 100% but I would switch the main base At the time, he was in Madrid, so now he was Prague and I would be going to Madrid and I would be going back and forth all the time. So I had been yours for years, I would be going back and forth. And people would always, when I mentioned to someone that I was living in two places, they, they always told me that they thought it was wonderful and great. But it was not that great, because by then I felt that I really didn’t belong to either one, there was a bit of a schizophrenia there or something, I didn’t really enjoy it as much as everyone thought it would be. Yeah,
Matthew Dols 40:35
this is a common thing that’s been coming up with these, these conversations I’ve been having with people is the idea of like, building a personal network of connections and feeling like you’re part of a, of a creative community. And, and in doing something like this, where you’re going between two cities, you’re sort of half part of one community and half part of the other community, but like, it sounds like from what I’ve been hearing about from people is that basically, the thing is, in order to truly sort of progress your career, you really have to devote yourself to a community and be part of it and grow with it and, and be involved in it. And I would imagine going back and forth between two cities would make that very difficult.
Richard Koci 41:15
And I must say that I never felt more as an outsider than I then here in Prague. Yeah, yeah. I, you know, having left at a relatively early age, people can of course, I spoke check, and you can notice, but people related to immigrants in a kind of a strange way, but like you just mentioned, I found out which at the time, I really didn’t know just how important these life contacts, you know, people that went to school with you, and how important this really was. And they were not terribly keen to taking anyone in, you know, they would very much mark the boundaries. And so I, at the time, though, I didn’t mind because I was totally independent. Totally. I had the studio that I needed to have, I was producing the work. And I had some feedback. So I did not really care. Later on, it became more of an obstacle, because some of these walls are really hard to knock down or to the I really didn’t, I guess I underestimated it a little bit. I thought it’ll solve each other. But yeah,
Matthew Dols 42:46
yeah, I’m finding the same thing when I got here. I mean, I imagine coming to Europe that the they would be receptive to a foreign artists coming, maybe I’d end up being like, exotic to them or whatever. And absolutely not, they don’t really care that much about outsiders. I mean, it just takes time. They’re they’re just a little trepidatious about like, newcomers coming into their, their circle in their spheres, which I get it, I understand that, because there are a lot of foreigners sort of coming into this region, and they don’t, so a lot of them don’t stay for very long. So I understand their their concerns about including somebody who might end up leaving, you know, too, too easily or too quickly.
Richard Koci 43:30
That is the point of view of the galleries. But I’m talking also about the artists. Yeah, fellow artists, yeah, people, that their attitude, their attitude was certainly not very helpful.
Matthew Dols 43:43
Well, going back to the business part of it. So when you got to Prague, did you get a gallery? Or were you exhibiting like, how did you get your Yeah, I do want to get back to the people and how you got part of a community here. But I’m also interested in how did you start to engage in finding collectors and exhibiting and get and building a reputation for your art in this region versus Spain?
Richard Koci 44:08
Well, the first thing I did back then, since I didn’t know anyone, and obviously no one knew me because I didn’t live you. I joined some, it was it was some kind of an artist or group
Matthew Dols 44:24
like a guild or something
Richard Koci 44:26
like that. And they so I started meeting some people through this and they had some shows every once in a while. So that was the first contact. But I think what happened was, by the time that I started making these new sculptures, which really did have a very solid, something to them, the doors started opening because people reacted on the basis of the work and I did have a show at a minus gallery way back in 1999, and then another one in 2000. One Manas gallery at the time, it was still the emblematic gallery of course, later on, unfortunately, through political it, which is not all that that’s a few years back, but for for a long time. This was a very important gallery and beautiful space. And so that’s sort of put me on the map, because most artists would regularly go visit that space, because there was there wasn’t that many galleries in, in in Prague the time?
Matthew Dols 45:37
No. So the man, was it a solo exhibition? or How did that work out? So there was a solo
Richard Koci 45:43
exhibition? They did have a committee sort of back then that chose, it was not only question of price, because they did. I was used to in Spain, there were no commercial galleries in the sense that you would buy or rent the space that didn’t exist. You if it did, I never, ever, you would either be a part of the gallery, or maybe sometimes they would give you a show, even if you were not, but you wouldn’t pay for having the show. Whereas all of us, and here in Czech Republic, you would pay for the expenses. And so that kind of devaluated some of the some of the exhibitions in my in my eyes, however, in this case, they also, so you would find a sponsor would pay the cost, but they did choose. And so you had some kind of a guarantee that the level of what they would exhibit, let’s say would be regular or it wouldn’t, you know, jump from from so Manas was at the time, my kind of like introduction because no one knew me. And that brought in other people. I think my problem back then was that I was doing sculpture mainly out of wood, which meant that it was solely for the interior, right, so big that it certainly could not be collected by individuals, it had to be for public or semi public spaces. And that turned out to be a bit of a problem, not because of the work in itself, I don’t think but because of the people that would be willing and able or able and willing to deal with it because it was much more complicated. Sure, for galleries, then I don’t know painting. So that became a problem. And I think that became a major issue.
Matthew Dols 47:49
I want to ask one little question. So the small divergence. When you apply the weight you I assume you’re like applied for this exhibition at magnets. Exactly. I’m fascinated about people writing their artists statements or their application processes. Like do you write your own? Oh, yeah,
Richard Koci 48:06
yeah. Oh, yeah. But I, I don’t have much of a problem.
Matthew Dols 48:11
Yeah, I do. I’m so bad. Yeah. Yeah, I find it’s very difficult to detach myself from the work I feel very defensive, almost even have like, come on. It’s good. You kind of like you, you want to cheerlead it. And I’m horrible at,
Richard Koci 48:28
I can understand this, I can understand this. But I must say that at the time that I was doing this new work, I really, really believed that it was very special. modesty aside, I really believed in it. And I really, and I still consider that phase of my work as, so I didn’t have much of a problem, let’s say, selling it or promoting it, nor talking about it, because I had a very clear discourse behind it. There was a reason why I was doing that, and why I was doing that and how I would relate to it. So I could, you know, I could verbalize all that with not much,
Matthew Dols 49:06
I can do it. Like, I could do an artist talk for an hour, I could talk about it. But it’s the construct of being able to do it concisely in very short form, you know, the, the the clear, concise, written statement that doesn’t ramble on and do quote random things and all this kind of stuff like that. That’s tough for me, I don’t know, you seem to be very good at it. And I envy that I admire that. Like, I can’t do that.
Richard Koci 49:34
Sometimes when I read the critics reviews, you would almost feel embarrassed or ashamed because they talk about everything and nothing. And some of these artists statements are the same thing. You know, it’s all literature, high tech, literature, philosophy, and it doesn’t mean anything. So I kind of don’t like that. I don’t like that.
Matthew Dols 49:55
So okay, well, so when you write your artist statement, so let’s say you know, for your most recent work Even How do you approach writing your artist statement?
Richard Koci 50:06
A few years back, I came to find out that essence of my work has to be auto biography, it has to be me, that was the beginning of actually better work in my evolution when I say, because we all are full of influences, it’s inevitable. And we pick up here we pick up there, sometimes you don’t even know where you picked it up, but it’s there. So I remember making a conscious effort way back to find out what it is that I am to analyze myself, and to analyze. And I realized that one of the things that I am, is contradictions, one of the strong aspects, it’s probably once again, through my history through my circumstances, but contradictions, duality, and all this played a huge importance. And I even saw some of the elements elements in my, in my paintings. And so I started concentrating on this and carrying it into my work. So it was not that hard for me to talk about it, because I would be explaining the importance of expressing how I see not only art, but an individual within his environment, making art now is what is the perception of that individual under or with his life experiences, because that’s what art is, art is, I am no more than a channel of my experiences, my interpretations of what I see and then given it some kind of a form.
Matthew Dols 51:55
Did you do this all by yourself? Did you have a friend to sort of talk with this out? Did you go to a therapist? Like how to how did you sort of come to this self? Do you journal like do you write free? I
Richard Koci 52:07
do write you write, I write? No, I didn’t go to any It was a process? And I think it is. I do, I guess I do reflect I like to think I like to analyze maybe too much, maybe too much.
Matthew Dols 52:21
We all do.
Richard Koci 52:23
This cerebral, I don’t know. But for some things, it’s good. For some things, it may or may not be all that all that good. But I like to write i would i do have journals, which is not a diary, I just write down ideas. And I don’t write down what I did every day or what happened, but just just ideas. And I used to spend hours in cafes, I would be I loved cafes. And with a coffee, I don’t smoke, I haven’t been I stopped smoking long time ago, but I still go there, I have my coffee and I would ride I would read I would think I would reflect because I needed a break from the studio, you know, I would go to the studio in the morning. And then I needed to get out of studios. So I would, I would gain energy from people around because the studio you’re there all by yourself all day long. And so I really did gain energy from just people around me. And I would write and think and that would be a big, big part of my creative process.
Matthew Dols 53:29
So up to this point. So now you’re in Prague, and you’re you’re doing sculpture now did, were you sustaining yourself through your art so that your entire income at that point was through sales of art? Or did you still have to do some additional jobs and side work to keep going
Richard Koci 53:48
my circumstance. As I mentioned in Spain, I would be selling not only the graphic work, but the painting. So financially, I was actually doing quite well. But in the mid 90s, I was kind of lucky. Let’s put it that way. Because I came to some money. Let’s Let’s so I could add that. That’s why I mentioned that I had this the the means to do those large at that time. I could afford to have a very nice studio, and I could pay for the sculptures. I did it all myself all the work. I did have an assistant for about two or three years, which was also essential because at the time, like I said, I started doing work that I never did before. And technically had I not had this guy who was quite quite able. I don’t know if I would have been if I would have been able to carry it out because I wouldn’t know how to do it because I had the idea but so I learned a lot through him. But I had the means let’s put it this way for years. I could freely I could just do what I want it, I had some limitations. I couldn’t cast everything in bronze, et cetera, et cetera. But I could just go on. And it was wonderful. It lasted for a long time. And it was great.
Matthew Dols 55:16
So we were talking a little bit about the idea of like, how to get yourself How to Be your own public relations, how to get yourself out into the art world, how to participate in it, how to present yourself to the public, how to present yourself to galleries, it’s hard, like we were talking about, is that when I go, I can sell the shit out of somebody else’s artwork, no problem, because I’m detached from it, it’s not me. But when I walk into an art guy, and I’m trying to sell myself it’s it’s very emotional, it’s very, creates anxiety and very, extremely self conscious process to to basically go with hands out hard, hard on your sleeve, going in a pretty please, will you like my stuff? That’s a difficult thing for every artist to do. I imagine.
Richard Koci 56:04
I think it’s, I think it’s difficult for many artists, I also know that there are artists who have absolutely no problem with selling themselves. I myself always envied them this ability, because I do not belong in that category. And I never have interesting enough, in my experience, having reached maturity, let’s say, and certain inherent quality in that work, did not necessarily change my way of approaching this, it still is the same. So I don’t know how, why that but I do think this is one of the most important elements in any artists career, it’s the way they are able to promote their work, because one has to keep in mind that no one a priori knows that they exist. And it is their responsibility to make their name become part of the existence out there. And in my case, when I was younger, of course, I am from a different generation. And back then the way it worked, was a young artist started to participate in group shows. And his hope was that from the group shows a good gallery would choose him. And then they would start supporting his art and therefore creating his career. That was really the only way there were no agents, or there were so few agents that they were not available, you really had to go through the gallery system, but that had certain rules and regulations, such as, for example, that you usually started as a young artist, it was very difficult for an older artist that had no background to all of a sudden appear and be able to convince a gallery to take him on. Because unfortunately, even back then the quality of the work is a relative element. In other words, what I’m trying to say, I know that every artist thinks that he’s the next best thing to Jesus Christ or whatever. But there are such a thing as mediocrity, great and worse. And sometimes it’s very difficult to, let’s say, distinguished, determined, but yes, worse things can have much more success than let’s say good things. Now, this happened in the past happens now and will happen forever. So whose responsibility is to? Now an artist obviously thinks, Oh, this is unjust, and why am I the, but it is up to him really, to do something about it. And he has the natural ability to stand up for Ford, he believes, I think he’s got 90% of the battle one. If not, and I am once again, unfortunately, I’m not one of those, then you are just gonna have a very long road to mochas road that you really don’t know how it’s going to turn out. Because I’m absolutely convinced that these days promotion of work is essential. It’s much more important than actually the work in itself, which is terrible, by the way it is.
Matthew Dols 59:50
I was gonna say that’s a very sad state of affairs executive said exactly. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I mean, it’s always been a part of it that you have to promote your work in some way. I mean, We had the old sort of thought, the old thought, exercise of like if you make the most amazing piece of art in the world, but you never show it to anybody, did it exist and doesn’t matter. You know, it’s like, you have to show it to somebody, you have to get it out into the world. And so whether, you know, we chose the creative industries, because we didn’t want to deal with business generally, like most people that I know, in the creative industries have said, Oh, I don’t want to be part of XYZ industries. But in the end be even being creative. We become part of those industries, either, because there are collectors or because we simply just have to engage in it. But we have to find a balancing act like we do have to do a certain amount like I’ve heard. Some other people wrote, like, the artist in this day and age basically should do like three days in the studio three days promoting every week, like, well, that’s six days a week, that’s too much, but three days in the studio two days promoting every week, just to keep up.
Richard Koci 1:00:59
Yeah, but what is that promoting an artist, an artist of certain age, let’s say cannot take his portfolio under his arm and go visit a gallery, at least not in Europe, maybe in the States, they’re more open to this format, but not in Europe. So it’s not possible. And once again, it makes no difference whether the work, maybe now this is true, because obviously I’m speaking in general, they’re always
Matthew Dols 1:01:32
when you’re speaking from your own personal experience.
Richard Koci 1:01:35
But I don’t exactly know what it would have to be. Yes, I can imagine that that would happen that someone would just stun the gallery’s really cannot imagine in this age of eclecticism and postmodern where everything is art. And I really don’t know what this would be. But I think an artist has to number one, reach that level where that work of his his Interesting, interesting there has to be something to offer. And then, like you say, if he doesn’t get it out there and then no one’s gonna know it exists. The fear of rejection, which is something that I think about a lot, is I know that if I don’t even try I have to know from the very beginning
Matthew Dols 1:02:30
Yeah, my parents used to say, if you don’t ask the question, the answer is always No,
Richard Koci 1:02:36
this is so true. But it’s very hard to overcome because if you don’t get rejected you can always console yourself that well that you didn’t get rejected whereas if you go out there put your put yourself out there and they say no, well then then it’s then your your I think, I don’t know I think it is a deep down it must be some kind of a form of of ego or fear of rejection.
Matthew Dols 1:03:03
Oh absolutely. I completely have fear of rejection, I will fully admit that I mean, there’s the the nature of the arts world is you know, 90 if you’re lucky only 90% of your attempts at whatever are rejected you but we have to learn over time that the you have to put aside all the rejections because you’re going to be rejected a lot throughout your career. And you have to try to find a way within yourself to truly appreciate and and and even like if we’re gonna say it as a business thing, leverage the successes to continue to create success. Because if you fixate too much on the the rejections, it’s going to be a self fulfilling prophecy.
Richard Koci 1:03:50
Yeah, and besides, I’ve always believed that this this statement, you know, you cannot please everyone all the time. So there’s always going to be someone who’s just not going to agree and that cannot intimidate you so much that you don’t even state your opinion. Yeah, that’s the way it is. And but art is such an intimate or one’s own art is such an intimate expression of his being that yes, it’s hard to be are to be rejected, but like I say, it’s not even a question of doubting your own work. You don’t doubt your work. And I think another frustrating element must be that we you know, they say I remember way back people would start saying that art should not be compared judge that it should be but it’s not true. We judge everything we do everything it since we’re born practically since we have the use of we judge were brought brought up that way. And we compare and this is better, that is worse. And the criteria to determine Herman, what’s good and what’s bad are very relative these days, it’s not black and white. And so, yes, it can be very frustrating for someone who considers his own work of, let’s say, pretty high level, and not getting any recognition for it. And then he sees everywhere around him that let’s say work, that is a lot less. And so why does this happen out? Well, you know, life is not just there’s no justice, we always look for justice. And we, but that’s, that’s no, it was never meant to be that way. And so once again, we’re back to, to what we just said, it’s up to you, or me as an artist, to try to get that place that I think I deserve. And if I don’t deserve it, and I’m competent, able, and maybe I can even get more. It’s like that with everything else.
Matthew Dols 1:05:58
What are your aspirations, like? So let’s say, money’s no object, time, space, whatever is no objects kind of thing. What is the one thing that you you feel? could or would be the, like, the pinnacle of your career? If you can accomplish this thing? You know, you’ve succeeded? Okay,
Richard Koci 1:06:18
well, I would have to begin though, once again, this is a process when I was younger, and I had limited knowledge of everything. I considered fame and fortune as an artist as the but I had no idea what that meant. later on. When I started, when I when I learned more about art, I realized that there were certain artists who discovered new, let’s say, new forms of are new. So I think as a very young artist, you might think, eventually, you will discover something, of course, that is extremely difficult, if not impossible, I certainly do not think that I discover anything new for me, the important thing was to be discovering new things for myself for me, because if I consider this as an evolution, as a linear process that starts at a point A and goes on, then I am quite aware that I may discover something that I didn’t know. But a whole lot of other people have already been there. So it would be silly to think that I will open some doors for everyone. But yes, at the end of this process, my goal would be and always, always was, I would like to create work that real that other people can relate to. And they can find not only an immediate answer, but more they look at it more, let’s say lectures, or more meaning or more communication, they would get out of it has to be a long term communication, and not just something that is a 111 time affair. And that work should Yes, I think as an artist, you need to have some kind of acceptance on the part of the people who who are part of the art market, that’s the galleries, the museums, the collectors. If this symbiosis doesn’t happen, then I think an artist can never feel satisfaction, you will feel every time you have a limited success. Maybe someone buys something, maybe someone just says, Hey, this is great. I love it. It makes you feel good. It gives you energy to go on. But as an artist who spends all his life trying to reach you need to have and I think the museum shows are part of that satisfaction, because you get a whole different audience. And I guess another essential part would be to be able to live off of what you do, you have to generate enough income to be able to continue doing it. Fame, as such, is nice. I’m sure. I mean, I am not someone who can really judge from experience. I think it would be nice because we all have an ego I have an ego. And I try to work with it. So that it doesn’t
Matthew Dols 1:09:41
keep it under wraps. Yeah, yeah.
Richard Koci 1:09:44
But But yeah, so I guess almost I would say at my age, where does my head my analytical allow me to, to to you know to go because I have a tendency to, to subdue my ambitions or let’s say, keep it under control. And I think that may not be the way to go. I think it’s, as a matter of fact, I think it’s desirable to just open the gates and let your dreams and visions and everything else ran go wild or whatever, I don’t think it’s good to, to try to be humble and and and all these things that I used to value so much
Matthew Dols 1:10:35
do you feel like sometimes artists are self sabotaging themselves in some way they under either they’re over. They’re overly ambitious like that they want something so big that they that they lack the ability to do the step by step process, the climbing of the ladder to get to it, or the the the anxiety and the self consciousness, sort of getting in the way of your own success in many ways.
Richard Koci 1:11:01
You know, in a way, I’m not sure this happens. But in a way, let’s say, in nature, the toughest and the strongest survive, that’s the way it is. That’s basically the the the evolution. So if an artist is too weak to meet, or two, then he probably doesn’t deserve. Now, if you have a personality, however, that cannot go that way. Well, that’s too bad. And in your case, it’s devastating because you only have one life to live. But looking at it from a more broader point of view, nothing happens. Because, you know, the world is not gonna be poor because of that. It’s just your problem. So yes, absolutely. This is a, this is the case, I have a friend. Because we can extrapolate this to everything. I have a friend. And I remember when we were younger, we all had this beautiful girl, I would love to meet her I would love to. And I cannot bring myself to say hi, I’m this, this, because she’s whatever, this friend of mine. I remember he approached the girl that he had practically no possibilities of success. She said no. But he kept on. Finally to make a long story short, they married they had a and they’ve been together for the past 35 years. Against all odds, and he went after it. And it’s the same thing with art you have to and if you don’t, just like we didn’t i didn’t talk to that girl that I always thought she would be. Well, I missed out. No big deal. For me. It’s so last but it’s nothing happened.
Matthew Dols 1:12:47
Yeah. Okay, so let’s go back to some earlier conversations about like, sort of the business. So where where are you? No, no, I mean, this stuff’s great. But like, Where are you now, in your professional career? Are you? Do you have galleries now? And one of the big questions I also have, too, that seems to be coming up again, and again, here is a lot of people have galleries or collectors or exhibitions in the Czech Republic, but they don’t seem to get outside the gym a lot. So I’m interested, are you actively engaging outside the Czech Republic?
Richard Koci 1:13:20
I was because I was always partially here and partially there. So for a long time, I was working with a gallery in Spain. And I was working with a gallery in in the States. In fact, I still have the gallery in the States. But quite honestly, I found out that if you’re not physically present, that I never really thought this would be a huge problem. Because I thought once again, the work would speak for itself. But
Matthew Dols 1:13:49
we all want that we all want to be able to just make work, put it out in public, and people appreciate it. But there’s so much more in the business of the art rather than the practice of being an artist that you have to be there you have to
Richard Koci 1:14:04
but once again, your present, once again, I think this is a domain, the very famous artists don’t have to be there. Of course, if the if the collector has the possibility to talk to him and meet him, they’ll be thrilled. But it’s not essential they were by his work anyway. However, the lesser known artists, I think that the potential collectors really thrive on having some kind of a personal relationship with the artist. So the gallery needs this support from the artist. And so if you don’t live in that place, because obviously one would think well when I go there and I spend their two weeks where we can, but it doesn’t work that way because those people don’t have time or when it has to be at on their terms when they have time and and things come up part or this or that. And if you’re not there, you just cannot take advantage of these things. So this is a much bigger hindrance, much bigger problem than I that I thought it would be. So I’ve at least I, that’s my, my experience. And I feel this. And here in Czech Republic, up until it hasn’t been all that long that we’ve had a commercial. I mean, private commercial galleries not staying state owned or museums. And now we do. And I even think that the art market is actually quite healthy here. Certainly, there’s a huge market for the classic art as a matter of fact, it’s, it’s huge, because that’s purely investment purely against people like it, but it’s, it’s it’s mainly, but even the younger generation. But I think, I suspect that the channels are very hermetic very closed, it’s not very easy for an artist to appear and to be accepted by these, let’s say, by these circles have, but it it certainly exists. Yeah, it’s a very individual, you know, it’s very individual. Now, it’s, it’s very hard to tell someone, what you have to do to, yeah, it’s practically impossible when because
Matthew Dols 1:16:27
there’s a balancing act on that, like, I can think back to people that I remember, when I used to go out to a lot of art openings, and a lot of events, there were people that I would see everywhere, and it’s one of the things that it sounds stupid, but like, if you’re at too many art events, that’s bad. If you’re too few art events, that’s also bad. And there’s a magical amount of sort of almost personal exposure to the to the buying public, the the curators, the, the gallery owners, whatever, that is the right amount, like too little, they forget about you basically, because out of sight, out of mind, and too much. And they kind of almost get annoyed by you, because you’re just everywhere. And it’s there’s that magical amount that it’s an intangible, and I don’t know what it is. But it’s fascinating that like, there’s there’s a huge amount of personal connections, personal relationships, and personalities that can both benefit your career but also hurt your career.
Richard Koci 1:17:28
I think you’re probably right, I always thought once again, because this is something that I’ve always considered, I still do that the final end element with the thing that determines everything should be the work. And that is what should be judged. So if I go to an opening every night, and I talked to 100 people, and then I show them something that they have absolutely no interested in, then it’s not going to advance my career in any way. And this is the problem once again, back to what I said before that the evaluation of what is interesting, what is good. That’s everybody has a different point of view.
Matthew Dols 1:18:12
So when with social media, there’s exponentially more people that now have an opinion on it, and give it freely without any sort of expertise, like social media has made it so that critics to a certain extent, almost are not too relevant in this day and age, because basically everybody feels the ability and the freedom to give their name. And
Richard Koci 1:18:35
so we can leave it at that we can leave it at the fact that there is a whole bunch of gray area, but that there there also is art that is beyond any doubt, really good. Why does this art Why is this not recognized? Immediately or? Or eventually? Because it’s not? Not necessarily.
Matthew Dols 1:18:56
I know, it pains me. I mean, I know many, many artists who are spectacular artists, like they are phenomenal, whether it’s their craftsmanship, or their concepts or balance of the two, whatever. And they never get that recognition or it takes a long time. They don’t get it until later in their life, or they got it early in their life. And they lost it as it went on. Like I mean, so
Richard Koci 1:19:18
that means that one should also accept the fact that art part of art is business, a huge part of art is business artists. When he starts creating, he wants to be pure, he wants to do the things because he feels it and he needs but sooner or later one has to come to terms with the financial with the business aspect of art. And I suspect that those people who do know how to handle that are the ones that are probably more successful than the other ones.
Matthew Dols 1:19:55
Sure. I mean, we I always whenever that conversation comes up, I always go back to Damien Hirst I mean, he’s a genius, what but he came from the financial background that that was originally at Jeff Koons same thing, you know, their, their minds and their philosophies on the creation of their work in the beginning, was financial. And so they end up being the, you know, some of the most successful people. And, and many of us, like, I went to art school, and nobody taught me anything about business law of finances, contracts, nothing, I learned none of it. And then I was dropped into the art world, they’re like, go be an artist. And I believe that the academic industry has fallen into a cycle where they don’t prepare artists for actually the business, the finances, the running of an indie the industry, that is their art form. They, they teach them how to work with paint, they teach them how to sculpt, they teach them how to make a photograph, or a video, whatever medium you work in, but they don’t actually prepare you for the realities. They but
Richard Koci 1:21:00
I think, yeah, but quite often, it’s just pure contradiction, because the artist does not have that ability. They can teach you in school, what you should do. But that does not mean that you’re going to be able to do that,
Matthew Dols 1:21:18
or be willing to or be
Richard Koci 1:21:19
be willing, yeah, one or the other. It’s the same thing in psychology, I used to think I remember I used to think that when I realized what my problem is that it will go away. It does not go away. Absolutely not, it does not go away. So recognizing the problem does not solve the problem. And sometimes this is insurmountable, or an artist, from his nature, I think is not a businessman. Those people are an exception. Damien Hirst is an exception, I think, of course, way, way back. For me, Dali was a same type of he was a genius at selling himself. Of course, he also knew how to paint. And he also contributed, let’s say another take another view on, but he was a genius itself.
Matthew Dols 1:22:08
Andy Warhol, also, I
Richard Koci 1:22:09
mean, Andy Warhol,
Matthew Dols 1:22:11
but it seems like there’s like a different, you know, some people say mindset, some people say like, the left side of the right side of the brain, the creative side, the the logical side kind of thing. I feel like, whatever that skill is there, that ability is to do to do those financial stuff, like I just while I can learn it, and I can understand it. I don’t feel like it’s something that’s in my nature, like, it’s just not the way I think about things like, yeah, that’s the problem I was raised with my family was very much a community grew my father’s a Reverend, a minister, I don’t know what people listen to you a priest. And it is all about building community and being part of a community and helping and supporting and these kinds of, and that’s that lifestyle. That idea is not about personal gain, and personal financial success and things like that. I mean, maybe it comes because you are supportive of that. But I come from the background where you support the community, the community, and you’re part of that community, and therefore, everybody gets supported a little bit more. But that’s not really true, because it may it’s still business. In the end,
Richard Koci 1:23:19
I think it is business. I remember I have few recollections are at Julian Schnabel. That’s a very, very, very famous artist. Well, he’s from Texas. And he spent some time in Houston before he went to New York. And I knew some people who knew him, in fact, the director of the Museum of Fine Arts. And this is probably no secret. So I don’t think um, it turned out that Julian Schnabel was calling him three times a week for six months to give him a show with the fine art museum. And finally, he gave in and he he gave him the show, and that was the beginning of his career. Now, are you able to call the director of the museum three times a week for six months?
Matthew Dols 1:24:05
these days? No, no. Back in a certain time period, that director may have actually picked up the phone. But these days, I mean, between assistants and secretaries, whatever, executive assistants, emails, filters, caller ID like that would be literally impossible, technically possible. But
Richard Koci 1:24:26
the fact is that he was so diligent, so pushy, in a way, and it gave him the result. Had he not done that? Probably, probably, well, who knows what would have happened with his career, but that was the beginning and important.
Matthew Dols 1:24:43
All right. So let’s try and start to wrap this up. I generally end my podcast with two questions that I ask every person is willing to sit with me. The first one is the definition of success. So first of all, sort of defining the idea of what is success in the arts world. to you whether that means being in the annals of art history, whether it means having an institutional solo show, or is it financial stability, so some sort of definition of what success means to you. And then some ideas of ways to either achieve it or some failures, you had that somehow, maybe were a stumbling block to achieving something like that. So that’s the sort of the idea, sir.
Richard Koci 1:25:25
Okay, for me quite, quite simply, yes, success would be the fact that people would call me to exhibit my work, obviously, museums as well, that I suppose implies the fact that I have or am contributing something. Now, I certainly do not have ambitions. And that is quite true. I don’t have ambitions to be part of his history books. But yes, for my own personal satisfaction, I think success is being part of the art world where you exhibit on a regular basis, but doesn’t mean that I’m going to be looking for exhibitions, but they call me the exhibitions are on the highest level. And therefore, that work generates interest outside and beyond my scope of influence, it has to be absolutely independent from me, my work has to work by itself.
Matthew Dols 1:26:38
Do you? Do you have any sort of words of advice, sage advice for ways to achieve that?
Richard Koci 1:26:45
Well, yes, I have an opinion or an advice. I do believe in judgment in a way or selection, I am not sure that everything now has to be considered art, and it has to be good art. So I would begin there. I know there are different categories and different likes, but it has to have that it has to have the quality good enough. That’s the beginning. And then, as we said before, if you believe in what you do, I would have to advise everyone to muster up the energy or the courage and promoted do something for it to get it out there. Because it’s probably not going to happen by itself. Sure.
Matthew Dols 1:27:38
Remember, art sitting in a studio is is just something you made for yourself, it’s not something that you’re making a career out of, you actually have to put the hustle in and get it out. So
Richard Koci 1:27:50
that’s exactly what it is combine the inner interior, that’s your studio. That’s you where you work with the outer world, get it out there any way you can,
Matthew Dols 1:28:01
which then actually leads to my final question that I asked everybody. Part of the podcast is I try to I put a quantifiable thing. So the idea of this is that I talked to many different people, you know, and get different impressions and perspectives on how the art industry functions. And the hope is that I can learn enough that to understand how the art industry functions that I could get a piece of my artwork exhibited in the Museum of Modern Art, New York. What step would you recommend that I take in order to try to achieve that goal.
Richard Koci 1:28:40
That goal can be achieved only by a long term process, which begins where you begin. And then you can only be fortunate enough to have something inside you, that will make your work interesting for the rest of the world. Otherwise, you’re never end the people who will be instrumental in getting it out there. Otherwise, there’s no other way. There is no other way.
Matthew Dols 1:29:09
Okay, so strong artwork from me. But then I have to get it in front of the right people.
Richard Koci 1:29:16
But this is a long, this is a lifelong process,
Matthew Dols 1:29:19
which is a great thing for people to hear. Because in this day and age of websites, social media and all these things. young artists in particular are thinking that the career path is very much stardom and then maintain stardom throughout your life and age. The arts industry is really primarily and on the whole not really that way. It’s a slow build. I mean, traditionally, like we were growing up your little older than me, but but when we’re growing up, a retrospective at a museum is something that somebody’s earned after it when they’re 70 years 60 or 80. It’s not something that’s people get simply because they Have a lot of followers on Instagram or whatever else kind of social media kind of thing. But it’s it’s a it’s a level of respect that’s earned over a career, a length of a career
Richard Koci 1:30:11
makes sense. The there obviously, are other aspects that influence all this, and one is the way that our society looks upon youth, and the middle age and, and and older age. Unfortunately, certain age categories have a much harder time convincing, let’s say the, the market that they should be part of it, whereas youth has green light just about and I guess it should be that way. And the youth should take advantage of that. Well, I could relat Yeah, I could probably redefine some of that. But this is when I say that it’s a long term process. I think this is something that an artist has to start working on, from the very beginning and only hope that he has the potential to to grow and to make good art because I do believe I still believe that there is good art, and let’s say mediocre art, there’s a difference. Great,
Matthew Dols 1:31:28
thank you very much for your time.
Richard Koci 1:31:29
Thank you.
The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com
All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com