Transcript for Episode 146 – Founder of MTArt Agency, Marine Tanguy (UK + France)

Recorded January 29, 2021
Published on February 11, 2021

Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/founder-of-mtart-agency-marine-tanguy-uk-france/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly? For me? Yes, marine tongi. And you are the founder of Mt. Art agency? Correct? Correct. Yeah. Now, how did you even get into being creative? What were your parents creative? Like? How did you sort of come to the path of all this?

Marine Tanguy 0:30
I mean, I think for me, it’s a very long story now. So my mom was a primary teacher that is support teacher. And I grew up on an island where there’s not much out whatsoever, because it’s an island. I didn’t if I grew up creative, I think my mom was really keen on me reading. So I definitely read loads. And I think that definitely helped my imagination. I was very much someone who had, I guess, visual narratives that she imagined. And, and I wanted to see in a sense that I was very good at imagining the world I wanted to see and live in. And I would trust my instinct to kind of want to be part of that, which sounds very, I guess, not very concrete, but silly things that I’ve imagined a lot of my life. And I’m lucky that I’ve been able to kind of leave it. And I guess I was just someone that was very kind of, I just listened a lot to it. So I just went on about it. So I studied literature philosophy at a university in France, as called the Piper eco Canyon, Kane, which are castles as pretty known for the French system. And again, I started this because I felt that this was where intellectuals would be meeting and the world that was to be a part of will be meeting as well. I didn’t feel that was exactly what I got. So I changed again, to the UK where I was told that I could start working earlier, and they could offer different paths. And, and after that the story is much more of a CV like by 19, I was already running a gallery by 21, I was director by 23, it was earning one in LA because an investor approached me then I got poached, you know, like, very quickly on stages, two stages. So sensor has been very much the same story for the past 12 years, which is, you know, I make sure that artists get the best opportunities and make sure that the best they have the best support, I make sure that I create a lot of opportunities. And I’m very creative in the way I do that. And I guess mtrs agency was a pinnacle of that where I felt the traditional art world was not allowing me to have all the opportunities I wanted to create for them. And a talent agency system would enable me to do that. And, obviously, since it’s grown substantially, so we’ve got offices in London, Paris and Monaco and, and obviously, it’s not just me anymore, it’s a team of selection committee, investors and partners and and a crew of artists I’m incredibly fortunate to be working with. So yeah, I just I’m at the stage in my life, where I generally have been able to walk from in the shoes of what I had dreamed of when I was much younger. But I never dreamed in job titles I dreamt in the way I wanted my life to be led. And I’m lucky to have that.

Matthew Dols 3:14
You touched on so many things I want to know more about. So first things first question, of course, keep in mind, I’m a practicing artist, I’m also a professor, and a lot of listeners are generally practicing artists and people in this that sort of avenue of the the industry. So the first question, of course, is like, when you decide to work with an artist, how do you what are the criteria that you’re looking for, because like, I’m thinking it’s not the the quality of the work is great. But there’s also the element of like you want, they have to be somewhat business minded you like there’s some other characteristics beyond purely just great art that I’m sure you look for that I’d like to know more about.

Marine Tanguy 3:54
We have a selection committee. So it’s actually not me, and I do it on purpose, because I wanted a level of fairness I wanted at everyone who, you know, didn’t know me or didn’t know, anyone of my team was to be able to access the company. So it’s actually not me who is partially running the selection process, I guess there is a very big difference. I’ve had a very passionate relationship with the artists, not in any love ways, but I’m definitely a salesperson, in a sense, I need to believe in to what I do, should then kind of make someone else believe in it. And I guess, as any salesperson will be that you are very good at convincing if you convince yourself and then the different type of salespeople good at convincing First off, you know, but I think for me, it’s I’m good at convincing if I’m convinced, so I think I’ve always had very intense relationship, but I’m glad this I don’t have this anymore. In a sense. I like my early ones. I have that with them because we’ve built you know, carriers together and and a lot of the merger incredibly well. So I think it’s we’re very close from a friendship perspective, but I’m actually very glad that the company He is making it really fast. He has a selection system that looks from anywhere from how innovative The technique is to what’s the background of the artists to what’s a storytelling to? How are they going about as a personality to what’s the degree of ambition to the projects they want to realize. And that that is external people doing it, because I don’t think I’ll be as thorough as a person. And I think that’s the difference between a corporate and an individual as of trade, not that I’ve ever trained in sales. I’ve always been very good at convincing people, when I felt one of my artists was, you know, worse something in my head and, and had to be worse, some finger was deserving something. So it’s a double double process, I think I’m much more on the instinct on the person than I am purely on the art, if that makes sense. But then the company has now structured that so that it’s heavily affair in the way that this is being led,

Matthew Dols 5:57
I was in no way implying that if you were the one making all the decisions, it was unfair, it’s your company,

Marine Tanguy 6:03
I definitely wouldn’t want to be biased. So I’m glad this has been removed. And we are less biased, because I think the art world is incredibly biased.

Matthew Dols 6:12
It does definitely play favorites, that’s for sure. And it seems like there’s an in crowd and out crowd. And it’s really hard to cross those boundaries.

Marine Tanguy 6:20
I’ve gone through every stage of the sector where when we disrupted it with a new model we were not liked, we’re now back to being in and out constantly. Because, you know, like today, we’re about to announce that we’ve sold to major Foundation, four of our artists, and we are, you know, in and out and, and I was on the VNA museum this week. So I feel now I’m very moderated as a person I see value in in the way the sector is running equity, equity values in in making sure it’s being kind of innovated, I think I’m not I’m a middle aged person. But I think I’ve come to middle aged side of my carrier where 12 years in, I have seen a lot of things. So and also because we are doing well, I’m just, you know, I’ve just want to make sure that as many people are backing my artists and whether they’re in or whether they add us, I want both of them. So I think you know, as a company, we are talking to both sides, we don’t really have a preference of every side,

Matthew Dols 7:17
one of the things that I find very interesting, and don’t get me wrong, I want to make something really clear. I love your agency model. I think it’s really amazing. Like, I grew up in a time and was trained in a time at what I believe was pre any of these kinds of agencies for artists existing I’m 4747, I’m 47. And they just didn’t exist. So like, it’s one of the things where like, I wish these existed back then because they didn’t, or at least they didn’t in America where I was raised. So anyways, all for what you do and loving it supportive of it. And I just want to learn more about it. So just to be clear on that. That’s very sweet. So one of the things that I find really fascinating is that you seem to sort of ride that balance of doing like working with artists commercially, like working with, you know, corporate clients, so to create ad campaigns, and I saw window displays and other things like this for like companies and for profit kind of things. And you also seem to work with public art programs and and your cultural institution so that you’re able to take your artists, both into sort of the commercial art world as well as the fine art world. Is that right? Is that right? Am I see it correctly?

Marine Tanguy 8:34
Yeah, it’s really interesting. So obviously, I’ve had very academic studies and friends, where people end up professors, politicians, or journalists, that is it in terms of Management Studies. And I’ve had then an exposure in Los Angeles, because I was lucky that an investor approached me when I was 22, to have a man gallery in LA. So which was met, but much more like a marketing exposure, because I got to open a gallery with celebrities and the LA world, which was something very different to the intellectual world. And then I got to learn how to do business in the UK, which is in terms of trade also, like a different kind of training. I guess, as a person, I think, kind of going back to the idea of sales. I’m not a sales person, they could sell anything, I’m someone that could sell something that I truly believe in, in the same way that when we built it out, you know, we built it on values. We were one the first B Corp in the art world, and we had our ideas of what the ethics of the company would be and as much as what the execution of the company would be. And in a weird way, a lot of my team is much more left wing than right wing, which is still something that will be quite rare for the sector we end and that’s because there’s a really clear understanding to the values of why everyone is in the system that we in. And also therefore, why the execution matters so much and I think Monday here is a tool to make your vehicle to make sure that the that everything can happen And I became very comfortable with that because I didn’t account for money. And I knew that fine economics is essential if you want to make anything happen in the world we’re in. And I’m definitely not someone that’s Tirpitz about it, I think are more someone that generally one tends to happen at a more pragmatic about how much change one can generate. I mean, I’m really comfortable with the social values that we have. I’m very comfortable also about the fact that, you know, we are people who are incredibly excited when we close a deal. And yeah, we salespeople, I think, in that sense, but I think we, we are weird socialists of salespeople, which I think is quite rare for the sector we in, but we are definitely Yeah, I mean, my company, every time a deal is closed on a daily basis, or every two, three days, like, it is a celebration, like that’s why we wouldn’t be a foundation of a charity because the people who work with me I excited for the growth of the company. And there is that relationship with finance. Equally, none of us could work with people or projects that we didn’t feel were moral. So it’s just, I think, for me, that’s what business should be. And so I don’t think it’s it makes us any saint, I think it’s just, it’s a nice quality of life enables us to all of us to wake up in the morning knowing that we are doing the right thing, but having a grace that we would wish for. So it’s a very comfortable way to live, I think.

Matthew Dols 11:24
Oh, yeah, I mean, but are generally creative. People are the worst with finances. We are like we don’t like commodifying ourselves, like, Well, you know, whatever, snobby sort of fine artists, people don’t like doing this, and they’re really bad at it, too. You know. So to have a group of people and agency that support an artistic practice sounds like magical to me, like you’re sound like some sort of great unicorn riding on a rainbow kind of like, never happens that

Marine Tanguy 11:53
I think like the arts are working incredibly hard with us. I’m very cautious about what I say. Because even when we sign them, I didn’t want any false expectations. I think it was really nice. Like, I remember writing the Christmas card at the end of last year. And thinking there’s no not a single artists, we haven’t provided greater fortresses this year. And that is something that I feel proud of, because it’s important that they all feel that way. But it’s Yeah, I just I’m very cautious about projecting any form of dream. I think I’m much more into like, regular action making with them and, and I hope they’re happy ethic ultimately, you know, they also somehow our clients as well, as much as we pay them, there are still people that if they are unhappy, this will be a bad thing for the company. But But yeah, I’m incredibly fortunate with them. I definitely have had works as artists with taught me how to behave with them. And and I’m very grateful for that. I think David severs hi bessho Jenny Fabrice has been with me for at least six years, Leo as well for four and, and they’ve, they’ve taught me how to be I think in that kind of relationship. And I think the rest are now entering a company that is doing well and and I’m sure this is it’s nice, I’m sure it’s a nice feeling in the current times to be entering something that is safe and that is dynamic, you know,

Matthew Dols 13:15
what, okay, I’m interested in that so like the the sort of the nuts and bolts of it because like I’m picturing Okay, so let’s say let’s say theoretically, I know this is gonna happen, but your agency represented me is and then because like I was looking at like all the different sort of projects you’ve done Be it corporate, be it public, you know, institutional are those things that were like the institutions or the or the companies come to you and then you find an artist that fits them or to the to the artists say, Hey, you know what, I really want to work with this company, and then you pitch it to the company. Which way does how does that all work?

Marine Tanguy 13:50
The best way I know it sounds mad because we’re still in the finance sector. But talent agencies have been around for a very long time in LA specifically, I was lucky to meet Michael ovitz for quiz ca. And this is very much someone that emotionally I’m very tied to, because he’s the one that’s opened up my eyes to that reality when I was very young. And it’s that simple. It’s just people who go out there and make sure that contacts come to them or you pitch to contacts. It’s just one of the oldest way to do business. But all of us like and I speak for my team. So Bree was at work before she joined us Yan had a creative agency for 20 years before he joined us and sold it to join us as well at least also had an art company for five years before she joined us as well. There will be people who are and there’s more obviously but I’m just that’s my most senior team. And if I think of them, they are smart, agile, very creative, got great network knew how to nurture network and continue for that and then work to expand and they very good on speed. So they know that if something arises in a portunity they can cruise it fast. And they also just in inspired trust like you know, crime. Artists dress them, like if they say something like you just, you know, you know, it’s just on city. But like, I think I guess from a personality trait perspective, they can do vamana easily they can talk about problems as it is they can talk about challenges easily. So there’s a trust that occurs from the client to the talent really quickly into this people. And which means that large projects are being given to them, because you know that if at some point deep into a large projects, an issue rise, and they’ll be here to fix it, and and they will be able to kind of measure. And I think that’s the relationship I have with the artists, they trust us to handle the good and the bad, and my clients are the same. So it’s that simple of just make sure you speak to people everyday, you just respond to the needs of they actually have no inventories that I don’t have, and then try to match this needs with people that you know,

Matthew Dols 15:51
yeah, it sounds great. All right.

Marine Tanguy 15:55
You’re not It’s not like I didn’t come from a network. So it’s not it’s, I understand, I think what it is, it’s, it’s more of a compromise to how much you want to give to people like, my phone explodes every day with just my WhatsApp will go, maybe 200 to 300 messages a day, not saying I’m busy, but just saying that you are devoted to making sure people are okay. And people are nurtured and supported. And I think I understand that this is not the dream of everyone. But at the same time, if you look after people, and they look after you and nurturing your network is as simple as that. So I do believe that everyone can do it. I think most people might find that a bit much, which I understand. But whether or not this is accessible, I think it is accessible to kind of do but it’s just more, it might be feeling like this a bit much, which that’s that’s the choice of life, I forget my head.

Matthew Dols 16:49
Okay, do me, do this. Walk me through like an average day for you like what? So you’re talking about how you, you know, you do work with clients, and you nurture all these different people like, what is your general workday look like.

Marine Tanguy 17:03
But I think I didn’t really have an average day. Also, at the minutes I I’ve really so we’re very lucky wishes, you know, most of our revenue by three last year, so had new hires, plus new investors joining us as well. So by far majority shareholder am 72% of my company. So this is not like a company run by investors. And my actually, the half of the rest of that person’s ages split between man praise artists and investors, it’s very kind of egalitarian way for them to be entering the company. But it does mean for me, my priority is to make sure that everyone is being empowered to lead the company. So it’s less about me, it’s more about them, if that makes sense. So my days are spent a lot on making sure that people can lead especially the senior hires. And after this, like people, I talk to people all the time, because it is my job. So I’m always on the go to talking in terms of pitching I mean, every time I have an idea and make sure that I pitch it to who is relevant, same from the PR side. Same from the artist side, I’m always on the go to kind of redirect them to station committee and and, you know, you just basically just trying to be as knowledgeable as possible, jump into as many meetings as necessary, because you didn’t want to be doing things on necessery. And then for me my priorities, absolutely, that I’m known as a company that hire very smart people and the top of what they do. So I need to make sure those guys are really happy. And that is my top priority right now.

Matthew Dols 18:33
Use the term knowledgeable as possible like hat. So for you at your level, because like i To be honest, I’m a bit intimidated talking to you. So I’m a little scared here. So bear with me.

Marine Tanguy 18:44
I’m currently in the jumper so there’s no intimidation whatsoever.

Matthew Dols 18:49
No, I promise there is intimidation. I’m quite scared here. So I’m trying to be as professional as I can. So you use this term knowledge as knowledgeable as possible. So like, how do you keep up with being as knowledgeable as possible? Because, like as an artist, so like I’m sitting here like, I try to keep up you know, I read what i can i watch videos is I can I go out and you know, meet people and try to nurture and build new relationships as much as I can. But the question is this sort of, you’re on a different Echelon to me that as far as I’m concerned. And so I’m asking sir, like, what are the practices that you have to sort of keep as knowledgeable as possible?

Marine Tanguy 19:27
I think what I’m very fortunate to have, I guess, as a person it is I have a mix of add, but also very good concentration. And I don’t know how this landed but it did land and it means I can be in a room for 10 hours and apply something but it also means that like if after now like I feel the meeting has gone around three times. I definitely have really add she add. So I think my brain is capable and and that’s something that’s the biggest struggle for us entrepreneurs or artists is had you do The quick task really fast and how do you make sure you leave time for the reflection and the the long term vision. And that will be through books, a really good conversation with people to really good brainstorming through really good articles. And it’s usually long articles as well, you can’t do the short articles for that kind of things. So I did it, I just feel First of all, I feel my brain needs it, my brain needs to back to kind of the values of the company, I need to understand the wider context and why I do things the way I do, because my brain needs to compute the reason the actions are being done that way. So I think there’s, I’m sure there’s a bit of worrying there. But yeah, it’s fortunate like it is, I’m able to really like you know, this year, there’s a book that’s being published on my side on our studies for visual diets, how images impacts you and shapes you. But I’m really able to put long term goals and just make sure that they are getting done, even if the daily is kind of really over overwhelming because it is. And the reality is I work obviously very hard. But I’m lucky that if I do commit to a long term goal, I will see it through as as challenging as the long term goal is. And and I see books, and I see learning and knowledge in the same pool of that. But equally, like my emails are quite abrupt to my WhatsApp acquire branch because my small tasks have been done in a very fast way. And I’m sure it will be much nicer sometimes to be drafting a five paragraph email. And that will be the much more civilized way to kind of go about a relationship or an ongoing conversation. But the realities are in my current time management. And also because I’m a single founder like Michael Reese had Forza partners, I am a single funder, I don’t see the time to do that. And that’s therefore the compromise that I’ve made the definitely people who have said that is too abrupt was too direct. But it just it comes at times where I couldn’t do the rest if I wasn’t making sure that the quick decisions are made quickly and efficiently. And then the rest can therefore be allocated more time to it. I mean, there’s only we all have the same amount of time. So there’s times where you have to make compromises and how you go about it, basically.

Matthew Dols 22:11
Yeah, yeah. And you said long term vision. So what’s the long term vision that you are currently working on? Because I’m sure it changes over time.

Marine Tanguy 22:19
So for me, my vision has actually not changed. So I think it’s a generic, because essentially, your comments, I’m curious about the intimidation, because I think I guess like I’m really the the boss that is like on flat shoes all the time making jokes and cooking for the team, and, and ish. I’ve obviously intimidated a lot of people. I’ve even in fact, had people writing horrible things about me. We did, I didn’t know at all. So I just I’ve always found that fascinating, because, I mean, obviously I work hard. I had that vision that is very solid. But it does. We do generate really strong reactions. Apparently yesterday we were the talk over three hours conversation at Sotheby’s on facts that were completely wrong. Apparently, I came from a nice accounting background, which is the reason why we were successful, and which is absolutely not the case. And it just it’s fascinating to me, because I guess I’m the way I see my daily is I just I’ve worked really hard for past 12 years. And I want to kind of make sure we get there. And I want to make sure that everyone that’s part of this gets tagged in one piece. And that is my auto concentration. And it’s the same with my friends. It’s the same with my family. I just want to make sure everyone is basically safe in that sense. So I do have that perception that I’m sure it’s a lack of self awareness as well.

Matthew Dols 23:33
Just to be clear on on my thing, like why I’m intimidated by you. Okay, I’ll tell you it’s a two fold thing. One, I’m intimidated by your CV, you have an incredibly impressive CV. I come from academia. I’m impressed by CV, like

Marine Tanguy 23:49
this, that’s not a very impressive Academy CV.

Matthew Dols 23:53
Oh, yeah. But that’s sort of the point what, but that’s what is even more impressive to me is that you don’t have any of that sort of formal training, yet, you have been able to figure out a way that the other people who maybe have great academic CVS haven’t been able to be successful, you have been able to be successful. That’s one that’s part of my intimidation. Second part of my divination is you are very good at your public branding. So like when I read through all of the CVS and I read through all of the articles and watching some videos of you and things like this, like you come out in a very strong, confident way and do not mean that in any negative way whatsoever. I see it as a strength and a positive. And you come out in a way that makes me go like, Wow, she’s so much higher, more knowledgeable, more informed, more whatever, like,

Marine Tanguy 24:47
I just think higher is the right term. I don’t think anyone is higher. But I think that’s the, the French don’t really like the idea of severity. As we all know. They didn’t do well in the idea of it. I like the idea of being equal,

Matthew Dols 25:02
higher in the echelon of the art world.

Marine Tanguy 25:06
Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting, you know, the confidence that I have is I genuinely have seen so much in such a short space of time, because anyone who just thinks fast, see things that are difficult, I think, and so. So it’s true that I, you know, people don’t Christ that we handle, I would be able to handle it in one day and process it in one week, because I’m used to kind of seeing things in a way that for somebody else, it might take six months, we might, it might take a year. And that’s just because I’m used to almost kind of see all the colors of what life or human beings have. And, and also, you know, I’ve been in a place where generally it was completely broken, or so far off to a place where I’m now more privilege. So my my range of experiences of life, exactly does mean that I don’t think anyone is higher, and does mean that I, you know, I There’s not a day what I don’t think we’re not, we shouldn’t push harder as a company, because of this. So the the sense of safety is built specifically on that consistency of working and and i think i guess i know why I’m in the room for I generally want to be adding value to the sector. And it’s, there’s no other reason why I’m in this room. So I think understanding why you’re in the room does have to be in the room, because I don’t care if at that point, someone thinks I’m attractive or not, or like me or no to whatever, you know, it’s just the point is, is that I know exactly why my purpose is at that point in time. And I guess that is a big relief to make sure that you can execute things because you cannot be worried about the rest of things in terms of the vision, I guess the vision of Mt. Ss which become a CA for the visual arts. That’s always been since day one. And that would, you know, that will take me a lot of work. But I lately got a little message of Miko, which made me feel very happy. So I guess there’s another 50 years to go. But one can do that, in terms of my specific vision. So I’m really interested in the inequalities in the sector. That’s much more the reason why I’m here than building a talent agency. Building a talent agency is an enabler to making sure that I can crack what I feel is the sector that is on accessible economically to work in it because my intense of paid because my staff is paid well, because my martyrs are paid. So I’m trying to build a system that’s more economically viable, have that as a first trial with a company, and then be able to understand it so that I can apply it to the areas of the sector. But I can also empower those people who are trying to do it, whether it’s financially, whether it’s through resources, that’s really why I’m also so happy that you entrepreneurs join me as part of the ride, because I value people who trying to do things that are difficult, and it’s also where I feel that whether it’s a book, whether it’s the investment financially, I will be more on that personally. And I think anyone who knows me, therefore, sees me boiling much more around the near qualities than the rest. Because the talent agency is all to do with that we do feel it’s a faster, fairer way to get to success, which doesn’t require to make any more sacrifices, and also means that the team can be well paid along the process of that. And same with the artists. So there’s a really couldn’t be called, I guess, understanding I’m trying to crack and there’s it comes out out of someone who hasn’t done business studies. But I found, it kind of makes in that sense really interesting. Like I would I think I would have died during a marketing course, because I found that really boring and very non interesting. But I found telling good stories really interesting. I found communication in telling those good stories really key. And I found cracking social economical problems really interesting. But I think I come at it from more of a philosophical level where I’m like, how can we make sure this happens? Even if it’s not the easiest options? How do we make sure this is being enabled? I think it’s more the way I come at it. More that commented on literally the market. And let’s see where the gap is. I think I’ve never been that company that has studied the gap and therefore created a gap. I’ve been more than a company that just felt it was the right thing to do to create what we were creating. And we will make sure that it works for that reason. And look, in doing that we have created a gap. But it’s there’s a way to think about it. And I think it’s further away from the business schools kind of thinking it’s more I guess, the philosophy thinking towards it,

Matthew Dols 29:35
what you brought up like inequality. And I’m, I would love to hear a little bit more about like what you are defining by this inequality. And I believe that it has something to do with your philanthropic work as well. Yes,

Marine Tanguy 29:45
I help a foundation called Malika who’s helping young girls to get into school, but it’s really tiny. And I think behind the scenes I tried to give resources or access to mentoring programs or any form of things that I see Like the house counselor, okay mentor and part of who would just like give the give assess Malika is because I feel they’re doing an incredible job shoes Love is the same, they the way they are helping refugees is very key. I don’t do enough of that I should be doing more at the minute, every single of my time is taken into mtrs. I cannot wait to do more as the answer. But we still gave 10% of our profit last year to charities from the outside. But you know, it’s definitely it won’t change the world like what we doing, but it will is the best we can do. Because at the minute, a lot of resources have to be reinvested into making sure we grow to where we want to grow. In terms of inequalities that figures more, I think that the out sector currently, whether you are working for foundations, or museums or galleries doesn’t pay you well, because there’s not enough resources. And it also means that 90% of the people who are in the sector, and I suddenly think it was gonna be worse with COVID, you come from very privileged backgrounds. What bothers me with this is that the fact that if I’m talented, or if anyone is talented, for that matter, they can’t get into the sector as we speak, the only reason I was able to get into the sector is because my education was free. And then I had this pessimists mix of luck, basically, which is suffering, I think, from an Anglo Saxon sector is difficult to see. But that is very much at the socialist angle that I was exposed to things like fine arts museums, or ballet or opera or anything coming from a low middle class background, which is not even working class background, there was still means that I could be exposed to things that the upper class would be exposed to here. So that’s what I mean by inequalities. And this the way scmt out solving it is because we pay our artists fairly, we give them more commissions, and in a gallery system, we pay our team very fairly so you know, they can have maternity leaves they can have with decent living, very nice living winters are in the same position. That’s the way they kind of trying to work out how do you do a job that is right, that is socially driven, that is full of passion, but also does mean they can make enough aligned that everyone was part of the company is supported. And, and that’s that’s what I’m trying to crack. Like, you know, if you if you’re a single mom, you wouldn’t be able to work in my sector is too expensive, and is not visible from the the taking care of the child, especially in the Anglo Saxon world, preserving a decent wage. But the issue that I have is that single mom could be very smart and could be adding tons of value to the sector. Right? So back to a talent agency, were we interested in talent, I wouldn’t want that to be barrier, I would, I would want that person to be able to apply to us if she was really kind of right for the position. So that’s what I mean by my interest in solving the inequalities is how do we build business models that are resilient and sustainable and means that they can include everyone at every level of their social backgrounds. Because ultimately, they do pay them well as well and enable them to therefore leave on the job that they love doing. And that’s not the case currently across the sector.

Matthew Dols 33:09
You brought up like parenthood and maternity and all this kind of stuff. Now I know that you’re also a mother as well. Yeah. I often ask people like what the who have children, whether that impacted that sort of that transition of preach, having a child to post having a child changed your outlook in any way or your business practices or anything like that.

Marine Tanguy 33:30
I mean, it’s again, difficult for me because I really, I’ve got the same vision since I’m little so I think it’s urgent. You know, I’m lucky that I really have quite a bit of that purpose early. And eyeglass My son is it’s just like, you know, it was born an explosion of that purpose because he was Welcome to people who believe in that too, and who are working to him. I mean, at this stage of my life, we are beyond privileged first my way or less done, my partner’s done 50% of the job with me. And that is, you know, that is always more than most women would have, then I can afford to pay for nursery from Monday to Friday, then I also have a company culture that’s defined by me whereby, if at 6pm we haven’t finished Yes, working, my son can still be in the room and doesn’t shock anyone coming back from nursery. So you know, I think in reality, I am in one of the most privileged section of having kids, and that is specifically what bothers me is that it shouldn’t be a privilege and also, it’s I still I mean, I didn’t take my chance to leave so I would clarify this on that basis. I would want my employees to take my sleeve I would never kind of say do not take maternity leave by all means that’s not the company I’m building. Yes. Okay, well, you’re about to actually see him because he’s sick today.

Matthew Dols 34:53
Oh, I hear the cough. Oh, hello, Atlas.

Marine Tanguy 35:00
Cuz he’s sick today. So you see, you’ve interrupted us at the perfect timing during when we were talking about you, which is very respectful and very put together of you. I’m aware, like there’s a great book about this called cash was bad for you on how, frankly all women who have kids drop out of my sector if they don’t have support, like it’s a table age. And it just, it’s just heartbreaking, I think. And the ones will have one dropping now are the ones who were resilient enough to last for 10 years. But they were resilient enough with the anxiety that they wouldn’t be able to make it work. So it’s, it’s just depressing. And I’m still white and middle class. So it’s not like working class with a form of diversity or anything like this, which will make it completely worse. Do you want to say something? is very sick? Hi. himself today, I’m afraid. But yeah, so I think it’s, it’s like no in my company, but we’ll have the right policies. But it just breaks my heart to be reading the book. I’ve read this book thinking how my god like the stats are even worse than I thought the stats will be.

Matthew Dols 36:11
Oh, you should come to the Czech Republic. My the maternity leave here legally by the government is three years. Wow. That’s by the government.

Marine Tanguy 36:22
But that’s amazing, though. That’s really good.

Matthew Dols 36:25
Yes, it is.

Marine Tanguy 36:26
What countries are very good as well. There’s definitely, there’s loads of examples. And, and I think that’s really the thing that also sets me up for education on, there’s so much has been proven that investing in this areas is a good thing. Having women who are happy and work and impaired is a good thing, just purely economically. Like if the conversations to do with money, then it does make sense, but it is yeah, in the country I’m in in the UK is definitely not is that it’s not pretty? In terms of the way supplied.

Matthew Dols 36:56
Okay, so wait, now, I wanted a little bit here a little bit more about your book? Has the book actually been published yet? Or is it still scheduled to come out?

Marine Tanguy 37:03
Yeah, so we didn’t know yet the exact date, we are editing everything in minutes, which is very painful. And the idea is to kind of very much have an awareness on how, like, how images impact you from, like, you know, the sorry, because I think come you gonna have to cut this.

Matthew Dols 37:28
Cuz he’s willing sir, sorry, maybe, maybe not. I love the I love it. So I might not cut it.

Marine Tanguy 37:38
He is feeling very sorry for himself today, you are having a miserable day, it’s okay, we all have a day where we think I just feel crap. And I want the whole world to look at this and say, You’re right to feel crap. And that is your day for feeling that way. So it’s really thinking from high majors impacted you and how over the past 200 or 300 years, depending on what kind of like visual background you got raised into, then you were shaped to be a very different person. And the effect that this would have had on you, from an architectural perspective, what’s in your house, how is your house, digital now advertising politics as well, then, therefore giving you a toolkit on how you can best see that and how you can best understand the impact of images on you. And also having you being more participative in that matter. So I knowing what to do to participate in that conversation, and how to make sure that you know, you, you know that you can participate and have a voice as being heard, whether it’s digital and curating what you’re looking at whether it’s public art and creating what’s on your streets, but you have actually got a voice, even if you have no means to have it, you will still have a voice. I mean, as long as you have access to your phone, but even if you don’t, then there’s a level of public art that you could hopefully have a level of access to. So hopefully less accessible enough for us in the Western world to have access to, I

Matthew Dols 39:07
used to run a public nonprofit in the United States, it was a public art program where we did like installations of, of sculptures, and we would rotate it every six months in order to try and part of the goal was to try to educate the community on what they defined as good quality art, you know, because like they had never had any sort of public art before murals, not nothing. And so the that’s part of my background is doing public art and engaging in that and trying to help to educate the we’ll call it the consumer but the general public the people that engage with public art and and try to help to educate them to know what they like better because like I find that a lot of people don’t know what they like. And on the flip side, they also don’t know what they don’t like so like they they don’t they don’t know They just say like yes or no, but they don’t know why. And so they can engage in that conversation of why do these things work? And why do other things not is very interesting conversation.

Marine Tanguy 40:10
Yeah, I agree. I agree. But that’s the belief versus the more the urgencies were of it, which is why we’re doing this as well, then the more they can pass the bait, and the more that democratic soon, there’ll be the hope with it, basically. So I agree with that.

Matthew Dols 40:25
Okay, so I’m interested, let’s go back to step two, the whole scenario of the artists like so I know, you get like insanely large amount of artists wanting to be part of the organization, your agency. So like, when you when you find an artist that you like, do you keep with them? Like how long is your relationship with an artist, on average,

Marine Tanguy 40:50
like, I mean, they can go, it can go for, as long as it’s successful in the sense, like, I think the contract is three years to be renewed. I mean, a lot of my early guys have renewed it to give you an idea, because when it works, there’s no reason to stop it. We do have a trial phase, and I would just never encourage anyone to stay in the ratio, that’s not beneficial for them. I think, obviously, for us, the reason we sue kind of careful on the getting them on board is also because I would hate that we failed them. You know, it’s so exciting to get on board to something that it’s it’s heartbreaking. It doesn’t work out. So I’m trying to minimize as much as I can that disappointment as well.

Matthew Dols 41:34
What I mean, okay, so for a learning experience for like, myself and listeners and stuff, like, what are some of the things that maybe artists did poorly, or that made it so that that relationship was not successful? Try, you know, in order to try and educate us so that we can do it better? I mean, do you mean talking about mistakes, I don’t have to mention names like

Marine Tanguy 41:55
100. Together, that just makes a lot of mistakes. I mean, just as recently as this week, although they were very sweet, because they felt very guilty, we have an artist group. So it’s not that I shamed them. But I did jokingly said, this was ridiculous. And the artists all responded with gift gifts. Okay, they all responded with gifts, feeling very sorry for themselves, because they felt very much like idiots, but they sent the wrong prices. And for four of them two major Foundation, and two of them made mistakes on their website, that were the pricing not being the pricing they wanted, which meant that by the second is out there on the internet, I can’t retract what’s being said. So we had to learn to sell because in the four cases, this was actually a low amount, not a higher amount, which is very silly. It’s a silly mistake. But it’s not like it’s not something we can fire them, I think it’s lovely that they are working out in their setting so much, and that they have, you know, this complacency between their pricing. So that’s more of a joke. I think the mistake that I see is people think they can do it on their own. They forget when success happen. I see them going on their own, I see disaster. Because I think my job is like a ballet dancer, we have to pretend it’s all easy to make sure the context come in to for the success to happen. And then the mistakes that can be done is always arrogance. But being pretentious, arrogant is always a mistake. And then they go out in the wild, they use some of the track record that was built and then six months later dies off. And then and then they struggle financially. And it’s just silly because there was no need. But that’s usually is bad advice from the networks that they have, who do not understand the job that we do, and will tell them or you could make more money if you did it on your own. But actually they forget that we have like eight people on the go. So which is a lot of money as well. And it’s just a degree of arrogance and arrogance is never a good thing in any in my job in that job. But it’s not a good thing. I think the other thing is lack of communication or trust just it’s like any relationship really, that’s always the most obvious one. You know, it’s normal. Like I imagine people who are not actually professionals, I’m expecting this kind of done foes. And frankly like if that’s the thing if they do better without us I’ll be delighted because we also have worked on our collections be so much better than I think that kind of fell. I think failing for arrogance is silly, fairing because you’ve got an even bigger capacitors in the house was waiting with arms open. That’s great. Like the works now collection will rise. You provide a rise, the work we’ve done for your reputation will actually increase like it’s a good story. veiling because you felt you were bigger than you were that’s just really stupid. And suddenly I’ve seen more that than the other way around. Because I’ve been the ones that actually successful understand how to get us on board with the bigger question as well so they understand that they should get it One on board for them and not divided, because they are much smarter about it. So they, they emotionally smart enough to make sure that everyone works for them know that they divide and let people behind. So that’s more who I think is successful. I think the people who never had success will certainly get exposed to it sometime next to wrong decisions and make tons of more decision. I’m definitely not judging it. But it’s obviously a waste. It’s a waste of resources.

Matthew Dols 45:24
Okay, you said something in there that sort of made me think about the what’s the average age of the artists that you generally represent.

Marine Tanguy 45:32
And now we have a baby actually 25 up to 60. At the minute,

Matthew Dols 45:38
well, I would imagine that to be able to do the sort of the caliber of things that I’ve seen on your, your publicity and, and the, the, the be able to be humble enough to, like work in, in collaborative organization, like what the sounds like, would take a certain amount of maturity. Because like, I know, in my youth, I had made the mistake of being very arrogant in my youth. And as I’ve gotten older, I hope that I’ve gotten more humble, though not so totally humble, but more humble. Until I would imagine that older artists

Marine Tanguy 46:14
No, it’s I read it but even aged partially because a fit. It’s really just how you respond to fix as people who have had tough experiences to start with, like Raven and history. My two youngest are so common wise about it, like, like Raven is a rock, like she takes on the covenants the critic, she goes, like she’s currently just had a TV show secured ad, you know, multiple sales. And she really is like pro people, you know, Revell has had a lot of shed, you get to the point she is in, and she’s really young. So she has an understanding that this is tough. And you bought, which is valuable. And and actually, the recent example of people being a bit silly were order, because it was our first experience success. Yeah, I think your first experience your success is still something that’s is surprising. It’s just something that is new. So people do respond in different ways. But it wasn’t the youngest. I think it’s also for me, really, depending on how good your support network is. People who have parents were good advisors, or partners were good advisors, like relationships, like as he could get was doing really well. His wife is such a rock. And she’s also like, super chilled, very, like, she takes a lot of perspective. And also good friendships as well, like healthy friendships, not obsessive, not like, you know, intense, just like the ones that will give you what you don’t want to hear as well. Those ones will be able to not make that mistakes, sadly, the guys, we just don’t have that in place. That doesn’t go well. And I am sure I speak on behalf of anyone else in town sector. And then first the decision to how much to generate for us at that point. Because if you’re a brat, then you know comes to a cost where First of all, no one wants to take care of you. So from the team. And so you really need to be at a level where you’re sustaining, sustaining another 10 artists for us to be like, okay, we will we’ll make that effort. Or then it doesn’t work.

Matthew Dols 48:14
Okay. Within that, then the thing that I started wondering, okay. I’ve done commissions in my life, for clients and for corporations and for private people and stuff. And as a general whole, I hate doing them. But that’s because I think they were the wrong people. Because they they came to me and said, like, Hey, I love what you do. And I want you to do this thing that is nothing like what you do. So like, I guess the question is, is sort of like how do you find that ability to connect the right artists to the right, let’s call it client needs.

Marine Tanguy 48:50
I think we’re lucky that we haven’t had many of those experiences we look, I would make that decision completely upon the situation of the artists if the artist is currently lacking finance and need something to be boosting, be more flexible for the client. And it will all depends on what is right what is wrong. But we don’t really have clients who that I really love my clients, I actually feel that a lot of the time they are more flexible than my artists with that episode. They do really have people that I don’t enjoy working with on the plan front. I think I have a perfectionist artist and it’s not that they don’t want to be flexible that they just really have a clear vision again. So I’m used to that. I’m used to having two very headstrong people, but I think they implicitly have a lot of respect for each other. I think we have someone who’s really not in a great space.

Matthew Dols 49:50
No, he’s just I hope he’s not he’s just just like

Marine Tanguy 49:55
he just said, Oh, my God, you’re making the welfare miserable. Sorry, you will have to get the party’s coughing, because he’s coughing quite a bit miserable.

Matthew Dols 50:10
We can conclude it with one last question, which would be just what advice might you give to any sort of aspiring either a business professionals sort of want to go into the agencies or artists that might want to work with agencies

Marine Tanguy 50:24
on the artist front is really researched very well, who you’re approaching, I found that there’s a lack of research, you know, like you wouldn’t the same way that you said your clients asked you to do something that had nothing to do with you. I have lots of artists want to be represented, but they don’t really understand why that will be asked where there will be somebody else. So I think research is lacking. And then try to understand that and this is the part that’s important. Try to understand the, the the agencies or you must speak to first there’s always going to be Borges report, you’re more than anybody else. And so having a start with a surgeon says to start with is important, because you can always be known by everyone later. But there’s usually a support system of people that will trust you first and foremost. And therefore, I would have an understanding to why and how you can make sure you get to meet more people through that business people. I would actually ask our kids a question, do you have to sell business? Because it’s really hard, the same of an artist is just Is there someone else doing what you’re doing? Where you could partner up? Having? Definitely the answer would have been Yes. If someone was doing what I was doing for me. And from that exact point on then it’s just make sure you have Why is so glamorized is really hard in a good way. It’s the most meaningful thing I’ve done with obviously, being a mom as well. But it’s, it means 24 seven of challenges on a daily basis. So if you don’t have the way I just you should just join someone and just offer your skills and have your weekends like all normal people, and there’s no reason to pull us through on my love. There’s no reason to pull us through that pain. If that’s not actually something that’s essential. Sorry, there was lots of cuff interminably into it. I hope you will make the best of it.

Matthew Dols 52:16
I will keep it all in because it gives nice character shows your loving motherly, this is great. Well look at him. He’s just so unhappy today. I don’t know his normal looks. I’m not sure how that he looks. He looks pretty good looking. Because he doesn’t have like he’s not like there’s not like snot running out his nose or anything like he

Marine Tanguy 52:36
tried to kind of make sure it’s not too obvious.

Matthew Dols 52:40
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your time

Marine Tanguy 52:43
meeting you and if I can, anything that can do to help let me know if you want me to read anything just for the end. And I hope this is helpful.

Matthew Dols 52:51
That’s great. Yeah, you’ve been, you know, it’s just new knowledge for me. Like I didn’t know much about what an agency does or how it runs. So anything new knowledge is good to me. I’m ready, guys.