Transcript for Episode 007 – Conceptual Artist, Jan Pfeiffer (Prague, CZ)

Published August 12, 2019

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-conceptual-artist-jan-pfeiffer-prague-cz/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:11
Please pronounce your name correctly for me,

Jan Pfeiffer 0:14
Jan Pfeiffer.

Matthew Dols 0:16
And you’re from Czech Republic, from citizens from Moscow square. When I was born, you were born in one square.

Jan Pfeiffer 0:27
and not really in. But let’s say I was born on the way from south of Bohemia in the car. But in the morning, I was born in Russia, various this place. I don’t know, Bonita, how to say it.

Matthew Dols 0:43
Okay, that was a hospital near there.

Jan Pfeiffer 0:44
Yeah, okay. But my childhood and everything was in the city center lynched. Okay,

Matthew Dols 0:49
so you’re pretty, that’s pretty rare for somebody to be

Jan Pfeiffer 0:51
in these days. Yes. But I was, you know, my childhood is in the 90s. So in the time, it was kind of more normal to live in the city center.

Matthew Dols 1:01
And so your your background, your family? What did your family do? You know, part of what I find interesting about talking to other creative people is, how did they become a creative person? You know, did they come from a family of creative people? Or do they come from a family of the opposite of creative people? And that’s why you became a creative person. So like, what’s the what’s your family’s interest in, in the arts?

Jan Pfeiffer 1:24
So definitely, there is some interpretive background in my family, I guess. So my father is psychologist. So definitely, to be with him in even some provocative moments in hospitals to see how he’s taking care or how he’s trying to come down somebody who’s having very some mental issue, or even the talk in Cambodia, what does it mean to be healthy in the mind of weather? What is healthy means? What does it mean to be a normal actually, and so denied these were very open for new transformation in the security system. And he was one of these leaders who was trying to change the system, close the huge mental health of our hospitals, and open justice, you know, everyday centers, which are not hospital at all, they are just more about talking. So it was also nice thinking about what does it mean to democracy in the real life, also taking care about somebody who needs the help, but if somebody really needs the help, and so on, so this is one side of family this, let’s say, social, taking care, or thinking about the other people. And then my mother’s side is that their fathers and, and fathers of their fathers are actually doctors. So from both sides is this doctors background, but my mother herself is actually painter from Academy of Art. But definitely this combination was very, you know, moving me in the position where I am now because

Matthew Dols 3:13
Sure, I can see that the psychological aspect of sort of investigating and thinking and trying to sort of figure out or assist or work through kind of thing from your father, and then your expressive sort of nature coming from your mother, obviously, they’re interesting. Okay. And so your educational background, you have you went to proper training, were

Jan Pfeiffer 3:36
actually again in the city center. It was just, you know,

Matthew Dols 3:39
do you ever leave leave the city center?

Jan Pfeiffer 3:43
Yeah, it came very soon in my life, but on beginning I was just purely, very looking forward to be in elementary school, but in the first degree, they recognized myself as somebody who needed a need this special help that I’m actually dyslexic. Okay, okay, so I had a first degree as in a regular normal class, and they just shift me to this special class is the visit people with a child when they need this, you know, they have some special needs.

Matthew Dols 4:18
So yeah, my brother is similar. I’m not sure he’s actually dyslexic, but he has a reading difficulty.

Jan Pfeiffer 4:25
Anyway, so that actually changed my life a lot because that special class was super super bad. You know, that you know, teacher was very she was beating me by book and it was not very about the special needs of us but special needs her special needs.

Matthew Dols 4:43
Wow, okay. She was even asking my father for some pills and so on, to come down. So it was very hard to come down. So it was super hard time and I you know, get fed 2020 kilo. I just, you know, protect myself and I was spending the two years it was more than enough for me. And then my family recognized I need some big change in my life. So they remove me or they, they ask if it’s possible to sign me up into Waldorf school. Wow. Yeah. And this other school, it’s kind of, you know, it’s kind of poem over it’s very special area, which definitely for myself helped a lot, I have to tell that distress which I had before the totally disappear, I will just feeling myself that I can really create whatever I would like to do teach even telling me if you would like to create whatever you can do here. So it was very collective experience also in bed and good, you know, sides. But I mean, in a way of Jimmy might make the music make this, you know, own theater play, write the book, all the things happen, and somehow very open myself to myself.

Jan Pfeiffer 6:03
It’s a very self guided learning.

Matthew Dols 6:05
Yeah, yeah,

Jan Pfeiffer 6:06
you’re doing your textbooks, you just writing and doing the illustration even in I don’t know, math, all these, you know, you’re doing yourself you observe what’s happened in the real and then you’re just recording in your textbook. So somehow, it’s very turns the mind to be open for self educate education system, which is never ending, actually. So I can see that very positively. Of course, they so super, so much bad things in that, that you don’t have this number, you don’t get the you know, great. Great. So credits, right. So somehow, it’s super wild. So we didn’t have any, you know, root respect,

Matthew Dols 6:48
yes, I don’t have that structured education that sort of fits with the standardized testing that then sort of leads you on down the standardized testing,

Jan Pfeiffer 6:56
is that he’s definitely a bit changed. I was there for just some dog and I saw that these wild 90s were also while in Waldorf School, a lot of like, this Krishna guys, and I don’t know, from underground, they were all all their fathers and mothers in the in the time and they were super excited that they, they can put the child in somebody is something that he saw, you know, free, and so on. So it was more, more crazy than in these days. It’s more now it’s more how to say link to the structure of classical education says,

Matthew Dols 7:31
Yeah, see, I come from pure straight up public schools in the United States, very standardized, and organized and graded. And all this like, to me, that sounds marvelous. I wish I had that kind of an education. And I know a lot of people who have that kind of education that wish they had my education. So grass is always greener. On the other side,

Jan Pfeiffer 7:51
definitely, it’s kind of balancing, I was actually glad that I was there just for elementary school. So then I just because there was no any possibilities continue. It was the beginning of developer school in Czech Republic, so they don’t have any, you know, high class services. And it and I just, you know, apply myself or I did exams in kind of was private art school. So I was focused myself surprisingly, into classical, you know, modulating can drawing all these like academic skills I did directly. And when I entered the Academy of Fine Arts, it was kind of like a repeating in some way, the first year. So it was four years of preparing to be in our academic in some way. So and that was also a nice experience, it was more classical way to learning more classically, but still openly because it was art school.

Matthew Dols 8:51
Right now here in the Czech Republic and seemingly throughout Europe, I’ve noticed that the nature of sort of who you study under is a very important thing, sort of this lineage in the sort of mentor apprentice relationship sort of track, generation after generation of of like teacher to student kind of relationship. It seems to be very important here. This is not something that is me. It happens in the United States, but it’s nowhere near as important as here. So what do you think of that? Because from my perspective from you, from I pictured as poss, potentially it could be a bad thing. Because if you have a mentor and you work just like your mentor, are you really growing that much? Are you really being that unique and individual if you’re modeling after that mentor when you maybe you want to do something completely different than than a mentor, like so does that mentor apprentice relationship? Does that really work for you? And do you think it works for others,

Jan Pfeiffer 9:46
I definitely understand the teaching process of s is very colorful and complicated system and if I can understand now more from from above. And also I have to tell you that now, also one of my profession is being the actual teacher right now, in your what’s your positioning, my position is actually the teacher of studio classes in UK university, I mean, the Charles University.

Matthew Dols 10:18
You’re a, what’s your rank, I guess? Here’s like docent professors like I’m still, before every single base, also a teaching assistant, I’m

Jan Pfeiffer 10:29
teaching assistant, I’m just finishing my PhD. So after that, I can move it to do these different

Matthew Dols 10:35
way. Okay, let’s take a step back here, you’re getting your PhD and what

Jan Pfeiffer 10:39
I’m getting, I’m just finishing the PhD thesis on topic of black, black, black, black as the phenomenon. Okay, we’ll

Matthew Dols 10:49
come back to that for a bit. But wait, okay, your PhD, though, is in because I finally had to had this conversation with some other people about master’s degrees being terminal degrees in studio arts, whereas PhDs are terminal degrees in art history and other things like this. What’s your is it studio art that you’re getting a PhD in? Or is it a theoretical or conceptual? Like, what’s the what’s the degree defined as,

Jan Pfeiffer 11:16
so this degree is actually running on the cathedra in the project faculty, so it’s actually it’s, it’s, it’s fine art cathedra, which is focusing on the education. So my thesis film will be haffley like self art observing, like arts research, and then there will be the pedagogic part, how I actually only applied my research in the real education system, the using the topic of black, how to teach it, how to talk about it. And then we’ll be the overview of all of this. And also there will be half of se interviews with the artists, which are using the black consciously.

Matthew Dols 12:07
Okay, I want to know more about this black as a thesis. So give us a little a little overview of what you’re what you’re investigating,

Jan Pfeiffer 12:15
I have to tell you that when I was on exchange program in New York in 2010, in Cooper Union somehow great school, great school, I can agree somehow it’s opened my mind to be more closer to even the aesthetic pleasure, because it was also the moment that I move with out from Czech Republic from also my, my, you know, schoolmates. And somehow it made me more open just to do something visual. And maybe it was also these these symbols from the school there. And so I really consciously use black as kind of mysterious moment in each of the works. And I was really thinking, if the black is just the ground on making something more visible, or if the black having some individual aspect, if we can understand the black is something wood is telling something more than just we can understand. Because there is a lot of mystic think, which gave me also linguists, you know, ordinary design and all this stuff. So in these days, I did 10 interviews with the artists, and I can see that they really use the black from all the sites, because it’s very hard to say it’s fenomen, which you can use for all the things it can be either no an artistic color, it can be a color of spirit, it can be color of Christianity, it can be a Muslim color. So it’s very, it’s very, very, very powerful. Let’s say think which we can use it and we can be somehow hided by that. Or maybe just think about the, you know, how do Kubrick use the black monolith in in his movie, you know?

Matthew Dols 14:06
2001 Space Odyssey

Jan Pfeiffer 14:07
Yeah. Space Odyssey. So this is a lot of things which me personally very touching me and I have to tell you that even in my own work, I have to push me back not use it the black all the time.

Matthew Dols 14:22
I mean, I used to use black a lot and I was thought of it is when I use those as an absence of something so so it was the negative I used it in a negative space type of way Exactly. But it was still active because it was active thing saying there’s not something here was an intentional act of negativeness. But I get where you’re going. It’s very interesting. And how long, much longer on your thesis

Jan Pfeiffer 14:45
is just several months but in some way or maybe I will throw and get one more year. There. Yeah, I have to tell you that some somehow. Also to in the combination with normal life, it’s necessary to have more than four years. This is a The the time each already spent as a student as a PhD student, but it’s kind of legal to have one more year.

Matthew Dols 15:08
Sure. So yeah. Okay, so leading on with that. So you say you have a wife? and How many children do you have?

Jan Pfeiffer 15:15
or do some two right?

Matthew Dols 15:17
One is my own and one is actually

Jan Pfeiffer 15:20
my wife, right? from a previous relationship. Yeah, sure. But I mean, so that mean, that’s a that’s an interesting pressure that gets put on artists oftentimes, because as far as my background, like, is my position on it is like, artists are very selfish people. As a general, we’re very selfish, we want our own time, we want our own space, we want to be left alone so that we can do our thing. And the the stress of a family, I mean, even just a relationship, much less children, takes a huge bird puts a huge burden on to an artist, because now, you know, you can’t just sort of walk away from your family and be like, I just need to do my art and leave me alone. It’s all about my passion. I mean, you still have to bring in subsistence you still need to bring in money, you still need to do a lot of things. I mean, how do you balance the need for your creative passion with the obligations of a family? I’m actually 35 in these days.

Matthew Dols 16:17
So what you’re what you’re What, 3035? You’re only 35 years old? Yeah. Darn you. Okay. And even even that you are saying that it’s not, you know, I’m not old. So my I’m 45 I thought I was 46. So just yesterday, my wife told me I was 45. I gave myself an extra year, right. So even though I think that I had enough time to really do so much, you know, traveling and stuff. So I came in some woman that I was totally sure that unready to be actually in the family process. And so maybe if I had to family more earlier, I will be more frustrated by that. When did you all I let’s say three years back. Okay, so you were 3232 when you got married? Yeah. It’s just you just do yours back visually. Yeah. So anyway, it’s kind of recently, but and I think if if we need something, I mean, as a creators, we need some pressure. I really need presh to

Jan Pfeiffer 17:25
deadlines, deadlines work well under deadlines that moments and just, you know, minutes to do create time sink. And even when I was in school, I really had time just to be a student, I was very frustrating by time to really just you have a splint on on a one week to just create something nice, if you have just this, you know, freedom of time, I was very, very stressed. And I just need to, you know, just walk somewhere get lost and to make something to myself, so just be more productive in a way of thinking and to grab a good idea. So in these days, when I’m just working just several meters, I’m just you know, out of the house, I know getting out the garbage or something like that, the ideas coming so I really think that I not actually somehow in some case, I can do whatever I would like to do, but the just way how I might in making the things he needs the kind of logistic I mean, that you really have to prepare several hours to do some some production or to do to do your work. But on the other hand, I think a lot of people decided not to have family and just have a career and but Indian asking they can feel that they something miss it. Yeah, they don’t have the old thing which in my sister decided in some way that he or she will have an artistic career. And in these days, she still don’t have a family. And she’s already 41 and and somehow I can feel this differently. Right right decision, but I can see myself as this I really need this you know, little bit hearted moment of you know, observing growing up to the new life and be with it because a lot of artists during that the best object or sculpture if they made it is that a child actually very nice. Okay, so going back to the point of about the the mentor apprentice thing, like I mean, like, when in my grad school people kept telling me when I wanted to go for my graduate degree that I should find a person I wanted to study with, and study under that person. And that’s the school I should go to, regardless of the quality of the school per se because it’s about that person you study with. I didn’t do that. I’m not gonna I’m not gonna sit here and lie by like, Oh, no, I didn’t do it at all. I ended up going to whatever school accepted me. That’s the one I went to Because I applied to a number of schools and they didn’t accept me, and I really want to go to grad school, so there you go. So and that may be to my detriment though, I went to a very prestigious school. But I didn’t have that mentor apprentice relationship that maybe I think, is something that I’m lacking in my career, maybe it’s something that is great and beneficial. How do you feel about that?

Matthew Dols 20:23
It’s very, it’s kind of so interesting storyline of each of us. I mean, the education process, how we how we are educated, because all the time we have social aspect, I think the teaching or be a tutor is very performative moment that you are somehow yourself, but in front of your students, you become somebody else, even already, in that moment that you are a teacher, you are somebody else. So I believe in some true in it, even if it’s if it’s already kind of stage, the school stage in some way, you’re playing the roles. So and now there is certain possibilities how to do this action, this stage performance, let’s say, so going back to Waldorf school, it was very, very linked to even kind of rhythmical collective, and playing the flute and out of Luton, or just shaking the hands and see your eyes of your teacher. So it was kind of personalized, but in some way, it was a little bit unnatural. It was really linked to this collectiveness and the rhythmical things, which are fine, but in some way, it can be maybe too much, if you can understand that they were really doing something very rhythmically, everyday, seemingly. So you was led to the kind of commune, but without, you know, pushing us to belief in some religion, things, it was just the rhythm of the day. And then I entered to this, you know, private art school. And there was the teacher, which was linked to the communist time, he was, let’s say, kind of successful sculpture in the 70s. But he was not really doing this Russian soldiers, he was doing more this naked woman’s, so he was not really so linked to the ideology of communism, but in some way, he did his job. And he was linked to the, to that moment, to the period of Czech Republic,

Jan Pfeiffer 22:31
there are lots of those sculptures still around on building facades throughout province, tons of, you know, neoclassical, you know, nudes, and specifically female nudes with lots of nudes in general. All around, probably, I mean, I kept being sort of astounded at how often I see who

Matthew Dols 22:48
it’s got a big topic, because it was a lot of there was even the system that when there was something you built, there was some process and one process of building a budget do at some kind of art,

Jan Pfeiffer 23:02
does that still exist

Matthew Dols 23:04
here? Not anymore. It actually is a lot of discussion, if we can, we can bring it back?

Jan Pfeiffer 23:09
Well, I was in the United States, and I ran a public sculpture program. And we tried to create this 1% for the arts kind of a concept in the the place where I was, and they just wouldn’t do it. But I remember always citing European, you know, communities saying like they have this 1% set aside, and it was always 1% of the building construction costs that then had to be turned around, put into it. And yeah, it was a losing fight where I was, but I remember using Europe as an example of of successfully doing this,

Matthew Dols 23:41
there is even a project which is running by agarose, and kind of pretty successful project. And he’s actually searching for the stories behind the sculptures and otters. And so it’s kind of popular because it’s already you know, several, you know, decades past and the things are still some they’re, you know, situated, but a lot of them are somehow damaged or already, you know, destroy like too much. So there is already some new discussion if we can refer them or even if it’s if it’s linked to the, let’s say, communist period, which we don’t really would like to remind a lot but on the other hand, we can respect the some of the works by just the quality and the technical. You know, we have they made it so and he was really in love of modulating creating the matter the shaping, he even lose one of the finger just because of the you know, Clay he was all the time just using the finger as a tool.

Jan Pfeiffer 24:47
He lost a finger. Yeah, just I mean, we rub this finger pretty smooth. Yeah. Okay. Like that’s a lot to lose a finger fingerprint. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah. So I’m kind of

Matthew Dols 24:59
late It enables really this old school teaching just you know, be very serious and you have to be on time and just stand all the moment moment from morning till the end of the day and just modulating, modulating. So all these four years we’ll just have a modulating, modulating, upset, observing, you know, scaling, Biggers smaller, all these classical things, but in some way I enjoyed because it was kind of drill, which I never experienced before because of our school was very open and this was this kind of system of observing and creating two together. So and definitely he was, he was showing me a lot of about the missile back work and tourism work. So all these sculptures which also are linked to the First Republic and the beginning of 20th century. So it was also kind of getting knowledge of what we have in kind of databases in ardfert Ling Lucci Republic, and when I apply myself to find Academy for the first moment, when I read it something consciously, I would like to be a student of fine academic, and I did all my best for it. So it was one year of preparation, I was visiting Jaco blossom, he was actually in the time teaching and he’s he, he was just standing on opposite side, also sculptor, but didn’t he even emigrated from Czech Republic. So he was really in this group called Schmid rover, and he was kind of very, this strange guy who is, you know, two meters high, super powerful guy, he was not really able to be in the regime. So he just, you know, leave the country. And after the revolution, he came back and he was also represent of informal in sculpture field, and he was really tough guy on this biblical high, you know, skinny guy is, you know, beautiful white birch, beer, beer. And he was just, you know, teaching me actually because he was open for meeting me time to time and he was actually preparing me for for exams interesting. And he was just all the time lying down on the bed, you know, in the, in the fine art academy in the in the basement, and he will just, you know, observing me, you know, and telling me these important moments like go to between the hill and draw the trees, just by the you know, grass and

Jan Pfeiffer 27:39
the great luxury of being a professor days, just lay on a sofa and be like, go do this.

Matthew Dols 27:47
So, it was really this classic mode of tap somebody who is like, respectful, charismatic, not really saying so much, but I’m pushing you down to dime in some, but definitely the most mainly about me among my wish and time to spend it ready to create something through this informal because I was really influenced by what he does definitely dislike open structure and rude and stone. So somehow I experienced on myself this 70s and when I enter it, after the holiday sexually, he left and on his place came a new Professor eurosla prana.

Jan Pfeiffer 28:30
And it was I don’t know any of these anyway. And yet it is for several decades younger, and he represent the first our group after the revolution. All right, and it’s it’s much more linked to different way of thinking there is differently is a lot of aesthetic thing, which we can understand as, like private metalogix he’s slightly speed painter and sculptor together. And the Euro group was clearly representing decoding the results of lavi we can translate as hard hats, okay. And David also some holding to the postmodern clothes. So getting back to the classic mediums you will using the bronze and using the you know, the debating, you know, with all the layers, oil painting and so on. And so, in his way of teaching, there was a lot of practicing and a lot of observation and doing the drawing very black, you know, till you will destroy the paper. So it was fairly this hardhat system of doing very strongly whatever you do, and during that visit with a patient or reserve Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say the tarion paper sounds like the passion. Yeah, visceral. Yeah, getting in there and really,

Matthew Dols 29:52
so. I keep that for all my days after that as something what is necessary to keep Going if you already decide to do something, and of course, it can be kind of denture in some way. But you have to do it. Yeah.

Jan Pfeiffer 30:07
Okay, so So in the end, the whole sort of mentor apprentice thing, it’s not the way that I perceived it, which is a sort of like a direct lineage, it’s more of a, you find somebody who has some element that you want to hold on to. And so like you took your, from your mentor this, this passion and this visceral ness. But maybe you don’t do the same subject matter or anything like that. So. So you just find an element that that’s interesting that of what they do. And that’s the thing you then take on to your so then would you will then pass on theoretically, to your next sort of apprentice,

Matthew Dols 30:42
you’re then entering another class, which was running by UCP. holder. And it was even a little more younger generation, he was mainly active in 90s, or he’s still active, but his generation this actually somehow understand as a 90s generation. And it was much more about the compensation, conceptual thinking, also linked to the public space. And so I can delete that. If I’m looking back to my education system, it was kind of logic in that is added, I was meeting the people from each of the periode. And each of each of them has some different story and different needs to tell something. So it was really like this technique. And the other kind of really also the way how you can be artists income scan of system, how you can survive. Now I’m mentioned the secrets to fake work, then it was more how to survive in the independency and not be part of a system. Now I mentioned yonko blosser. And then was the first possibility to be free. It was Joseph Rona. And after that, how to link yourself after the system brokes. And his new system is coming how you understand yourself as artists, then you have so much inspiration from West’s world. And you are not really still understandable for local people. And after that I entered also spinning liberal studio, he was actually a visiting professor, he came from Poland has been equilibria is kind of extremely interesting guy. He’s think a lot about political art. And he was really, really pushed me in to be independent, and just do the thing that you really would like to do, because he was on beginning when I was applying myself to his studio. He was telling me, I don’t care what you do. Whatever you do you do for yourself, I just need you to be here on time, we will do a collective open forum. And we did that for a whole year. And he really doesn’t care at all about what we are actually doing privately as art. And it was the big, big, big sculptural experience.

Jan Pfeiffer 32:58
Okay, so now so now you define yourself as a conceptual artist at this point is that like, what’s what kind of wording verbiage Do you like to use? Because like, people keep asking me like, Oh, are you a photographer? Are you whatever, like everybody loves pigeonholing somebody. So what’s your pigeonhole?

Matthew Dols 33:14
Sure, knows a lot of labels, which you can put it on yourself, I need more labels than one. Definitely, we can start with a conceptual label, because all of them is for me is very important to have some structure in what I’m thinking and when I’m creating, but more and more, I am looking for some open structure, I don’t need it just just so super dry concept, if you can understand,

Jan Pfeiffer 33:42
right, I mean, which is sort of what I’m trying to get out as far as I’m gonna go with this down this direction of like, what do you what do you call yourself, like, conceptual art is tough. Like, I mean, I mean, you know, because there are people that go out and paint landscapes or do portraits, and they’re almost easy in a lot of ways. Don’t get me wrong, I do things like that. So, you know, I’m accusing myself of this, but like, producing conceptual art and then somehow finding a venue for it, whether it’s an institution, a gallery, an alternative space, or somebodies home is very difficult. I mean, that’s a difficult path to go down. Why would you set yourself up for a difficult path like that

Matthew Dols 34:23
maybe of my family background, as we already talking about and that that was needed to more to understand the things and definitely was also the generation which I was in, in my time when I was on in Art Academy. That was a lot of talks about if we need some aesthetic things that we needed more something we can send it will be can sell us say it, not sell it and not sell it actually. Yeah, it was this was Yeah, this this pureness of creation that you are creating the things we scan of Your Spirit your mind a mailing list your mind. And it’s not, you know, it’s even for forbidden to to sell it or to doing something beautifully. That’s what really happened during my education time when I was in New Jersey preorder studio so what was was a lot of a lot of dogs in which we suppose to do to add something what is actually goods? We can sell it? And if we did, we may be we are more responsible for the social aspects and we have to describe what’s going on and do something what is even not so much really deeply oriented, or it’s necessary to even have some art object. Yeah. So there was kind of time period when I was even very deeply in debt. And I was kind of frustrated, I stopped believing in art at all, I was thinking that you know, the people which are having the job, everyday job and doing something good having some sense, I lose a sense in art in some moment. Also, when I was in Armory Show once and I was in sunning myself it was 2009 I was installing my installation there in armory. And I just ask if it’s possible to stay a little bit longer after the closing time before the opening? New York armory, yeah, New York armory. And okay. So, if you are from East you can say. So, I stay in studied. And when I was, you know, done, I just observed the rest of the boots. And there was, you know, all these, you know, Anish Kapoor and Christo installation. And I was just walking, and all these spotlights were turned off. And there was this very creepy bed walls, wooden walls, you know, and I was thinking, Oh, my cat, all these things are just objects, just objects, we know which heavy some mistakes are, there are some scratches, and I was really depressed, I was thinking the art doesn’t exist. And during the night, I really had the nightmare. And when I was coming back, you know, obviously these, you know, label artists. And I saw galleries with the Rolex, I saw spotlights back, you know, on and I saw it, okay, the artists back. So I understood that summer is very important thing is social aspect, how we can, how we understand the art, how are we observing, or that we need some buddy, who is going to say, this is very something, so we need this gloriousness or things, or even this social game in some way. And I was somehow begging myself, I was saying, okay, the artist here. So, of course, the material aspect of the art is, of course, necessary, we need the paper, we need to kind of ask, we need all this stuff. And we need a create a creation, something will be beautiful, but it still be creating, because we need somebody who will also observing, of course, we cannot just do it for ourselves, but this is something else. And once when we are creating something and it’s done, immediately, it’s observed isn’t chargeable, and it’s already it’s some system of if it’s somebody isn’t interested in it or not. So, and thinking about all of this, I was really looking for my own way, how I need to be free in some way. But be still creative. I need because of after the experience in zbynek liberal studio, when he was really don’t know, looking, no, he was not pushing me. Nobody was pushing me even in the being a student, nobody was actually asking me for any piece of art. But in the time, I was really sure that I need to do just as, as I’m briefing, so I need to create something to really more know what I am I will do things, what what are the things around me is about some of these to these kinds of things. Because I I was also thinking to be somebody else. I was thinking about some another, you know, to be doctor or maybe to be also psychiatrist or even I was thinking to be actor. But in the end, I was totally sure that the visual communication is the most strong field which is most closely to me. Okay.

Jan Pfeiffer 39:40
I’m sorry. Yeah, I’m sort of just like, you keep talking about so many things. And I just keep letting you go. Because like you You have this like, way of just sort of like tying together so many different ideas that I’m trying to keep up and continue to have better questions after.

Matthew Dols 39:56
Not sure. Anyway, so just coming back to the conceptual Question. Yeah. So I think when I was also in the Cooper Union, it was kind of very surprising woman that older students, you know, 20 years old, they were so knowledgeable about the conceptual period in us. And so it somehow I was very surprised how they how they also understand the conceptual art as of National Art are not international art. And they are kind of proud of it. Because in European context, or the Eastern European context, it was still something to do with more underground way of creating because in the 70s, and 80s, were, you know, years ago, under all these guys were creating that things, but they were not really visible in that moment.

Jan Pfeiffer 40:41
When I was in school, we I remember German and, and Scandinavian as being deeply conceptual, like, we looked into them as deeply conceptual work back in the United from the United States. I don’t remember I mean, but I was in a new genre arts program in my master’s degree. So it was, it was very conceptual in and of itself. So they were looking, trying to look even more conceptually in some way. But I’ve always found it difficult to like, I come from a background of like object base creation of arts, you know, photographer kind of thing. So like, that’s my sort of background. So like, I’m always wondering like, as a conceptual artists, how do you, how do you do you like, do you do it like Christo? Like, do you make prints or make objects to sell those to be able to fund other projects that are much more conceptual and potentially not going to, like, bring you any financial gain or anything like that, or more theoretically, like, you make an object that you can sell so that you can find a project that will give you more prestige kind of thing? Like so you do your big pieces, your masterpieces, funded by other things? Like, basically, how do you juggle all as far as financial needs and financial obligations due to grants? Do you do residencies? What’s your methodology for financially supporting this?

Matthew Dols 42:01
So definitely, the moment of how to earn the money was all done very present during my study, as

Jan Pfeiffer 42:08
President, everybody’s daily life, shoo, shoo, shoo.

Matthew Dols 42:11
But I was really, I was really not very sure what I can do, you know, for for, like, you know, living money. And very quickly, after the graduating my master, the people just asked me if I can do some, some classes or some workshops about public space, and so on. So very quickly, I start to be independent in their question of money, you know, in a very, like, you know, low, low, low level, but somehow it was the way how I was also changing my conceptual thinking, and transforming to the classes on workshops, and so on. Teaching as a teaching teacher, so, but it was not already on, you know, university, but I started doing kind of with some, you know, in several projects I was just doing as a freelancer of some workshops. So, yeah, it was just nice. And so, and in this case, I was still very free in the way of output I’m creating. So I was not really still pushing myself to do sellable objects. And so and as you saw my works, it’s a lot of like, you know, stage moments that it’s more important, the space how I’m putting this stuff, you know, things together, and also this performative aspects, it’s very important to make the things come out alive or in some situation. But as we already talk, the medium which is still linked to me is the drawing. So this is the physical thing, which is, you know, it’s kind of reminds after the process of even doing the animation you have the droving but of course in the situation in general public, our business it’s not so much possible to sell anything that is not cannabis. So if you don’t have a cannabis then you are ready to get out of business of course you can you know, try to sell a photography even the photography is not billable time at all. So and the drawing is even lower. So and talking about the unknown, the documentary pictures from the performance is even joke. Yeah, but you know, looking

Jan Pfeiffer 44:18
at sad

Matthew Dols 44:19
Yeah, but looking to the Poland, they even have the way how they can sell it D performance, they have just decided that you you buying the performance of some of some artists. Yeah. So do you have an idea? Are you one day or even far, far away? And you know, we can think that it’s possible to sell

Jan Pfeiffer 44:34
something very solid waiter views or just writing instructions,

Matthew Dols 44:39
right instruction or just, you know, do agreement that he in when you agree on some time, the artists will come and do the performance because you are the owner of the performance. Interesting. Yeah. So it’s very kind of philosophical aspect of what we are believing in and what we are able to give money in What if we really looking for something? What is touchable? And what we can hang in our, you know, dining room? Or if we are just supporting something that is just fascinating us, and it’s not even touchable. Yeah. So this is like, you know, thinking very, you know, in the sky, but in my daily practice, I, even for myself, it’s nice to reduce some of the work to have some something which are, let’s say, physically present, but it’s mainly photography and documentary of the action as the photography. And then the drawings and objects are mainly some constructions, mainly some parts, which they need to be, you know, put together, and then then they are quite huge. So they need a space and if they are not really the object for which you can put in your, in your flat. So

Jan Pfeiffer 45:57
what size your flat?

Matthew Dols 45:59
Yeah, it’s Yes, question of the size for sure. But during the days, I can tell you that I feel a pleasure if somebody’s having my work in his private place. Oh, yeah. Because I can feel it, that it’s somehow the new life or the continuation of the work that the because if you and you can know it that very well that if you have something all the day on your eyes, you getting yourself, you’re putting yourself in and back, and there is kind of relationship, which is very attract even attractive, even for a creator, you know, I know that you my work is there and somebody is living with that. So I have to tell you that during my you know, life, I decided that it’s actually great to even give a gift a gift.

Jan Pfeiffer 46:50
often told people like you know, coming to art openings is nice, saying nice exhibition is nice getting a nice review and credit by a critic or anything, it’s all nice. But to me, the most flattering thing that anybody could do is actually put their money where their mouth is and like buy some art and have it in their home, I don’t even care if they tell me or talk to me. But if somebody actually buys it, that means more to me than any other feedback I could get. Because that person was willing to put the you know, spend the money purchase the thing, theoretically, I don’t even know you know, maybe putting their home in some prestigious place, maybe put it in their bathroom, I’m not sure. But they want to live with it. And they want to experience it, they want to have it as part of their their family’s lives from here forward kind of thing. That is the most important thing for me. Like, that’s the thing I want, I want people to want to live with my art to experience it every day to see more and more in it every time they experience it. To me, it’s kind of important to engage with the I’m not gonna say buyer, but they’re like, the public that they should want something. I mean, I’m I come from again, it’s sort of the background of, I still want my art to be beautiful in some way, aesthetically, I mean, it doesn’t necessarily have to be like iconically beautiful or anything like that, but like, aesthetically beautiful. And like, a lot of times I find that conceptual artists, and so I’m not saying you, but conceptual artists oftentimes don’t concern themselves as much about the aesthetics, because they’re so concerned about the concept. And I mean, how does that work out these days? Because like, you know, I’ve seen a lot of art throughout my life that is not pretty even or beautiful or even aesthetically pleasing. But yet they seem to still they seem to do well, it seems to continue to be made. What Why is how does that continue happening? For

Matthew Dols 48:42
a kind of big question, but I think that it’s about the touching, if some work is touching, and it’s again, social thing, if you meet somebody, you like him or not, and somebody is coming to St. Paul’s, and having different, you know, feelings. So it’s the same with art, that you have some B’s and it’s, you know, understand this 1000 perspective. And of course, there is this line of artists hierarchy, that if you already have some name, then the work is somehow understood because of your name, and somebody is already putting your grades on you. So that’s why I’m always I’m using that word is, you know, social game, but I still believe in this pure relationship between the work and the observer. And I think there is one very beautiful sentence by use. By cochlea. He’s also Professor interacademy. He’s saying that the artwork is actually food is food that if you are seeing if you are eating the work, and you have you know, after that you have more food than before

Jan Pfeiffer 49:55
Yeah, Food for the Soul.

Matthew Dols 49:56
Yeah, for the for the soul. So it’s very simple relationship. And this rain ship can be visible. Of course we are in visual field. But I believe also in moment that you can get a lot of no look off of everything just by having the words of devorah. For example, I was very in touch with my sister, also, for instance, because she’s living in New York, and we were just talking about the art. And we were just describing what we saw. And even the description was so you know, feeling me and, for example, After several years, I saw that work physically and I was, you know, so these are pointers. So even just talking about art gave me some are more than the art itself. So this is,

Jan Pfeiffer 50:48
you’re getting the interpretation of it, and then their filter ups or their description. Oh, yeah. It’s like, I hate it when people tell me like, Oh, you should read this book. This book is so great. But it was great for them. Yeah. And, and almost never has anybody ever recommended a book to me that I actually loved 99% of time when I find a book, it’s because I found it through some, like, I find a quote, I get to find an author’s name. And then I find a book, I think, but like, almost always, when somebody says, Oh, you should read this book, you’ll love it. I don’t love it. And a lot of times, I feel the same way about art, like when people tell me Oh, you’re gonna love this. Like, there were some recent exhibitions that I’ve been seeing around town, that people keep telling me like, Oh, you should go see this. It’s so great. And I go see it. I’m like, oh, why did you think it was great? A and B? Why did you think I would think it was great, because it’s completely not my style at all, or nothing of my interest. But yeah, it’s very interesting, that, like, that kind of thing, like relationships between people and the communications and all this kind of stuff. I’m finding more and more, the more people I talk to the art world is all about relationships. So like you currently do you have a gallery that represents you.

Matthew Dols 51:59
Not in these days. I had already Drew, you have I already had, but I have to tell you that even without them. I don’t feel that I do anything else. Yeah, that it was the relationship between me and gallerist were somehow fun, nice. But all the stuff which I’m doing for myself for doing the exhibition, I’m doing still, for my own, I still am doing the same job. So I really don’t get so much some help from datacite if you can understand

Jan Pfeiffer 52:27
I do so the galleries were not adding anything. Yeah, your your

Matthew Dols 52:31
time of the time metric Chile. Yeah, but I still still looking for some good relationship, which will vary, will be close. And I really need somebody who will also think with me, which wasn’t going to be good, a new direction. And in the question of selling gum, still not pushing myself in this way. I’m very open. I’m not having any trouble with that. But it’s still not still my best wishes just to sell, sell, sell. So I, I just would like to tell one thing that I believe that, you know, the history is still kind of repeating, but the history of art is very, I think it’s in some, it’s still progressing, it’s doing still new things, I think. So even the conceptual thing, and also that you don’t have to create our classical way of art you have free. So it’s a gift from past,

Jan Pfeiffer 53:20
oh, we should all be looking to the past, be knowledgeable in the past, be skillful of the past. But then build on it add something to it might run, my professor said something when I was in grad school that I To this day, I quote it all the time, which is every contemporary artists should be adding to the vernacular of the media. I love that idea like that. Like no matter what you’re making, no matter what medium you’re working in, you should be adding to the vernacular. So not just repeating it not just Omar letting it be but actually, you know, like, I think if it is like you, you take all the knowledge you have from the history and the experiences and even contemporary as your peers and then you filter it through your own individual authentic sort of creative mind and create something that stands on the shoulders of those greats that came before you and you give something else to it you build on it. So use the foundation of artistry, but then add something uniquely contemporary to it. Now what that is and how you can find that is one of the those hard things there’s nearly impossible things that we all strive to find. When looking at the your life, you have a beautiful studio here and we’re recording in your studio today. It’s gorgeous. And it’s you know, it’s very spacious, much bigger than mine. But the the thing that I always wonder about is like how do people basically maintain their artistic practice it when those times come when you can’t sell you can’t, for whatever reason you don’t have the money you’re not selling, you’re not getting the grants, you’re not getting the other things that hopefully would give you some sustainable income continuously. Which is what you know, that sense of security is what we all desire, but almost none of us ever have. So what kind of sort of what is commonly called now like a side hustle like what other jobs do you have to do to be able to sustain the the passion and the ability to do your passion?

Matthew Dols 55:19
I already mentioned, this very surprising woman that I was asked to do a workshop and then I do the teaching. So all this another verse just came to me. So I’m very glad for that. And it’s just great that after doing a workshops about the public space and architecture, I was also asked to do stage design for movie by, which was made by a Tomas love and was very, very, very experienced. Just I was just asked to do, you know, big movie studios, and no, no, it was in Ostrava. So we were setting up the real, you know, basis just for the movies, or just small changes, it was not really the building of new, you know, buildings or rents. So

Jan Pfeiffer 56:10
not a set design, but more like a decorating look. Yeah, like

Matthew Dols 56:14
it was kind of set up, we’ll say, and also, the reason why I was asked to do it was because of one artist, and she recommended me and she didn’t the moment they were looking for somebody who is not the film architect, but who is somebody who is who can think conceptually.

Jan Pfeiffer 56:34
So here we are, it all comes back. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 56:36
So and actually, I was working a lot conceptually, because the director was, he took me to the places where he was actually founding the characters, because it was like, based on true stories. So I would just like remaking the real places in opposite side of Czech Republic, very precisely, the frames the picture. So it was very conceptual work of kind of reconstruction, life, places of the characters. And after that, I was doing more and more movies, all the time, they were kind of live documentary. So still, my work was more observing and small changing, which are somehow linked to the story. And now I start to learn myself to work with the empty space, that if you would like to create empty space of somebody who is poor, who doesn’t have enough money to you know, even set up his his flat, if you will just leave the room empty, it will be not empty at all. But if we will put just very badly one frame or just one flower, it became super empty. So and what I’ve loved is the composition to the to the camera, if you standing behind with the cameraman, and with the director, it’s such a beautiful moment that you set up all this things 3d, you know, but then you have to, again, put a just 2d into the frame, and you creating this fake composition, which essentially, is the most important if you just put it a little bit left a little bit, right, it’s very has some meaning even in all frame composition,

Jan Pfeiffer 58:15
we refer to it as cheating for the camera. Yeah, because then in the end, like, you could, you could, you could design a room three dimensionally and it looks stunning. But then when you flatten it out to two dimensions, it doesn’t translate perfectly. And sometimes you have to cheat things, you have to like turn things so that the angles look right, and the depth is correct. And the play the alignment of a subject in the foreground or something in the background is optically correct through the lens of the camera guy

Matthew Dols 58:40
I really love and I can also tell you that I’m doing in my own work, it I really love this moment of creating, like this moment of something, what not what is not real, but it’s somehow alive, the creating of fiction. And I will have to think behind this wooden construction, the lights, and everything was what made the things happened. So several years back, I also had the opportunity to really go to check TV and build it up, you know, the rooms and do all this classical, liberal, you know, stuff of, you know, film architect. So it was also you know, to thinking what will be behind the window, how to do the view, the way in the role the stuffy chartered new normal, but how to making your own natural in the studio studio. So all the things are really still like really, you know, make me very curious and I really love to, you know, try to angle it out. And I never ever study, you know, the

Jan Pfeiffer 59:40
film industry or any film school, but it was just nice that I had the chance to learn during the process. The more I’m listening to what you’re talking about, the more I keep thinking about some previous conversations that I’ve had, you know, in my life, but recently I’ve been having conversations about the group of people that you Surround yourself with your support network, your peers, your friends, your whatever you want to call them. That is incredibly important. And the people that I find that are oftentimes in the creative industries, more successful or more successful is probably a bad word. For more. Well, let’s just go with successful as a simple word for it, but like are more successful are people who simply actually stay somewhere who have a strong foundation, you started here, and probably you’ve generally stayed here in books, or you’ve done some study abroad. And you’ve traveled a little bit here and there, but but your core foundation and your core group of supporters and a network of peers and friends and everything, you’ve stayed pretty much using Prague as a bait home base, and you’ve continued to return to them. And they in turn, have supported you by giving you these opportunities to do these better things. I mean, I’m sure if we went back and asked how did you get that Armory Show, it’s probably a similar story of like some friend that you had that somehow got you that connection to do this. This is something that like a lot of artists don’t think about, I probably and I think I’ve even mentioned this before on the podcast. But I made the mistake of traveling a lot moving a lot continually changing. I lived in Washington, DC, Iowa, San Francisco, North Carolina, Ohio, traveled to Belize and London and the United Arab Emirates. And now I’m in Prague, and I didn’t build that support network. And I think that that is something that artists need to think about when they’re when they’re doing the making the choice, their life choices about where to live, and what to do is that sometimes staying where you are, and continually building these relationships is the most important thing. Or at least substantially more important than it is necessary to move and try something new or different. And maybe I like I’m sort of thinking like, I’m listening to you, you’re 35 years old, and you’ve done very prestigious things, things that I like I haven’t even done it for, and I’m 45 years old. And I’m a little envious, I have to admit like I mean, you’ve you’ve built a great little support network for yourself that I can’t seem to figure out how to do for myself. And I wonder like, you know, do you see that about yourself? Do you? Do you recognize that you have this?

Matthew Dols 1:02:21
Maybe I was not really thinking that is so unusual.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:02:26
Maybe it’s not maybe I’m the odd man out? Maybe I’m weird for having so much. I don’t know.

Matthew Dols 1:02:32
Let me just tell you one beautiful thing I was talking with karate sash. He’s very respect. Who direction? Check the rotation. And he was just telling me one very thing, important thing, which stuck in my mind. And he were just telling me that he was asked to read some article about some pregnant artists, I think, I’m not sure maybe it was added from London. And he decided to himself that he’s not able to wrote it, to do it. Because he don’t understand the all context, the social context of that artists. Yeah,

Jan Pfeiffer 1:03:08
yeah. And I find that same problem, like I’m coming into this market here. And there’s a lot of art that people keep telling me like, Oh, this person is so prestigious, their their work is so this and so that, and I’m just sitting there, like, I don’t see it. But that’s because I don’t understand the context of it. And again, it’s sort of like that nature of like, the longevity of being in a place and knowing that place and its history and its roots in its movements and its intentions. And participating in that being part of that is really an important thing for artists to do.

Matthew Dols 1:03:43
And also believe it to be honest that one of the most important thing I think we could you can get from the integration is your surrounding. It’s the generation that you’re growing up is the people which also decided to be in this field. Oh, yeah.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:03:59
Yeah, the best part of school grad school for me was the the friends you make the peers you make. And I and again, I made the same mistake later. You know, as soon as I finished grad school, I left and went somewhere else. Whereas a number of them stayed where they were and continued their careers in that same city. And they’ve done very well for themselves. It’s just sort of an interesting, interesting issue.

Matthew Dols 1:04:19
I can see you on a story of my sister, the G she actually entered after being in Switzerland to when they entered in the academy in New York, what was the name of it? I forgot anyway, so they already graduated art school in New York. So they already had some social background. But even though they will they this day in in the kind of empty social moment for even 11 years. And after that, I think now the other 15 years, and they have already the social the crown a deacon and have the opportunity now. But there was the moment of being courage and don’t really be frustrated. And, and we already talked about the, you know, atmosphere in the New York is super competitive. So even though I am very proud on them they are doing the art projects together with her husband. So there are actually two on that.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:05:21
So you are living?

Matthew Dols 1:05:22
Yeah, yeah, doing like, Odd Couple Ha. So they even decided to do, like, do project together to be even more compatible and more stronger. And, you know, use all the butter, just, you know, for the assaults. So I was actually observing them for for uses, I was really saying, Wow, they don’t, they don’t have so much opportunity. But they stayed and they created by just, you know, natural way of being, you know, talking and so on. And now they have because they they drink a lot of let’s say ecological projects. So they found a or, you know, the bubble of the people which they will they also interest in that Yeah, and now they are they do residency works, and they funding the money for that. And so on, I even saw solid some of the pieces. So somehow they are in the position where they wish to be, but it’s needed need need to time if you set up yourself to another new place, you have to be patient. Yeah, it see. I

Jan Pfeiffer 1:06:23
mean, it takes you know, 1015 years to really be integrated and and, and a core element of

Matthew Dols 1:06:32
I can’t even saw I observing time to time on Facebook that somebody you know, lose the job are our friends and they are just you know, writing down on Facebook don’t that anybody has some job so I can see the social structure and if somebody asked me if I can offer some job I deeply thinking if I can help so I think this is also I think in the context of Czech Republic or the Prague that I can you can feel some solidarity even in searching for jobs or opportunity how to survive. Yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah, that side hustle though, the than the need for those extra little job here little job there to make a little bit of money making ends meet. And we live in a living in a time of global and local, it’s very, like you know, in a young So, you can live very locally also according the food, you can live very globally, you can have a you know, sushi and Chinese food, you know, Indian food, even if you don’t like to, but they are here,

Jan Pfeiffer 1:07:33
I love sushi, sashimi, and we live in a landlocked country. So that is not local. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:07:40
So, and this is also can tradition you like that, you like the sushi but opposite society, you would like to, you know, eat the food, which are local. So if you can, and this is the thing in the same thing, I think in the art world, so we can really have this all these international Art Gallery hanging on the web, or you can really also make yourself you know, visually, and you can even apply yourself on it. Even all my application video ever made, not by the person or relationship in has exceeded all the time, you will need to know somebody just you know, by face. Yeah,

Jan Pfeiffer 1:08:19
I’ve been saying this for years. What like because I’ve always been I’ve applied for grants here and there and applied for residency is here and there. And they never work. Like if you just blindly apply for these things almost never work. But if you just even have met, like you don’t even have to know them. You don’t have to go for drinks with them, whatever. But if you’ve met somebody, and they can put a face to your to the name on the application, somehow these you have exponentially better chance of getting that grant or residency or whatever it is. It’s it’s difficult because a lot of artists and me and I’m as guilty of this as anybody else. I if I have free time, I want to spend it in the studio. I don’t want to spend it out socializing, like I mean, like art of names and stuff like that. Now I do it. Because I know I’m aware that it’s an aspect of the job that is necessary. But if I had a choice, like if somebody said, Hey, you want to go into your studio and like finish this piece that you’ve been working on for a month, or do you want to go to an art opening. I don’t want to go the studio, like I’d rather you know, again, going back to like we’re all selfish, like, and it’s very hard to give up the time to the time that we devote to making our thing that we’re passionate about to go out and do publicity. And I felt I’m being very hypocritical of this because right now you’re being kind enough to give up your hours of your studio time to basically publicize yourself doing by doing this podcast. So it’s a difficult balance that we have, we were forced to ride like, there are jobs that like they don’t have to do any social, whatever, they just go they show up at 9am. They do their job. They leave They don’t have to be social, they don’t have to anything but the arts in the creative industry. We have to be social like it is it isn’t an obligation, almost of being part of this, again, sort of community instead of relationships that we have to go out and build these communities, we have to know these people have to support these people, like you’re saying on Facebook, like, help them out, when they’re in trouble, they’ll turn around, help us out. And that that’s a very, it feels like it’s a very unique thing in the creative industries, that makes our job, maybe a little bit more fun. But on the other hand, it’s also makes our job almost more of a lifestyle.

Matthew Dols 1:10:40
Yeah, we now enter the first day in our academic, the head of the Academy in the time, he ricotta, Rick was just studying to 100 people in their first day, just three of you will survive.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:10:55
I’ve heard the same quote. When I shut up from my first undergraduate, it was just a college, it wasn’t even an art school, I think I showed my my person said, Look, to your left, look to your right, one of you will be married to the other. Okay. Because that school was like, everybody got married, it was actually and it was true, statistically. It was basically one in three people with a score will marry somebody else from the school before they, you know, after graduation would have and and the moment they said, one of you one out of three of you all will be married now. It’s just like, I’m out. Like, I this is not the school for me. So soon after got kicked out. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, there’s the old statistics about about success that comes with these, they say, like 90% of the people stop making art within five years of graduating from school, have them only, like 1% is going to be a household name. And they are no sorry, 1% is going to be successful enough to like sustain themselves financially, by their art and then have the that only 1% will become like a household name. Yeah. That’s a really daunting odds. Why do we, why do we put up with this? Why do we say like, Oh, you know what this thing, that’s basically a one in a billion chance? Yeah, that’s what I want to do.

Matthew Dols 1:12:25
You know, it’s challenging. And I think the most important thing is to just stay yourself, find yourself in that, not very push yourself in the moment, which you don’t like to do, even in a social woman be just, you know, as you are, and I will love to talk to people, I will love to, you know, to heard the story to be able to be, you know, in some moment of community or be part of community, even if I’m now living with more hide, because of the family, but all of us have to find the way how to be artists, or to do a to create the things that you need, and also to have the practical life and there is so much we have to do it. So you can also you know, and the most important to do in in the set, which will feel that it makes you happy. Yeah, that of course, some other people will love to, you know, chat and do the social context everyday, more than be in studio opposite as you somebody will have to be just hide, and now I know all these stories from you know, all my friends, so each of them having different, you know, very open behavior on how good they are. It is definitely recorded yesterday, correct. But I think the art art space is, you know, broad enough to for all of us, I think. But of course, the frustration and all these things are part of it. Yeah, you’re really not happy with the way how the things happened around you and you thinking how to change it. But it’s the same if you’re an actor, or if you’re a musician, I also have the story from this side of fields. So it’s kind of equal, I think it’s, it’s much it’s important to, if you have some, you know, frustration or bad moments, you have to, you know, find a way how to go out of it and go some things can be changed. This is a beauty of creation, and mainly the creation of making something visual because we don’t have to feel a weight for grants. I’m talking a lot with the directors, the movie directors, and they are so frustrated. They get they can they can shoot it because they’re waiting for money. But we as the you know, a visual artist, we can do the things just by the pencil and we we have the you know, we succeeded we were using I can’t draw, right? I’m horrible drive. No, I’m just talking about the budget, I think which we need to do. Have a job? Actually, yeah,

Jan Pfeiffer 1:15:01
it’s an interesting balance, like, I mean, here in the Czech Republic, I’ve seen a lot more found art working, like There seems to be a lot of creative artwork, it’s made with basically whatever’s available. Versus like, you know, I just came from the United Arab Emirates, where it was the best of the best to the university expensive materials ever. They you know, and working on grand scales, because they have huge studios, and huge exhibition spaces. So, you know, flipping the here, where it literally like, I see a lot of art that’s oftentimes not even using art materials, you know, though, they’ll use their own trash, or they’ll use things that they find on the street, though incorporated into their work. So like, the budget, and the scale of the work is very different here than in a lot of places. And it’s an interesting issue is like, how do you get a bigger budget? Like because we all want to make bigger work, we are physically larger or conceptually larger, we want to make bigger work. So how do you find that budget? Like do you apply for grants do you apply for Do you do residency? Have you ever done a residency

Matthew Dols 1:16:06
I did already do of them. Both of them very, super fruitful, let’s say, when I was in Poland, in Bhutan, nearby, there, Cracow. And it was just searching, strong mode of thinking about the Slavic nation and the collective history and so on. So it was just three months of very deep thinking, can I that’s actually one, one movie with your movie. He’s talking about that. Also, the moment of hearing history, or just you know, if it is heroic, or comic, so and then I, before I was in Palestine, it was really changing my mind a lot in Ramallah. So Palestine, in West banks. And I knew that when I was I’ve been I will come back, I had to go through to Tel Aviv airport. And I was not really stepping myself to Israeli site, I was all the time for three months in the Palestinian best banks. And they were telling me Be careful, they will ask you on your place where you were visiting. And you have to prepare. So I prepared a fake diary. I draw the markets and places via Google. And I was he asked, on the airport, we i was i was just observing, I was just showing the pictures, the fake pictures, and I succeeded. And they just let me you know, go out.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:17:34
So grants, have you done any grants? Yeah, sure. Give me some tricks on grants. Like, I mean, I as well as I’m sure many everybody who’s listening is always like, what’s the trick to writing a successful

Matthew Dols 1:17:47
yet interesting Dave’s even kind of way, not saying so politely that you are a good granting artist, that you are just, you know, getting money from the ground? I have to be honest, I never apply myself for any grants. So again, it was all the time, the time was, you know, involved in some program, or project which already had a grant.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:18:09
So but that’s an interesting thing. We I think we talked about this, at our first meeting you you were engaged with or in business with a gallery, let’s say and the gallery got a grant somehow and then because you were working with that gallery, you were able to then get money from the semi that’s that doesn’t happen very often. That’s a very unique thing to Europe, I think, because I’ve never heard of such things, except for maybe some nonprofit spaces in the United States. But But generally, it’s all planned in the beginning. It’s not it’s not a we got a grant now we just need to give it out. What’s your project, so you were able to get these funds and produce works, right?

Matthew Dols 1:18:50
working like that, that you can have, you know, the National Gallery or city gallery, and they haven’t done the budget and you asked to be, you know, in an exhibition can do when you work a visitor, you can also do new work for free or you can get some money for the production. But this is all done very individual and it’s not one away How It’s Made it. So

Jan Pfeiffer 1:19:13
I’m laughing quietly while you’re saying this because you’re just you’re just sitting here going like oh, you just get money from the city or the municipality or the government. Yeah, that does not happen in other countries. You are very unique. Yeah, it with the amount of financial and, and physical support. Like I know people being able to get studios from the municipality, you had lower rent and things like this, like this is very unique here in Prague. And I’m not sure like a lot of people in Prague don’t seem to realize just how good they have it varies, but I can agree.

Matthew Dols 1:19:48
For example, I had one experience in Chelsea I was part of an exhibition. And in gallery of mixed greens already doesn’t exist and it was four years back and, and in that experience, I was welding I never would like to be in studying here again, because it was just so unpleasant, you know, condition. So if you would like to do, you know, to painting, just go to the, you know, Canal Street and buy the color for your own, we don’t have, you know, I was the professional commercial gallery. And so I never had so bad experience this gallery never ever before, as in New York, so but

Jan Pfeiffer 1:20:28
that galleries don’t exist anymore. So yeah, not have been on the total lot, but

Matthew Dols 1:20:32
I think the time was kind of progressive, you know, it was recommended. And so one, so I’m just talking about not just about money, but also, again, the the personnel is the BPO, which you’re working with. And even if you have the people within just pay very low and low level, they can you know, they can be you know, they can find yourself you know, involved and they can help you so, all my experience is the galleries, the galleries and gallery is just nice, I have to tell you that I really love to work with the employers of the galleries because they can you know, the art is handled guys and of course, sometimes can be you know, difficult but it’s again, just about the social way how you deal with them. And so I can agree it’s kind of special condition which we have here, even the local small galleries somehow getting fresh, you know, curators and they trying to really refresh the system and there was also the talking about the the payment for the artists that before it was just you know, you have to be just happy that you can exhibit but we don’t pay you any any anything. Even you are something wood, wood, wood, wood we are exhibiting but everybody around you is paid, but not you. But there was also kind of, you know, struggle and discussion. And now it’s it started with, you know common that when you are asked to exhibit, you are getting some fee, just because you were spending the time to shape and communicate and so on. It just involved Cumani but even though it’s already happen,

Jan Pfeiffer 1:22:03
though, where ha the the municipal easiest thing to municipality like not having, I mean the galleries, the gallery. So like if I’m to participate in a group exhibition, yeah, then that gallery is going to pay me basically for my let’s go travel time and

Matthew Dols 1:22:21
yeah, for them

Jan Pfeiffer 1:22:22
to bring the piece there. And that’s not that’s irrelevant of whether it sells or not. It’s just basically paying for my time. That is magnificent. One of the things that a lot of artists always complained about is is that people take advantage of us, like all the time they’re Oh, oh, you’re just an artist, you you have time, you can just you just have something laying around your studio, can you bring it to us? Like, you know, why do they think that we just have like the our time can be wasted. It sounds like a magnificent thing that the somebody’s paying for or at least starting to even if it’s a nominal gesture, paying for the amount of time we put are putting into leaving just delivering work.

Matthew Dols 1:23:00
It also depends a lot about the curator that the curator decided also economy, according the budget, that even the small amount is going to be a fee.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:23:10
Oh, it’s just nice to even have the gesture that is it that doesn’t exist very often. I’ve never heard of it before, you’re the first thing to tell me this coming to towards the end of this here. Is there any last little tidbits you want to throw out anything that you feel like you want to talk about while you still have an opportunity here?

Matthew Dols 1:23:28
Well, you know, we’re talking about a lot of things. I just one thing, after the graduating I was maybe a frustrated little bit to do more small exhibitions. And in these days, I’m very grateful when when you have more time and spending more time preparing, and the exhibition can be a little bit bigger in in meaning of idea or even the production and you have already time to prepare something even when you have time just to do the things not just for exhibition. And but I think now after that it’s very feasible from from the to see on the exhibition, it was very long process or, but of course even just fresh, super fast thing can be nice, but I start really have the exhibition as a celebration, I’m really looking forward to have of course, the opening is also somehow socially tiring, but the moment that you can do and prepare the things it’s very small celebration for me so I also wish to have it you know, collectively that each of the exhibition is kind of more celebration of possibilities of freedom of also the you know, communication and so on. So, you know, come down time to time not be so much Hurry up. Don’t have all done SMS and Google and Facebook is in your brain. And just enjoy the moment that you really can share what you thinking about and also what you create.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:25:06
But it also sounds like what you’re also saying is as a as an artist, instead of trying to sort of let we’ll call it like, pad your CV and have lots of exhibitions, that your methodology that sort of the realization you’ve come to for yourself. And basically sort of your recommendation others is, at this point is to have less exhibitions, higher quality, more, elaborate more, whatever you want to put to it, rather than a bunch of smaller exhibitions, you think it’s a better use of your time?

Matthew Dols 1:25:39
This is definitely also the question of, in which time you are in which moment of your career you are. On beginning

Jan Pfeiffer 1:25:47
is it? I mean, really, I mean, wouldn’t even as a young artist, wouldn’t it be more beneficial to have fewer better exhibitions then, mass,

Matthew Dols 1:25:56
it used to be more common that even the possibilities were not so broad to exhibit so much, but it’s already as you mentioned, the art community even in the Millenium times, we had so much nonprofit galleries so it was so much possibilities to do an exhibit, but in in a moment of the institution’s career there is not so much places where do you know how to step it higher or somewhere so it’s not so much Harry anywhere and but on the other hand, definitely it’s nice to exhibit just for friends I’d say but what is also important I believe that we will be making more in progress to make the thing more publicly and also according to PR and so on to put the you know, to work in the contract with the ordinary public and this is what what the institution can do and definitely I can see that on the position important position are no now now more younger people without even thinking about that. So I’m still very positive in this future that the institution is very open where they do think which can be also popular together with more complicated things. And I can believe that for some sugary now they have a trouble as usual, but even though the I can feel some progress in the moment to be open, understandable, and really put the even contemporary art to the public. Okay, which

Jan Pfeiffer 1:27:30
leads me to an interesting question, because you talked about like the younger generation and how things are slightly different now. The Internet social media, has it helped you hurt you? Do you like it? Do you hate it? Do you even participate on I’ve seen you Yeah, we’re friends on Facebook, the friend like so yeah, let’s take like Instagram because that’s the most popular one for visual artists. Do you use it? Do you like it? Has it had any direct benefits? Have you actually like gotten something from it? Because I find you spend tons of time on it I mean, you do it for your own social person or your or your own personal reasons you’re like, that’s pretty but then you also do it for some professional reasons. And sometimes you try to connect but like how often or how much time and energy do you put into social media and how much benefit Do you feel like you’ve received from it? I know Twitter, Facebook, whatever social media you use,

Matthew Dols 1:28:23
I set the mice a website 2010 and it’s still the same design so it’s very simple design is somehow this moment that you have a project and they are somehow alive in this virtual virtual space each is something that is already part of our job let’s say and I’m standard and we say that the people are the artists even thinking that it’s nice to have exhibitions but important is to have a nice pictures but this this will be what will be after

Jan Pfeiffer 1:28:57
which is more important. The actual art or the documentation that goes on Instagram

Matthew Dols 1:29:02
is understandable. But it’s kind of like ninja line and this is not just a coding our you know basis but it’s also our normal life that you observe something and just recording because it will be nice picture and you don’t you’re not in that moment. Really present Yeah. Studies all

Jan Pfeiffer 1:29:21
about that. Yeah showing it like when you when you focus your time and attention on taking pictures of something you don’t actually

Matthew Dols 1:29:28
you’re not really in Yeah. And then you have the experience after from doody, you know pictures in your mobile and on your Facebook or

Jan Pfeiffer 1:29:35
if you even go back and look

Matthew Dols 1:29:37
if you even go back. Sure. So I’m really sensitive in all these mediums and I think that they’ll be good do use them as a tools. It doesn’t matter if you use a tool for clay or for your the brush for your painting. is just you can put it on the table. You will you don’t have the you know brush still stuck on in your hand. The same visa, all these presentation already social media. So, of course, you can have the company which will help you how to promote yourself how to be professional. But on the other, it’s nice that you can do somehow yourself naturally, Dr. Domino associate I use into Instagram. Recently, two years, let’s

Jan Pfeiffer 1:30:21
say, and I’m enjoying the moment that it’s not about the chatting, it’s about what, really the presentation of the work. So you’re keeping it as very professional, very sort of a, almost a portfolio like an ongoing portfolio of what it is that you’re doing. Yeah. Because, yeah, how they, how people are using it is very interesting, cuz like I’m hearing, of course, is going to new trends and like how to do use social media for artists, you know, saying that they want to be more about sort of cult of personality, they want to see the behind the scenes, they want to see the process of making all this kind of stuff instead of just finished product. I don’t know this, and this is my continual question, I asked this to everybody I talked to, like, does social media for all the time, energy and effort and thought and planning and, and, and, you know, hemming and hawing of like, should I put this up, should I not put this update, he doesn’t actually have a benefit

Matthew Dols 1:31:16
for you. I don’t know any concrete story that it’s really super helped me. But on the other hand, there is maybe the thing behind the thing, which I even know that maybe some happened, because because of the social media, but it’s maybe even possible to you know, find it out. But for me, it definitely is good very quickly to see what’s going on, or what is new, and so on. So it’s keeping me updated in some way even though if I can physically be there, in the past was just nice to have one article, you know, printed article to read it what what is news? Now, the printed marry eyes, almost none of them, we have flesh out and some of these papers, yeah. Which is nice to have it you know, printed. But also things can be also are now much more shared, shared or shared in in this virtual space. And it’s just, you know, incredible that you can have Instagram, you know, observe the MoMA, Guggenheim, and together with local small galleries, and you can, you know, very quickly see all this, you know, big small things all together. And then you have some, you know, some visual knowledge, which is no, no, never ever, I think happened before he was

Jan Pfeiffer 1:32:39
open to me. Is it too much, though? Like I said things like, are we seeing too much, because, you know, back in the days, when I was young, I’m 45 years old. So whatever you want to call that European art was exotic, like we and he got imported into the United States. And we really knew very little about it, that we only knew whatever was prestigious enough to somehow have been brought over all the way over the United States. Now, I can find out about art everywhere in the world by just typing in some keywords, mash tag, whatever, like are we seeing too much

Matthew Dols 1:33:13
depends, it’s about your taste, how much you you would like to eat it. But going back to 2009, I was fairly fascinated by one block. One by one blog called v work was it on geo cities is German blog running by one artists and to creators and ever putting every month one exhibition. And they were just finding new work presented in artists that page and they were just putting them by logic of color or some topic. And it was really the work for over the world, just making them very recently, two years, one years old, it was just very, extremely strong experience to just see what the things thinking about and how they are created. Are they making the ideas physically, and ever so much links, you’re the circles made out of the you know, shopping baskets, or the I don’t know, the, again, the black objects, so, so much things which you ever make, even almost in some The same year, with the same title, but made by the artists from opposite side of the world. So I start to believe in some kind of connection, even have the connection. But of course now it’s even hard to say you did it something because you saw it. No, I didn’t. How you can declare, yeah, so of course before several years, it was the moment that you just hide yourself somewhere in the mountains and you start to create whatever, and you just, you know, show it to the world now it’s kind of moved that you have to already promote yourself during the process. You don’t have any privacy. If you don’t if you don’t stop it. Yeah, so It’s really about your control. It’s the same with mobiles and everything, if you will, you know, pick up the mobile from your pocket, or if you will leave it till the evening or do the exact moment when you decided that you will respond on SMS or whatever. So, this is the new aspect, I think, which is now on us the decisions, the art world is full of decisions, if I will use this or that, and the result is just a combination of all decisions is also human life. But I think in the in the art world, in our PCs, it’s even much more visible, is physically visible, did you use this paper or that paper, and it’s same visa numerious if you feel yourself nice, still activate your image, your social image in social media, virtually, you can do it, but there is still a moment of lose yourself be too much, you know, you know, public and, of course, in these days, being hardest is also to make yourself public make your face public. And so so much things.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:36:10
podcasts.

Matthew Dols 1:36:11
Yeah, and, and also these. And, again, I think he’s again, with the tools. Sometimes you handle it more, sometimes you just lose it. There’s there’s the life, and it’s kind of surfing on the possibilities. And the freedom is hard. And even you can use it something and you don’t use believe that you have a control, but the control is already under the you. I mean, all these, you know, question of who is controlling whom and so on. I mean, the what is public and what is private? How much think you can put on? But yeah, this is this is the part, this is part of.

Jan Pfeiffer 1:36:55
Alright, just to wrap up with my last question that I asked everybody, what kind of advice would you give to artists to try to try and make their lives have that stability and the sustainability over the length of their career? We’ll call it financially like successfully, like, how do you have any personal advice from experiences, failures, successes that you can give to how to give them that sense of security over the longevity of a career

Matthew Dols 1:37:24
definitely is good to find somebody who you whom you trust, it’s good to do work with the people, which can really support you, and you can support them so that the relationship is some some of equal

Jan Pfeiffer 1:37:38
relationships that keep coming up.

Matthew Dols 1:37:40
Yeah. And after that, if you did, I’m feeling alone, that you have yondu, the self yours, you know, the career, somehow you’re losing it or you don’t know how to how to continue, then it’s good just to see the possibilities, maybe change the system. Also, yeah, as I mentioned, the Traveling is very like, you know, kind of fresh air. But in myself, I’m traveling just for to coming back. And if you are coming back, then you have maybe new new ideas how to change the things. So good relationship, even in in the progress of career. If you are very losing the ideas, Jonathan, change the position. No, I

Jan Pfeiffer 1:38:25
get it completely. Yeah. My quantifiable question that I asked everybody is one of the goals of the podcast is that I’m going to take the advice of everybody that I talked to about trying to have a piece of my artwork exhibited in the Museum of Modern Art in New York, what advice would you give me to do and understand whatever advice you give me, I will do it.

Matthew Dols 1:38:48
All right. So you can make a sumps condo?

Jan Pfeiffer 1:38:53
You’re not the first verses to say that. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:38:58
so of course, there is several strategies, which are even to learn the strategy of shock. There’s strategy of book art, to make something that is common, and those strategy of story that you are creating your own story. And I think these three strategies can be some combination, right? And it’s just, and then it’s the way the social way how we will realized. So of course, if you already have this wish to be somewhere, which is the iconic place,

Jan Pfeiffer 1:39:32
I’m just using museum modern art as my personal sort of Yeah. I mean, it could be Tate Modern, it could be you know, whatever, Bilbao or whatever, you know, it’s just my representation of iconic large institution that is desirable for most artists to be in kind of thing. So you can

Matthew Dols 1:39:50
see I think you can, you know, do it from, from down or from top. So the top is when you make yourself visible in some way. What Ever you will do just, you know, immediately via media, or you are just slipping step by step from the social pyramid to the top and believing that you will somehow find the right person. So, but I also believe on chance that the things are coming on right place on right moment. And if you already have this wish, and we really work on that, even mentally, the gates are opening. Yeah. But of course, it still I think everything somehow I still believe in some justice. Of course, we were talking that the Justice doesn’t exist. But in some small details, I believe in justice. So I think if you really, truly will wish to do this, it will help you just this fish. Of course, this is a mix of practical things, also this mental mental power. Okay, keep going. Well, thank

Jan Pfeiffer 1:40:54
you very much.

Matthew Dols 1:40:56
I’m really looking forward to see your exhibition. There

Jan Pfeiffer 1:40:59
I am, I’m starting small with just a piece I don’t need a whole exhibition, just one piece is enough for I’m considering it, because the idea is, is that through all the things that listeners might learn through this podcast, or all the things that I’m learning through the interactions of meeting all these great new people through this experience of this podcast, that I learned enough to learn how the art world works in order to be able to achieve my goal. And so the idea is that hopefully through the transitive property, people listening would also be able to sort of find their their little little tidbits of knowledge from all the different people that I talked to, in order to find their path through the arts world. This is brilliant idea. So keep going and I’m also looking forward to hearing more

Matthew Dols 1:41:45
media. Well, thank you very much for your time.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com