Transcript for Episode 002 – A-I-R Curator, Piotr Sikora, MeetFactory (Prague, CZ)

Published July 15, 2019

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-artist-residency-curator-piotr-sikora-meet-factory-in-prague-cz/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Welcome to the wise fool. I’m Matthew Dols, your host. Today my guest is Putra. She caught up a curator for artists residencies at meat factory in Prague, Czech Republic. In our discussions we touch on social media, artists, residencies, artists statements seavees, bike polo, and support networks. To pronounce your name correctly for me,

Piotr Sikora 0:44
my name is Piotr Sikora. She caught up as far as she caught us, I would say kind of easy to pronounce. My first name piata. It’s a tank breaker and yeah, I do get a lot. Peters and Peters and different variations of my name.

Matthew Dols 1:02
Yeah, I would have called you, Peter, Peter, Peter, but it would have ended up probably in a fast conversation to be Peter.

Piotr Sikora 1:10
Yeah. And I also I don’t mind it’s just just the name of the drum. Okay.

Matthew Dols 1:14
And where are you from? Where were you born and raised?

Piotr Sikora 1:17
I was born and raised in Poland, in Cracow. I lived there for till I got like 24. And then I started to move around. I was living in Warsaw for a bit I actually, I did my Erasmus in Milan, so I do have some Italian experience in my curriculum, and and then I moved to Prague five years ago. What brought me here?

Matthew Dols 1:43
Great question. That’s

Piotr Sikora 1:46
one Czech curator who is now my wife. Kareena, and

Matthew Dols 1:51
Oh, that’s interesting. So two curators in one household?

Piotr Sikora 1:54
Yes. And how does that work?

Matthew Dols 1:57
But I dated other artists, and that did not go well?

Piotr Sikora 2:01
Uh huh. I really do believe that. It’s just it’s a question of your personality rather than your occupation. I mean, with us, just we made this decision that we want work together. Not at all, because now we’re actually developing one project together. But we just tried to avoid the situation when you come together and you work together. And there’s like, too much of possibilities to interfere with each other and not find a common common language. So what? Yeah, we just try not to not to work that much together. And it works pretty fine. I mean, yeah, it’s, it’s nice, you know, all the gossips, all the artwork, gossips, you just exchange it than the daily basis and somehow,

Matthew Dols 2:49
yep, I like it. Gossip in the art world.

Piotr Sikora 2:52
Yeah. Have you ever heard of some light down the phenomenon? Like gossiping artists? No.

Matthew Dols 2:59
To me, the the art world is very stoic. They don’t talk about each other behind their backs. That’s correct. Yeah. So all right. So So you got married, and then you came here and you’re now currently working at meat factory? Which is this really really cool old? Well, it’s spelled m e t as in meetup kind of like a group meeting. But it’s it is actually an old meat factory, if I understand correctly.

Piotr Sikora 3:22
Actually, no, it’s a it’s a glass factory. And I think in 1950, something they were they basically what they did, they were producing bulbs like light bulbs for and they do have some connotation with with just Kate raha with the railway, accompany the National Railways. The first meet factor, the place where David’s journey with color, and one more member of their team met and decide to set up something like that meaning an organization, an NGO that try to you know, create a some sort of platform for art to merge to meet together, not only visual arts, but also performance and theatre and music. And they, the first, the first place they occupy was a former meat factory in Hollywood pizza. And then it started in 2001 2002. And then there was a big plot, and it has 2007, they decided we got to find a new space. And actually now in 2007, they already knew that this is going to be a new location. The former involved factory in Smith.

Matthew Dols 4:32
Okay, well, now that at least the tie the name makes a little bit more sense, because originally it was in a meat factory. Now it’s an eyeglass factory, that’s fine. Okay, and your role is primarily as a curator of their residency program, correct?

Piotr Sikora 4:45
Yep. This is what I do.

Matthew Dols 4:46
And is this your full time job or do you still do outside curatorial work?

Piotr Sikora 4:51
Well, I’m also young father so from the moment when I when I got a kid got my itself. Our boy, he’s he’s two years old now. So it’s pretty much the same time I work here, I work here for two years and a couple of months. And I have to say, like I try, I try to limit my, like professional activities after that just to have more time for my family. So this is like the third and most important thing what I do working in, in, in residences, which is fairly interesting, and really easygoing, sort of position midnight, I gotta say, but it also costs you a lot of like, you have to be super hospitable. And you really have to genuinely take care of these people, no matter whether you’re supposed to come to a place and to fix something or, or just be around with some curatorial advisors or just like show them city and get drunk at some point and get to know each other better. So sort of like an arts,

Matthew Dols 5:55
Airbnb,

Piotr Sikora 5:56
kind of, yeah, we can, we can put it like that. And actually, it’s not only me, it’s a whole team of people. Three of us, both me and Lucia kotoko, my colleague, we’re responsible for the programming so we’re responsible for whom we’re gonna invite for residency, what kind of partnership would like to establish With whom? Maybe I can elaborate on that? Please do actually, I

Matthew Dols 6:18
mean, the reason why I’m so I’m so interested to talk with you is because I know you’re very active in the curatorial realm of the region, but also the specifically residency because it’s very, there aren’t a lot of presidencies really around this region, at least. And so to be able to have a conversation with somebody who sort of curates and runs a residency, to be able to offer that to the listeners to some sort of insight on how that kind of thing runs, no matter where they live, is a very nice resource. So that’s what I’m hoping to learn mostly about the runnings of a residency, and the application process and the curatorial process itself. Things along that line. So yes, please, elaborate.

Piotr Sikora 7:01
Okay. Well, maybe we’ll start with the edges describing the rest of the team and what are our task and what we do on a daily basis. So as I mentioned, we are two curators working in the in the residencies human meat factory, not for me, but just to have a bigger image, like a better perspective on what what amount of people we’re dealing with. Throughout the year, we have around 30, up to 40 artists at the residence is what we offer, we just, we have a lot of space that we can offer as a co working space as studios. So this is like the first and most important thing and also somehow God does back to the meaning the moment when they set up me to act when they for David Shatner, who’s an artist visual artists, he just wanted to offer to artists from here, but also international artists space where they can first work on their pieces and then exhibit them. So we have at once we have up to eight artists, we give them accommodation we give them per diem. So we support them financially, and studios. Both me and Lucia were responsible for making decision who do invite what segment and what kind of partnership would like to develop with what countries and this is also

Matthew Dols 8:22
why we slow down. Let’s go back to that. So first of all, you you don’t have open calls, but you invite people because that’s a huge difference in types of residency. So, but I’ve seen some open calls you do like once a year or twice a year doing open call, but generally you do invitation.

Piotr Sikora 8:39
Yeah, well, really depends when it comes to inviting artists from abroad. Were by invitation only we do not have any open calls. And was actually already when we when we came to work here two and a half year ago, it was done like that previous curator, she decided, listen, we do not have a capacity to go through 500 portfolios and figure out who would be the 10 residents who’d like to invite for the residency and it also doesn’t maybe it doesn’t really make sense to do it like that. Maybe you’re kind of lost and humungous numbers of of people just it gets absurd. So what we do, we do have several open calls, but mainly for Czech artists going abroad. record is going

Matthew Dols 9:26
abroad. So you will sponsor Czech artists through your residency program going to other residents.

Piotr Sikora 9:31
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And we have this sort of mutual exchange because this is also how it works like we are sending Czech artists to say Strasbourg, to sack in Strasbourg and we receive one French artist who would stay with us for three months. We have this type of partnership with assignments, dimensions, Strasburg, we had the same with An art port in Tel Aviv, which is privately funded Foundation, working with contemporary art, with the exhibition space and also studios. And we do have the same with antwerpen. So every year, we just launched an open call to figure out who would like to go there and who would like to represent. So to say, Czech Republic abroad. So there were three main cooperation, partnerships, and we have another one with a place here and just so we know it’s not like now we’re getting to the point where we’re sending abroad artists we’re based in Czech Republic but they’re not checks.

Matthew Dols 10:49
I could do that.

Piotr Sikora 10:50
Yeah, you could do that again if I if

Matthew Dols 10:53
I had given the

Piotr Sikora 10:53
fork and a good enough proposal and there is we do have also does corporation with one collective called boba Hoff where they they set a connection between city of Kong in Normandy if I’m not mistaken, and not more friends. And, and we receive one artist who is coming after his her graduation, of third after diploma to stay with us for like, three, three months.

Matthew Dols 11:26
So generally, your residencies are three months in length?

Piotr Sikora 11:30
Yeah, I would say so. Most of them, they are three months, sometimes we we have curators and theoreticians who are coming for one month. And yeah, they’re also two months solution. But we’re not biggest fan of that. Because it’s just,

Matthew Dols 11:42
it really does make sense to stay here for three months or more the cultural experience, you get more of the influence on your work kind of thing. If you’re around for a little bit longer and get a little bit more of it. Of course not so going back to the invitation part. So you invite artists, how do you find artists to invite? Hmm,

Piotr Sikora 12:03
well, so we have part of our program, those are the partnerships I mentioned. So people coming through these open calls lounge within like partners institution in Strasbourg or in Tel Aviv. And then we do have around 10 artists were invited by us and then it depends

Matthew Dols 12:23
that’s the question the invaded by us. How do you find you’re invited by us foreigners? I mean, this is the big question. Yeah, I’m sitting out here as an artist, I’m not a curator I don’t I don’t have a lot of curator friends and stuff. So it’s, you know, how does an artist connect to a curator basically is the question

Piotr Sikora 12:41
well, it really depends sometimes. We did have such cases where someone just drop us an email asking my guys I have this portfolio I would love to come to Prague and be part of a residency program and ended up successfully we did have cooperation with this artists are but mostly it depends what are we there are various partners we try to cooperate with not to make arbitrary decision not to be this like curators just you know, saying, you you’re gonna be my next residency artists we rather consulted with with people who might need a residency and i’m i’m talking about partners from Prague, we do have a lot of cooperation with institutions, galleries, art collectives from Prague and say they’re coming to us asking like guys we do have this artist coming here next year for to do a show to prepare to work on the exhibition and photograph gallery or an etc gallery and it would be perfect to have this opportunity to give him a chance and stay with with you for three months we can afford to pay him a fee for for for the exhibition and transport transportation costs so and then we take care of the of the rest

Matthew Dols 14:03
interesting so you so you do so you’re not just sort of a government funded NGO sometimes you do do you do do sometimes you also work as a private public partnership basically we’re a for profit gallery might come to you and say hey, I’ve got an artist coming gotta be having an exhibition yeah so true

Piotr Sikora 14:22
yet and it also happened that your face is not saying that Yeah, because those two galleries I mentioned they were they are a project spaces rather projects I use the name gallery yet to be honest they’re also NGOs.

Matthew Dols 14:36
Yeah, I was gonna say the term gallery is thrown around very loosely here in the in this region like what where I was raised in Washington DC area. Generally like museum was defined for something that was a museum and a gallery is a generally a for profit thing, but could be a nonprofit thing but, but it’s more like a place where you could buy things was the term gallery but here like in the US now National Gallery all the time and every almost everything is referred to as a gallery. It’s very rare to find the term museum here.

Piotr Sikora 15:08
The truth is that we do not have that many museums and there is none museum or bigger institution that would be dedicated like only to the National Gallery. Well, but they have national galleries very problematic because they have so many massive collections and so many so many buildings, so many seats, seats, they try to embrace like art from medieval time from actually from, you know, ancient Greek antiquity in general, or contemporary now. And it’s, it’s a suicide mission. I mean, like, who can actually manage this amount of in that amount of space?

Matthew Dols 15:49
It’s not a massive space either. Okay, all right back to you and your curatorial stuff, so to find too, so sometimes you partner with outside organizations to invite artists here, but let’s say there’s like just so you said one time there was a random artist that just said, hey, I’ve got a project I want to come to, but let’s say devoid of that. So that so basically, how can how can an artist it’s out in the world get on your radar, basically, so make it so that you know their work for any curatorial project. And with this point, I can say either you or your wife might need to coordinate. So what’s the what’s the approach? Like how do you know like, how do artists family, how do artists find curators and get on their, in their database of knowledge? But in that way, also, how do curators get on like, museum radars? Like what how does that all happen? So just just friends of friends and contacts? Well,

Piotr Sikora 16:46
a lot of things are like I think there’s a lot of connection Frou Frou you know mingling with certain people’s thing in the circle of this people that people I mean, I would not even I don’t want to be make it sound pejorative, that it’s something bad is just the way it is. And I guess the same works for movie industry. The same works for most of the semi showbiz industries just like art, yet I do believe that art is somehow more democratic. And we do have this like idea that we can Yeah, that everyone should be included that there is like myth of extremely inclusive art community.

Matthew Dols 17:36
It’s a total myth. The

Piotr Sikora 17:39
we’re like treating like

Matthew Dols 17:39
that about ourselves cream rises to the top, the best should be the ones videos set out as an example not the mediocre, mediocre, and they just they’re not the best.

Piotr Sikora 17:52
But I’m trying will. I’m honestly trying to figure out what what would be the answer to your question, how would I get like how would artists get under my router and I maybe the good example would be when I was working on an exhibition that was my, one of my projects like side projects that were still done here in meat factory it was last year I was curating exhibition called slough squatting and its discontents. And I wanted to have a better understanding what the arts art scene in Prague is all about. So I’m now I’m saying that this is more also focused on my domestic on stuff that I know yet I wanted to get to know better. And I started to research I was just going from one gallery website to another focusing on not the gallery project space and artists run spaces. Focusing on who I kinda missed at the art scene and trying to get to the people I did not know. And they are either very young or just right after school, or I just somehow my brain capacity. I couldn’t figure out that they are they are there.

Matthew Dols 19:05
But the good thing to note to note, sort of like what the way you’re talking is that the way that you find people in this day and age more often is through the internet, through your websites, social medias, these kinds of things more often than going physically into a gallery space.

Piotr Sikora 19:23
Yes, that’s, that’s for sure.

Matthew Dols 19:26
So So basically, the idea is if somebody wants to get on the radar of a curator, you they should have an exhibition or do something sort of regionally near that curator. So the curator might just sort of be become aware of it basically kind of thing

Piotr Sikora 19:41
Yeah. I would say so and get yourself Instagram account. I think this is we like I I realize that they like to think of myself when I’m scrolling Instagram that I’m actually doing a research, which is Yeah, hard to believe. I’m not so sure whether it’s actually true but but then Keep telling yourself that it’s fine. Yeah. But still, I realized that there is a certain phenomena like when you look at that what is going on on Instagram, you can see that there are people were linked to another people and it’s just getting to the level, it’s a critical mass, you cannot really say that this is just like a circle of people mingling with each other. It’s tough. I mean,

Matthew Dols 20:23
you know, there’s, there’s the recent study that says that, like human beings were designed only to have, like, 150 people in their circle. I mean, when you go on to social media, all of a sudden, it’s like 150 million people or a billion people, like, how do you sift through all that to find like, the cream of the crop to find the best of the best, like, I can’t do it. And I mean, I’ve tried, and it’s tough, they mean, things. But not only that, but like the, the algorithms are constantly changing. But also people are changing, like they, they’ll open new accounts, because their other account was closed, or they may change their style. So they make a new game. everybody’s like, everybody’s lobbying and marketing to the they’re focusing so much on the get attention aspect that maybe, is there, is the quality getting better, or is the quality getting worse? Or is it just because we’re seeing sheer volume of it that it feels like there’s so much more

Piotr Sikora 21:19
that I still believe that in, in the artwork, and I think in every smaller community in turn, like smaller community, I’m not talking about countries or you know, like regions, but yeah, let’s say people from the arts, that Facebook especially it works pretty, or any kind of social media, it works pretty fine. I mean, you can really communicate and once it’s, it’s getting too big, too massive than that, you can see that there is no quality. I also have a comparison with even a smaller and more hermetic group of people. I happen to play this discipline number sport that is quite Yeah, it’s it’s still not very popular. It’s called bike polo. I don’t know if you heard of it.

Matthew Dols 22:14
No, it’s like, Polo on bikes.

Piotr Sikora 22:17
Yeah. So imagine like you have on one side, you had this like British aristocrat riding on a horse playing Polo. And then you have the bike messenger from Seattle, the origin, the place of the origin of hardcourt bike polo. And this is more or less the, yeah, you can get the image who is the bike polo players? More like? Yeah,

Matthew Dols 22:39
tattooed long hair? Yeah, gotcha.

Piotr Sikora 22:41
This kind of entered by messengers. Yeah. So and when I observe how social media works within a group of bipolar players, which is also very limited, it’s like in Czech Republic, you have 2025 people who are playing bipolar it’s there is no Federation, there’s no there are rules but of course, there is there is no business yet included in this and it’s very bike punk spirit, so to say, and I see that Facebook works fantastic for for this like, in order to communicate, to share events to to organize, say, a tournament, this place or another place to fundraise your your trip to Australia, because there is a next world champion in Australia and you do not have money that you know that you’re going to win this tournament. So we got to go, and your friends will actually fundraise you. And this, I think it’s it’s interesting, just to see how in a smaller circle of people, social media might work just fine. But we’re kind of drifting from the

Matthew Dols 23:45
well, no, but okay, but that that idea of like a support network that’s being created by social media is fabulous. But do you feel like that actually happens for artists, because I feel like it’s almost the opposite happens for artists, but in general, my position is very pessimistic, I know. But my position is basically, when an artist goes out in public and puts up their artwork, everybody wants them to fail. A and B, nobody wants to help them succeed. They don’t care. It’s a it’s a solo practice. You do it by yourself. It’s not like a team sport, like, like Mike Polo. It’s a solo practice. And basically, nobody, nobody cares if you may, if you succeed, and nobody is going to help you. Like literally the only person is going to help you is you and your own loved ones. And maybe a very, very tight little knit group, but like that’s about as far as it’s gonna go. So like I feel like social media doesn’t actually create that support network that it does for other things such as, you know, your bike polo kind of

Piotr Sikora 24:44
idea. Well, but when it comes to information, I think it’s a fabulous way how to share information also, when I say open calls, as I mentioned, we do not have open call for international artists to come here by We often use platforms such as, like lube up, or Nita, or I’m sorry

Matthew Dols 25:07
to say that one more time,

Piotr Sikora 25:08
it’s a French, it’s a French group on Facebook, I mean, it’s, it has a French name, the clap of opportunities. And I think you could find that if you just type it there. It’s around 3000 people just sharing information about every open call. And it’s also very inclusive. So you can just, you know, click join and, and get in and get some information about all type of

Matthew Dols 25:33
Ohio find that and put it in the description of this podcast,

Piotr Sikora 25:36
I can send some more I I’m some more groups that I know that and most of them, they are also not most of them, they have this restriction that you’re not supposed to post any information, where you’re, you’re supposed to pay for it. Like you’re not there’s no paid residencies. But I

Matthew Dols 25:58
mean, and that’s an issue too, that keeps coming up. Because, like, I look around at, you know, I’ll sit down, okay, I’m an artist, I’ve got a full time job I’m working. And then on top of that, I’ve got to enter competitions and enter residency calls and enjoys and the amount of work and time and effort and then on top of that money that I have to spend, whether it’s an entry fee, or you know, sometimes like you’ll even enter a residency and then and get down the line and then suddenly, they go, Oh, by the way, you have to pay for XYZ that we didn’t tell you about. Like, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s sort of soul draining sometimes. I mean, certainly financial draining, because I mean, we constantly there’s there are exponentially more competitions, as far as like, just like, you know, just exposure kind of competitions, and x MNC feels like exponentially more residencies that exist in the world, but many of them seem to have set themselves up as for profit or money earning scenarios. Now, you all don’t do that you everything you do is sponsored or paid for by either. I know the city of Prague gives a good amount of money. Yes. And you all have other sponsors, how else do you all get funded? We

Piotr Sikora 27:14
were just we’re applying for from 15 to 20, different sources, different institutions to get our, our budget kind of done. So we do have support from the Ministry of Culture and human Prague. Here in Czech Republic, we do have support from the city of Prague, we have this like long lasting grant for years grant. We have to put every and everything we print in meat factory, we do have the obligation to put information about about the exact amount of money they are giving us does vary year round, so there’s so many zeros. They’re like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

Matthew Dols 27:51
yeah, I saw that recently. The I think it was, I think it was the thing I was here for last night that at the bottom of it. It’s a 10 million check rounds from Ministry of whatever I’m like. That that’s a lot of money for just that one thing, but it’s not fair. The one thing it’s it’s your general operating budget, right?

Piotr Sikora 28:07
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 28:09
But But dude, but do you get corporate sponsorships? Or are you staying with only sort of the Okay, no corporate sponsors. So you’re already sort of government and not NGO relations,

Piotr Sikora 28:19
kind of thing, work with cooperative various foundation that have the goals and setting some sort or support some cooperation, international cooperation, say, between Germans and Czechs there’s this Czech German fund of the future.

And loads of different embassies Institute, French Institute, Cervantes Polish Institute. So that’s I wish cultural

Matthew Dols 28:54
exchange programs kind of like cultural exchange programs is very common, mostly mostly EU related, not too many outside of you. However, we

Piotr Sikora 29:03
also had Israel, like long lasting cooperation with the American Embassy just yesterday,

Matthew Dols 29:10
because but that was with the previous ambassador, then.

Piotr Sikora 29:14
I think we will we still had one project one ongoing project near 2017. So that will not do 18 last year. So I don’t know what what’s up with that. But yeah, I mean, the politics are just always going for worse than worse. So maybe we can even can skip that. Luckily, we do have like generous people and the whole granting system here in Prague, it’s fairly it’s just okay, it’s really they they, they support bigger institution, they support smaller institution when your project space that runs already for two years, you can apply for a grant and get to up to I don’t know $10,000 euros, yes to just to have you know, just to Have some basic money to rent a space and, and their various.

Matthew Dols 30:05
I mean, but that’s pretty, pretty substantial. I mean, there are lots of places in the world I’m thinking specifically, like the Americas. And even you know, I’ve lived in the Middle East also, like there, there not a lot of places that support of the arts. In this way outside of like the EU, I mean, the EU seems to be sort of the most financially supportive place I’ve ever found. For The Arts period. It’s just, it’s ingrained in their in their history, their their culture like that they should support the art that it’s a primary part of it. I mean, here in Prague, it’s a primary part because glass and Garnet and the ceramics and all the the cultural historical stuff here have become a tourist part of the tourist industry as well, which now of course, is bleeding over into contemporary art and contemporary design, and also these other things that are becoming touristic reasons to come to Prague. So therefore them investing in the arts basically, is an investment in getting more tourists here.

Piotr Sikora 31:10
I think still, at the moment, this is my idealistic approach to it. But from what I’ve heard, when, when I was doing my research in the very beginning, when I still was based in Cracow, I want really badly wanted to move to Prague, because it’s so beautiful, so liberal, liberal, etc, etc. So discovered, the important change happened important. How to name and yeah, just just the chain change for a better happen here in Prague in the second decade of 21st century when artists and people and curators, young curators, young ambitious, curators, art workers, art professionals, they made a huge impact on both municipality and and Ministry of Culture, they were protesting against certain procedures, and they really fight for the right to apply for money to have more and more money from the budget.

Matthew Dols 32:12
And I don’t know anything about this, I just moved here a year and a half ago. So this is good. I like

Piotr Sikora 32:17
this. Yeah, this is, this is something very unique. And I think that was back then quite progressive. And nowadays, this is what we need to do, especially in countries of, you know, vicia corrupt countries or central Eastern European countries where power is clearly not in your favor, they they want to get rid of you or just make you do some some right wing, whatever populist artworks that, of course, never gone, never going to happen. And so I think it’s always a matter of negotiation, and just claiming your rights and asking for more. Also, in terms of money, because after all, this is not something you’re just you know, this is not to feed the monkey, but really to be able to live out of what you are doing. And I find that somehow, when I compare, you know, this easy comparison, Poland and Czech Republic, there’s so many points of connection, there’s so many similarities, there’s such a massive differences. And yet, I gotta say, like, when you when you take a look at orso Gallery scene, and I’m talking about commercial galleries, you have around 20 galleries, that are trying to make money out of what they’re doing, representing artists selling going to art fairs. It’s completely different approach than what you see here in Prague, where you have around 30 project spaces and on the top of that you have seven commercial galleries and it’s very specific numbers. So they’re really only seven commercial galleries. I would say So yeah, I think that I might be wrong because it is just a couple of days ago, one guy decide, I’m gonna do art business. I’m into art business, or another

Matthew Dols 34:02
guy decided I’m out.

Piotr Sikora 34:03
But yeah, I think there are around seven commercial galleries the oldest one is hunter and Costner. And they, they I just once I wrote text and I was especially like, particularly, what are the difference between poles and Czechs? When it comes to art scene and also why trying to answer this this question, why do we have so many projects bases and so few galleries and in Poland, it’s just upside down. So and this is it mainly it is because support you can get here allows you to live on what like I know so many artists doing different type of work running and gallery, being editor at artichoke platform or working for ArcMap this you know the mapple running a podcast running about like, this is somehow I don’t know if you necessarily need to be represented by a gallery and and sell your works and to be able to support yourself of course. This is like an ideal dream, but maybe it’s it’s not valid anymore. Maybe this is engine x.

Matthew Dols 35:19
I love that. Yeah, this is this is what i didn’t i don’t know if i told this to you, but like, but the the intention of the podcast is a two fold thing I have what I what I’m calling that my quantifiable results and my qualify of quantum quality results. So the quantifiable results is I’m going to ask you later on and I ask every guest, what I want to have a piece of my artwork exhibited in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City, what is your recommendation for something I should do to put me on that path? So that’s not a qualitative or quantitative thing. But qualitative is is that I want to try and figure out how in this day and age with all the different formats so the the the project spaces, the NGOs, the for profit galleries, the museums, the curators, the collectors, the the online, the social media, the website, like, how can creative people, so I don’t care whether it’s artists, or curators or gallery owners or whoever, but how can people make a living? I’m not looking for like, how do we become Andy Warhol? and and you know, like, the big you know, how do we become Sachi? And then the bigger the bigs, but like, just to make sure that we all are happy, like we get enough money, and we get enough support to be able to do what we want to do without being fearful of not having enough money for our bills next month, basically. How could What are you what what’s on your what’s in your mind? Like, what’s, how has it changed, like you say, like websites and social media is helping and maybe, maybe things are transitioning.

Piotr Sikora 36:55
They also believe that united we stand divided we fall or we

Matthew Dols 37:03
don’t, we’re not united.

Piotr Sikora 37:05
But if you want to be okay, let’s eliminate this category, successful artists. But if you want to make make your living from art, I think it’s necessary that you know, that you’re a part of the community that you know, other people who are dealing with the same as you do, were part of the art scene. And then

Matthew Dols 37:25
that’s what this podcast is trying to do is to try to unite these, these people, because like, we’re all sitting in our studios, or our offices or whatever going, like, I want to do this, but I don’t know how to do that. I want to connect with these people. I want to meet a curator, I want a curator to find my work. How do I do that? You know, I want to apply for a residency, how do I do that? So like, I’ve listened to a bunch of podcasts. And unfortunately, they fall into a couple different categories for me, which is either they’re sort of telling me how to make a living. Like they’re, they’re saying, like, Oh, you need to follow these step by step instructions. Or they’re just sort of introduction level, like, it’s just like, Oh, you know, to try to get a gallery, you got to put together a nice portfolio. Like we all know that like that’s too basic. Or, on the other end of the spectrum, it’s like way too institutional, like they’re sitting there like theorizing about cons and Friday, and it’s too too, too intellectual to our psyche, Art speaky. Either or tutorial where they’re telling me what to do, which is I’m not asking my guests to tell me how to do it. But I’m asking for the guests to like, be involved, like, figure out how can we all be a little bit more involved? How can we come together with with, like, your knowledge is great. And I’m gonna ask another curator, probably the same questions I’m asking you, and they’ll probably give me a different answer. And then it’s up to the person listening and me, you know, whoever’s listening to make up their own mind which one they they like think is probably more appropriate for them? Thing is, there’s no perfect answer for anybody in the creative industry. So the question is, how many different options of like, how many different answers can I get to try and find the one that’s most right for any one person? So that makes sense.

Piotr Sikora 39:19
Does I think that Yeah, I

Matthew Dols 39:22
guess it was very long winded,

Piotr Sikora 39:23
I apologize. There is this Latin saying I won’t be able to bring it now. But the the examples are the one we should follow. Like the examples are important. So I think that if you have several examples, several,

Matthew Dols 39:40
yeah, basically, one person doesn’t have the absolute knowledge, like the perfect knowledge or anybody else in the arts industry. I mean, maybe it’s it holds true in accounting, or law or doctors or whatever. Like maybe there are perfect ways to do those industries. But in the arts industry, there’s not because we’re all so individual that we Have to make it our own. So trying to find Yeah, like get like three to five different things and try and find a nice average something that we feel comfortable with from all the different outcomes.

Piotr Sikora 40:15
Also, something that crossed my mind just now I was with me mentioned, it’s important that you’re part of the scene that there is you have people who would support you in this way or another, of course, we’re all individuals. But yeah, but we go to school, which is structure where you where you have to socialize, where you have, where you’re making friends and all this. And yesterday, we just had opening here and meat factory and I, I see all the time, people who are working here, just like you know, right before the opening there just need an extra pair of hands who people who are willing to work. And most of them they’re coming from either Art Academy in but now or from Prague, sometimes it happens that they’re already they’re not at school anymore. They’re not the students. They’re really artists and their I don’t know, in their 30s and wow, apparently they are quite successful there. They need some money even though like they are they, they sell works once every while, but they still come here to to work to just get this silly job. Just you know, paint the wall. It’s

Matthew Dols 41:29
a sense of community. Like I love doing that kind of stuff. Like I mean, I love coming in. Yeah, repainting the walls, sanding the walls, painting the walls, you know, redoing the floors, prepping it with the gallery for another exhibition, like, it is a nice sense of community. But it doesn’t feel like that’s as common now. Maybe here in meat factory, there is this great sense of community. But it doesn’t feel like that’s common in most places. Well, I

Piotr Sikora 41:53
think the it’s quite common for for Prague, because we, after all, this this conditions that I was saying, it’s so great. You can make your living this way. You don’t have to be part of the gallery. But still, we’re living in Super precarious condition. And maybe I’m so enthusiastic about it. Because I’m, you know, 32 and I have a full time job. But what is going to happen when I got to be 52. And there won’t be any source of money for my

Matthew Dols 42:23
retirement. You’re 32. With with full full insurance, I’m sure as well like national insurance, health insurance. Yeah. Which is a big issue for artists in other parts of the world. Like I mean, in America, I could not afford having insurance. There’s as a practicing artist, that’s just far too expensive. But here, of course, there’s national healthcare. So that’s very nice.

Piotr Sikora 42:46
That’s not something I value definitely. And but, yeah, so there’s always I think there are always options how to how to make your living in an art system that is somehow based on that it’s not so competitive, that it’s not based on the market, but it’s more based on the money coming from the taxpayers. After all, I know that there it’s like this approach is super different from for instance, what is going on in in us, but it’s just making a decision whether your whole economy, our economy is based on the private funds or whether it’s state support.

Matthew Dols 43:33
Okay, well, let’s take it back a step. So let me I want to understand this. So like, Okay, so here at meat factory, you are, let’s, let’s say, reasonably well supported by the municipalities and the government. Yes. What kind of do they give you certain guidelines, like, like, I’m thinking back, like, I used to work at some museums and stuff in the in the United States. And like, they would say, like, oh, we’ll invest as much money in this thing, because we’re expecting this many visitors and we expect, like this demographic, and we, you know, blah, you know, they had like, quantifiable goals that they intended to achieve. And like, basically, they when they got grants from certain organizations, they were expected to meet these criteria that they laid out. Do you have the same kind of like, does the municipality sort of put the same kind of stuff on you as well? Sure, sure. Sure, sure. What kind of things are they they are they asking like quantity quality, like geographical location, like supporting people from certain areas?

Piotr Sikora 44:34
Well, first of all there you need to present you need to have your own like your your whole project ready and apply with the right the project and the indicators

Matthew Dols 44:48
in so that might be the word for what I’ve done. I

Piotr Sikora 44:50
guess I’m always lost in this bureaucracy. So I’m not I’m not the first person to probably speak about it. But yeah, you Do you need to have a certain media presence? You need to have cover from this TV and that TV and it’s all you know, it’s not them who are saying listen now you have to you know get the get to know people from eternus because the babouche owns it and he’s the Prime Minister you need to get this medium to you know, talk about what what what’s going on in meat factory or any other project space or gallery space. It’s not like that you have you just you it’s your it’s it’s a new to decide who or what what kind of media you want to work with. And since we do have four different dramaturgy is human meat factory with music department with residences, gallery, space, and theater. So it happens very often that we have different media covering different events here, and we need you we need to do this. And of course, that leads you to not only a media presence, but also having people over just visitors, numbers of visitors, this is something that they need to know. And other than that, I think we can pretty much operate with these sources with the support the way we like it. Sometimes it’s more specific, like we cooperate with ido, which has its dividend stuff instead of development stuff I’m not sure what is the English translation of their name, yet they are much more focused on supporting artists coming from countries such as Georgia West so called Eastern Partnership like Ukraine, Russia, Indonesia, they were willing to, you know, cover ticket for from from Jakarta to Prague. That was, that was huge support, especially that. And this is one disadvantage. We do not support travel costs. Or we rarely support it. Because this is something also this is like the when you think about fundraising, your art project, finding money to support your trip to support your ticket is the easiest way you can do to get it from local national institute like polishes that you are to get it through some foundation. It seems like I know for myself, traveling to Georgia, and back open society Foundation was willing to pay me interesting travel costs.

Matthew Dols 47:36
Alright, so back to curatorial practices. So like when so let’s go through sort of the process of what you do here at meat factory. So there will be let’s let’s take the open call one, because that’s probably the sort of the most common for everybody else that has to is listening. So an open call would be sent out, there would be certain criteria people would send stuff in. And then then you do what? Like so what’s your step by step process of going through the whole thing?

Piotr Sikora 48:06
Well, first of all, maybe it would be good to also mention that we try to limit the amount of text in the open column motivation letter, we wanted to make it somehow shorter. And, and just to make it more sufficient not to, not not to be not to have these long letters love letters, you live in two to 500

Matthew Dols 48:30
words, I think, or 500 characters 500 words,

Piotr Sikora 48:33
words, actors would be big. Thanks. Really, really badly want to go? That’s it? Well, 500 characters Really? No, no 500 words. Okay, we have 500 words, of course. And but people are not willing to keep it. That shorts and but that doesn’t really matter. It’s just that we did not want to have. And it’s those long motivation letters,

Matthew Dols 49:02
which okay, right there for a second, though, let me let me digress a little bit. So like, I work for lens culture, calm and do reviews online for them. And every day, I’m looking at artists portfolios, where I’m seeing images and sometimes text, sometimes non text. And I’m constantly having to say like, if the text is important, you need text. And the text needs to be this and this and this and this. And I realized, I’ve been doing this for them for three years. And I sat back and I said, Yeah, I don’t know if the recommendations I’m giving them are correct. Like, I’m not, I’m not the person, the curator on the other end, reading them or looking at them and making any judgment calls. I’m a participant, I’m an artist, looking at another artist saying like, Oh, I wish it was more like this because we connect better with me. So the question is for you when you receive a portfolio of artwork and some text, partly How important is the text? How important is The portfolio the ordering of the portfolio, the the flow, the portfolio, the tax, the relationship of the tax, is it incredibly important? like would you completely just if somebody had stunning portfolio, and a horrible taxed? Would you just be like, No, I’m not doing it? Or is there some trade off in there?

Piotr Sikora 50:26
Well, yeah, I, I do believe that we’re all dealing with arts and we are particularly sensitive toward visual material. So I think the I could accept situation when the motivation letter is just crap and and portfolio, it’s incredible. And I really can see that okay, this guy or this, this artist, she are

Matthew Dols 50:50
gender specific, no

Piotr Sikora 50:51
gender specific at all. So this artist she went through, she had this residency somewhere, okay, she had this where you are looking at your CV? So the CV is important. I would Yeah, there is at some point, I definitely would have a look at the CV and just just, you know, first to know what school she graduated from. And then yeah, just to have a better understanding what kind of

Matthew Dols 51:20
okay, just on a basic sort of structural format of the CV to try and help anybody mean is what what’s the most important thing of a CV and sort of going down in hierarchy. So most important school,

Piotr Sikora 51:31
Malini, I think that the two information that I’m always looking at, when it comes to CV as education, and then the history of exhibitions from last two years, three years, maybe last two or three times don’t get me things from 210 2010 because it’s just like, doesn’t make any sense to me, at least. And I know, I know this kind of weird enthusiasm you have when you’re just putting down all the information in your, in your CV new thinking, like, Oh, my God, that looks

Matthew Dols 52:05
so great. like you’d like 10 pages long. It’s fabulous.

Piotr Sikora 52:09
And it’s it’s fantastic that you do believe it’s like that, I don’t think that any other person but you would share this and because I remembered this for myself, like putting together my first CV and thinking like, Oh my god, this is decent. And then no one would respond to any of my emails for it. So it’s a I think this is completely unnecessary to just overload overload your your your CV with information.

Matthew Dols 52:43
Like let’s say there’s a another another meat factory in Brno or anywhere Vienna, Paris, whatever their criteria for why they choose the residents to come to them is going to be different. Because their their culture, their community is different. So what are some of the characteristics that you look for when you’re choosing a an artist to be a resident at me factoring?

Piotr Sikora 53:09
I think it depends on what sort of project we’re also choosing him her to be part of. And yeah, maybe I should specify, we have this partnerships. And this is pretty open doesn’t really matter when you’re making whether you’re making sound art, I want to say sound art, but both me and luthier we do not really like sound art somehow. So

Matthew Dols 53:36
don’t you do? Well, it’s not that you don’t like it, it’s that you don’t use them, we don’t have the resources to really pull it off. Well, here like you don’t have beautiful soundproof rooms, you don’t have the correct recording equipment amplification equipments. I mean, it’s not that you don’t want it or like it, it’s that you simply don’t have the resources to offer it to the public and to the artist as as well as they would like it.

Piotr Sikora 53:58
I think it’s simply we’re sitting next to next to shape, a platform catalog. This is music department domain, they are dealing with all sorts of music and sound art and sound installation, they are more into this. What we do more mostly is the visual arts. So from painting sculpture, like oldest traditional media, installation, performance, performance as well. So yeah, we keep it very open. And we this is all about the mutual cooperation. So this is one part one big chunk of our program, then we have residencies that are more specifically oriented toward one topic and we have this big, ongoing program called the new Dictionary of old ideas, which is just that which is all about identity politics and central Eastern European region. We started last year with a bunch of other institution most of the independence or to say institutions, the ones that are not subsidized by the, by the country. They’re not part of this national network, which we kicked off this platform, we’re simply giving an opportunity for four residents from each partner, organization to come here and stay with us for overall, six months, I believe. So you have two artists coming here, each one of them for two months, and two curators coming for one month. And that was Yeah, that was specifically oriented on artists were somehow working within the political realm of art or just in making art that is fairly about history, politics, about identity politics, about about the region. And it can be, yeah, no, no medium specified. And then we have dance studio dance and choreography studio. That speaks for itself, I guess, with the ballet floor with it’s a beautiful, super clean studio, we have studios, where we, we offered them to someone who we know that will cause a lot of mess, just you know, dirty proper artists work. So hardcore studio studio practice. Next year, we’re going to kick off this food studio where I mean, this that was my idea. So I pursue it as a platform where people will meet each other mostly people from Central Eastern Europe and from Southeast Asia and East Asia. And use food as a medium to communicate as as, as the thing that can actually connect you and and I also want to keep it somehow low profile not to you know, think about the whole history of food or the the politics of the food but food as a really connecting element or something. So

Matthew Dols 57:09
like what they talk about on Chef’s Table in on Netflix. Yeah, yeah. It’s great.

Piotr Sikora 57:15
See, I then I say mentioned, we have several artists coming here. With recommendation from different partners here in Prague. This is also something that we really like because when you’re when you’re you know, you got to offer to exhibit somewhere say in Budapest and then your invitation was followed by another invitation from institution from Budapest institution saying that we know about your your exhibition and now we’d like to you know, expand it and give you a two months residency. So you can work on your show you have everything paid and all that stuff. And if you have if you have capacity and time capacity to deal with most of the people who are coming here they’re really using it as a production space where they can produce the work where they can Yeah, I’ll do a bit of a research how their work also responds to the local audience and I think this is something that we value highly because this is that’s the type of residency where you really getting somehow the connection to the to proc because first you’re coming here to work on the show. There will be something that remain after your time here you will have to come here again to take it down or just for another event and it’s it does make sense you’re always in touch with this place there is a residence you get to know people

Matthew Dols 58:42
just just as a little final finishing point on the residency part. Do all residents have exhibitions here? Is that sort of a nature so that’s not mandatory? No.

Piotr Sikora 58:52
We have too many residents we would have to throw 40 shows or 30 shows a year that would be impossible. What we do have though, it’s the open studios event so once every three months we have open studios where all the studios are open you can you can travel you can take a journey through all the studios speak to the artists mostly it’s also there a lot of collateral events like performances and we have also our permanent artists who are willing to participate in permanent residence which is there’s only one permanent resident but

Matthew Dols 59:33
during the during the open studio are things for sale Can people come and purchase stuff? Is that a thing or is to change it to exhibit just to show just

Piotr Sikora 59:42
mostly Yeah, it’s to to exhibit not to keep it super exclusive and not to provide some some sort of contact with the with the space. I mean, and I bet I don’t think it’s really happening someday. We had some artists who, for instance, who produced a book, and then you can buy a book for like 50 crowns or something like that

Matthew Dols 1:00:07
very cheap book.

Piotr Sikora 1:00:08
But it’s worse than mine. It’s a coloring book. Okay, yeah. Those, but I think they’re not in the whole tradition of collecting art here in Czech Republic it’s there’s not such a thing really. It’s not a big phenomenon. And I think that 40 years of communism destroyed all the elites and and people are not so willing to you know, when they’re even when they’re new, new verage they’re not like super eager to buy art. I was recently at the concert of Backstreet Boys. Do you know Backstreet Boys?

Matthew Dols 1:00:47
Yeah, my wife friend, actually. Yeah,

Piotr Sikora 1:00:49
yep. Did she like it?

Matthew Dols 1:00:51
She did. She was the absolutely She. She was all the way up at the podium. Like they paid the extra for the nice seats and everything organized standing area. Nice. Yeah. Not my generation. I’m a little older than that. Uh huh.

Piotr Sikora 1:01:04
Yeah, generation speak is a well, it was I understand that. We’re, we’re, time is passing. We’re getting older. And there were no kids. I thought that it will be like a lot of teenagers following Backstreet Boys. Now, looking into Kevin Spacey, not just 30 years old,

Matthew Dols 1:01:22
people reliving their youth.

Piotr Sikora 1:01:25
So well, but I was just thinking like how that these guys probably they making such such an amount of money that at some point, they would start to think about, what are we gonna do with those empty walls, we need to buy some art. And I just think it’s doesn’t really happen here in Czech Republic, the rich people they either they have better taste or for sure there are there are few very generous collectors. But but I think it’s not part of of the art world that you would have collectors who are redirect, you know, follow for Halloween, what do you do see their role as supporters. And

Matthew Dols 1:02:06
I’ve run into that a few times. It’s spoken with a few people already. And they’ve said, they use terms like like the collector, the collector’s market is not sort of mature, kind of like it’s just there aren’t enough of them. They’re not well educated enough about like, what is good art and what’s worth collecting, and kind of things like this, like so there. It’s just, you know, partly that the collectors are not up to that, that high standard of like, let’s say a London collector, or Paris collector Berlin collector. So it’s just not there yet. But it’s always yet. It’s not safe, not going to be there. But it’s going to take probably another 2030 years to get the culture to the point where they start or not start but like before, they’re sort of at that equivalent level. Because Because a lot of the people I talked to it’s, it’s interesting how in the Czech Republic, they’re very Czech centric, like you all is you focus more on Czech artists and supporting Czech artists and taking Czech artists and sending them around the world to experience other cultures. But what about what about bringing artists from other cultures to the Czech Republic? I mean, most of the this is not used specifically, but most of the galleries and stuff locally, they seem to only carry Czech and Slovak artists and that’s it and they just don’t even stock other artists. I’m not asking you to give an opinion on that because you’re not in that that specific world. But it’s interesting how the it’s very Czech centric is the easiest way I can phrase it. But

Piotr Sikora 1:03:38
on the other hand i don’t know i was in Madrid a couple of months ago when there was a stumper Art Fair. There’s this big arco art fair, but and then there is a stamp art or for mostly for art for a galleries from from Madrid from from Spanish context and can be but this is not the best example but they were also like fairly Ebro centric,

Matthew Dols 1:04:09
nationalistic basically like me. Yeah, I’m not I don’t know if it’s a bad thing or a good thing. Maybe it’s great and I just don’t understand it.

Piotr Sikora 1:04:17
I just I guess it’s a I guess it’s a question of a market that when collectors are coming to the gallery, they want to they want to support their art, like they want to support check artists because their checks and

Matthew Dols 1:04:27
and that’s a very, that’s a term that I hear a lot is basically I want to support Czech artists, whether it’s a gallery owner, curator or collector, they all say I want to support Czech artists and that is fabulous. I wish I was a Czech artist. that’s a that’s a great thing. Maybe my my child will be like that and so that they can get supported.

Piotr Sikora 1:04:46
I guess you know, this is also something that I would like to strongly support is the presence of international artists here not just as the residents but as people who decide to move here and just pursue a career in And in Czech Republic and we already kinda used to it because there are so many Slovaks living here, so many artists from Slovakia moving here, so many artists who just decided to come here for four studies. Yeah, okay, I definitely wanted to bring one, one text to the table, something that I find quite important. And yet to have a better understanding of what is what, how you can provide yourself a decent living in within with an art community, there is this text, dark matter of art by Gregory sholud where he’s trying, you know, to make a comparison to this division, there is 1% that owns everything and, you know, one, one ring to rules is all like, do we know it from from Lady Gaga? If there’s only one person that believes in you, okay, I’m making too many anecdotes, let’s get back to Gregory shall lead. based on statistics, and on his research, he specified that there are 4% and that 4% from people from from the art world, they’re actually able to pay their bills with what they’re doing 4% against 96, hobbyists 9096

Matthew Dols 1:06:23
of that 4% only 1% of them will ever be a household name.

Piotr Sikora 1:06:28
Or even less so. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:06:30
So like 100% 4% and of the 4% extended out to 100% 1% of those will make become a household name. So yeah, we were told this when I went to grad school like but they rounded it, they said they said 5%

Piotr Sikora 1:06:45
instead of four, but, you know, this is the it’s not a conclusion of his text is just the beginning where it’s just trying to deconstruct this, this, this concept and figure out how we can you know, develop certain certain critique and what, what would be the means, what would what can we do about it, and he’s describing several groups of artists, mostly art collectives. I think there are only art collectives in his text, who are using internet to rethink the concept of outer ship who died. Unfortunately, I’m not able now to bring any names from these collectives. I think that Beck’s is not that long and you can find it online the dark matter of art

Matthew Dols 1:07:41
and we’ve got a link to that in the description of the podcast it’s

Piotr Sikora 1:07:44
just an A great inspiration and also a some sort of guide how to what kind of practices you can develop when you don’t want to be part of the art market or you have certain suspicious or word the art market and you just one to figure out like alternative options alternative techniques and think about your work as subversive art that deals in one way or another with the with the system that has already been established that is already existing so yeah, this that that was something that inspired me also to rethink my own position as I mentioned before being a curator wasn’t always the super easy this is actually my dream job and I had to go through a lot to to get to the point where I am what what kind of training Did you have What school did you go to school for

Matthew Dols 1:08:46
being a curator art history all that

Piotr Sikora 1:08:48
Yeah, I did art history five years program were no we were before the Boolean Boolean golf program where you have three years and then you know bachelor and then you go for master. So, I was not able to do it, it was super conservative very boring studies and from the second year of my studies, I start to apply for internship and I was working in one gallery then in the not a gallery gallery gallery commercial galleries

Matthew Dols 1:09:19
they love in terms of free employees, yes, they do they will use them and feed them up and spit them out.

Piotr Sikora 1:09:27
Unfortunately, this is this is true. And yeah, and then I had step by step I decided I want to be a curator and I had the opportunity to work freelance I was working also in one one institution, our I got brutally kicked out. But already there I was able to establish certain international connection as a part of my programming. My idea how this should be run. What What kind know, what kind of partnership we’d like to have. And the first one and only partnership we had was with proc. And that was the, my chance to see how exactly I’m like how things are run here, and what the what are the major differences, how procard scenesse, better than Polish or worse, and but, you know, I just wanted to explore it better. And then at some point, I realized I got to move here. But I think it’s also you know, it’s a Czech Republic, it’s a word stream of every Polish this maybe I’m getting, we’re

Matthew Dols 1:10:35
actually actually I was gonna ask you that, at some point or another after this is done, I was hoping to get some recommendations of some people in Poland to go talk to and have on the podcast as well. So hopefully, you have some recommendations of some people there. And I’ll take a trip over there and do that. Because my next step is Berlin, after I’m gonna do, I’m gonna do a number of these in Prague. And I’m going to go to Berlin and it might go to Warsaw and Mowgli and Amsterdam, and then Paris and London, and so on. Because I want the podcast, I want to not be Prague centric. I mean, I’m starting in Prague, just because it’s easiest because I live here. But I want to be sure to include as far reaching and as many diverse inputs as I can this whole idea of basically learning how the art world works, because it’s so different everywhere. Like, everywhere you go, they give you different inputs on like, Oh, yes, you should do this. Oh, this is important to like, if I were probably to go to Paris, they would probably say that on the CV, oh, I want to see everything you’ve ever done. I want it to be 10 pages long and all this. Versus you. You don’t want all that. Yeah, it’s interesting that you’re here also. Okay. Back to your curatorial work, freelance curatorial work. I’ve heard this is new to me. I had never heard of this before, just recently that for profit galleries hire curators to come in and curate exhibitions. Yes, I mean, I’ve heard of that before. Now. Generally, I know it is basically the gallery would pay a flat fee to a curator. And they would just curate the the artists works or the group show or whatever it is. But now I’ve been hearing that there’s a different thing where instead of a flat fee to a curator, they actually give a percentage of the sales to the curator. Is that true?

Piotr Sikora 1:12:20
It happens to me once Yes. But it was also very specific because always so I had this gallery I was working with or like three years in in Warsaw, it was great moment and at the art scene in Warsaw, because all of a sudden you had more and more galleries. The number wasn’t 20 as it is now. But it’s 10. Quite a lot of buyers quite a lot of collectors, too. It was a super. That was that was the time of prosperity. That doesn’t really matter mattered for me back then, because I was I was paid to rather I was underpaid. I was not able to

Matthew Dols 1:12:58
make I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of anybody in the arts going. I was overpaid. No, no, it just doesn’t happen. But

Piotr Sikora 1:13:06
But having said that, I yeah, I had a big sentiment for this gallery. And I had the chance to curate their an exhibition. After it’s five years that I left it and I came back to Warsaw and I was working on the on the shoulder, I knew that I wanted to get any any money for any curatorial fee for my work, but the gallery owner, she offered me this deal that whenever something is gonna get sold, you can have and did that work. Was that

Matthew Dols 1:13:41
beneficial to you? Did it work? And it basically, it sold one piece. Okay. So I mean, that’s the question is like, I mean, everybody keeps trying to come up with new creative ways to make it so people try to make money so that people want to continue to work in the arts and, and people feel feel like they’ve been treated well and all this. And so they keep coming up with these, like new schemes, basically, to try and figure these things out. And this one was new to me this idea that a curator would come in and be paid off of the Commission on the sales like, to me a curator is a pure, they’re a pure thing. They’re untainted. They’re there they are, they are like the most the most innocent of ideals is a curator. And they come in with their, their blind beliefs and their optimism, and they have nothing to do with money or, or museum attendance or any they don’t care about any of that. They’re just all about beautiful exhibition period. Quality works. That’s my vision of a curator. I’m not a curator, but that’s my outsiders vision of a curator. And then this idea that curators are basically being given a percentage of sales to me feels like it’s tainting that

Piotr Sikora 1:14:54
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I don’t think it’s, it’s okay because then you’re you You know somehow you’d like the idea of selling some works and making making money out of it and then you start to instead of being curator being a curator you you’re going to become a dealer and why would I get a percentage if I can sell it on my own from artist studio and you know all this temptation rises and it just doesn’t make any any sense if you want to be a dealer via dealer like you can be a well educated dealer with best days working from time to time as a curator and not curator who who’s just you know, like selling some stuff from his from from his garage sale or Okay,

Matthew Dols 1:15:39
I’m on your side on that. I thought it was a very weird thing when I heard it that the curators were being paid a percentage of sales in gallery galleries and for those odd but Okay, back to your curatorial. So you’re currently you Your wife is also a curator and where does she work? Or does it like

Piotr Sikora 1:15:57
She’s the director of into Hello pecky society one of their main project is Hello pecky award which is this award for young Czech artists that happens every year I’ve seen so this is her main activity yet yeah, it’s the platform she she she runs it’s also open for other projects now it’s not only about the price itself but it’s also about working with them you know cuz you gotta get a price in what you’re gonna get some sports some money you can have a residency This is what you get. Next year there will be another winner next year and and you’re getting forgotten so I highly value that they work for instance with people who got or who are in the selection in a five five finalist in 1992 for instance, those are names sometimes that you don’t get to see on like sometimes even at all okay there there’s people like who are in among them there’s

Matthew Dols 1:17:02
Oh yeah, the art market is getting faster and faster like the trends are going faster and so if therefore people winning awards, they’re losing favor faster and faster like it’s Yeah, it’s a bit difficult to keep up with all of that stuff.

Piotr Sikora 1:17:19
So that but I think we have to and we got to get on the slightly slower pace not to be driven by by this novel power all the time. Yeah, so Okay, I run residencies but I think like I was trying to rethink what would be the best answer like how to be a successful artist and I was thinking like that maybe the best way to become one is just to work locally to build yourself a local like within your own community build yourself a name build a network of people you you know you like you can you can have a nice conversation about art and with and and from time to time Beijing on this quality go for the residency to contaminate the different art scene to have you know, just to just to scouts just to have a better understanding how they do it in Taiwan how they do it in, in Czech Republic, but everything has to be firstly local, and then International. I really hate this. And I’m not supposed to say I hate but they you can have whatever you want. Right? Well, it’s it’s also not about I don’t want to address anyone, I want to address certain stereotype of super busy curator who’s you know, always that cannot pick that phone. I was on the flight to enactment.

Matthew Dols 1:18:54
I see I see them on Instagram all the time. There’s somewhere new every day. It’s amazing.

Piotr Sikora 1:19:00
And I think it’s, first of all, it’s like not flying this evil. So you should not be doing that, that you should not fly that much if you want to like if you’re if you think about the future of yourself and your planet. This is besides

Matthew Dols 1:19:16
the radiation that you get while you’re up there as well. But

Piotr Sikora 1:19:19
yeah, so it’s it’s just not the it doesn’t really make sense. And it’s I think it’s a part of this agenda that I particularly don’t like the super speedy, accelerated curatorial approach when does it really necessarily mean that you have seen the show before the opening and as if you are a curator if you if you sign your name, so security does it? Do you really need to have a look at the show or you can just do it for the phone because you’re busy doing something else? And this is wrong. This is something I don’t like I really enjoyed this intimacy and I think But what is important when it comes to art is intimate connection with with the art piece that you don’t even share with anyone that you just have have it that you like it, you love it, you just keep it for yourself. The connection with the art piece as a beholder the connection with the artist as a friend, as someone who is who can help as a collector as I don’t know someone who would write a text, and then your professional approach. So when I’m working on something I’m trying to be honest, I don’t, I don’t necessarily need to travel around the world. And like see, every man is biennial to be successful curator, I think it’s it’s way better just to stay in your own place and enable people to, to travel, like in case of the residencies or just make sure that people are coming here. They’re like, they get enough of good tree that you’re hospitable that you can really show them that this is a really nice place and practice very helpful and comes to that I think that I never met anyone during the residency. And strangely enough, we counted that in the course of last two and a half years we had Yeah, we had 70 artists. So we get to know in the time of two years, we got to know 70 yards is that’s a, I would say it’s it’s a pretty big number. And I never met anyone who would be like, Ah,

Matthew Dols 1:21:19
this is serious. Take me out of here. In the winter, you could have that feeling about drop,

Piotr Sikora 1:21:24
but go to worse. I mean, you got to go there, please go there in winter. You got to love it.

Matthew Dols 1:21:32
I like the quarter personally, if I had a choice between cold or hot, I would definitely go for cold. Because you can put more clothing on but you can’t take more clothing off like there’s only so naked you can get in the summer.

Piotr Sikora 1:21:45
Well, but the weather is one thing, but then I am super satisfied with this liberal element. you how you can track in Prague, the fact that it’s affordable that

Matthew Dols 1:22:00
I just moved here from Abu Dhabi. So Prague is extremely liberal. Well, yeah, okay, fine. Abu Dhabi is incredibly hot, you’re correct. However, it’s also air conditioned in 99% of your daily life. So that’s a little different. But as far as liberal, like I just came from in the Middle East, like that is not liberal. This is a Prague in the Czech Republic is a complete polar opposite to the Middle East. And and it’s subtle encouragements of not to do certain things, they don’t come out and say it, they don’t say like, don’t do that. But they, they sort of encourage you not to do certain things. And you’d basically do it if you want to keep your job.

Piotr Sikora 1:22:46
We’re gonna have you now to look foreign to go to Middle East to discover this sort of approach, I think, in Poland already, you can, you can really feel the difference how people behave around like that there has to be a certain rule that you have to obtain, and there is always a struggle, whether I should obtain it or not. And then there is always you know, this this kind of sensation that people cannot squeeze under the pressure of rules and, and doesn’t really matter what their homeland in Poland. Yeah, we’re talking about what’s going

Matthew Dols 1:23:21
on in Poland. We’re not going to get into politics.

Piotr Sikora 1:23:25
But it’s not even about politics. It’s I think it’s a question of a culture and definitely discussion of religion, which I believe is a part of the culture and checks are completely not interested in religion. I think polls are somehow more more intuitive. And that’s why they they’re just less liberal liberal. I think this is enough to Yeah, we’ll leave it with that. It’s fine.

Matthew Dols 1:23:50
This is not a political podcast.

Piotr Sikora 1:23:52
Not at all. All right.

Matthew Dols 1:23:54
So let’s see anything last two bits about Okay, so you’ve never got to give me your advice on how what’s a step I can do in the direction of getting a piece of my artwork in the Museum of Modern Art in New York,

Piotr Sikora 1:24:07
called cherry salts? I don’t I have no idea.

Matthew Dols 1:24:13
No, I’m not asking for like the end result, though. You know, like, there’s probably 100 steps I’m going to have to take to get that result. Yeah. What’s the first step?

Piotr Sikora 1:24:21
What’s the first step? Yeah, I think that, okay.

Matthew Dols 1:24:26
Joseph says more like the 99 step.

Piotr Sikora 1:24:34
The blessing that will be the blessing that Jerry gives the final final one. Yes,

Matthew Dols 1:24:37
he will touch it and give it a little cross.

Piotr Sikora 1:24:44
Yeah, I think that if it’s a first step to get there, I would say yeah, act, locally, built yourself a space that you can make art and you can see for yourself somehow, like make money, maybe not out of your art, but just give have enough of space and support to be able to do it in place you’re currently at it currently living at and among people that are from from here and can support it this way on matter. So I think that would be my my advice, and then

Matthew Dols 1:25:24
very grassroots kind of likes to basically make a good reputation for yourself, make a good community support network, collectors gallerists. You know, even critics, probably curators, and you get to build your reputation locally, first focus there, and then it will, it will naturally sort of tumble out into the rest of the world. If you do all of that.

Piotr Sikora 1:25:49
Well. It’s pretty idealistic when you said that, but I think this is something that no one’s going to, if you’re not going to screw it up, no one’s going to take it from you, like you will still be doesn’t really matter when you’re in your 30s in your 40s. In your 50s. When you have a reputation, there will be still some people having you in the back of their heads that I don’t believe in the in the in the superstar from zero to hero scenario that someone would just come and pick you up. And thanks, Mama show. My Dark Horse.

Matthew Dols 1:26:19
Yeah, it’s funny because like, in the process of starting this podcast, I started thinking about things like what you’re talking about, which is like, you know, build your community, your base, or your, your set of friends, your support network. And I realized that I’ve been doing the opposite of that for my entire life. Like I’ve, since I graduated high school, I think I’ve moved 19 times, to like, almost a dozen different locations. And so I’ve never actually been anywhere long enough in my adult career to truly sort of make all these connections and make all they get this sort of supports a unit, you know, a group of people to interact with, at any great volume or length. So that so that seems like something that maybe artists should try to think about. So instead of traveling the world and go for experiences, like you can go go do all that and get all your experiences, and then find a place to stop and build your career.

Piotr Sikora 1:27:14
And that’s the only thing I can come up with. Now, that’s great.

Matthew Dols 1:27:19
No, I like it. Because I mean, it’s something I’ve been thinking about recently, as well as I understand the idea of it. Because, you know, like, I keep thinking about like, oh, who can I contact to be part of this podcast. And I keep thinking back to all these people that I knew from previous places, and I’m like, oh, but they’re so far away, they’re so far away, you know, everybody, I don’t want to do this via Skype, and all this kind of stuff. So like, So unfortunately, I don’t have a huge network of people here and around Prague, because I just moved here. So I haven’t built that network. And my network is mostly in the United States or in the Middle East, and places that are not easy for me to get to. And I realized that that network is pretty important. Like the group of people that support network, whatever you want to call it is very necessary, really for our careers that unfortunately, I made the mistake of not doing well.

Piotr Sikora 1:28:11
But I guess that it’s also, you know, I also i’m not living in, in my, in the country when I was born and I have a feeling like that the more longer terms I’m check are living in Czech Republic, I can better profit from my previous experience. And in Poland when I was living there, and I can somehow monetize, not necessarily monetize, but like this. I could leverage and then be able to I just take some Yeah, you know, use it, after all. So I guess that that would be moment when you can connect all those places and profit from from from these contexts. Okay. Was there another question? He said that there were two questions, the first two questions. The second question was,

Matthew Dols 1:29:03
what’s any sort of advice to be able to be financially secure as an artist, let’s call it or we’ll call it successful, whatever word you want to put do it, but but I believe that really, your answers are going to be the same. Because I think you’ve already said that.

Piotr Sikora 1:29:21
Not do not trust commercial galleries. I mean, I’m exaggerating, but do not trust in not like put your trust in art market. I think that was like, that was my advice, wasn’t it? No, it was not. No, this

Matthew Dols 1:29:37
is the first set of that.

Piotr Sikora 1:29:38
Oh, no, no, I think don’t trust it. I met I met the I think I’ve said that. Maybe there is an alternative way how to support your work not because apparently being represented by the gallery. It’s not like the easiest thing you can you can think of so

Matthew Dols 1:29:55
not only is it not easy, but it seems like it’s not very common. Like I again, I didn’t Speaking of artists in the region here since I moved here in, like exclusivity, so some sort of guarantee or something like this is very not common here, it’s very uncommon. I know of one gallery here in Prague, that actually does the thing that again, I’d never heard of which was they buy, they outright buy works from the artist, and then turn around and resell it. So basically, the an artist who is represented by this gallery has a guarantee that the gallery will buy x value of art every month. So there’s basically no there’s there, there, their salary that we’ll call it, their artistic salary is set for the duration of this contract. But they won’t earn more, and they will earn less, like I said, that’s their quantity of income, they’ll get consistent, but they might, but the gallery might end up selling more of their work, because they bought it from them, and they’ll earn more money says it’s a very interesting, dynamic

Piotr Sikora 1:31:01
thing. And they know it on the

Matthew Dols 1:31:03
one hand, I love it. Personally, I like the idea of it, but I come from the artist side of the home, like I like the idea of stability. I think that’s that’s a huge thing that all artists desire, some sort of, it takes a great weight off your shoulder knowing that for the next year or three years, or however long the contract is that, you know, your bills are paid for. And you don’t have to worry about that. That’s great, even if it’s not massive amount of money. But you know, your bills are covered, like so, you know, you would negotiate whatever you need to negotiate to get what you need to make you feel comfortable. But like that’s it that would be I would, it’s an attractive idea. But I could definitely see the downfalls of it too.

Piotr Sikora 1:31:44
I think I come across this this model once. Maybe 10 years ago, in in in Warsaw, there was a company, a private private company that established something called RB house, and it was and they were paying their artists, they had like, stable of 15 artists, each one of them they were promoting and they were paying them fixed amount of money every day. It’s like

Matthew Dols 1:32:09
the old idea of patronage basically.

Piotr Sikora 1:32:11
And it turned to be a fraud and they lost. Like, unfortunately, most of these artists who were part of their gang, they were not able to re establish themselves in it. Because it was somehow there was a lot of antagonism between the new you know, newly established art scene, the 10 galleries that are really in you what they want to do, and then Abbey house and also their the choices were in that weren’t that good. So to say they were not focused on sending artists abroad or being part of the art international art market meaning going for art fairs, they were very local. I said, if you want to get success, we got to be local, but not necessarily in terms of art market, and not necessarily in case of art market. That is underdeveloped. Because we’re living in post communist country or central Eastern European country. Nonetheless, I think that the I didn’t want to say that I hate the art market and I do value like I really enjoy some

Matthew Dols 1:33:16
necessary evil is what it is.

Piotr Sikora 1:33:19
But I also I admire certain people especially from from proc Art Gallery scene that they are doing what they do for for so long that they have still like they resist even today they probably it’s not so it’s not so easy to make a living and it’s an honest it’s an honest, professional but if I would be an art I think that I would position myself in the role of an artist I will definitely try to figure out a way how I can make my living differently work in the arcs art school work and whatever school you could

Matthew Dols 1:33:56
you know this as well as I do the schools don’t pay

Piotr Sikora 1:33:58
very well. But they can let you have some some some basic support you could you could be able to pay your pay your rent from or this is one instance in Israel, it’s super common to be it’s very common

Matthew Dols 1:34:18
throughout the art world in general. Many, many artists throughout the world are in order to give them some stable income probably even health insurance as well. They become professors like it’s totally normal. It’s it’s more it’s actually probably more common for our tests to be professors in order to have that the standard do sort of a nice standard of living basically, that then if and when they exhibit or sell their artworks that that’s more or less like a bonus almost. And of course then they can also apply for grants and different programs through the school to them. Give them more additional resources and opportunities. I love teaching because of the generally when I teach at a school The school has amazing resources that I get to then play with and you know, I get to introduce to the students but I also get to learn about it myself so that I can potentially then incorporate in some of my own work. So I love that. So we have nothing else than this has been marvelous. Thank you very much for your time.

Piotr Sikora 1:35:15
Thank you a lot. Thank you for having me.

Matthew Dols 1:35:26
Thank you for listening. If you have any questions for me or any questions or comments that you want me to discuss with future guests, please send me an email at Matt at wise for pod.com Wi sefolpod.com. Ask them on our website wise for pod comm or any of our social media profiles on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at wise fool pod. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future and assisting you in gaining more understanding of the contemporary visual art market.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com