Transcript for Episode 001 – Founder + Gallerist, Petr Hajek, Chemistry Gallery (Prague, CZ)
Recorded on June 5, 2019
Published on July 13, 2019
Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-founder_gallerist_petr_hajek_chemistry_gallery_in_prague_cz/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Matthew Dols 0:12
Welcome to the wise fool. I’m Matthew Dols, your host. Today, my guest is Petr Hajek, founder and gallerist at the chemistry gallery in Prague, Czech Republic. In our discussion, we touch on collectors, gallery spaces, lack of exclusivity for artists, art fairs, young and emerging artists, graffiti and street artists, pricing, artists selling out of their studio, elite ism in the art world, and the regulations of the art market. Where did the name comes from the chemistry gallery? Well, the name actually came, it was just like my my idea, once I was going in a taxi home before I had a gallery, and it was still an idea. And what came to my mind was sentence, way too many dreams. This is the chemistry of what you feel. And I thought they can it from this sentence that chemistry could be a nice name for a gallery. And since then, actually, I took it as a name that I’ve wanted to use. This is the official version, you know, I also have an official version, because this is too complicated to explain, you know. So when someone asks me in the gallery, I just say that it’s called the chemistry gallery, because I believe that if there is a good art, there should be a chemistry between the art and the viewer. And this is the way how you recognize good art from bad art, if you feel the chemistry is a good art, regardless of what is it to you, it’s a good good art. If you don’t feel this chemistry, it’s it’s it’s not a good art. So sure, that’s like the basis of it, like people should be buying art because they love the work not for investment purposes and other things like this. Well, I think both both, you know, I think even if you are buying for investment purposes, you are usually I’m not saying in 100%, but usually you are not buying what you don’t like. So and also people who come to the gallery, they often tell me that they don’t understand to art. And I always tell them that actually, they don’t need to understand art, they just need to understand what they like and what they don’t like. And as long as they are able to understand this, then they can choose whatever they want. Okay, so So what kind of collectors Do you generally work with? And so you’re talking to you saying that you have people that come in for investment purposes, and you have some that do come in purely for the love of the craft? What what’s your sort of demographic? And how was the chemistry gallery evolving over time? Well, I think Yeah, collectors actually is important section of our clients mainly because they they come repeatedly so so and they don’t buy art, just to fill space on the wall. They buy art to their collection. So So collectors are buying far most of the demo outside a lot of works a lot of artworks. But I so they are important and we have collectors, you know, they it’s it’s usually the typical profile of of our collector is successful person. I don’t know 40 plus and usually lawyers or developers, is there a gender differences that prominently male or female? I don’t think so. But what is important in this is that if if a couple comes you know, it’s always difficult to come to the conclusion what what would they like with the exception of really experienced collectors who are you know, already organized and synchronized and who they are able to select quickly the best, the best pieces, but when the couple comes who are not experienced collectors, it’s very often what happens quite often is that actually, for instance, he likes the art and she doesn’t want it at home or other way around. So, so I I saw many examples when actually, I thought this piece, I will sell this piece but then the other half of the application And he or she said No way. Okay, so let’s go back a little bit, actually. So the so chemistry gallery started when? Well,
Petr Hajek 5:09
I started the gallery in October 2008. So it’s so so so we were celebrating 10 years last year, and this year is our 11th year. I’m very happy about this, because people experienced people from our business, they say that, that the most important years are first first three years, and most of galleries don’t survive first three years. And then first five years is another kind of test. So we survived survived both, both these two tests. So I hope we will survive for a longer time. And not only that, we survived this test. We I think we are expanding, we are now regularly presenting check art in international art first. So I hope we are on a good track. Yes. And you’re about to open up a new location over in Prague seven. Yes, anything about that? Yeah, we you know, we, when I started the gallery in 2008, it was a small flat in vinohrady 80 square meters with a very nice terrace. After two years, we moved to a three time bigger space in Kampala, in the center of Prague, next to the Charles Bridge. I knew the owner of this building, he gave me very good offer. So we moved. We stayed another two years, then then then we moved to another space in hollow shirts. And we had to two spaces in a big industrial building that is now being renovated. Yeah, that’s where I first found you. So so. So one year and a half ago, we left our fourth location. And since then, I was looking for a new location. And and in two weeks, actually, we will open a new space, which will be our fifth location in Prague. And it will be in LACMA in overnight scar street 17. And it will be again, smaller space, but I don’t mind, I take it that it will be our base base camp, let’s say. And in last 18 months, we were doing mostly pop up shows in unused spaces all around Prague. So I still count on with this That aside, beside from having a permanent location, we will be doing pop up shows in unused spaces around prac. I know a lot of artists and galleries and stuff that do pop up shows throughout the world. Do you find that the pop up shows are in? I mean, there’s a different kind of way you could think of successful like financially successful versus sort of publicity successful like do you find them successful for you?
Matthew Dols 8:19
Yeah, well.
Petr Hajek 8:23
Yeah, we did. We did very successful pop up shows in last 18 months. I was doing really big collective exhibitions where I exhibited always more than 30 artists. And it was it was an I did it in a in a very big spaces like 800 square meters or more. Oh, yeah, I saw the one over near wasn’t the square. Yes, it was quite it was three storeys if I remember correctly. Yeah. So and it’s very attractive, you know, you can you can invite people to a space that they don’t usually know. And, and I was intentionally looking for a very large spaces, so so I could exhibit a lot of artworks. And, and when you exhibit a lot of artworks, you have a higher probability that someone will like some of them, which actually happened. So, so so it was it was it was a nice way of exhibiting. And another good thing about this was that we didn’t have a fixed cost related to the space. We were always doing like one night opening. But usually the exhibition stayed longer. Because the owners of the space, liked the exhibition so much that they said, We don’t have another tenants, you can stay here for another months for free. So so so cost wise, it was great. But I’m at the same time looking forward to having a permanent space because I’m looking forward to this programming work so that I can talk To artists, like six months in advance, they can, they can count on the show, they can prepare artwork specifically for the space. And the result in such cases is usually very good. So I’m really looking forward to having a permanent space again, again. And so currently, how many artists? Do you do sort of a representation? Do you do an exclusive representation? limited representation? Or do you just exhibit as needed sort of, like, as a group show comes up? Or something like this? What your what’s your model for that? Well, actually, I’m very liberal in this and, and I don’t, I don’t require exclusivity, I might, I might rethink this approach. Because I, as I mentioned, we started to participate in international art fairs, we are producing catalogs, we are helping and supporting artists in many, various, many different ways. And I just realized that if we are investing so much into artists, we should we should our bond with the artists should be closer. And because what could happen is that I take one artist to international art fairs, he makes his reputation there. And then next month, he has a show is different gallery and and who and this gallery was not investing anything, and and all reputation is this gallery will get all the reputation that we created by investing into these artists. So so so I’m now thinking about having like three different kinds of types of cooperation with artists, one would be like very close exclusive cooperation. Second would be like, a little bit more loose, but still very, very close cooperation with artists. And then we, I still want to have a group of artists with who I want want to cooperate, I don’t need to promise them that they will have shows in my space, or I will take them to international art fairs, but I still want to have possibility to work with them, and to offer their artworks to the clients and collectors. Interesting. Okay. So and you’re speaking a lot about the future, the fact that you have gone to and that you’re going to in the future continue to go to art fairs, do you have any sort of feeling about how the nature of art fairs are working? Are they working well for you? Are they working? Maybe like you need to get to some better art fairs? Or like, do you have some specific examples of like, certain good art fairs are better than others for certain reasons, kinds of things? Well, was adverse, it’s it’s a really long story, actually. First, I was a little bit pessimistic about participating in art fairs, very expensive, because they are very expensive and and then, actually, the first first time when we participated at international Art Fair was in June 2016, in Basel three years ago, and at our first art fair, we met our New York collector with who we are still in contact and and he bought artworks from us since then, several times. And actually, I realized that this kind of people I cannot meet, when I’m here in Prague, I need to go abroad to this renowned international art fairs to actually have the possibility to meet international collectors, international, art journalists, people from museums, art galleries. So and I think for this, it’s really important to be part of the art fair. So So now, I think it’s an important thing. And me as a gallerist, I just need to think about how I am able to finance participation. At first, it is possible to get some kind of support from the Prague municipality, when, when you as a gallery is when you are accepted to international Art Fair. But yeah, I want to have more diverse opportunities for financing our participation at international art fairs so that I’m thinking also about docking about financing our participation at the art fairs with collectors, for instance, because when we when we take an artist to do art fair, who is not known? We are working on his reputation and we are actually increasing the price of his paintings. So for instance, it can make sense for a collector who has some artists in his collect collection to to help us with participation at the art fair because as a result, it increases the value of his or her collection. Certainly, yeah, I totally understand that. Okay, back we sort of never really finished up with so now your background. So we’ve got the the gallery’s background, what’s your background? Where do you come from? Well, actually, I’m I I came to the art world from a totally different areas. I was playing football for, from when I was seven, until when I was 23. That’s, that’s soccer for the American left. Yeah, I was professional football player from 19 to 23. And, and at the same time, I was studying law faculty and and when I, when I finished Law Faculty, when I was 23, I quit football from one day to another. And I started to work as a lawyer. And then I was working for 10 years as a lawyer. And my before I was when I was quitting. Before my last job, I was quitting the job before I was thinking about what I really want to do. And and I had two ideas. One idea was organizing concerts. And the other idea was creating an art gallery. And then I thought that actually, there’s already too many people organizing concerts. So I thought I used to work in that industry. It’s a it’s a, it’s a cutthroat industry. Yeah. So So I thought, the idea of is the gallery is a better idea. And, and since then, actually, it become it became an an idea that I couldn’t get rid of. And that’s gotta be hard, though. You’re going from like law, which is like, one of those stable like, you’ve got constant stable, good income to something like the arts, which is completely unstable on Yeah, like you’ve you have no idea potentially where your next paycheck if any paycheck is coming from? How do you do that transition from like, security to insecurity? Yeah, well, actually, when I got this idea, I had like, three years, when I was only talking about it, I was talking with my friends that I want to do a gallery and after three years, I had an idea that I already I’m talking too much so that I should do something. So I found a space, I found a friend who helped me to move this idea forward. And at this, at this time, I was working for PricewaterhouseCoopers, which is international advisory financial company, tax advisors, auditors. And, and I started the gallery while I was working for pres PricewaterhouseCoopers and I have worked for PricewaterhouseCoopers for another six years, or four or five, something like this. And, and obviously, for three years, actually, the only way for me to have a gallery was the income from from my employer, because I was funding the gallery from my own income. And if I if I, if I don’t have this if I would not have this opportunity at this time, I think we would not be existing now already. So so so this helped me a lot that I started the gallery while I was working for PricewaterhouseCoopers and and only after like three or four years I I left PwC and and and I started to gallery as a full time job but but it was really important that I had this support in the beginning and and has this also this this dream you had of like being in the art world and doing running an art gallery has it has it fulfilled the the ideals or is it have things happen that you’re like, Oh, I
Matthew Dols 19:39
did not know that was gonna happen? Yeah, actually, from the very beginning. You know, we from the very beginning, we started to be, I think, quite popular. You know, we were we were focusing at young emerging artists, and I like street art and graffiti and so so I My plan was also to present a graffiti artists. And in 2008, I think there was not that many galleries, who were focusing at young artists and traditional galleries, public galleries, were showing mostly works of other artists. I think it happened only in last in last 10 years that actually there were new galleries coming up who was who had the same program as us, which was a sole focus on young emerging artists, and also the traditional galleries were starting to look more closely at young emerging artists. So from the very beginning, we were quite popular, you know, people were coming to the openings to do exhibitions, there were articles in, in, in, in, in magazines and newspapers. And I think it was because of our focus at young emerging artists and at street artists and graffiti artists, did social media also play a role in that? Yeah. And also, actually, you know, in 2008, Facebook was only only starting. And, and so, so from the very beginning, it was invaluable tool for us how to organize, opening an exhibition, and I was sometimes thinking about how people were organizing exhibitions and opening in the time before Facebook, you know, I did that I worked for art galleries, and we would have to design the postcards and then print out all the labels and stick on all the stamps and take them all to the post office at the right time. So it’s not too early, but not too late. It was a quite a chore to actually coordinate and find even like we used to buy mailing lists of people that we thought would be interested in me, there was it’s very different world out there then than it was in the past. Social media has, has allowed the the people that are already interested in what you’re doing to find you in a much easier way than it was than it did traditionally. Yeah. I often say that actually, as Michael Jackson, you know, raised his carrier based on videos. And on MTV, which was a new thing. We were able to expand thanks to Facebook, because it was the beginning and we just made made the most use of it. Interesting. So do you find that there’s any sort of direct correlation like so like, for me, like, when I first moved to the United Arab Emirates, I found social media actually to be very good way to connect. And I actually had a number of sales and a number of jobs I hired to do through directly just through that didn’t meet me Didn’t know these people know, nothing. Same thing here when I moved to Prague, like one of the first people that have friended me and ended up buying a very large set of work for their collection. So I found social media sort of fits in spurts. Like, it helps sometimes but it’s it doesn’t feel like it’s consistent. You know, well, it helps you to attract crowd. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that this crowd is that some some people in this crowd are your clients, I was usually finding clients a different through different channels. But Facebook help in attracting crowds so that people were talking about us among each other, you know, and this kind of thing, and it helped us actually to become popular. And, and, and the fact that we were popular, it helped his clients as well because they could see that actually, okay, this galleries interesting and a lot of people likes them and they go to openings, we should probably care about them, too. So so these are two different groups. The crowd that is coming to the opening, right and group who can buy some artworks, so Okay, so the price point of the artists that you currently have, so I’m not gonna worry about the past but like the where you are now your general price point of artwork is I’m assuming higher than it was when you first started out years ago. Yeah, for sure. For sure. What’s your current range? Let’s say Well,
Petr Hajek 24:33
yeah, we also are selling like Siri graphes for like one to 3000 crowns. But if I’m if I’m talking about paintings, and also it depends on the size of the painting about Yeah, but but but actually, for instance, painting of a painter was who we started to cooperate, which was 170 to 130 centimeters. It was 10 years ago, it was like 30,000 Czech crowns. Now it’s like 120,000 Czech crowns, for instance, it’s like four times more. So So you find artists when they’re sort of in school or just getting out of school, and then you like to grow with them, like, so you help them, you coach them, you, you take them to art fairs, and you expand there. Yeah, I want to build a long term relationship with service artists. That’s why it’s quite, quite difficult. Now, when I already have a long term experience with working with artists, and and I want to start to cooperate with new artists. So I need to be very selective and where and I need to be, I need to be very careful in actually choosing with who I want to cooperate, because I think what makes sense is a long term cooperation. Where the cook because in this way, the both gallery and the artist knows and can see or in what way the other part was helping each other. Sure. So you, you primarily are focused on young and emerging Czech artists. Yes. No, don’t don’t you don’t carry a represent anybody that’s not Czech or Slovak, I’m assuming we had an exhibition of exhibitions of foreign artists as well. For instance, our first exhibition was exhibition of a Portuguese sculptor Xiao garau. And and the reason why we why our first ever exhibition was exhibition of foreign artists, was because we wanted to make some kind of statement that we are coming to the Czech art world from outside, you know, we were not insiders, we were outsiders. And and I think that the Czech art world is very, an elite, elite,
Matthew Dols 27:03
elitist, elitist,
Petr Hajek 27:05
elitist, you know, and they are groups that don’t like other groups, and they don’t talk to each other, and they think about them. That’s a little clicky. But that means that So, yeah, so so by, by by, by showing of artists from abroad, we wanted to show that we don’t care about any groups that already existed, and that we can do whatever we want. And this is the spirit that we can that we are keeping still, I don’t really want to look at some, you know, this kind of elite approach and groups that don’t like other groups, I just want to select artists based on what I like, and what I don’t like. And that’s the only kind of way how I’m selecting artists. So that’s a good segue to the sort of structure of the gallery right now, as you You are the founder, director, artistic director, curator like what what roles do you play? And do you have other employees that have both fill in some other roles? Yeah, I’m a I’m a curator and art director, let’s say and I’m selecting artists who we represent who we exhibit, who we show, who to who we produce catalogs, who we take to art fairs, and this kind of thing I I have actually two employees now, one is my assistant and the other one is my production manager. Because my approach to the gallery work is that I want to be an interdisciplinary gallery, meaning that I don’t think that we should be focusing only on art. I would like to be active also in other areas like design, film, music, and these kind of things. So so so we are also doing like music events, we are also doing our production work. So So I have a colleague of mine who is like a production manager for this kind of works or jobs. We we used to have a job we used to have a design store as well. So I had another employee who was running the design store, but I closed it last year in November and and we will have a design section in our new space but I will not have two separate locations, one gallery gallery and one design store because the design store just was just not performing well. You’re moving forward looking for new artists. What are some of the some of the criteria? Like do you look for subject matter of the art? Do you look for mediums? Do you look for experience scale? Even? Like, I mean, what are some of the things that the sort of grab your attention, especially considering, I mean, you’re still a business in the end. And so you need to make a living. So you can’t just be selling serigraphs and prints because it’s not going to be enough. And you can’t only be trying to sell the monumental sculptures because there’s just not going to be enough buyers out there for them. So how do you find that little middle ground of like, the right artists that are the right price point, the right scale, the right subject matter the right medium to make it so that you can continue to keep your doors open, build your reputation, build the reputation of the artists build reputation of the checker art in the international scene? Like that’s a lot of weight on your shoulders. So like, what are some how do you do that? Well, actually, you know, when you start a gallery, it’s you can you can approach it from from various angles and and it’s important to define actually, from what angle you are looking at me what I did, or the way how I approach it from the very beginning. I was from the very beginning, I wanted to focus at paintings and sculptures. Little question oil, painting acrylic, either boat doesn’t watercolor, it doesn’t matter. What whatever. Okay, okay,
Matthew Dols 31:37
just paint. I got it.
Petr Hajek 31:38
For instance, spray paint.
Matthew Dols 31:40
Okay, spray paint.
Petr Hajek 31:43
It’s a newer version, paint inside. And and so so so so this was my my ambition, I wanted to present paintings and sculptures. And I didn’t have other ambitions, I didn’t want to show conceptual work or didn’t want to. It’s just not my chemistry,
Matthew Dols 32:08
throwbacks.
Petr Hajek 32:10
And I’m not saying that actually, they are great conceptual artists out there, and that it’s great to have a conceptual exhibition in the gallery. But the whole financing and the whole structure is different. When you are showing conceptual work, as opposed to a commercial art gallery that is showing paintings and sculpture. Sure. I mean, I constantly go to galleries and small museums and stuff in and I see conceptual art, and I was educated in the, in the new genre art form, at my master’s program, and I’m still to this day, I’m sort of like, how do conceptual artists make a living at it? Like, how do they, how do they sell it, I mean, the only institutions I could see purchasing them, but like beyond that, you know, I was brought up on the like, make a beautiful thing that people can enjoy in their home like that. That’s the product based object base. And actually, I was like this as well, you know, and actually, I took as my advantage, the fact that I was coming from a business background. So actually, in the very beginning, one of the reasons why I wanted to do two gallery that is focused at young emerging artists, one of the reasons for this was that I had a feeling which actually proved to be right, that I’m able to show to sell their works to potential buyers and clients so that like, create new clients and new clients for the artwork that is being created. So So I always took this as my advantage, and and as something what I can offer to do to the artists, so I wanted to make the most of it. Well, I also work in academia and like part of my job is always to try to help the students to learn how to be the business of the arts, but I’ll be honest, I’m a bit disillusioned by that, like I’ve been teaching for almost two decades. And I find I’ve sort of gotten to the point that I feel like me, of course, and I mean, this is the nature of this podcast, but the I definitely don’t know how the business of the arts works. I feel like it’s evolved, and it’s changed and it’s grown and, and shrunk in so many different ways that I was taught by my teachers decades ago. And I still hold on to the ways that they told us how the art world works, but I don’t think the art world works like that anymore. And that’s part of why I wanted to create this podcast is to try and get sort of some updated current active knowledge of like, how does it work now? It will I think when you started At an art gallery, you should have some kind of financial background or from, you know, some kind of funds that you can make make, that you can use in the beginning. When should artists have some background in business knowledge marketing business, something like this is is that something that’s important? Yeah. But I think artists should have much more. They should know much more about our business than when they are leaving art schools. I think they they know, they don’t know enough. And I think I’m blaming schools and the people who are teaching at school, I’m a teacher in those schools. And I will take the blame on that doesn’t mean, I can’t tell you how many times like, I’ll teach a student something. And I’ll be like, Oh, do you have a contract for that? Or did you do a model release for this? And their law? Like, what’s the contract? What’s
Matthew Dols 35:56
a model release?
Petr Hajek 35:56
And nobody seems to be able to get together and say, like, Okay, this is what you need to know. And that’s what I’m here to try to offer to the public through this podcast is like, these are the things you need to know. So if an artist wants to approach a gallery, in this case, you this is what they should know how they should do. How would a guy an artist, young artist, approach your gallery in you in particular? And look professional? Like, what would impress you? What would impress me the most would be a great portfolio. Okay. You know, I don’t, to be honest, well, I don’t care how good businessman is artists, I care only about how good artists he or she is. Because, or because if the artist is is very good businessman. He or she usually don’t use a don’t need a gallerist. Because, because I know a lot of artists who are great businessmen, on their own, I was working with them and they for some time, and they and we are no, no, we are we are not cooperating anymore. They just went the their path. And they were very successful. So and I understand why we are not cooperating together, and I wish them luck. for for for the path they chose. It’s okay, I don’t know any of these people. So so. So I don’t care if the how much the artist knows about the business. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s basically me, who should be able to have a set of rules. And when I talk to a new artist, I should be able to say, look, this is the way how we work, if you want to work with us and have exhibitions catalogs, going to art fairs. This is the set of rules. And and we can discuss it. I think everyone is individuality. So it needs to be discussed, but but it’s me who should have the set of rules. And it’s the artists who should have good artworks not around. Okay, but within that, how much of it like is, is the artwork itself because, like, I know many people and possibly I’m even one of these people who make good artwork, or even fabulous artwork. Like I knew some friends of mine who’d make amazing artwork, but they’re not necessarily the nicest people, or the nicest people to work with. But they make the nominal work. And then I know other people the other way, like phenomenally nice people and their work is kind of mediocre. Like if you had a choice. Would you work with the phenomenal artist who’s a little difficult? Or would you work with the easy artist as a personality? That makes maybe not as good art? Yeah, for sure to first of all, go for first option. Yeah. You know, it’s funny, you know, we could be talking hours here about individualities of the artists who I cooperate I I have like, alcoholic psychotic alcoholics, you know, on one on one side to like very organized very clean. always on time people you know, German
Matthew Dols 39:19
obsessive compulsive guy.
Petr Hajek 39:21
Yeah, very obsessive. People who are like this, you know, so, so so it’s a big variety of people and I always need to find a way how to cooperate with them. And I think what is also important and it also relates to chemistry. You know, you you when you cooperate long term with someone you you want to have a feeling that that you’re you are friends that you are connected. And if I don’t feel this, I usually step out even if I like the art I I want to, I want to have a feeling that we are building something together and that both sides feeling that we are building something. Okay. So I mean, that’s an interesting thing for like a lot of artists probably to hear it. And even potentially people that want to run galleries or anything like that is like that connection of like, basically liking, supporting and feeling some sort of bond or connection with the artists themselves is a very important part for you, regardless of whether they’re like, the most amazing artists in the world. Yeah,
Matthew Dols 40:30
that’s right. That’s great.
Petr Hajek 40:32
Yeah, I have one of my best artists, for instance, painter, he has a big problem is alcohol and he’s very complicated the person. And, and, and I and I trust him even though you know, I, I came through so many ups and downs with him. But But I love his art, I understand his personality. I don’t mind that the that he’s a psychotic alcoholic. I just want to work with him, because I love his art. Sometimes they’re the most fun to work with really keep things interesting. So what Okay, so where do you think the the future of the chemistry gallery is? I mean, you seem to be trying to sort of position yourselves as a strong representation of the Czech art market, in the international realm. Is that so? Is that are you striving to sort of create that foundation of, of the strength of the Czech art internationally? Is this your sort of progression forward from here? Yeah, actually, my, my, my ambition is to be able to sell Czech art abroad. This is this is what I want to achieve. And this is what I’m trying to do. Is that something that’s difficult at this point? Yeah, well, it’s difficult. But but but it’s not unreal. It’s difficult because it requires money funding to be able to, you know, go abroad to these international art fairs. And, and not only there do to have a relevant representation abroad, it just costs money. So so so so you need to be clever about how to do it. Do you do any like partner galleries and other geographical locations? Yeah, this is one of the things that I want to develop that I haven’t developed enough yet. I want to have like, I don’t know two three galleries with hoovy exchange exhibitions, and who are located in in in West Europe, Western Europe or in the US. Yeah, this is this is this. This is one of the steps that I want to do actually to to to create partnerships with with galleries abroad so far. I we are we go abroad, mostly through the international art fairs. You were at Miami recently? No, we plan to go to Miami. Yeah, and we were we were in Basel and in New York, at scope vault and volta mostly those two art fairs. And last year, we were in Budapest at our market Budapest. And since we started since we started to go to the international art fairs because they are very selective so once they selected us we are on the list of all the other art fairs so I’m receiving a lot of offers to participate and adverts and and so I think this is nice ways to nice way to do it. But another way to do it is to have like partnering galleries, and I’m sure you can meet some of them actually, those Yeah. The art fairs there. They’re just about connections. It’s just about meeting did really mean I worked for a gallery and we did the Toronto Art Fair one time and 99% of what we did there was simply make new connections, because we were the gallery was in San Francisco. So this was just a you know, a completely different market. And it was just all about meeting brand new people making brand new connections, whether it’s clients or other gallery opportunities, what I wanted to say about those about the international artists, you know, we were we were shot we are having exhibition of artists from abroad. But I feel that here in Prague, for instance, people are more interested about the works of Czech artists. They they take it if they By their artworks, they take it as a way of supporting him or her. And, and they like to see this artist grow. And also so i think so this is the reason why I’m focusing more at artists then at for foreign artists. It’s okay, I don’t take offense for hours, and hours. And also, I can see when I’m traveling, I can see that, that what Czech artists are producing is easily comparable with whatever is created abroad. So I want to make use of it. And I want to show Czech artists in the way that actually can compete with whatever presentation of artists from abroad. So I want to be exporting Czech artists, basically. That’s great. Somebody’s got to otherwise the the art market could sort of just sort of implode if people don’t actively participate in it. Hear me now So okay, along that line, do you find that most at this point in your in your gallery? Do you find that most of your collectors and buyers are local Czech residents? Are you getting a more predominantly international set of buyers? Yes, most of them are Czech, Czech buyers, Czech buyers where we do sell artworks to foreigners as well, who are visiting Prague Wheaton, for instance, we have paintings in Mandarin Oriental here in Prague, so, so people who are staying in this hotel, they often call us and they want to go to see our artworks. And, but I think it’s like maybe 10% goes to foreigners and 90% to do to do people from Czech Republic. But we are selling to India to New York, LA London, France, Australia, all over the world, including me, from my experiences, I found that the Czech collectors that I have met thus far, which is not many have been primarily focused on Czech art, they really love the buying local, let’s say that kind of spirit, you know, it’s very different from places like London, or New York, for instance, in the US, and I have no interest in usr really, per se. I mean, I mean, there’s some fabulous, amazing art made in the United States. But I mean, I grew up in Washington, DC, and there are a handful of fabulous artists there. But no great need to collect them. I feel like I’m above the generation and have the salvo we love the exotic art. Like we like, to us. European art is exotic. Yeah, yeah. And this is very different from approach I can see here. People, like support, like check artists, Czech artists, and and they don’t, they, they don’t look that much for exotic artists, whatever it means. But again, I think it’s very different from from each collector. And one of our collectors he is he decided, like, three years ago to build his own collection. Very successful lawyer. And so he went resorts to Basel in 2016. And he had advisor from London coming to meet him there. And she was taking him to Art Basel and showing him What is interesting, what what might, what might be a good buy, you know, what could increase in, in price. And, and he was kind of following her and he was listening to her advice. But to me, it seemed to me too. Financially driven. Yeah, it was financial. It was in some kind of instant, or, you know, it was not that I thought that this approach is losing his personality somehow. Yeah, it sounded like he was he was being encouraged to invest in like blue chip artists that would actually what he found out was that if he wants to invest into international art artists, who’s whose price might go up, he would, he would need to have much bigger budget than he actually had. You know, so So I think in a way he is still looking at international artists, but in a way he he is now looking more at young Czech artists and trying to choose those select those who had ambition or possibility to second to succeed abroad.
Matthew Dols 49:57
Yeah, I read the 12 no Dollar stuffed shark since we last spoke. And it’s very interesting. I mean, the whole economics of the the art world, it’s really funny to me because like, there’s the old joke that says, you get 10 bankers together, they’re gonna talk about art, he had 10 artists together, they’re gonna talk about money. So like, I feel like money becomes the end all be all of everything. Like when people sit down and talk, like, I’m sitting here with you. And I’m thinking, like, but how does he get his money? Where does he get his money? How does? How does? How does the finances work. But I’m an artist like that, that’s my background. So it’s very odd and difficult, the creativity and money end up being sort of woven together in this very difficult balance that unfortunately, seems to favor the money, the people with money and disadvantages, the the creative people, like I rarely hear about an artist going, Oh my gosh, I’m making so much money from selling my art. Whereas you hear about, you know, people who own collections going, Oh, I made so much money by selling my thing on the the auction market or something like this, like so. It’s it’s difficult that imbalance of the and the focus on the money part of it. I mean, you know, how hard is that to balance that, like, you’ve got to have some integrity, to create some some amount of respect. And because I mean, in the end, in this industry, our name and our reputation is everything’s, whether it’s your gallery, you as an individual, like me, as an artist, our reputation is everything. So like, how do you grow like, so let’s say for you as a gallery, like, how do you grow your reputation internationally? Well, again, you know, the fact that that we are selected to these international art fairs is a great investment into our reputation. Because we are seen internationally and we are seen internationally at relevant places. And so when when someone looks at our is history, they can see that we were attend international art fairs in last three years. You know, even though they don’t don’t know us that if it’s person who is knowledgeable about the art world, he or she should think that Okay, that’s probably a good gallery. So, so, no, okay, but have the art fairs of the art fairs being let’s say, at least a wash if not profit making, or are they investments we’ll call it which you know, technically is what people call losses, but like we call it an investment. Have they been how have they been for you? Well, uh, yet, it’s, it’s, it’s that difficult. And it’s very polite, and I was just talking about it with my one of my artists. She was asking me about the art the scope Art Fair. In New York, where we were in March, it was our most successful Art Fair. We sold like a 10 pieces there eight sculptures, more size sculptures and two drawings. So so so we had a great success. But financially it was, I think we were maybe, but we probably didn’t lose money. Even very, yeah, it was like a breakeven, maybe we earned like 30,000 Czech crowns something like this. Yeah. I mean, the the general public has no idea how much money it costs to participate in those I mean, between, you know, between transportation of the artwork, the the hotels, the travel expenses, the the cost of the those booths, those booths are not I mean, I remember when we did ours in Toronto, like, this is like 20 years ago, and it was like 15,000 US dollars at the time to just for the booth, then you had to, like pay extra for a plug and patch, light bulb and all this other kind of stuff, like a chair or for a table. Other. I mean, it’s it’s an entire industry in and of itself. And I look forward to talking to somebody in the art fair industry about that whole aspect of the arts world as well. But, I mean, it’s very expensive to do. And I mean, you I don’t know, I mean, outside of like the really major blue chip, kind of like galleries. I don’t know how a lot of galleries can afford to do it, because it’s it’s a huge investment of both money and time, because you’ve got to prepare for it, advertise for it, do it, you know, I mean, and also the reason why some galleries go out of business because they just cannot afford to finance this kind of international presence. Yeah. But now here in the Czech Republic, you’re very lucky that you have a government that does actually support the arts in general plus light and potentially things like this where you’re going outside the Czech Republic and representing the Czech Republic, they actually will assist in funding these kinds of projects.
Petr Hajek 54:55
Yeah, we can when we are accepted to international For since 2018, you can you can get a support from Prague municipality for participating and international Art Fair. That’s phenomenal. That mean, most locales and countries would not do something like that. Yeah, I think it’s great, you know, because, because, because big cities has budget for attracting tourists and for creating reputation of the city. So why why not to create a reputation of the whole city by helping galleries from this city, participate at art fairs abroad, that has the exact clients that the city wants to attract? Because first thing that people say when they come to our booth at the Art Fair, they look, ooh, where are we from? And they say, oh, Prague. And their first reaction is, oh, it’s a beautiful city, or I heard it’s beautiful. I have never been there, I want to go there, or I love their beer. So so so it supports culture, and tourism as well. And cities has budgets for supporting Culture and Tourism. So I think this is a great way how to, but that’s very abnormal. I mean, you’re extremely lucky to be in Prague to be able to get these kinds of fundings. Because, I mean, I’ve lived in 19 different cities throughout the world. And I mean, that’s not that common.
Matthew Dols 56:25
Yeah,
Petr Hajek 56:26
no, it’s a very unique thing to just hear. So that’s very nice. Is there a piece of art that you have ever experienced in your life that somehow moved you in some great way? Definitely. Yeah, I, you know, as I said, I’m selecting art artists based on what I like, or if I like their work. And so so I really looking forward every time I go to the artists Rio to see new works of, of my artists and, and because they are all very, very talented, they, they, they they produce great, great artworks that I really love. And I could actually I think every artist is who are cooperate, sometime moved me This is no, I’m not, I’m not talking about people that you work with, in general, in your life, like, you know, like, I have this my favorite piece of artwork I saw when I was like, in fifth grade on a school field trip to the national shoot, I think it’s the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, DC. I mean, like, everybody has like that, that, that that one sort of piece that sort of inspired them and move them to the kind of one that you can’t get out of your head and like you, you think about it every now and then kind of want, like, What’s yours? Well, I think, for instance, about 15 years ago, or maybe 70 already, I I spent one month in Chicago for a secondment, and, and they have like large sculptures in this industry, it’s, you know, so for instance, this, if I’m thinking about something specific, this was something what what I really liked. And, and, and, and, you know, I, as I said, I’m outsider in, in the art world, so so so when, when I’m traveling, I like to go to museums and galleries and and I’m taking it as a as studying, you know, the subject. And the best thing is to go to galleries with the artists because they know a lot about history and a lot about individual artists. So So I learned a lot from from going to galleries with with artists, because I I realized that I’m looking at artwork from a totally different perspective than then when I’m looking at it myself, as I say so. So as a person who runs a gallery when you go into another gallery or a museum even Are you thinking financial stuff, you’re like, oh, that should have sold for this or their prices are too high. Their prices are too low. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. My first my first reaction is if I want to exit if I can imagine that I would be exhibiting or not. And if if the answer is positive, then I’m curious about what is the price range and divide? Do you do you find that there’s like regions that in your opinion, sort of overpriced or underpriced, like as a region? Yeah, well, the whole Western Europe and the US is overpriced. The whole Central and Eastern Europe is underpriced. Babies in art. I think it’s like this. It’s still like this. But it doesn’t mean that they are expensive artists here. If they work long enough, they are already expensive. But the prices in in in in the Western Europe and in the US are much much higher than then are the prices here and go to the Middle East, Middle East is extremely Yes, I can imagine. And you know, we are you Oh, you need to think about your price strategy when you go to international art fair for instance, because you know, as it is very costly, you cannot be selling cheap art there, even though the price is the price that is here. So, actually taking a Czech artists to international art fair, who doesn’t have already high price, it means it means that you are actually increasing his price, right. So that it can be it can be very dangerous, because when you show him at international art fair at the increased price, and you sell it, then you cannot lower the price when you come back. So and but then you may have difficulties to find clients for the art force of this artist for this price. So, you need to be very careful about actually who to take at the end at what price to you, we’ll be offering it but, you know, even though we go to international art fairs We are, we are selling artworks worth of like, I don’t know, 10 10,000 euros, 12,000 euros, I’m not I was now reviewing our price list for basil where we go this Saturday in two days. And by the time this podcast come out will be passed. Okay. And, and actually, the most expensive piece is for 30,000 Euros, which is a large scale sculpture. And so majority of sculptures is around the 1012 50,000 euros, and the paintings are around 10 12,000 euros as well. So, you know, and these, this, this doesn’t mean that it’s expensive. It may be that’s not expensive for an art fair. It may be a lot of money. But but but compared to artworks at Dr. art fairs, it’s not an expensive art. I mean, there’s there’s also the long standing sort of tradition that basically any retail price a price you put on a price sheet or a price you quoted somebody is embedded with up to depending on the gallery 20% which is new about negotiable for good collectors. Why does that exist? why did why is that game constantly played? Sorry? Well, generally, like when you set a price, you put a price out on a piece of art, you as the gallery owner, you already know that you have built into that about 20% negotiable price. Why? Because Because a good collector or or just somebody who’s been in the end of in buying art for a while is just going to know that every gallery has about 10 to 20% built into the retail price that they’re willing to go down. Why do we continue to play that game? Well, I was asking this question many times, actually, to myself. I think it’s just human nature. You know, even even very rich people wants to have a feeling that they bought for a good price. And and I think it’s just about it, you know, on the other hand, for instance, I already mentioned our biggest collectors here from Czech Republic, and I sold them during last 10 years of 10s, maybe hundreds of artworks. And we will not be existing if they would not exist. And they they always ask for discount, you know, but I’m willing to give it because I know they keep coming and you built it into the price. Well sometimes there’s some time now but but it’s true that actually I have discussion with my artists Okay, let’s let’s let’s let’s have there some kind of space for negotiations, because knowledgeable people know that there is a there is a possibility to negotiate. And also you can you can see some kind of advice, some some advices in internet, how to how to buy Best Art and one of the advisors would be for sure, negotiate, negotiate, negotiate, oh, in all my years I have never once actually that’s not true. I have one time whether working for a gallery or selling my own work I’ve I’ve had one time in my entire career that they did not negotiate. Every other sale I’ve ever had has had negotiation after negotiation. But one time said the person didn’t have a problem with my price which i think i Under priced it, that’s what happened to me once was that one of my clients who also buys repeatedly, ones when he was buying as a smaller piece. I offered him a price too low. And he suggested that we might do the price a little bit higher. Which
Matthew Dols 1:05:24
client which I
Petr Hajek 1:05:25
really appreciate.
Matthew Dols 1:05:28
Okay, so and with your pricing how, what do you do? I mean, I’ve heard various different stories from various different people throughout my different times this because I’ve lived in the United States, I’ve lived in the Middle East, I now live in Europe, in the United States tradition says that the split between the gallery and the artist is 50% 50%. I’ve heard stories in the Middle East, generally, it’s been I’ve heard 4060 I’ve heard 3070. I’ve heard 5050. Here in Prague, I’ve heard a lot more 3070 splits are more common. But that’s but I’ve also heard some 5050. So what what’s what’s your belief on that you don’t have to tell me your financial choices. But you know, I’m working with 30 7040 is 4060 5050. Again, depending on on the on the artists, mountain mine mostly used ratio is four to 60. I started with 3070, I had to increase it to four to 60. Because I realized that I’m selling quite a lot of art. But I’m not able to run the gallery was 3070. So so I had to increase it. And I’m mostly working now with 4060 5050. Okay, and no way and everybody’s fine with that, and nobody like, because I’m you know, back in the day, I remember working in a gallery, and I was just manager, there wasn’t the owner. And the this this artist, you know, I don’t understand why I have to pay 50% of the gallery, why do you take half my money? And, and I was just like, I just work here. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s something that is discussed all the time. And, and of course, you know, if you are selling an artwork that is unique. And the artist knows it, you know, then actually you are willing to negotiate with the artist, what would what should be the ratio, because you want to have an opportunity to be selling it. And because you know that if you will not agree on it, the artist will be able to sell it on his own. So. So it’s always about consideration, actually, what, what is the best ratio that might work for both for you as a gallery and for the artist? Which leads to another question that like I’ve heard about and I’ve experienced a lot is the issue of like, artists who are represented by galleries selling out of their studio. Yeah, it happens quite often. I’ve heard a lot more of it here in Europe, and I didn’t necessarily notice this but but the people I knew in the United States that they generally had exclusive contracts. You know, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s quite it happened quite quot happens quite often. And I think, you know, we’ve talked about it previously, that the art market, for instance, here in Czech Republic, I think is underdeveloped, as compared to Western Europe or the US there where the art market is over developed. So when you have an overdeveloped art, art world, you need to have strict rules. And when you have an underdeveloped art world, the rules are not that strict. You know, there is a lot of oral agreements. And, and, and, and it’s again, human nature that that artists are making use of it. So you feel like right now the Czech art market is still young. I mean, it really just got out of like, you know, being ruled in and having a lot of rules being placed on it only, what, 30 years ago, I think it’s about right, 30 years, 2829 years. So I mean, it’s still very young on the international scene. And because of that, I think a lot of the businesses are don’t have that longevity, you know, I mean, there are galleries in the United States and in London and France that have been around for hundreds of years. Whereas here they’re I mean, the sort of free art art market, like the purely creative with no restrictions is really only allowed to exist here for 29 years. So it’s still got a lot of growth and a lot of potential to it. Yeah,
Petr Hajek 1:09:52
yeah. You know, when you look at number of galleries that is here, you know, in last 10 years since I’m in the business and But then there were, there were quite a few galleries coming up, you know, and, and you can, I can still see that, that there, there is still space for new galleries Actually, I’m not taking a new gallery as a competitor, I take a new gallery as a as, as, as a companion who is fighting the same battle, you know, which which is it cannot be the case in France or Great Britain or us because the art market there is already so full of galleries that every new gallery is kind of making the cake smaller. While here it’s there’s still absorption capacity for for new galleries that could come up. So you think there’s actually a lot of potential growth of the the the buyers here then more and more, I can see I can see new a new collectors coming up, you know, people who decided to build their collection. And it’s one group but but I can see a big potential in people who I call first buyers, so that people who are not collectors, but that yet, but they are financially stabilized, they have their jobs, they have their houses, flats, we can houses with empty walls, and eventually some of them actually find out that actually it’s interesting to, to live their lives surrounded with art. And and I think there’s a great potential in this type of people who are of my age, basically. And, and and who can start to be interested about art. And this is another ambition of mine to to to make the network to create as much first buyers as possible from people who were not interested in art yet. Oh, yeah, it’s very smart business idea. Because I mean, basically, you’re, you’re creating a new set of buyers who will basically grow as the as the market grows, you will, your business will grow because they will have trusted you, they will rely on you for your opinion. And as they as they grow up, they’re going to be having more disposable income and more ability and more interest and more knowledge about how to buy good art kind of thing. And so theoretically, like, basically, you’re cultivating a new set of collectors who will grow with your gallery and with your artists as time goes on. It’s a good business model for sure. Yeah. What are the downsides is that actually, as opposed to collectors who are still buying, even though they don’t have spaces for walls, these people, eventually, one day ran out of walls. So then you need to find someone else, then they can just start read, they can sell back to you, and then you can sell for them in the secondary market. That’s fine. You can continue to grow that oh, I knew we did that back in San Francisco. Yeah, we used to sell art. And then you know, five, six years later, somebody might come back and say that they want to invest in a new piece. So they need to sell this be an old piece that they bought from us in order to have the money to then buy another piece. So yeah, it’s a growth thing. It’s good. All right, so I know you’re running low on time. So how about a last question? Um, so where do you see the sort of the the whole future of the art industry as a whole? So not just you, not just the Czech Republic? But like, Where’s it all going? Is it going digital and social media as it is it’s always going to be handshakes and meeting people is there is there some dramatic shift or change that you see coming down the road,
I think there will be much more regulation because regulation as opposed to financial markets, for instance, there is almost no regulation in the art market. So So I think in a in like 1015 years in the US, there will be regulation on our market. Well, I think I think otherwise, apart from this, it will be as we see it now. You know, actually, in two days, we go to Basel to participate at volta art fair and, and we go to Basel because actually first art fair that defined contemporary art in the way as we know it, now is Art Basel actually, and this is the place where this all been shaped that actually come Nowadays contemporary art is being sold for millions of dollars and, and and the prices aren’t that high. So I think this will be the case this will continue to be the case. And people will and will in art will become commodity that people will be willing to exchange and which is good for galleries actually that and I think there will be more and more people who will be buying art. And so, I think the future is great. Marvelous, great note to end the podcast on. Thank you very much for your time. And good luck and thank you for inviting me.
Matthew Dols 1:15:48
Good luck at the upcoming Art Fair.
Petr Hajek 1:15:50
Thank you.
Matthew Dols 1:15:58
Thank you for listening. If you have any questions for me or any questions or comments that you want me to discuss with future guests, please send me an email at Matt at wise fool pod.com wi s efolpod.com. Ask them on our website wise for pod comm or any of our social media profiles on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at wise for pod. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future and assisting you in gaining more understanding of the contemporary visual art market.
The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com
All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com