Transcript for Episode 005 – Ceramicist + Professor, Milan Pekar (Prague, CZ)
Published August 5, 2019
Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-ceramicist-and-professor-milan-pekar-prague-cz/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Matthew Dols 0:12
Welcome to the wise fool. I’m Matthew Dols your host today My guest is Milan Prakash ceramah. System professor in Prague Czech Republic. In our discussion we touched on finding your market art criticism and critics. Passion and social media
pronounce your name correctly for me
Milan Pekar 0:42
Oh Milan because because oh my gosh, okay.
Matthew Dols 0:47
Milan,
Milan Pekar 0:48
Milan. No Melissa pronounced Milan.
Matthew Dols 0:52
Fabulous. All right. So give me a little story about your background. Where are you from? What’s your what’s your childhood? Like? Where you know, where were you raised? Sure.
Milan Pekar 1:02
Okay, I’m from Prague. I was born in Prague. And I don’t know what childhood was spent a childhood in a practice
Matthew Dols 1:11
well your parents so what are your parents do what was their professions?
Milan Pekar 1:15
Oh no there’s no he just because there’s no artist in a henna family no that’s a my my father he’s retired now but he was do lots of different he did a lot of different job like office jobs and all kinds of was terrible in 1930 he was in so many jobs and my mother my mother basically office job too but she was she was very childlike because tantrums three child she was with a child for for some time and she’s now to Office of his work.
Matthew Dols 1:45
Yeah, so where did you get your your sort of creative ideas and inspiration from
Milan Pekar 1:50
I started with a ceramic like almost like child or not almost like child I think I was joking I’m like typical product of check like education of art education. Because first I go to ended up when I was maybe eight or 10 this is like ceramic children clap Really? Oh yeah. These days of 1 million in Iceland and then not far from here and like old whatever. It was used to be voted dominant like in like Greenland, Iceland and it was just like we can join all different clubs for children. I think this is even product from like communist time almost when they have this kind of like clubs for the children.
Matthew Dols 2:26
A club for children. Okay,
Milan Pekar 2:28
we do different things you can do like petting animals, or eating to ceramic you can do like small iPhoto just always I don’t know if this since invest in Europe to say more.
Matthew Dols 2:40
I don’t know I’m an American. I only know what I know.
Milan Pekar 2:44
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Dols 2:45
That’s part of the nature of this podcast is that I there’s a lot I don’t know about the world. All right. So so then you went to school for ceramics
Milan Pekar 2:54
Yeah. And I go to secondary school which is I would you say high school I think in in English and disable sitting Moravia because there was only in a time there was only like to the ceramic school van in South Tucson and wherever. And you can study ceramic like like you have normal subject on the high school and plus you have a subject you want to study visit which was the ceramic but this high school to have all basically saying like University they have graphic design design. Tables, even the stone like stone masons training course everything. And you studied this for like 15 to 1819
Matthew Dols 3:34
Yeah, that’d be high school equivalent of high school. And then now and now you’re out of university. So you went through the university? Yeah.
Milan Pekar 3:42
And everything. Yeah, I go through university in Prague to improve same I’m teaching I was
Matthew Dols 3:48
teaching it on prom, which is where you also attended. Yeah.
Milan Pekar 3:50
And I I started from 2000 to 2006 at nicing teaching from 2011 or 12 I don’t know
Matthew Dols 4:02
exactly how much do you do? Do you love teaching is teaching a passion for you? Or was teaching? I just need a good sustainable income kind of thing?
Milan Pekar 4:10
No, I like to teaching you love to check Yeah, that’s
Matthew Dols 4:14
good.
Milan Pekar 4:14
I will not do it for money. It’s not even it’s not just about faith in church to do it for him I don’t think anybody do he really for money.
Matthew Dols 4:23
Yeah, it’s very low pay here versus other places in the
Milan Pekar 4:26
world for sure. It’s not as bad it’s not it’s not something it’s not something you will you will only do it for the money you need to you need to like it to do because it’s interesting to get a lot of like it’s gonna be something almost like kind of like you feel like you’re in some kind of challenge. Because there’s always news to them. They like a challenge you they want to do something different better. Oh, yeah. I
Matthew Dols 4:52
love like people kept asking me to teach like higher level classes and I actually liked the introduction level classes because the students They don’t know enough to know what they can’t do yet. And so they come up with the most creative things. And you know what, because like, once they get into the, the the medium, they start saying, Oh, you can’t do this, you can’t do that. You shouldn’t do this. And they sort of fit into these sort of standardized ideas. But But before that, when they first get introduced to a medium, they’re they’re super creative.
Milan Pekar 5:22
Yeah, yeah, it’s so it’s definitely it’s definitely interesting. What I was surprised to, I was thinking maybe after five years or something, you will get bored, it will get like say, then it will. But I must say it’s actually longer like I can now I get less annoyed with them or something too, because like you get always saying like some lazy student or student they like don’t one, they want to do something different. And if you start to know how to you start to know how to deal with it, and I think it’s kind of like a better I think you need to break to it’s gonna be it’s gonna be too much.
Matthew Dols 5:59
Oh, yeah, summer breaks are fabulous. One of the best parts of being a teacher. So okay, so switching over to your work yourself. So you do your own work, you have your own studio, and you produce now we had a discussion before so we’ll sort of do it again, by the nature of sort of industrial ceramics versus sort of maybe Fine Art ceramics I’m not sure what the I’m not a ceramicist helped me out
Milan Pekar 6:23
I have my own studio in Prague little little little little bit of center because rentegration
Matthew Dols 6:29
as every big city has
Milan Pekar 6:31
seen the same everywhere and what I do I do a lot of it I do a lot of a report so in whichever even tradition in like Czech tradition in this hotel room but we try to now change a little bit to get to different material and I work a lot over the winter glazes I do a lot of experiment with the different
Matthew Dols 6:52
yeah so those like Starburst he kind of like crystal Iam
Milan Pekar 6:56
kind of like basically involves a lot of chemistry and testing about Yeah, I do different stuff but this is mine like I made occupation
Matthew Dols 7:08
the the nature of like when it comes to ceramics in particular because again keep in mind like dreamy like I’m an idiot because to a certain extent when it comes to ceramics I kind of am or at least the production of soda your side so there’s there’s sort of industrial ceramics or like utilitarian ceramics things that are used versus sort of objects sort of sculptural pieces one of the kinds that are not used and like not food safe not dishwasher safe that Yeah, so they mean so where do you fall into that and how to how does that work? Like what’s the difference and and what does it mean for you like do is it are you would you be like higher Lee higher respected if you did sculptural work then if you did industrial utilitarian work or what’s the more respected avenue of this
Milan Pekar 8:01
i didn’t i never single digit able to mow respective and you because you can be but I think it’s really hard to be on the one in at least in a check you can be an industrial designer for ceramic but this will be really narrow specialized for only a few factory remain here and this few factor add the don’t the done employee designer very often and of course you can do you can do kind of affiliate design yourself. You can like produce like pottery or boats or blades yourself too but like I think even what I see most people do boss and I do boss too. I will not know because I’m using for bosses which I don’t know boss like i don’t i mean like sort of my English.
Matthew Dols 8:47
Clarifying
Milan Pekar 8:48
Yeah. I mean like you don’t need to do on the vine you can be you can do kind of design functional design ceramic and you can do more like sculptural pieces to or it can cover it can be it’s it’s some it’s very shady area between
Matthew Dols 9:03
and that’s what I’m wondering is basically like do do you have to be one or the other or do you have to be both?
Milan Pekar 9:10
What I say if you want to be this is just a funny video we did speak about. If you you can do both no problem. But once you do kind of more design. You are a little bit cut from the like free art they don’t either. Yes. And they don’t like this if you want to do this, it’s kind of they will look to you You’re like kind of designer and and everything else is after look like design but very often like designer here too. They do like they go to the they do they making objects they making. They making code we say kind of like there’s a time for it. I don’t like it very much. They say our design, arts design design, but I don’t I don’t like this term and I don’t think this needs to you need to do this. I like I’ve worked with this material. They bought most of it a ceramic and this I enjoyed to do. And if I, even what I do, what I’m making vows is somebody thinks the more like object and using them like object, they will never like put a flower or anything they really think object and other people are just really using them. And you can you can say it’s just functional keramik, which is it, but you can use it both vai it’s about how you treat it, even for some installation, I do some installation with them, which is you will think this is more like, there’s no different because I have some bigger pieces too. It’s not really different from the installation of the objects. I like I didn’t I don’t see, I don’t really see the boundary between currencies can be used, used to both very I use sort of industrial method and my how I’m making I’m casting them anymore exactly the same how they will count them in a factory.
Matthew Dols 10:51
Okay, that’s interesting. So there’s a certain amount of industrial element to your work in that you use a mold. So there’s a certain shape and form that’s consistent so well. So then what becomes the more of the unique properties are the glazing,
Milan Pekar 11:06
glazes and how you actually work with it to is even if you exhibited it’s about how we install it You
Matthew Dols 11:13
okay, and that’s my that’s what’s sort of interesting about ceramics because like you ride that fine line of like, a beautiful ceramics can be used everyday in somebody’s home and a beautiful ceramics could be put on a pedestal in a museum. It could be the exact same ceramic and I mean, look at all the design museums around the world and all the good the amazing, you know, design work throughout history that are now iconic things of a period or a style. I’m so mean, what’s the little delineating thing that changes something from a utilitarian thing to an art piece?
Milan Pekar 11:45
I think this is really how we will look at it it can be it can be really boss like for example if I put my my boss to the like design store, the definite everybody said design, but I had like recently an exhibition which was together with like another artists and mostly painters and stuff. And it was almost like team was like inspired by Japan or like Asian in this slike. In this I don’t know combination with the fine art with the contemporary like, painter, it’s an looked at a different, right does I don’t like I I just thinking about like in, in an object basically use device like the canvas. For example. I do like the my my other things I’m working on is I like our object we changed by by furniture. And this is really hand building objects. I’m making them from kind of simple pipe join them. But like it, but still it’s look like to have a table or leather chair. And this is really object but some people still like using them to sit on it.
Matthew Dols 12:51
But within that realm so like let’s say you design a piece that you put you you did let’s say you design like an addition of five, let’s say that are very, very similar let’s and like four of them you put in designs, or one of them you put into some sort of Fine Arts setting. Are the prices different? No, no, same same price. So it doesn’t matter whether it’s bought as a fine art piece of models, utilitarian, the same price.
Milan Pekar 13:12
Interesting. Okay. It would be strange to get different.
Matthew Dols 13:17
The art world is very strange sometimes. Yeah.
Milan Pekar 13:19
But this actually, I think this is important to control your your prices.
Matthew Dols 13:26
So when it comes to making your work, do you feel it’s important to be consistent? So do you have sort of an authorship are a style or look, a technique that you need to sort of slowly build and slowly change? Or is it important for you to sort of push the bounds and maybe sort of jump ideas and change dramatically?
Milan Pekar 13:51
I think kind of building your career, I will say it’s important to be kind of constant and building it slowly. But I don’t do it myself. I know it and I don’t do it because I can see when I do something I really like it I do something different. But I can see is not ketchup the same. Like same fast people not so interested. Right. So it’s it’s the
Matthew Dols 14:11
advice you give students but it’s not the advice. You know,
Milan Pekar 14:14
this advice from students either because in the venue I’ve seen venue study very reputed to try a lot of different things. Even they don’t like maybe don’t feel comfortable in it, we really push them to try to design try some if they move into design, trying some like kind of more sculptural pieces. Like if somebody read every single one to cast it, like in a mall, because when we were given more plaster is very technical things. We try to push them out of this. And I can even see it’s a good things because sometimes after school, they just come to some of the project, maybe two, three years back, they come to it and they’d started developing days because I didn’t I didn’t think if you are here like if you study master and before you start a bachelor, or you’re six years, some people seven and just doing fun things you have all life for it. And you sometimes get bored to doing one things because people want to buy this things and you will have enough of this in your career.
Matthew Dols 15:03
Well, that’s sort of the question is is like, you know, I often hear and even get I, you know, I probably tell people to do this too is like try and find an authorship time find a sort of a visual of what we call like a visual voice or thing that’s a signature sort of style and, and you can grow from that but like you still have to sort of it like you have to be working on a sort of a straight path of a career. So like A to B to C to D kind of you can see how their career go so jumping around isn’t you know, trying a brand new thing just because you found it all of a sudden it’s like oh my god, this is so cool, which happens all the time we all find new like techniques and we’re like oh my god that’s so great. And you want to do like a whole set of work about it. But you kind of can’t Can you can you just jump around ideas?
Milan Pekar 15:55
I think you can it’s up to it’s actually really up to you if you go like the straight path is the safer and probably life financially the better because you kind of know you’ll find something which you can you can sell or you can exhibit well and it’s a I’m always surprised how long you can go actually events okay you developing it too slowly by i think it’s it’s really depend of I don’t think this is kind of advice I will I will give anybody because I think it’s like actually you can jump in we can find something and maybe it’s I sometimes do like small project I know I will not even exhibited I kind of know from beginning but I just want to try it and what can be interesting this can help you even video straight line to develop something next to because you just try something some it can be it can be style or it can be definitely it gets can be really something very technical. I can myself in time some new glaze or jointed glaze did something something different so you don’t see it like you didn’t see a now or two years it can be even 10 years to come back to something and say oh this was actually I was doing this and this was very interesting. And what is in ceramics very important I will say the same in glass it’s very technical. Okay You can you can do without much technique to but it’s it is and you build in this scale you’re building the scale with which this is really you can really price it with the money you lost a lot of time on it you lost you lost like a lot of money material and everything can maybe nothing out of it. I have so many like side project and I even didn’t even tell anybody I’m doing it but it can help you in the future and just make it keep you kind of sane to to do don’t do same same things.
Matthew Dols 17:37
Yeah repetition is difficult Yes. But I mean along that line like how many failures Do you have to brace you have how many successes
Milan Pekar 17:47
oh I’m really high rate of failure
Matthew Dols 17:49
Really? high rate of failure yeah but like but not in that but your
Milan Pekar 17:54
i don’t i don’t mean like failure to do but like a lot of different lot of different stuff of different project a lot of a lot of goes wrong and I something think like oh this can be this can be really good and I was developing some maybe new technique or like even even with this like crystal glass I was trying to just do many glasses something and it’s like testing in veneer and nothing Nothing happened or even you thinking you have a good good product it’s so good everybody like it but nobody nobody buying it because it’s too expensive.
Matthew Dols 18:23
Right? Yeah sure. There is that balance of like you can’t be working with platinum and like these amazingly expensive materials or else you’re priced yourself out of the market basically so I mean
Milan Pekar 18:34
I know it’s good you know it’s like very like good craftsmanship is good every say but you just don’t didn’t manage to get like anybody excited. How do you find that price
Matthew Dols 18:45
point that’s sort of the right price point that’s not pricing you out of your current clients or me even if you’re starting off so like any clients like how do you find that right price point it’s not too high to turn people off. But high enough that it doesn’t make it so your poor
Milan Pekar 19:03
looks like you can always look around. Ask to see what if you’re really starting is good too. I always say come to how much is your volken eight but if you can raise and you can also develop when you come to the price nobody will nobody will pay ever if you can’t like all like developing of your technical something this is not possible.
Matthew Dols 19:23
Yeah like if I added up all my years of school and all the failures I go from school to put it in saying like oh I spent eight years of training for this first piece that I’m selling so I need to be paid back for all of that. You’ll never have
Milan Pekar 19:38
a baseline if you if there is a there is a price and market even I think this is even in free art and everything if you starting here are not like you can come to your name in it like they do like kind of famous. If you look at the is a prime I find the pricing it’s since if you look ceramic glass or something there’s a kind of almost another not say standard price, but You can look into is a kind of price you can you can get some gun guideline in budgets in view of God this is exactly if you make some like functional pieces the price is not so not so not so not so high because it’s kind of you can compare it between you know if you do a few ceramic vases and it’s not it’s kind of small and you’re not like big name it’s kind of similar price for everywhere and also
Matthew Dols 20:28
everywhere or is because I’ve noticed that there’s also a price differences regionally like the price of things in Prague would be different than the price of something very similar in Berlin or Paris or London you think the same price
Milan Pekar 20:42
I think it’s exactly the same it’s not a big difference Okay, I had like what do you need to look like sometimes more like they put more percentage and you agree with this is like happened we like the the fight day sinking taken some more and they put much more on it?
Matthew Dols 21:00
Well slow down tell the story elaborate on this set. No,
Milan Pekar 21:04
no, no, I I did it’s it just happened my day. I find out later the data I really I had some setup, but the recommended selling price. And they just sell it much more to just try to sell
Matthew Dols 21:17
them today. But did they do it successfully? Did they actually sell at that higher price?
Milan Pekar 21:22
I didn’t know I didn’t know what they was advertiser denied, told me it and put it back. But I think this is not only to happen, it’s happened it’s happened like before but I think it’s happening less now. Because now it’s even a little bit smaller and you find out these things and it’s it seems
Matthew Dols 21:38
like the internet in some ways is actually made it easier to sort of track and keep tabs on exactly people selling your works because
Milan Pekar 21:45
exactly what the water prices and some assumption they want to have it on like Internet to sale and after you just look at the name of our does have a look and you say wow, this
Matthew Dols 21:58
can you sell my work for so much more than they sell it over here in this other
Milan Pekar 22:01
country? Sure. Yeah. But I don’t think there is regionally like, big difference to maybe sell but I’m still surprised his cell survival in a brand. Like because I’m like I think even people people come here they want to buy something from local artists still sell like compared to other cities still. So better, better in a in a prac. Right. I think this is really this is really run by like tourism is even because there’s a lot of high class clientele coming here. Not only like low kind of locals tourists coming for cheap holiday bra, right?
Matthew Dols 22:37
So you’re based in Prague, and you sell where you represent it. Where can people find your work
Milan Pekar 22:44
right now? And mostly, like, few like, what do you ever say design store?
Matthew Dols 22:50
But where? I mean,
Milan Pekar 22:52
literally the days are like, the life store. These very small store they do well, and I liked them. It’s a narrative of street
Matthew Dols 22:59
wear, you know, I mean, like Prague what other cities? No, no, yeah, no, outside of Prague. Where else can people find Oh, I
Milan Pekar 23:06
had? I had to go eddystone like some metal Freebase. Sometimes I have some sometime. No, it’s in London. Paris, I didn’t get one and Amsterdam, is now in Milan. An extra good 200 I find a good good store in Tokyo, two, in Tokyo, Tokyo.
Matthew Dols 23:27
I mean, these are amazing places to be exhibiting and selling your work. So these are things personally, I would be playing up like, I’m in London and Paris.
Milan Pekar 23:37
But it’s like you need to steal you need to sell it. It’s more about the What is it? It’s more it’s like more really like oh, like they don’t like to sell some size and time. But it’s more like design store. The but they do very often, like they do very often they try to be like an art art kind of sites to but they’re still keeping it like it’s more like every it’s kind of like more for interior decoration. And this is not really free art. It’s not really free Art Gallery.
Matthew Dols 24:04
Well, that’s, that’s an interesting balance Do you like being referred to in the terms of like, as decor? Like, how do you feel if somebody said, Oh, I love your work. I’m an interior decorator, I use it all the time. versus somebody who said, I love your work. I have it on a mantel. I use it so that like people referring to your work as decorative work like does that? Do you feel good about that? Or no, I’m
Milan Pekar 24:32
okay with different definitely the decreased tagline is that the creative work fine is fine and had like different pieces. And there’s even widget I tried to find it like maybe maybe a little different market for it too, because I can have less less like decorative.
Matthew Dols 24:48
Recently you had the opportunity to sort of think about a transition in your career where you might go in one direction and that could have been either as you even said to let go A major change and dramatic you could have made you very well respected maybe a lot of money but it also could have been a dramatic failure but the point is that you could have chosen to to sort of go in a direction that you believe would be the most beneficial by the perception of the industry kind of thing like make more make more you make
Milan Pekar 25:26
no I think I think I know I know what you mean but I don’t I don’t feel like it’s but I didn’t want to really I didn’t want to like motor hustle video production but I’m still I’m still on h2 because now I had to produce all of myself and I spent a lot of time I spending a lot of mine time basically with kind of basic production you know making it but what what I didn’t want to and I was even bored if I will somebody will making it I really need to train for some long time you are not like you can train somebody he can just he can just like say okay I don’t like it anymore I I will do myself but I do I not worry about somebody stealing the stealing the stealing the knowledge or something
Matthew Dols 26:09
Is that a thing in the ceramics industry that people study under people and then steal their ideas?
Milan Pekar 26:14
I don’t think so we don’t like hide like even here we don’t have you don’t hide anything here and I know glass like got this versus we used to be more secret life in ceramic basically you can anything you can just find on you can have a look on the internet a lot of people running like you do have to make a distributor produce a book even to be like try to produce book is not aborted. I think a lot of even the crystal release I made it’s a technique which is known for 100 years but you really need to kind of master it and it’s take time effort a lot of people just try my 510 times they didn’t get their lessons they like it and move to something else is really something you need to spend even now I’m like I get new killin and I’ve suffered for one month I can’t get anything out of it because it’s so sensitive and I need to find out how it’s firing and basically feeling being with the broken pieces and and this is even the reason I don’t want to turn it like there is a few reason I don’t want to turn it back because like this Now I have like few gallery I like I’ve always I’m okay I don’t need to write anybody like to promote myself and is working to make me Make me a living if I don’t tend to this I will need to find out other medicine vegetable do PR to basically sell all the stuff you produce more you divide your shop down to because you were producing more we will need to be maybe made to more
Matthew Dols 27:39
what is the price point for your works on average? Let’s say if this
Milan Pekar 27:44
had like small pieces, which is like kind of small you can take it or not and not expensive in any means. Okay, a bit more like more than was from IKEA but like actually if you want to have an Ikea Yeah, it’s it’s not it’s not I think it was will be a little enterprise for the small 160 euro or something for like small bars and you had vast I made I sign it. And each it’s just a different price to if you want to start click something you like
Matthew Dols 28:20
you like some so every one of your pieces is one of a kind. You don’t make anything like you can do shapes,
Milan Pekar 28:27
shapes, shapes,
Matthew Dols 28:29
shapes the same but the glazes are different. Yeah. On the grand scheme, would you rather be respected or rich? You can’t have both. So if you’re respected, you’re not rich. And if you’re rich, you’re not respected.
Milan Pekar 28:49
What do you mean by what do you mean by respected?
Matthew Dols 28:53
Yeah, like you’d be in the history books, like you’d be you’d be a museum shows all kinds of but you wouldn’t have a lot of money
Milan Pekar 29:00
on my perspective. Okay.
Matthew Dols 29:04
That’s perfectly fine answer. Alright, so when it comes to galleries and the financial and the business side of things like so, did you approach design stores and galleries or did they come to you, you know, how did this happen? You know, I’m thinking for people listening to this like if they’re a ceramicist, a young ceramicist or even a, you know, somebody who’s emerging and trying to get more market like, how do you get to the the ability to sell like, did you go and do fairs and festivals started getting people interested in your works or how did you do it?
Milan Pekar 29:41
I think I was a bit like, always, when somebody asked me Do I send my board person to ask to because I’m really bad in PR.
Matthew Dols 29:50
As most creative people are,
Milan Pekar 29:51
and nobody else I was. I was bit lucky. I get help too, and I was getting the most of it. Like I get from the design festival in in a BRAC but but so you did a festival yeah okay you need to show some yes sitting in your workshop and thinking somebody some hacker will people think that though no i see i i can imagine maybe 20 years back people did think this but now you you really need to do at least at least something I think I think maybe not if it’s not going well maybe like pushing it a bit more I think sometimes will not help too if like maybe even part of not right okay you need to go right fair to end you need to probably choose which way you want to go but I think identify may be really not the best the best person because I only like I know people do lots of like all around war the festival and some design fair. And I’m not doing this too because the time to because it’s really hard to combine like to Cink and your own career it’s like it’s basically like two jobs it is the same field which is good if it’s if it’s like if you are in two different fields if it’s maybe you have your I don’t know you want to switch career and do you doing you’re doing like office job anyone to anyone to do ceramic this will be even more difficult to do get because you read the crossing to different field by this B bar. They can they can be very often much more better manager than artists like if you study at all like from the beginning. And if you if you didn’t anyone to switch career I can see sometimes these people actually it’s much more better. Sure. Look at Damien Hirst. Yeah. And this is Yeah, Vaizey Of course. You need to do some you need to do some fair and you need to do it if you do it. Just choose maybe van and Ravel okay do like everything anything can do you don’t have a time for asking this good to be can see and do what brag is we are lucky in the same law because it’s get big and there’s a lot of values coming from all Europe.
Matthew Dols 32:00
Yeah, but then but it’s a nice word of advice. The idea that instead of trying to do everything and basically sort of inundate the market to try and do scattershot and get just try anything to be more thoughtful and sort of choose one maybe most to a year let’s say to really focus your attention so they that idea is something that’s probably very beneficial to a lot of people because that’s not really what’s told usually they’re like get it out there get your work out there you know use all social media platforms do all this
Milan Pekar 32:31
social media even I get the social media has got you like I know people like posts every day I just don’t even know no diamond energy to do it. And it’s the same with fair if you do five or six of them you don’t have energy don’t have the money you will make them like badly I think you will get a you will get a tire it and it’s not necessary. Even sometime like good do you think it is good fair who come it’s not triggering, it’s all good have a lot of publicity. People aren’t really coming
Matthew Dols 32:56
with fares that mean a lot of people like who haven’t done these kinds of things they don’t understand how much time effort and money goes into and it’s not even just the cost of the booth it’s the cost of the everything else it’s the How do you make your booth pretty it’s the signage it’s the putting tags on things it’s making a price list it’s all the packing materials just to move all your stuff to the design fair. I mean, the I remember doing this stuff with myself and with other people even I used to organize an art fair back in Wilmington North Carolina and like
Milan Pekar 33:31
the cost of running those things is ridiculous and most if you do abroad if you do this this yeah because you’re doing at home and you need to only enter decline from your studio to do you can prepare everything you do live home and this is really advanced to like slyke was like now we’ll get an invitation if I want to do it in Shanghai I looked at price of course I was like I can’t do this no way if you can’t in order ship everything it’s shipped shipping artwork is extraordinarily
Matthew Dols 34:03
expensive. Like people don’t understand that they’re like, Oh, yeah, just just ship it. Like it’s not that easy. Like you have to build a crate you have to buy this nice specialized foam that works really well
Milan Pekar 34:14
and bangin shipping, hydrated but I do cheaper. It’s very because I shipping my own stuff I don’t need to like I don’t enjoy a day shipping. But I have good boxes. This is actually give advice to every student to build a good boxes,
Matthew Dols 34:26
well that just build them but learn how to build them yourself. Like because having to pay somebody else to build a box is very expensive. But if you can learn the technique of a good, like, I come from photography is my background. So like I was always taught like build your own frames. Like if you could build your own frames, you’re gonna save a ton of money and it was true. I built my own frames for 20 years and it saved me a ton of money because my work just got bigger and bigger and bigger to the point that if I tried to frame it, it would cost almost more than the work itself. It was ridiculous. So yeah I totally understand that
Milan Pekar 35:04
yeah and ceramic boxes really once you start to shipping and somewhere box really crucial I can always see an after revision of students thinking they can make some just cheap a proposal come to brokens three or four pieces to the gallery and there’s nothing You’re wasting your piece you’re wasting the shipping and everything. Good box. Yeah.
Matthew Dols 35:23
Yeah, okay, good boxes, like, like that advice. Alright, so not so so at your point in your career, you’re probably what mid career we would call you. I don’t know. I never understand these terms. Would you like what would you find yourself as emerging? Are you sort of stable and
Milan Pekar 35:40
when I’m too old for emerging too old? How old are you? 39
Matthew Dols 35:46
are you young I’m 46 Are you fine so well we will call you emerging probably Stokes like you’re not I don’t know what your well renowned probably in the Czech region, but like beyond that. How are you renowned people know your name outside here?
Milan Pekar 36:03
I don’t think so. Okay,
Matthew Dols 36:05
I don’t know. All right. So if you had let’s say you had all the money and all the time in the world so you didn’t have to work You didn’t have to produce for money. What would you make?
Milan Pekar 36:21
Oh, that’s interesting question. More probably. Yeah, I will probably do more I will have more I will kind of stop that like production which makes me money. Now whenever we experimented more recently I had to I had like some you know, some I had in like more maybe sculptural pieces and I have some glyphs I really don’t have a time to work with which may be not very interesting. How would they look like but they are interesting too. Because they’re very unique like the surface or sound like going into I know nobody else doing it and have to feel kind of this project I really know to suffer with right and overtime for two because it’s sometimes 100 It’s time to firing and mixing and it’s really like tensile fiber and I can only do it I even if I employ somebody I can because it’s something you had to do it I have in my head this probably something I will if I really don’t need to worry about money. I will I will do this.
Matthew Dols 37:15
Yeah. Okay. How about late so do you have Do you have collectors Do you have people that you know like, I mean, one thing I always wonder about like selling through galleries or design sources stuff is that you don’t know the buyer and the buyer doesn’t know you so that you can’t keep up with them and they can’t maybe easily keep up with you but I guess maybe that’s where social media fits in now like so if somebody goes to one of your design store and buys one of your pieces they can turn around and follow your social media so that’s sort of the the modern day mailing list idea versus the old days where you actually like knew who all your collectors were and all this so like is that is that something like do you keep up with your collectors or do does it seem like this has been transitioned to some other way
Milan Pekar 38:04
no i i don’t like I didn’t I yeah top my head some people I like I do LinkedIn like I know them and they and they do and they do they do call it nonsense and they asked what about the new when something to kind of build in collection but to I don’t want to bypass the gallery to like too often I don’t do it for pay somebody like asked me if I can buy it I can say you can buy it in a shop if you really interested you can you can visit me too but I read the first time say if you really because I’m not in my worship all the time. And I don’t even have others on website because I don’t want like people just turning because I only have some time in and I want this time for me at the sizing gallery like they needed they needed making money to your needs Am I still makes two more sells through the gallery. But both very good. Of course you sell it yourself you have more you have more money out of it. And I enjoy some people do events they like it and I know them longer time it’s really like I must say anytime I never have like person to come in and I regret I invited him that was person didn’t like it like most of the people they end like a day and that is I was amazed at the salary level happy to see the nivel shopzilla Porsche resort showroom of any kind. And it’s enjoyable to but like in need to hear need to I think to volunteer, but my vote should be thought of Center, which means it’s not so many people coming right.
Matthew Dols 39:30
So you were talking about the relationship of of a sale store and selling yourself to what what kind of deal what kind of a arrangements do you have with most of these places? Is it 40/60 50/50? Like what’s the
Milan Pekar 39:44
50/50 Yeah, it’s a usual.
Matthew Dols 39:49
Well, it’s not that usual. Actually. I’ve been talking to some other galleries that have very different setups. So it’s not it’s not as I thought it was usual, until I started doing this podcast now all of a sudden, it’s not I think it’s not that unusual but okay so 5050 is what generally what you walk in with that’s fine when you when you’re getting ready to work with a new space Do you do a lot of research about them? Do you ask friends like do you get references like it or do you just go like hey you like my work great happy to have you sell it for me and just give them some stuff
Milan Pekar 40:27
No I do like of course I do look I do look internet and something sometime I have like I have no intention I really knew like opening the shop which is risky I sent him all there’s basically almost no no reference but like i like to call like not only email I have to call with the person to I think you can tell a bit more on the phone but there’s always loads at escape but what I do do I get once One Day Sale I want them to at least a smaller cheaper buy it the pieces not commissioned like smaller pieces like because they do sell a bit more the bigger pieces only feels like it’s not so often but smaller pieces do and I really made this because I ran into some trouble before they didn’t pay or it was really hard to to get the pay okay that gallery like seven or three they accepted and if it’s really good gallery I know I had like I had another benefit to be in this gallery because people will see it and they know it’s good gallery I will not push them to buy they will not even it’s kind of dad that kind of galleries I didn’t know was that good? And I even myself know I’m benefited from because people even see in gallery and say me oh I would like to see in this gallery I would like to I would like to buy it or I have a gallery I had get like this the new gallery in in Sydney and they say oh I saw it in this gallery. Can Can we can we select an E by all which is your mean? So if I just wanted to small like so nice and small design short but I think like like like good one but it’s one that is not big I it’s few pieces it’s not
Matthew Dols 42:03
yeah but so that’s an interesting thing though that I’ve recently found out more about is that a number of galleries will do the buying outright versus taking on commission kind of thing. So like so in the ceramics world this is reasonably common like lesser lower priced point items might be bought
Milan Pekar 42:23
outright they know they sell it right they will buy and I did I did actually had to from beginning and some color like those first days ago if you don’t want your stuff if you display but I find it like it was really hard to keeping the Brazilian in it after keep account and have a loop what are the bigger pieces I can keep a track off okay, I know they have these two big vases and I can break it down some basic I’m by functioning like I had done I had on a wall like less than a writing and if set like grace it by the big old school souls who all get all my accompanies electronic after but this actually I find is work for me like better. And then
Matthew Dols 43:02
whatever works for you.
Milan Pekar 43:04
I’m not here you can do this if it’s more scale, landscape big scale and very small vases is more like sell an ID light and to buy it’s even easier for them to because it’s just one one bill and not bill like one small bill every month. And I think it’s work okay. And I
Matthew Dols 43:22
again I come from a different world like I don’t produce little smaller less expensive things
Milan Pekar 43:28
I don’t I can’t imagine if you do painting and stuff you really need they really need to know you’ve developed I don’t know if there’s any of that exists and if it’s developed by the
Matthew Dols 43:36
does it Yeah, yeah. Which which again I’m surprised about I hadn’t heard about this but I mean I’ve heard more and more about it I’ve heard about white cube and Saatchi and these kinds of places doing this where they’re buying outright things but
Milan Pekar 43:49
they know it’s good. Good good price good piece and then I can imagine they can even like storage for some time no answer right
Matthew Dols 43:56
yeah, I mean they pay a reasonable price now storage for 10 years and then suddenly they can bring it out and be like look at this amazing new thing and it’s worth
Milan Pekar 44:03
five times what I paid for it this isn’t really what happening in ceramic
Matthew Dols 44:07
that’s not what’s happening really in the real art world that’s
Milan Pekar 44:10
a that’s sort of an elite sort of level of stuff that’s not the norm I haven’t even ceramic it’s like I can see some even well known name at least I know in a check and this even like even like dead and still but still prices not really like jumping jumping too much it’s it’s just it’s because the material I don’t know why is it we did speaker with glass little check glasses know pretty well because we’ve got a good reputation and then they do big pieces is expensive to produce to to have much more bigger expense any jazz factory and the head bigger like bit ceramic. I had 70 meatball shop and I can produce or like producing produce in which is
Matthew Dols 44:50
where you can only produce as big as you’re killing.
Milan Pekar 44:52
Yeah, but still you can do quite like big pieces.
Matthew Dols 44:58
Okay, so looking back at your your your your career Do you have any sort of horrible failure or something that went horribly wrong that in retrospect you’re like damn, I wish somebody had told me about this or like, or I wish that people I hope that nobody else ever has to go through this because it was such a silly mistake
Milan Pekar 45:17
I don’t know I did hmm what I did after university I didn’t do ceramic It was really I was like I did I did struggle for some time and I tried all different things aboard with the route and I was even making like boats and maybe I shouldn’t but I just feel like full size human boats yeah wow nobody was all farmers didn’t make much money I was working for movie industry but i don’t know if i really like maybe if I like concentrate to start to building my like warship hunting is look very expensive in a time and efficent tables no market really anytime I can see this better like four people may be starting it now. It’s a better situation. But it’s bigger competition to now because there’s more people in it then used to be maybe 1015 years but definitely because we’ll have to it was harder to do it.
Matthew Dols 46:17
When looking at your the all the works you’ve ever seen in your life what what was the the work of whatever design or designer or artist or whatever, that somehow sort of moved you or somehow made an impact on your creative career. It can be anything in any medium like mine is a painter and I’m a photographer. Actually, no mine is a sculptor and
Milan Pekar 46:48
i don’t i don’t have like in what I like and said I’m a vice he’s well known I really like the work of Grayson Perry. British ceramicist. I like his he’s doing a lot of social project and things he’s not only do ceramic and i i do i do like his work but my work is not any I will not say he’s inspired me for but I like how he will have evolved with the hockey world with a with a ceramic but I look for inspiration very look to history of ceramic never looked like some like old technique or like old shape of devices or do you live or die enjoy to the news oh my goodness buy a lot from the from like history of ceramic because like ceramic is here for like they seem like at least 15,000 years or more. Yeah,
Matthew Dols 47:39
well it’s an interesting thing like because like a lot of younger people these days don’t look to history very much like they look a little bit to history but not a lot to history. And I’m I’m a big fan of looking to history. I don’t know Art’s not made in a vacuum
Milan Pekar 47:56
they know exactly you you building on your building on something and this is like this I can see very often when somebody come to study is Ivan made this totally new form of the ceremony I say no this every single invoice here Yeah, but you just need to do it differently or thinking differently on make it better. It’s not It’s not that you actually like thinking okay, I will make something nobody may even like I’m like surprise you look some some like do three jobs in Europe, ceramic and leucotomos it was made now some of the shapes but if you do combination of shapes, different technique, and you’re you are in different environment, this is exactly what can make it What can lay what can what can speak to people even even now, sure and sometimes like basic shape better than then too much of this is I will say real I like like to I like to look to the to the history of ceramics, I will say this big, probably inspired me more than one individual artist.
Matthew Dols 48:56
Let’s go as I said, like, I feel like a lot of people are sort of just not engaging with the history of art. And then they, they feel like they’ve got this great new idea and they think they’re somehow better than knowing and then giving a maaser or a tip two or just sort of a reference to some great art historical thing. And it’s I find it very unfortunate because as you sort of said is like I use the term like standing on the shoulders of giants basically like you I mean, there’s all these greats before us that did these amazing things. And we as being the next generation we should be standing on top of them so we should use their successes and their failures and try to be better than them to add something new, something unique something that’s special to us and to our generation and all this to progress the medium in some way. But a lot of people don’t think like that.
Milan Pekar 49:50
Yeah, because by the end we are lucky now to because like we can see now all happened. I because like we really good in documenting The history of vegetables and they start doing maybe 15th century in the Renaissance they start to look in like all pieces and even diverse like they didn’t have a big picture but now we really have like almost the beginning of mankind we you can you can look and we are like in a different position now too, but we do I think that people get like maybe Jenkins is fed up fed up of the Museo manitex thinking they see it all but it’s not it’s not it’s not it’s not reality because it was so the museum was so big things in like 19th century and 20th century it was so big that maybe they feel like all you see it all is boring and but it’s up to the curator to how they do how they do how they do exhibition and how it’s how it’s how it’s made to encourage encourage the people to look at it this is like I really like the VA Museum in London. They do really well it’s free, they changing the basic you can look to everything anything and it’s this kind of style I like to but you don’t see this in in a check too often For example, when you sit down in the studio to make a new piece Do you sit there and think
Matthew Dols 51:13
blue has sold really well recently I should make something in blue or do you think I want to work in this particular glaze dam the market
Milan Pekar 51:26
a double bowl survey and I think a second way is a better at it I sometimes have like a limited picky and they say oh we sell all these blue and yellow or we want this blue in hell and it’s sometimes a pain to make it because I it’s maybe it’s not really going well I don’t have the right ingredients and it’s really like I always try to fight them to know to do it this way I like to rather like what I make it and I never have I tell them I don’t have accumulated here or brown color or something it’s like they do they do they do find the market and it’s not yeah I didn’t like I had very often this question what a fashionable color this year and stuff it’s not I was I didn’t do like for example like an under fears I didn’t divide which is basically divide and divide the crystal that are not so zanaco flashy and I made one collection because we had exhibition with the future gardens visit land and member one coalition just all lied to fit it in because there was kind of a variable you have a black and white work and say okay, I will just fit into this and I make this and people see it and everybody won’t divide after
Matthew Dols 52:33
I would love that that sounds fabulous
Milan Pekar 52:35
yeah it’s not it’s not exactly any before if I will bring together to say oh no is no it’s not enough color they will not sell it but this is this is you you always will be fighting with them because it’s very often the gallery kind of like more a manager and they just kind of believe only what they see happen. And this is always a little bit I still have this they say okay v one v one blade red cell we want all red and I sometimes had to do and it’s and this letter it’s a pain and even though it’s not really from the business side I kind of know from experience is not really make much sense it’s making me like a little bit more difficult war but this is really hard to hard to hard to find five days because they they kind of see if you can see it’s a little bit different.
Matthew Dols 53:21
Okay but in the end what do you do like like the struggle is
Milan Pekar 53:25
began or nobody kind of between sometime I managed to like it’s really what’s the relationship I had with I had with the with the gallery some time I managed to talk to them. Yeah, just try just just try days. And oftentimes I like more stubborn and I just might just make it to it’s not it’s not big deal. It’s not something
Matthew Dols 53:52
I know people would be a very big deal to but it’s not to you and that’s fine.
Milan Pekar 53:57
But actually do this to a good gallery sometimes they actually can give you a little poster. I have Google artist in London and she sometimes she had like been had like some bigger kind of dislike and what I say Financial Peace and she said okay, maybe not too flashy, maybe try to do like just one color or something which was less and I was happy with it too. And it was syllabus It was good and it was good. You can actually if you have good gallery slide good really only not looking in a business they like it too you can get sad Good, good advice to from it’s not it’s not that you actually always feel that you are clever and you have better taste and you can get pushed from decide to if you have a good if you have a good color if that sounds like a great relationship have a good business relationship thing just happen it’s it’s happened probably quite often, too because when they do all live they see a lot of things they go is very interested in. Okay you have to kind of go there sometimes they just very often like businessmen by the gallery and thinking make a lot of money. And I see this fail very often. And
Matthew Dols 55:02
I would imagine the people that were businessmen would probably succeed more often.
Milan Pekar 55:06
I don’t know I just say see few and it was always bit struggle. And when you have given the real like, they put more time in it, they go around and it’s like, because they don’t counting you know, if your business you just thinking, Okay, I invest money in it left somebody to doing it, and I think this can be this can be problematic, too. Yeah, I’ve had was maybe they maybe they do more? I don’t know. Well,
Matthew Dols 55:27
I’ve heard countless times like different podcasts, books, movies, whatever the different places like it’s always about passion. Like, I mean, the people with passion will make it work.
Milan Pekar 55:38
Yeah. Because my personally, other than don’t want to run Art Gallery. I know, like some of my friends they had, like the ambition to do like open the shop, own staff or open shop with own stuff. And some I admire them, because I’m not like, I haven’t not do it now. So
Matthew Dols 55:56
you’re not your own public relations.
Milan Pekar 55:58
Yeah, it’s really hard. It’s really hard to hard to make it success to running it. And it’s, I think this is, this is actually hard, but then have your own studio. Definitely.
Matthew Dols 56:08
Oh, it is incredibly hard to just just, I mean, being creative takes a certain part of your brain, that’s completely different than selling your work. That’s a completely different side of the brain. Like, I’ve, you know, I’ve worked in art galleries, and I’ve done all that kind of stuff. And I’ve sold artwork, and I can sell your artwork, like nobody’s business, like you want me to sell your work, I will sell your work. But you asked me to sell my own work. And I’m, I’m at a loss. Like I can’t do it. I said, Do you like it? I like it’s one of my favorites. Like, do you then and that’s it?
Milan Pekar 56:46
I believe in I haven’t even began to mistake rule shows. And
Matthew Dols 56:49
yeah, yeah, be like, Yeah, I don’t really love this one because I made an error over here, you know, but like, it’s really hard because I can’t sell my own work. I can sell other people’s works. But it’s it’s really tough balance. Because like, you’re in an industry where you have to be your own most your best cheerleader like nobody. This is a big issue I have like, the arts industry seems like wow, maybe this is just being an adult. So maybe I have this wrong, but like the art It feels like the arts industry. Everybody wants you to fail. Nobody else in the industry cares if you succeed. Except maybe your galleries at the point where they’re making money off of you but but I mean, nobody wants you to succeed nobody’s going to help you to succeed unless it’s to their own benefit also, so that you have to have a sense of strong self confidence that you’re doing a good job that you’re making quality work whatever you need for yourself to keep you going because nobody else is going to support you in that in the way that you want as a creative person
Milan Pekar 57:59
they’ll say just do with every business is it oxygen if you open if you open bakery nobody really really like Curia to human to be success and you will have a competition I have
Matthew Dols 58:12
a bakery here in Prague that I do cheer and I don’t do it but I tell other people about them I
Milan Pekar 58:18
think they’re fine but because they are sharp if you look through I will say this is probably the same with media art even you have a lot of what what you can do you can apply a lot of ground and support the things you can you can do to which you can open robidoux do
Matthew Dols 58:36
you go for grants and all this do you apply for these things
Milan Pekar 58:41
to talk about through the i do i do apply through the university but this is really for the university and for myself and not not really first of all again it’s a time probably if I if I if I only work like in my studio I maybe look to something but then otherwise I’m quite I’m quite happy I can manage I really like to actually see my stuff set not only for the point of the making money but I really like to see gone right I really like to like see it go somewhere and this is like I’m not like I’m not like keep an eye exam people like to have I have home I maybe three three my vices or maybe not even maybe to actually and some other stuff I have like some really like few pieces home and I don’t even in my studio I really like to see making and I really happy to go have to go somewhere. Yeah, like
Matthew Dols 59:40
me too. I’ve had the discussion with people like there. They say like, Oh, I come to art openings to support the artists and say nice things. And you know I say nice things on social media about an artist. I say I said that’s all really fine and good. But the best thing you can say to an artist is that I want to buy your work. Like whatever it is. Whatever the price, it doesn’t matter. It’s cheap or expensive, the fact that somebody is willing to pay for and then having their home and experience in their lives that is the best thing that anybody could ever say or do like I would rather have five people buy some works than five critics write great reviews because the reviews are fleeting they’re whatever but like but that the the fact that people have said I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is and sit and say, I love your work so much I want it in my home and I want it as part of my life. That to me is the best thing that anybody can do to
Milan Pekar 1:00:35
Yeah, I must say do of course the venue applying the grant or something you can you have time for a development you can make something but you can get to I don’t know I will not feel like too comfortable if you get to the circular you just kind of developing something you don’t care. You don’t you don’t sell and of course you want to see you want this is kind of like exactly was the kind of gratification people like it was something of course after you can apply maybe competition winning some competition prize, I think this you have to kind of hear if like either you you want this kind of gratification to either selling it or you kind of collecting the day lots of competition who can apply? Well, that’s the question. Those may be different licenses may be different, different different, different gratification
Matthew Dols 1:01:20
is different. Cuz that’s more of a competition against the others, like basically putting you up on a different pedestal of like, I’m better than this other person or group of people kind of thing. But, but are they really worth doing? Like, you know, I mean, of course there are some of the great competitions in the world that are absolutely worth doing. And if you can win those, they’re, you know, life changing. But all the others like there’s I feel like they’re in this day and age maybe it’s just the internet and all this but there are so many competitions that don’t really do much.
Milan Pekar 1:01:56
Yeah, no, this if you look, there’s quite a lot of shows. You can like this is you can do too, you can apply you can apply many what I started with a little problem and I look some even like a competition to have one style. Yeah, really, because there is a jury which is like similar people and this style. It’s now like I know on and this is like this can be something funny if you if you have a look at what maybe last five years or something and you look through and you find and I think even some people actually really try to fit the style,
Matthew Dols 1:02:28
which is not a good idea. Like he because then you get famous or recognized for a style. That’s not your own style, because you’ve tailored
Milan Pekar 1:02:37
your routine kind of developing. Yeah, exactly you’re tailoring to. But it’s can be good too, that you’re kind of pushing yourself to do something different
Matthew Dols 1:02:44
pushing yourself to do something to fit into winning a competition, not everybody.
Milan Pekar 1:02:49
It’s a bozo. If you’re selling your push to make something people want to want to buy to, you have like I will say boss. I didn’t I didn’t. I I really don’t like to be very judgmental of this. But I think you always is like really? I think even if you are in this ideal situation like you’re telling me you have a lot of money. You don’t you don’t care you do what do you like it? I think you still you will want to be somebody like do you know like, if you are only person on a wall and you can make whatever you will not be very happy because you have no body to show it and you want people like it. And I think you still will be kind of pushing it too. I think people like to saying that very strong minded and doesn’t matter whatever. I think everybody really want some this tap on the shoulder. Perhaps you are good, which means you’re always kind of like, I don’t think you you can say I’m just doing it for I don’t really like when people are doing it for myself icing is total rubbish.
Matthew Dols 1:03:55
We have a debate with an old friend of mine from undergrad that what if you’re only making artwork for yourself, then you would never show it to anybody. Yeah. So by the inherent nature of the fact that you have put them out into the world for people to see, you have automatically said it’s no longer for me it’s for the world. So like any artist that exhibits work publicly and says it’s only for me as much of both because it’s not if you if it was really just for you you would never show anybody
Milan Pekar 1:04:24
and I think even unconsciously you kind of try to make something using the will be people like it either it’s a jury jury from some competition or it’s it’s a people buying it you have this in your mind
Matthew Dols 1:04:40
and now it’s such a tough balance because like you want to be as true to yourself and your own vision and your own creativity and all these kinds of like, you know, great rd rd conversations but like but on the other hand you want people to like it. I mean, but you know it, you know after years of like, I can imagine like if you’re some artists Sitting around and nobody’s ever liking your stuff. Like it’s got to start to, like really get depressing. Like, and it’s always it’s always interesting because like, I’ve had times where like, I’ll be making work and nobody likes it. And I’m like, Am I am I? Am I missing something? Am I I often wonder like, Am I ahead of the curve like have I thought too far ahead or am I really far behind the curve have I already missed the start time for this thing? And, and you never know like you just you just have to sit down and just sort of being self confident and somehow find a way through it but it’s hard like we all hit that that like point where it’s like for you I would imagine Have you hit points where like, suddenly you’re not selling as well in a particular place? And you’re like, What changed? What happened? Was it me? Was it the buyers? Did they change colors like the color of the year suddenly changing? You didn’t know it? Like I mean, that kind of stuff in it.
Milan Pekar 1:06:00
I think it’s good to not too much sync up because it’s in your head anyway. I feel this is in your head anyway. And there is no much reason to think about it. This is maybe one of the reason to I don’t get like make a running Balshaw with the people because after you really need to think about this you really need to sell a lot yeah, and you need you need you know if like, if it’s now stop selling I will still match right? It’s not that
Matthew Dols 1:06:26
you have 10 people working for you and suddenly stop selling
Milan Pekar 1:06:30
them okay your fire new fire
Matthew Dols 1:06:33
which sucks
Milan Pekar 1:06:35
Yeah, this can just can be and you don’t want this to happen which means he will he will spend a lot of energy to but this another like some people some people like this and this is a goal that they really want to they really want to go go back and actually then most of time it’s not really if you want I see the people go really big they do Boyd’s do work because you get kind of icing you had much you have bigger bigger because you had to building a you have bigger clientele and everything and you have kind of safe gosh much more safer questions and if you own the running yourself and you have few which may end maybe maybe not to cover too much we build
Matthew Dols 1:07:16
it they’ll come kind of philosophy like yeah, if you if you’re doing well enough that you can upgrade your facilities and your employees whatever then theoretically, you’re doing well enough that you can maintain that but i mean what happens like have you run into Have you run into a point where like you’re making stuff and you’re making like a series of works or whatever that you’re currently working on and then suddenly like it’s not selling Have you run into that
Milan Pekar 1:07:45
I basically do I had like one delight in selling it on other cells just sometimes something and you know it just kind of says constant maybe some places I had like some places like stop selling it or they just don’t want you know very often this like I don’t want to show new new things sure. But they try to say something new in Selma they move on I do get differently you get other plays, which means kind of but I didn’t read around like it’s maybe I’m not really on the business side I don’t write I don’t run big, big production but you’re always where you make only one style
Matthew Dols 1:08:23
at a time are you working on styles
Milan Pekar 1:08:27
are always working in multiple buildings. It’s a Yeah, it’s not just one one thing one thing so wanting some more than other but it’s not really just a one word
Matthew Dols 1:08:39
smart I mean it’s not all your eggs in one basket kind of
Milan Pekar 1:08:41
I think this is good exactly good to have a side project maybe you can when this they stop selling it you have more time to develop it and you already have something started and and you can look it’s even to venue when you have like an ice I speak some some other people when they have this they had like one thing said Lord and they know they’ve done other things they don’t sell it’s not something that bad but it’s you don’t have a time to promote it it’s not like that you you can you can promoted multiple like multiple pieces sure yeah I also got into day one to do just like maybe like few pieces from your wall they can they can have a space for ever like gotten a lot a lot of lot of pieces most of these guys and they they have run they had to pay rent and not bake. Yeah, also there’s this Riyadh gallery because they sell everything I think this is not the I don’t see in this business. Like there’s regular free Art Gallery. So I invite cubes like, like free art like
Matthew Dols 1:09:41
free a free Art Gallery. Yeah. Yeah,
Milan Pekar 1:09:44
there is a much more bigger scale and why and that’s one way to craft or whatever design. You can see they’re not big. But
Matthew Dols 1:09:54
that’s I mean, that’s the question of why so one of the one of the impetus is for me to start this podcast. Like these big what you would call free art galleries. Fine Art Gallery fine on dates, but that’d be the word that well that’s the American term we
Milan Pekar 1:10:08
use for it free art is, is very European. This is actually like free art even I kind of translated from Czech. Okay, I was wondering
Matthew Dols 1:10:15
where that came from. So yeah, the fine art guys like how do they make a living? Like I’m sure we all know about the big ones, the sacis the white cubes, the you know, the all the New York hours and stuff, but like, my thing is, is like how do I want to? What am I hoping by this creation, this podcast is to make it so that all the people in the middle like, there are a lot of tutorials and classes and whatever for beginners. And there’s a lot of press and conversation about the Saatchi sales in the Christie’s and Sotheby’s and all these big prestigious Venice Biennale is it’s it’s the the working class people in the middle, like how can they get better? You know, you go to that that next echelon of their career, you’re How can you get another better gallery or raise your price or, or find a new style or whatever, that that next thing. So like, that’s what I’m sort of hoping to, I don’t know, inspire or assist people in finding for themselves the ability to make that next leap of a career path. That’s my thing. All right. So let’s try and sort of wind this down. So as I’ve told you before, and the podcast that I have a, what I call quantitative and a qualitative end goal for this are not in gold, but like goals. One of them is that I desire to have a work of mine. So since I’m the one running this, I’m going to use myself work of mine in the Museum of Modern Art in New York. And so every guest, I’m going to ask them, what’s their recommendation to give me some thing that you believe I should do to go on that path. And then I will go do it. So whatever you recommend, I will go do and then I will also keep people involved, I will keep you all updated with the results of all of these things that I’m going to do from all these different perspectives. So what’s your recommendation on how to get there?
Milan Pekar 1:12:19
I didn’t. Yeah, I didn’t see I didn’t see myself be in this stage. And I didn’t have this kind of maybe this is my mistake to just kind of long big long goal when Chad Meyer who may have it, I only have like small small steps. I don’t know this is that was joking last time just take one and stick it in. Yeah, that’s it. That’s sort of before it was done before FGV
Matthew Dols 1:12:43
sort of cheating now, I mean, my I want to I want to basically the idea is I’m trying to learn and and you know, through all of you also through all these guests and everybody that I get to talk to him hoping to learn how the art world functions well enough that I would be able to follow the system and follow the breadcrumbs to to the end goals. So that’s the one quite quantitative because that one will have a literal resolution at some points. Hopefully, I will actually have a piece on installation in the Museum of Modern Art. The other one is what what kind of things sort of for anybody who’s listening so not just the two of us, but anybody’s listening like what’s a recommendation to make it so that you can have a sustainable livelihood? So that you can make enough you know, not be rich or anything like that but just be able to make it in your artistic and creative career. What’s the any sort of recommendation personal recommendations?
Milan Pekar 1:13:43
Okay, the first one I think you need to you need to get the frame rate greater. Okay. Great different definitely. I think this is I think very important if you want to get this kind of gallery or I can but I’m not really even linked to like thinking something something like this Not for sure not the sustainability thing. Yeah, I don’t know. And I think in the in like my field like which I will say is a craft. It’s good to like slowly build your workshop because this is your essential but I will not get crazy with like sometime when everything but slowly build a workshop and try to find out if you can make money don’t go crazy, because I know some people just want to just want to fool like a vulture with everything and thinking this is the we love toys. Yeah, exactly. You get this like, boy toys. Yeah. Gear acquisition syndrome. Yes. Yeah. I
Matthew Dols 1:14:42
think I’m in photography. They love they’re like, Oh my god, it’s it’s absurd. The amount of gear that photographers Oh, yeah, I’m technically still a photographer. Even though I don’t take pictures very often. I don’t even own a camera anymore. Like, I mean, it’s silly. Like taking nology keeps changing so dramatically so quickly like it’s easy I don’t shoot it often enough to invest in all that equipment I’ll just wait in rented when I need it you know like if I’m only gonna be shooting even like once or twice a month I can just rent daily and it’s going to be substantially cheaper than like buying and sustaining all the digital equipment as it continually evolves and changes and gets outdated you have to buy new and
Milan Pekar 1:15:26
this is definitely different in a craft or an end because you have like some time I’ve in-joke like technology of ceramic didn’t change for many years using the
Matthew Dols 1:15:36
same tools that your great great grandfather did
Milan Pekar 1:15:38
yeah, you can okay we had an electric killer and then I can because I do like a lot of technical work and basically computer connect to the Katelyn but you can do without it to Oregon a lot of people look a lot of people I just made a kind of Japanese style killing on a garden and yeah I think you need to you need to some you need a sandbar shop I’m not personally I’m not like I know a lot of people do in big cities and not like big fan of sharing workshop because I always think it is a kind of there is a kind of like you will fail to work with so many people when you when you when you want to it’s fine No experimenting of anyone to get serious I think even you need your own workshop or maybe with a partner or something to show and
Matthew Dols 1:16:24
I don’t like people touching my stuff. Yeah, I love it. No
Milan Pekar 1:16:27
I’m not I know I know this very popular now the sharing biasing is only good for start. And after you really need to look into who you need to find out like if you want to be in city or countryside, maybe maybe better and to try to get your style and something you can sell it’s not it’s not i can i don’t know i don’t have any hard recommendations. It’s hard it’s hard business it’s really you always be very easy easy to destroy by like some particular local situation or something and I think what’s very important get out of your country I mean with no no I mean like go against a knock on three by the video. Video find out gallery or sale I think is very important to sell out of out of your out of your country to I’m maybe not nobody good English in this. You need to find a market like bigger markets and Okay, if you’re in America, you don’t need
Matthew Dols 1:17:27
basically what you’re saying is good. Find your market don’t assume the market is wherever you are.
Milan Pekar 1:17:32
Yeah, it’s a good too, because always now it’s all very well the local people want, like low people like everywhere.
Matthew Dols 1:17:41
Yeah, here here in the Czech Republic, I have found that a lot of collectors and buyers, as they say, Oh, we like to buy local. We like to support local and all this. But that’s not true everywhere. I know lots of people that are like, No, I don’t care whether I don’t care where it comes from, as long as it’s good. Yeah, no, I
Milan Pekar 1:17:57
mean, like, it’s my it’s work. It’s part of it’s part of the market. Some some people like it’s nice to do when you when you have somebody like you know, like, Well, you know, it’s come to your worship, it’s good, too. But I think you really need to live in Europe, at least look and look within Europe, because it’s can do now if like, if there’s Chairman, I may go back to have at least had the market. But I will say in Europe now one economic robot a robot.
Matthew Dols 1:18:23
Yeah, the European market is all sort of tied together. But but but the idea of focusing more on finding the market for your work, instead of making work and expecting the local market to sustain you. I think that’s a good sort of idea that maybe a lot of us haven’t thought about. Like, I didn’t really think much about it until I moved here to Prague about a year and a half ago. And for the past year and a half. I’ve been showing my work to galleries and trying to get exhibitions and stuff like this, and just very little interest in my work. And what I finally realized after like a year was that, well, why do I think that just because I live in Prague, that Prague is my market. And it’s really not. And I need to realize and I needed to realize basically the words of advice that you’re giving, I just recently figured out for myself, which is my work is not necessarily fitting where I live so I just have to find a different market for my work and i’m i’m not saying it’s gonna be easy or it’s close or anything like that. But there’s some other market that probably is better than the one I’m living in now. So it’s a great little idea that we
Milan Pekar 1:19:31
need to of course it’s to convert now with social media, email, everything you can communicate, but of course you still get a better relationship with people who you can meet sure even some galleries I had like in the good one London nowhere she’s come back I know her it’s much more easier for great and if you’ve worked with a stranger
Matthew Dols 1:19:52
is I guess the last little bits would be Do you have any sort of things that you want to share or talk about for yourself? That But I haven’t touched on some, some knowledge that you’re like, I love sharing this knowledge.
Milan Pekar 1:20:07
I didn’t. I didn’t know I think I even I feel like I talk more than I know. We all do. Yeah, I didn’t, I don’t I don’t, I don’t, I don’t really know. I think it’s really all of those. It’s, it’s unavoidable. Like, if you want to get rich to something else, you really need to I think you need to you need to, you need to like it. But once you it’s really good if you can, but this is what I don’t know. I think it’s big, a lot of Croatia. It’s a good one to make at least make your living and you’re making it’s really joy. It’s not that you serve morning to suffer, go to work, and stay late at night and you are annoyed of it. But then either way, it’s really like it can be it can be really hard to do have some family life or social life to Sunday. Because you spend so much I spend so much. It’s all fine when you’re with yourself when you’re alone or something is because you spend so much time in a workshop and video work and when you combine the career with something else, sometimes we very often had to you just find out you may be spending too much too much time which this can be a big danger a big danger to then like nine to six job. Sure it will actually veeck entity or working day to day. Right.
Matthew Dols 1:21:25
I totally understand that my wife and I have a going back and forth about free time and vacation time and all this kind of stuff. So like yeah, so are you married single? children?
Milan Pekar 1:21:36
No children. Okay. Does this big? big part of it? Yeah, I wasn’t concerned. Yeah. And actually, I now start to like think really, I should take a holiday and things like this. Because even if I take hold, it was kind of working holiday and I didn’t say started because of the getting getting 40. And I still thinks you should maybe enjoy life a little bit to have its birthday. I think this is like a lot of people have this is a great danger because you like it and you spend all the time with it. But you need to decide if this was it or not. This is maybe yes. Maybe you didn’t talk about it. Because it’s not even about money. And I think it’s just like, it’s taking a lot of time and I don’t think you can do it to take little time or something. Just you can do it like Obi Wan it’s not maybe it’s not what be talking about it.
Matthew Dols 1:22:23
Yeah, my wife calls my art a hobby. And it’s a it’s a Czech translation thing. But basically her perspective on it is, if I’m not making a living from it, whatever it is, doesn’t matter what if I’m not making a living from it, it’s defined as a hobby. I personally like being a being an educator and being a academic and I’m an artist, I find a fence at my work being called I
Milan Pekar 1:22:48
do when I know. But I said you can do it. Like if you like it, you can really do it, like obey maybe have some time some exhibition or something and you have different job. But it’s not really I think this is not what we would be talking about in the city live if you want to do it, professionals different different different story. This is I think it’s even different story about you say like, you have tons of money and you can do whatever you do. It’s a, you are in different level two, and this can be actually a hobby.
Matthew Dols 1:23:20
Think of all the artists that like they suddenly came into a lot of money and then they change style that changed materials, the changes, you know, all everything because they didn’t have to do something, then they could just do whatever they wanted. So they like did some other material and yeah, it happens a
Milan Pekar 1:23:34
lot. And it’s gonna be even bucks too. I think it’s not anymore. Like I’d like to do that. Like people have this kind of old fashioned like from Bangkok time that artists should be hungry. I had actually one gallerist she was like she kind of pushed me to some like demon play. And she had this argument I just don’t like Fitzroy gallery told you. Yeah,
Matthew Dols 1:23:55
a starving artist
Milan Pekar 1:23:58
was like this, like very old gallery. So it’s like I was like I was I was laughing in a format of saying, This is what I’m looking for.
Matthew Dols 1:24:06
There’s no need to be a starving artist these days. I mean, but but it, it feels like it’s changing a lot like you we have to be more active. Like, there was a years ago, I had to write a grant and they said, Oh, write out three page thing about your artwork. And I’m like, if I wanted to write about my work, I would have been a writer like I’m an artist, like said, like, let me just just judge me on the criteria of the quality of my work. Not that way I write about my work. But these days, like you kind of have to be able to write eloquently about your work as well. Like you can’t, you can’t just make a beautiful thing and put it in the world. You have to give it some extra gravitas. Give it some more depth. I mean even your stuff. I’m sure you put it out in their head there is a story is Like oh well this glaze is this historically special glaze because of yada yada yada and and you have to give it whatever the work is you have to give it that extra layer that is not just I make a beautiful thing love the thing like you have to these days I feel like you have to put more depth or something or I’m not sure what the right
Milan Pekar 1:25:25
more and then in a fine art mostly sometimes without the long text you don’t even know what it’s about
Matthew Dols 1:25:31
well that’s yeah that’s a different issue completely
Milan Pekar 1:25:34
it’s really like you but I think devoted whatever what I find amazing they really want you to write about your work very professional, but actually the the critic or or the generalists like for a magazine newspaper they really bad in writing as I said this is really go like if I look some all the magazine say rideable the vice versa like rubber like maybe even check in like six days seven days there was good articles about it go to Poland very good article now there’s no there’s very like few of people they can have right Val abode if I’m in craft but they want you to write everything and they just like basically all like magazine or a lot of like even there’s a lot of website about design it’s copy and paste very often.
Matthew Dols 1:26:23
Yeah no
Milan Pekar 1:26:24
idea like I don’t want to I’d like somebody to write something about my wall that I can maybe get even out of something I would love it too because it’s
Matthew Dols 1:26:32
clickbait they’re just looking for fast easy simple they’re not looking for eloquent and I think
Milan Pekar 1:26:38
this is what what is what quite missing and I think this is even this push that you should ride it’s a little bit of laziness on this on this side to this day city like even with a curator of something is like not so damn good but not so not so not so not so many and I sound like I’m really annoyed when this like write me or can you give me the text and after I can see they only like me given some mistaken ad copy half of it and it’s
Matthew Dols 1:27:08
it’s funny like when I was preparing to do this podcast I started thinking of questions and some one of my questions that I was thinking about asking was Are there any art critics out there that you respect and you read and you listen to and how suddenly like there just aren’t that many well respected international art critics at all much less like your best stuff can you even name like three well renowned international art critics that are working right now.
Milan Pekar 1:27:38
In a fine art I’m not really too and in in I craft ceramics as most of them reductions are like dead. That’s more valuable passage. I mean, the holes in the check days, but he’s now more about with architecture is Adam stick is kind of like manvi my my generation passes almost all like other university try to now they had a they had a master degree master degree photoreal fod, and we just hoping some people get kind of catch on this, like, craft.
Matthew Dols 1:28:12
It feels like there’s sort of like this. There was a time where art critics sort of ruled the roost, they they they controlled and made or broke artists and created people’s entire professions. It seems like that’s sort of that time might have passed like it seems like they’re not the ones in control anymore.
Milan Pekar 1:28:33
Yeah, I think this is a good point too, which can be good. It can be bad to good is it for because like you need to be friendly with them. And it’s probably make you I don’t know because i didn’t i didn’t experience this but what I can hear like from maybe older generation, they can really make you make your failure easily and this now it’s I think it’s like with everything is really saying English decentralize decentralized and it’s up to like social media a lot and it’s up to you and there is not three which which is good too but I think what what is bad too for it’s kind of developing maybe a tutorial I think this is what they’re lacking to I’m sorry what like don’t maybe tutorial art or theory theory theory. Okay. I think men maybe maybe it’s little better in finance. When they really you have the gallery and you still have to have a curators but I bought I really like missing in missing in in like this like apply art or craft and I think there is a daisy missing kind of like like centrepointe or something which can you always have something to maybe they don’t they maybe there is we don’t we don’t we don’t see it now. I think even fine artists dalata last I will say that I think they feel like they try everything anything, but they still I think there is a search for and then like in a in a final I think they will be in apply art or craft, they will be good to maybe have have something some to something like this too. They was like they always say I think they there is a kind of two, maybe two point and I think they are very fashionable to him like kind of sustainable design, which is sometime sometime I can see them more it’s more fashionable things in really sustainable things, right? Yeah. Like eco friendly, yes, single family by venuti look into it is not really is just like look, I always kind of experimental, or there’s a lot of like kind of, um, maybe I can make some traditional technique or make it like using some traditional technique to some like new design, which is very, very fun. I can see it’s like it’s can be I think this is even kind of going it was a little like maybe few years back, this was very, very fashionable, which is a good thing. But sometimes you can see it’s really somebody like pushing it to be like to be in a trend. But this kind of trend, but I think there is I just kind of feeling I have this days, days and missing something. Some kind of like bigger, maybe bigger.
Matthew Dols 1:31:24
I don’t know, I don’t know how to
Milan Pekar 1:31:27
maybe mainland or something neat. Yeah, bigger meaning maybe in. But maybe that is and you really have to see it. But it’s exactly what I think there is no i don’t see, I don’t see any.
Matthew Dols 1:31:37
I think well, that kind of stuff. hindsight. I mean, you know, there’ll be able to look back 10 1520 years from now and look back here and say, oh, there was this whole movement of, you know, eco friendly, whatever, you know, that sort of defined this generation. But in the end that that kind of stuff comes up to history is written by the victors. So it’s like the the most successful artists and ceramics
Milan Pekar 1:32:02
these days this I’m like, the addition of the art or the crap that he maybe write some manifesto or something to something, try to even maybe thinking, Oh, this is what we should do. And they some kind of strong opinion about it. But there’s not nothing. There’s nothing here now.
Matthew Dols 1:32:19
Yeah, that’s like you don’t hear about people writing manifestos. Yeah,
Milan Pekar 1:32:22
I didn’t, like have personally I like don’t, I’m not big fan of it. But I would like to, I would like to see it even you say, Oh, he’s not true. Or I love the concept of an artistic Manifesto. I
Matthew Dols 1:32:35
think it’s fabulous, but I don’t want to read one or write one. But I’d love to hear the idea I
Milan Pekar 1:32:40
do. I didn’t mind to read it. And I think this, of course is weird, like with social media to you just looking pictures like ganking and try to match it something similar and, and I can I can really see it’s much more different than juste if you lose a picture and if you after like maybe like really speak to artists or read something about it or maybe like good text we did. And I think this conclusion is all like visual.
Matthew Dols 1:33:05
It’s an interesting issue because like the they say that the humans were designed to only have about 150 friends or relations and now are literally like our social networks are billions of people. I mean between social media and emails and and and the news basically being you know, broadcast around the world from everywhere else around the world. I mean, we’re actively involved in Yeah, I mean for goodness sake, you have an excellent you have work in London and Hong Kong you said and Sydney, I mean, but like 50 years ago, that would be nearly impossible. Yeah. So that your your market when you you were an artist was this basically as far as your car could drive or as far as you you could mail something easily, you know, but like the idea of being in this massive international market that we’re now in I mean, who do you listen to? You know, like what you know, there’s so many different things going on so many different parts of the world like how do you find the market for your work?
Milan Pekar 1:34:10
No, I think I think this is we come to the same point like you could have it 50 years back to Davis like but you had to work through there was maybe some sort of it association or something and they get you to the places through the maybe even through the government and it was like you need to be in this kind of like maybe group or something and now you can do it yourself but that’s the thing.
Matthew Dols 1:34:29
Now we have to do it.
Milan Pekar 1:34:31
Yeah, you had to do a budget before okay but but before I said what we say you need to be friendly with these people you need to be you need to be involved but it was maybe more person and Bruce Davis they were somebody right statement and put together for now it’s everything kind of like it’s almost sometime you are lucky or somebody is very active on I can see it can do law like gets very active on like social media, to get you to the places you pushing it
Matthew Dols 1:35:00
does social media actually gets the use of the places you want to be? I don’t hear about a huge amount of like literal direct like they they people did social media or they first they had to make quality work then they put that quality work on social media that quality work on social media led them to x curator x gallery x exhibition X amount of sales like you don’t hear about those straight lines.
Milan Pekar 1:35:26
No, no, I don’t know I don’t I don’t believe it’s like if you do just social media, they will solve the VR problem and get a good contact. But people accept once you you need to build it anyway. And once you have it beat but people actually really expect you to have something like I didn’t have a year ago I didn’t have Instagram It was me you really had to Oh, yeah, you should have to you have to have it nobody now looking on a Facebook and you really push to push to do it because they want to see the stuff they want to get updated for them. Is it easy to they get your update like this? And oh, oh, I see this, this you have this new things and his work is what it is. Right? But it’s not available because there’s tons of stuff and if you just hoping you putting the you putting the you putting the even like some
Matthew Dols 1:36:13
like didn’t know something amazing or nobody will notice if they don’t know you is a question like, you know, with the the sheer volume of stuff that’s on social media, does your sort of Race to the Top is yours the cream of the crop? And how do you do that? I mean, it’s an algorithms that they’re they these these I don’t
Milan Pekar 1:36:32
even realize you’re just doing through the
Matthew Dols 1:36:35
sort of so what’s the so in your mind within the knowledge of social media, your your gallery spaces that exhibit or design spaces that exhibit your works? What’s the the the the way to success in the 21st century? Like how, you know, what’s it What’s a path, a path, maybe not the path but like a path? What What is it you think is the
Milan Pekar 1:36:58
I really I really think I’m not the best person to give anybody
Matthew Dols 1:37:02
you’re the perfect person to do.
Milan Pekar 1:37:04
I’m not I’m not this I am not is known. And it’s not even that I that I like making tons of money with my with my work. And I know everybody I had like, advice from some friends, she’s, she’s like, ditching the PR. And she said I do really badly she even given me some students who help me like do kind of the teaching to try on me how to improve it. And they give me basically homework, everything I shall do to actually improve this and how to try fail. I have no time to do this. And
Matthew Dols 1:37:36
I had no desire.
Milan Pekar 1:37:39
This is But no, no, actually, I will this is exactly like I will have to take this time from my cap time for my workshop or teaching and put it into this. And I actually really do social media too. Like, it’s my last things you know, this is,
Matthew Dols 1:37:53
but and it may be to me, washing the dishes with that. But that’s an excellent issue that like, I don’t think that like a lot of people that are outside the arts world really understand is like, in order to fit in social media, which is more or less, we’ll call it new, like artists, we have our jobs, whatever we have to do to make money, whether it’s art or something else. And then we have some free time to do our own personal creative work. And then and then now on top of that we have to add in being our own public relations people like some literally as another part time job, that the people in the arts industry have to add on to their list of things that they need to get done. So not only do they have to make beautiful works and interesting creative stuff, but they also still have to do other testings and trials and failures and things that don’t work. But now we also have to be our own PR people by like working in social media. And it’s it’s a whole different way of thinking. I mean, it’s pure business model, it’s pure public relations, it’s pure cult of personality. It’s like all these things that most people that get into the arts don’t want to do and that’s why we chose to get into the arts because we don’t want to do these things. But now we’re forced to do them.
Milan Pekar 1:39:09
But But I’m wondering like maybe this other generation really feel like okay, I’m doing it and I have to do it I know it’s more kind of but maybe the young generation I feel they maybe they grow in it they just do it naturally more like Kenya
Matthew Dols 1:39:24
but it doesn’t help you and me
Milan Pekar 1:39:25
know but maybe it’s like doing like a dinosaur in this and they just worried like this I say I maybe I’m not really the right person to to give this give this advice because I’ve just really doing it this is pain. I’m don’t doing I don’t do it. Well, I even get professional advice on it that I’m not doing it well.
Matthew Dols 1:39:47
So do I it’s fine. No, I mean, no, you’re everybody has something. There have been some great things that you have said I mean, I’m that I will remember after this is done. So don’t think like you don’t have good You have good advice, and you have good insights and ideas about things. It’s just, I mean, the problem is is like us as creative people, like we spend so much time trying to be creative and trying to do our thing that oftentimes we don’t really even take a step back and realize, wait a minute, I make beautiful things. And people love them. People buy them, like you’re you make these these pieces, and you put them out in, in design shops, and people love them, and they buy them and they collect them. But you don’t have time to sit back and think about that, because you’re more involved with trying to put out more social media trying to produce the next thing that you have to produce, because you have to, you can’t just sit on, the last thing you made you have, your best thing has to be the next thing you’re about to make, not the thing that you just made, or else you’re sort of not continuing to make work. So it’s tough. Like it’s an ever evolving career, like we like a lot of careers, like you can just do something and you do it really well and you can sort of just sit there and just do it really well. But we have to continually evolve we have to continually learn new skills, learn new techniques that are new, you know, social media is a new thing that we have to learn you have to continually learn new glazes and new techniques and maybe maybe in the kilns are now electric but they probably weren’t electric when you started well yeah, I don’t know how long I remember I remember a gas kill I remember charcoal kilns for that matter. But but you know things change and we’re always having to they may god I’m starting a podcast I’ve had to learn how to do all this audio recording stuff. Man I did video before but I’ve never really honed in on the mastery of these techniques and we have to continue to redefine ourselves every couple years it seems like yeah but
Milan Pekar 1:41:45
it’s not like I’m I don’t think I don’t want to look like complaining artists because I think if he will open any shop I don’t know if he will open vapor shop you find things changing and you need to maybe even like small shops or if you open bakery or find evil had to be social media to get involved community to like you and I think it’s every like only okay if you get employ then to six business you save maybe not even because if you will be some high end manager you will have a lot of your worry to and overwork and everything but I think it’s with every if you want to do any job good and mostly if you like running your I don’t think there’s a big difference running your business like if you do if you’re an artist or if you if you’re running if you’re running close shop or something or some fashion shop you will probably running into similar it’s basically you You are only responsible and you need to make it well and things changing very often this is exactly what you like maybe like 50 bucks you can have the shop and this Davos Simon people behave same for all your life and now it’s everything changed and I can even see like even small ice cream shop have to run the social media to doing it Val to get involved to like get involved community and people like write a review and you have few but review Aria gone I was speaking in like and was in Korea and it’s like restaurant are super polite and they say because just like too bad review and you can close because everybody loves that people are very demanding and this is not only like it tends to sometimes in god it’s like really hard and everything but it’s it’s I will say this run through for
Matthew Dols 1:43:31
so it’s just business is hard
Milan Pekar 1:43:33
yeah it doesn’t
Matthew Dols 1:43:34
matter what businesses whether it’s a creative business or a retail business or service
Milan Pekar 1:43:38
I think you will okay but you this is same to when you have even retail business you need to be I think you need to like it to or do what you’re doing but I don’t know I just don’t like to I just have time to like the people like I’d be thinking I’m something like better and my job it’s so hard and I’m so special Ivan like i don’t i don’t see I think you everybody running to similar to similar difficulties and mostly if you’re running the if you sell basically say to employee it’s it’s it’s hard and you don’t even want to speak like all the paperwork but if you’re selling something to abroad and check can be super difficult to make like tons of paperwork every month and there’s actually some things we didn’t we didn’t touch and this is what I see student after school that he was surprised to get like sell your stuff out of your opinion or something I said like few classes and I have same paperwork like if somebody’s shipping 10 container same for me. So with the taxes and everything and to prove it get out of your opinion to receive that it was received somewhere in like Australia and you’re doing it for little money because you’re selling like few pieces This is another like it’s completely different. Oh yeah the amount of the this person I am who I have, like I’m content because this was like when I get to this I was like she even had to like, have to look she’s okay. I will sit on the I need to study law like,
Matthew Dols 1:45:05
yeah, my wife is an accountant, so I’m hoping she’ll be able to help me with that. We’ll see. But yeah, it’s I mean, the amount of that it’s funny like I was gonna ask you about that the the amount of arts education that generally artists get when they go to a school is great. And we all walk out with techniques and concepts and theories and all this. But walking out with business sense, like the fact of like, insurance, legal paperwork, model releases if they use figures or whatever, you know, consignment agreements, like, Do you all teach that here at onprem?
Milan Pekar 1:45:42
Yeah, there’s a few years back they started Yeah, I don’t know. Because I didn’t when I was started, you should go see. They haven’t now. I don’t know how good is it because these things are really hard to teach. Because you need to come into it and I can see you can get to situation even I have good like it’s like a content company that good to NZ running now. I basically had a problem like I somebody pay me from Australia, but even to ship it to America. And we get to the problem. like nobody know how to make this properly. Yeah. Who’s it? Which
Matthew Dols 1:46:15
taxes? Do you pay that? Yeah,
Milan Pekar 1:46:16
exactly. It’s for like, two small vases. And this is I think you can’t it’s good to the teaching here more than like teaching here, which is good to be didn’t have any of this actually. 15 years back.
Matthew Dols 1:46:31
Yeah. And I didn’t get
Milan Pekar 1:46:32
the teaching how to how to make at least a simple contract, and how to do your taxes. I can’t even I have to remember. I never been very, I’m quite practical minded, and never been denied. But I know some of my friends which finished with me, or similarly a table sinking artists don’t need to pay taxes and things like that. It’s like really, and it wasn’t they wasn’t stupid, but they just have the same notion. Like, why I had to pay taxes, I’m making the art. But it wasn’t like it was just because nobody even like, tell us anything. I remember, I because I was already working after like, during the university that was working like some restoration work and things like this, which mean I had some experience with how to build and how to make a tracksuit but some people just come out of like, I remember how it’s really funny conversation with few of my friends was like the camera like better prepared now but i think i think still is really it’s hard to fit everything to the they already have a lot of curriculum.
Matthew Dols 1:47:33
Yeah, I was gonna say well, it’s also hard because like in an art school like this, like you’re trying to cover all bases so like, here’s all the legal things for photographers versus sculpture versus a stonemason. I mean, like they have totally different legal issues like in and of themselves
Milan Pekar 1:47:48
into similar
Matthew Dols 1:47:49
some of the civil me taxes and things like that. But I mean, like when you get into like, like your issue of like shipping internationally and then
Milan Pekar 1:47:58
I come to this like for the first time into this like I was, I even though I started even now know, at least I support this will be verbal and before I just make it and was like Oh, she did everything and didn’t have a paperwork and oh, I’m first I’m even to call the finance department. They don’t know,
Matthew Dols 1:48:13
oh, years ago, I had an exhibition, the some works in Cuba, and I was an American. And my way exhibition was in Cuba, and the State Department in the United States sent me this like 30 page document that I had to fill out explaining my trip to Cuba. And I had to explain to them over the course of 30 pages that I never went to Cuba, my artwork went to Cuba, and they didn’t get it like they made me keep filling this out. And they kept it’s like they were trying to trick me into like getting me like, Oh, we know you were in Cuba was never in Cuba, my artwork went to Cuba, but I boy they but the government just loves questioning in it and trying to get everything they can out of us. So yeah, I mean, having good knowledge of like, I’ve fallen into the dumb luck of here in the Czech Republic, I’ve actually my wife is an accountant and one of my best friends is actually an attorney who is very supportive of the arts as well. So like, you know, finding these kinds of legal people has been pretty easy for me here because I have no idea because like I would write a contract in English which is not legally binding here. So even just these kinds of language barriers in different countries could be issues as well.
Milan Pekar 1:49:25
And you really need to accept like a lawyer. You need somebody to because you’ve run into some issue somebody don’t pay or something you definitely run into it. There’s no and I know some time I had like rent to the like gallery didn’t pay and they didn’t these didn’t sync is based off money to pay a lawyer or something never get a and this is this is another which is big issue to the gallery don’t pay for different vaccines this can be hold.
Matthew Dols 1:49:52
Is that common? Yes. That’s unfortunate. So some gallery has taken advantage of you basically taking your product from you,
Milan Pekar 1:50:00
they’ve So don’t ever run out of the money or
Matthew Dols 1:50:04
they can run out of money if the money is based off of buying things. Yeah.
Milan Pekar 1:50:07
Yeah, but they spend them on staff or something, you know, they don’t sell. And if I had a shoe and I know why some of my friends have a shoe now, too, and it’s not it’s, it’s actually it is more common than should be. I think everybody run into into this.
Matthew Dols 1:50:25
I’m aware of it. I just don’t think it’s that you just set the money aside, when you make a sale, you set the money aside, you don’t spend it on something
Milan Pekar 1:50:33
else. Ideally,
Matthew Dols 1:50:34
it’s money you owe to the Creator.
Milan Pekar 1:50:37
But it’s
Matthew Dols 1:50:40
we come back and revisit this sometime.
Milan Pekar 1:50:43
Nice Island days, nothing much to do be careful. But I still it still can happen. You never know. Even those galleries, they cannot have done the money and it’s not. But I think every passing, if you do a diversion to definitely in shape, I can imagine this can happen abroad.
Matthew Dols 1:51:00
It does happen. Now I’ve known in another country. When I had the
Milan Pekar 1:51:02
gallery I was in to push them to gate. Can you just say let’s go for half a year right? DEPUTY moms can Oh, we don’t have time to and
Matthew Dols 1:51:10
yeah, that’s an interesting question. How often do galleries like send you payments?
Milan Pekar 1:51:14
I had to say the depend depend on time. It’s funny to that. You’d like that item to do so. So all of a sudden? I’m sorry, say that implies that you actually like when you ask. They say, Oh, yeah, we just said last week or you know, if not, yeah, which they didn’t send your last demo, so I’m gonna say knock on wood. Yeah. Goodbye. Okay, next.
Matthew Dols 1:51:38
All right. Well, thank you very much for your time. This has been a lot of fun, very educational. I enjoyed it. Hopefully we’ll have you back again some other time.
Milan Pekar 1:51:47
Okay, thank you.
Matthew Dols 1:51:57
Thank you for listening. If you have any questions for me or any questions or comments that you want me to discuss with future guests, please send me an email at Matt at wise for pod.com Wi sefolpod.com. Ask them on our website wise for pod comm or any of our social media profiles on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at wise fool pod. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future and assisting you in gaining more understanding of the contemporary visual art market.
The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com
All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com