Transcript for Art Forger, David Henty (UK)

Recorded June 22, 2021
Published July 29, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/art-forger-david-henty-uk/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

David Henty 0:10
They don’t sell very many paintings. But because they haven’t got yet you need to have the extra. I mean, I’ll call it a bit of front, you know a bit of a thing. Otherwise people just not interested. You know, today I’m really busy. I’ve just got a film. They’re making a film and they’ve asked me to do 10 paintings for a film

Matthew Dols 0:30
burnout.

David Henty 0:31
I’ve got two Commission’s in, and I’m meeting someone tomorrow about another big commission. So you see, my brothers are equally as good as me when it comes to painting. They haven’t got that, you know, what makes things happens, you know that, you know, I think that’s what you need as an artist.

Matthew Dols 0:47
When is it a little bit of like a hustler mentality? Or is it like a branding of the salesmanship? Like what what kind of like thing? Have you figured out?

David Henty 0:58
Well, when I came out as such, I was outed as a forger. Which I sat down and thought I’ve done my own work and stuff before and couldn’t sell it. Yeah, I struggled to sell it for 200 pounds. You know, a painting took me a week. You know, I’ve got a really good piece. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, but it’s one of yours. You haven’t got a name. So you can’t sell it. That was the problem. When I came out. I’ve got outed as a forger. There happened a couple of times, or three times are seen, but because I kept going back to it, um, you know, on eBay, and different, you know, auctions or stuff. But I realized that, you know, I’ve made them newspapers, and I’ve made the TV stations and stuff. So what I did was I capitalized on that. And I’ve used that ever since. And instead of saying, I’m a copyist artist already, I’m a forger. Because there’s only about four of us in the country, I think known. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know, tough boy. But the thing is, you see, you see you slim down the field. And then it’s easier to get yourself noticed. My sister is a best selling author. And she sells a lot of books, but she hasn’t got time to do her publicity. She hates doing it because it takes away from her creativity. Amen. Yes, I agreed. That’s exactly a side of me. But I have a my wife, who does all the PR and all the answers emails, and I wish I wish, yeah. Because it’s very difficult to change hats to be an artist fully immersed in creating and then change that to be becoming a hardline business person.

Matthew Dols 2:40
You know, that that’s the difficulty is some people Picasso was a great salesman, that Damien Hirst was, is a great salesman, you know, and the certain people that it fits really well, with other people with their struggle, were like Damien Hirst, he actually came from the business world and said, Oh, you know what, I think I can do this art thing. And so he came to came to it with a pre existing skill set, basically, that most creative people just don’t have. I mean, I always say that, like the people that come into the creative industries, do it because we don’t want to work in the business world. Like, that’s why we get creative. And yet, in the end, we actually have to be creative, we have to be business people as well.

David Henty 3:23
I think I find it difficult, I must say, but I like having brainstorming sessions with different people about how to get your products out there. I find that interesting, but that’s when I’m not painted on it. So I try and sort of do I get up early in the morning and I like to get about six and I like to get a few hours in every day. And I paint every single day. And then you know in the afternoons or something I can relax and we can meet or meet my friends or my brothers You know, my sister and we can throw ideas about Yeah, then you’re not taking away from that creativity. Because in the mornings is nice and quiet. You know? My wife still snoring in bed.

Matthew Dols 4:06
Many artists have like a time of day that works best for their creativity these days. I’m a morning person in my youth I was a night person it changes

David Henty 4:15
Yeah, exactly. I used to paint late at night and now I can’t do it because I can’t function the next day

Matthew Dols 4:23
could function but it’s just it’s you know, it’s just I find that like mornings are really really great for focus because like the day hasn’t put it sort of weight on you for whatever you know, whatever that is for phones the emails haven’t locked blacked up the errands haven’t suddenly been like oh my gosh, I gotta go do this. Like Yeah,

David Henty 4:44
yeah. But I find it I teach it was story when I was forging and this is to do with the art world is an I bought a painting at Ford market, which is an open air, big car boot sale and all the dealers have been there. There was a little steel life there for three pounds. Not even a fiver three pounds. And it was still life anyway, so I bought it and I thought I use the canvas. I’ll overpaint It was a 1930s 40s. Still a bit quirky still life. So I paid the three pound. I bought it and I was going to paint over it. And I was looking at a catalog. And it just so happened. This was a catalog and it had the blooms breeze. And the blooms preset, Vanessa Bell, Duncan grant, and those sitting, I was looking at myself, Wow, that looks like a Vanessa bell. Still Life. It’s got that off sort of center. It was a funny sort of thing, but quite quirky, from the 1930s, which she was. And so I thought, same, I’ve got bit of acetate. And I took the signature off or repainted the painting. And then I put the signature back in, I just put the initials Vb 34. I put it in the paints, if you look for a magnifying glass, it looks like the paint is moved, because I repainted that bit in you know touched it in, in my way to dried, abolished it back over and stuff. I’ll put it on an auction site. I’ve got 700 pound for it straightaway. Because it had Vbi on it not because of the picture, not because of the thing. And then it ended up in a gallery in London for I think it was six or 7000. But it was still the same three pound painting that I bought.

Matthew Dols 6:25
The entire art industry is utterly fascinating to me for just this kind of reason, which is basically it’s not merit. It’s not quality. It’s none of those things it seems to be it’s a sort of cult of personality, or skill and branding or marketing. And that’s the kind of stuff that makes people successful, which I find difficult.

David Henty 6:48
Yeah, I’ve heard 1000 times. I mean, I used to buy a lot of paintings, and seven. And I’ve got a really good memory for styles. So I can see a picture looks like sand. So well that looks like a Duncan grant, or that looks like an Irish artist. I’ve done it so many times that he was a lazy man’s ways of forging. So I bought another picture One day, my brother bought this little Irish scene. So it was a small payment he bought it for because there are antique dealers, or people from anywhere. I said, I said you want to come in house with it. Would you mean to buy it off? Yeah. He said no, no, give me 100 pound he said you can take it. So I paid him 100 pounds. I took again, I took the signature off. I put another signature on an Irish I well known Irish is that I mentioned it because I probably might get in trouble. From the 50s 60s. I’ll put the name when I check into a local auction. And they say bear in mind, I gave my brother 100 pounds. And he had a 70 pound profit. I took it in now just so I’ve got this little page any good. So yes, it’s about 1000 to 1500 pounds. So I’ll put it in there, they made the top estimate 1500 pounds. The point again, is if the same picture that everyone had looked over, it just had a different brand, a different mark on it. I’ve never actually touched the picture or put a finger in or you know, altered the picture at all. Yeah, change any colors to get. It was just saying digit. And when I say I’ve done it 1000 times, I’ve done it 1000 times, you know?

Matthew Dols 8:25
Okay, and this is a question that I was wondering about you, which is these days, like you just did it a second ago where you said like, Oh, I’m not going to talk about this thing? Because I might get in trouble for it. Is it still like, I’m not here? I don’t know all of your exacting legal history and all this kind of stuff. But like, Are there still works of art that you that are out there that you did, quote unquote, that like you could somehow be still be arrested for or some sort of legal issues that could go rise?

David Henty 8:56
Not really No, I mean, I took advice from a solicitor who was a friend of mine, on how to sell, so I sell the same way as Christie’s or Sotheby’s. So I always put is sold, because there’s no provenance I’m selling strictly in the style of, after all school have their artists. So they will put, you know, might put LS Lowry as the header, which gets people’s interest at the bottom, it’s got a little caveat, because you have no paperwork or gallery provenance. This is sold as after we’re in the style of and that’s why that when I got outed, and I’ve been going at it for about four or five years, and I was making fantastic money. The police couldn’t actually do anything to me because I put always put that caveat.

Matthew Dols 9:44
Okay, but what I’m saying is like I’m saying some of the stuff from way back when when you were technically forging, let’s say like you’re doing blatant forgeries kind of thing. Like, are there still some of those out there that I mean, well, but the bigger question For me, it was always because whenever I see interviews with foragers and things like that, they’re always like, Oh, I can’t talk about that. Or I went to this auction, and I saw a piece of mine, but I didn’t say anything. So like, Are there still potential legal concerns that so you like, you get certain things you can’t talk about? Still?

David Henty 10:18
I don’t think so. Because I, I did take advice, you know, and, and I know, I’m on that side of the law, because an eBay, for instance, they said, there was a big article in The Telegraph. And they had contacted the police. And the police had said, there was nothing to see there, you know, nothing that nothing could do. I’ll tell you another story. And one day I was at Lewis auction, and I was, I had some stuff on eBay. And I bought it from a friend of mine, Billy to brush. He’s a forger as well. I’ve done quite a few bits within some I had one of his pieces on my site. It was an Indian artist, and Susan, and Emma had it on their cinema. I had it on there, you know, in the style of boat when the car boot sale, blah, blah, blah, you know, so I was just in the auction, and I got a phone call from Michelle ryecroft of the antiques squad. And she phoned me up and said, You’ve got a painting, we’ve had a complaint, because it is genuine is worth about 80,000 pounds will receive a stolen a forgery of it, because you’ve got it on the you know, on an auction, you know, with a 10 pound start price, although it was going up. Anyway, so I said to her, I said, Well, if it’s causing offence, I’ll take it off. You know, I’ll take the listing off. And she said, Well, you haven’t got to do that. Because you haven’t done any wrong, the way you’ve listed it is correct. She said, but if I see you this without that caveat, I’m going to come on Nick here. She’s going to come and arrest me. So I got you know, countless from the antiques what, from the top thing to say, yeah, you know, you what you’re doing is within the law. So for me, that was like a green light. So we, we just carried on, you know, but I will take that the upside of that is I get all the catalogs from Christie’s Sotheby’s Barnum’s Phillips, the British art, mainly British 20th century, because they’re the easiest to forge, then why is it? Okay, because the materials basically, I was gonna say, Why are they the easiest to forge? Yeah, because because you can still buy the boards and the canvases of that period quite cheaply, basically. And the materials, you know, there’s the same that they will be used, you know, I’m always in the car boot sales. If I see a box of paints, you know, from the 40s, or 50s, or 60s or 70s. I’m on it, you know, as a buyer, you know, and then I’ve got boxes and boxes of paints, and led wire, and all different colors like that, which I don’t do anymore. But the upside of this is when I get the catalogs, I look for them, you know, just for reference and stuff. And then and I think, yeah, that is one of mine. Oh, let’s come through. So people start these dodgy people somewhere, or taking these pictures in there. They thought were you know, they bought as after or in the style of, they’ve taken them in, they put them into an auction. Once they’re in the system. That’s it, they’ve got auction provenance, and they’ve got a lot of their own. Which is always amazed me here. It’s pretty well, okay, but

Matthew Dols 13:17
what how can you tell it to yours and not inauthentic? That

David Henty 13:21
that little quirks, you know, sometimes there was a certain artist that I did

Matthew Dols 13:27
that you’re not going to tell me but it’s fine.

David Henty 13:31
Isn’t it when he was from Devon and Cornwall way mousehole, it’s quite well now that he’s not in the super bracket. He makes four or 5000 up to 10,000 15,000. Yeah, when you start doing van Gough’s or they obviously you draw a lot of attention, but the four or five grand ones, three grands, well, they just slip through there. Well, I still like doing him. He was a school teacher in Brighton at one stage in his career, I have to see my pictures come up, you know, it’s quite funny and, you know, recognize it because of the subjects you know, and then but they go through, you know, they’ve got a life of their own now. You know, good luck to him. I say but someone’s benefited, you know, it’s not an easy the artist.

Matthew Dols 14:15
Okay, but do you like have like a ledger that like upon your death, at some point, it suddenly will come out saying like, yep, I made all these fakes.

David Henty 14:22
Now Now, you know, I don’t even keep photographs or records. When you are an artist, you know, I mean, I’m more.

Matthew Dols 14:31
I’m horrible at it. Horrible.

David Henty 14:33
Yeah, I’m more interested in I get excited about an artist who I see a picture. And I think I like that, you know, and I want to I did that. So I create it or create a replica or, or a version. You know, change it around. And for me, that’s more of the fun is that creative process. Once I’ve done it, I discard it basically, and move on to the next thing that takes my fancy and then I got Oh yeah. I love that. You know how he’s And those colors are how he’s laid that out. I wonder if he’s done that. So yeah, so, so I’m not very particular about my work. Not very precious about it. Fair enough.

Matthew Dols 15:10
But I have a question going back though, like, okay, so childhood and stuff because you said that you’re you have two brothers who are painters, you have a sisters who’s an author, like what Emily was this that you were raised in that sort of created so many creative people.

David Henty 15:23
That’s for my brothers. I’ve got four brothers and a sister, the sister shady stragglers, she’s always number one. In the paranormal, she writes paranormal books. I think she got about 20 books out. But she knocked Stephen King off the top spot a little while ago. So she’s right up there. But, but to my brother’s antique dealers, they they buy watches, especially jewelry and silver, and my younger brother day, and he’s an artist, and you’d recognize the style anywhere. But it’s, unfortunately, him is not a saleable star, which is again, which is such a shame, because he’s got that thing where you can recognize his work is full of angst and pain is a manic depressive, but it just doesn’t sell. You know, my brother, Steve is a fantastic draftsman. when he was a kid, he used to copy Michelangelo drawings. So he’s got that type of brain. Again, he hasn’t got a name in the art world. So he struggles to make money. So I cut him down quite quickly. From my various when I change the names, and I did it years and years ago, you know, it’s funny that years ago, I bought a painting. When there was no computers, there was the old Lyles antique books, you know, an art book, I bought a painting when there was a Dutch interior scene. And I saw there was by the artist I had was there, you know, 500 pounds. But the same sort of genre by another artist was a few 1000. I just took the name, took the name of put the other name on, I put it in the years ago, you know, I realized a long time ago, this is not how good you are. It’s not anything else is about your name. Your name sells people by names, you know,

Matthew Dols 17:17
sadly, I’ve been aware of this for decades, like I’ve always known because, like my early professors used to say things like it’s your reputation, your name is your reputation, your reputation is everything. And I understood that part of it. But I didn’t understand the other side of it. So like, there’s one thing like to yourself, like my, my artwork and my expressiveness and my style is mine, that’s my reputation. It’s tied with my name, like I get that. But there’s the other side of it, the marketing the the sort of external part of it, where you have to you almost and it’s, it’s depressing for me to say this, but like, you almost have to become a brand to be successful, like because I mean, look at the you know, Damien Hirst, I mean, all these different kinds of people like Jeff Koons excellent example, like, I mean, that when they, when they figure out that way to speak, it’s not even about like, branding to a style, but it’s like branding their name. Yeah,

David Henty 18:18
do you know, I had this idea to do this gallery, and perfectly legal again, I had this idea to do his gallery called branded. So what I was gonna do was put, you know, like a basket, this is and then a tiny little knot in it, a basket. So you’ve got this basket out there. And this is not a Damien Hirst, this is not a lot of Andy Warhol. Because they’re all easy to do silk screens and all that sort of stuff is easy to do in there. And I thought, so you could have in your house, a lovely big, you know, 10 million, 5 million pounds work for a relative two or 3000 4000, something like that, you know, and I thought that would be quite a good idea, because then you can, you know, Roy Lichtenstein, you know, quite like doing those easy again, nothing against Roy Lichtenstein, but like, pretty subminimum. Simple in their, in their execution. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s not brain surgery, how to work it out, you know, and the paints and stuff, the Ben day dots, you know, fairly simple, you know, but all these things are seeing herself, you know, so you’re going to they’re making millions now. And the big Andy Warhol was, you know, all these self spin paintings again. I mean, I’ve got a spin machine. I do all the skulls, the guns, you know, with this. He’s got the same initials as me. But dh in the back, you know, totally honest. Yes. But I didn’t think about doing that. Because the art world is, you don’t say, oh, I’ve just paid 500 2000 for a set of dots, you say I’ve just paid 500,000 for Damien Hirst. I’ve just bought a Rembrandt, you know, a B don’t say, I think when you realize that when the penny drops, there has to be. It’s not how good you are, is how good a salesman you owe how you get your name, above everyone else that is trying to create attention or grab attention. Somehow you got to think you look at my stuff, you know, and I’ll tell you another funny little story. When I had my fourth exhibition, I love it. I don’t even have to ask any questions you’d see and tell stories get when I had my first exhibition, when I got found out. So we thought we capitalized on it. And I had then I had a little gallery and I had a van Gough sunflowers in the window. And I had loads of other pictures of stuff. And on the night, I was doing some filming with sky arts for a program. So they filmed it, that the local Brighton film, did they come and filmed it in someone else’s, I can’t remember who else is filming it. So it was three film sets there at the time, you know, so it was a big crowd of people looking wondering why there was three film crews there. And anyways, that so it was really good because of what happened. And I was on radio four. And I went on there and I said, I’ve already sold four painters and I haven’t even opened the doors yet. It’s not open to next week. And this is pre babysit with the phone when and I sold. Dryden actually sold four paintings, I think so one, but because I hyped it up, we sold quite a few paintings before we opened, which was great. And then when we opened, so we had the Van Gogh of sunflowers in the window. So I said to my wife, I might get LEDs on Oh, to put a brick through the window, still the van golf. And then we can call the newspapers in tomorrow. So my sunflowers have been stolen. And when you can’t do that, and you wouldn’t let me do it. It’s, it’s good.

Matthew Dols 21:55
That’s a good idea.

David Henty 21:57
The other thing I was going to do, and it was a two or three storey building, and it was all newly painted white. And I said so what I’m gonna do is I’m going to get some Banksy stencils of stormtroopers coming down on a rope with our police on their back. You can’t without the pain the benches, you wouldn’t let me do all these things. But you see, I think you’ve got to create, you know, a buzz, basically,

Matthew Dols 22:22
it but it gets harder and harder these days. Because basically what like, realistically, there are so many artists and creative people in any industry trying to make a buzz like it’s like how, like, you know, was it 2025 years ago, I’m going off of your website that like you started doing sort of these sort of authentic forgeries. So back then it was kind of easy to make a buzz and sort of make a name like nothing personal to you. But I’m saying like it was easier pre internet pre social media. Now, there’s simply so many people with YouTube and all the social medias and all these things. It’s really hard to make a name for yourself

David Henty 23:03
to stand out. Yeah, absolutely. That’s why one of the things I really like is to do brainstorming, because you have to use your creative brain to think of different ways. As long as you get your workout in the morning, like, you know, I’ll get my painting out in the morning. And then sometimes you bounce off people, you know, and they’ll say something wacky. And you’ll say sound wacky. I’ll tell you what else I did one day. Because this is another case of trying to get publicity. So once you because there’s always like the internet. Now, once you do, so it’s always out there. And what I did was when Barack Obama was coming out of office, I saw a thing or in one day, and they had a big Norman Rockwell painting in the Oval Office, the headboard, you know, they borrow some certain pictures, and then they go back after their turn. Well, I’d actually painted that painting, I had it here. So what I did was I found a local film crew up, and I said, I’d like to give a message to Barack Obama. This is when I had the same exhibition. So anyway, so they came up. So I stood in front of the cameras, and I was a little bit nervous, because I wasn’t used to sort of the and they just said, Go on, then. You know, so I was a little bit stuttery. I said, our higher Baroque. Michelle, I said, I know this is your favorite painting. I said then, and I’ve done a copy of it, and it was on the stand behind me. And I said I’d like to gift it to you. I can get it to you in America. But if you’re in Brighton, I’ve got an exhibition. I said did I come there? Anyway, I learned what the local film is Brian Film Company, you know, latest news. They tried to sell it to CNN, because then it would have gone around the world. But anyway, CNN didn’t buy it, which is unfortunate. But if they did, what we were going to do, we’re going to get because I knew Barack Obama wouldn’t take it from me. What we’re going to do, we were going to get a green screen of the White House. And then we’re going to get a Michelle Obama and Barack Obama look alike. And I was going to give him the painting. So just as a follow up,

Matthew Dols 25:13
I wouldn’t be surprised if you could get it to them somehow. But he could be done. Now, now,

David Henty 25:20
we’ve still got it. Interesting. Yeah. But we say that that’s not a great example. But I think it’s the old story of if someone buys something, it makes you fashionable. If someone you know, that’s really, and then all of a sudden, everyone else looks at you. Sure. Well,

Matthew Dols 25:38
like when I was in school, I remember there was this journalist that I knew arts journalist, and he was telling me the story. He’s like, there was this exhibition that this guy was having at an old foundry, right, a brick foundry. And so his invitation that he sent in the mail was a brick that he just wrote on with a sharpie on the outside comes to my exhibition, and literally just like put the stamp on the brick, and just like wrote it, and literally said, like, no envelope, no package or anything, just literally a brick in the mail. And that that arts journalist never forgot that artists they go. That’s brilliant. And now, it would, but I feel like these days because of social media and all the other things like it’s almost like we forgotten that we have to do this, because we think that internet, social media, YouTube podcasts, as I’m doing this, are the ways to do it. But realistically, like, we’re the creative people in society, we’re the ones that should be coming up with the creative ways to do things. And we’re not

David Henty 26:41
Yeah, well, generally, this is, you know, as an artist, as yourself as an artist. This is a really, really good subject of how you get noticed. Because, you know, as you know, as I know, this, there’s people out there far more talented than I am. But I make more money.

Matthew Dols 27:00
And there are people out there who are far less talented who are famous.

David Henty 27:04
Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Which is sometimes it’s the ones that shout the loudest to get the most attention. You know, you can be a fantastic artist living in your Garret, and not really doing much. Well, I know a fella, and he lives down the road from me. There’s some real talented people around where I am. He sells his pictures for 200 pounds. And honestly, they’re, they’re fantastic. And he hasn’t got a name. And he’s really shy. Is multitaskers you’re very talented guy. I’m plugin just because you’re okay, he got himself. But joking aside, he’s a talented guy. He has to work and then do his art part time. He’s only got one child, but he can’t pay his bills from his art and you think he’s a portrait artist? And he’s such a talented guy. That you think what cuz I said to him when I saw his pictures, so you got to you got to put your prices up. You can’t do that quality of work for 200 pounds, you know

Matthew Dols 28:10
what? See Okay, pricing of artwork is a whole thing I don’t understand because I’ve seen some shit artwork priced incredibly high. I’ve seen some amazing artwork priced incredibly low. And, and I cannot figure out for the life of me how prices are decided. Other than somebody you know them, the art people, the curators, the collectors, the gallerist, whatever. They just decide what you’re worth. And that’s it. That’s what you’re worth. Yeah.

David Henty 28:43
We’ll see. I’ve got a theory. On my website. I put up paintings for extorting 50,000 pound 30,000 pounds. I said in the galleries, between 1000 pounds and 15,000. The get I mean, quite a few galleries around the country. And that’s my range. But then I’ve got certain pieces like the Salvador Mundi behind me.

Matthew Dols 29:05
Yes, I saw it on your social media.

David Henty 29:06
I’ve got it under 50,000. Because one thing you have to learn as an artist as well, you have to be Casso. He knew his worth don’t undersell yourself, because what happens is, and Billy to brush my friend used to sell quite cheaply. And then what happened? They had one dealer coming by and all his stuff, and the dealer keep knocking his prices down. And in the end, but he said to me, he said, Well, I’m working virtually for nothing. He said, because he doesn’t and he won’t be graduates giving me more now because he’s used to paying those low prices. You know, so if you go low, it’s very difficult people think they’re being head over when you put your prices up. So the thing is, you have to know your work, you have to know what you want to sell it and stick it up don’t do favors, you know go where you can have that because your friend and I’ll let you have that cheaper, you know, because people want to pay the full price.

Matthew Dols 30:05
What I ran into that exact situation, because Okay, I was I was raised in the United States, and I had a price in the United States. Then I went to the Middle East, I was in Abu Dhabi and Dubai. And there, I kind of had to inflate my price because my prices were insanely cheap for that market. And then I moved to Europe, and now live in Prague. And in Prague, I took my prices out, and they were like, Oh, no, you can’t price your artwork that nobody in this market will pay that because the market is lower in Prague than it is in Dubai and etc. So it’s not even just like pricing your work, right. But it’s trying to figure out sort of the right price. That’s not too high for a low market, not too low for a high market. Like there’s, it’s a really because because you have to be consistent. Like, in the old days, it could have been a 10,000 pound piece in London, and it could have been a 7500 in Paris, and that would have been fine. Because they didn’t know each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Now, yeah. Now you have to be consistent. Like you can’t put a lower price in one market and hybris in another market, because well, everybody’s connected, and everybody will know it.

David Henty 31:15
Yeah. But also that the thing I think as well, you have to target what market you want to be in. So if, like myself, I’m doing reproductions, and I mean, I don’t only copy I’m doing my own version of Caravaggio at the moment, with a Caravaggio, Professor, Professor, he studies Caravaggio, and we’re doing an old a last painting. So I’m just sourcing a 400 year old canvas and stuff, we’re going to age it up, and we’re going to, you know, but the thing is, I won’t sell those, Karen, they’re big. But I want to sell those to someone who’s a middle class person, really, I’m trying to attract the people with a lot of money, because they’re the ones I’ve got that that sort of money, you know, 50,000 pound, I’m asking for one, I think, with 1000, I can’t remember. But that’s the sort of money I want for those. Because I want you know, I’m attracting those those high buyers, and I want it to hurt because, uh, you must know, this is as an artist, if you bought something that’s expensive, you value it more. So if you’ve got that on your wall, and you put and it’s hurt to pay it, you know, it’s a lot of money, you’re going to look at it and love it. If you’ve given it on your bank balance, if you’ve given it, it’s nothing to you, you know, 10,000 pounds, aka tip, you’re not going to value it, you’re not going to get the pleasure out of it. You paid 100,000 you’re going to take a little bit more notice, you know, and that’s it. I tend to be right or wrong, but it’s my sort of thing. But I like the expensive, you know, because I think people value it more.

Matthew Dols 32:52
So, under this valuing and pricing and stuff, like it’s one thing, like coming up, coming up with your prices, choosing a value with all these kinds of it’s all great, but if you can’t find that market to actually pay these prices, it’s useless because like I know lots of artists who have pieces that are stunning for $25,000 but they can’t find their market. So like what’s your methodology? Are you selling through your your personal website? Do you have galleries like what kind of ways do you do to connect with clients?

David Henty 33:21
I do a lot through the galleries, which is my bread and butter. And they as I said they go from 1000 pound for small picture up to 15,000 for a bigger sort of piece. But then I’ve got my own. I’ve got my website, which I sell personally from and I’ve I’ve got some illustrious clients, you know, that I’ve got over the years and I’ve kept really good things about me one guy, you know in Annabel’s in Mayfair, I don’t know personally No, I was at nightclub I’ve never been either, but in the hallway, I know they’ve got a real Picasso. The owner paid 30 million pounds for it. renamed it Annabel’s it was married to raise with a red pump on one of the members of Annabel’s really liked the painting. So I painted one for him, you know, which I’ve got really good money for either. So I have these people and, you know, we repeat business, you know, he said, like the the basket that’s sold. That’s going to Marbella. So yeah, I think you have to have one eye on B. Now you’ve got the internet, you know, and you’ve got worldwide thing, that the thing I do, I think is unfortunate because obviously known as a forger.

Matthew Dols 34:34
Yeah, kind of can’t hide that now.

David Henty 34:36
Yeah, yeah. Well, I get lots of other interests that an ordinary artist won’t get. You know, people say to me, Oh, can you do? I’ve got another client that wants a basket. Another basket but new one? Yeah, new original. So I’ve got aged out, you know, right down to the stretches at the back there in inches rather than centimeters because it’s from America. You know, we’ve got the The unprimed canvas. Yeah, I’ve got the whole nine yards, you know? And then, yeah, so I’ll create a new basket and it’d be expensive. You know, I won’t sell it cheap, because it’s the 30 million pound painting, that I’ll make up using elements of basket, not pastiche, but I’ll use his colors, his palette and stuff, but I’m not gonna do nothing.

Matthew Dols 35:21
Okay, wait, I want to know, because of course, I love heist movies and things like this. Have you ever knowingly or unknowingly participated in any sort of like theft where you like you created the forgery, and they swapped it out for the original or anything like this? Like Has that ever happened? Well, it’s quite funny. Funny, you mentioned that. Yeah.

David Henty 35:46
Well, I’m just working with I don’t know if you’ve heard Peter James. He’s an author,

Matthew Dols 35:51
not by name. Oh, he’s

David Henty 35:52
a million cielo Bordeaux. Very, we’re working together on a concept where he’s writing the book, and I’m just giving him some advice on something along those lines. And then Jeannine, have you heard of Nick Moran? The actor is in not snatch the lock stock.

Matthew Dols 36:08
Well, yeah, I’ve seen the movie but yeah, okay.

David Henty 36:11
Brilliant Harry Potter. And he’s, he’s a director. He just directed creation stories about races manager of get his name, Alan McGee, where he was in the director. He was in it as Malcolm McLaren, where he’s written a script. And we’re is getting filmed this year, I hope. Where I’m kidnapped. Yes, David NZ, I’m kidnapped. And I have to do this painting for this thing anyway. And there’s a sequel to it as well, which is really good. You know? So yeah, these things are, where they help you sell for one? Yes, I’ve probably been involved in that sort of thing before. I have experience of those sort of things. You know, we’ll go with unknowingly unknowingly. unwittingly, unwittingly Yeah,

Matthew Dols 36:55
there you go. Yeah. So

David Henty 36:56
you were scared, I was gonna, you know, the baskets, we got the same canvas that he got. And it’s unprimed. And we’ve got the same stretches, and I have a framemaker may come up. And we’re in the process of doing some things. Well, I thought we’d go one better. What would do is with recreate your studio, which is just an hire thing, recreate a studio, but also, you know, now in Germany, you can get these latex masks. So you look, see, they do a 3d printed, and you put it on it. So you look like you could

Matthew Dols 37:31
just CGI that these days. But yeah, well,

David Henty 37:34
you could get I mean, we know I know, different people, I suppose. You know, we know we come across these people. But I was gonna think and doing these baskets. And as an added incentive, getting the app in the studio, they’re having a Polaroid, I’ve got a 1970s Polaroid camera, taking a photograph just the side shot or just enough to sort of, you know, a grainy sort of photograph with the work, and then tuck it in the back with the structure, you know, not saying it is, I’m just saying, well, it might be you know, so maybe, you know, that is, I’ll be looking at those sort of lines later, you know,

Matthew Dols 38:13
where me, but this is the kind of stuff that like, you know, many artists love this kind of stuff. Like, I love it, it’s like, if you’re gonna do something, overdo it, you know?

David Henty 38:23
Yeah, you know, this is the thing with my brothers, my two brothers, you know, they both got talent as artists, you need that extra little bit of something, you know, where you’re, you’ve got that more confidence, maybe, that you go, you know, I’ll stand out in the crowd, and I’m not afraid to stand out.

Matthew Dols 38:41
But it’s like, when you’re caught in a lie that you like, like, you have to, like, double down on it basically. Like, that’s the only way to get out.

David Henty 38:52
And, you know, when you got to keep fake it to make it, you know, I think you do need to be a salesman as well. Because, you know, there’s some fantastic artists out there and there is like a musician’s very few. Make it, there’s only a handful that make, you know, a lot of musicians end up with session musicians, you know, very, very good, you know, on par with all the all the greats and stuff, but they end up a session, which is they haven’t got that. I kind of expect or they haven’t got that salesman, where they stand out and they go to the front, you know, they look at me like this is what I can do. And like you say with that brick, people remember it, you know, they do something out of the ordinary, but that’s the hard part is like, like when I was just out of art school. So

Matthew Dols 39:41
we’re talking the turn of the 20th Arts I guess the turn of the 2000 like it was almost easier to stand out because there were even if you tried to stand out, you’re just standing out in your your city or your region. But like these days, you’re in such competition with the world. market it’s really hard to just even stand out at all. Because like local news is actually world news these days. Yeah.

David Henty 40:09
But But you say that but, you know, look at Banksy.

Matthew Dols 40:13
I want to make something really clear. I’m saying this This podcast is called the wise fool because I’m obviously doing a lot of things wrong. So please school me on how to do it right because obviously I’m doing something wrong and you’re doing something right. Because you’re making tons of money doing these works. So tell me

David Henty 40:32
we were doing bank sees the kids. I’ve got my grandkids came out at the weekend. And we were paying their bank says they’ve taken to their school today to show the teacher but the thing is, you know, banks it is a case in point, the more publicity I’ve got a commission to do for Banksy monkeys live to get them on the on the sort of metal plates that he used. He did one on his metal plate. It’s like a industrial, you know, the drawers and stuff with the cabinets. Is he did one on there anyway, he’s up the server half a million pound or something. The owner wants four copies of it. Because he said there’ll be really I mean, they take 10 minutes. That’s a real you know, the hardest bit was sourcing the material with the backboard, you know, that means get that right. It’s harder to frame it than it is to paint it you know, it takes 10 minutes. It’s literally a spray can a stencil. And that’s it, you know, and then, you know, so but that that is worth a million pounds.

Matthew Dols 41:34
Again, it’s all about cult of personality. I mean, it means I admire these people who do it really well. I admire the Jeff Koons Damien Hirst, the bank sees all these people do but it’s, it’s really hard. Because I mean, part of it is I’m a bit of an art snob, you know, like, my, my life goal is like, I want to be part of the art Canon and like, I want to be remembered for being a great, whatever this year. But sometimes you sit back and you’re like, Fuck, I just want to make money.

David Henty 42:05
The funny thing is, the art establishment as such, doesn’t like me. While I was gonna ask about that. Yeah, they don’t the critics and stuff that they don’t like me because they say I’m devaluing art, you know, when I do a Modigliani, you know, do an old Canvas, you know, I can do one quite easily. I could do one an afternoon, ag up there saying, well, he’s devaluing. Modigliani, you know, and I’ve had this conversation with an art professor. But I said, but he never made any money in his life. He died starving, and at his funeral, his paintings were changing hands for more money than ever in his lifetime.

Matthew Dols 42:45
Well, not only that, but like you’re not devaluing. Modigliani. You’re devaluing the collections of some very rich people who own Modigliani. So like, had you in no way affected? Modigliani? He’s passed away.

David Henty 42:59
Yeah. And you know, his story, his wife, he was 37, I think his wife was 21 and nine months pregnant. And she jumped out the window, I think, within 48 hours of his death. But, you know, later on, when they they interviewed one of her relatives, they said, you know, why would she do that? It’s very selfish to jump out the wind, but, you know, nine months pregnant, and their relative explained she had been starving for a week. She hadn’t eaten for a week. There’s no way she could take care of the baby. Did you didn’t see any future, you know, which, and now the paintings even her paintings make 1000s of hours. Modigliani will routinely make between 510 million up to I think 50 millions and they never saw a penny. They lived in squalor, you know. So, the art world is all topsy turvy. And I don’t particularly like the art critics. And I know they don’t like me. And I think we’re great because we know where we stand. When we have the cure. If the critics don’t like you and stuff, but you do sell you sell a lot from what I gather. So but like who buys these kind of like me, I’m trying to still trying to find the right word. It’s not like forgeries. It’s in the in the what’s the word you use in the after? fuse after?

Matthew Dols 44:18
Like, okay, the forges like what kind of people buy them and like why do they buy

David Henty 44:27
one of my best sellers in the galleries is Lowry. I’ve noticed

Matthew Dols 44:30
you do a lot with loughrea Yeah,

David Henty 44:32
I think galleries too. I think 10 yesterday, new Lowery’s but what they keep selling Larry’s they sell because people love Lowry. You know that but they can’t actually afford one. They’re so expensive. Now. They got to 5 million. The little ones you know, routinely 100,000 pounds. That’s a small 10 by A. I can do Larry. I mean I’ve done 1000 now is I’ve done you know a lot a lot. I mean, I’ve got About five here, just waiting to be framed. And they took 10 yesterday. Zadie Lowery’s. But people they feel of genuine affection for Lowry, but they can’t afford a real one. But then one of mine, you know, which is a real painter. It’s not a print. You know, it’s got a bit of life to it. And I’ve studied Larry, I know how he gets his they’re not matchstick men. They’ve got life in it because they move and they’re characterful. So when you know all these things, and you know how he painted, and I can age it up, you can I tell you another little story. Go ahead. I

Matthew Dols 45:35
love your stories. It’s great.

David Henty 45:37
Peter, James, the author. I’m in one of his books as well before, he’s writing one now, but he’s a crime writer. But I’m in another one of his books, I think was about two or three years ago. And he said to me, and by the way, when I had my first exhibition, he came and opened it. And I’ve got crime because he’s a crime, right? I’ve got crime scene tape across the doors, and he cut the tape, which is quite quite a good. So a little, little touch. Now, he said to me, come to the launch of my book, and it’s in the old police station in Brighton. So when I went there, and I’ve given these little Lowry, when he came around, and we’re doing the research, and I’ve given that little Lowry painting, when we when he got up, he was doing a talk. And he said all this 50 policemen retired policemen here, there’s because he’s got a big following in that. There’s so many policemen and there’s one rather infamous crook, he said, at any point is a metaphor. So anyway, but he was doing this talk, he said, he said, David gave me a Lowry. He said, Tim Wonnacott of the Antiques Roadshow program. He said, he came around for lunch with his wife, and he said, he said he was looking at and he said, Oh, yes, definitely genuine. So, and he was telling all these people so and he said, he said, no, no. So David, David hente, painted it with a point being it’s got a real life to it. It’s not dead print, or it’s not you know, anything else. It is a real sort of picture. I think people genuinely like him, you know that. He is my best seller. I mean, I sell so many they sell quite a few, three or four a week. You know, the gallery’s just stuff. That’s why I have to keep doing so many. here for a week. Yeah, yeah. Oh, they they fly up? I mean, I mean, quite a few galleries up and down the country.

Matthew Dols 47:18
Well, that’s what was another question I was gonna have. Because like, I’ve seen a did it. I watched the vice video with you. And it was fun, Billy, Billy to brush. That’s right. Yeah. And I was sort of wondering, like, you seem to have a market like, again, going back to like yours, like knowing your market, your market seems to be in the UK. So like, do you are your pert the people who buy your works all all, or most majority in the UK? Or are they all over the world?

David Henty 47:48
Mainly, is the UK I am UK based, although talking to you earlier, I did think about Dubai and Abu Dhabi. You know, because Funny thing is the Caravaggio’s I do, which I’ve got quite a few here. And they’re big and they’re nicely framed. And, you know, they’re, they’re real. I’ve put a lot of time and effort into them. I was looking to those type of markets to sell those.

Matthew Dols 48:13
And they probably would do beautifully.

David Henty 48:14
Yeah. Because they they do. You know, they are statement pieces. Not everyone’s cup of tea. I mean, you know, there’s beheading, you know, holding heads and stuff.

Matthew Dols 48:23
What depends on what religion they are in the Middle East.

David Henty 48:26
Yeah, yeah. You know, I did I had been thinking about it’s just, the funny thing is that I’m so busy at the moment that it’s very difficult to pursue. These are the things because, you know, I’m a working artist, basically. So I have to get I mean, I’ve got commissioners to do, and I’ve got, you know, different things to do. So I’m quite busy all the time, you know, which is great. I mean, it’s better to be busy than not busy as an artist, but I will get round to it. Because I want to have a market if I could retire tomorrow. Now there’s so many million pounds and never have to worry about money again. I would just do the old masters, Rubens, Caravaggio, Tintoretto, I would just recreate their works. And then my habit is a recreate five or 10 really close works. And then I’ll combine in their style, because I have that muscle memory. So then I can create work in that style. That’s my mo basically. See if I was rich. That’s what I would do. I wouldn’t do anything else. I’d just be doing them old masters because I love them. You know?

Matthew Dols 49:32
What, from the price points and the quantity You seem to be selling? I certainly wouldn’t call you poor.

David Henty 49:38
No, no, no, no, no, no. Is that not the tax man is that VAT man? Is that terrible? That one? Dude, I’m from the US. I got to Europe. I’m like fucking VAT is 21% is a killer. It’s a 15 that was spiteful. You know now because I’m a service. I don’t get anything. back. So basically, it’s a flat.

Matthew Dols 50:03
So they just take it from you,

David Henty 50:05
the more successful you are, the more money you have to pay, which is a bit of a pain. But it still is, I suppose, you know, it’s a pleasant pain to have. Because I’ve been in the position where I haven’t sold anything as well. I mean, I did a painting years ago, of jack Vettriano is the bluebird. And I was trying to sell it to my brother, and it is a big, quite a big painting. And I think it’s about three foot long. You know, it’s an intricate painting. And my brother was struggling to give me 200 quid, and he wouldn’t give me 200 pounds, because he’s me, and I didn’t have a name, you know. And then, so I’ve been in that. The other side of the coin is, I’m very grateful to be selling, and working, you know, because I’ve been, where you’re trying to sell your works, and they’re just don’t go. I mean, like,

Matthew Dols 50:53
I think back to like Andre Serrano, and those kinds of people who like a sort of shock art in order to get their name sort of kick started. And of course, now if Andre Serrano does anything everybody’s gonna be like Andre Serrano, the guy that did this Christ is now doing this new thing. Like, I’ve always wondered, like, you know, I’ve had this thing in my head, as is really, I’ve never said this out loud, but that it’s sort of like, what are you willing to do? Like, what are you willing to get arrested for? Like, my things were always I’m willing to get arrested for my art. And I’m willing to get arrested for some sort of sexual act in public. But like, but those are the only two things like out other than that, like, I never got arrested for all my drug use, or any of that kind of stuff, which is great. But, like, sometimes you have to push the limits of things in order to sort of jumpstart a career. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I’m not encouraging anybody to do illegal things. But wait, wait didn’t hurt me. Well, was there a time where did you go through like, you know, you were doing all these forgeries, and then you got caught? And like, how did you turn that around was just as easy as let’s capitalize on this and you’re off to the races.

David Henty 52:07
A team What happened? I was doing so well, during the forgeries, because I lived in Cyprus for a year and, and I’ve been painting over there and stuff. I went over there to live because I got hooked on some drugs here. Being in that circle. And so I went over there took myself away from all my circle of friends. Basically,

Matthew Dols 52:25
what what were you doing? I did, I was my ending stuff was like heroin, cocaine, that kind of stuff. I love cocaine.

David Henty 52:32
Cocaine was just strictly cocaine. But yeah, I mean, I got into it. And you know, sitting in it wasn’t a pleasure. I was looking out the window. Five o’clock in the morning thing, I just have one more line, you know, on my own, you know, and anyway, the circle of friends I had, yeah. The circle friends. You just couldn’t get out of that habit? Because it turned up and they go, why is it is aligned Dave and then you’re back on it. But you know, even though you sort of said I’m not going to do it. So I took myself away and I went to Cyprus for a year. So what happened was I cleaned myself up I went jogging or you know, just really just led a good life and I was painting.

Matthew Dols 53:12
Okay, wait to get wait to give a title. What What part of your life was this forgery time pre prison late after prison? Like what? Give me a timeframe. 20 times what and that’s really hard. It’s, it’s hard enough to like a make work, then be like get some way to have exhibitions or get some interest. But then see, you have to like figure out an angle, like how are people going to engage in it or desire to buy it or write an article about it like, I’ll admit like, I’m even having the difficulty I’m trying to get this podcast more people listen to the podcast. And so I’m trying to like, find an angle to pitch the podcast so that like people write articles about it. I can’t figure that out. Like, I don’t know what it is.

David Henty 1:00:12
Yeah. What do you know? There was a time? I don’t know if you were in England, leaning 15 Joe wicks, yo, wait, Jen. And he shouts out the window lean in 15 years, but the thing was, I was sitting with an instructor, a really good instructor, I used to go and do these classes and stuff. And she struggled to get five or 10 people in our classes. But she was really, really clever at what she did. She was very good at. And I sat there talking to her one day, and I said, Oh, you know, what, welcome Joe wicks can get, he sells books. He does all this. He’s got 1,000,010 million million followers. You’re just as good. But you can’t get that. That thing. But she took it as an insult. She thought I wasn’t. I wasn’t I was actually trying to is the crux of what you just saying. I was trying to say, what’s the difference about Joe wicks? And this girl? You know, why can’t she get 3 million followers and sell out every seminar? And you know, write books and the podcast? Being a hustler? Well, yeah, I mean, Joe Rogan is another podcast, you know, and then, and the thing is, he’s got so much influence. Now. It’s like a snowball. You know, the more higher rated people he gets on there, the more people you attract, and the more people listen. So he’s got that snowball going, double, I realized, the papers don’t want to write the same stories, then you have to do it from a different way. If you want to be relevant, you’ve got to think of how else to attract publicity or attention or because whenever I do a device film, had 1.1 million viewers. I think. I didn’t get paid for it. But what it equated to me was he sold lots of paintings.

Matthew Dols 1:01:58
I’m sure it was I was thoroughly enthralled. It was great fun. And that’s how I found you, actually.

David Henty 1:02:04
But that but that’s the thing. I mean, when Vyas phoned, I hadn’t heard of him being a bit of a dinosaur in the internet. And they phoned they said, well, we’re doing a film about our 4g, would you like to be in it? I said, Yeah, I’m just going down the beach, because it was a nice, sunny day, I said, Can you find back in a couple of hours. But luckily, luckily, you know, they did. And we, you know, now it’s history. And we’re hoping to do some more actually with them. But the thing is, you know, you have to keep getting these opportunities and trying to, you know, that was good for me. But now it’s gone. Because that was yesterday’s news.

Matthew Dols 1:02:40
Now, what I mean, and that’s another part of the the arts world that I finding vexing slash difficult, which is that everything goes in and out of favor over decades, a but also it’s just being able to, because like, I can think of a dozen artists that were popular or interesting or whatever, at a certain point and then sort of never regained or continued that popularity, the rest of their careers. And that it’s that’s that really difficult thing is because it’s not about just making a sale, but it’s about trying to build a career so that you continue to make sales or have exhibitions or what you know, whatever it is you desire in your career.

David Henty 1:03:24
We, you know, one of the things that also a lot of paintings by is my story. So people are interested, because one, most people haven’t met a forger, an art forger.

Matthew Dols 1:03:36
You are my first art form, by the way.

David Henty 1:03:40
We’re building the brushes. And when we talk two or three times a week about our different things, you know, we see in the art newspaper we’ll see online or you know, he’s very interested in stuff. I’m very interested in how we go about things, you know, there was an article once, and they had a Picasso. And they were doing lots of tests on it, because they thought it was fake. But the paint was the right period paint. The canvas was the right from the 30s. And they went by it with a microscope and doing little squares and stuff. And they found a little piece of fiber in there from a shirt. They tested the fiber. And they said it was pro properly in or something, you know, but it wasn’t invented to the 50s. Yeah, polyester. Yes, it is. They said the the painting couldn’t have been done in the 30s because it had that that thing from someone’s shirt from the 50s says, decided it was a fake. So then Billy and I are talking and we said, well, let’s get hold of a piece from the museum was it you know, of 1920s clothing? And we’re embedded in the plane. You know, so, so we’re looking at doing, you know, we are chats, you know, looking at ways we can, if someone’s found the way to find something out, then we think of a way to go around it and use it you know,

Matthew Dols 1:04:59
why me? That’s the thing is like trying to figure out how like I’m sitting here I’m angry. I’m like all the algorithm of the social media and like, like I’m so you do a little bit looser? Like I don’t know how to game the system kind of thing. But you know how to game the system?

David Henty 1:05:14
Well, I suppose just we’re all learning. I mean, I’m like you. I mean, I’m not. I’m not as high up as I’d like to be. But I do know that once. That vice thing had a 1.1 million viewers. Congratulations, by the way, oh, my young nephew, because I was feeling depressed A while ago. And he said, Why are you depressed? You’ve had 1.1. Because to them, that’s like, you know, you’re you know, but the thing was 1.1. And then then it stops. I went on another TV program. Oh, you called sometimes on BBC One. And the phone didn’t stop ringing for three weeks. And then it did. Yeah. And then it stopped. Then he stopped. And he just, it’s dead. It’s like a cliff. And then you either suffer, you think, Oh, you know, no one likes me anymore. I’ve gone out of fashion. I’ve had my five minutes. Or you think there’s a new way of using, you know, whatever you got behind you. And use it a new way. I was really lucky. You call it luck. But I gave a painting away years ago. And little Picasso. And it turned up in an auction down the road from me.

Matthew Dols 1:06:22
Do you mean down the road at like Sotheby’s or like down the road or like local

David Henty 1:06:26
three miles from my house. It’s only a little extreme auction. But anyway, I knew that Roland Penrose because I’ve got his book. He lives it down the road from me a few miles. And he was a friend of the castles and I knew that the castle had come to visit him. So I did this painting. And I put on the back to Roland love tableau, you know, seeing what ended up in this auction. They fought that there are a number of things they said they got sky in, they got all these different newspapers and things all over the internet, you know, million pound Picasso turns up at this auction. So I got a phone call from Robert Mendick from the telegraph. He said, David, is that one of yours? And I hadn’t seen it. So I looked at the online I said Oh, yes, one of mine. You know, it’s a bit bewildered that was their semi suggests one of mine. It’s not even that good. It was just one I gave away. It was like a practice one, you know. So he did the stock ran the story. But anyway, they will come around. They were saying he’s lying. He’s doing this but the thing was that million pound the castle got was another sort of, though, inadvertently. He got plenty of coverage. You know, I’ve got quite a few commissions on the strip. Which is it’s quite funny. Really. Okay, wait,

Matthew Dols 1:07:45
the but this there’s something I forgot to ask because I’ve been wondering about this. How can you get away with using the names of like, okay, let’s take Damien Hirst, because he’s still a living artist. He has the sort of the rights to his name. So like, how can you even use their names legally? Well, I use Damon heist. Well, but I mean, okay, but let’s take some of the like the older ones like, like, even as I’m thinking like, Okay, I’m looking at your website while I’m thinking about this. Okay, let’s take Claude Monet. Many Monet’s are owned by certain museums, and those museums use those images in tote bags and umbrellas and stuff to make money. So like, how do you have the rights to use these sort of famous names that other institutions and whatever are using for their money making thing? To do yours? Like, to me, it sounds like there should be somebody should own a name.

David Henty 1:08:50
I’m not sure 70 years after the copyright ends after 70 years,

Matthew Dols 1:08:55
right? But Damien Hirst is still alive.

David Henty 1:08:58
Now. I don’t think I think Damon heist. But you know, the other thing as well is and this is the law, I can do one of your paintings, I can copy one of your pictures, sign your name, but as a homage and give it to someone and or sell it. But as long as I don’t say it’s yours originals I can get away with it is only when it is being sold as your work. There is a crime. So I can see your work and go I really like that I’m going to do a copy of that or a version. And even just where somewhere along the lines, it adds your name to it.

Matthew Dols 1:09:39
That’s an excellent idea. This is what I need to do to jumpstart my career is to get a forger to forge one of my

David Henty 1:09:47
works. Thing is, but you can’t legally thing because I haven’t sold it in 10. I understand that

Matthew Dols 1:09:55
but I’m thinking just as an artist like how can an artist jumpstart their career get a four to forge it, and then you can get a news article written about somebody selling a forgery of your work. And then you’re famous.

David Henty 1:10:08
Yeah. Which, you know, you know, there’s an old story that you know, Kim Kardashian,

Matthew Dols 1:10:12
I’ve heard a very Yes. Yeah,

David Henty 1:10:14
I mean, my daughter, you know, loves it, but I can’t see the thing but, but anyway, she was paid, I think quarter million pound to plug. Some sort of love Island holiday. I don’t know if you heard about and it was a scam.

Matthew Dols 1:10:29
Oh, yes. Yeah. Was it that was not a fire the fire festival? Was that it?

David Henty 1:10:34
I don’t know. But it was some scam if it was in the back of my mind. And I remember seeing it. Yeah. So she got paid for others two or three Instagram post, do an MA sold. So many, you know, and it was turned out to be a scam, there was nothing there is you know, but the thing that’s the power of bit, you know, someone like that. So, if someone like that has got your book, or one of your paintings, or whatever, you know, and I have to say to my sister, why don’t you send your books to all these different people, you know, the same way the painting you could if you wanted to be the exception?

Matthew Dols 1:11:11
Yeah, I was gonna say I’m not gonna lie. I’ve thought about that. And but the problem that I came up with was getting it to them. Because all of these people who are sort of worthwhile to get it to that would, you know, somehow boost your career are inaccessible, you know, like, it’s you can’t get their mailing address and just ship them something, you know, it would be their, their representative. And then of course, the representative would throw it out. And it would never actually get to them kind of thing. So yeah, trying to but the idea of like just doing that. I mean, I’ve seen artists these days that are doing like a sort of print or artists swaps kind of things like lesser known artists will do a trade with a more well known artists and they’ll they’ll like post them on Instagram saying like, Oh, look, I just got this great thing from this young upcoming artist. And suddenly that young upcoming artist sells everything becomes a night. Yeah, yeah. Well, like all my, I just heard that. This this, Jerry salts, he posted some picture of a young girl who just did her MFA, like, never sold a piece in her life kind of thing. And the moment he had like, within 24 hours of him posting on Instagram about how he liked it, she’d sold every piece she’d ever made.

David Henty 1:12:23
Yeah, we’ll see. That’s the power of celebrity. You know, and the thing is, they become an artist. You want to have an eye on not being a celebrity, maybe but being having one foot in that world. You know, it what I did a while ago. There’s a perfume maker called Rosa. is big here is in Harrods. He was from Brighton. So one Christmas. I sent him not harriton. I love his shop up there Academy, but it’s called the fortnum and Mason, I sent the director for a message. And I forget who else a third. Well, I sent three little Picasso’s to these people, just their offices. Were the two of them. I never got an answer back from but Roger dove. And his assistant call me and said, Why did you send me this painting, and when I got to meet in and we talked about collaborating on this bits way wanted me to do some stuff. But the funny thing was, we didn’t see eye to eye I didn’t want to do what he wanted me to do wasn’t my style. So but we parted friends, you know? And he he was Mr. By scratching his head. Why did you send me because but it got me to the front door. Sometimes. I think that is a way of doing it. Maybe knock on people’s door. You know, I tell you what I’m doing as well. I’ll tell you what, I haven’t got time at the moment. But, you know, Tyson fury to boxer where he lives in England in morcom. And everyone knows where he lives. There’s a small town. And he’s a big figure. Well, I wanted to I’ve done some boxing paintings which which are actually of Tyson fury. And I sold I sold them privately. They were my Instagram and I sold them because I was going to go and give one to him. He’s got three or 4 million followers on Instagram. And he’s actually a really nice guy. But reason why I wanted to give it to him was one, you know, hopefully put it on Instagram, I’ve got this painting of me knocking out Deontay Wilder. But the secondly was I wanted to take a photograph of him standing there with his arms up in the air. He’s six foot nine tall, and I wanted to get like a board behind him ever miss thiet his arms up with his gloves on to do a silhouette of him. So basically, you know, see how tall he is. Now then what I wanted to do was paint a picture from the photograph of him six or six foot nine of him with his arms up in the air. And then I was gonna do two or three versions. I was gonna offer one to the Portrait Gallery, the Portrait Gallery in London, because I hadn’t got one of them. And I wanted it so that people could go and stand up close these a heavyweight champion of what They could stand next to this guy see our broad he is and how tall he is no. And also, I wanted to give him one because he’s very interested in mental health charities to give him an original. And then we sell 20 prints, the 10,000 pound each, and all the money goes to his charity. There’s mental health charity, he signs in and I sign them. The thing is, you see things like that I haven’t done it, because I haven’t had time. But you see things like that. And it puts you on another level. I don’t get any money from it. But you’ll get all those people that then will want a picture of Tyson fury or boxing painting, you tap into that market.

Matthew Dols 1:15:39
It’s a great idea. I mean, I’ve also noticed you do a lot of like philanthropy work, you do a lot of charitable work as well.

David Henty 1:15:45
Yeah. Just you know what, I always think, if you give out you get back, you know, if you’re mean and sort of, you end up being mean, and you know, hunched over and holding onto things. But we did well, I always try and do it. And the galleries don’t like me doing it too much. Because, you know, obviously is garbage charity, and everything else like that, you know, and

Matthew Dols 1:16:08
but I love doing it. It’s hard in the lake where I grew up in the United States, the quote unquote, like charitable stuff was really it was just ways for charities to get like artists to donate things, because we would get a tax write off for anything we donate. And then they would sell what would be like $1,000 piece for like $250. So it was a place where people who liked art would go to try and get good deals because they could get it below market value. But that’s been changing, I have to admit, but I’m talking about the back in the 2000s. When I started out it was it was very unfortunate situation, the old or charitable artists participating stuff. But I’ve seen I’ve seen better ones, basically where now artists can sort of set their base price like don’t sell it for less than this because then it hurts hurts my reputation.

David Henty 1:17:00
Yeah, of course, yeah, I saw something. You know, when the pandemic first started. And they were sharing a lot in Italy. And there was people there, there was a mother there with a child, and she wasn’t getting any benefits. And the neighbors would get dropping her food off because she didn’t have any food. And I thought, how many more people because I was lucky I work for free to pandemic doing private commissions. But how many people lost their businesses or all of a sudden they’ve their high flying and then they’ve got nothing. I’ve got the galleries to do around the country for the food banks. And all the money went to the food banks. And you know, every painting we did, we sold within I think within two minutes, when the auction opened, we sold it in all around the country. And yeah, I felt great. You know, we didn’t earn any money, but it was a good thing to do. And having like yourself, probably, I’ve been in that position where I’ve been hungry. And you know, when I was being I had no one to go to go and get a meal or anything like that, you know, you’ve been hungry yet to go and work or you know, that was how it was when we were kids. You know, I can go to my dad and say, well, Dad, you know, because it’s stabling your own TV, you know?

Matthew Dols 1:18:08
Yeah, I’ve been hungry. There. Were there were times in my life like that. Yeah, hopefully.

David Henty 1:18:14
Yeah, we’ll see anyone like that.

Matthew Dols 1:18:17
Yeah, I, I’ve lived a reasonably privileged life, I would have to say, but there were times where it was, you know, ramen noodles for for weeks on end?

David Henty 1:18:28
Yeah. And we, there were times when my brothers and I, we were hungry. You know, my mom and dad split when we’re young. And my mum went off, you know, my dad sort of had a girlfriend. So we were just sort of left sometimes, you know, and it was, you know, sometimes, if there’s no food in the cupboard, we’d look at it. What do we do you know, and that was it. You know, you get to go and, and we were only kids that’s gone. You know, make like you say hustle to get some food, you know, and when we say love again, the milkman got Nick in the milk behind him and stuff. And the bread. But yeah, but so that’s one story but but now, I’ve been getting back to your thing. I think you have to keep be like Madonna. keep reinventing yourself. Keep your story current in and attracted to you. You know, don’t don’t worry about standing out from the crowd. That’s where he won. You know, being a little bit different. You want to that that brick you want to be noticed and remembered. And I’ve been there. Am I even even incorporate there.

Matthew Dols 1:19:38
I mean, it was a great idea. Like it really was.

David Henty 1:19:41
Yeah. But that’s the thing you know, you remember him? That’s when we wanted to be remembered.

Matthew Dols 1:19:47
Yeah, I don’t remember the name of the artist but the the guy who received the break does

David Henty 1:19:51
Yeah. But no bit you know, that’s the thing we probably somewhere along the line that go in going in the subconscious and pop In another way, and you know, there’ll be, I suppose, send the new things out with a 20 pound note attached, they’re going to remember? Absolutely,

Matthew Dols 1:20:09
yeah, I mean, I’ve, you know, I was raised, my parents were always like, you know, when, when you send out a resume for a job, like when they have a stack of resumes on the desk, they’re all on a white paper, they all look exactly the same. They’re all the same size. It’s like, you got to do something to stand out in that stack, you know, so like, I used to do colored papers, or like oversized pieces of paper, anything to make it so like, they would have to notice mine, because it just simply wouldn’t match everybody else’s.

David Henty 1:20:35
Yeah, yeah. That’s how you want to do your art as well, while you’re selling yourself, you know?

Matthew Dols 1:20:41
Boy, that’s the tough one, though. Not only do you have to figure out a way to do it, but then you also have to continually reinvent and continually be figuring out so like, it’s literally a lifetime of continually reinventing, which don’t get me wrong. I love it. I’m all for it. But boy, that just takes a lot of work.

David Henty 1:20:58
But I suppose once you’ve got a foot in, in doing it, then it becomes easier, because you have all that is a bit like myself. I’ve got all this stuff behind me. So now I’ll get more opportunities in front of me. That’s how you have to look at it, you know?

Matthew Dols 1:21:16
Well, that’s the thing. The hardest one to get is the first one.

David Henty 1:21:19
The first one. Yeah, that’s the hardest one. And that’s the one you want to put in. If you’re starting out as an artist. If I was starting out again, today, I would do my work. But I’ll make a plan, how to get noticed. And I want to get noticed, you know, even virally, so it goes viral. I’d want to get it noticed, you know, right from the start, you know, if we if we had to go back in time, let’s do it. Yeah, I would think Yeah, right. Now, this is what how I’m going to present my work. And I would really put some thought into that.

Matthew Dols 1:21:51
And now I gotta sit down and do a business plan. I’m not a businessman. That’s why it’s really hard. So it’s like, okay,

David Henty 1:22:00
you know, it’s like, once you start should be like a bull, you know, a snowball running down the hill. I know.

Matthew Dols 1:22:07
And as part of it is like, you have to be very thoughtful on what you want that sort of grain of that snowball to be like, silly, because whatever you get defined as the beginning, that will be the thing that that will then become the way you are sort of thought of. You better be really thoughtful about that. Because you’re stuck with it the rest of your career. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, like, like you, you’ve done it. I mean, I’m sure there are people who dislike you or don’t, whatever the work, but But the thing is, is like you owned it. You know, you’re a forger, and you are known for it, you were proud of it. And you just you just say, yeah, that’s what it is.

David Henty 1:22:45
Yeah. See? So I like, I like it when people don’t like me.

Matthew Dols 1:22:49
Somehow, I’m not surprised by this.

David Henty 1:22:52
A lot of professors and stuff are people. They don’t like me. They’ve done interviews, and they don’t Well, yeah, but we get it right. Because with

Matthew Dols 1:23:00
Yeah, I’m a professor

David Henty 1:23:02
here, but a lot of them they look down their nose at me, you must have noticed this snobby sort of thing.

Matthew Dols 1:23:07
No snobby people in academia, I’m shocked.

David Henty 1:23:11
They are someone like me, who’s You know, I’m educated, but I’m not well educated. But I know what I like. And I know I don’t work. And when they start talking about I watch every our program I can, when they start thinking not talking, you know, that would that was his sermon sermon. And he had these invalid in all suddenly start using these long words, and I lose interest. And I start falling asleep. You know, I don’t want to know that I want to know, what I like doing is I like knowing how an artist gets into that left side of the brain, is it the left side or right side, he clicks in once you click in and

Matthew Dols 1:23:45
run a creative set.

David Henty 1:23:47
When there’s one side, you know, when you’re driving that motorway. And you realize you’ve gone three service stations, you think I’ve gone there because you’ve been daydreaming. And when you work, sometimes you get into that thing. You click over. And you look at the time you think, Oh, I know what that time go, you know, because you’re in it so much. And is that creative side just coming through your subconscious coming through? And you’re just working, you know, I’ve done paintings where I’ve looked back and I thought, how did I do that? I can’t remember how I’ve done it, you know? So that’s the sort of thing I like.

Matthew Dols 1:24:20
I was gonna say so why do academics not like you? Well, I’m passionate about art. I love art. I was gonna say like you, you fit and a Nish like you’re not for everybody. You’re right, like so like some academic from a museum or an institution isn’t going to be like Oh, he’s just a forger like blah blah. But it takes work research, skill, craftsmanship, lots of things to make a good quality forgery.

David Henty 1:24:46
You have to do work. I mean, I watch everything. I mean, my poor wife. You know, every night we’ve watched our programs or I’m always got things that I like to when I’m working in my studio, I like to have stuff taped. on in the background about certain artists. I’m interested in Tintoretto at the moment I’m looking at him and because I love Caravaggio, Caravaggio was influenced by Tintoretto. So I’m looking at the connections stuff and I like to take it in and I’ll probably play it 10 times the program I’ve got taped, just goes in, you know, but there’s a lot of work behind the scenes to become a good forger. Once you could do it once Lowry bass, get Modigliani Picasso, I had muscle memory, so I can get a canvas. And I can draw out a Picasso and paint one out of my mind. Because I have that muscle memory. I’ve done so many.

Matthew Dols 1:25:41
Okay, wait, speaking of muscle memory, I was wondering, like so. Okay, when you’re doing a forgery, let’s say, Are you right handed naturally or left handed? I’m both I can pay the both edge as well. That’s what I was gonna ask you. I was gonna say like, like, if it’s a left handed painter, do you then paint with the left hand kind of thing.

David Henty 1:26:00
As you can see, and there’s there’s two William mortar houses there, where he’s left handed. So when I was doing them, I was thinking, I was working, I think that’s just not going right because the shadings going the other way.

Matthew Dols 1:26:13
That’s right. Yeah. Cuz that’s what I was thinking. I was like, there are certain artists that like the angles and the the way of the brushstrokes are going to be opposite if you do it in the wrong hands.

David Henty 1:26:22
Yeah. No, I can paint with both hands are more dominant with my right. But if I’m doing a big picture, like a basket, and I’m, I mean, that flow, I paint the both ends because I want to get the paint on. I often, you know, smudge with one hand paint with that, and, you know, sort of either brush you and you know, Mark with that and a dark one with that one, a lighter one with that. So yeah, so I use both, basically. But when you’re done, the left handed Leonardo’s left handed, so it’s easy to use your left, you know, but then, you know, if your rights more dominant, you put in the defining bits, you know, the fine bits,

Matthew Dols 1:27:01
he’s holding up his hand into a drawing with his thumb right now, for the listeners that can’t see that.

David Henty 1:27:09
Animated. But yeah, the critics don’t like me. I mean, I’ve had quite a few people, when I’ve done interviews and stuff, and they’ve been on the same interview. And they disliked me immensely. But, you know, I like it that they don’t like because you need to debate and you need to argue this. There’s always there’s not just one one path. There’s all different paths that go down?

Matthew Dols 1:27:33
Well, according to them, there’s only one path and it’s their path.

David Henty 1:27:37
Yeah, but you know, it doesn’t work for everyone does it? I never went to art school. I haven’t had a lesson on self taught. And I get to where I’m going by experimented. And I learned a lot of wrong ways to do it. Before I learned the right way,

Matthew Dols 1:27:53
as we all do.

David Henty 1:27:55
Yeah, we’re in my basement downstairs. I mean, I’ve got more wrong painters that have right paintings, you know, more mistakes than their timber that but that’s how you learn if you don’t learn by that, or you learn quicker by making a mistake, because then you sort of think, well, I won’t do that. Again. I’ve just spent two hours doing that. And it hasn’t worked. You know, that’s two hours. thing, but you’ve got to use that way. Okay? Do you have like storage of lots of stuff, because this is one of these things that like, as an artist I always think about is like, Okay, great. I make these monumental stone sculptures, but

Matthew Dols 1:28:32
if they don’t sell or not, you have to store them somewhere. So like, do you have like storage units of extra stuff? Or does everything leave,

David Henty 1:28:40
I’ve got a basement downstairs. And there’s all my half finished paintings, painters that haven’t worked painters at some stage, I’m going to paint over

Matthew Dols 1:28:51
the thing because like everything to you as a resource, so you could rework it or take the screen off and redo it or whatever.

David Henty 1:28:58
Yeah, I mean, you know, I’ve got all canvases, all frames, but there’s a lot of stuff down there that, yeah, drawings that working out, you know, you work out a different picture and stuff. And you look at it the next day, and you think, Oh my god, what was that thing? There’s nothing like it. See, you scrub that out where you just leave it and start again. That’s the way I learned. You know, that’s the way I’ll take different eyes that I like, and I have to like him to do them. And that’s why I work it out. You know Modigliani I mean, I love doing him and I love doing soutine his friend. In fact, I love doing soutine more than Modigliani but Ansel as well. name recognition

Matthew Dols 1:29:41
again,

David Henty 1:29:43
but but I like doing them so I don’t mean I don’t for pleasure. But I always learn with every painting I do I learn.

Matthew Dols 1:29:50
Alright, this has gone really long. So let’s wrap this up. The last thing I generally ask you’ve done some amazing sort of advice and ideas, but I generally sort of ask Do you have any Sort of advice for the next generation of artists to help them out something maybe you haven’t mentioned yet,

David Henty 1:30:07
which, you know, is hard to get noticed. But then it’s not, you know, if you think outside the box or get a group of your life yourself, I mean, I’d love to have a chat with you, and a couple of others put us in a room and throw some ideas about, and see what pops up, you know, and go. Yeah, you know, and you know, what, this is different now has done this before, let’s do that.

Matthew Dols 1:30:28
I’m all for it. Come in, tell me where and when,

David Henty 1:30:30
because eyes need exposure. If you haven’t got a name, you don’t sell, you know, it’s like, if you haven’t got a resume, you can’t get a job, same sort of thing. So, you know, we need to sort of sit down and think about different ways to get get noticed, basically, and get high profile followers and things are not fake ones or anything like that, you know, we talk about real, you know, sell pieces.

Matthew Dols 1:30:56
Well, that’s one of the other things like I thought about that idea of like sending your work to a famous person. So they put it on Instagram, blah, blah, blah, whatever, this kind of thing. But the thing is, is I don’t know if they’d like it. So like, maybe I’ll go through all this effort and the money and you send a thing there and they don’t like it. So they it’s that’s a tough one. Because they you have to think about like, would they even like it for for you go through the effort to sell it? So it’s like, there’s so much to it. But yeah,

David Henty 1:31:21
but Joe, if you don’t take a chance, you know, him have the chance. Oh, yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:31:26
it’s true. I mean, I do when I started this podcast, like, people were reluctant to even be on the podcast kind of thing. And so I, what I did was every guest that I met in person, I would give them a print of one of my pieces, kind of things just like as a nice little gesture. And I’m hoping some way that that might help out because me, my cutting plan. This is my cutting plan that you had yours. Mine is I’m hoping that this podcast will actually help my career like, like my art career, but it hasn’t yet, but I’m hoping it will in the future.

David Henty 1:31:59
You know, I’ve got an A, we got a wrap up. But I’ve got a collector who’s a million multimillionaire, and we talk and he’s is an angel investor. And, and what he says to me, you know, he said, yeah, it’s all great. You’ve been on TV device during this during that. Bottom line is you need to sell paintings never forget, we get carried away with this. And that bottom line is, you need to sell painter like that.

Matthew Dols 1:32:26
That’s mine. Yep, sure. showing him a piece of my work in the background.

David Henty 1:32:30
Yeah, no, I like that. I saw your stuff a little while ago. She does get this interested. But now it needs to be out. It needs to be somewhere big and where it’s gonna be seen,

Matthew Dols 1:32:42
you know? Quite honestly, talking with you right now. I’m feeling very motivated. I’m like, Okay, I’ve got this idea. I should do this. I already like, this is here. Okay. From your inspiration. My cunning plan right now, is I’m thinking I’m gonna try and find an empty building, with a storefront that I could like, basically find the owner. And, you know, put my art on display. But it has to be a storefront that’s near the newspaper. So the press, people are walking by it every day. And hopefully one of them might be like, Hey, we should read an article about this person.

David Henty 1:33:17
would you know that? That looks I mean, I know David Bowie has gotten more. But that’d be David Bowie type piece. I’m sure. He saw that. Because he liked those layers and those lines and that stuff. You know, and that half hidden. I’m sure if he saw that David Bowie would have been a buyer. You know, so you need to find another David Bowie. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:33:38
we all need to find another David Bowie.

David Henty 1:33:41
Yeah. But, you know, I hope, I hope it’s given a little bit of inspiration. You know, you’ve been, you’ve been a lot of fun. This has been, you know, I’m

Matthew Dols 1:33:53
always a little nervous about doing podcasts. But this has been a lot of fun. Very nice.

David Henty 1:33:57
He said, He’s passionate about something. You know, that’s, and the thing is, what a job we’ve got, you know, seriously, I’ll sit at home. And I’m playing. Okay, I’ll bed and I paint. If I feel the mood and in the middle of night, I paint. You know, what a great job and we get paid for it.

Matthew Dols 1:34:14
I know. I mean, there are certainly certainly so many worse jobs to have in the world. I mean, it is quite a privilege slash luxurious lifestyle to be able to be an artist.

David Henty 1:34:25
Yeah. When I go on holiday, I always take my stuff with me and I paint quite often I’ve painted and I’ve showed the pictures they’ve paid for the holiday. Nice orgies, but I love it. Well, then, where do you want to go on anymore?

Matthew Dols 1:34:46
Now? This is good. way longer than my normal episodes. We put everyone to sleep now. Oh, no, no, this is thoroughly entertaining. So thank you very much.

David Henty 1:34:59
Thank you. Another thing Peace and love. I mean that. Just get it out there. Get it out there. I see my like that is Helena Bonham Carter.

Matthew Dols 1:35:09
I love Helena Bonham Carter.

David Henty 1:35:11
It reminded me of a just then you know, looking cuz she loves quirky and different.

Matthew Dols 1:35:16
Sure yeah big fan I like Tim Burton, Johnny Depp all that gang like I’m all for Johnny Depp de la and I wanted to get one to Johnny. Oddly enough. I know a lady who knows, like Johnny’s publicity person or press person and like she was like, Oh, yeah, I can get your work to john. And I’m like, do it. Yes, I’m there. Let’s go. And yeah, it hasn’t happened yet. But I work on. Press it today. I just got sent an email saying, hey, whatever happened to that Johnny Depp connection?

David Henty 1:35:48
We’ll just send that they say can you get this to john? You know, sure. Okay.

Matthew Dols 1:35:56
All right. Thank you very much. Thank you.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com, the music was created by Peat Biby, and the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com