Transcript for Episode 059 – Director + Curator, Karina Kottová, Jindřich Chalupecký Society (Prague, CZ)

Director,Curator, Karina Kottová, Jindřich Chalupecký Society,Prague, CZ,czech republic,czechia,Ini Project,Artists exhibition fees,Liveable wages for artists,Not every artist and artwork is meant to be sold,How to finance art creation,Working Artists and the Greater Economy,Call Against Zero Wage in Prague: Art Workers' Organising in the Context of Eastern Europe,The myth of the starving artist,The need to pay creative professionals a living wage (at least),Know your value,The art grant system and how it is flawed,Be honest when you write grants,Grant writing,Art awards,Art competitions,Award judging,The politics of judging awards,The balance of aesthetics vs concept,The importance of an artist statement,Having a writer or curator write your artist statements,The need to be genuine in your artist statement,The need for artists to also be business people,Do not be a pushy artist,Anna Hulačová,Build your network, one thing leads to another

 

Published April 4, 2020

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/director-curator-karina-kottova-jindrich-chalupecky-society-prague-cz/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly

Karina Kottova 0:13
for me, Karina Kottova.

Matthew Dols 0:15
And you work for

Karina Kottova 0:17
I work for the Jindřich Chalupecký Society

Matthew Dols 0:20
which is a society that’s primarily about the award that is given out annually to, from what I understand which of course, my understanding is always wrong. Young check artists, is that correct?

Karina Kottova 0:35
Yes, it’s an award that is for tech based artists under the age of 35, which means they can also be able to nationality, but they have to be living and working in Prague or wherever places in the Czech Republic, or at least really exhibiting regularly. And yes, the society is quite big degree. I’m writing this award, but also over exhibition programs and kind of discursive programs. So we have a couple of program lines. The International Exhibition program is quite important for us. We quite often do work with artists that have been also nominees for the help Husky award, but not always. It’s there since 1990s. So there is a list of maybe 150 year artists right now who were nominated or won this award. And it creates a certain picture of the kind of post eight or nine and history of Czech, Czech art. So we use this as a kind of resource, but we also invite other artists and other thinkers, to our programs. One theory is that we are right now in and it’s very important for us. It’s called islands possibilities of togetherness, and it’s a series of exhibitions, but also ever programs such as symposia, our workshops, are our kind of gatherings that are dealing with the question of how can we assemble or think of different models of society or different models of family or different models of being together in relationships that would perhaps lay a bit more kind of sustainable ground for, for imagining the future. So that’s a program that we are very much involved in right now we are planning the first chapter that is going to happen in New York and art in general, this, this spring, the previous two were in Sofia, and indeed Blenheim, which is a small village in the Netherlands. So that’s one of the things and sort of because our society is now running for the 30th anniversary, or this year is, is the kind of anniversary year, we also are looking into the name that is so hard to pronounce in recolor pecky. And that the society is named after he was a Czech critic, theoretician curator that really quite framed the history of check of modern art, especially in the second half of the 20th century. And he was extremely interesting in his international contacts in his writings, from Marcel Duchamp through kind of Russian Neo avant garde through the of course, the local art scene, and we are trying to revive some of this legacy of his and look into it for contemporary lens, through the lens of artists working now curators that are that are interested in in similar topics, but maybe from a completely different and more and more contemporary point of view. And this also is a series of smaller events, international events, but also leading towards a large exhibition that should happen here in Prague in the City Library in the gallery of of the city of Prague in two years from now into 21. Okay,

Matthew Dols 4:08
that’s a lot. And that’s not all you do you do more, you’re also an independent curator and you do other I’ve seen critic, I’ve seen a series of other things because you have a rather elaborate and, and well sort of pronounced as far as like, you’ve worked at docks, you’ve worked at compa, you’ve worked in like a lot of that observe major institutions throughout Czech Republic. You have a really great resume. And so sort of, so what else are you doing now? So you do this primarily? And

Karina Kottova 4:46
yeah, I mean, this is my main job. I really do devote most of my time to this. Also my very important job is being a mother which is which I take as seriously Hello pesky society. But I do involve myself in some of her projects not that to such great extent as previously. But I am involved in small kind of project space and NGO called in a project. It is running a space in Jewish golf in Prague, which is, which always has been for about seven years, kind of non gallery space, it’s more of a process based kind of residency, we invite invite artists, curators, collectors, different theoreticians activists to inhabit this space for a period of two months. And they can pretty much do anything with it. But we would like them to really do a project, think of some kind of serious of sort of unfinished things, it can be trials for performances, they can shoot the film there, they can have gatherings, anything, but there are always couple of programs that are also open to the public, and can lay there as a field for a discussion of things that are still kind of in the raw, and we want them to be shared to be to be thought of maybe in a bit bigger circle. And this was a bit of a reaction to this kind of productivity of the art world, you are always producing more and more everything is really focused on the finished thing on the finished product on the exhibition on the outcome. Yeah, and, and also publicity in the social media, exactly, and the pictures and all of that. And we really wanted to just create some space for that what happens before or in between, or maybe it’s not even aiming to a certain concrete product is perhaps just there to be there. And so this is this is very important for me, I’m involved in this right now more from the kind of coordination or curating in terms of setting up the program. But there are my colleagues who take care of this space really much more than me, but but it’s still running in this in this direction that I quite enjoy.

Matthew Dols 7:18
One thing that I’m focused on with this podcast is trying to find out how people can make in the creative industries can make better livings basically can be more, I use the word successful, but it’s a very open term. It doesn’t mean financially or necessarily esteemed or professionals success, but just general success for whatever anybody’s definition is. So and I saw an article with you, where you were talking about how the artists in the Czech Republic are paid, low wage to exhibit and how that should be increased. I have to admit, I’m from America, the idea that artists are paid to exhibit is foreign already. That doesn’t happen, why artists are often sort of honored just to even be part of the exhibition. But So tell me a little bit about that whole thing, like So there seems to be a fee that is offered to artists to participate in exhibitions and group shows and things here. And it’s not enough.

Karina Kottova 8:20
Yeah, I mean, we are trying to for a couple of years to really open up this this discussion and have artists, if they participate in a show in a big institution to have them kind of adequately paid for this, if if it’s a small NGO, of course, this might be a little bit more symbolic. But even eating someone 50 euros or 100 euros is kind of saying that, okay, this is not a lot. But we can you know, we really appreciate what you’re doing. And and given our budgets or given our possibilities, we can do this much well, but then

Matthew Dols 8:54
even it just covers the cost of transporting the art and the time of just packing up the art sending us shipping it or putting in the car and driving it over there, whatever.

Karina Kottova 9:03
And of course, I mean, the artist creates the work. And that’s the absolutely unpaid job. And

Matthew Dols 9:09
until it sells, theoretically,

Karina Kottova 9:12
yes. But then I think this is exactly the argument that I have nothing against the art market, it’s very important, but it can, it’s also limiting. There are some artists who I will do not want to be part of it or would like to be but they simply create work that is just not suitable for the for the market. And then so this is not an option for them to survive. And I believe that art shouldn’t be just graded from the from the market value. It’s kind of a world in itself. And it’s great if it works and if it kind of supports the arts in its own way. It’s also of course, it can be also kind of exploiting or misleading and in many other ways. Yeah, because I mean, you you might sort of push artists to do a certain work that will sell it’s not you know, it’s nothing Is without,

Matthew Dols 10:02
there’s an old joke in the US about like, if you do something really well, now you have to do it in the colors that match the sofa and the drapes. Exactly. So more of them.

Karina Kottova 10:10
So yeah, so I think it’s, you know, it’s absolutely legitimate that the market is there. But it shouldn’t be the only source of financing art and artists work. And ideally, yeah, the institutions and the bigger they are, the more responsible, I think they should be for really appreciating the artists work, not only in terms of giving exactly this kind of honor to show but also come up with the term honorarium. Yes, exactly. And actually, you were mentioning the US. But there is a very important movement, which is called the wage it’s, it’s been around for, I don’t know, actually a few years, I would say, and, and it ranks all in all public institutions, or even some private ones. Depending on their budgets, there is a kind of chart or table, and then you can check how much is their annual budget, and have a kind of suggestion of how much given that you should pay artists for a solo show how much you should pay them for participating in a group show or giving a lecture and so on. And so the bigger the institution, of course, the higher the fees, but the smallest ones, are the fees should be, for instance, for a solid show around $5,000. Yeah, for the smallest institution, which is, of course, I mean, if you think about it, this is not even a money that you would survive on for, I don’t know, two months or a month in some bigger city in the US and

Matthew Dols 11:45
New York, that’s not going to cut it.

Karina Kottova 11:47
Yeah, exactly. And, of course, the artist will spend much more than a month on this. So you know, in some kind of international terms, this sounds like, Wow, that’s a lot of money. But if you imagine the kind of, you know, the process, the artists often works for a year on an exhibition, and then it’s all this, all the artwork, but also all the management around it. So actually, this is really symbolic, this this kind of fee. And then if they get so high that they show in a big public Museum, they really should get a very good fee for that, I would say. And we have a kind of similar strategy going on here that is also around for a couple of years. It’s called the zero wage. And it was an initiative from artists and curators to push institutions in in case they would not be willing to pay them a fee, which also often happens to independent curators that they do their job for an institution and they shouldn’t be honored.

Matthew Dols 12:45
Independent curators don’t get paid.

Karina Kottova 12:48
Now, mostly as a couple of years ago, no,

Matthew Dols 12:52
was it? Okay, a little backed back on that, my understanding of independent curator is that some reasonably new thing, like I mean, when I was growing up, uh, curators worked for institutions, or galleries or whatever, but they worked for a company or an organization. And they weren’t such things as independent curators pay a lot. Maybe there were in New York and Paris and London, whatever. But But it wasn’t a common thing. It seems like that’s a newer thing, this idea of an ambiguous so like 20 years, I’d say it’s sort of growing, and it’s getting better and more prominent and more impactful and better paid.

Karina Kottova 13:34
Yes, definitely. But it’s still I think, for most people who call themselves independent curators, it is almost impossible to survive on this. They might be teaching, they might be doing other things that are their day jobs, and then working on projects. But similarly to the artists usually, if if there even is a fee, which usually now there is but it’s really not, it hasn’t been that common for

Matthew Dols 14:02
sure. It’s not enough to

Karina Kottova 14:03
make a gesture. And sometimes the fee is not bad, but still you how you would have to count. I mean, if it’s, you know, if I was under 2000 euros, but again, it’s a project that you’ve been working on for for a couple of months, then you have to think how many projects like that would you have to have in a year to make a living? And that’s, yeah, that sounds almost impossible. So I mean, of course, there are a few of these kinds of star curators that have incredible fees. And there are of course, artists that have incredible fear the fees that live in a completely different world, I would say then the most of them aren’t producers do

Matthew Dols 14:47
well, and that’s what I’m hoping to get some insight into how If so, let’s say a curator, a young curator is listening to this podcast. It’s so how can they put themselves out there We’re on the right path to become more successful. As far as like getting to a position like the one you’re in right now. I mean, this is looks like a pretty decent, salaried position. That’s it. And you have a nice, lots of programs going on internationally, like you’ve got a lot of things going on. So like, how can a young curator sort of put themselves in the right path to grow and get better?

Karina Kottova 15:28
Well, I mean, in my case, it was really you coming from the, you know, I came in a time where there really was no kind of not had many opportunities, and not that many fees also. So I really did have to do a lot for a long time ever, for free or almost for free. I mean, I did have a museum job, as you mentioned in the beginning Computer Museum, which paid perhaps 90% of my rent back then. And so I had to do everything’s next to this. And a lot of the so called independent curating was really kind of an investment from my side that I just did it, because I enjoyed it. And I seems like

Matthew Dols 16:09
there’s a lot of this feels like a European thing, a guy. I mean, I’ve lived in the Middle East in the United States. There seems to be this sort of idea of the starving artist. And and I’m personally a little tired of it. You never hear about starving bankers. You never hear about starving lawyers. Why does the starving artists still exist?

Karina Kottova 16:29
Yeah, it is. It’s a pity. And I mean, I think it really is a bit different. Now, if you’re a young curator, you can really I mean, you have to also really after all these devices, you have to know a little bit more of your value and also ask for things, ask for better fees, just refuse to work for free, you know, really matter. And when I was starting 10 years ago, it was absolutely normal people would not even ask you, is it okay for you that we are not going to pay you or so they just wouldn’t think about it. Now, the debate is really elsewhere. So I’m glad about that. But I mean, it’s, you know, it’s the whole system. It’s also that I mean, you’re young curator, us, you already have done something, you value your work, but then at the same time, you just cannot claim certain amounts of money from institutions that you also know, they they don’t even have the funds for this. So it’s a very complex question. I mean, in my job right now, I’m really happy about it. It’s an amazing job. But I think if I would work quite seriously, as a tram driver, I might earn a little bit. salary. So I’m

Matthew Dols 17:35
way more fun than tram driver,

Karina Kottova 17:36
it is way much more fun. And that’s what everyone counts with that you’re gonna do it for this kind of money. But if I would be somewhere in a firm or even in some kind of creative industries, I’m sure it could be triple the amount that they that they can earn in this job. So it says so I’m not sure if I can really talk about success stories. But on the other hand, I must say it’s also an this is something that we are really focusing on right now. It’s also changing of the kind of institutional logic that we have with my team tripled the budget of the institution in the five years that I’m here, because also we added our programs and so on. So that but that but we did not think about tripling our own salaries and there is this this is really common in the art world because as you were mentioning there is this whole logic that has been there forever about all you should be honored to do this. And it’s fun, isn’t it? The fun kind of pays for your bills and no,

Matthew Dols 18:38
it is it is depressing it is it makes you neurotic and self conscious and and creates low self esteem, the constant knows and rejections and low pay and the low standards of me even if I got to do a business trip, let’s say for whatever like it like some gallery wanted me and I still have to go on the cheapest possible way I have to take a bus I have to stay in the cheapest of hotels or Airbnb is like, there is nothing glamorous about the arts lifestyle, other than the leisure quality to it,

Karina Kottova 19:13
and some of the parties that

Matthew Dols 19:19
are great. I mean, there’s no knock on the people but like people outside the arts think that we live this great luxurious bohemian blah, blah. And now it’s, it’s like for me, I’ve become much more self conscious and much more neurotic or whatever anxious and because I am in a new society like so I’ve only recently in the past two years have sort of prominently moved to Europe. And I’m not easily accepted here. It takes a lot I mean, anytime you move as an artist from one country to another, you have to literally start from scratch. No matter what credentials you had, they mean nothing in your new city. And you have to start again and reprove yourself. And that’s very difficult for anybody that or anybody even has to take time off. Like I’m thinking, mothers are people like, they have to take time off, and then try to come back. Like you have to just continually reprove yourself. And this is not true in other industries. And it’s annoying me.

Karina Kottova 20:30
Yeah. But I think it’s really, it’s also really important to change our own logic and our own mind sets. You know, I really, I am on this right now in the institution that I represent, to really look once again at the budgets and see, because it’s all you know, you’re always short of money in the art world, whatever budgets you have, in the end of the year, you’re always counting if this project can save 50 or 100 euros so that you can kind of come even if

Matthew Dols 21:02
the project will go, you know, what, we have tons of money, don’t need any more money.

Karina Kottova 21:06
So that But still, I think I really need to look into how much money we have, generally, and how much we pay our staff how much we pay ourselves. And we really do need to prioritize differently, you see, because I, it’s not only about my own salary, but I have a team of five people who also cannot just do this forever, for the love of art and ever. excitement around it. And, and I mean, I so we are maybe among the brag institutions, we’re definitely not the one that pays the worst, I think we are kind of on the better scales. But still, if you compare it Yeah, to to any other industry, it’s a bit of a joke. And also there is really this logic, that I mean, prices are growing and started growing and our our salaries, we don’t think about, you know, raising it every year just little bit because of

Matthew Dols 22:01
the increase.

Karina Kottova 22:03
Yeah, so. So I think we really have to also change this inner logic. And then it’s, it’s also and this is what we are trying to do also a push on, on the big institutions that do pay for us, which in our case is the Ministry of Culture is the city of Bragg. We are mostly we’re an NGO, we’re mostly surviving on grant support, which is also increasing, but they’re also in the logic of these big grant givers, there needs to be an economic acknowledgement that look, these people cannot do this forever, for the kind of pay that you know, they would rather like mono, many of them who didn’t escape for do a different thing or kind of get, you know, burned out tired from it. So it’s a big issue. And it really needs to be treated on many different levels. So if you’re a young curator, or artists approaching the institution, I think you should really kind of know your value and ask that and not except that you’re not being paid or that you’re not being paid adequately. But you also have to understand that the whole system kind of needs to improve and change for for this to be possible. Even

Matthew Dols 23:13
sure I’m, I’m running into the granting system a lot since I started this podcast, because I’m trying to find grants for the podcast to travel more. And don’t get me wrong. The budget for doing this is in the grand scheme of grants super low. Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen grants, three and 5 million euros and stuff me I’m talking I need like 500 euros, like I don’t need a lot of money. But the granting system is very difficult. It’s very the my I haven’t I have a big pet peeve. The granting. system is I feel like it’s a bit broken at this point. Because they are so so many grants, like there are 1000s. I mean, I spend weeks just researching grants. And in most grants that I find it’s like, you fit to like 95% of it. It’s like Yes, perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. And then they say oh, but you must be an NGO. And I’m not Ninja, or everything else like yes, yes, yes, yes. And then they say at the end like oh, and you have to be under 35. Yeah, yeah. And then let me and there are countless grants in there too. I feel like there’s so many grants that are great. And I love all the support that is available because there is massive amount of money support to support the arts available. But they’re so they’re so specific with what they will fund. They will only fund like, I just recently went to a meeting where there was this really beautiful grant and this grant was perfect for this podcast 99% of the way, but they will only grant it to organizations, associations or NGOs

Karina Kottova 24:59
right now. It might be worth creating. And then

Matthew Dols 25:04
I’ve done that before. I’m not doing another one. But, but my but my point being is, is that like these, the there’s too many strings attached to too many grants that mean, why can’t there just be grants that say, we love what you do? Here’s money?

Karina Kottova 25:21
Yeah, well, I mean, for the check organizations like us, we Yeah, we are spot like are getting a union or how you how you call it in the association Association? Yes. It’s, I must say, it’s really not terrible the kind of support we can get, if we compare it to similar organizations in Western Europe, in the US, I mean, in a way they might have some, I mean, us is completely different with more of those private sponsorship, and so on. But even I mean, in Germany or the Netherlands, there might be more resources. But of course, there are also the costs are also much different. The, the amount of institutions is very different. But even in Poland, for instance, when you look at the results of the grants from the Ministry of Culture, it’s maybe the first page out of 20 is the supported projects. And the rest is, you know, they will never reach this kind of support. And I must say, here, this is really not bad, the ministry, and if you’re in Prague, the city of Prague, or if you’re in bernardus, burner, they really do give not bad money, also to quite experimental projects, for instance, within a project, I mean, that was an NGO that I set up with two friends of mine, we had nothing, we had no money and some kind of little knowledge of what we what our expectations are kind of imaginations of what we would like to do, but really not much back then. And we ran it for a year from our own resources, which was really nothing. And yeah, but that’s, that’s really the good thing about this place that I mean, we set up certain program, and we started getting grants for it, because we’ve already shown look, we did this, someone thought it was interesting. We got a little support from some student grant in the beginning, but then quite soon, actually, we started getting support from the ministry, and we’re still getting it now. And it’s really, it’s not bad. I mean, there is a there is a person who can work kind of part time. I mean, of course, he’s a freelancer and and it’s not ideal. Yeah. But for the size of this, it’s really a small project, and someone can, you know, be there and take care of it for at least some kind of money. If I don’t, I don’t know, if it’s decent. It’s no decent in the art world terms.

Matthew Dols 27:51
In the art world terms in Prague. The cost of living in progress is lower than a lot of other places. Now, what about grant writing, I, I am the worst I, I get all emotional when I’m writing a grant, I’m like, this is my life. This is my thing. Like I get all invested in it. And there needs to be some way some I have a difficulty with writing grants, basically, let’s just walk up to that Chase. Give me some tips on writing grants, because you obviously or your organization are doing it really well. You just tripled your budget in five years. So like, so what, what are some advice for writing grants better?

Karina Kottova 28:35
Well, I try to just tried to be as honest as possible, really? I mean, because a lot of you that are not honest, and no, I was hearing. But I just think that in terms of budgets in terms of the program, and many people when they write grants, they really try to pimp it up and also say, okay, it’s gonna cost that much more because they think they’re gonna cut it to half anyway. So they say, Okay, this is

Matthew Dols 29:01
that is exactly how my American people taught me. Yeah. Over ask and under deliver as far as your budget.

Karina Kottova 29:10
Yeah, exactly. But the thing is that I mean, for some grants, it works. It’s also I mean, it really took me maybe these 10 years to get the orientation and all of this but but for for the big ones, for instance, for the ministry or the city, they really like to see your real budgets and if they’re, if they know that you’re exaggerating, which they know very well if you say that your your annual budget is 6 million crowns, but it’s gonna be actually 3 million and so they will they will kind of know that and and they will also known rate it through this so I think it’s I mean, okay, so we are trying to say that okay, this is our kind of reasonable ideal budget. It might be a little bit larger than it really will be because this is what we would like to have For instance, if we paid really adequate fees to everybody, and so on, but we really don’t exaggerate. We didn’t, you know, we don’t say a transport somewhere will cost 20,000 euros if we know it’s gonna cost 5000.

Matthew Dols 30:14
Honesty is a good start, I think that

Karina Kottova 30:15
with the money, for sure. And in the Czech grand system, for the ministry for the city, I think really is mostly the program that matters that people will read that you really need to have done something in the previous year that people follow that they kind of know about it, because the committee is full of people who that are from the art world, I’ve been also on this committee a couple of times. So I mean, of course, everybody will look at the project. If you’re, for instance, as we will be applying for the big grants for an annual project. So we will say everything that we are planning to do that year, again, we are trying to be as honest as possible, as consistent as possible. It has to all hold together, it cannot be just something super spectacular, but without, you know, much much reasoning and so on, you have to say that you are also continuing whether you do what you have done that last year, and why is it new? Why is it different, but also is it you know, in line with with what you have been so far doing. So it’s all these very kind of hard to measure criteria, I would say that that really counts the most that I still believe in the grant system here that it’s not, I think some European grants are, because it’s much more detached from the applicants, it really could be that you put a grade grant on a paper and the project is actually really bad. And you might get the money because it’s just that you write it well, and it looks well and the people you know who rated they have no idea what organization you are, and so on, it looks great in the writing on the images on your kind of goals and so on, and you might get the support, but here in the local terms, this would never happen it because people are really, you know, this is really attached people know the the outcomes that you have had in the past and that you might achieve. And then if you if they look at the program, and a small gallery will say oh, I’m inviting this huge artists from somewhere, they will probably say, oh, but they might not be able to accomplish that. And is that confirmed or not? So you know, it’s really they really know what they are doing. So So I would say she’s really saying what what do you plan to and being as good as possible in the in the programming is very important. But of course, I have been in sitting in these committees and sometimes the projects are so badly kind of put together that it’s just so hard for the committee to orient themselves in this. It. I mean, what I’ve experienced is that if there was a really badly written project, but it was, for instance, for an exhibition that everyone knew, though, this is gonna be great, and these people really know how to do it, they will still give it the money. Yeah, but but I mean, it does complicate things, because you really, as the member of the committee have to take so much more time to kind of, you know, if there are no images, if there is no not enough information, there is a link to a website, you have to access it, to find out more. And so and then of course, not everybody will take the effort to do this. So I would say put as much relevant information in the application as you can also support it with images with with some kind of quotations or rulings from the media or so this is also a very often requirement. But also try to I mean, give enough information, but also not write a 20 page essay, which I unfortunately mostly do.

Matthew Dols 33:53
Well, I’ve been noticing a lot of them have been doing limited characters and words like you know, 2500, whatever, like they really want you to be limited, which is in its own way. It’s its own difficulty as well, because sometimes trying to take a very large comprehensive project and limited to like 500 words is really hard to pitch.

Karina Kottova 34:15
Yeah, that’s the hardest sometimes. But I mean, that’s also perhaps one of the really biggest hours in this that you really managed to kind of write exactly what’s your point in not? Very large amount of words, because then of course, you know, if the committee receives 200 projects, even if you do writer 20 pages, you might be sure that nobody’s gonna read

Matthew Dols 34:40
it. It’s gonna read some big 20 page proposals. They, they want it short and sweet. and to the point. I mean, that’s one of things is like, how flowery should you get with it like, from America, when I was taught it to 30 years ago, it was Oh, be your own cheerleader. tell how great you are, you know, but you Pump yourself up, convince them that you’re worth investing in. And I’m hearing that these days, it seems to be more of the opposite. Basically. Don’t oversell yourself. Don’t act like you’re better than you actually are, literally just say, this is what I want money for, because this is the thing I want to do. Yes, funded, you know, be very sort of straightforward. I don’t want to use the word humble, because it’s not humble. But I mean, you still have to, you still have to project some confidence in the in the proposal, but but you don’t want to go that over the top that at one point was very popular.

Karina Kottova 35:35
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And also, maybe it’s a bit cultural, that I feel the committee’s here they will if they get this kind of proposal, of course, I can generalize about everybody, but maybe the ministry committee that I can imagine, if they, you know, receive a proposal, and it says how we’re going to do this. And Adam, we’ve already done that. And that’s great. And it’s gonna be amazing. They’re just gonna sit there and think, Oh, really, is it? And you know, I mean, of course, again, you can’t you can’t over generalize, but I would say, it’s, it’s really more about saying, look, we are doing this, we are good in and we have achieved this and that but in, in Moreover, and this is our reasoning behind it. I think people here are really looking at a lot at the concept at the logic, they are really looking into critical thinking about the necessity of this, why is it important? Well, how is it enriching the art scene? How is it adding something else? If it’s the ministry, they’re also looking a lot into? How is it beyond regional? Yeah, because if you’re, if you’re doing a project in a certain city, for instance, and it’s really just local, then you should maybe ask more of the local support. But if it has some kind of resonance in the whole country, or maybe even internationally, then even if it’s a small local project that can get funding from the Ministry. So they will be looking into this, of course, into the impact for the public’s who is it a drag thing if you’re making a great project? But then you have no attendance? Well, that’s the I’ve often wondered, because a lot of these bigger grants will often say like, how many people will this affect? What is the intended audience? And how many of them? What demographic breakdown?

Matthew Dols 37:25
How do you figure that stuff out? I mean, basically, it feels like this, it’s like, you have to have done the thing to know these intent that what your audiences is, in order to be able to request money to it and know what your audiences like. But what if it’s the first time you’re trying to do something? How do you come up with these kinds of data and statistics,

Karina Kottova 37:49
then I guess, if you’re, if it’s the first time, you have to consult someone who did something similar, but I mean, in our case, of course, it’s the way that we know, we count all the visitors of all exhibitions that we do for us, it’s a bit more difficult, because we don’t have one space, if it’s one gallery, you can just have someone who can serve visitors. And that’s it, or you can take it that you sell, but we work everywhere we work in the Czech Republic, we work internationally. So we always have to ask the partner institution to give us the amount of people who came there. But then there are also you know, online things, but we really tried to track everything. How many people watch the days? Well, how many people came here? If there is no sometimes you know, you’re doing a lecture, you’re not selling any tickets. So there has to be someone just writing now. Okay, there were 50 people coming to this lecture, and we tried to drag it throughout the year, then we come to some kind of a sum for us, because

Matthew Dols 38:47
I’ve seen grants that have even asked like gender splits, male, female, age, demographics, you know, children, elderly, you know, whatever. Like, I mean, some of them can get, like, really specific, yeah.

Karina Kottova 39:02
But then you really, really have to estimate upon your previous experience, and also your expectations. And I mean, this is, this is the hard thing. You’re always working with your expectations for budgets also for these kind of figures. And then I mean, you can say, Okay, I expect 5000 people to come to this exhibition, but also it might be that only 3000 come in. And when you’re doing the grand evaluation, you will have to say this, but I mean, I never experienced the grand that would cut your support because of that, but, but of course, it’s something that, again, you should try to be as reasonable as possible. And this is also one of the things where I think the honesty is quite good, because if you’re gonna say always expect that and 1000 people to come to my small projects based Of course, the committee will say, well, that’s impossible. You will get your space only for 200 Yeah, exactly. Just that more generally voted. Oh, wording I would completely agree with that it’s a very problematic kind of a project that are awarding the IRS. I mean, it’s okay to award but the wording also involves a lot of competition. And then how do you measure? Which artwork is better? We’re

Matthew Dols 40:18
so subjective. Okay, well, let’s, well, let’s take it back a step. So your award just to inform the public because not everybody has a lot of research on your award awards young artists under the age of 35. Working in the Czech Republic or living in the Czech Republic, or from Czech Republic, they could be living elsewhere. But beef jack, yes. Okay. What materials what, what mediums like is, are there any sort of limitations on it,

Karina Kottova 40:47
there are no limitations, except for the age that we’ve been also discussing many times whether it should or shouldn’t be there, but it has been there for 30 years since the existence, I’m 40. So

Matthew Dols 40:58
I encourage you to raise that number.

Karina Kottova 41:02
But otherwise, we really try to have it as open and as kind of inclusive as possible, you can be really, you have to be the visual artists. But that can mean that you’re working with certain kind of research that you’re a classical painter, that you’re someone absolutely experimenting on the edge of activism or theater or you know it, you have to kind of consider yourself still acting upon the visual or artworld. But otherwise, it’s very open, avoid your practices. Okay,

Matthew Dols 41:36
so then it comes down to a question I always have, because like, I have known I’ve been on the job during end of this as well. So like, how do you compare and judge the criteria of quality? versus are basically the winners of the awards and people who don’t win the awards? What are some of the debates that go on in the back room when you’re looking at them going? This is good. Are you looking at the actual work that’s being submitted? Or are you looking at the potential future work? or whatever other criteria comes up? Yeah. So

Karina Kottova 42:10
I mean, of course, it’s extremely difficult to our processes that we have an open call, anyone can apply for it. We also have a system of so called nominators, people who are curators, teachers at different academics, people from different regions, and so on, who kind of encourage artists to apply, they still have to apply to the open call, but someone might tell them, Look, I appreciated your work, maybe go for it. That helps us also get maybe more diversity of the artists and artworks. And then we have an independent jury that I mean, we do a point, but we do not as our team, none of us are bored, or anybody doesn’t take any part in the decision process. So the jury members are appointed for three years, there are always partly international and partly check. This is very important for us that there is someone who really knows the scene, who knows old artist knows all the gossip is there really to I mean, of course, they will not know everybody but they will be aware of what’s really going on in the scene. And then there are people who are very important representatives of international institutions that have this kind of outside perspective of what’s going on in their respective places or more generally, in the in the international scene. And there is a discussion among these right now is five people free internationals, two checks, and they out of this pool of applications, which is usually around 80 100 artists that really do quiet cover what is the kind of young scene in the Czech Republic and they say, like five to be in the shortlist or the kind of nominees. And I mean, this is very important already this this step that you are among these five because then that means that part of the award is creating newly commissioned work for an exhibition, which happens over in the National Gallery in Prague or Moravian gallery in Brno in switching every year and you really get a whole year support from our team curatorial financial productions. So you really meant you get a lot of media attention. There is quite a lot of things going

Matthew Dols 44:27
on. Yes, I know the media attention yes

Karina Kottova 44:30
to this year. So this is the most important thing for us and I mean, the selection for this shortlist is, of course all kinds of criteria the jury is looking into Okay, what is going on in the scene what voice all’s really stands out out of these applications? If you have these 100 things there some things also might start a little bit repeating or you know, there might be certain trends, certain tendencies, then you also look into Okay, Out of this trend, word, what is really the more genuine or the more kind of different or more edgy or? And this is, of course, after every jury to select their own criteria, but they and then I mean, usually they get to a shortlist of maybe 1520 people and out of the out of there they will they already have 20 really great artists or 15 really great artists. And they will definitely also be trying to then aim for some kind of diversity if they will not sell like five painters out of these 20 for the shortlist. Because it would be a little bit too one sided. So they will go for different media different approaches so that the shortlist really, of course is never representative is what is going on in the scene. But at least it covers really different kind of voices of what is what is going on in in contemporary art. So that how that is made. And then the process is that all of these artists create a new work for the for the exhibition. And the jury meets again in the exhibition. And the winner is chosen, more, more based on the new work because they were already chosen upon their previous works from their portfolio towards the shortlist. And then whatever they did in that year will quite highly influence what who will finally received the main award. For me personally, this last part is very problematic. I feel it’s very difficult to judge among four, five new works, which usually are very different, each has their own thing. Most of them all of them are very interesting, very promising. And for the jury, of course, it’s also not easy. And they have to think about kind of the criteria. Again, it’s not about what is the best artwork, that’s impossible. So they have to think also, what are the politics of the award? What are the politics of the art world, there are different topics that are being discussed last year’s winner of the of the cholesky Award was there with a very politically engaged project that was questioning the relationship of the Czech Prime Minister towards the domain media that he actually has certain ownership in. And it was a certain gesture to support this kind of project because you know that you gave it much more visibility. And the discussion can kind of go on and so on. So there are many, many more things that get involved in this except for who’s the who’s the best artist, to be honest with you. I’m very much contemplating throughout the whole five years that I’ve been in this institution, but now maybe even more, whatever this last part is really necessary because it’s not that difficult to choose the five artists for the shortlist. And they you know, they get chosen from a large pool, they get the support and so on. But then they very often are from one thing they might know each other, it’s it gets very personal and very kind of problematic or difficult for them that someone will you know, they will be judged, like in school in a way or in the academy and someone will be

Matthew Dols 48:21
nodding away. That’s actually how it works oftentimes,

Karina Kottova 48:24
yes, that’s right. But wondering, you know, there, you might have heard of what happened in the last journal prize, which is, which is the biggest British or UK award for artists and it’s maybe one of the most kind of internationally recognized and the shortlisted artists as the jury that they didn’t want to have any winner we chosen out of them because they were all working on very kind of socially engaged projects on projects that were very sensitive towards what is going on around us how we can address it and so on. They just didn’t want the jury to be selecting How can you possibly say if a project is dealing with I don’t know anxiety, and then another one is dealing with rape culture and another one is doing with this and that so how do you say okay, that one is better? And then and this is a general kind of turn I would say in the in the art world that because there is a lot going on around us politically, environmentally, and so on. So there is there is really a tendency to also question these kind of mechanisms of, of judging or selecting because that’s exactly what

Matthew Dols 49:42
I’m trying to get to is sort of like so. How do these conversations go on of like, best? Yeah, I mean, because this translates everywhere because this translates to art fairs including art, which artists do. They include the gallery When they choose artists represented not represent, like, what are some of the criterias that you brought up some already, which are things like having a strong cause having a strong voice, having a an authentic sort of perspective, things like this, like, these are all very important things. I do portfolio reviews online every day. And every day, like I’m constantly having to tell people, while you make beautiful whatever, like visually, aesthetically, it’s stunning. It has no reason, like there has to be an emotional gravatar some sort of thing that grabs the attention and the heartstrings to make me not only appreciate the aesthetics, whether it’s beautiful or not beautiful, doesn’t matter aesthetics is, but that it means something to the viewer, like it’s it has to. And it doesn’t have to be some deep, profound thing. It doesn’t have to be global change, rape, culture, whatever. It can be intimate and personal, but it has to have that extra thing. But then beyond that, how do you compare those? And say, this one is better or more more worthy than this other one?

Karina Kottova 51:12
Yeah, of course. I mean, it’s extremely difficult to compare. But on the other hand, if you working in the art world, you have to compare all the time, not only in awards, because if you’re a curator, you’re selecting work for an exhibition, you have to think, okay, who am I inviting? Who am I not inviting? So there, this is part of it. And I guess, it always has to be or will be, but I really am a lot in my thinking, and maybe it’s not going anywhere, but I am trying to really think or rethink how you can sort of minimize this. This necessity of Yeah, claiming the best or, you know, thinking about, okay, everything is it’s a very kind of patriarchal structure now to say, okay, we always have to go for the big results, and for the best side, and so on. And I really would like to appreciate more. Also, the different little things that are going on the Nancy’s the general, I think the biggest thing is the general presence of artists in the society, wherever they just do some kind of thing at home, and they show it in their local cafe. And it’s not so Wow, great original to be shown in museums. But I think it’s very important because it’s important for a certain group of people for a certain communities important for the artists themselves for a way of thinking that goes kind of beyond the regular structures. And I really believe in this. And of course, you know, I might then not be the one to ask these artists to show up in the big museum. But still, I think it’s super important that they are there, and they are doing their work. And I just, I’m thinking of mechanisms that would acknowledge this, this kind of work more in more general terms. And then of course, the awards are a bit contradictory to this. But in the color pesky award, for instance, we did really try to kind of change the mechanism of it, when I came here, it was really done. I mean, kind of as objectively as possible, okay, you get certain kind of money, we don’t want to know what you’re working on just you have the space, you have some money, which was quite little money back then. And now it’s still maybe it fail again, not enough, but better. And that there you just go, go, go show what you’ve got. Yeah. And we decided that, okay, this is not the way we would like to do it. If we already have this selection of the five artists, it was quite an achievement for the for them to get there. Let’s think how we can really support what they’re doing as much as we can, how we can guide them through this year, how we can, you know, help them with achieving the results on the if they if they want to make something crazy, they want to do some glass sculptures that nobody knows the technique of how can we get them people that will help them to do that, but also on the conceptual terms we discuss with them? What are your aims? How you want to do that? Did you read that book, it might be interesting for you and someone you know, and really kind of be there with them for the for the production. And then I think also the results are a bit different than if you just say, Okay, here’s your money and space and do do something.

Matthew Dols 54:42
Well, that brings up something that always sort of weighs on my mind is the balancing act of the aesthetics versus the concept. You know, I’ve always been taught and I’ve always expressed and I’ve always taught that it was basically it’s supposed to be a balance is 5050 more or less kind of thing. I feel like having seen a lot of things the recently and things like this, that I feel like it’s getting a little bit stronger towards concept and less towards aesthetics currently, like sort of, I’m getting to contemporary work, like, I feel like the things like the artist statements and the concept behind them are becoming, you know, maybe 6040, like towards the the concept and the statements. So I’m feeling like the statements are becoming more important, a little bit more dramatic, because there still has to be aesthetically pleasing work, you still have to be engaged in whatever, I get all that but the statements and the texts that accompanies It feels like it’s becoming more important than it was in the past.

Karina Kottova 55:46
Yeah, I think it’s definitely more important to, for artists to be able to say something or write something about their work that brings us here, again, you know, these things that are arriving maybe a little bit slower than in the US, this has been around for much longer, I would say longer than here for for sure. I mean, but then, considering aesthetics, there’s also always a wave, they’re also hearing the kind of, yeah, 1015 years ago that it was really this time of the kind of Neil conceptualism when you had words that were quite kind of rigid in terms of aesthetics. And they were very conceptual, they were very much not necessarily just about texture artist statement, but really about the research that is behind and the kind of point they were trying to make. And they were that’s a much less aesthetic, of course, everything is aesthetic in their in their own way, but much less maybe spectacular or crafty or so it was the kind of big wave that influence also a lot of young artists that are working now but in the recent years, there is this friend colleague of mine, Mikhail Novotny called it the romantic turn, which I’m sure is is there that there is this kind of turn towards the mysteries fairytales, you know, kind of things like that. But also, there is really a big turn towards crafts, lots of artists really experiment in very new and interesting and contemporary ways, but also very often with traditional crafts and materials and so on. So I would say that the art that is going on now, a lot of it is really you know, people often also say about the world, but also other things that are generally in contemporary, always all video wide. And it’s all conceptual, and we don’t understand it. I wouldn’t say that strafing it’s extremely static, and there is a lot going on, on that. lines. And also in I don’t know, in painting and you know, people also complain that the traditional media are disappearing. I would disagree with that. I think there are really a lot of artists working very interestingly, with more traditional media, although the media question might be a bit ageing, because everybody is intermediate right now and working kind of with different strategies. But then I but definitely the kind of statement that you’re even asked to do it that you’re asked to write something about your work? That is a bit new. I mean, in Yeah, like, maybe 10 years ago, or even five years ago in the Academy of Fine Arts when you were studying, no one would ask you, right, and that’s what I’m getting to know. Yeah, Yeah,

Matthew Dols 58:39
I do. I haven’t experienced I remember being an undergrad. So there’s we’re talking since 1990 1990. I applied for a grant. So this wasn’t like an exhibition, but I applied for grabs. And they said, you know, write one page about your artwork, and I was arrogant little kid. And I said, if I wanted to write about my work, I would have been a writer. Obviously, I did not get that grant. But these is the most artists go into the artistic the visual artistic field because they don’t know how to express themselves in writing or even in talking like on this podcast, but so it makes it difficult that like we we go out of our way to sort of express ourselves visually in our art, but then we’re also expected to basically master another art form, which is writing about our art. So my question then leads to how do you feel about artists having writers help them or write them for them? So like a curator or a writer, basically write their statements or anything like that? Is that okay? Is that legitimate?

Karina Kottova 59:49
I think if they use that they should also say who wrote it, it’s quite important. If they if someone wrote nicely about their work and they want to use it, they should You’d say, Okay, this was written by this and that curator and I think that’s perfectly fine. I also I’m me, as a curator, I do like if artists can also write something on their own, because I, I can just, you know, I don’t might be I know that, that is not their kind of biggest rent to ride, as it is not my biggest strength to a great artwork.

Matthew Dols 1:00:25
Writer, so

Karina Kottova 1:00:26
I understand it from the other side. But still, sometimes, you know, I will read everything because I can write about an artist so. So if I read it, and I am, I think curators are quite often the public for these tanks, then I really want to, you know, I can imagine what my friend curator does, and that would write about that artists because I might write something similar or so. But sometimes if the artists write it themselves, it might sound a little bit more rapport or so but I will find out something new, you know, something that is Yeah, again, maybe more honest, or some kind of edge or inspiration to the work that I wouldn’t think about because it’s something from where they live, or some kind of literature experience of some weird comics book that they have read in the 90s, or, you know, whatever, but, but it is, it is interesting for me, so I wouldn’t say that the form is the main part here. And it sometimes it happens that they you can sense that the artists didn’t write this, but they there is no acknowledgement who wrote it. So I would say again, just ever really write your own thing, and claim that as your tags, and maybe it doesn’t have to have the best kind of stylistic aspects, but it can be really about where you’re coming from, what you’re aiming for, what are your, you know, contacts and so on. And it’s very interesting, or have someone righted, but then then really do acknowledge them? All right,

Matthew Dols 1:01:59
I’m gonna get like super finite now with you. Because you have experience with this. I mean, you read a lot of artists statements as well, because you have all these people submitting to you and all this kind of stuff. When you’re reading an artist statement, should there be should? Do you? Do you react better to statements that say, I make this I do this, I do that or the work is meant to express this thing? So is that basically is the question of the I statements or nano statements? Which do you find more compelling to you?

Karina Kottova 1:02:33
Yeah, I think if the artists write it, I prefer if it’s in the if form if someone else writes it, because it’s also maybe it’s the kind of distinguishing line between, if, you know, if you generalize, I think it should be someone else saying that your work is like this, and that, you know, it should be someone who sees it from an outside perspective. But whereas if you write it by yourself, you say, Well, I do this, because I feel like that, and because I research that and I am absolutely fine with it. If it’s in this form, I really look more for this kind of, yeah, more personal information that I wouldn’t find or wouldn’t see in the work by myself through also the perspective of seeing similar work elsewhere. Internationally, I can you know, I can see influences I can kind of get what is going on there, hopefully, but, but there are things that I will never know. And I would like to find them in the state. Yeah, I

Matthew Dols 1:03:28
try. I try. When I do my reviews for other people, I read their statements, I often try to express like, for me, and then again, like so this is my own perspective, is that I feel like the best statements are when I feel like I’ve gotten insight into the mind of the artist. Yeah, like that was a whatever that means, however, that manifests like, basically something that I simply cannot achieve by looking at the work alone. But something that will elevate the whole experience and and in, in your engagement with the works. That would be unattainable in the work.

Karina Kottova 1:04:03
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:04:03
Like, that’s what I feel like I’m looking for is that so the question is like, you’re a professional at this. So like, is this what you’re looking for?

Karina Kottova 1:04:11
Yeah, definitely. And also, I mean, it also really differs. You know, there are artists that are extremely intuitive, and they really have a problem with writing about their work. And I’m, I’m absolutely fine with if they write you know, I grew up in a village and I went to wood glassmaking school and that influence a lot. The way I’m dealing with sculpture right now. And this is perfectly fine as an information for me. And then there are artists that are actually extremely kind of, yeah, they’re either intellectual or in the I mean, of course, the interior dividers are also intellectual. I wouldn’t want to distinguish it that way. But the but they are good in writing and they will write about Bo, what is their relationship to the postcolonial theory. I’m also So fine with that. I mean, if they it’s great if they righted kind of, again with genuine and not just in these kind of cool words

Matthew Dols 1:05:09
is a point where like being intellectually expressive and sort of almost to the point of pompous is off putting?

Karina Kottova 1:05:18
Yeah, there is.

Matthew Dols 1:05:19
I like to know that the people have done research and they’ve thought and they’ve been influenced, you know, so like, you, you know that they have a well rounded base have a solid foundation of why they have produced this work. But there is a line where it easily can go over and sound just pompous. Like, I mean, I’ve read way too many things that say like, oh, Freud, he and this Conti, in that philosophy and, and, and like, when I was in school, they used to tell us to put up put a Latin phrase in into your statement, because it makes you sound more intellectual. It’s It’s so pompous that it’s just like, come on.

Karina Kottova 1:05:57
Yeah, I agree. And also, it’s like, there happened to be certain keywords that might also be named, that everyone is quoting. And but I must say, yeah, this really can very easily go towards a or, yeah, that is just not beneficial. Because then someone who has been in the art world and has read has read a few of these things, will say, okay, you again, are interested in delis Are you again, quote, hit a sterile Are you again are doing and then you’re different. So it’s, yeah, this kind of empty reusing of phrases. Anyone who is a little bit in there and has, you know, read a few of these things, or been around in this context will see that very quickly. So it’s really not worth it.

Matthew Dols 1:06:52
Okay, so be unique in those like, be inspired by maybe not the biggest names smaller,

Karina Kottova 1:07:00
I think it’s much better to say that you like the way your grandma was talking about how she worked in a certain shop. And you really wanted to Victor that I think that’s very interesting piece of information. It’s

Matthew Dols 1:07:11
much more interesting than saying you’re inspired by Andy Warhol.

Karina Kottova 1:07:14
Yeah, that’s for sure. All right.

Matthew Dols 1:07:18
So let’s get to our last question, which I’m sure you know, because I asked your husband the same question. So the question is, how can an artist or Yeah, let’s go back to this day with artists, that how can an artist sort of put themselves on the right career path to potentially be able to get their work on exhibition in the Museum of Modern Art in New York,

Karina Kottova 1:07:39
that’s difficult, there’s definitely not one way towards that.

Matthew Dols 1:07:44
But the idea is, they The idea is, if there’s an artist out there who’s listening to this, which I’m sure there are, I hope there are that that is sitting in their studio, or the garage or their kitchen table, and they’re making something and they and they know that the goal that they want is to be able to show in some major institution. So it could be Tate Modern, it could be any other major institution. The question is like, what what kinds of things are sort of generally the right direction to to put their career in that way,

Karina Kottova 1:08:17
I think it’s hard to have that as a goal, because you might end up there much more easier, if that wasn’t your goal, to be honest. But generally, I think it’s really great if it is first really involved in wherever they are from. And third, with community, then usually every city, every village almost will have a certain infrastructure for art is I think you cannot skip that you really have to think was the young artist gallery around that you also did you also appreciate the doom like the program of humor, they might have an open call, you can submit your work there, you can try to get involved in the local structures. And of course, artists and curators are supportive of each other. And many of these relationships might already happen in the academic in the university that you find someone who might be the first person who writes about your work and so on. And maybe that person will one day be the curator of MoMA and then your path towards there will be much more easier because you’ve been kind of following each other. I guess this is a bit of a romantic idea also, but I do like it and

Matthew Dols 1:09:36
it was beautiful.

Karina Kottova 1:09:39
But I mean, you know, I’m not a curator of MoMA, but there are artists that I have that I have really been exhibiting with in these horrible sellers bases that do not even exist anymore and and we still do follow each other now and I’m really grateful for this. Of course, there are new artists that I work with but but I Have a certain kind of, yeah, tribe, maybe of people that they really started working with. And, and it’s great to see that they’ve grown somewhere and I’ve grown somewhere and we can still kind of support each other and follow each other. And now it’s on a little bit different level than it was 10 years ago. So. So I think it’s nice to make these kind of companionships. But again, that they should be genuine, it should me just show me the first curator who’s around, and I’m gonna try to stick to them. Yeah, and I think it’s, it sounds, again, very naive, but you really have to focus on what you have to say, how you say it, ideally, be quite aware of what was going on in your regional in your local context, but also internationally, go see as much exhibitions as you can read as much as you can, you know, of course, not to completely overwhelm yourself and feel there is nothing to add to this world. I think there is always something to add and something that you can do from your own personal perspective, and it might even look like something that someone else has done or will do. But it doesn’t really matter if it’s really coming from what you have to say. And and so I would just just focus on that. And of course, I mean, you cannot just focus in your garage, because then it I mean, it will stay focused there most probably you have to get it out there. But that’s that’s

Matthew Dols 1:11:35
the thing that I find a lot of artists have difficulties with myself included. So that is the the public relations, basically the marketing, the getting out and doing the running of the business of the arts like that, is that like most of us that are in the arts got into it to not be part of that. And then we found out after we got into it that No, no, not only do we have to get into it, but we have to be we have to be so good at being a business that we can be successful. With no training, even though we’ve been training to beat we’ve been trained to be creative, and think outside the box and do all these alternative ideas and, and work with all these crazy mediums that have nothing to do with paying taxes and keeping up with paperwork and marketing and publicity and social media and all these things that we have not been trained in because we were trained in being creative. And now we have to do these things. Yeah.

Karina Kottova 1:12:33
Yeah, I know. But it’s also I think it’s very, of course, it’s difficult. And it’s important to do those things. You have to be a bit of your own manager if you’re an artist. But at the same time, I think you shouldn’t overdo it. I was in New York once in someone’s lecture, which was called how I got myself to the Whitney vnla. And it was the worst lecture I ever experienced, I must say, and I felt Okay, if that’s the way then I don’t know if people really want to get to the Whitney vnl it was just a load how many posts on Facebook should you do a day and what should you ride there and so on, but it doesn’t work that I mean, maybe it worked for him. But this is really not the advice I would get to anybody. Because I think most people who do their job genuinely will just be super annoyed by this. So if you’re a also like I had, there are artists that are really pushy, and I really hated. I mean, if there are people asking me in a party free in the morning, if I said like did them from an open goal, or if they are sending me emails every week about the new work that they have done, or if I see their Facebook profile everyday pumping on me that they did this and that Oh, and thank you, our viewer or for publishing my work on your blog and so on. It’s just too much. It’s not it’s contrast. I’m a fan effective at that point. So I think it’s okay you you have to kind of find the middle line I mean, it’s something in between this and sitting in the garage I mean, you cannot just say nothing if if there is if something happened we had an exhibition it’s good to share it it’s also the way for me to get information and in I must say I do get a lot of information from mailing lists from Facebook someone’s share pictures and I didn’t see that show. Um, so I’m glad that I at least saw that but it cannot just get too much because then you even if the artists might be good and all of that you just kind of stopped believing in it because you feel like okay, this is really just attacking me so much

Matthew Dols 1:14:40
more of a marketing Blitz than it is actual arts kind of thing.

Karina Kottova 1:14:44
Yeah. So so I think you really need to find some kind of balance between this and then I would really like over stress the kind of relationships aspects because the kind of self promotion for it. Even if you do it that you rewrite, read as many textbooks and there are a few hundreds, as you as you can, and you do everything right, it might just not take you there. So I always do trust more when there is someone who really genuinely gets interested in your work, and they want to help you. And there are people like this. So, so I think it’s really, I mean, no, I mean, for meeting them, it’s also good to be out there, right? You’re out there in the school, you go to openings, you go to events, you follow things, you talk to people, and then you might bump into someone who’s like, okay, I really love what you’re doing. And I would like to help you get an exhibition, or maybe I write about it, and you might and then that’s, and then people who will see that Oh, is this person wrote about that artist. So that’s interesting. And I also like the work and I would also like to show it in my gallery, I think this is really better, where none of us are kind of self standing there. And there is a whole infrastructure, and I think it’s best to try to use it.

Matthew Dols 1:16:08
Yeah, I’m just sort of overwhelmed. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s difficult, because if you if you look at any other business in the in the world, there are sort of like a b2c kind of result things. Whereas in the creative fields, there is no A to B to C that is consistent, then A to B to C might work for one company, or one artist or one organization, but it doesn’t work for another. And it makes it really difficult, which, you know, I’ve lived I’ve read these books, the not not the how tos and stuff. But to me, I’ve read books about like, how to be an artist, and all this kind of stuff. And I’ve listened other podcasts and stuff. And this is part of why I made this podcast, because the bottom line is is like when I listen to these other people talk about it, they believe they have the answer, and I don’t believe there is the answer. There are many answers and many variables. And so the idea for the podcast here is that I talked to as many people as I possibly can, because like, for instance, this whole conversation, if any listener gets one thing from this, then that’s great. And then at the next podcast, we’ll hear one thing, and then next month, we’ll hear one thing, and they will put together for their career. Yeah, what will work for them from the series of different experiences and knowledge that different people have? Because I believe that no one person in the arts has the perfect answer for anybody else. By through sort of groupthink, basically sort of the, you know, through the sheer volume of input, they the we all can sort of create our own little models, but you need more than one. Because like one person one group, one organization does not have the answer.

Karina Kottova 1:17:55
Exactly.

Matthew Dols 1:17:57
And that’s my hope. That’s, that’s what I you know, like, I have learned so much through doing this podcast, like, when I landed in Europe, I had no idea how it worked here in Europe, and I have a pretty decent idea of how it works here now, but I never would have known it had I not done this podcast. Thank you. The amount of knowledge that everybody has shared with me, is phenomenal. It’s

Karina Kottova 1:18:22
great that you do it. You know, I just thought of one story that could be an example of a friend of mine, anahola Java, she’s a, I would say right now out of the young artists. She’s really out there she was written in about in new york times she exhibited in some of the biggest institutions globally, and so on. She’s an artist that almost didn’t make it through the Academy of Fine Arts. Her professors were really doubting whether it is so naive of what is she doing with or if it’s intentional, or what is it actually, I think the first people who really helped her and that’s also important to say were her peer artists, there was an artist who created a small show somewhere in a small gallery and he invited her and that’s how at least some people saw these things. Also, there were some people also including myself, who go to these rounds at the academy and saw the work and to be honest I also in the beginning I thought okay, I I kind of really like this but what is it it’s it’s so different than then things that you know, are really exhibited now and are kind of trendy and so on right now. It’s that was like 10 years ago right now is maybe like one of the most trendy things that you can you can see out there but she kind of grew up in that and then So, yeah, at some point I invited her to meet factory to kind of a bigger group exhibition. Before that. We did one our smaller reject in meat factory. By chance on the opening, there was kacha kassner, who I think you also have been talking to one of the biggest galleries in here. Eventually she made it to the final of the Hello pecky award at that point, she already started to be represented by hand kasztner, and you know, things around it out. The word definitely also helped her in the visibility. And then yeah, then one thing leads to an ever more international curators game. And now it’s already the kind of the circle is, is moving. And I believe it will be a very fortunate career for her. And I’m extremely happy for her, but she really had to start just somewhere. And also, it’s quite a lot about being in the right time and place. I mean, that’s with the caliber Husky award, for instance, concretely, that happened quite a few times that artists like avocado, Kava, they went to residency in New York, they bagged and met kind of the right curator there, and they helped them towards this international carrier. Of course, this didn’t happen to everybody. Also, it could happen in a certain time because now these curators don’t go to these residencies anymore because there is so much more of it and so much more artists and so much more of this mobility. So also, you know, kind of success stories of different carriers, they’re also timely they there are certain moments that certain places certain institutions are the right ones to be and you never know, it’s this anchor incredibly, yo it. So I think what you can do is really just go on with what you’re doing. I mean, try to really claim at least really decent conditions for yourself, even even if you’re not famous or not famous yet that you can really do what you like, and you can be appreciated for it in a certain circle and also have some resources from it. And then yeah, and then it’s also a matter of, of course, the quality of the work and certain lag and and and importantly, I think these these kind of companionships Yeah, that can take you somewhere.

Matthew Dols 1:22:18
Yeah, in the end. The art world is all about relationships.

Karina Kottova 1:22:21
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:22:23
All right. Well, thank you very much for your time.

Karina Kottova 1:22:25
Thank you so much.

Matthew Dols 1:22:30
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The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com