Transcript for Episode 042 – Artistic Director, Johanna Chromik, Vienna Contemporary (Vienna, Austria)

Published December 19, 2019

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-artistic-director-johanna-chromik-vienna-contemporary-vienna-austria/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly for me.

Johanna Chromik 0:15
Johanna Chromik

Matthew Dols 0:16
And you’re from

Johanna Chromik 0:18
originally from Poland. I grew up in Germany.

Matthew Dols 0:22
And you’re now in Vienna.

Johanna Chromik 0:23
I’m now based in Vienna. Correct.

Matthew Dols 0:25
So I looked a little bit through your history. And I know that you’ve worked with some galleries in Germany and not anywhere else, really. But I think you go somewhere else in the state. Yeah. Okay. You’ve now come to run Vienna contemporary art fair. Is that that’s the proper title for it. Vienna, contemporary art

Johanna Chromik 0:45
Vienna contemporary.

Matthew Dols 0:48
Alright, so the big questions with you is like about art fairs, obviously, because you because you’re also new to this. You just started here in January of this year. So you’re almost at your one year anniversary, which I’m going to celebrate? Good, good. Excellent. So I mean, in the grand scheme of things like art fairs, why have they become so important in the arts world? Like there was a time when I remember art fairs not being so important. And now they’re incredibly important.

Johanna Chromik 1:19
Why? Why?

Matthew Dols 1:22
Like, what what happened? What was the transition? What? What made them so important? I mean, not not only are they so important, but they’re everywhere. There are like 300 art fairs all over the world. Yeah, they are. Indeed,

Johanna Chromik 1:36
there is quite a big number of art fairs out there. And I think that there are a few reasons for that, for that kind of growth. In number of, well, of the art fairs. First of all, the art markets or the art, visual arts community community grew. So, of course, the number of galleries grew. And I think that as a platform, art fairs are very good in terms of well, visibility into in terms of sales in terms of marketing. And then at the same time, I believe that number of galleries is also not located in say, the hotspots like or the typical hotspots like New York, Paris, Berlin, or London, there are a lot of galleries, which are very, very interesting, which are, for us very interesting, in particular, in Belgrade, or in Warshow, or maybe marsay. And so for these galleries, of course, art fairs are crucial in terms of sales, and also in terms of creating a general audience also meeting many different art experts in one place at the same time. So one last thing I keep running into is the idea that this is where the art world is becoming more global, it’s more well connected, people are knowing people at farther distances away, basically. But it also feels like there’s sort of a mixed bag on that, because every now and then I run into people that say, oh, but it’s actually very regional in many ways, but yet global in other ways. So like, what role does the art fair have in that

Matthew Dols 3:21
sort of whole thing? Is it is it a pro con, good or bad?

Johanna Chromik 3:26
It’s always art fairs, some, some love it, or some seed as a necessity, but at the same time, he did, because in terms of just when we look at numbers, there are so many artists out there, but I think that they’re substantial for for the art market and for the galleries in particular. And when you look at our art fair, the Vienna contemporary, just a very good example of a regional fair, which it hasn’t existed for too long in the grand scheme of art fairs. How

Matthew Dols 3:54
long is being a contemporary existence,

Johanna Chromik 3:56
Vienna contemporary, its form in this form for about eight years. So that was the eighth edition, and before that, it was called Vienna faire. It also had another belong to another company. But Vienna contemporary itself. In this form, we’re going to run the ninth edition next year in 2020,

Matthew Dols 4:14
which actually blends back to a question that I always had years ago, I did the Toronto art fair and we, as a gallery, I was working for a gallery I was managing a gallery and we were always sort of very irritated by the fact that there was like this really poorly run poorly organized organization that was basically putting on the art fair, but they didn’t know anything about our they didn’t know anything about artists, they didn’t know anything about the needs of artists or artworks or galleries. And so it was it was a at a time when basically like event coordinator who knew nothing about the arts was basically said, Hey, we can make money off of an art fair by just throwing an artist through an art fair. But you’re different than that to the mean the industry has changed from that. That that is not tolerated anymore. Like whoever runs an art fair has to actually know something about art.

Johanna Chromik 5:05
I think at these times in particular, yes, I would, I would think so. But it’s not that bad, you know, to know something about what marketing and also event, managing and so forth. It can have advantages, I believe, but particularly, with particularly, now, when you look at the the art market, you also have to be familiar with, you know, the substantial not only with backgrounds, but also with the the topics and also challenges we are facing at the moment. And so I think that it’s, yeah, it’s advantageous. What challenges the challenges. Well, we are talking about, Well, as you know, about the mid size market and young galleries squeeze, which is one of the challenges we are facing, then of course, collectors, young collectors, how do we connect to them? And how can we get a home? How do you have to create them? Really? Yeah.

Matthew Dols 6:00
I mean, many of them, I mean, I know people in that age group, and they just, they don’t think of it naturally, somehow, it has to be either instilled in them from their family, or some friend or whatever. But it’s tough to create those new collectors.

Johanna Chromik 6:16
You think so? i?

Matthew Dols 6:18
Well, I think that that will that I mean, that it’s funny, it goes back to nature versus nurture concept that I always am wondering about, like, Are people naturally interested in arts? Or are they sort of taught to be interested in the arts? Like, so like, was it? Were you born into it? Like, my father is a painter, my mother’s an interior designer, so like, kinda was born into it? My, but whereas my brother has no interest in the arts whatsoever, so then it’s like, but is it nature? versus, you know, was it how we were raised and the experiences we had? Or was it just something inherent? So the idea would be that, yeah, I think the younger collectors are, they need to be sort of led to the water, I guess, like,

Johanna Chromik 7:02
in some ways, yes. But I also feel that, particularly for the past 10 years, visual arts opened up, or it became part of popular culture, in a sense via particular via social media. And,

Matthew Dols 7:17
yes, I need to caveat this with I just arrived in Vienna 20 minutes ago. So I know nothing about the market here. So I’m talking from my own experiences, which obviously are very different than here. So I mean, seriously, so educate me on the market here. So so young collectors are big importance. Young collectors. I

Johanna Chromik 7:39
mean, there are a few young collectors. But just as I think in every other city, I think it’s also a global topic, not only Viennese based or specialized, that, that there are young collectors, but you have to get to them or just as you said, awesome nurture then so this is also one thing we will tackle by well, as an art fair, you know, we exist or are visible for only four days a year. But we’re the whole team or part of Team is still here based in Vienna. And we work on this fair throughout the year. And so that means we can also be a partner collaborator throughout the year, and what we are going to do is that we will try to create events, or create other opportunities to get to those people and to connect to those people. But don’t ask me any specifics now, because we are like in the middle of, of planning and brainstorming,

Matthew Dols 8:47
I was just about to ask specific examples of what it is you’re away from, it’s fine. So yours but you said something about like mid and entry level galleries as well. So the the majority of the market here that it participates in your events, I shouldn’t even say everything here, but the ones that participate in your event are generally sort of on the entry level and mid level gallery live.

Johanna Chromik 9:14
I don’t know what to call where you have these established galleries. When we shared the Seder more like a family business. I was like Korean or Korean singer preact wasn’t that useful outside with Nixon, Stefan curry, gallery, and on and on. So these are galleries, which have been around for a few decades and also participate in all the very, very important international art fairs. And at the same time, you have these very young galleries, which popped up about or started popping up about five years ago, I would say. So you have a very interesting combination at the moment, very creative and very important momentum. For the whole city, and in particular, of course, for the art scene, and so we have a future that, in that sense, which is crucial for the contemporary arts in here with also at the same time, all the office spaces and stuff like that. But coming back to Vienna contemporary, yes, I mean, we have 123, real blue chip galleries, what you call them these days at the fair, but basically our core clientele are the midsize galleries and young galleries. And so we work for them to really create the perfect platform, the perfect, you know, backdrop for them to to work

Matthew Dols 10:45
well. And that’s something I run into is like the some people joke like when you go to an art fair, they all look like every other art fair. So it’s like it’s like what what are some things that you do there’s some how unique are some things you plan on doing in the future that are somehow unique that sort of will make the Vienna contemporary sort of stand out from all the others?

Johanna Chromik 11:03
Well, first of all Vienna contemporary really stands out because it has this focus on Central and Eastern Europe. So we have about 100 110 galleries each year 1/3, approximately comes from Austria. 1/3 is international 1/3. from Central and Eastern Europe. At the same time, we have a focus section with a focus regional focus country, which reflects this idea, and goes even deeper. And then in our pocket, you know, in our special categories, we also try to balance you know, 50 50% from that region, and international. So this is an asset and one of our main characteristics, I believe, which really clearly stands out. And I think that people in the art world, many people’s museum directors really appreciate this fact. And in combination with the city of Vienna, which is a very, very nice city. And as we know, the most livable city in the world

Matthew Dols 12:10
is what that’s what it’s been said yes,

Johanna Chromik 12:13
I think for the 10th time correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s the 10th time, but it’s really it’s a it’s a it’s of course, it creates momentum, or it’s a package, which is very attractive, and which is key and very important for us. And for the galleries with we are working with Have you

Matthew Dols 12:37
seen an increase in so it’s bad like because man, I’m looking I’m always looking at things naturally as an artist. So I’m looking at like, the quality of the work, is the work bad or which is a horrible word I know. But like, is the are the galleries bringing more interesting, more dynamic works and like our price is going up? Or are they stagnating? Like do you even pay attention to the prices that’s relevant to

Johanna Chromik 13:08
you? Well, I used to work for galleries. So okay, it is important it is also important for me as as the artistic director to get a feel to get an idea of you know, how much was sold and who sold and because at the end of the day, it’s all about the network, the contacts you bring home, and of course, the sales and so pretty interested Do you know any knowledge of like, what medium sells really

Matthew Dols 13:33
well anything but like subject matters that sell really well? Like any sort of statistics?

Johanna Chromik 13:40
That’s a good question. I mean, this kind of information is not mandatory, but it’s it’s of course the galleries give it to us on the on the on a very free freewill basis. And so we do not have a no, this What I’m saying is does not reflect or would not reflect You know, this. I’m always fascinated by it like

Matthew Dols 13:59
because I went to, I used to go to art Dubai and Abu Dhabi and they would have these like colossal pieces that somehow sold to somebody and I’m like, who has a place to even fit something like Dubai, of course they have places to fit things. But yeah, but even still, it’s like, you know, what medium seems like to me like young collectors would be worked on paper photographs, sort of inexpensive edition things to get people sort of interested in that. And then over the time of their collecting, they’ll start working themselves into paintings and sculptures and things like this. Like to me there’s sort of a hierarchy of entry to collecting.

Johanna Chromik 14:39
I think it’s it’s pretty diverse because it also really depends on for young collector, I believe, who is the gallery or who are the artists actually, who I like or who kind of catch my attention and then I know, a quite young collector here in Vienna, who’s so much into Video and it’s this is exceptional I actually.

Matthew Dols 15:05
But he he really

Johanna Chromik 15:09
collects his collecting a lot of video. And I think that 80 or 90% of his of his collection consists of this medium, which is rare, I must say it’s not, it’s almost a typical, but still, I think it’s it’s a very important medium or it should be also reflected. And so in the past edition, we launched this new video section, which is curated by a two year photographer from Kenya very, very wonderful curator based here in Vienna to create a different kind of accessibility. And at the same time, when you’re talking about editions, we launched a new a new section with that as well, because I think that a lot of people who are also visitors at the fair even though it’s a fair, even though we’re from, you know, the art art world, it’s very clear to us that you go there you can buy. And you can, of course, talk to the gallerist, and also artists, which, who are there, but with some visitors, it might not seem that clear. And additions can be one means to lower the threshold. And yes, the pairing something home, which is not necessarily that expensive, but the saying that I think that also at our fair, you can find and there are different ways, you can find a lot of works, not necessarily additions, but really originals was a paintings also drawings, photography, have a reasonable price, I think.

Matthew Dols 16:45
All right. So what’s the what’s the future of the well, in this case, obviously Vienna contemporary, but like, what do you see for sort of the future of art fairs as a whole? Like, how are they going to continue to build this momentum of new collectors, new generations of things? Like what are some things that we should be looking for on the horizon?

Johanna Chromik 17:08
Well, I think that art first will still be important in terms of being a platform and bringing all these different people and really together in one place. And when I’m speaking about our characteristics, central Eastern Europe, I know that possibly, in some countries or in some regions, cities are not that many collectors. So if they come here to come go to an art fair, there are the collectors and there are the museum directors, the International museum directors and and so on to meet at the fair, so it’s still an art fair is a good? Well, it’s a good backdrop to to work on your network, actually. And besides that, I think that art fairs can be a partner beyond that. And I think that to sustain to make art for sustainable, we need to dig into that a little bit deeper.

Matthew Dols 18:13
I’m always interested in my how people become in the creative fields that say so whatever in what part of the industry they work in, whether they’re practitioners or organizers, whatever they want to be. So they do you do? Were you brought up by creative parents?

Johanna Chromik 18:29
Not at all.

Matthew Dols 18:31
So how did you come to the creative industries?

Johanna Chromik 18:34
It was really clearly my teacher at school and my friends, actually,

Matthew Dols 18:41
as a professor, I’ll take that that’s good. Yeah, I

Johanna Chromik 18:43
like my pretty Of course, I mean, I can, I can only say there was it was very, very important for me because that teacher where he opened up doors and perspectives and, and a completely different horizon, my family. My mother was, she’s a nurse, and my father also has nothing to do whatsoever with with art or visual arty. He just like to read or likes reading still. But beyond that, nothing and so for me, it was so important to have a chance to get creative, become creative. I also thought about becoming an artist, but I didn’t want to take the risk. And it is a big risk. It is a big risk.

Matthew Dols 19:36
But I’ve had this conversation recently, like I graduated from art school back in, I think it was like 1999 something like that. It’s micro master’s degree. And the kids are coming out now because like I just talked to some kid who just recently graduated 2018 the potential opportunities and career paths As for them have changed dramatically. Like when I walked out of school 20 years ago, the teaching was a very good reputable, honorable way to make a living so that you could and could have free time and money to do your art. That’s not true anymore. The the the teaching industry is sort of being destroyed by adjuncts and lack of tenure and all kinds of stuff. It’s being whittled away, and they’re taking away all of our health benefits. This is in the United States, etc. And like, I’m in the Czech Republic, and they pay horribly, they’re literally horribly, like, I was shocked when I found out how little they pay teachers of any medium. So they’re very different opportunities, it be choosing to go into the creative industries, in any shape, or form these days seems like a huge risk, like a huge, you have to be very confident and believe in yourself, but ride that fine line of not being too arrogant or overly confident about it.

Johanna Chromik 21:03
Yeah. And I thought also that I was a little bit naive, at the same time. And I think that, for me, it was important to do something else and my parents and we, we moved to, to Germany when I was about six years old. And so for my parents, it was very important that I have a good education and that I finished school and this and that. And maybe also become a doctor or a lawyer, those typical things

Matthew Dols 21:31
prepare parent wants. But that’s the thing is late parents want stability and structure for all their kids. And then kids come up like you and me. And we’re like, No, I want to do this crazy thing that has no reliability that really doesn’t, as a outside looking from the outside doesn’t really like necessarily make a lot of money. But you had but you enjoy your job. Like, you know, I grew up with the idea of if you enjoy your job, you’d never work a day in your life. But there’s always administrative work, and there’s always a boss that will make it so that your life is miserable again, but

Johanna Chromik 22:09
that’s the different page. Well,

Matthew Dols 22:11
that’s my teaching.

Johanna Chromik 22:12
That’s the teaching. Yeah, I can understand.

Matthew Dols 22:16
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s interesting to choose to go into the kritis. So what how did you so you, I saw you, as I said, you went into some gallery works and things like this, how would somebody so like, one thing that I found interesting was like, how do you choose or transition from working in galleries to working for an art fair? pretty easily, I

Johanna Chromik 22:35
think because I also have a background with with collectors at the same time. And so I think that it’s it’s a combination of my experience and knowledge, which I can reflect in this, this art fair, I think that it’s it’s the perfect combination. To

Matthew Dols 22:53
know it’s not a question of, of your abilities, or knowledge or skills. It’s a question of like, why would somebody like, who’s working in a gallery go? Art Fair? That’s what I want to be doing? What what what is the draw to work for an art fair versus work for a gallery?

Johanna Chromik 23:12
Well, first of all, you have about 100 galleries to deal with. So

Matthew Dols 23:17
not only that’s a good problem, it’s

Johanna Chromik 23:22
it’s a it’s a good challenge. Okay,

Matthew Dols 23:24
good. Good.

Johanna Chromik 23:26
Definitely. So it’s a lot about, you know, the dialogue and the exchange you have you have with the, with the galleries, and I know that art fairs are still very important for galleries. And so for me, it was a question, of course of, how can I guarantee How can I build? How, what kind of vision can we have enforced for this for this art fair for the benefit actually, of the galleries and the artists and also other partners we are cooperating with so what was so interesting for me was to work with all those different partners. And of course, I kind of sell the fair, but I it’s a different story that when you, you know, do sales, app gallery

Matthew Dols 24:11
access, which sort of lends to the question of like, so how are these fares? Well, I don’t care. Okay. How are these fares? How is Vienna contemporary? How is it funded? Right? So do you get funding from the government? Do you do private sponsors, corporate sponsors, like or does it just run on its own income basically?

Johanna Chromik 24:30
Well, it’s running on its own income. And of course, we have an owner and we have sponsors. So these are the three main sources actually for us. So our owner with the board, then the income we get through selling the square meters, and other services, of course, and our sponsors but no state funding whatsoever. Really not. That

Matthew Dols 24:57
surprising.

Johanna Chromik 24:58
Yeah, there. There is. Well, this was the very first year where we got money from the city of Vienna for our new project or initiative called join the conversation where well we as a fair, we are the in, we take the took the initiative, and we do the program. But it’s not only about the fair, but it’s about you know, the contemporary arts in here in Vienna. And the money we receive were for was for well, making the program and also inviting all these curators from various cities, from whom of whom we knew that they were not that familiar with Vienna, so so at the end of day, when they go home, or they went home, they could spread the word, and maybe new collaborations and new partnerships would come off that and it was the premiere this year, and it was very successful. So we very much hope that we can move ahead in 2020, make it even a little bigger and receive maybe a little bit more funding from the city because I believe that it really is about time. And I’m not only talking as the art fair, but I think we can also talk or speak for the galleries and also the the young scene. In particularly, I think there must be more engagement from the city side or so from the state side. Because it’s it’s we have Sheila, we have claimed the end we have the opera, but we have this very exciting scene here. And it also must reflect actually, because if not, then it’s really a chance and opportunity which might be missed.

Matthew Dols 26:51
I say news to me. Like I don’t know anything about Vienna’s politics and governance and things like this. So. So there’s not a lot of financial whatever Support for the Arts in Yes. In Korea.

Johanna Chromik 27:06
Yeah, well, yes and no. So so it’s hard, but you also have, you know, this is what the colleagues and other countries are complaining about, let’s be straight with dabiq, some galleries, some galleries, they can receive funds for going participating in other art fairs, which are not in Austria, but which are I don’t know in Basel and so on. So there is some kind of funding, but I think and I think it’s totally fair, and it’s it’s okay, but there’s not enough, I think, also doesn’t that reflect in the story? Never heard a single person in the arts go,

Matthew Dols 27:49
you know what, I have plenty of money. I don’t need any more money. We’re good.

Johanna Chromik 27:53
Well, unfortunately, nobody. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 27:57
Maybe I just haven’t gotten to talk to them yet.

Johanna Chromik 28:00
But it’s also not not only a matter of spending money or how you know, a city or a state spends the money but it also is it’s it’s about how you create a narrative. Actually how you create the narrative in terms of about well, culture and also about visual arts and if the contemporary part is missing,

Matthew Dols 28:22
I was gonna say a lot. If I think about Vienna, I do not think about anything past like 1920s

Johanna Chromik 28:28
really not this. See, this is this is so

Matthew Dols 28:32
I mean, we’re nothing personal to Vienna, I’m just saying like, either I haven’t chosen to invest in my time and energy to find out more. Or they haven’t done a very good job of getting the word out to the rest of the world. I don’t know. It’s probably my fault. I don’t do enough research and maybe it’s me I’m lazy about those kinds of things.

Johanna Chromik 28:57
Really. So it’s a good thing. Good thing that you’re here I shouldn’t that you have all these talks coming up.

Matthew Dols 29:01
Well, that’s though, I mean, the podcast we’re I’ve already done Berlin, I’ve done some in Prague. I’m here in Vienna and then I’m hoping to go to Amsterdam and Helsinki and and Sweden and a couple other places. The plan is to go to like six more cities every six cities every year and do enough recordings to basically do two months so that I only have to go every two months and do recordings.

Johanna Chromik 29:28
All right, I see. idea.

Matthew Dols 29:30
So like this is a coming here I do 1717 is eight weeks worth my two months so that I get done in five days.

Johanna Chromik 29:40
Well, that’s a great idea actually. So it reflects really it’s about well for you based in Prague so naturally it’s it’s all around Europe no so it’s

Matthew Dols 29:50
well actually I mean, I’m I’m looking forward to I’m finding grants, mobility grants, and travel grants like in Macau and South Africa. Kenya and Brazil. And I’m just like, Oh, yeah, I

Johanna Chromik 30:05
want to do that.

Matthew Dols 30:07
Because to me, like, one of the things that I keep running into is like, so I went to Berlin, I’m from the United States and lived in the Middle East. I’m now here in Vienna. Even if I asked the same questions to you are going to get different answers. So, while there is a certain amount of global pneus, to the arts industry, there is a lot of uniqueness to individual regions. And as far as me know, because like, I’m sure if I went to Japan, and I said, like, hey, how’s business done here? Like, it’s going to be a total difference, then than anything I get in Europe? Yeah.

Johanna Chromik 30:40
I mean, it’s the locality No, we’re also talking about is is something which I think MTV did did wrong in the beginning. And then there was Viva caption for something Germany after, because MTV, well, everybody kind of liked it. But it was not the same as Viva because it also took into account the regional components. And

Matthew Dols 31:02
when I say Okay, wait, so going into that, so region, ality and exposure and marketing social media, do you use it? Do you like it?

Johanna Chromik 31:12
Yeah, I do. I mean, I’m quite a quite lazy. I’m really quite lazy and a little bit lame. And then I have so much to do. And I think, Oh, my God, now I have to pose and I forgot about it and stuff like that. But I’m so happy, of course, that we have someone in our team dealing Of course, with the Vienna contemporary account, and it’s super important. And I think that also for for galleries, and also for artists, it’s very, very important tool they can use. And I would not only say that it’s you know, it’s it’s all negative about social media. But I think when you use it right, or when you find your own language, then you can take advantage of it these days, it’s

Matthew Dols 31:56
really hard to find that sort of that right way to use social media. I mean, of course, I’m thinking Instagram, because I’m a visual person, but even Facebook, Twitter, I find useless, but the there is a sort of, you have to find your own way, like, you know, because there’s lots of, I run into this with podcasts to like, Oh, you need to do Instagram like this. And they try and give you like step by step instructions. And it never works. Like you have to find your own sort of personal corporate in the yorkeys voice of using the social media is the way that works best for your needs, not how somebody else tells you

Johanna Chromik 32:33
the other way around. Yeah, and because you can just see it actually, you know, it’s like still kind of authentic in that sense. When you can speak of authenticity.

Matthew Dols 32:46
You put authentic in quotations authentic like so like, authentic is not even authentic. It needs air quotes.

Johanna Chromik 32:55
Yeah, but in a sense that you control or you create this kind of story, which somehow is a is one profile, and it’s not a guided tour, through, you know, your life or your job or whatever, it makes a difference. I think that it’s somehow it’s being noticed,

Matthew Dols 33:22
really, you’ve you’ve brought the word story and narrative a couple times like this is something literally that I’ve had discussions with people about, and I actually do portfolio reviews also, for website. And I’m talking a lot about the fact of the the story behind the narrative of these are becoming exponentially more important now than they were again, like 2030 years ago, 2030 years ago, somebody could just paint an amazing painting, put it up on the wall and go, yeah, I made that. You want to buy it, it’s done. But now there’s, there’s this sort of need through this like narrative storytelling, authenticity of social media and connectedness that people want to feel, even with an artifact.

Johanna Chromik 34:07
Yeah. And also the experience at the end of the day, because I think that, well, social media can be a helpful and I think that the tendency towards well, that very individual experience will still bring us visitors because I think that are the tenants here, which I can see is towards, you know, this kind of exceptional experiences in that sense, which everybody longs for that and in a way to a certain degree. And so I think that this is also kind of a chance for art fairs, creating or giving catering to this idea of experiences or experiences. So it’s very interesting.

Matthew Dols 34:58
Any life experiences that you’ve had in your career that you can basically give advice to people, preferably what I look for is some problem you had that you somehow overcame that you’re like, yeah, look out for this to somebody else. So anybody that wants to work in the gallery industry, or the art fair industry, any sort of something to that you overcame that you can give advice so that somebody else doesn’t fall fall into the same problems. Sure, I

Johanna Chromik 35:28
mean, that you there are a few of these challenges. I think, I’ve been in the industry for quite a while because I started pretty early on, but I was still studying. So I think one of the key aspects for me personally, is not to become detached from the art itself, to stay close to it, because once you lost the interest, or once you lost the passion, I think it makes your life or your job kind of miserable. And this is one of those aspects are key moments, why I started to work in this field is it was really the interest for the arts. Not necessarily the money, and so on. But really it was this was at the core, and sometimes working in a gallery. Well, you have daily routine, you have the fairs, and this and that. And you might feel a little you know, far away far off from the art itself, even though it might sound a little schizophrenic, but it’s really, really good to stay in touch, particularly talk to a lot of artists and just spend time with them. And so to really enjoy it even further. And for a long, long, long time.

Matthew Dols 36:46
That’s very important. I love it. I often talk about passion. Like if you don’t have it, don’t stay in this industry, because otherwise the industry is just gonna eat you up.

Johanna Chromik 36:57
Yeah. I can agree.

Matthew Dols 37:00
All right, any others? You said you had many?

Johanna Chromik 37:03
Yeah, but this is the core.

Matthew Dols 37:04
Okay, most important. Got it. All right. My last question that I ask every guest the most difficult question. You have not listened to the podcast? I’m sure. So, yes. The question is, for this podcast, I created a quantifiable goal. So the idea of the podcast is I’m trying to make it so that anybody who listens if they listen to all the different conversations that they’ll glean little bits of knowledge from all the different people I talked to, and theoretically, they will know how to navigate the arts industry better to be more successful for themselves. Okay. So what I did was I created a quantifiable goal that I’m trying to achieve. And so I’m asking for people to help me achieve this goal, which is, I would like to get a piece of my artwork in the Museum of Modern Art in New York.

Johanna Chromik 37:55
What again,

Matthew Dols 37:56
I would like to get a piece of my artwork on exhibition in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City.

Johanna Chromik 38:03
So that’s a goal. And you asked me for kind of device, how can

Matthew Dols 38:06
I How can I, you know, theoretically, how can I cuz I’m doing this as a proxy for all the people listening. So like, how could I as an artists, put my career on the right path to get me to that goal? Well,

Johanna Chromik 38:22
you either Well, he doesn’t get to know the curator or get to know a good gallery for that and be on top of your work, never give up, that’s for sure. Create your network, be relentless, be passionate, and just, you know,

Matthew Dols 38:39
just the same, like the way to stick around or stay in the industry. Its network is very key. And of course, what we also talked about earlier on authenticity in a sense, in your work, the network comes up a lot. And it’s really interesting, because it’s really hard to build a network First of all, but then to maintain that network is also it takes work. It’s a I have a friend who lives in Prague, he’s British, and he has to fly back to London every three months just to see the people go to coffee. Say hi, just to keep reminding them hey, I’m still here. still making you know, it takes a lot of effort that I think most people think is easy to do.

Johanna Chromik 39:28
It’s the yeah that’s the point. I think every A lot of people think oh yeah, all these traveling and stuff like that. It’s It looks so fancy, but it Yeah, well, it might be fancy, but at the same it’s work. It really is work in our businesses has a very personal touch to it. It’s a personal in that sense that it’s good to hear when we are in a dialogue then it’s the best to be in a very personal dialogue where you know, like across the table and talk to one literally,

Matthew Dols 39:53
literally,

Johanna Chromik 39:55
always the key and this this is not only up Hop up, story, but it’s really it’s about the constant drive, you’re also showing. And that’s the, that’s the

Matthew Dols 40:07
hardest part I find. And maybe this is my own personal, you know, whatever my own self doubt, self confidence is lack of self confidence, whatever. But like, I can make friends really easily I can have great conversations. It’s the maintenance of that over years and building that that network and that group of people like the finding of your tribe, and then your, you know, your group, then expanding out Can I think like, that is the long term part of that I find to be the most difficult part.

Johanna Chromik 40:37
I think that a gallery can also help a lot, because they can take over, they can take over a lot of tasks actually make your life. And that is the dream. Yeah, that is the dream. ideally speaking, because this is really wood, wood. I think, traditionally, galleries are there for so that you can you can do your work in your studio. And while the gallery kind of works for you, with you on that project on your career on bringing you out there and placing you I think it’s a very, the task galleries have it’s very responsible. I mean, they have take on a lot of responsibility in that sense. I think Yeah. I think Yeah,

Matthew Dols 41:27
in a perfect world. I would agree with all that. I know galleries that don’t do all they

Johanna Chromik 41:32
don’t have that. Yeah, they’re such and such,

Matthew Dols 41:34
but I know a lot good. reputable international galleries. Yeah, absolutely. Though, they’re definitely do things like

Johanna Chromik 41:41
they grew Actually, it’s not you know, they it’s just the same. I think it’s also important for a career in the long term. It’s, it’s about growing in depth, it’s not exponentially in that sense. So it’s, and it also takes time, you have to deal with that as well. It cannot expect, you know, to have success or be in the moment while you can, but some some make it but I think that those careers are over. Quickly. Yeah, burn

Matthew Dols 42:08
bright and laughter Yeah, I know. I mean, I came to Europe going like, Oh, I can’t wait to be in Europe. I’m an American, I’m an artist, I’m going to be in Europe, they’re gonna love me and like, I’m gonna have exhibitions. Nobody gives a shit.

Johanna Chromik 42:26
But it’s nothing. Yes, I can. That is true.

Matthew Dols 42:38
But reality is very different. But But no, but the reality though, is that every time you change something dramatically, you’ve moved a couple times in your life as well, like you sort of have to, to a certain extent, to rebuild your whole career kind of things. Like, every time you take on a new role somewhere else, like you sort of have to build a new network kind of thing. So like, it’s always important to keep building that network, you can’t

Johanna Chromik 43:02
lls speaking of the global network of crews, I had already had quite a number of contacts, but it’s a different story in to be in that new position, that new role and to also become familiar with like other players and

Matthew Dols 43:18
your relationship changed to older Pete You know, it used to be that you were the place they went to buy artwork, now you’re the place they come to, to find out about galleries to go buy artwork, so like the relationship grew and changed. And this is this thing that maybe I’m just bad at it, maybe I just don’t

Johanna Chromik 43:37
trust yourself.

Matthew Dols 43:41
So in summation, your advice for getting into museum modern art was networking.

Johanna Chromik 43:49
Keep working, be passionate,

Matthew Dols 43:52
be passionate, that’s really quite a strong word are relentless.

Johanna Chromik 44:00
And then maybe have a gallery, which is its absolute thing to have, I think as a partner by your side, I would advise

Matthew Dols 44:12
on that is the dream. It’s everybody’s dream, every creative person’s dream to have a partner that’s working on their behalf.

Johanna Chromik 44:20
On and with you. I mean, it’s really it’s it’s actually in the in the ideal case, it’s really a partnership, which also which it’s being nourished and fostered, you know, throughout the years, and to going the way, you know that all the way together. That’s an ideal scenario, as we know, yeah.

Matthew Dols 44:38
Oh, yeah, no way. I’ve talked to people that they’ve said, you know, finding the right gallery is like finding the right spouse. But basically, it’s that intimate of a relationship that if you built it, you built it. Well, it will actually last your lifetime and maybe even after,

Johanna Chromik 44:53
yeah, that’s true. Can I agree? All right.

Matthew Dols 44:56
Well, thank you very much for your time.

Johanna Chromik 44:57
Well, thank you for coming here.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com