Transcript for Episode 170 – Art Researcher + Auction Specialist, Suzy Sikorski, Mid East Art + Christies (Dubai, UAE)
Recorded April 12, 2021
Published May 6, 2021
Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?
Suzy Sikorski 0:15
Suzy Sikorski
Matthew Dols 0:16
you and I met? What 2014 when you came to the UAE? Is that right?
Suzy Sikorski 0:22
It was 2016. I just graduated college, I got a Fulbright scholarship to live in the United Arab Emirates, and was researching and trying to dig into the old artistry of the country. And so we were connected through mutual friends at the university. And that is where our path started.
Matthew Dols 0:49
Okay, so no, wait, take it back a step. Something I love hearing people is sort of their backstory their childhood. So how did you even get interested in Middle Eastern art? A, but B, how did you I also want to hear about how you got a Fulbright scholarship because those are astounding.
Suzy Sikorski 1:07
Yes. So to paint you a picture, I am an American from New York. I’m not from Manhattan. I’m not from the Upper East Side, West. I’m from Long Island. Capital of suburbia, I grew up there a mix between a Seinfeld and Everybody Loves Raymond. I mean, that’s my life. In a nutshell. I love it. And it’s something that I am so proud to say that I’m from there. And it’s funny when you try to put the puzzle pieces together and to backtrack, and my earliest childhood memories are sitting on my boardwalk and looking at the boats that were parked before entering the harbor, and right near JFK Airport. And that is the closest, let’s say, to an international life that I had, my mom would travel to Western Europe and would bring home you know, stuffed animals from Germany or London. But that was really, it’s what got me into the middle east was living in a post 911 culture, very honest with you, you know, earliest memories during that time, post 911 were very difficult for growing up in an area where I mean, we weren’t in Manhattan, but you had there are many friends that had family or we all may be new people that passed from 911. And it was in a way of addressing the wounds that this had caused the area where I was from, and I instead, my earliest maps in the Middle East were during this time, post 911. And I wanted to learn about the history and culture of, of the region. And it only started later, when I was in university that I had a chance to learn about Middle Eastern politics and history, took a sacred sacred text the Middle East, I took all these different courses to try and understand about the culture met people from the region and had just you know, coffee or lunches just to learn more of people from Morocco, Saudi Arabia, all over. And I only found out that Middle Eastern art was actually existing. Through my time I interned at Christie’s auction house in their post war contemporary art department early on, loved r was learning about I was studying international politics at Fordham University in New York, and ended up visiting an exhibition in Laila Heller Art Gallery in 2014. And heard an artist speaking Egyptian artists speak and it was the first time that I connected my interest in politics, history art all together, and it was like this aha moment. But this exists. And this is an actual path that I want to take. I was overwhelmed, excited, sprinkled with youth and your ambition of what you want to do in life. And it was like this was it, this is what I wanted to do. And I, the rest is history in terms of being washed up on the shores of Dubai and finding myself here, six, seven years later, and never looking back.
Matthew Dols 4:16
Okay, good overview. But let’s take a step back. Actually, one of the things I’m interested in with a lot of people is basically how did they get made? So were your parents creative? Did you have good teachers? Like what was the thing that even led you down the interest in the creative fields?
Suzy Sikorski 4:32
I would say my mom is very creative. It’s not what she does as a profession. And it’s very different. She’s an insurance but my, my mom is, was drawing, interior design fashion. I was very much well acclimated to. Yeah, I’m an interior design. I though was always so crafty. My father owned a printing company and I was actually expose that young age to all the facets of the printing industry. So I was obsessed with book making paper. Imagine as a kid, you had full access to any type of paper you wanted. I had a business card since I was like five years old. I want to be a doctor. I had a doctor business card. I had shiny holographic paper colored and I would construct homes out of paper. I mean, I made my inner imagination was through, you know, being at my father’s printing company, you know, and being able to go, if I could be assisted by an adult and go in the back and see the Heidelberg printing presses and you know, the massive cutter. I used to call it the chopper and I still don’t know what it’s actually called. But I used to say the chopper that would cut like 1000 sheets in one fell swoop and this was my playground, often called a guillotine cutter. Yeah, a guillotine cutter. Yeah, it was I still when I smell ink. I have memories of my my father’s printing in the printing company. You know, I was I felt like I was part of the crew. Sure when I smell Sherry wine or share I don’t even know cherries or watch it. When I smell Sherry, I think of church because my that’s what the wine that my dad served as a minister. He used Sherry as the communal wine. So yeah. Since memories are very strong. Yeah, yeah. All right. Wait, now you said you did an internship at Christie’s. I did an internship. It was very early on when I was just learning about arts 2013 of the fall, and I interned at the postwar contemporary art department. It was my first real exposure to art. And it was an amazing opportunity to be able to work with the team there and prepare for their sale. There was a triptych of Lucian Freud. That was sold that year. I was sick. Ironic enough. It’s always that moment. I had the flu, literally the day of that evening sale that I helped at least be part of a team to prepare for. And I was sick, which was so frustrating. There was a dog a balloon dog from Why am I drawing a blank?
Matthew Dols 7:20
Jeff Koons
Suzy Sikorski 7:21
Yeah, there was a Jeff Koons orange balloon dog that was sold. It was a really exciting and I helped write a part of the piece to a Warhol 1964 flowers. So is a very interesting exposure for me. And I won’t forget it. I worked with a team that was at the time a big couple up there was now at Sotheby’s was was there and she had told me you know, I was at the time mixed between studying in Morocco or Dubai. And it was almost a sense of just like, go for it take a chance travel and I did and I went to Sharjah for my junior year, I didn’t go to Madrid. I didn’t go to London. I went all the way to Sharjah and had the most important turning point in my professional exposure to the region in my personal life. I mean, it was like a whole coming of age in one fell swoop back in Sharjah.
Matthew Dols 8:19
So I’m sorry, I’m giggling in the background because you’re super young. And yet you’re talking about like a turning point in my career like you don’t your careers less than 10 years, right? Like you don’t really have like career understood in decades kind of career rightly, completely understand.
Suzy Sikorski 8:40
I know that my I’m still just a neophyte in the massive art industry that there is, but I will say being probably this new yorker that I’ve been working since I was out of the womb, you know, you’re just like, thrown in to the workforce right away. And I was a very ambitious student that had no idea about I had no contacts here. I started from ground zero, I started an inch introduced myself and I would work at these galleries and every way that I could I exhausted myself in learning about the scene through collaborating with galleries at art fairs and working with them to help sell pieces I would be writing in regional art magazines like Harper’s Bazaar Arabia, and I started this Instagram at the time, that was just a way to remember artists names. I mean, for me, Mohammed did not commit or not the drouin James of the US and it’s like, it was a completely different language. I wasn’t learning out I was learning our back at the time, but it was more of I mean, I was deepening French, but arbic was very new to me. So it was I really started from the beginning and being in Sharjah and studying abroad. Even just as a junior in college was extremely important, because every trip that I did make, and I remember it, you know, from my hands, these trips of introducing myself to the scene and to the artists and then writing my thesis on UAE artistry, it was like a waterfall effect of every single person I met helped me to get to where I am today.
Matthew Dols 10:23
Indeed. Now, wait, okay, go back a step, because fulbright’s, I want to get a little bit on that because I’ve had a couple guests that have gotten fulbright’s, I was aware of fulbright’s when I was in high school, but nobody really said yes, you could apply for that license. Like, I just knew they existed, but I didn’t really understand what they were. So like, from what I understand. It’s basically you apply anybody they can apply. And then they just like fund you to go and do research on whatever it is that you have a fascination with for one year or something to that effect. Is that about right?
Suzy Sikorski 10:59
Yes. So there’s an English teaching assistant Fulbright, there’s also the independent research Fulbright. And so I did the latter. I remember the pre departure orientation. When we were all together with all the fulbrighters we obviously were section within the region, Middle East was one, but you have people from all over the world. And many, many people were English teaching assistants. So they would travel to these places a lot where you were either we were Fulbright students who basically just came out of undergrad. And then you had Fulbright Scholars that were, let’s say, applying this to their doctorate and who are you know, more Well, you know, older, more experienced whatever it was. So we had the mix. But I obviously gravitated towards those that had their own independent research. And I started this idea right after I got back my junior I was in Sharjah, and then Paris, and I started to be connected to many of the different artists in the UAE. I naturally have this passion for interviewing artists for being around them and their studio learning about what makes them tick. And I could I could speak to them for hours about not only their current practice, but even about just the regional artistry. And so I realized this is an interesting topic that I wanted to explore. There was an opportunity to apply for the Fulbright early senior year. And it turned into the application for the Fulbright evolved into my thesis on UAE artistry, I was able to do a few field trips to the UAE to help put the pieces together of interviewing these artists. So that was how my senior year looked. And it was around the same time of finding out. I got the Fulbright was when I was graduating, it was very last minute everything was on edge. And I ended up getting the Fulbright, the same month that I graduated undergrad. And that was an exciting chapter, a new door opening for me. All right, so then you land in Dubai. And you were a bit lost. This is when I met you.
Matthew Dols 13:16
But you’ve pretty quickly got your sort of a sense of what you wanted to do. And you’ve ended up creating this thing. Mideast art, which is its own online digital platform. And in the process of doing that you also got yourself a job working at Christie’s in Dubai. So kudos on both, but let’s start with Mideast art. So tell us a little bit about what that is and what’s its sort of mission.
Suzy Sikorski 13:43
So as I said in the beginning, it starts started initially as an Instagram but in a way I loved Instagram because it was almost forming this archival documentation in the beginning I actually started it and would and would use like iPhone apps to Photoshop artwork in my current surroundings I would put I remember like I was laying down on my couch and putting Hagia Shafi and her works in the sky and her like circular scroll works like this was the initials like this artistic experimentation. It was my own project mind you. Fast forward to now where I was studying abroad. I’m starting to document the exhibitions I’m seeing all under the umbrella of Middle Eastern art. Once I got the fulbright’s I realized that the basis of what I wanted to do was interviewing and documenting all of these pioneer artists from the UAE and of course expanding to the Gulf region. It’s a personal interest. I do find you know, naturally the cultures are very intertwined. And for me, I loved learning and documenting about these early stories of when these art scenes were starting and the challenges and how that happens. So mini starts was a way to publish all of the research that I was doing with the Fulbright. It was a repository of the short films, I was creating the interviews I was creating the publications I was working towards in terms of writing for these regional art magazines. That was what made you start was, and then it evolved, of not only putting all this documentation, but also putting critical analysis and applying it and grounding it in regional modern art history, which was reinforced through my time working at Christie’s part of the fun of like talking and catching up with you and talking to you about this is that I, you know, I know you in a passing ish kind of way we’ve we’ve run into each other for almost a decade now kind of thing.
Matthew Dols 16:12
I would love to hear because like you are a young, a successful person in the arts, and I look back on my career, and I’m like, Oh, fuck, I obviously did something horribly wrong, because she’s way ahead of me. So as a listener to this podcast, I would be like, oh, okay, I need to listen to this person. Because they did something right. That I me as the host did wrong.
Suzy Sikorski 16:38
I can only tell you, Matthew, my ethos to how I’m living right now, you know, where I am, I left my whole family moving halfway across the world, not knowing anyone from the region, I have a distant relative in Portugal, who I could say maybe is the halfway point, but I haven’t, you know, we haven’t met, my closest relatives are New York, and New Jersey. And there is some thing, a drive in me that is keeping me here. And I can only tell you, it is an it’s not an obsession, but it is my passion. It is what keeps me here, it’s having interviews with artists, finding commonalities and cultures is what drives me. It’s what keeps me going. It’s what makes me feel this internal child and questioning, of feeling similarities or feeling curiosities, and exhausting myself in asking questions and putting puzzle pieces together. This is what keeps me feeling human. Now, you
Matthew Dols 17:52
But you said that maybe start ended up being something where you could sort of quantify some things, stored statistical data on things like this. What kind of outcomes have you gotten from that? Because for the listeners, like I also lived in the United Arab Emirates for a while. And it’s it’s a tough region to get concrete data in, like, you can get stories you can get like, Oh, you know, so and so did something at some point in the 70s kind of thing. Like, it’s very hard to get quantifiable data from, at least in the UAE. So, you know, what have you been able to sort of Garner from all your conversations?
Suzy Sikorski 18:34
Why would I mean in terms of I would say, I shy less from statistical data as more as understanding the overarching numbers like a numbers in in who was practicing art at the time. It was such as like, in terms of how you quantify the research that I was doing, particularly in the UAE. There was very few artists that were practicing artists, let’s say in the 70s and 80s. And very few women that were practicing at the time, there are and those that were like Dr. Naja, McKee, manifactured, Fatima luta. They all have very unique stories as to how they sustain and carry the momentum in their practice all and very unique in different ways. What interests me the most was understanding what made an artist successful in understanding why they were successful. Whether it was the works that the compositions that they created what they were inspired by, when I speak with many locals here, works that are more historical classical compositions of let’s just say less the kiya such as avocado race, which might not have as much demand Maybe as much demand internationally, if you look at it, putting it, let’s say, in an auction setting for now, mind you, we have in the past, and it’s been well received in many instances. But I’m telling you on a level of human connection, when you have someone from the region looking out of work that references where they were from and where their families were from, it’s an immediate connection and immediate gratification of this reminds me of my home. And so you have artists that did that. And you have had artists that did that. And then you had others like Hasson Chitty that were jumping in the deserts and using found objects and pieces from the garbage and constructing these monstrosities that actually security guards throughout the works, because they didn’t know what it was. I mean, there was a massive gap in the society of what contemporary art practices were, what performance installation, that type of work. But it’s a very interesting mix between those that prefer the traditional classical compositions versus those that like the installations and the performance, art and all of that. But I think that was most interesting. And in my thesis, for my undergrad, I really wanted to choose and pinpoint, you know, certain artists that flourished during particular times, and why based on what they were producing. So that was most interesting for me of seeing why certain artists gain more recognition during a certain time. Mohammed Carson, based on the changes of the landscape of the UAE, he started taking photographs of himself and flags behind a changing landscape of the UAE, which was interesting. And he was taught under Hassan Sharif, and was doing a lot in terms of measuring his body or or measuring himself, we just submitted Hassan did as well. But it was interesting for artists to document the changing landscape. And other color or race also did as well, in his work, when you had artists that were influenced by nature, and by their studio space was outdoors, Mohammed Ibrahim, was part of that five group that was started in the 90s. And you see many artists, such as Hassan, that used found objects and would create these almost creature like beings and be out in the mountains and using the material of the lands and their studio space was more outdoors.
Matthew Dols 23:03
Okay, but I always found it like, keep in mind, so I was there. And I was teaching my students and there was there is a difficulty with the acceptance. I don’t know if the acceptance is the right word, but appreciation slash purchasing collecting of Middle Eastern art outside of the Middle East, like it seemed like it was a very much and don’t get me wrong. Every region is sort of the same, like Americans collect American artists, Europeans collect European artists like so it’s not, I’m not sort of picking on them. But there seems to be like a push to try to make them more international, or at least internationally recognized or collected in the past, I’d say like 10 years or so. So like, is that working? Is it is it being achieved in the market?
Suzy Sikorski 23:51
Well, you have different you have the primary market, which are the galleries, which you start seeing now more recently, artists from the region being represented. And this has been something since you know, the last 10 years of galleries or more of galleries representing artists and participating in international fairs or having the satellite space abroad other than Dubai, whether it is it was in Beirut or in I don’t know, in London, New York. And many of these artists gained exposure through that, which was important. And then you had as I said, the fairs before pandemic times which are extremely, extremely important in helping make these artists be better known internationally. Christie’s and the auction houses so we started 2006 were really important in highlighting and cultivating a regional and then ultimately being an International House, a global market for these artists. It was really some of the first time that artists were being given a platform and recognition within a larger market sphere, we had our separate category of Middle Eastern art. But it was at the at the time. Now everything is more digital. But you know, you had all still these live sales, but it still was part of this larger international recognition, let’s say, of the Middle Eastern artists. And it’s definitely an important aspect when you are an artist, not only to consider local, regional, but ultimately international exposure. So I think, Now, given online and the digital enhancements that it has, the accessibility of finding an artist in Yemen, for instance, is actually easier if you’re able to have the right platform to do it. For instance, as this, let’s say, through MIDI start, I’ve now been receiving a lot of art of artists from areas that I would have never been exposed to before. I’ve had an artist in Baghdad, in Alleyne, actually, that because of the online and what I’ve been able to do and build this platform, it’s been able to attract artists and creatives that I would never necessarily have met. But I do to get back to your point of building a market for an artist and a building a platform is really essential. I think the traditional gallery model is changing, where you have artists that can showcase their works in their own Instagram and be able to attract interest in their works or potential sales just through that.
Matthew Dols 27:05
Some that’s a very hard slog to like be your own brand ambassador and run your own social media profiles. It’s Yeah, it’s an industry in and of itself, quite honestly, as far as I’m concerned. Okay, now to the thing that really fascinates me, Christie’s I have known of auction houses, probably since I was like 10 years old, because I used to see them and hear about them. My parents used to get the catalogs all this kind of stuff. How does it work? I have no idea. I’ve never I don’t think I’ve ever even had a conversation with somebody that works at an auction house. So please, like start me from stupidity, the basics? How does it work?
Suzy Sikorski 27:51
Okay, so as an auction house, we have normal in traditional times the live auction, it’s wherever he wants to be, you have mentioned catalogs, everyone remembers the catalog days of when you have it in the mail, and you look through and you flip through. And essentially, as a specialist, I am part of a greater team that works on helping to source works for the sales, as well as ultimately selling during the sale. And so
Matthew Dols 28:24
Stop, wait, wait, stop that part right there source work. Now, because I’ve heard stories, and this is why I’d like really have a fascination with it. Obviously, collectors who own prominent pieces and stuff are the ones that you want, because they’re going to bring in the most amount of money. And of course, in the end, this is all about money. So that’s the that’s one aspect. But I’ve heard stories about living artists also participating in secondary, the sales and things like this, like is it only collectors or collections that are sort of your sources? Or do you source for directly from living artists?
Suzy Sikorski 29:04
I mean, this in the past, and we’ve heard these examples with Damien Hirst, and all of these artists that have actually done it. We don’t traditionally do that. Normally, we work with collectors or galleries, or it’s essentially through the secondary, or potentially primary market that we do, but it’s never really driven through artists.
Matthew Dols 29:30
So then how do you choose? So like, so let’s say you get a selection of 100 different pieces that could be put into your auction? How do you say, Okay, these are worthy of being in the auction and these are not worthy of being an auction?
Suzy Sikorski 29:46
Like anything, there’s trends and there are certain areas or regions that people are looking at right now. Right now what is something people are looking into is the global south. I mean, it’s across the board. CSR debate that had highlighted there’s a lot looking into North Africa, Morocco, Tunisia, these areas. So you know, it’s it’s the auctions is part of a wider ecosystem of the art scene that is fueled and reinforce both by commercial and non commercial activities that there’s institutional show of an artists like firehall nieces aides at the Tate Modern, it will be a very important speaking point and aspect as to why people would want to collect works from this artists because it helps ground them within a wider, internationally recognized institution, which will essentially give value both intrinsic and extrinsic to the work of why people would want to buy it. Ultimately, if you’re buying a work at an auction house, of course, you like it, you know, you want to love the work, but it’s also a 10th of its insurance and assets, you want to invest in this, to see that ultimately, it will be in the long term, appreciating value not all the time. I mean, essentially, we are still a very young, niche, emerging market that needs a lot of time. But you would like if you’re buying a work of art from Santa Egyptian modern artists, you’re assured that what you’re paying for has strong value, because whether it’s recent prices, but also in looking at and educating yourself, and looking at like what Egyptian modern art was, to the scene and how that has impacted and formed the foundation, let’s say of modern Arab art, the same way that Iraq has, or Lebanon, these art communities and these very important artists that have been well integrated, or that we’re working alongside many important artists in Paris in London, at the turn of the century, in these modern art circles.
Matthew Dols 32:00
So your role, which by the way, tell me your exact position title these days.
Suzy Sikorski 32:06
I’m an associate specialist in Christie’s in Dubai and their Middle Eastern modern contemporary art department. We work alongside the post war and contemporary art team. And just recently, we’ve merged the categories of 2021 impressionist modern postwar contemporary art, which actually was a language we were speaking well beforehand, because our middle eastern team encompasses modern which could be early 20th century up until today, so we speak both languages I can understand impressionist modern specialists as well as post work contemporary were well integrated within the the teams that are obviously internationally speaking, in terms of working to source works, not only helping in the Middle Eastern category, but assisting other categories for works in their sales. Given that, you know, Dubai is a hub in terms of clients who might have works from different categories that they’re interested in speaking with other specialists so I could also be not only working with the Middle Eastern team, but almost as a conduit between these other departments.
Matthew Dols 33:20
Wow, so many things brought up in there. Alright. So when you Okay, so let’s go back to the let’s say you have Okay, so you had the 100 pieces that could have been in the sale for that season. you’ve edited down to how many pieces end up in your general season?
Suzy Sikorski 33:39
Depends it could be 50 6070 but at the same time, we had over 100 122 parts to a sale before I was there, but since I’ve been it’s normally under 100 Yeah, it varies.
Matthew Dols 33:57
We’ll see like okay because me I’m all I see are the press releases about the things that sell for hundreds of millions of dollars but those are more or less those are the rarity in the the auction houses Right. I mean, it’s, you know, you’ll have like 90 things in a sale that are gonna sell for moderate price points, and then you might have that one maybe two that sell for outrageous points or is it they might getting it wrong?
Suzy Sikorski 34:22
It depends. You always have a star work or two in the sale. That’s a highlight piece. You know, we had our auctions in November and did very well on two works broke the record for some you know how to be for close to half a million US dollars. And Mohammed Birla he a Moroccan artist. Both of those works did well and it was a great highlight. Other works it also well, they could go above the high estimate. So essentially, the backtracks you understand when we can sign a work with Speak with let’s say the collector who has a work and we provide a value for that work which let’s say is 100 250,000 pounds, that we decide to price the work and we put the work in the sale. This the work is part of, let’s say a 60 works sale and we help market the work we have a digital catalog, we have it let’s say in a viewing room, we help this storytelling narrate the work, which I think online has presented a very unique opportunity to really dig deep and share further texts and details about the work because when we had the physical auction catalog there was always at say a page limit we had said here to a certain page limit and now we have full rein to help share more details about the work which has actually been helpful for us.
Matthew Dols 35:57
How are those evaluations done? So like you know, I mean, a collector comes to you saying hey, I want to sell this piece they could probably say hey, I paid this much for it back then I believe it’s you know, up to now valued at this, but like how do you come to that like I’ve always wondered like those minimum bids and the or the estimated the amount of money like do Is it the collector that sort of dictates that or is it the experts at Christie’s that dictate that
Suzy Sikorski 36:27
it’s a mix of different factors for us to value a work of course you want to know the purchase price that the collector paid for the work you want to know the primary market for the artist if it’s a living artist or even you know a deceased artist in terms of what their normal their price points are from galleries and you also want to take into account recent sales of what recent comparable works are selling in the past sales across the board across all different auction houses take into advantage the you know the economic situation at a time or getting a feel for overall the appetite of what people would be paying for of the work
Matthew Dols 37:17
so walk me through a day in your life so the life of a I forgot your full title because it was ridiculously long
Suzy Sikorski 37:24
associate specialist
Matthew Dols 37:26
Thank you, Dan life of an associate specialist at Christie’s what do you do sit around have coffee chat with some artists maybe meet a few collectors.
Suzy Sikorski 37:35
And I wish the artists were part of it but the artists is like after Christie’s because my normal interactions are rarely with artists for Christie’s is more of my Mideast art life, I deal a lot with we you know work with building the sales reviewing works, we could consider doing valuations. There’s a little there’s different aspects to how auction houses function, we have our auctions that we do we have private sales, we do valuations for clients who let’s say have a multi category valuation, and we provide the package valuation for the client. So the normal day in the life is never the same. It’s constantly running on international time zones. So it can get pretty interesting in terms of the day to day, I’m constantly plugged into London, which luckily is now a three hour time difference. But London, New York, even the west coast in the US, and also even sometimes Hong Kong. So it’s a constant roller coaster of dealing with different time zones speaking with clients about works, you know, speaking internally with with the team’s understanding, gaining insight of the market meeting, of course, with gallery owners, going to fairs normally and doing work field trips to these different areas in the normal circumstances before COVID was extremely important to understand the different micro markets or the different regions going to Beirut going to his stumble going to Cairo, Kuwait behind these are all places that essentially post currency were really, really important in terms of gaining insight into what’s happening, you know, that are in these different countries. There is no set schedule to my days. It’s very much in terms of if I have to. First of all, I run on international clock because speaking with clients and colleagues that are all over the world, this is my life. It’s a rollercoaster of dialogue that’s, you know, from London to Paris, Hong Kong, New York, Los Angeles, and and all in between. I do a lot of time. of obviously, a very important part is preparing for upcoming auctions, working on, you know, different projects that we’re doing with the teams working on, let’s say valuations or private sales. It’s non exhaustive in terms of what I’m sharing too. It’s there’s there’s so many different projects that we’re doing. But of course, with auctions, we always have that set goal of when the auctions will be right now or upcoming sale will be in October. So we’re planning on building for the October sale right now and of course, with other different related projects. So that’s a normal day in in life, there’s a lot of different overlapping, busy angles, at all angles.
Matthew Dols 40:49
Okay, but wait, so you said your last sale was in November, and you’re saying you’re working towards the October so yeah, so one sale for you could take up to a year to prepare for or longer?
Suzy Sikorski 41:02
Well, we had initially when I started had two sales per year. And now we’ve changed in terms of changing our strategy and what we’re doing, and having right now one sale per year with different projects that we’re going to be working on.
Matthew Dols 41:21
I’m going to ask a stupid question based on the idea that I’m Joe Schmo in the general public. And I see like, let’s say, the Salvador Mundi, whatever, you know, selling and then there’s always this thing of like, oh, it sold for this much. And there’s this sell this auction fee, this nature of this auction fee. Now I want to start with, I understand where that comes from, I get it. So like, I am no way questioning it. But I would imagine that a lot of people in the world are like, What the fuck is this, like 20% that’s added on to the end of the whole thing? Do you have a way that you could sort of explain why that exists for people that maybe don’t understand it?
Suzy Sikorski 42:04
Well, I mean, in a way people come to Christie’s because we have accessibility to clients that they might not have the ability to sell the work to, we’re a marketplace at the end of the day. So people entrust their works with us in the assurance that we will market it to the right targeted people, we will, we will present it in a very beautiful way. We have our catalogs that normally our physical catalogs, we promote and discuss the works, we help give it value. So that it’s like this reinforcing idea of of collectors. And all people involved in this, it’s like a communal effort to help build the market, especially of a very emerging market to build and grow a platform for the market. So in terms of why the premium would be added, that’s a way of looking at it, you know, we’re helping in terms of marketing the work and finding a targeted buyer on a specific date during mean like you can be assure that by consigning in this sale, it you will hope that the work does sell because of course there are times when the work doesn’t for different reasons. You know, there’s a whole factors in play, but more or less you you know that at that time, that is when the work will sell.
Matthew Dols 43:29
beyond that. It’s just also like you will have overhead, you have to pay to have it designers design these online catalogs, they have to pay your salary, they have offices that you have to pay for an air conditioned and do all these things to meet your business. And if the sale price is the sale price, you still it’s like you still have to make some money and you can’t take it out of the sale price or people won’t appreciate that. So like, I get it a documentary, you know, so like, I’m on your side. But a lot of people I talked to her like, what is this extra thing? And I’m like, it’s not an extra thing. It’s just a thing that’s there. It’s the price of doing business is really what it is,
Suzy Sikorski 44:07
no
Matthew Dols 44:09
matter the start. Alright, so the first thing that when I think about your work in the middie start so you’re from New York, you simply have an interest in let’s call it Middle Eastern art. You ended up in the UAE why the UAE like there are some other great historical rich cultures in the Middle East. Why the UAE as this this sort of focus of this?
Suzy Sikorski 44:33
Well, it was it was to be honest. I spoke with a professor, a professor when I was right before I was about to go and I told her my dream was to work in the market and I actually years ago wanted to always be a specialist at an auction house and I told her about it. I was supposed to live in Morocco. And she ended up saying it’s better to go to Dubai. It’s the hub for at least the market of the region. And you could always go to Morocco. But in terms of understanding the greater market of play, go to Dubai. So I did, and that’s where I met. But I didn’t go to the I went to Sharjah, because the only school affiliated with the UAE was a US in Sharjah. And so that’s how it all happened. But I wanted to share another aspect of what middie starts is, because the digital component, and how I’ve curated my stories and how I’ve cultivated a personality, I find now through the many projects and the curated posts that I’ve done on the Instagram itself, I have a website component, people really feel like they know me. And it’s probably the same way as you, when you listen to your podcasts as I’ve done, you feel like you have a sense of who this person is. And for me, people who I have started to be in contact with recently, they feel like they’re like, we love what you do, we know exactly what fuels you your storytelling, you’re creative, and you’re crafty, and, and how I run mini start is essentially through storytelling. And I have a lot of different posts that I do, featuring artists from the modern times and old archival photographs helping to educate and form a narrative and an archive of the older art scene. I do studio visit features where I show an artists in their studio with a quote from the artist, I did a big quarantine series during the whole pandemic, sharing just artists and their quotes of whatever they wanted to share. I do posts that are combining Middle Eastern and Western artists and finding parallels visually and conceptually in their works. It feels itself you know, it’s like a constant archive that’s building on my current research that I’m doing and my time at Christie’s to get back actually helps build a foundation for my knowledge of artistry of the region, understanding who are the most important artists and collectors who have helped be patrons for the artists, both regionally and internationally. So this has helped form a basis for me to really be critical and understand what is good art, both from our world from Iran, the diaspora. And it’s really important, and it has formed a good way for me to identify and put feelers out as to which artists that we should really be looking into which artists that were traveling abroad, well informed of the International art scene, but also addressing very immediate local concerns of their respective communities in Damascus and Casablanca. in Baghdad, in Dubai. Since the 60s 70s,
Matthew Dols 48:25
you brought up a point that I have been harping on since I was teaching in the UAE, which is when I had my students I used to I my students were all female, Mr. Ortiz, so just a basis for those listeners. I always had an issue with the fact that when they put their work out into the public, they would define it, they would self define it as Muslim, female art. And so I have this question, because like you just said, what makes good art. But yet it’s I feel like and this is not, again, not specific, just to the Middle East, because people are doing this all over the world, where they are saying, I’m a queer American artists or ima, whatever, you’re giving these little subcategories of things. Like, why is it that like, let’s say, in this case, because I’m talking to you, Middle Eastern art needs that additional thing of saying, not only is this good art, but it’s good Middle Eastern art.
Suzy Sikorski 49:33
For me, when you read and research a lot of these older artists from the region, they did not want to be categorized, they did want to understand maybe what forms the basis of art from their regions understanding how do they blend their experience in formative years studying in Paris or London and then coming back and trying to apply their cultural and Indigenous roots within the work that they’re producing that might also be of a language that could be interpreted internationally. These were the debates that were going on when these artists returns when they came back to Beirut or to Baghdad, to Cairo. And it’s interesting, because I mean, many of these artists writings that I’m reading, we’re very open minded, and did not want to be boxed and put in a box of, I want to be labeled this way. At the same time, though, why, let’s say with a category like us in Middle Eastern art, we need an a way to help build and cultivate the regional art scene. And you cannot just do it from zero to 100. And throw in these artists that have not, let’s say, had a sustained yet continued market within the region. And so that’s
why,
let’s say the Middle Eastern art category is so important right now to help build on, you know, that’s that’s reinforcing, fostered by growing scene within the region. It’s tough.
Matthew Dols 51:09
I mean, I’m not. It’s not a light conversation, because
Suzy Sikorski 51:14
it’s not this is not a light conversation.
Matthew Dols 51:17
At this point. It’s turned kind of dark. Yeah, no, but it’s fine.
Suzy Sikorski 51:20
But why? Because I’m Chris, I, it’s not easy, Matthew. It’s not easy. Like,
Matthew Dols 51:27
it’s not easy. But I mean, the tough questions are the most interesting questions. How do you take something that is sort of self segregating? Like, it could be anybody, it could be a Berlin artist, a Norwegian artist, and African artists that sort of self segregate saying, I’m an African, you know, what are a Ugandan, this kind of thing. So like, I have this issue of like, I, okay, let me take you back a step, I have this issue that says, the arts world is already a niche thing, in the grand scheme of the whole world, then within that niche of just people who either produce or collect or interested in the arts, then we start segregating ourselves even more, so only people that either produce or make Asian art, or African art or Americans art, whatever. And then even within that we get more segregated, like feminist art, or black art or whatever, like, and I personally feel that that is detrimental to the art world as a whole, because we’re already small, and that what we’re segregating ourselves even more, I would love to see us try to simply find a way to be more on merit of like, it’s good art, period, I don’t care if it’s good art from Europe, or Asia or Africa. It’s good. It’s skillful, it’s, you know, quality, the concepts or whatever. But we seem to be adding more layers of separation, by giving all these additional elements of like, like now, like, I have to define myself as like a what a Sis, man, I don’t even know what the thing is. But, you know, there are all these extra things. And I feel like it’s hurtful to the art world to continue to do this kind of stuff. But I’m a utopian kind of person, like I want us all to get along. Now, that’s my two cents. Thank you.
Suzy Sikorski 53:33
It’s interesting. But I find my posts of combining Middle Eastern and Western has really been exciting for viewers, but also me, because it’s allowing me to find the commonalities and the aesthetics. Maybe they they, they studied at the same school, they’re inspired by the same artists, they’re speaking the same language. And I would literally put these posts and as I do, the cooling knee necktie, I would always I will always start with the Western artists, I always do because in a way of saying like, you should meet him, not yet I should meet him. You know, I want to ground it in a way of saying this is a Middle Easterners that you should look at the Kooning. I do a lot with music. At the end of the day. As I said earlier, I’m an American, and I cannot negate my American culture. And if I’m listening to a song with Bob Dylan, or Crosby, Stills and Nash, it will always remind me of the fact that I am from New York. And when I’m looking at a work, for instance, I posted a picture of an Egyptian artists have another and I thought of Michael Jackson right away. I’m not going to try and force myself to think of something else because when I look at it, I’m thinking of getting Dancing and grooving to beat the Michael Jackson and playing this go in my apartment and feeling like I’m a kid again on the beach with my family. And there’s a deeper feeling and sensation to these posts that I’m doing, particularly the eastern and western because for the first time, I feel like I’m part of the conversation, because it can be really difficult. Not coming from the region, being an outsider on the, on the periphery, and how it’s been five years I’m living here now almost, how do I feel relevant? How do I feel related, and part of this, when I am not from the region. So to get back to it, it’s normally a very emotional feeling to post these which would cast sounds crazy. I mean, you post something. And it’s it’s like a, it’s like a very meditative process where I posted it. I listened to the song afterwards that I played. And it it gets me really emotional, it gets me really in a different headset, where it’s for the first time combining both worlds. And people comment on the song they love it and, and normally and ironic enough, many of the songs that I choose were produced right around the same time that the artwork was produced could be in the 60s 70s 80s. So that’s a recent Avenue or direction that I started to look into. And as I said earlier, even with mini star, it’s doing a lot of critical analysis and review of modern art from the region. And so I did this whole quarantine series and I did this whole write up on mgf platoon who was actually in jail in the 50s in Egypt. And I felt like I was in my own prison cell during the quarantine. I talked about Hassan Sharif in his performance works. And I felt like I was doing this conceptual Fluxus inspired performance in my old apartment looking not all of the floor boards and I felt like I was measuring myself and so what attracts me now more than ever is feeling a part of the conversation feeling like what my sensation and what I sense matters. And my participation in this appreciation of the work whether it’s through music through writing, I creative writer, I have books that I’ve written personally sharing this, I sometimes feel like I’m internalizing an artist deep down. Because the girl that was creating miniature books when I was a kid is still the same today. And if I’m stressed, I create books, like many books. Nice.
Matthew Dols 58:09
Okay. Two quick questions the Do you have your own art collection
Suzy Sikorski 58:14
ironic enough only of artwork that artists have gifted me nothing yet which is coming at a good point because I do feel like I want to start investing maybe to work on paper, something small, which I do feel I want to invest in and work on paper because it’s a very intimate process. It’s a very delicate material that I would like to and more or less the price point is always a bit less than work on canvas. So it has its its but there is the sense of intimacy when you have work on paper.
Matthew Dols 58:53
I’m I believe that a works on paper is the sort of the the entry level for starting to collect because it’s it’s more affordable and generally you can get something from a bigger named artist that that is a better price point. Yeah, I mean, same with photography versus like paintings or sculptures kinds of things. also works on paper and tree level kind of stuff. Nuts and Bolts I want to hear Okay, so you are a full time employee at Christie’s but but you have this liberal college at this moment, passion project of Mideast art, how do you find the time or the funding to be able to pull that off because a lot of people in the world you know they have great ideas but it’s being able to allocate or choose to put that time and that energy into it. What’s your rationale slash funding model for that?
Suzy Sikorski 59:51
The secret recipe? I think since getting my Fulbright and being here on my own having to schedule my days When no day was the same building something from the ground up, being creative about it has helped me and I think with the Fulbright, and with the quarantine, I almost just reverted back to my Fulbright self, I was able to be on my own and be in a room and figure out what I wanted to do. And map out projects that I wanted to do interviews with artists I wanted to do, mapping out collaborations with different art institutions doing maybe podcast series, or I did it with the UAE Embassy in Washington, DC, a artists interview for part discussion with interviewing artists during this time. I’m very curious, and how I find the time and as I started earlier, it is my passion, Matthew, and so I will always make time for it. It’s not something that, you know, it’s like another job. It’s it’s part of me and the friends I make and the people I surround myself with are part of this our community in one way or another. They appreciate arts, they are artists or curators. So there is no right way of telling you how I’m scheduling my Mideast art. If I feel like I want to share it to my audience, what I’m feeling I’ll craft a story. There is no I wish it was easier said than done. And I’ve tried it of saying Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays, I’m going to do this at this hour. And I’m going to know like it’s there’s so much chaos to the days, especially getting out of this instil semi quarantine. But I will be honest, I mean, there was a point. It was a rough patch. After I got back, my father had COVID, who’s doing okay now. But I really sought connection and dialogue with people and I started to post questions on my Instagram. Literally, what is missing in the art world? Or what are your top three works that you’d want to invest in? Or you know, whatever it was, it was interesting questions you’re out on, you want to have dinner with an artist who is deceased or living, who would you want. And the amount of interaction people really engaged with the content. And it was interesting. And so I’m at this point, just experimenting with what gap needs to be filled. What’s missing in the art scene? Maybe it’s critical discourse or questioning? Or am I doing this right? or? Yeah, as a perfect example, I mean, people the people connection and asking these basic questions that are not being addressed. And so I want to help form a community of people, both from the region and internationally, that are also asking the same questions.
Matthew Dols 1:03:15
All right, so what are the future plans,
Suzy Sikorski 1:03:18
I want to build further enmity start, want to interact with artists and start speaking, and having discussions of artists and artists together and be part of the creative process and actually feel like I’m part of the conversation. When artists are producing their works and being part of their inner process and helping, it’s like I want to be part I want to be in the studio digitally. Now. When they’re producing art, I want to be part of that conversation. Mind you, it’s a very intimate demand. You know, studio space is a very private space. But I have been blessed with connections with artists that have invited me or feel comfortable with me being part of this very private process of producing art. So going forward. I want to build on these conversations with helping artists meet other artists or helping artists meet. collectors are helping artists meet other artists from around the world, and helping widen their exposure and their understanding. And they’re building a network and a community of people that are interested in learning about artists from the region. It’s all based on the focal point of the regional scene and then sharing this both in terms of the contemporary practices as well as the modern artists. Three, which is something that needs a lot of work and tender loving care and helping share and showcase the breadth and diversity of the regional modern artistry here.
Matthew Dols 1:05:16
Well, the reason why I ask is because I remember at one point there was a conversation with you about like making a book of the history of the arts in the UAE. And I, and I’m wondering whether or not since that conversation, which was many years ago at this point, that whether it’s transitioned, is it more about videos and recorded conversations versus some sort of like tangible book product?
Suzy Sikorski 1:05:41
Of course, the book has been on my mind since the first time we spoke.
But I’ve gone through many iterations of when I want this to be published. And when, when do I feel my research and my outlook and insight is mature enough to indoctrinate it within this book right now. And as we all are transitioned to the digital world, I feel right now my preferred medium is posts online, because it’s an easier way to get it across rather than wait to publish a book. I’m not negating the fact that a book is on my radar. But I do feel right now, I’d be more keen to consider like a digital ebook. That’s a smaller book, versus doing a massive research book right now. I just didn’t as I said, I just don’t feel I feel like every threshold that I’m crossing now is opening up 10 more questions or interests that I would be interested in looking at. If you spoke with me five years ago, I would have wanted to just highlight my interviews with artists from the UAE, then it evolved to artists from the Gulf, then the region. Now I’m interested in building bridges between artists from Asia, and Syria, and Syria, to London, to Berlin to New York, you know, like it’s changing in terms of what is interesting me. And as I said earlier, what’s very important is that sense of feeling relevant and part of that
dialogue.
Matthew Dols 1:07:29
So, could you give me three names of contemporary artists that you think are noteworthy or that you’re watching these days?
Suzy Sikorski 1:07:39
Three artists that I would recommend people to follow made the Abdullah Mr. artsy artist based in Abu Dhabi. She deals a lot with painting but also with mixed media and tries to channel the inner subconscious inner fantasies within her works. She’s running with a bunch of other artists in Abu Dhabi, Bates 15, which is like an artists incubator homegrown, to help build and bridge the gap with artists connecting with other artists made Jordan Nasir Palestinian believe Palestinian Polish artists that is dealing with embroidery in his work, he’s based in New York, and is utilizing the Palestinian patrese stitch, the cross stitch that you actually stitch in his works, I did a visit with him and it was really interesting to be there. And instead of paints and paint tubes, it was embroidery and stitches and fabric. And he actually helped fund a lot of Palestinian women in Palestine and helping to produce these beautiful stitches and fabric in his work. So that there are beautiful pieces. And there is you know, sometimes he explores, you know, they almost remind me that I had known the Lebanese artist and the the horizon and landscape works that she does was a very important modern Lebanese artist, Samia halaby. Of course, she’s one of the modern Palestinian artist who is one of the most important in abstract painting, and she’s based in New York. I’ve done a lot of studio visits with her so she’s she’s an important one to, to take a look at.
Matthew Dols 1:09:41
Marvelous last question. I asked everybody, some advice for the next generation.
Suzy Sikorski 1:09:48
I guess, for artists career advice, keep practicing every single day. Like an artist that designates time For artmaking, sparingly throughout the week, from my conversations and from my learning about those, it’s it’s an impulsive part of you being an artist. And so in every way, I just had a conversation with artists just before this, they scribble thoughts on on receipts, they’re thinking about work and their dreams, and they’re daydreaming, and it’s it’s part of their life. It’s like a job, you know, and so treat it seriously as if it were your job. So, practice every day. Question your work and see critique from other people don’t box yourself in, there is a fine line between boxing yourself in and then showing others and then being Of course, influenced by others. But there is also a very important part of having critical analysis of works from people who, let’s say are well informed, and who could look at your work and say a quote constructively critical comments that will help you think differently about your work. So don’t box yourself in.
Matthew Dols 1:11:17
Marvelous. Thank you very much.
Suzy Sikorski 1:11:20
Thank you. Working
Matthew Dols 1:11:24
in the arts world, is a marathon more than a sprint. And oftentimes, a lot of things that seem like they’re not so important, actually are incredibly important later. And that’s what I’m here to ask you for. We’ve learned that star ratings and reviews on the podcast platform through which you’re listening are very powerful and influential as to getting us more listeners and more listenership. So I would greatly appreciate it, if you would take a second, give us a star rating, give us a comment. It could be something nice, it could be something critical, that’s fine. We’re good with critical feedback. You hate my stories, I get it, that’s fine. Some of them are really bad. But by doing that, what you do is you end up making it so that we will have more listeners, we have more listeners, then we get more guests, we get more guests, you learn more information and knowledge. So this will benefit you directly, if you would just take a second and give us a star rating or review. And we would greatly appreciate it because it will help all of this entire ecosystem. So thank you very much.
The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com