Transcript for Episode 016 – Painter, Michael Rowland (Prague, CZ)
Published on September 12, 2019
Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-painter-michael-rowland-prague-cz/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly.
Michael Rowland 0:14
Michael Rowland
Matthew Dols 0:16
lovely. And Michael, where are you from?
Michael Rowland 0:18
I’m from I was born in Canada. I was brought up in Ellesmere port near Liverpool where my family from, from the age of 1415. I was living in Lim, a village net closer to Manchester.
Matthew Dols 0:29
Say though again, but
Michael Rowland 0:30
last Lim Li w. m. l was a lovely small village. Actually, it’s a growing village. They’re about to call it a town.
Matthew Dols 0:39
So it’s getting a traffic light.
Michael Rowland 0:41
Yes. Yeah.
Matthew Dols 0:42
I’m always interested. How do people become artists? So nature versus nurture? kind of sort of interesting thing like that, you know, do you come What What did your parents do siblings was what kind of sort of household Did you were you raised in? Yeah,
Michael Rowland 0:57
my father was prison officer in Liverpool and then Risley, and my mother’s started life in war in work as a librarian. So if anything, the inspiration for becoming an artist came from literature, and my mother, because there was no, no artistic elements in the family at all. One uncle who had this fantastic house, no kids, a wife, and he used to paint. I used to go there as a child, and he used to have this drawing board. He did cartoons and things like that. It just seemed so romantic. was a beautiful cottage. And that’s all he did as a living and
Matthew Dols 1:39
yeah, we all have this beautiful romantic idea of being an artist, but doesn’t really work that way does it?
Michael Rowland 1:47
Well. Strangely enough, I feel like I’m living that romantic life. So I would not to disagree, but I think I’m at the moment really enjoying.
Matthew Dols 2:01
Please disagree. disagree. All you want. Yeah, I mean, the point of this podcast, the titles, the Wise fool. So like, I don’t know everything, and I’m wrong about many things. So feel free?
Michael Rowland 2:12
Well, that I think the key to really staying an artist is to enjoy it to love what you’re doing. I remember a friend of mine who was an illustrator saying that love was the key to doing great art and sticking with it. And I just thought that’s a bit I don’t quite get that love is not really the answer is that the motivation is quite abstract to love a picture or I get it now. It was a while ago, he said that and I get it. There’s got to be an absolute genuine sincere love for what you do.
Matthew Dols 2:43
Yeah, I like using the word passion for it. Because that to me, that inspires a, an act tell you you’re you’re passionate about something like either love. I think the word love is overused these days.
Michael Rowland 2:55
But I kind of but even the word and I think it’s difficult to be passionate every morning or every day when you’re painting
Matthew Dols 3:02
to feel loved painting.
Michael Rowland 3:05
Difficult to feel passionate for life every day. Yeah, dude. But the love can be there, you can still feel tender about it. You know, you sort of you could be a bit ruffled, but still love that kind of the fear of the blank canvas and the worry that you don’t have anything to say,
Matthew Dols 3:21
I’m sorry, you love that you love the fear.
Michael Rowland 3:24
It’s something that I would say I’m learning to love. There’s there’s an artist who lives in Jessica Saran who does this? She runs this course called the becoming artist. Group. Have you heard of these guys heard of these people? Yes. And part of their ethos is about learning to get over the the toxic demons on your shoulder, who are telling you you’re no good or telling the people better and you’ll never make it. You’re too old. And I don’t know, it’s that there’s a lot of inspiration from from listening to her that she’s a friend. So like we talk about this stuff. You don’t just buy the buy. But it’s it’s an inspiration. It’s to try and look at that negativity and embrace it. And because everyone has it. And I think that’s a nice thing to learn. When you start meeting more artists and meeting more people in the business, even listening to the podcast, you can hear that not everyone that you talk to knows what they’re doing. And that is exactly the point of this podcast is that everybody that I know in the arts industry, they know their thing, but they don’t they’re but they don’t know everything else. Yeah. So like everybody has a specialization. They know their one thing very well but they don’t know all the other things. And it’s it’s when I moved to Europe, I suddenly realized I sat down and I looked at the the arts community in Europe and I realized, I have no idea how this community works right at all. Every idea that I was taught in America and everything I learned with Living in the Middle East is completely different to hear in Europe, right? And I have no idea how it works. And what would you say is one of the main differences
Matthew Dols 5:09
here in Prague. So far my experiences have been a very nationalist regional, they have a strong interest in their own culture and their own method of expression and they do not have as strong an interest in basically sort of outsiders or your non Czech people coming in and participating, whatever you want to call that exhibiting, etc. It’s not as they’re not as interested as I had expected. I came here you know, guns blazing, thinking, like, Hey, I’m this like, Great American artist coming to the Europe zadig come from a foreign land, thinking everybody would be excited for me to be here. And now they have no interest in me whatsoever.
Michael Rowland 5:55
Of course, I’ve no, I’ve noticed that that element in the in the Czech art scene, but I think one of the reasons seems to be and I’ve heard this quite often as the the money that’s put into the galleries and the exhibitions, I don’t think they’ve got the cash to bring in the artists they wish they would particularly look like that would not check. So I don’t know. Yeah, I have not struggled with it. But I’ve certainly considered it and I don’t feel I don’t feel bitter about any of that, that the checks get the first dibs on the galleries, you know?
Matthew Dols 6:29
No, that’s not what I’m saying about it. It’s the it’s not that they get first dibs is quite honestly, they just aren’t interested, not maybe my words, not very good, whatever, like, that’s fine, I get that. But there it is. I’ve
Michael Rowland 6:40
seen it, but they don’t like it,
Matthew Dols 6:42
thank you, but they don’t even show an interest, like I will submit my portfolio. And they just won’t respond. I will show up to the gallery, I will do all the normal traditional ways of sort of introducing yourself to a gallery show no interest won’t respond to me at all. Like it’s just nothing. And I don’t know why I don’t. I’m doing everything that I was taught in America decades ago as the correct way to do these things. Sure. And it’s not correct here. These are my own issues, you know, and don’t get me wrong, like, doing this podcast has been very cathartic for me in some way. Because I’m able to connect with other people who are in some way in their own ways as lost and grappling with their own set of issues. I mean, they’re all different issues. But everybody’s got something that they don’t understand or don’t know how to do, right? Well, or want to succeed at that they haven’t yet or whatever. So, yeah, my issue is that like, I’ve been moving around a lot in my life, I’ve talked about this before the I’ve moved, I think a total of 19 times in my adulthood. And one of the things that has been to my detriment in the as being an artist is the lack of the ability to build a community. Because I’m not staying in any one community.
Michael Rowland 7:59
That’s interesting, because I think one of the keys to maybe getting recognized here and developing the possibility of having a show is, if you had a story or some kind of a community, or if there was a link to the country, if you had an show about, you know, American artists, or a particular theme, or particular, your own particular gang. That seems to be the way in with with a story, not so much the individual who they’ve not heard of, who says I’d like to show here, because I think that would be pretty much impossible that for anyone I know, to just put hands up and say that but yeah, I think that they’re not interested, the foot in the door is probably having having exactly what you said the community having a group of friends who are in the scene and, and trying to put on a group show with a theme. And then the theme would be more interesting than the individuals possibly who were in the in the show. It’s not just a person saying, Please, please show my work I want to be I want to be seen, which is basically what we want. But
Matthew Dols 9:03
which is basically what also is and this is something I’ve had conversations my whole life with other creative people. So not even just visual artists, all creative people, but we have set up lives for ourselves, which is basically we must beg that’s our lives. Because we whether we write a grant or write it for a residency or propose an exhibition or or per your approach, a gallery or a curator, basically our entire lives are we have produced this thing that we think is really nice looking or great concept or whatever. And we’re basically begging other people to appreciate it.
Michael Rowland 9:38
I’d say rather than begging. I’ll back this one back at your toe.
Matthew Dols 9:44
I’m a little bit of a pessimist on certain things.
Michael Rowland 9:46
Well, I guess this is either going to turn into an explosion of the unmovable object with the unstoppable object but because I’m a bit of an optimist, but I think recently I’ve also let let go of that. idea that I’m begging? Because certainly there’s days or weeks when it feels like that.
Matthew Dols 10:06
I mean, that’s why I mean, don’t get me wrong. Yeah, I shouldn’t say that. Like, we’re always begging. Yeah, but in the end, like, we can sit in the studio we can be producing and we love the act of producing work. Yeah. But then when it’s all done, and you have and you want to exhibit it, or sell it, or, or whatever, then it becomes backing,
Michael Rowland 10:23
I suppose. So, what I’ve, what I’ve recognized in the last couple of years, is, it’s very much about who you approach because the certainly people that I probably bumped into who, where there’s just no chemistry, you know, there’s, there’s no actual, this has been spoken about a bit on the podcast, the idea of having chemistry with the people that you’re working with, and it works the other way around from the artists to the curator, or the or the gallerist. Or sometimes the collector, you know, I would say you really have to find the people that actually like you, you know, as as, as a human being,
Matthew Dols 11:00
what and this is the thing that comes up a lot though, I do these reviews online through lens culture.com for photographers, and they’re constantly asking me, how do I find a gallery? How do I find collectors, right? So more works. And I always the response, I generally always give them his go to openings, because when people are go to events in general, participate in your arts community, because how I met you is indeed actually, so I mean that. But the reason for that is because no matter how amazing your art is, no matter the object itself, when somebody buys it, they want to have a story behind it, they want to have a connection to it, they want to have a connection to it. So whether it’s a collector or a gallerist, or curator, they want to feel like they’ve somehow engaged in because when they they put their time and energy and money into your work. So let’s say a gallery, let’s start work that way. When they put their time, energy and money into it. They’re investing in not just your work, but they’re investing in you as a person. Yeah. And that’s something that a lot of artists these days don’t realize, like they still are under the traditional form of I make beautiful things. I put beautiful things in a gallery space, and now they sell and you don’t need to see me,
Michael Rowland 12:11
right? Yeah, yeah,
Matthew Dols 12:13
that’s not true anymore. I mean, it really, I mean, it’s always, it’s always been that way. But it seems like it’s more now because social media and everything
Michael Rowland 12:22
is necessarily more visible. And
Matthew Dols 12:24
yeah, I mean, it’s much more about the cult of personality, and handshakes. And being a good person. And all this kind of stuff is very important to being able to
Michael Rowland 12:34
sell art. And certainly in a small community like this, it seems like a small community. But you know, you get to know one person, you get to know another and pretty soon, you know, the whole gamut of the people that work in the business here in Prague. So yeah, it’s it’s you kind of I was I had an exhibition opportunity it was about two years ago. And a friend of mine was invited along to and I remember thinking this is quite exciting. And it was just an old, abandoned warehouse that some artists had taken over I love old, abandoned warehouse, beautiful, and they’ve taken it over. And they were just doing a pop up show. And she came along to meet along with me, the people who are running it, and I was just excited because it was an opportunity to show some pictures. And when we left after we’ve chatted with with the guide, she was like, I’m not sure. And I was totally surprised that you should not just grab any opportunity. And I really respected that I thought there’s she’s actually stepped back and thought now this isn’t for me. I don’t quite see my pictures there. So it’s about I think it’s about choosing where you want to show something as well, and being sort of in control. So there’s not that beggary sort of beggar liter sort of way of looking at it. Like 334 years ago, I’d shown paintings in cafe galleries and things like this. And I remember getting to the point where I’ve decided not No, not anymore. It’s just I know what it looks like when you see other people’s works in a cafe. And but I didn’t quite look at it that way myself because I was selling some things and thinking this is super, but I judge that even it’s an it’s not nice, but you’re still looking think well not a proper artist. And there’s that element, which is you, you have to say okay, I’ll draw the line there. And I’ll try and show my works here. And if that means two years of not showing anything, then Soviet, you know,
Matthew Dols 14:25
yeah, and I’m pretty much in the middle of that right now. Because really, I got here. And I started showing my work to some galleries and curators, and they were like, yeah, you know, not responding this kind of stuff. Yeah. And everybody I would talk to I was like, I don’t know where I can exhibit my work. And over there plenty of cafe says yeah, and I’m like, Yeah, okay, I’m 45 years old. I have a pretty good CV. I think I make decent work. And my price point is probably higher than the general cafe, coffee shop, exhibition. So don’t think that that fits me. I mean, as much as I know, when you move into a new community, oftentimes Do we sort of have to start at the bottom again, because you, nobody knows you and you have to reprove yourself in this new community. There is a point like when you’re 45 years old, and you got, you know, there’s a certain bottom rung that I’m not willing to go to,
Michael Rowland 15:18
you have to have your standards you have to, and again, it’s faith in yourself. It’s like, it’s interesting that what you do is worth something. And you know, when you do get those marker moments, when you get there, when you sell something for a decent price, or, or you get an exhibition that you wanted, it does give you a little, little, I don’t know, a little route to the strength that you feel you need to have to go into a studio and start messing around like a child.
Matthew Dols 15:45
Okay. Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean, any sort of, I mean, the arts world is rife with negative feedback, you know, knows you’re being denied for things, whatever grants, residencies exhibitions, so the few times that we do get those Yes, moments who you really have to hold on to those or else you’re just going to be crushed. Emotional. Yeah.
Michael Rowland 16:05
And I learned something just not long ago, as well as when those moments happen is like, don’t get overexcited, you know, it’s like you need to carry on, you need to keep it going keep the ball up in the air. Because you know, you can’t live off that for that long,
Matthew Dols 16:19
I made the horrible mistake, which I have only come to realize was such a bad mistake early on in my career, which was my teachers taught me to be stoic, to be very, I’m proud of my work. Don’t question my work, right. And I and unfortunately, I believe that that sort of ended up down the path of arrogance. And that has been horribly to my detriment at this point that I just realized in the past few years that I basically built up this horribly arrogant persona. And I realized that I’ve just got to get rid of that. Because back to your point about relationships, nobody wants to be friends with an Arrogant Bastard. Sure. And I was that Arrogant Bastard. You don’t seem so arrogant? Well, that’s because i’m not i’m working through. I’m doing therapy here. This is my therapy. But like, I made that mistake. And and, you know, through this podcast, through hopefully, people listening to this, like, please don’t fall into the trap of it. being arrogant, is the same as being self confident, because you can be confident in your work without being arrogant. I believe I make good work. But it takes the right person to see it to the right person to appreciate it. So I cannot know and none of us should be
Michael Rowland 17:41
arrogant. Last night, I was at the vernissage of sui tarkowski. It was beautiful. He gave a big talk was like maybe two hours. All of the painters incredible. I’m
Matthew Dols 17:53
glad I missed it actually.
Michael Rowland 17:56
It was one particular point which sort of took home with me. And he was showing this is like a marionette of a Jesus figure on his knees. It was part of the Stations of the Cross that he put together. And he’s a Jewish artist at doing this Jesus figure. And so he, his connection to it was sort of slightly ironic, quite sincere as well. And it and he was doing it for this particular group of people who, I don’t think he’d do that well. But he saw the reactions to this figure. And he saw one person go up to this, this this sort of wooden, loosely put together Marionette and put their hands together and begin they close their eyes and they were weeping, praying and weeping. And he’s looking at this he does quite your Will you show the work? It’s It’s It’s lots of collage, and then sort of cartoony mayhem in it, but really sort of quite mccobb
Matthew Dols 18:55
it’s almost a few it has a sense of sort of almost outsider art. Totally, absolutely. But he’s not. But he’s not an outsider. He, he’s formally trained, and he even taught he sort of like he reverted to that sort of in the later part of his career, he reverted to this more raw kind of exactly what he’s doing every very angry in graduation or outsider.
Michael Rowland 19:17
Totally, that’s a good way of describing it. But it was his genuine sort of humbled surprise that someone would react to an object that he just he put there an object, and it’s just the way it said this and he stepped and looked at them and seen them reacting and I think that you can’t predict and that you can’t be arrogant about I’m going to create something that will make you cry, I’m going to create something that is better than everything everybody else. And you have to go in with that work attitude. I mean, the Andy Warhol’s idea of you know, just just work, and that’s all you can really do. And so to keep yourself getting into the studio, keep your ass in the studio, as Jessica would say is is the key. And that can only be done with love. And if there’s any, you know that if there’s any of that kind of bitterness or anger about the scene, it’s just going to poison the activity. So you have to sort of, I’d say, separate yourself from from that, while you’re in the studio and maybe take the time out, then after you’ve worked for a month or two months, take those weeks out and do the promotional work. Do the do the schmoozing. And, yeah, well, I
Matthew Dols 20:25
mean, that’s an interesting point, because I’ve spoken to some other people and they they said something like, be in the studio three days a week, and then go out and do your public relations. Two days a week. Yeah, I can’t work like that. Like I have to devote time and sort of just work through it. So like, like, I need like, three months in the studio really. And then I and then once that work is all done and that all that creative, whatever is out of me and down on the paper, then I can go out and do three months of public relations.
Michael Rowland 20:58
I think I can relate to that I feel similar because it’s it’s not so nice jumping from laptop to Canvas.
Matthew Dols 21:05
Well, that’s my point is like yeah, these days and this is sort of like this is when I keep talking about like contemporary art market the art world now is these days, we have to keep jumping from idea to idea to thing to thing like we have to jump from our part time job to our public relations or doing our social media then we have to find time to then switch gears and go into be actually creative in the studio. And there’s so many little tasks that we have to do that use different parts of our brain and different parts of our inspiration different parts of our soul. Absolutely. It’s feels like it’s become much more difficult like your your Uncle, uncle. Yeah, it
Michael Rowland 21:42
was an uncle. Yeah, that Yeah,
Matthew Dols 21:43
your uncle He could just sit there and paint all day. They didn’t have cell phones. They didn’t have computers they know he’s a rock he was he was not interrupted by anything. He’s not distracted by anything. He probably just put music on and sat there for eight hours. joyfully, blissfully drawing and painting. Sure. Sure. These days like I you sit in the studio and you’re you’re interrupted by your phone or you’re interrupted by whatever. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 22:07
it back and then start. There’s so many little
Matthew Dols 22:10
diversions and so many different different things we have to do with our time and our brain that it’s really hard to find the time to focus.
Michael Rowland 22:19
Yeah, yeah, there was a there’s a great YouTube TV series, but I don’t know where the TV series came from it I guess it was on BBC or something. And it’s called what artists do all day, it was traced it as as Tracy emin episode, I don’t know if you saw it, I have never seen it sounds great,
Matthew Dols 22:36
though. It’s like,
Michael Rowland 22:36
half hour show. And they were just interviewing her about it. day to day morning tonight. And the majority is promotion, because she has to stay in the business, she has to stay relevant. So even though she might be showing with some of the greatest names in the world, along with their own, it’s all it was the hard slog. So she says she if she gets an hour, in the day, when she can go into the into the studio, she’s happy. And that seems bizarre, doesn’t it? person like that’s kind of the your benchmark the goal, you want to get there. But you’re still going to be at the laptop, you’re still going to be answering email, I
Matthew Dols 23:09
swear I have this old saying that busy begets busy kind of thing. So like, the busier you get, the more you focus on the business of the arts, the more business you’re going to have to do. Yeah. So it’s so it’s, in some ways, it’s it’s a double edged sword, like, the more successful you are, the more successful you need to be.
Michael Rowland 23:28
This is it. And I think I think accepting that you’re going to have to put hard work into it is part of the process. Get it? I think you mentioned a while ago, you use the example of borkowsky, you know that this is lovely, you know, the idea that someone would find you in a pub and say, I love what you’re scribbling onto that napkin, I’ll give you some money.
Matthew Dols 23:48
Because to me, he’s a fascinating man. I mean, he, he worked just menial job, basic income all the time. We’ve worked in a post office for many years, just like just and so he loved it, though, because it did not use any of his creative brain, right? So he could save all of his creativity for when he could get home to his typewriter or writing for you. I don’t know exactly how he did it. But But he so like, sometimes having a lot of people say like, Oh, you should do your creative, you should get a job in the creative industry. And I’m like, well, but that’s going to use all my creativity for somebody else. And that and then I’m not going to have any creative, whatever for the studio. I feel the same. I feel exactly the same. I
Michael Rowland 24:33
had a brief spell in a secondary school and three months. This is not for me. But the art teacher there. This this lady that was teaching the art. I thought that that’s interesting. Maybe I’ll move into that. And I talked to her and I said, What do you do like personally and she said, I’m a sculpt. I said, What are you working on at the moment? She says, I don’t I don’t do any of that. She says when I go home, I look for holidays online. That’s all I do know.
Matthew Dols 25:01
Yeah, I mean, it’s very hard. These days, I mean, with the I work in academia, so like, when I was coming up you going through school and stuff, because I was looking to the tenured professors and the tenure store track things and how professors find a school and they stay at that school for 30 years, even if they’re not tenured, you know, they, but they build a reputation for the school and they stay there for long periods of time. That’s just not very common anymore. Sure. And so that entire sense of security that basically, my 20s and my 30s that I was looking forward to getting in my 40s has gone away. It’s basically like I had a goal and that goal literally has vanished. It’s not available. And yeah,
Michael Rowland 25:47
well, I like the philosophy that we’ve got to invent the next step, invent how to get shown? Well, exactly. And I think this is terrific. The podcast idea is amazing. And I know you’ve been asking the questions about you know, how to apply or preempt your final question, but I have listening and the idea of how to get shown in the bigger galleries or gets shown,
Matthew Dols 26:10
I actually got taken to task on that recently that like badly that I should not be putting the idea of a made earnings a piece in an institution as my purpose for creating art interesting, that I should be thinking, just focusing more on just purely making my own art and being happy, rather than trying to seek out fame and glory. And all this
Michael Rowland 26:36
still an interesting question.
Matthew Dols 26:37
Well, that’s my point. Yeah, I mean, don’t get me wrong. The reason for including that in the podcast is just to create something that’s a quantifiable thing that basically, the listeners can follow along.
Michael Rowland 26:49
In the moment,
Matthew Dols 26:50
right? That’s the idea. Yeah, the idea is, is that the idea was like to try and engage the listeners basically, a little bit more on a personal level. And soon, what I’m going to do is I’m going to start adding on little, like maybe 20 minute, separate podcast throughout the week, where basically, I’ll just sit with a microphone and tell you what I’ve done. Like, what, what recommendations were given to me and what I have actually done. So they were able to keep it up involved in it and learn from my successes and my failures and my fears and my concerns, you know, things like, I sent an email to this curator, and it’s been three weeks, and I haven’t responded, you know, like, why is my work that bad, you know, the anxieties that that creates in me like so, you know, I’ll be very vulnerable and open with this. Because that vulnerability is the is the thing that I feel like a lot of people don’t talk about in the art world, right? We’re all literally like hanging our hearts and our souls out for people, and they can just crush them if they want to show and this is everybody, not just artists, but I mean, gallerists curators, I mean, when a curator puts in two years of their life into putting together a show, and then the show opens up and they get like these horrible reviews and nobody shows up for it is yeah, soul crushing.
Michael Rowland 28:05
I made the decision not to continue as a critic for the Fringe Festival here that I did it for two or three years. And but I would only choose plays that I knew were going to be good, like things that had previously been marked five stars, so I could write something nice.
Matthew Dols 28:25
That’s part of the problem is is that people are only writing nice things.
Michael Rowland 28:29
Well, the this is it that the show came up that was impossible to write something nice about it was it was dreadful. took me by surprise. But if you don’t, don’t want to write about it, like because I wasn’t going to write anything horrible and have them read it the next day, and then meet them in the bar, you know, the next night. So but if you’re going to choose that, you have to contact them and tell them you’re not going to give a review, which again is part breaking. I thought that’s not my job. That’s not for me to say this is awful. So that, but I guess that it’s part of the the neck that brass neck you need to build, isn’t it to read to know that there’s going to be people who will say, say outright, now that’s bad, or I don’t like it. Well, this actually, I take that back, there’s nobody in the business generally tells you that it’s bad. They’ll just tell you this is not for us.
Matthew Dols 29:17
And that’s right. And this is one of my pet peeves about the arts industry. Maybe this happens in other industries, but I’ve only I only work in the arts industry in academia. So that’s all I know. For instance, if you apply for a grant, the answer is yes. Or no. You apply for a residency, right? Yes or no. You submit work to a gallery? Yes or no? You go to a curator yes or no. The problem is the nose because they don’t tell you what you did wrong. I would love for people to start giving some amount of critical feedback so that like when I submit a grant, and I don’t get the grant, what did I do wrong? Nobody ever tells you what you did wrong. Yeah. So how are we supposed to get better? How are we supposed to learn? How are we supposed to even know what our mistakes are, in order to learn from them?
Michael Rowland 30:10
It was an Italian friend of mine who was in London, and he wanted to get into St. Martin’s. And they turned him down. First time, he hadn’t gone through the proper avenues, and they’ve just gone to them and shown us stuff. And they’re like, why the hell are you bothering us? You know. And he used to go to the lectures like uninvited, you know, he wasn’t part of the school, but he go to the lectures, and that’s great. He just stuck to it. His stuff, wasn’t there kind of stuff. So what he did was he observed and had a look what kind of stuff they did and adjusted accordingly. And they, they denied him entry the next time as well. And the third time he applied, they said, Oh, go on, let him in. Because he had actually that they’d said, okay, your work has actually developed, you’ve gotten better. But I don’t think they’ve given him any pointers. He just looked at what they were accepting.
Matthew Dols 31:01
That that doesn’t excite me, because that means like, tailor your work literally tailor what you do. I guess he was 19 years old. So maybe he was quite flexible. Maybe that’s, for me, that’s a little too flexible. I mean, how old? Are you?
Michael Rowland 31:17
48. Okay, I’m
Matthew Dols 31:18
45. We’re sort of in the same area. I’m not going to change. I’m not going to change what I do. I’m not going to change the style of work that I make. I’m 45 years old. I’m working in the same sort of style for at least two decades at this point, right. So it’s basically either people like my work, they don’t at this point, there’s no, there’s no Well, I can change to fit their market.
Michael Rowland 31:39
Yeah, no, it’s an awful idea. Yeah.
Matthew Dols 31:41
I mean, when you’re young, maybe, but even still, the sooner or later, there’s going to be some snap. I mean, part of that is the the nature of the artists need to find an authentic voice. No matter what your influences are. I mean, I have some great influences people that I absolutely adore. Now, it has nothing to do with my work. Yeah. But I love their work, right. So there’s a difference between being inspired by or being appreciative of, or have high respect for and what you do. So like, I, you know, the people that I that I love, like, Don’t make anything like what I make, but you’ve got to be influenced by somebody. Yeah, but just don’t make it. So you look like you’re copying them?
Michael Rowland 32:23
Absolutely. Yeah,
Matthew Dols 32:24
you need to find that personal, authentic. I call it actually the there’s shit, there’s a visual authorship.
Michael Rowland 32:32
And this is when you’ve got a distinct style. Yeah, you mean? Yeah. Well, I
Matthew Dols 32:35
like an author, like who writes a book or something like that, like they have an author’s voice, you know, their voice, no matter what book is the
Michael Rowland 32:42
most difficult thing in the world to really find, isn’t it in the first place, but it’s the thing we all need? Absolutely. I was lucky enough yesterday to go and visit. Have you heard of Clara said Lo, local artist. She’s absolutely fantastic. And she’s she actually must be I don’t know, 2526. And she’s got a really distinct voice. It’s just you recognize her painting a mile off? glossy, sort of cute but evil at the same time. fantastic work. And she she’s so young, like, I definitely did not have a voice at that point. I mean, I obviously did, I didn’t know how to translate it to a canvas or a page. And I think it’s, it’s only in the last 510 years that things have started coming together where I thought, oh, there’s this there is something which combines everything I do, because I jumped from, from lots of different things, from from oil, to acrylic to Canvas to paper to writing to. And then you start to see there is a thread. And it was it’s some of the artists and her guy who I think you spoke, you spoke to us this week, he made me he actually had me recognize something which I hadn’t seen, because it’s when you work in in your studio, and you’ve got everything cluttered, until you actually have it in a large space and you see it together, you miss some of the things because you’ll go through a period of doing a certain type of work for say, three, four or five months, even a year. And then you shift, you know, you move on to a different project. And you think maybe I’m saying something different, but you’re really not, you know, sometimes you they’re directly connected, they could look completely different. But the subject matter is really there. You’re still there, and it’s difficult for yourself to see it until you get to show it to other people.
Matthew Dols 34:31
Yeah, I was talking to somebody a couple years ago about how to construct your website. Oh, actually, I remember who it was. It was Mary Virginia Swanson. She’s this lady in the United States that does these. She’ll help sort of aspiring photographers in particular, and she was trying to help on how to redesign my website. And one of the things that she said was, when you’re putting your series of works that you’ve done over your lifetime, there should be a common thread that. So if somebody looked at your work from 2000, then looked at your work from 2005, that they can literally follow a line, they can see the process and the progress of building on more or less the same idea. So they’re and throughout your entire career, and the more effectively you can create somehow through like a written statement or whatever, however you do it. The idea that there is a common thread through no matter what discipline you work in, or medium you work in, or you know, scale or whatever, that you can see that thread through your whole career, the more curators and galleries like that idea, because that way they, there’s a foundational story of you as an artist, that no matter what you’d end up doing in the future, they’ll still know that that’s that common thread through your work.
Michael Rowland 35:51
And absolutely, totally, I’ve worked very instinctively for a long time without much deliberation to the images that I’m going to produce. And so it always feels like I wasn’t in control of that thread. And I think recently, I’ve just noticed that that thread was there. And it’s, it’s, it’s come to me in strange ways, like in really weird connections. And I’ve seen that even my paintings have quite different it would the subject matter was the same.
Matthew Dols 36:23
What’s your thread?
Michael Rowland 36:24
Well, I suppose a way of explaining it right now is about three months ago. I just completed writing this novel, and one of the characters through all the characters in the six characters based on characters mentioned by TS Eliot in his wasteland, and one of the characters is mme so stress the clairvoyant
Matthew Dols 36:45
Did you tell me about this already?
Michael Rowland 36:47
I might have the sound we might have. The exhibition,
Matthew Dols 36:51
okay. Sounds very familiar. I’m like, I tell you there is somebody else who did when I mentioned
Michael Rowland 36:55
it, yeah, he had he was talking about it. Okay. Yeah. Cuz he was asking me how it was going how the book was going on, like the second draft, so I’m in that, but this clairvoyant, so I just wanted to steal some words from online, online. divinity sources, you know, and so YouTube, some people who read the Tarot. And I was looking at the cards thinking I want a pack it I was just, it was two weeks before my birthday. So I asked my flatmate for one, and friend got me one. So I had a couple of packs already and, and I’m obsessed with it. Already. I’ve got eight packs, now. It’s only been a few months. And what are notable ones out there these days are incredible. I just got the viscounty pack plastic yesterday. And it’s beautiful. That was like the oldest known complete Tarot pack that they know about. So I’ve been learning the Thoth pack the Crowley pack, but what it’s what it brought to light was that you can have this image, and it can look completely random at first, and you can instinctively have an idea of what the card might mean. But then when you look into it, there is a structure there is a reason for each image. Now I’ve worked a lot with no reason for the imagery, I just, I really wanted it to be like automatic writing or streams of consciousness. And if anyone’s inspired the paintings, it’s it’s it’s people like William Carlos Williams, or James Joyce, and I always figured you don’t need to be explaining everything, I’ll just let it out. What I have discovered in the last year or so, if you just go in with one concept, one idea, a word, it’s going to tighten that picture so much. And and, and it’s really working for me. So this link between the way the Tarot work is it is I’ve seen it as a thread through everything I’ve done that now that’s sort of coincidental, because the thread was there already. But I started to realize that there were certain things that themes that I did want to speak about, or write or paint about, and write, and now they’re more visible. And now I’m a lot more confident going into the canvas. Because there’s deliberate things to say deliberate things to talk about. And it’s, it’s actually making it more fun.
Matthew Dols 39:14
You are now living in Prague, and you have a studio here in the outskirts of Prague. And so the big question, of course, that everybody wants to know about artists is, you know, are you making a living from your art because of course, this is all of ours. Great desires to be able to do that. Have you been able to do that here? No. Easy, okay.
Michael Rowland 39:38
Moving on, not yet. Yes.
Matthew Dols 39:43
What have you do you have a gallery that you exhibit with?
Michael Rowland 39:46
No, I don’t know. But that’s I basically about two years ago, gave myself a five year plan. And I’ve been sort of heading in the direction of finding the finding the gallerist finding someone to be interested and showing myself really just putting myself out there. So this is sort of like, you call it like a beginning process. I’ve been painting for a long time. But as for wanting to make my mark in Prague, it’s been about meeting people and working with a group I told you about this last collective. There’s there’s four of us, Andy Allen, Erica, Danielle and, and jobaline. And we’ve we put on group shows. So we’ve we’ve had pop up shows a couple of us have shown in Gambit gallery, the exhibitions come up quite sporadically. So I’ve not got to the point where I can make a living from it. And some of the exhibitions have been quite conceptual. So you can’t really sell that stuff. I found that when I’ve sold it, again, it’s sort of up and down. But when I set I’ve sold in a open studio, which I’d recommend to everyone to do, because that’s a super thing to do. And I’ve sold it at the openings of exhibitions. And then it’s been sporadic where people have just said, I saw the stuff on the website, and we want to buy this, which is a great question actually about using the use of social media, has it been successful for you in some ways?
Matthew Dols 41:12
My big thing is, of course, social media is a great public relations thing as far as simply creating a brand and using it as a marketing tool. But the question is, does it actually have some quantifiable? So like, have you posted an image and you got a sale? Or you posted an image? And you got an exhibition? So is there quantifiable results that you could put point A to B to see from us the amount of time and energy that you put into social media?
Michael Rowland 41:40
Yes, there is. Yeah. So definitely from posting images that have been on the website, sharing things that I’ll do updates on processes in Instagram, I’d say the last thing that was successful was posting something on Instagram, the person went to the website, and then contacted me and said they wanted it for that new apartment. So that was that was a direct link to something which sometimes feels like a slog, but actually, I quite enjoy using Instagram more than anything else, really, because the response seems better on that than than certainly the website and even Facebook.
Matthew Dols 42:16
Oh, yeah, these days, Instagram is the primary one for visual arts, for sure.
Michael Rowland 42:20
But what’s lovely as well as people tend to search through Instagram, and they see that certain galleries are following people or certain artists or following people. And once you’ve got those connections, Instagram offers up, if you know this person, then you might like this person. And I’ve certainly found lots of interesting things through that, and people have been finding me. So occasionally, you’ll get a light from someone you really respect. And you get a little boost from that, you know, and I think that that feels that feels valuable. And then you’ve actually got an end so you can write to them and say, Thanks for thanks for the support. And, and I’ve met a couple of people through Instagram that way that have been sort of key people in, in the business here in Prague.
Matthew Dols 43:04
And is that your goal to be exhibiting in other countries?
Michael Rowland 43:08
I’m not I’m going to start Look, I’m going to start looking into exhibiting in other countries right now. I’m totally focused on Prague. So the inspirations here, I don’t I don’t intend to move away from Prague anytime soon. So I really would like to sort of focus on this market and the people that I could work with here, because there seems to be lots of lovely people to work with. So I’d like to hang around, see what happens and then start pushing things abroad. I mean, there’s websites as well, there’s certain things like Saatchi that you can sell through, I have friends who do really well off it, you know, really, yeah, I put some things on it a couple of years ago, and I just haven’t added to it since two years ago, but my friend is selling regularly from there. And he does quite well.
Matthew Dols 43:55
Okay, well, I’ll I want to know a little bit more about that, what medium and price point because I believe the whole buying via the internet without seeing it in a physical reality kind of thing. I believe there’s a price point that people are willing to do that. And I believe over that price point unless their reputation precedes them, that kind of thing. And sort of newer or emerging artists, there’s only a certain price point we can sell
Michael Rowland 44:21
online. Right? I see
Matthew Dols 44:24
over that price point people simply won’t buy online until you get to a certain reputation level. And then of course, people will buy in any way they can possibly buy because of your reputation. Is that good? Yeah. So what medium does this friend of yours work in?
Michael Rowland 44:38
oils? Okay, the oil patch oil on canvas, and they’re quite large paintings. And then once it’s sold, he has to package the thing and they’ll send it abroad from anywhere in the world basically,
Matthew Dols 44:49
do you know his approximate price point for these?
Michael Rowland 44:53
I get it. I guess it’s quite pricey that I suppose it’s between 30 and 130,000 grounds.
Matthew Dols 45:00
30,000 to 100,000 a crown crown. Okay. Okay, because I’m thinking like pounds or dollars or euros. I’m like, Oh my God, that’s a lot of money. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 45:11
we’re not there yet.
Matthew Dols 45:14
crowns. Okay. Yeah, so that’s 100,000 crowns would be $5,000.
Michael Rowland 45:21
Yeah, I guess. Yeah, something like that.
Matthew Dols 45:23
Yeah, that’s still the price point he that I’m talking about? Because Because understanding Saatchi also takes a percentage of that as well. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I’m fascinated with this whole website internet selling, because it seems like it’s getting more popular in some ways.
Michael Rowland 45:40
But it’s also what you were saying before about the work that you have to put into it, that sort of this times, it’s time consuming. And it’s also you just I depresses me a bit going through that process. And it’s just boring. You know, it’s it’s literally a boring thing to do. And I’m huffing while I’m doing it, which is shame. But I think if I could get to the point where the balance was where I did do what we were saying, do two months in the studio, and then take one week, two weeks, three weeks, where it was just promotion, concentrate on that. Forget the studio. Oh, no, what I really want
Matthew Dols 46:13
is I want to be in the studio all the time. And I want to have an assistant that does all that other work for me.
Michael Rowland 46:19
This is all you can think of isn’t it when you’re on the light doing this work anything is someone should be doing this for me.
Matthew Dols 46:24
Every time I’m editing this podcast, I’m like, I can get an intern to do this for me, why am I spending my time doing this but but it’s even the same with you know, submitting your work to Saatchi, like it’s just monotonous and Sibley me You’re just putting in dimensions and keywords and all this stuff. And they get it gets old, like I put some work on Saatchi. And I actually had a problem with it. Because when I submitted my photographs on there, the color space was all wrong. And so on my monitor, it looked stunning, but when I put it on their website, all the colors shifted to a completely different set of palette, like completely different. And it was my own fault because I didn’t set my images to RGB they were CMI K, when I because I was printing them physically on paper or inkjet printing, which is CMK process. But when I submitted those CNY key images onto a website, which is RGB based, all the colors got tweaked. And it took me like three hours to figure out like, Oh, my God, why are my images like looking like shit on this website? Right? I’ve finally figured it out. And it’s these stupid little technical things that we have to spend so much time, you know, I mean, between social media and trying to put our stuff on suchy and trying to build our put our own build our own websites,
Michael Rowland 47:39
right, I’d like to put the larger paintings that I do you want to search, I think there might be quite popular, but the idea of boxing it and sending it off puts me off. It’s such a drag.
Matthew Dols 47:53
But then I should get over you on site to yourself. I put like two pieces on Saatchi. And then I just got so annoyed with it. It’s just so tedious. And, and working with them. Because my the images I was trying to submit to them are so color specific that I was having such problems making it so they look like if you saw the actual print, it’s rich and vibrant and saturated. If you looked on the website, it looks like this flat muddy mess, right. And I couldn’t I mean, I re uploaded it numerous times and making changes everything. It’s still never looked good. And I don’t know what settings they have on their website that sort of made it all wacky. But I could never get it to look right inside. Sorry, gave up. Yeah. But and there’s so many of these things. And this is another thing, there are so many websites in the world that say come sell through us, you know, so then we as creative people were like, Oh great, another opportunity to make money. That’s fabulous. And we have to spend hours, even just researching these websites to say, are they legitimate? Do they actually pay, what are their percentages, etc, etc. And then deciding which ones we want to be on. And then once we do decide we have to continually update them, we have to maintain that we have to continually put new works on them. Because they have algorithms in them just like social media has. And so like if you’re not active on the site, they’re not going to show your work first. Right. And so it’s it’s this just constant sort of slog of the top of
Michael Rowland 49:27
it. You needed an assistant, we all
Matthew Dols 49:29
mean someone like an intern or an assistant but you know, we can’t get those very easily. But but it’s it’s this it’s this other side of our brain. Yeah, I mean, we got into the creative industry because we didn’t want to get into the business industry. And yet now we have to spend all of our time and energy doing the business. Yeah, when in the past it was we could hand that off to a gallerist and the gallerist would do that work for us if we were good enough to be represented by a gallery. But now oftentimes, the gallery salaries aren’t doing that very much like they don’t do the promotion work. Yeah, they’re not going to then submit your work to Saatchi basically. Because like, then that’s, that’s less percentage they get some, which makes sense. But I just feel like these days with the sheer volume of outlets and ways to sell your work that our time and our energy is so diversified that we can’t do any of them. Well,
Michael Rowland 50:29
yeah, yeah. I suppose I suppose the key that one of the key things is to show the work first. So it’s it’s two? Well, the first thing is make good stuff. And the second is to show it. And I guess, if you’re putting it on Instagram, put it on Facebook, like Claire on Facebook. Just yesterday, she posted it on Facebook, two days ago, yesterday, she got a call from the manager of Czech Television, who said I like the picture on Facebook, can I have it, like seven minute discussion on the phone? And so that was just from a post on Facebook? That’s that’s not such serious promotion? Not too much legwork? You know,
Matthew Dols 51:11
well, but Okay, sure. That one did. But how about the 30 previous post that she put up that didn’t get that? So
Michael Rowland 51:20
we have consistency? Isn’t the thing doing it?
Matthew Dols 51:22
Yeah, I mean, we have we as creative people who really just want to be making our creative outlets end up having to spend a ton of time doing all this other stuff, this business of which held was probably always there, and just never spoken up. Yeah. And it feels like Now, a lot more of that burden has been placed on the shoulder of the artist than in the past. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 51:48
I think this is this is where it’s good to either join or join a collective Creative Collective, or work with other people. And then there’s, I think there’s the weight is taken off a little, because one, you’re sharing the load. And until you got inspiration from from your colleagues, this seemed that that that was an important part, I think of my development A few years ago, was not just thinking you can do it alone. And then actually, not literally asking for help, but Well, yeah, ask him for help, you know, and having other people going
Matthew Dols 52:26
back to our begging thing from earlier. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 52:29
I mean, it. It’s not really begging, though, is it if once you’ve sort of made a connection with people, and you kind of you also take on, you know, a lot of the responsibilities so you’re sharing ideas and sharing the load, and you’re sharing that who’s sending things to places that the proposals and writing the proposals at least you’re not doing it alone, I think it’s tough to do it alone. So that would be some advice for me as work with other people joint collaboration seems to be the key at the moment. Which have you worked with people, you’re gonna collaborate with me making boxes? boxes,
Matthew Dols 53:07
that’s, well, that’s not collaborate.
Michael Rowland 53:09
It’s not an objectively collaborative.
Matthew Dols 53:11
You know, that’s, I mean, I’ve done my fair share of collaborations in the past, and they’re very hit and miss. You know, when it goes, Oh, yeah. And it goes really, really well. It’s fabulous. Like, yeah, I’ve had some friends, Tim and Shawn in the United States, like when we collaborated, it’s been really great, because we’re sort of have the same idea, same mindset stuff. But I’ve collaborated with some other people that have been utterly failure, miserable, like, like, turned me off to doing collaborations for decades before.
Michael Rowland 53:38
You gotta try sort of, like, test the waters and see if it works. And it’s the same as anything, there’s some paintings you’re gonna do that aren’t working, there’s some people you meet, who are it’s not gonna work. And then if you do for if you’re lucky enough to find that connection, and someone that’s, you know, you click with, then I don’t know, that’s, that’s golden. That’s
Matthew Dols 53:56
where this idea of like community and having other people this sort of reminds me of earlier, you started talking about your work. And then one thing that I thought about that I didn’t get to ask you about is artist statements. Yeah. Do you write them?
Michael Rowland 54:10
Yes. Yeah, I’ve written dozens. Hundreds, probably. Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s, there’s an art to it. And I don’t know if I’m good at it. But
Matthew Dols 54:21
and part of my point, going back to the the conversation about, like, constantly getting rejections and getting nose and you don’t get feedback. So I would love it, if someplace that I submitted some work to with an artist statement in it. And they would say, Oh, well, your artists, they would give me some feedback, say, well, your artist statement, wasn’t cohesive with the images or didn’t feel like it was good, whatever, like, you know, give me some some feedback so that I can do better. Because all of us were visual artists. We know how to make visual arts. There’s no question about that. So like your skill level and making a good painting, no question. Yeah, your skill level and writing about your painting. We weren’t taught that.
Michael Rowland 54:57
There’s a fine line as well as in the between no Not talking bullshit and then just sounding on educated. So it needs to be a fine line between the two. It’s like the old expression Don’t talk like you’re right and the right like your talk. You know, it’s I write just like I talk, right? Yeah,
Matthew Dols 55:14
I do. And it’s horrible. I use commas far too much. According to my father, really. I use commas everywhere where I should use periods.
Michael Rowland 55:22
I it’s my it’s my least favorite thing to do is write in a couple of sentences, what you’ve just done, because I could I could write well, reams of pages about what I’ve done. You know, you could talk for days about what you’ve done. And then to put into a paragraph, and I’ve seen people describe their stuff in a sentence. I’m like, just that one sentence. That’s all I want. Just something like that. Really simple. You know, people have described their workers, you know, it’s like, punk comic fiction.
Matthew Dols 55:51
Oh, I would not want you like, I would never write a thing that that there’s that sort of narrow? I mean, you need more. The idea, the whole idea of having an elevator pitch.
Michael Rowland 56:02
You need the elevator pitch. Yeah. So
Matthew Dols 56:04
I mean, like, you know, a 32nd little thing of like, explaining work in 30 seconds, I
Michael Rowland 56:08
would say that’s one of the most important things, because there’s so many opportunities, I think are fluffed, just because someone said what you do, and the and you know, this is a good opportunity. And you I don’t know, I do believe this bit of that I do a bit of everything. And every, so many people say that just one line, just a pitch, a simple thing. And I think that’s something as well as working on becoming a better artist that you really need to work on your pitch. And it doesn’t have to be a lot. And it’s, I think you find that pitch through the story. And it has to be that that seems to be one of the most important words in the business at the moment is, is have a story. And if you can hook someone with that story in a sentence, just it’s about this, or it’s influenced by this or
Matthew Dols 56:57
to see the I’m finding because again, like I do online reviews, I’m reading portfolio right artist statements literally hundreds a week. Yeah. And they’re bad, like many of them are quite horrible. But yeah, I mean, I want to what I’m generally looking for and what I tried to do in my own writing, which again, I fail probably miserably at it as well. But I try to emotionally involve the viewer, you want to hook them in. You want to get them engaged in the work in some way. Yeah, so like, but when I was in school, when I was in school, my professors I remember telling me start your artist statement with a quote, Latin quotes are often the best. Like if I did an artist statement, starting with a Latin word, now, people would just be like, Fuck you. Yeah, you pompous bitch. Absolutely. Immediately. Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing is, like, I read a lot of the statements are either underdeveloped, like they’re, they don’t actually know what they’re doing yet. So like, they haven’t personally realized what they’re expressing, or way overly intellectually, academically pompous, where they’re like, quoting, like, Oh, I did this because of contian and Freudian, and what am Plato’s cave and like,
Michael Rowland 58:17
the recommendation is not to mention anybody else and assume that the person doesn’t know the people you’re talking about.
Matthew Dols 58:23
Well, that’s the problem is like, I will read a lot of artist statements and people will be quoting, like, Oh, this is from so and so philosopher, and I’m like, Who the fuck is that? Yeah. I don’t know who this person is. And I keep telling people when in these reviews, I’m like, Don’t tell me about things that don’t know because you all you’re doing is making your sounds yourself sound intelligent, and you’re making me feel stupid, right? And that’s never good, because now I feel stupid. And I don’t like your work. Because your work now makes me feel stupid.
Michael Rowland 58:48
It’s amazing how some of the really simple things can work as well. You just you know that? What was the who’s the singer songwriter? Who’s slightly crazy that that Kurt Cobain liked?
Matthew Dols 59:02
Oh, Daniel Johnston, Daniel Johnston. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 59:04
I love him. And his sincerity is his honesty when he was first on MTV. Remember that clip? And he’s like, I work in McDonald’s. And I’ve done this tape and it was just like, there was no pretension and I was hooked and interested Who the hell would tell someone I want to be a pop star and I work at McDonald’s. Oh, he’s
Matthew Dols 59:23
a great he’s there’s a movie about him. Johnson is great. Yeah, he’s like, I love him because of his pure innocence and purity. He he must make music. Yeah, that’s it. Like he has no reason. He has no rhyme. He’s not in it for money. He’s not in it for anything. He just feels the need to produce it. Yeah, that’s it. I love that. It’s a great purity and innocence to it that most of us like, I’m personally getting more jaded. The longer I’m in the industry, like we get more jaded and pissy and cranky. And that’s sad. I don’t want that?
Michael Rowland 1:00:01
We’ll try and get that out of you. I’m trying. We’ll try and help.
Matthew Dols 1:00:07
I just moved from the Middle East,
Michael Rowland 1:00:08
Would you like another cup of tea? Now? that’s gonna help.
Matthew Dols 1:00:13
Yeah, artist statements are tough though. Like, I mean, but because they’re, they’re a necessary evil these days. I mean, here I’ll give you a perfect sort of lead back through an artist statement could be interpreted now as hashtags on Instagram, right? So being in the same way that writing an eloquent, cohesive statement is important to accompany working for a gallery or an exhibition. curating and creating and writing in the appropriate hashtags on Instagram is equally as important.
Michael Rowland 1:00:48
You Who are you speaking to I listened to our last podcast with the the guy from the gallery on an MST republiky Ls No. Cleanup? Yeah, the cleanup gallery. Yep. That was terrific. And he was it was interesting. He, he was saying that, yes, sometimes people will come with a portfolio and say a statement or something or email. But this really isn’t the sort of the way and he was saying he’ll he’ll scroll he’ll he’ll be scrolling through Instagram, and something will pop up a friend of a friend or someone who knows somebody. And so yeah, you might have a point there that the hashtags. That’s all you’ve got to really grab someone’s attention aside from the image?
Matthew Dols 1:01:29
Well, I find that like, what if you actually write an artist statement under your image on Instagram? Yeah, nobody fucking cares. Sure, that’s too much to read. Well, it’s too much to read and be it’s unsearchable. Like some people can’t find you.
Michael Rowland 1:01:42
They’re only gonna see it for that one picture that you Yeah. So it’s every picture
Matthew Dols 1:01:46
what it means. So unless you sit there and go through your artist statement and put a little hashtag in front of important words in your artist statement, in the statement itself is useless. Because of course, the algorithm monkey who can’t be searched by just words, you have to put a little hashtag in front of it, in order for it to be searchable. So you have to create those hashtags, which become the thing that is the reason why people find your work, and therefore get involved emotionally involved, emotionally connected to your work, right, which is basically the idea of an artist statement.
Michael Rowland 1:02:16
Yeah. And who’s, who is asking for artist statements these days? I think there’s still proposals when you when you’re doing a an official proposal for a space to try and get the space. They’re still asking for. was speaking in your statement. Speaking of that
Matthew Dols 1:02:32
we haven’t actually talked about so do you apply for grants? Do you do residencies? Like what kind of other creative outlets type of things do you work
Michael Rowland 1:02:40
on? I’m looking for residencies at the moment. I’ve never done one. And it seems to have been very beneficial to friends of mine. So that is a next step. For me.
Matthew Dols 1:02:50
Well, you now have the ability to leave easily and come back here. You’re living on your own. Exactly. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 1:02:55
free. Exactly. So yeah, the fool can jump off into into the void now and test the waters. Yeah.
Matthew Dols 1:03:04
And grant, do you apply for grants?
Michael Rowland 1:03:06
I don’t. But I’m constantly being told that there’s a lot of money in the EU for work. So I think the reason I haven’t, is because I don’t think I’ve had a convincing project that I could say was, this is the reason to give me some money. But I think that’s changing quickly.
Matthew Dols 1:03:27
It’s tough. Like, I mean, I keep looking at residencies. And because I would love to go do a residency and I’m pretty sure my wife would be happy for me to not be around the house for a while. So I’m, I’m looking at them, and they keep wanting very specific things. Yeah. Like I’ve looked at some of the Oh, we’re all about ecological uses in the arts. And I’m like, I don’t do that. So I’m quite specific, or like, or like, Oh, we want you to come and like be part of the community and make some art relevant to the community and like, No, no, what I want is a residency where basically, I go somewhere, I have time, I have space, and you leave me alone, so that I can just make my work. Yeah, there’s this I have this feeling that a lot of the people that have money or have things that are opportunities, they sort of put their own agendas on whatever they are willing to fund or help. And so I want those pure again, like back to your uncle like I want that pure basically space to be have time to think to time to be away. Time to have resources and simply produce the work. I mean, I’m sitting I’ve got at prints at home that are two and a half meters tall by one meter wide that I’ve been waiting to work on for almost two years now. And my studio is not big enough. So I need I simply just need a big studio. I just need somebody to give me a big studio
Michael Rowland 1:04:56
show. Have you been looking around town for nothing in town?
Matthew Dols 1:05:00
Are you kidding?
Michael Rowland 1:05:01
No expensive, isn’t it?
Matthew Dols 1:05:03
The prices of Studios here are ridiculous. And I looked at Prague, Africa, and like, that’s the same price I pay for rent for my apartment.
Michael Rowland 1:05:13
Not paying that. No, not unless you get to live there.
Matthew Dols 1:05:16
My wife wouldn’t let me she would be happy. No, no, but no, I’ve been very lucky. I have a landlord that is very supportive of the arts. Actually, he’s a bit of an art collector himself. And he’s been very supportive and helpful. He actually let me rent the garage that’s attached to our apartment. Right? So I have this nice little two car garage for a very, very reasonable price.
Michael Rowland 1:05:35
Yeah, this place is cheap.
Matthew Dols 1:05:40
Do you have any projects going on? Or what? What’s going on for your sort of planned future stuff? So that, you know, what are the things that you’re trying to do to be proactive in your career?
Michael Rowland 1:05:50
on this, I suppose three levels, the personal level, where I’m doing a doing a series of my own oil paintings, which is sort of a continuing thing, but I’m doing a project which was it’s called the 333 project. I did 333 paintings, and 333 days and posted those every day. 20 by 20.
Matthew Dols 1:06:12
Okay, yeah, I’m just taking on much bigger. I’m like, not like these guys
Michael Rowland 1:06:15
know. And then I did 33 videos and 33 weeks. So again, it was that was a nice experiment. And I think that’s a lovely thing to do is step outside your comfort zone and do something you’re not, you don’t know how to do. You know, it was fun. I was doing stop motion. It was great fun. Yeah, much as much as it might cost.
Matthew Dols 1:06:35
Yeah, I’m stepping out of my comfort zone and doing this podcast, but it’s
Michael Rowland 1:06:38
really adding to your arsenal of weapons and how you can work,
Matthew Dols 1:06:43
I have learned a lot. So far, I’ve done I think, I don’t even know where we are at almost 20 conversations now. And I have actually learned a lot things that I was unaware of, or didn’t realize how important they are. And I think the big thing is, is the shifts that have changed that have happened in the industry. So I was very active in the beginning of my career. And then at a certain point, I sort of dropped out a little bit, I moved to an area that was very rural, and then I moved to the Middle East. And for various reasons, I couldn’t be very participatory there. And so like for more than 10 years, I have not been able to participate in the the arts industry vary as much as I would have liked. And it’s changed dramatically. And it’s these little nuances of these subtle changes that I’m learning a lot about, yeah, that I had no idea
Michael Rowland 1:07:41
what this is. It’s lovely learning new techniques, new skills getting in, I certainly learned a lot working with. I mean, it was it was claymation I was doing animation, but they were all very quickly, botched together. But two of them have now been in the film festival. There’s some like Short Film Festival last two years. So I’m inspired to do a little bit better next time. There’s like, so I was accepted. I was very pleased with that. That’s a great festival. So it gets shown in Bo ocho. So yeah, that, that felt good. And the next part of the project is, so I’ve got staying in line with the three is three books in three years. And so I finished just finished a short novel, which I’m working on now. And that so next year, I really want to make my own Tarot pack. So I might do this in collaboration with another friend of mine who’s who’s working in collaboration with me, as we work as the old art society. We started this about a year ago, shantelle goldthwaite. in California. She’s been over here with the becoming artist group, who she works with as well. And that’s the Jessica suresnes group. And we started this thing together. So we’ve we’ve got a website, Facebook page, where we’ve been collaborating with people from all over the world to do videos, and we’ve got seven people together, we’ve got a proposal for an exhibition called threshold Prague, which we’re going to start pushing to the galleries and try and find a place to show it. And again, this is the this is just the inspiration from a collaboration from someone else. This is even from the other side of the pond, you know, and we just give each other I think, a lot of great motivation.
Matthew Dols 1:09:21
I just love your turn of phrase other side of the pond. It’s very endearing. Okay, actually, and I have a question that because you just talked about how you’re working in different media’s and different study techniques and different practices. When I was young, you know, way back when in the day that my professors and the the industry as a whole at the time was very much focused on Choose one thing and become masterful of it. It seems to me looking around your studio and hearing you talk that you work in lots of different media sort of based on your own inspirations and your Their own ideas. Do you find that that’s beneficial or detrimental? Or somewhere in the middle?
Michael Rowland 1:10:05
It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a bit of both, which isn’t really an answer. But I’d say it’s beneficial for me. Because philosophically speaking, psychologically speaking, I can, I can express myself any way I want. I don’t feel any pressure to do anything specific. But it I mean, I’ve seen people stick to one thing, and they’ve done it since they left college, and it’s been successful for them. So you’ve seen them, you know, get higher, and they’ve developed as well, you know, they’ve changed styles in certain ways. But they did stick to a certain thing, which, which I never really knew what it was gonna be. I even wanted to just do mute music when when I was in, like high school to college. I wanted to be Bob Dylan, you know,
Matthew Dols 1:10:47
I tried to be in a band. I was horrible, right? Ironically, I was a drummer, and I can’t keep up with them to save my life. So I don’t know why. It was just because it was that detrimental. It was just getting angrier anger out and it was loud. So like, I just enjoyed that. Yeah, yeah. But I couldn’t keep rhythm at all. And it was really horrible. So
Michael Rowland 1:11:07
I do pride myself on not having one particular thing that I need to stick within that I’m free enough because I mean, there’s some conceptual stuff in here, you can see this the stuff that was done, like hammering things to a bed, there, there’s the book, dangling from the wall as these cardboard, you do know, this is a past, as
Matthew Dols 1:11:25
you can see these things.
Michael Rowland 1:11:26
Now, I’m not gonna try and describe them, and paintings and things. I ultimately I obviously think it’s beneficial because I keep keep on doing it.
Matthew Dols 1:11:36
I know plenty of artists that work in multiple mediums in Africa, I had a conversation with a guy recently who he’s known as a sculptor, his sculptures, exhibiting in dogs and exhibiting internationally. But he but he paints 50% of his time, right? But nobody knows about his paintings, he doesn’t exhibit his paintings, he doesn’t do anything with them. So that mean, there’s the there’s the nature of investigating processes, versus what are you known for? Sort of what you put out what you create your reputation based on, I’m still a fan of singular mediums and your discipline. I don’t whatever you want to call it. Like, even though I crossed mediums and disciplines now in my own thing, but but it’s still stay within a similar medium. So like I work two dimensionally I don’t work three dimensionally, whereas it seems like you vary between two dimensional three dimensional and also writing versus visual arts. And,
Michael Rowland 1:12:30
and it is, it’s, it is an interesting question, because I think psychologically speaking, I think there’s a point I want to make, and a point I want to reach, and I don’t know how to say it, and that it’s this impossible thing that you’re trying to say, and I don’t know how to say it. But I think it’s there. It’s the kind of thing I don’t know, like, if there’s an answer to life, the universe and everything, it’s something that should be able to be written on a T shirt, you know, you always split into a dying man’s ear as 40 tunes that everybody knows that it’s 42. See, I could just paint 42 on a wall and walk away This is but maybe this is the fear. And I have considered this, the fear is that you would come up with the answer, and then there’s nothing to do, then you’ve really you
Matthew Dols 1:13:10
actually are afraid that you’re going to come up with the answer to the meaning of life,
Michael Rowland 1:13:14
think subconsciously, I might come up to the answer to why I do anything, or why I’m here or which I think I already get that. I think I know. intellectually, I think I know, you know why I’m here and what’s happening. But if I was totally get it through some painting, or through some poetry or writing, and nail it, it could ruin the fun of being confused and actually searching. It’s there’s a great quote quote from Emil grrm, this Romanian philosopher, he said, if there’s, there’s nothing to say. And that’s why they’ll never be an end of things we can write about. There’s I think there’s a point in my art where I do like the confusion I do like the not knowing. And that’s where the poetry is in the conflict. There’s no conflict, no poetry document, I’ve worked in lots of different disciplines and mediums in my life
Matthew Dols 1:14:11
I write I’ve even got word artwork with where I incorporate my writing into it. But I find that I find again, like this is me projecting on to you. So like, I find that I might diverge into these other things. But in the end, I sort of have to somehow figure a way to bring it back into my core thing because I mean, in the end, going back to the point of like, galleries and curators and all these people, they want to have a story behind your work. So like there needs to be a core fundamental story and it’s easier to to express that story, not as you but as the the art world. So like for them to be able to express the story when you’re working in a single discipline because it feels like it’s a cohesive story just because of the discipline or iedm. But when I feel Like when even when I do it like, I often have two sets of works that I’m working on, I have a very, very personal, intimate and vulnerable work that’s, you know, very difficult for me to express and somewhat painful even sometimes to even share. And then I have this other set of work that’s purely technical limitations is that it’s working on process and medium and techniques and things like this. And they don’t match. They’re very didactic in many ways. And that’s probably even hurt my own career. So even though there’s the same medium, they’re very different aesthetics to them.
Michael Rowland 1:15:35
I found that I deliberately hurt the career in certain aspects as well yesterday, but don’t we all do something
Matthew Dols 1:15:43
that deliberately hurts our career, I guess ever so we’re self What is it? Self self sabotage,
Michael Rowland 1:15:49
self sabotage? That’s the word. Yeah, there’s a big element of self sabotage. And, for example, the the painting that’s on the easel now, which came quite quickly and was just for fun. So the between paintings is on a certain subject that people could connect to, whereas the rest of it’s quite personal. This is about you know, there’s Tarot symbolism there. And it’s the type of thing that a friend of mine said that would sell you do more of that you’d, you know, these sorts of things would make you money. And the good reaction was, I’m never going to do that again. Then, when people say, you know, this particular thing has been selling well, and I’ve had some things that small paintings I did that were selling quite well, and, and so like, why don’t you do more of those. And as soon as someone says that, I wanted to do a 20 foot high picture and make it an abstract. I’m like, Nah, I don’t want to do that anymore. I don’t know. That seems like there’s something that that’s obviously not the answer that I’m looking for, psychologically, because the answer didn’t come in at its soul. That’s one thing. That’s, that’s good. But there’s still something else. That’s obviously not the answer. So I don’t know maybe if Yeah, I don’t quite know what that
says, Oh, we all know, you’re the art. We all do.
Matthew Dols 1:16:58
We all self sabotage. I mean, you know, if I really wanted to make great art, I could be working in the studio, instead of making this podcast, right, put more effort into public relations and publicizing my art and instead of making this podcast, but to a certain extent, I’m like self sabotaging my own art career by focusing on making a podcast instead, I would see this as being beneficial to it. I’m sure I’m hoping it will be beneficial. But it’s taking time away from producing art in the studio. It’s taking time away from public relations for those with my work and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I mean, it has it’s it’s related, but it’s in a way it’s kind of self sabotaging, because I’m taking myself out of the studio practice in order to create this.
Michael Rowland 1:17:43
But then meeting interesting, I’m having very interesting, but yeah,
Matthew Dols 1:17:46
I mean, I’m having fun, and I’m learning a lot, so don’t get me wrong. I mean, this is a first world problem for sure. I’m a champagne complainer here, but still,
Michael Rowland 1:17:57
I think it’s great for stuff. I’ve listened to three or four other podcasts now and I’m learning stuff. This is great to listen to the guys talking. I don’t know if I’ve given anything beneficial to anybody. But certainly I’ve taken things from from the other the other guys that have been interviewed, and grace Louis. Yeah, that I consider guys both Cobra friends guys as well. But yeah, Louise, and it was it. Eric. Erica, was the name Elena Elena Elena sorry, yeah. They were great. Milan, Milan, Milan, and
Matthew Dols 1:18:28
the author. And you’re actually the first fan of the podcast on the podcast? Because what because when I started it off, I had to basically say, hey, of starting this thing. Yeah. And it was unknown, untested hadn’t been published. So like, a lot of people had to participate on this on faith and hope that I was making something nice.
Michael Rowland 1:18:49
I’ve been sharing it and telling the guys about it, because he
Matthew Dols 1:18:51
now Yeah, now people have actually heard it. And I’ve actually gotten a few people that have listened to it have said, Hey, would you be interested in talking to me or my boss or other things like this. And of course, later after this, how this is done, I’ll be asking you for some recommendations of some other people to talk to as well, because the part of the idea is to build a community and then that community has a series of branches. So like everybody needs to connect. It just works a lot easier that way.
Michael Rowland 1:19:18
Yeah. I think it’s super. And yeah, it’s an education tool, I think. And one of the nicest things I think that’s coming from it is there’s the human aspect, that everyone is sort of in the same kind of uncomfortable position when it comes to art. Yeah, there’s no stable guy that you will speak to who says, Yeah, I’ve got it all sorted.
Matthew Dols 1:19:38
Not only that, but the everybody just has their own unique perspective on it. Yeah. Some people come to it with a sense of arrogance, like I did years ago, some people come, you know, some people, some people come to it from a business standpoint, from a business background, right? Whereas some people like like me, and you seem to come from a pure artistic background and we don’t know how to do the business very well. You Yeah, so everybody has their own little voice and their own little perspective on how it all works. And I’m learning a lot. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 1:20:10
yeah, it’s fun. That’s fantastic.
Matthew Dols 1:20:11
I hope
Michael Rowland 1:20:14
this has been fun
Matthew Dols 1:20:15
if you could give some advice through your own successes and failures that you’ve had the so to try and help somebody else who might be at a similar place to either where you are, where you have been to make it so that their journey through the process is easier. What would you give,
Michael Rowland 1:20:32
I think off the top of my head, that would be, I really recommend collaborating, ask for help. Go out and meet people. Don’t work with people that you don’t like, and make sure you’ve got a studio, that’s ideally separate from your house that changed my game in a big way. Get yourself your own space, they’d be the top tips.
Matthew Dols 1:20:55
Just to clarify on the collaborating thing. Collaborating does not necessarily mean art, to artists collaborating on an art piece, right? It This is a European thing. Because in America, yeah, the term collaboration means two artists working on a piece or a work of art together. Yeah,
Michael Rowland 1:21:14
I would consider it more two or three artists working on a show together. So actually working on something like that.
Matthew Dols 1:21:20
Yeah. Or in some sort of a barter thing like me building boxes for you. That’s a cut in Europe. That’s referred to as a collaboration show. Yeah. But but that’s in America and other places. That’s not the collaboration is not the word that we use for that. Yeah. It’s a trade or just working with. Yeah, but Sure, yeah.
Michael Rowland 1:21:38
The common goal. People are like, nice people.
Matthew Dols 1:21:43
Yeah. But it’s not easy to keep people you like around. Unfortunately, a lot of the business of the arts is having to work with people you didn’t it’s not that you don’t like them, but maybe you just don’t like them.
Michael Rowland 1:21:55
This is Yeah, that’s actually sounds a bit nasty to say. So like and don’t like but people that you work well with people that you connect with, you know, you have similar similar attitudes, or things similar sort of approach to
Matthew Dols 1:22:07
engineering. Yes, that brings up another question that I’ve been asking a lot recently. If you have the ability to be successful, so define that word, however you’d like. Explain to me, what would be your definition of being successful?
Michael Rowland 1:22:27
I often picture in my head, my uncle painting the pictures in his on his board, in his room, it was just a lovely cottage, nice garden. It just, it was sort of a picture of paradise. And that was the easy, the easy day he was doing what he loved. So there’s nothing too grand. It’s I don’t know about that. I’ve got any ambition to get into MoMA. But I would like enough money to be able to paint all day and
Matthew Dols 1:22:55
right. It’s just a question.
Michael Rowland 1:22:56
That would be success. still eating when I’m 90. Fair enough paying the light bills.
Matthew Dols 1:23:03
I want to find an electric company that will let me barter for artwork, actually. Amazing.
Michael Rowland 1:23:09
Yeah.
Matthew Dols 1:23:11
Final question, which you already know, because you’ve listened to the podcast is trying to find some step by step, or individual steps in the process of trying to get a single piece of my artwork exhibit in the Museum of Modern Art. In New York City.
Michael Rowland 1:23:26
Well, yeah, it’s good. Since I’ve listened to the show. Plus, I’ve thought about this a bit. I think there’s been a couple of really good pieces of advice. One of them was go local. I think that’s terrific advice. It’s Yeah. Same, the same would relate to psychologically speaking, you know, don’t try and change the world changes. Well, first, you know, put your put your own breathing mask on before everybody else. So in that, in that sense, I would say, start local. I’ve thought about it a few times, I think you’re doing the right thing doing this. I think this is this is a good first step, though, it may not be your first step. It could be your 15th step. But this is a good step. Again, it’s meeting the local people, it’s making them aware of your own art, showing yourself. And so it’s about inviting people to your party, I think letting people know about you, if you could, if you could put up a pop up exhibition, and have MoMA want to show something at your place that would probably be more interesting than the other way around.
Matthew Dols 1:24:26
All right, fair enough. So thank you very much for your time.
Michael Rowland 1:24:29
You’re very welcome.
The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com
All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com