Transcript for Episode 175 – Painter + Illustrator, Sigga Björg Sigurðardóttir (Iceland)

Recorded April 22, 2021
Published May 25, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/painter-illustrator-sigga-bjorg-sigurdardottir-iceland/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 0:14
Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir

Matthew Dols 0:17
Could you do that again? A little slower for me.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 0:18
Okay. Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir

Matthew Dols 0:24
I’m horrible with languages so sicker, sicker will be okay.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 0:28
Yeah, Sigga. It’s great.

Matthew Dols 0:29
Okay, great. What do you go by professionally? Do you use all three names?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 0:34
I do professionally. Yeah. It’s actually a shortening. You know, because my my first name is Siri. But Sikka has been my nickname my whole life. So, when I lived in Scotland for many years, then I just got rid of the old you know, Syria name. It was too much for anyone.

Matthew Dols 0:55
totally understandable. Okay. All right. My, one of the first things I always love to know about people is basically how did you become creative? So parents schooling, like, What? What got you into even being creative in the first place?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 1:09
Well, it’s quite simple. In my case, I was drawings. And you know, my parents put me in art school when I was five years old. I was just drawing the whole time. So I kind of grew up with an artist mum and my parents very understanding and interested in the art. So and my mother being a textile artist. And so they put me in art school. And ever since I remember myself, I was good at drawing. So I just continued to do that. And then after I graduated from gymnasium, I went straight to art school, and not because I loved art. Well, I did, but it was because I was good at drawing. But then I learned about contemporary art and everything once I was in art school, but it was all about because of drawing, basically.

Matthew Dols 2:04
Okay, wait one second. Let’s go back a second. You have in Iceland, by the way, you’re my first Icelandic guest. Want to throw that out there? Very excited. You have art schools in Iceland for five year olds.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 2:18
Yeah, classes, art classes. And my mother was at the art school that, you know, she was doing her degree in art when I was five years old. So they had classes for kids in the basement. And I remember being put in one of these classes. But I was like, by far the youngest because the other kids were like nine year olds. And at the time, everybody was wearing like Mohawks in the art school, like the grown ups were like punk rock. I thought it was really exciting. And I think I just all these crazy looking artists, people that were so sweet and friendly to the kids. So yeah, we got to be in the basement with some professional artists, teaching us how to draw and stuff.

Matthew Dols 3:02
That’s Marvel, I was thinking like, there was like, in the way like, you go into a gym, gymnasium, and it’s like, technical or mathematical or science or arts, that that started at five years old. But it’s not that this was sort of outside of core curriculum thing. Yeah. Okay, good.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 3:20
Yeah. Yeah, it was. Definitely. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 3:23
And then you went on to go to school and get your masters in Scotland, correct?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 3:28
Yes. Correct.

Matthew Dols 3:29
What drove that interest?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 3:32
I think it was just a stomach feeling. You know, I wanted to go to the UK. I was looking at London, but then I don’t know I found a Scotland i’d, at the time, I’d never been to Scotland. And somebody told me about the Glasgow School of Art being one of the top schools in the whole of UK. So I applied. And I got in, and then I moved there. It was like that. I had no idea about. Yeah, I think I was just following a feeling of wanting to be there like wanting to live in that country.

Matthew Dols 4:06
What did you have an intention of being like a professor or a teacher or anything like this? Because oftentimes, people who go for MFA would do that for the sole purpose of that.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 4:17
No, I only wanted to get, you know, change my environment. Because when I was studying, I mean, I live in Iceland, it makes sense to move somewhere. So I basically went to I want it first I thought I wanted to learn animation or something like that. And then thankfully, some professor at the article in Iceland told me that was I should go for fine art. So I did that about but I really had the strong feeling that at the time when I was studying in Reykjavik when I was doing my BA it was the school was like super conceptual and Being like more of a drawing painting person, I wanted to go somewhere and find out different art scenes and I didn’t feel like I belonged in the art scene in Iceland until later.

Matthew Dols 5:14
So that’s interesting. So, so you think that the word wasted that school they Reykjavik in Reykjavik was very conceptual? Like, if I were to sit back and think Icelandic art, I would probably say, indigenous, kind of like, sort of tribal kind of things, or very conceptual, like those would be the two ends of the spectrum.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 5:34
Yeah, I think you’re right. You know, that’s pretty. Okay. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 5:39
I think of myself as reasonably worldly. So I hope to know this.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 5:44
It’s quite an amazing art scene, actually. Because there are so many artists living here. I think that’s what makes it so fun to live here, you know, to be an artist, because there’s like a lot of, and it’s, it’s not super commercial, it’s quite, you know, a lot of artists run spaces. And so

Matthew Dols 6:06
one thing that I’m fascinated about Iceland is sort of based on what you’re talking about, which is that there are tons of artists there and lots of creative people. Icelandic music, like, there’s tons of different versions of creativity that comes out of Iceland. Part of that, I believe, is because of the amazing. I don’t know, I don’t even know what it is to help me out. But like, there seems to be some governmental support, kind of like things that sort of,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 6:31
there is some governmental support you can apply for. It’s not quite as grand as in, you know, like Sweden or Norway, surrounding countries, but I wouldn’t come play we can apply for all these, you know, different kinds of grants. So there is governmental help.

Matthew Dols 6:53
Okay, but what kind of government? The reason why I’m asking is because on your CV, I was noticing things like professional artists salary is given by the Ministry of Culture. Okay, I’ve never even heard of something like that before they pay your salary. That’s insane.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 7:11
Well, you apply, and it’s like, super competitive. And every year, you have to apply in October for the coming year. So we have to list what your what you have coming up and, and you can get everything from three months, up to two years of being paid monthly. minimum wage, but still for an artist. That’s grant, you know,

Matthew Dols 7:35
I will take minimum wage.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 7:37
Yeah. So every year we apply for this and you know, and, and it’s always like, this moment in January, when it’s like, you know, people go crazy, somebody you know, who gets it and who not and, but at least it’s there. And,

Matthew Dols 7:53
Okay, wait a minute, though. What is Icelandic minimum wage?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 7:58
I’m not so good with these kind of numbers.

Matthew Dols 8:01
work because I would imagine your minimum wage is very different than American minimum wage or check minimum wage.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 8:08
Well, it’s very expensive to live in Iceland. So that’s why I’m saying this grant we apply for, it’s compared to people with normal jobs, they wouldn’t find they would not find this good way to you know, but for us, this is like, fantastic. Because it’s the monthly, this monthly payment, like right now I have six months, and that’s totally like, amazing. It’s just creates this kind of security, that it’s really hard to get come by as an artist. So within that we can, you know, be creative without having to think about paying bills, you know, at least that will be covered.

Matthew Dols 8:53
That sounds magical. But okay, is that only available for Icelandic citizens? Or like, let’s say I’m an artist from another country, and I want to come to Iceland, and do some work? Can I apply for those kinds of grants?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 9:05
Yes, you can.

Matthew Dols 9:07
Score, I’m all for it. Let’s do it.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 9:10
Yeah, you don’t need the citizenship, you just need to be a part of the team. And you have to have like a legal home in Iceland or something like this.

Matthew Dols 9:19
Okay, that’s a little bit of a barrier.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 9:21
But yeah, well, you need to be working within our team basically. But I’m not sure what the rules are, but I’m pretty sure you don’t need the citizenship. That’s not we don’t,

Matthew Dols 9:32
since you’re my first Icelandic guest Tell me a little bit about like, what constitutes the art scene that no Where are you in Reykjavik? Or are you outside like in some not city oriented place like so they give me some background on where you are?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 9:50
Yeah, well, I’m in the city center of Reykjavik and I have my studio here as well by like, 10 minutes away from my home. So, yeah, I, I live in work very local, you know, in, in the, in the Reykjavik center?

Matthew Dols 10:07
And is it like a nice tight knit community? Like, do you all know each other and share things? Or is it very, like competitive? Like, give me some sort of like gossip on the on the art? Okay.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 10:19
Okay, I would say it was like, super, we all know each other basically, visual artists, musicians, you know, it’s a very tight knit community of artists. And we’ve, some people have even, you know, known each other since childhood. This is such a small population in this country, and the art scene, I’ve experienced it, mostly, you know, like, quite friendly. I mean, of course, it is competitive, because we don’t have so many opportunities. And we all have to apply for the same grants and apply for the same exhibitions and stuff. But I think all in all, it’s like, pretty much like a big family, like a large family of when people are supportive and help out each other. My studio is in a building with lots of other artists, it’s in Reykjavik association of sculptors. So it’s really nice institution thing.

Matthew Dols 11:16
Yeah, I miss that from grad school, like having that communal studio space.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 11:22
Yeah, I mean, I have my own private studio, but at least you know, there is communal space, where you can go downstairs and meet people. And you know, there’s workshops where you can build things and make things communally. But yeah, so I think that’s really nice. Because otherwise we’d be, I’d be super isolated. It’s isolating enough to live here.

Matthew Dols 11:47
You’re sounding a little down on Iceland.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 11:50
And really,

Matthew Dols 11:52
is it just the end of winter? You’re just a little like, okay, I want some time away.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 11:56
Well, it’s there’s been like this. pandemics, or nobody has left the island for like, a year and a half. No, like, it’s no, I really didn’t mean to sound down.

Matthew Dols 12:11
Like, but you know, I live in Iceland, like, so. Yeah,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 12:14
no, I can’t, there is limited opportunities, which is, which is what I meant. Living here is great. But it’s a great community of artists, but also, most people have part of their careers going on elsewhere, which was going to be my next question, which was sort of, is there a need to be involved in the outside world, you

Matthew Dols 12:36
know, sort of off island? What How do you all refer to that, like off island? That which say,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 12:41
I’ve never I’ve never used that word, but it sounds good. When I’m, yeah, okay. I think there’s some artists who are pretty much very, you know, they’re very local, and then all the other artists that are more international. I think, like in every art scene, there’s like some local artists that, you know, don’t have an international career, and then there’s artists that work more internationally and don’t do so much here. And, you know, I think it’s, it’s all different. But I think it is, if you’re going to try and live from this, I think it’s very important to have an international career as well. Because it really, yeah. Again, it’s an island.

Matthew Dols 13:28
Well, I mean, that that’s the thing is like everybody talks about, like you build your community, you know, your your people in your sort of tribe, in your neighborhood, whatever. But at a certain point, you’re going to run out of opportunities to exhibit or you’re going to run out of collectors to buy more of your work because they only their homes are only so large, or their collections are only so big, and you’re gonna have to branch out. So that’s why I sort of wonder, like, Iceland is, I mean, I don’t take any of us offensively, but like, it’s kind of isolated in geographically. And so I would imagine it’s a little difficult for you, or maybe it was difficult, and it’s getting easier. So like, websites, social media, like has it gotten easier in the past 10 years?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 14:11
A little bit. I think maybe it has to do with the internet. Or maybe it has to do with there seems to be more interest in Icelandic art from abroad than there used to be. Back when I was it just feels like yeah, I feel like there are more opportunities going on that possibly are linked to off Island places. Now I mean,

Matthew Dols 14:37
I’ve coined the phrase it’s excellent well, cuz like looking through your CV like you’ve been doing exhibitions in Sweden and in I even saw in New York City and in Germany and Belgium and all kinds of different places. So they, I feel like it to a certain extent, it’s it’s a necessary element of the growth of somebody’s career that like they start sort of locally and then they span. So my question, then it really is for you. How did you pull that off? Because you’re kind of you know, you’re, you’re not going to the art openings in New York City and meeting people. So like, how did you make these connections and get these opportunities?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 15:17
One, you know, I think Glasgow has a lot to do with it, you know, being having been based, I was based in Glasgow for a long, long time, long, you know, a long time after I graduated. I think that really helped me get some more opportunities. And the Glasgow MFA also, you know, there was a lot of people coming in like curators and art people that would invite us to do shows in different places. And the MFA group was very international also. So I think that’s one of the reasons Another reason is that, not so long after I graduated, I started working with a gallery in Frankfurt. So there was a lot of opportunities coming in Germany and Switzerland, that area. And I actually, I’ve often thought about this, but I never really know how it was like, you know, if it was chance, or you know, because at the time, the work wasn’t traveling so much on the internet, you know, it was more like, somebody saw a show, and, and maybe when I graduated from Glasgow, maybe that was a fortunate time for drawing, perhaps, or I think it was a different, lots of different things. But I think some of it luck, and some of it, I think, being Yeah, I think Glasgow seem to be seem to have picked a good place to be based.

Matthew Dols 16:47
All right, so did you how did you get that first gallery. Because they that I mean, that’s the big thing a lot of artists are sitting around in their studios, they’re making and making and making. And if we have time, we will put more time into producing more artwork before we will go out and socialize or put together a portfolio and submitted to a gallery or whatever. So it’s like, how do you even get that like, first gallery,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 17:11
I don’t know in. In my case, the galleries saw my work in an art fair in London. I think it was the SU Art Fair. This is years and years ago, when I was working with some curators from London that saw my work in my MFA show. And then this particular galleries from Germany happened to come have an interest for Icelandic artist and I met her in Iceland. And she did a discover studio visit. And then we were working together for I think, seven or eight years. But that gallery had has closed down now. But it was a nice first experience of working with a gallery. So I actually have never known how that happens. If that’s the chance or, you know,

Matthew Dols 18:03
oh, no, you know, exactly, you know,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 18:05
I don’t have any wise strategies or why I’m trying to figure out the why strategy. Well, they say the, you know, not that I know, but you know, I’m just an artist, but they say that you should never contact the gallery. You know, I don’t know if that’s true that, you know, if you send send your portfolio places, and you know, nobody looks at them. So

Matthew Dols 18:30
I used to work in a gallery, and I don’t remember ever picking up or starting to represent anybody who submitted directly to us,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 18:39
right? That’s my point. So I guess it’s best not never to do that. And then I figured it’s best to just keep working.

Matthew Dols 18:47
Or but you can’t keep working like in private, like you still have to be a part of the community. So like, you still have to have curators do those studio visits and do other things like so you still have to be engaged. You can’t just be a hermit and making your stuff in, in a cave or anything like you actually still have to talk with people and meet with people.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 19:07
True. Yeah, I guess. But I think when you live in an art scene, you go to the openings, you get to know people and things happen that way. You take part in an art scene, wherever you are. Even if you’re in Iceland it’s really important to be a part of the scene. Just like it was important important to be a part of the Glasgow seen when I lived there.

Matthew Dols 19:32
Okay, so let’s get down to sort of the nuts and bolts of it. So like D Are you 100% artists? That’s the only job you have or do you have other jobs to help out?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 19:42
Yeah, I am 100% artists, even though I teach to even in classes.

Matthew Dols 19:48
Okay, that’s a little side job. So they will call you 90% artists 10%.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 19:54
Teacher, well, I teach drawing. So yeah,

Matthew Dols 19:56
I love it. I teach and I feel like it helps sort of Keep me sharp because it keeps me questioning why I do things when I have to explain it to somebody else.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 20:06
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. teachings great. It is great.

Matthew Dols 20:10
How do you make that living? So you’re selling? Are you? Are you supported by the government? Like, what’s the How do you make your living because like, I don’t make a living from my art. So I’m coming to you as a as an idiot who’s not being successful. asking somebody who, well, by your own mission is being somewhat successful.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 20:29
Some years are good, and some are bad, you know, I, right now I got this grant from the government for six months. And then I do some teaching in between. And sometimes I don’t get any grants. But I think I made a decision to never have a really good job. I think that’s where the danger lies. When people get like, really nice jobs with good salaries that, then they just never go back to the studios, because if you work in, you know, advertising, or do something kind of creative and, and well paid. That’s dangerous. So I think you just get used to this anxiety of not knowing what next month. Yeah, but of course, I sell my work as well. And sometimes I sell especially around exhibitions, but sometimes there’s no sale. So it’s really just not to need too much, you know, to keep the live standards pretty low. And then, you know, as long as you can pay the studio rent and your art supplies, art supplies, and you know, you need a home and you know,

Matthew Dols 21:36
I do, yeah, we all have the same issues. Do you use like your website or social medias? Or any other sort of internet things on your own? Or do your galleries do all of that sort of stuff for you?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 21:50
Ah, well, right now, I don’t work with a gallery. So I have answers that question. So I’m basically doing all the everything, you know, myself, I have a website and Instagram, but I don’t have any, you know, like, sales, you know, I don’t sell my work that way,

Matthew Dols 22:13
what I saw some of your works and some of your work. Okay, so some of his works on paper. And some of it is sort of either painted on the walls of an exhibition space, or on a public space or something like this. So they’re sort of permanent and or painted over or washed away, or whatever. So it seems like so you chosen to almost like make like two sets of works like you have like site specific installation or performative works. And then you sort of have the works on paper, kind of like Christo. So like he makes his work on paper sells those to be able to fund the other bigger projects.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 22:49
Well, I’m not that calculated that that works on paper, just you know, I don’t always have an exhibition space to work. And so I work on paper every day, to something about working always on paper, it’s really a lot of freedom to not have that scary big canvas. Of course, I sell my drawings that are on paper. I have sold wall drawings as well, both as being commissioned, and there was this one Museum in Sweden that managed to get the wall drawing off of this floppy thing. paint off paint. I’m not joking. So I don’t know how they did that. But I think it was that water color Museum in Sweden. Yeah, that that was interesting. I try not to think of anything made for selling. Okay,

Matthew Dols 23:49
I will fully admit that is totally my us perspective of like, make a piece of art, put it up, sell it, take that money reinvested, make more artwork. And that is a completely wrong model, as far as Europe is concerned, as far as I can tell, like you all are very much more about produce something that is meaningful and expressive of your idea. And you’re funded somehow to do to do the creation of it. So the sales are kind of irrelevant.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 24:22
Well, of course, they’re never irrelevant, because, you know, but yeah, we try to think of it as irrelevant, of course. But having said that, it’s, it’s really important that to be able to sell something, but of course, if you are a video installation artist or something, it’s difficult. So it’s easier when you have drawing or painting or sculpture or some object to sell

Matthew Dols 24:49
with it. Do you only sell original drawings or do you do prints or anything like this?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 24:54
Only originals?

Matthew Dols 24:56
I come from a photography background. So we’re all about print. So I’m always fascinated,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 25:02
I think it’s due to a part of it is technical laziness. It’s a practical, I just want the freedom of drawing. Because I produce a lot of work, you know, I draw really, I work really fast. So I like the fact that there’s many of them. And they’re all different. And to select which one I’m going to print and make into an object for sales is difficult for me, I’m not good at editing, it will stop the process of making it

Matthew Dols 25:35
that fascinates me. So are you when you’re, let’s say, you have an exhibition all lined up, you say you make lots of work. So you have a large quantity of things, let’s say in your studio that you could potentially exhibit who makes those decisions? You, curator gallerist? museum person?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 25:53
Yeah, depends. Sometimes I most of the times, you know, I do it depends on who I’m working with. If I’m working with a curator that I maybe know or trust, you know, I think it’s really helpful to have, you know, I try to use curators and museum people to do this with me, you know, like, bounce back and forth ideas, because I think I’m not possibly not my best editor. And I’m not afraid to admit that. Because there’s a lot of drawings. And and it’s always surprising, especially when people are selecting work. I’m, I’m like this one, are you sure? And then I’m like, Oh, I really like that one. And but I think when I was younger, I wanted to be in control of all this. But now I find it fascinating. You know, they’re all different. And, yeah, I have opened up this possibility that I might not be the best to select, but sometimes I am. And I want to control everything. I guess it depends who I’m working with.

Matthew Dols 26:58
I have the exact same experience, which is the basically like, anytime I have a studio visit or a curator look at my works. Almost every time I have some like, crap stuff on the on the walls that I’m just like, ah, those are just sketches. And they’re like, those are magnificent. And then I show them the real stuff that I think you’re like, done and finished and beautiful. And they’re like, I like the stuff on the wall better. I’m like, What the fuck. And but but then it gets even worse, because I’ll do an exhibition and I’ll put up, you know, 15 pieces, and then suddenly that I noticed there’s like an empty wall. And I’ll just throw an extra piece up there, just like it’s just a piece that didn’t quite fit perfectly whatever. Everybody loves that random little thing that I threw up at the end, and don’t care as much about the things that I put huge amount of work and effort into that. Why?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 27:50
I don’t know, I’m not sure it’s, I don’t know, it’s like our work is this independent thing. And, and I feel like, we as artists are maybe not always allowed to have this kind of final opinion, because they have their own life and energy. And it’s hard to tell what people will relate to, you know, it’s impossible. And also, I think it’s really can be dangerous to control too much, you know, you have to like, you don’t want to control the process too much. I don’t you know, of making the work, it needs to be a certain amount of freedom. So when you get into an exhibition space, that freedom, I feel like this creative process needs to still be going on until the exhibition was finished. And if that involves other people coming in and having opinion, at the same time, if I do not agree, then you know, I think it’s important to say no, I’m not gonna show that half finished drawing.

Matthew Dols 28:57
Yeah, there’s a certain amount of sort of confidence you have to have, but it’s a difficult balance. Because like, on the one hand, you you want to create works that connect with people and or theoretically in the end sell. But on the other hand, you sort of want to keep true to your vision, your style, whatever kind of thing you want to put to it. So it’s it’s a very difficult balance to ride. Period. Yeah, that’s it.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 29:24
Yeah, it is.

Matthew Dols 29:26
Yeah. All right. There’s the thing. I’ve got this ongoing thing. For years, I’ve had this problem. And I wonder what your perspective on this is because you’re from a different region. So I’m sort of interested in how this is done sort of in your region. Artists statements. Do you do them? Do you write them yourself? Do you have other people or curators write them? Do you enjoy writing them?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 29:52
Well, let’s start there. I don’t enjoy writing them. I think there are learn thing that we are taught that we have to do. I think sometimes it comes naturally. In my case, I often write texts, they are maybe more abstract, they’re not not really a statement, they’re more like, a text that maybe works with the visual part of the work, like more as to open up ways to read the drawings, more than it’s a closure of like explaining what’s actually happening there. That’s the kind of texts that I enjoy writing. But are the statements. I mean, it’s great if somebody else writes the text. I guess it’s important when you are looking at an exhibition to have a text, you know, and it has to be the right text.

Matthew Dols 30:48
I feel like I constantly write the wrong text. Like, I don’t know why I don’t know how I’m very bad with it.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 30:56
Oh, no,

Matthew Dols 30:57
I like I love it when curators come in and write text for my work, because I feel like they see things and express things that maybe I didn’t even know I was doing. Or they find connections to other artists or art history that I didn’t even wasn’t even aware of.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 31:16
No, yeah,

Matthew Dols 31:17
I think it’s amazing.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 31:18
I think so. It’s really cool. Because that’s their job. You know, it’s like that we’re not supposed to be the analytics of our own work. You know, that’s a misunderstanding. It’s a big misunderstanding.

Matthew Dols 31:32
Agreed.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 31:33
Okay. Yes.

Matthew Dols 31:36
Yeah, but it but the problem is, is that it’s kind of a mandatory thing, because like you write grants request, what have you done any like residences? And things like this? Also?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 31:45
Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 31:46
Yeah. And they all mandate artists statements in there, and it drives me fucking nuts. Because they’re, they’re just ridiculous. Like, it’s hard enough to just be able to make an interesting or beautiful or use Word beautiful art piece of art or something that is expressive or whatever. That’s hard in and of itself. And generally, we, as visual artists have chosen to, to use the visual arts to express ourselves because we’re probably not good writers. Like, that’s why if I was a good writer, I would have been a writer.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 32:20
True. Yeah. And I mean, it is basically like, you know, a writer needs to make their own book cover. No, I totally agree. I think it I find it ridiculous. Because, like, I mean, if you hold on to the text too much, then, I mean, it’s visual art, then, aren’t you missing the think the work doesn’t need words, or I mean, you should be able to experience a piece of visual art without the text. The text is can be interesting, if it’s creative, like an interesting text, but if it’s just like, information information, then, you know, aren’t we just missing the fact that we’re supposed to be like experiencing the piece of art, you know, like, we’re, that’s how I feel about this, but I’m sure a lot of people would disagree.

Matthew Dols 33:12
I’m sure there are but I mean, but there’s also even not not even like text. There’s also just titling the work. Like, I hate the pressure of titling a work because I one time I actually titled work I titled it, like, some woman’s name, like Elizabeth, or No, I never remember it was it was Beatrice, I titled A piece Beatrice. And I had a friend who was like, Oh, my gosh, I love this piece. I want to buy it. And then she went, and she leaned over and she looked at the title, and she said, Beatrice, and she goes, Oh, no, I don’t want it anymore. Because she had some bad experience with somebody named Beatrice. And I lost the sale. Wow, because I titled it poorly.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 33:55
Wow. That’s a sad story. My connection, like relationship with titles I, I never used to title my work, but now I quite enjoy it. I feel like it’s a part of part of the drawing to give it a title. And it’s become like, an extra part of the draw, you know, it’s not to explain the drawing. It’s to open up like I was talking about before, like to more to open up gateways to you know, you’re looking and you get just one word. Beatrice or whatever it is, then you know, it can it possibly can ruin the drawing. I’m aware of that it like in your story. It’s obvious. Danger Zone.

Matthew Dols 34:41
I told her I was willing to retitle that for her. She’ll buy it, but she would know.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 34:47
Oh, no. It’s a pretty bad Beatrice experience there.

Matthew Dols 34:51
I apologize. Anybody named Beatrice listening, but that did not go well for me. No.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 34:57
Well, it’s a nice name.

Matthew Dols 35:00
I thought so. works on paper. I’m fascinated with it. So how did you? How did you come to choosing to do works on paper? Did you say, I don’t want to deal with canvases and lugging canvases around and shipping canvases or like, So was there some sort of intentional purpose of state of choosing in that way? Or was it that you are pure, like love of paper,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 35:26
when I was doing my BA in Iceland, I was in a painting department. So I did a lot of painting during my BA paintings, you know, oil on canvas, and acrylic on canvas, all of this. And it always felt like the drawings were sketches. That’s how they taught you, you know, you should do a sketch, and then you do a drawing, like a painting. So it wasn’t like, I think I didn’t realize until I started my MFA in Glasgow that somebody just said to me, hang on, like, isn’t this just the work? Basically, and I was like, yeah, maybe it is. And that’s what I actually enjoy doing. I, you know, just did the sketches all the time, but I hated doing the paintings. And I had this difficult relationship with painting, drawing, also, because the material was cheap. AML, at least in Glasgow, you know, I got this big, massive roll of free paper. And, you know, it was just easy to get by, you know, like, newsprint, paper and paper that wasn’t so good, you know, but, but still, there was all of a sudden, all this material to work on, that I didn’t have to pay so much for. And using, you know, cheaper materials. I think that was a big part of this, you know, new newly discovered freedom, you know, when I was starting the MFA, like thinking like, oh, wow, I don’t have to do these paintings, it doesn’t have to be a final result, I can just keep drawing and drawing and drawing. And that being the actual work, the process of drawing, and that’s where I still am, you know, just the process of drawing constantly, is my work. And when I do exhibitions, I bring a lot of them, and then I make installations, I hang them up, and they have like a visual conversation on the wall. It’s the same with ideas. If I get a great idea, it’s usually really bad. You know, it’s like when I get the feeling like, wow, I have this idea. I want to do this idea. And then, you know, there’s always there’s always like a disaster. So it’s also it is a statement, that is a concept not to have an idea. But I think that makes the process more interesting. Working for the process, not for the outcome.

Matthew Dols 37:49
Well, and that’s the old standing debate of process versus product kind of thing.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 37:53
Totally. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 37:55
Yeah. And sadly, in America, they emphasize the product over the process.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 38:01
Okay. That’s, that’s unfortunate. For Oh,

Matthew Dols 38:07
I so wish I was born in Europe, or at least maybe studied in Europe, like you all have it so much better than Really? Okay many ways, in many ways. Yes. Yeah. So you’re talking about doing lower quality materials, let’s say because it’s cost effective, which makes sense. But like, I found that as, as I get older, and the more that I work, the more snobbish, I become about good materials. Yeah. And like, you know, like, I remember being a kid, and I’d be like, Oh, that’s free. I’ll just make something with that. And people keep saying like, Oh, well, you’re an artist, why don’t you just go make something and I’m like, because I don’t have my good materials that I use. Like, I can’t just make from any old piece of shit material. I need my archival pH balance, whatever, like to do stuff that I use that works like, Yeah. Is that true with you as well? Did you sort of age into sort of snobbery?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 39:07
Oh, yeah, totally. But I think in the beginning, it’s, it’s important to be able to get all this confidence. I can draw anything, any, you know, I can just sit here and draw and, or not, but now Now, of course, when I’m working, I do use really good quality materials. Because I’m aging and I find it more. I just find that quality. Yeah, you know, it’s,

Matthew Dols 39:35
it has nothing to do with age. I don’t want to imply anything like that. But it has, it has to do with just sort of a maturity a knowledge and experiences like you start noticing, like, you know, like you may use the example of newsprint. So like the difference of a newsprint versus a reves bfk. That’s a huge difference. Yeah, just the feel of it the way it takes the ink. The paints like mean, totally different reactions that these things have. If you found a Do you have a particular brand paper that you like these days?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 40:10
Yeah, I’m using watercolor paper, because I use a lot of ink and watercolors and wash and that kind of stuff. So yeah, I’m using heavy duty watercolor paper, which everybody knows it’s quite expensive. But I think just to add to what I said, you know, with the cheap materials, once you’re exploring once you’re doing an MFA or at school, it’s so important to explore, to create a lot. And once you figured out what it is that you’re doing, and you’re more confident in it, that’s when the snop kicks in. That’s when you start to need to need better materials. But yeah, my favorite paper right now is like cotton, watercolor paper.

Matthew Dols 40:55
particular brand fabriano Reeves, what do you all get there? Like? Do you all have big art supply stores? there?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 41:03
No.

Matthew Dols 41:04
You okay, so you do like Internet ordering, and you have to pay tons and shipping for all this stuff.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 41:08
We have two good ones there. They’re not big. But they order good stuff. And I’ve also been able to order through them. And then I often when I travel I bring back with me a lot of supplies. Yeah, I’ve used all these kind of all these different kinds of paper that you’re saying, you know, like, you know, I think now I’m using some cans on paper or, or the other one. What was the name?

Matthew Dols 41:33
fabriano Reeves. Yeah,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 41:34
I’ve used all of these. But

Matthew Dols 41:36
yeah, Stonehenge.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 41:38
Yeah,

Matthew Dols 41:39
I played I did printmaking for a while. So like, I am a little bit of a paper snob. I love a beautiful paper.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 41:44
Me too. It’s it’s really important, especially when, you know, working with things like ink and watercolors. And it’s really I used to work more with acrylics. And when I was younger, I just made everything on simple drawing paper. And I think that can be really beautiful as well. But then the materials have changed recently, like only in the last year, I’ve been using this watercolors and things that I haven’t been really into. Which is interesting how a change of materials can be huge for an artist, like the pop press what cold pressed I don’t remember what which is which

Matthew Dols 42:30
the one with hard press is smooth cold press is textured.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 42:35
Smooth, always

Matthew Dols 42:37
hot press. Yeah, like hot press. Interesting.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 42:40
I don’t like the touch texture.

Matthew Dols 42:43
I’m working on some works with 600 GSM. So like cardboard thickness.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 42:50
Wow. Okay, yeah.

Matthew Dols 42:52
super expensive by by the sheet like, holy crap, so expensive.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 42:57
I know.

Matthew Dols 42:58
Luckily, I didn’t pay for it. So that’s fine. So looking at your work, you do a lot of work that is sort of what I would call sort of either permanent or sort of site specific kind of things. How do you pull that off? Like, because like, I’ve never done site specific work like that, that basically you do it on a location? And then basically, when the exhibition is done, it’s gone.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 43:21
Yeah. So

Matthew Dols 43:23
like, how, how is that funded? Like, paid to pull the bank? Because when it’s all done, you can’t sell it? And so how does that work?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 43:36
Um, I mean, I guess, I’m just used to not getting paid for my work. I think it’s, I mean, it’s all for the, you know, I just, if it’s important for the exhibition I’m doing then, you know, if it’s important for me, I’ll do it, you know, some places they pay you by, you know, like some museums, they pay you by the hour when you’re installing, which is great, but then you doing something in a gallery or an artist run space, of course, you’re not going to get paid. But I think that’s for me, it’s interesting to bring this up, because the wall drawings are, I feel a lot of the time that they’re more a little bit like a performance, you know, it’s something that’s there for a certain amount of time. And to make it I always enter the space with no sketches, and no ideas, really. And then I kind of like, spend a lot of time in within the exhibition space, and then I create something on the wall. And then after the exhibition, it gets painted over. So I just documented really well. And that’s the work and it’s like, I get this question. A lot of the time when you have spent a lot made the detailed drawing on a wall, like oh no is it going to be painted over? But that’s so important, because that gives it less of a you know, significance. If it’s a permanent piece on a wall, it’s really like, Oh my god, this is gonna be here forever. I have to make like this masterpiece. But then when it’s like, oh, the exhibition runs for like, what? A month, six weeks. It’s more playful. You know, it’s really, it can be really funny.

Matthew Dols 45:19
Artists fees, you mentioned them in the museum, that they pay an hourly rate. So the question would be just what do you know about them? And because there’s sort of a, there’s a movement to create these honorarium, stipends artists fees for artists to help pay for their installation times their travel, or whatever kind of things like so like, What do you know about that? And do you support it?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 45:45
Yeah, of course, I think it’s really important that the museums can pay their artists in Iceland, I only know mostly about what happens over here is a fairly recent thing that we are getting paid, there was a big movement about it, pay visual artists. So some museums now have extra funding to pay the artists and, and also for the amount of installation time, like last time I did a wall drawing in the Reykjavik Museum, I got paid by the hour. And that was like, Oh, my God, I’ve never gotten anything like that before. You know, apart from Sweden, of course, where things seem to be like, yeah.

Matthew Dols 46:29
So you’re telling us we should all go to Sweden to do

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 46:33
you should? Yeah, I think they have pretty fancy grants. But but at least that support system for the museum’s seem to get funded that I mean, but this is a new thing, right? You know, over here, it sounds like I was not brought up in this luxury of getting paid by the hour. I’ve very often, like any every artists in Iceland, you know, like, so many times have done museum shows. And the installation, people are way better paid, of course, you know, and even, you know, the people that bring the work, you know, to the museum, the people that help you install it, everybody’s getting paid, but not the artist. That’s how it normally was. And sometimes still is. I yes, in many countries it is. But fairly recently, this has changed over here. So that I basically only know mostly about what happens here. And of course, having when I’ve done stuff in different countries, it’s very so MUCH between countries, what kind of support you get, if you get any support at all?

Matthew Dols 47:46
Well, it’s a great question of like, Why do prepare amateurs get paid their salaries to install your artwork in a museum, but the artists whose work is being installed doesn’t get paid for that time? Yeah, it’s very unfair.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 48:01
Isn’t it? Amazing? I mean, I don’t think any actor would be working on stage, you know, without being paid. You know, I don’t know. Why are we? Why is it like that? It’s incredible. Well,

Matthew Dols 48:15
I mean, it goes back to the whole question of like, why does the whole sort of starving artist thing even exist? Like, I hate that term, and I wish it never existed? Because it’s made it so that like artists, and creatives, you know, this is true writers, musicians, visual artists, all of us are kind of second class citizens. We’re very looked down upon versus people who have like, quote, unquote, like normal jobs.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 48:41
proper job. Why

Matthew Dols 48:42
do you call proper jobs? Okay, well,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 48:45
I’m joking.

Matthew Dols 48:46
So, in contrast to the proper jobs, yeah. Why are we looked down on because all those people that have those proper jobs, they all go to concerts, they all Well, maybe not all, but that many of them go to museums, they all have homes that they decorate with art. So they, we are an integral part of their lives, whether it’s like decorative works, let’s say on their walls, or whether it’s the designers who do the ceramic work stuff that they use for their dishware or whatever. So like, designers, creative people, artists, we are integral to their lives, but yet we are treated like second class citizens in comparison to them.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 49:28
Yeah. Do you want me to answer that question? Yeah, it’s a good question. I mean, of course, some people just buy their artwork from IKEA. They just put off whatever was inside that crappy frame they bought.

Matthew Dols 49:47
Nope. But some artists designed that.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 49:50
Oh, that’s that’s a point. Yeah. But I don’t know. I’m not sure. I think it’s a lot of people that have proper jobs. appreciate our work and artists and they buy work and they go to concerts and all this kind of thing. So it’s, it’s not like everybody knew, you know, a lot of people appreciate this. And but I’m not sure I think every year in Iceland, there’s a conversation like a conversate. There’s like a big fight on the internet, when the artist grants, you know, the artist salaries are handed out. And everybody goes crazy, like, not just artists that didn’t get it. Most of them are like, okay, it’s gonna be a bad year. But let’s try again. But there’s always this huge argument online about, you know, this, you know, and it’s like a hatred towards artists. And we’re taking money from, you know, the hospitals and they go all the way into, like, how that it’s like this great hobby we have that they are paying their taxes to fund and blah, blah, blah. But anyway, I try not to read these things. I think it’s just a lot of the time. It’s a small group of people, isn’t it?

Matthew Dols 51:02
It’s everywhere, though. Yeah, we get the same thing in the United States, we have the NPR radio, we have National Endowment for the Arts, and they are constantly being threatened with their budgets being caught and things like this. So like, it’s a very normal thing in most countries to under fond and under appreciate the arts. And the irony is like, this is the I grew up in Washington, DC. So politics and that kind of crap, I actually know a decent amount. The problem that I have with it is okay, so like, there are these senators and congresspeople, so your parliamentary people sitting there saying, Oh, no, we shouldn’t fund the arts. And then on weekends, they go to the opera, or to the theater or to art events. And so they participate, they, they they funded by buying tickets, and all that, but they won’t fund the creation of it in the first place. So like, they cut the money on the one hand, and then on the other hand, they go out and participate in it. So I’m like, be consistent, just make a choice. Like, I really, like I thoroughly admire the way Europe and even the Scandinavian regions, sort of put their sort of put their money where their mouth is, they say, like, we support the arts, and here’s our money, we really do support, you know, don’t get me wrong, they can always support more, but at least they they’re doing substantially more than a lot of the world, you know, you go to Asia or South America, there’s substantially less, you know, Africa, almost very little arts funding, per se. I’m so sorry if I get that wrong, and hopefully some guests will correct me in the future if I got that wrong. But it seems like Europe and the Scandinavian regions, and I separate them, because they’re not part of the EU. But they they seem to do something well, like they do they do it right, in my opinion, because at least they’re trying to find you all.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 52:59
Yeah, that’s, I guess, compared to a lot of places, it’s considered, you know, luxury. But no, I think, you know, everybody’s very thankful when something like this happened, like during the pandemic, not that I was going to mention that. You know, like, last year, there was obviously a lot of artists having a difficult time, especially performative arts, and music, and you know, and also, exhibitions getting canceled, you know, all that, then we got some extra, we could apply for some extra funding there. So at least it was a part of the country’s emergency plan to fund artists. It wasn’t anything to change the world, you know, to change our lives, but it was still like, at least felt like they were trying. So I felt really thankful about that.

Matthew Dols 53:58
When I was a kid, I traveled to Belize, and I was down there for like, a month. And I remember us, I was probably 1819 years old. And I remember the money, the currency in Belize, had artwork by their national artist on their currency. And when I saw that, I was like, holy shit, this country appreciates their artists to the extent that they’re going to put the artwork by their national artists a they even have a national artist, that’s all huge they, but be that they then put it on the currency. That’s how important they saw art.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 54:41
Yeah,

Matthew Dols 54:42
that just inspired me greatly that like there are places in the world where art and artists and creativity are admired and respected.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 54:51
Yeah, that has happened to you even. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 54:55
very cool. Okay, yeah, let’s, let’s sort of wrap this up. I’ve got two little ones. questions that I always ask? So first question, could you name me three contemporary artists that you admire respect? Or are sort of looking at yourself?

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 55:12
I’ve been like a David Lynch fan since you know, I don’t know when I think that was one of like a huge influence for me, Kate Bush. She’s great. Like this amazing woman.

Matthew Dols 55:28
You mean, Kate Bush is a musician, right? A musician. Okay.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 55:32
I mean, there’s so many filmmakers I could I could talk about but it would be so hard to. I mean, I used to look at so many films, like, I’m really interested in, you know, film. And, you know, I used to look a lot at David Lynch and Ray Harryhausen, and all this kind of more non traditional, non traditional, non Hollywood. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, I used to be inspired by young, Swank, Meier’s movies. And all, I don’t know, I wouldn’t know where to start and where to end it with people that have created something. And I will be sure to mention something that I would, if I mentioned someone, I would definitely have forgotten somebody else that was more important.

Matthew Dols 56:23
Last question is some advice to the next generation. So next generation of artists, what from your experiences, both positive and negative. So like maybe some things that you did wrong in your career, that you would say, Hey, stay away from doing this kind of thing. something helpful to them,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 56:41
I don’t know, I think it’s just really important not to, you know, think that there’s a certain calculated way to be you know, it’s just like, totally, the only thing you can do is to be yourself and make the work, you know, without, it’s, it’s, it’s that simple. In my case, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t put my head into all these art magazines, and blah, blah, and try to like, follow up what’s going on, or I think it’s more like a conversation with yourself, you know, and if you want to get somewhere in your work, you just have to make the work, make a lot and make mistakes and make a lot of mistakes.

Matthew Dols 57:25
Well, but don’t continue to make the mistake. So you

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 57:27
know, until you learn

Matthew Dols 57:29
to better,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 57:30
of course, but no, I love mistakes, I think they can be hilarious, you know, they can bring something, what you think is a mistake can actually be a beginning of something completely new. So I think to trust the process is the most important thing to trust the process and not to like, try to never to be desperate about the whole other the art world thing.

Matthew Dols 57:54
But it’s really easy to be desperate in the whole art world thing. Because it’s, it’s, it’s a huge thing. And there’s lots of press, and there’s lots of social media and there’s all kinds of stuff about it that make you they almost give you like, like imposter syndrome, because like all these other people seem to be doing super well. Getting press, lots of social media followers know,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 58:19
it’s an exercise to try not to get desperate because it’s terrifying process. But I think also, bitterness is the pure evil. That’s the end of an artist basically. So trying to stay away from that is super important.

Matthew Dols 58:38
Oh, yeah, a lot of artists as they get older, I hear more and more. Oh, so and so took this opportunity from me or I lost this thing because of that person. And, and there’s this, it’s very interesting, like, as artists get older, the ones who aren’t quote unquote, like successful and whatever, we end up having this sort of bitter attitude of like, I could have been blah, blah, blah, but so and so didn’t fund me or so and so wouldn’t exhibit me. And it’s a very common thing that like older artists become more embittered from a lack of gaining whatever sort of notoriety or success they desired or hoped for in their career.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 59:19
Yeah, that’s true. It’s very natural to become better I guess. What it’s like, you know, I think I’m gonna try every different way to stay away from that because it just seems to be the death of an artist to become better and that’s when it all must be going downhill because it’s it’s all about you know, not to dwell on all these things that you have to go through on the way to getting somewhere and I think it never stops. I think people even successful people can become better. I mean, it’s it’s never maybe this is my advice to myself, you know, trying what I’m gonna try not to do I also get used to the word know, you know, like to get used to like, Oh, I got to know. And Okay, then I’ll try again. You know, it’s like a million knows to get this Yes. And it’s gonna happen that you know if you keep trying. But if you dwell on the No, then it’s going to be no again.

Matthew Dols 1:00:21
I know I spoke to a person who was applying for a residency somewhere. And they happen to know somebody who worked there, and the person who worked there, they were friends. And so the person said, they got rejected the first year and the person that the work they said, Oh, we’ll just be sure to apply again, because we until you’ve applied three times, we don’t actually read your application. They she had to end up applying laughing like seven times in total before she actually got accepted. But like, that tenacity of continually, repeatedly applying for things over and over is seems to be like a part of the art world. It is such a sad state of affairs.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 1:01:07
Well, I think it’s also important to try and find the comedy, you know, find look at the comedy side of it, you know, it is this bizarre, it’s hilarious. We are all applying for the same funds and bla bla, we keep getting lots of no letters, and we don’t get paid. Normally, we don’t get paid for jobs. We’re really happy when we do. You know, it’s crazy. So it’s important to see the comedy side of it, you know, it’s everything is possibly funny. Otherwise, you know, it’s too depressing. And then we become better and then it’s over.

Matthew Dols 1:01:42
And on that note, we’ll wrap up this podcast. Lovely,

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 1:01:47
Amen.

Matthew Dols 1:01:48
Thank you very much for your time.

Sigga Bjorg Sigurdardottir 1:01:50
Thank you very much for your time.

Matthew Dols 1:01:56
I hope you are enjoying and learning from these conversations as much as I am. If you’d like the podcast, we would appreciate a five star rating and a nice comment would be greatly appreciated. Also, please tell your friends to listen and subscribe to you can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com