Transcript for Episode 012 – Art Duo, Merav Kamel + Halil Balabin (Isreal)

Published on July 13, 2019

Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-art-duo-merav-kamel-and-halil-balabin-isreal/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your names correctly for me,

Merav Kamel 0:14
I’m Merav Kamel

Halil Balabin 0:16
and I’m Halil Balabin,

Matthew Dols 0:17
and where are you all from

Merav Kamel 0:19
Tel Aviv, Israel,

Matthew Dols 0:21
both of you.

Merav Kamel 0:22
I was born originally into the Vive and then moved to Jerusalem and then to live again. Hopefully not for long.

Halil Balabin 0:30
Yeah. And I grew up in a kibbutz, which is a kind of socialist village between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. It’s on the mountains. And I lived there till I was 18. I grew up in a communal education. And then I moved to the desert for a couple of years to another Kibbutz. And so then, I moved to Jerusalem and I met my love and when when did you all meet?

Merav Kamel 1:03
It was in 2012, in the eternal Academy of Arts in Jerusalem,

Matthew Dols 1:09
and you will produce your work together as as a collaborative group, basically, yes,

Halil Balabin 1:14
yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we do works or exhibitions alone. But most of the time, it’s collaborative, like as a do,

Merav Kamel 1:24
mostly conceptual collaborative work. I mean, it’s not like we standing together in on top of the same paper, drinking juice and painting. Now you don’t

Matthew Dols 1:36
pass the brush to each other kind of thing.

Merav Kamel 1:38
No, we don’t do those kinds of surrealist drawings or games and mostly just, we ask ourself Exquisite Corpse is well,

Halil Balabin 1:51
yeah, although the result can be similar to the surrealist right kind of stuff. But it’s not coming out of this, like collaboration, mostly. It’s really important for us and I think, for the collaboration to work to have the autonomy of each one. And like the strong connection of one with the material. Yeah,

Merav Kamel 2:16
yeah. Before every each project, we just ask ourself, what will be the next project? I mean, if it will be like conceptual work with a subject or theme or something that we want to discover? Or is it going to be much more formalised exhibition? So maybe the question will be in which material material we would like to work now. So then, it’s just a question about how it’s going to relate to each other in the end. So mostly, we exhibit the work. So every work is separately, but it’s looked like one serious made by one artist. So

Matthew Dols 2:58
this current pieces that you’re working on here are fabric and sort of figurative in nature, is this your general medium Do you often work with fabric and figurative sculptures,

Halil Balabin 3:09
we have, like when we started working together, it was with these kinds of work, it was originally for a craft market. It wasn’t like regarding to the to the serious art that we thought we should do in the in the academy. And then slowly, we started to collaborate also with more like serious conceptual works, that considered art. And slowly also the doors like the soft sculptures became art. And yeah, now we have like this kind of circles of work. So there is like this doors that we’re doing every once in a while, like this, one group of them for exhibition. And there is like the drawing and conceptual installations that usually go around till now at least they went around the geographical story, like this was the trigger and then it flew to other stuff. And it’s usually also has sound recording of some interviews. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 4:21
Okay, so you all be working sort of you think of the media that you want to produce something in and you sort of float between mediums. So you would generally be mixed media, multimedia, conceptual artists, current work being these fabric sculptures. So when I met you all, we hadn’t started an interesting conversation about the idea of like, when you produce a work of art or the idea of curb building a career and the idea of like, what is the definition of success? Because that’s something that through this podcast I’m trying to do, and the word success is a bad word. It’s a it’s a stigmatizing words a charged word, because when you say Success in one way means to a certain extent you’ve sold out and done commercial work, and you’re not really being true to yourself. But different forms of success come in different ways. So help me out, give me a definition of yours that ideas of some sort of a, a variation of success, something that works for that word for you.

Merav Kamel 5:18
I think this question is a question that we ask ourself through our career, I mean, in the start when we get when we just began, so there was like the final exhibition of the Academy. So for example, we had an article that they wrote about us. So it was very sweet. I mean, to open the main newspaper, in the art section and see like a very nice article about your artwork. So reviews are great. refuser they build your confidence? Totally. And I mean, we got those several good reviews about our exhibitions after the academy as well. But in certain point, I think it became meaningless, because I don’t know in a long term, so the work should work for you. Like, I mean, the success is something that it’s not really it is something that build in terms of what our parents would think, or what the society will think, and I, our teachers and friends on whatever. So the question is, how to escape from it. I think for me, I mean, it’s not, it’s just a nice side effect, but how to not let it affect you, and create like a city will be a drunk of the success. Sure. It’s not a goal. It’s just a nice side effect. I would say. Interesting. Okay.

Matthew Dols 6:54
Do you have the same opinion?

Halil Balabin 6:56
No. I think, for me, first of all, I feel more comfortable when I’m looking like a loser being a loser. So I prefer being in on that side, usually side. And also, I feel that it’s like not such a good drug or like, because it’s not so satisfying. I mean, it is, of course, we all have ego. And

Matthew Dols 7:22
also I have a short term side effects. Yeah,

Halil Balabin 7:25
exactly. It’s like so short, and it’s also not. So what I’m trying to say is that it’s important for me, to make a separation, I think that like being a wiser person is about dividing realities and to, to see what kind of success has a content that can be meaningful, or what kind of success can help me arrange my life in a way that I want them to be. And what kind of success isn’t so like, money is nice, because it can help me be more in my studio, which is what I love to do, as well, of course. And article is also very nice, because it gives you content, if it’s a meaningful article that wrote by someone you appreciate, but like prizes, it’s besides the money. It’s like, kind of bullshit, in my opinion.

Matthew Dols 8:23
Which leads to an interesting question. Do you all enter a lot of competitions? Like, has that been something that you’ve been doing in your career?

Halil Balabin 8:30
Not a lot, you know?

Merav Kamel 8:36
Like there is one prize for young artists or from the museum Tel Aviv that we applying. And there is some programs and grants. So we Yeah, it’s like part of our daily artistic work is to have some time to sit and just doing open calls.

Matthew Dols 8:56
And this is sort of part of my one of my big questions on this is like, in the contemporary, it’s feels like and I’m you know, in the contemporary art world, it feels like we we as artists have to spend a lot of time more or less like publicizing ourselves or doing public relations. A lot more than probably ever in the past. Yeah. Then being in the studio and honing and mastering our skills and abilities. We have to do a lot of social media, we have to write grants, we have to write proposals, we, you know, there’s so much other stuff that feels like he’s necessary these days to have a career. That wasn’t really true in the past. So like, how do you balance that like with the amount of time and energy you have to put into social media, grant writing, residency, writing all these kinds of things with time and energy and money to put towards producing a work? So I would say that the best time for to open calls in ESCO grants its residency time because you have a lot of time and so you Usually residency time to apply for others a bit.

Halil Balabin 10:03
Yeah. So we got here

Merav Kamel 10:06
was because of our less residency that was in the sort of Germany for half a year. So you basically have a lot of time. And then you can really build your schedule to the future by just blank. But also, I will say that there is not such a lot of open calls, like I mean,

Matthew Dols 10:24
with open calls, which is a great thing, because there are actually a lot of open calls, but they’re not all quality.

Merav Kamel 10:32
Yeah, I mean, like, they are not paying it like there is no funding, and some of them are not for free. So we basically, yeah, we were applying just for residency with grants that are free. So that is the reason, for example, that we are not applying to the United States, because they asking for fee in

Halil Balabin 10:55
application. Taiwan like, well, that’s

Matthew Dols 10:58
totally to me. Yeah. Like, to me, when you’re saying like, Oh, I’m applying for an open course, if I’m like, I’m sitting here in my mind going, Oh, my God, if they apply for three, like 1010 of them, that’s $35 an application that’s $350. Like, where did they get that kind of money laying around to make all these applications? No, only the ones that are free? Okay, so there. So most of Europe, in this region and this region in general seem to have free application. Yeah. So that’s, that’s a bonus. Yeah, I would stay away from America just for that as well. Yeah. So and you will have now actually, you’ve been on how call it like on the road doing during your residency is for how long now? Like, how long have you been doing this?

Halil Balabin 11:42
We’ve been now in Finland, we came beautiful country.

Merav Kamel 11:49
have been talking since June, for a month till July. And now we are in Prague till the end of July. And we’re going to build no till the middle of September. It happened just by luck. You know, it’s like a lottery game.

Matthew Dols 12:04
It’s not luck, though. You put the work in you did. You did the scheduling. Like Don’t, don’t act like it’s locked. You actually were proactive and applying for these positions?

Merav Kamel 12:15
Yes. But still, it’s a combination. Because you cannot really know like, we got the first we got to the residency in Finland. And we just they asked you for a date. So it was just like, a date in the year. June sound nice to be in Finland in the

Matthew Dols 12:35
maybe better than December for sure.

Merav Kamel 12:36
Yeah. And then came the others. So the other is like in Prague, which was a very honest application, we say cause regard, we got first day in residency in a bill now, which is a city two hours from Prague, we’re going to have their exhibition. So the curator of this exhibition, ask us if we would like to stay there for residency before the exhibition, it’s a group show. And then we just ask the artists here in the studio, we send an very honest application that we’re going to be no, no. And we have some time to spend in Czech Republic. And if there allow us to come and produce some books that relate to the environment or whatever.

Matthew Dols 13:25
Well, that’s incredibly proactive. I mean, that’s not luck. You actually, you thought through yourself, like, Hey, we’re already in the Czech Republic, what other residencies? Could we go and do I mean, you you put the work and the effort into doing this is not luck. Many of the other people I’ve talked to about residencies, in particular. So like, I’m with you all, I’m very interested in like, why and how you’re doing these residencies kinds of things. Because it’s not a lot of people can do it. If they’re very selective, they’re very competitive. And then this kinds of things. And also it’s, it takes a certain lifestyle and a certain maybe age that you’re willing to do it and be able to do it. You know, I’m assuming you all don’t have children. Now, because that would make it a bit more difficult to do something like this. So the question would be, when you’re looking at residencies and things along this line, like what do you look for? Other than free applications?

Merav Kamel 14:17
It’s really simple as that. I mean, there is not really a lot of applications, like there is the famous ones that we are applying to the the biggest thing, Netherland, the x Academy, a career, and it’s also cost money, but I mean,

Halil Balabin 14:35
it was it’s probably Yeah,

Matthew Dols 14:36
yeah. And we didn’t got it for two years already. But still we are playing there. But that’s like even that’s an interesting thing. Like, I’m trying to put myself in the mind of the people listening to this. So like if I was an artist listening to this podcast, I like hearing that you have applied two years in a row for a particular residency. You haven’t gotten it. Are you going to apply again next year?

Halil Balabin 14:58
Yeah, I think also Like the regarding to what you said before, like, one thing that is like that helps us as do is a couple with this residency is also the fact that when you’re too so it’s easier not to like to give up the ego in a way and not to get so hurt and frustrated when you you’re failing.

Matthew Dols 15:19
Oh yeah, I get hurt and frustrated all the time by myself. Because it’s basically somebody saying no to me.

Halil Balabin 15:26
Yeah, yeah, it’s much more personal. Yeah. And it’s also with us and I know the feeling because like, when I do stuff alone. So when you get like good reviews, it’s like, brings you much more up and bear with you. It’s brings your ego, like crush it and

Matthew Dols 15:41
every day.

Halil Balabin 15:42
Yeah. And so I think this is one aspect, that it’s good in working together. It’s also and also like the fact that we can go together and I guess it can be less lonely in the residency itself, because it can be quite hard to find new friends and to be alone on the in the studio in a foreign country for like six months or something. I guess it’s also we can have survivors of crazy stuff, but usually it’s okay.

Matthew Dols 16:11
Yeah. Which sort of begs the question like, so do you choose? Because I know their residency is where their group experiences where you’re there with people who work in other mediums, I think. And there’s some residencies that are very much about solo practice, where basically, you’re just given a space and you’re left alone. Do you have a preference on those? If so, why,

Merav Kamel 16:31
till now it was. So I will answer this question. Also the other question, because before he asked why we are applying to a certain residency, and not even though we don’t get there. This is a very high quality residency, and also it’s long term residency, it’s for a year or two. So that was the one in the one in the Netherlands. Yeah, it’s post graduate residency. So we’re looking for for for those but many, most of the residency are for three months, I will say one months. And I would say that for us, we’re looking for something that it’s not about working with a group or it’s meant to be alone to work to have the equivalent of staying somewhere, usually they asking for a project, I mean, you need to come up with an idea of to suggest something that you would like to develop or and work, but for from what we experienced till now. So they’re not expect you to do nothing. Basically, they know that you applied for the residency and you have an idea, but usually, they are not even checking if you did it or not. So it’s, I mean, it’s just an very honor and generous idea, those residency I mean, I don’t know who is the guy that created but

invented

Matthew Dols 18:00
the residency. But mister residency,

Merav Kamel 18:03
residency is not okay, because it’s very those rich people that decide to know, or rich corporations also.

Matthew Dols 18:16
Could be Yeah, but to support arts, you know, it’s really something that people don’t understand why it’s very, it’s I mean, I come from America, where it’s, it’s a very, it’s not common to support the arts. Oftentimes, they do it only because, like, specifically corporations and private people do it because it’s tax deductible. So it’s just like something they get, they get some benefit from it. That’s why they do it not because they have a great love for the arts and culture even I shouldn’t say arts, but in Europe, it’s feels like it’s a bit more traditional. It feels like there’s a much longer richer history of supporting arts and culture here than it also in the Middle East and in Asia, there’s there’s just a richer history to it. But of course, it’s also older. But

Merav Kamel 19:03
it’s also coming back to the question about success, I think, because it’s really the question also why you doing art if you do it for money, or you do it for something that is beyond? And if people cannot understand what is the things that is beyond art, and why it exists and why people doing it, why people need to have time for it and even though it’s not helped the community or not bringing I don’t know that the climate changing in answer so it’s just not things that can be nonsense and bizarre in the world and still have value. So for us, it’s very surprising that this program still alive You know, the say bubbles, zones that created those very magical spirits for creating in varying websites. Very important cause it’s really hard, you know, when you are in the, in the daily life, for example, in Israel, it’s like the secrecy, the politics, the parents, the family, they’re all around. It’s very surrounding and taking you down. I mean, it’s like, taking you to the cliche, air, it’s like the fresh air that above you need to really seek for it. It’s not something that it’s coming. Like an office daily worker, you need to do some rituals, some I know some to change that something in your life and residencies, I guess it’s a nice, open door to go into.

Halil Balabin 20:46
Yeah, it’s also a way I feel for me to get rid of some issues I have with like, this ego of I don’t know, if I have I think that like our communities have

Matthew Dols 21:01
an ego or some

Halil Balabin 21:02
of course, I have, I think everyone has, of course, I have this well, but I try to stay above it or below it sometimes. And, and I think that the way to do it, it’s really to stay focused in the work. This is what’s really interesting me and really satisfying me. And I tried to think today in the morning before this talk, like what is about why do people want it like success? Or like no. And I thought about, like, the fact that we know that we’re going to die. And that it has something to do with it.

Matthew Dols 21:37
I’ve heard this idea before, actually. Yeah. Yeah. That you want something to last that it is a is a representation of your life after your death. Yes, kind of things. That kind of an idea. Yeah, I’ve heard this.

Halil Balabin 21:50
And it’s also and then I thought that maybe it’s not so like, dirty, you’re like, I thought I felt at first I was this word, because it’s also like as because this is also connected to my need to do art, or to write a talk that I just had or to, it’s like, I know that I’m going to die one day, hopefully not soon, will will Yeah. And even if I will have this success, whatever, or this bronze sculpture that can last ideally, for I don’t know how many years, it doesn’t really matter, because it will vanish when in the end, you know, so, but still, like we have this needs to stay a minute more with the start with this presentation of us with this tech that I just wrote one thought or quotes for someone else. Like it’s really. So yeah, I think this is why I said like before, but they’re like, dividing the ones that are like meaningful, and the ones that is just doesn’t really less long and not very satisfying, and not really, like helped me to realize myself and the life around me more. Because I’m interested in the one that helps me. And, and some of them is like bureaucracy, like I think you should do applications and stuff like this is bureaucracy, like you’re paying the taxes, which is really hard. I don’t manage to it because I have too much emotion involved like if, right, if you get Yeah,

Matthew Dols 23:16
which actually leads to one of my big like, moments like in contemporary art, I feel like there’s a lot of emphasis on the need to be able to write about your work. So create artist statements, create grant applications, residency applications, instead of putting it in the work or spending the time in the studio, that you have to actually be able to eloquently express your ideas in writing, when really visual artists have chosen to be visual artists, because we can’t express what we want in writing. So they How do you like how do you so that you personally your your things? How do you figure out how to really write those artists statements and write those applications? eloquently because obviously, you’re having some success with this. Give us some some insight on that, because I like I’m horrible at it.

Halil Balabin 24:12
I feel that for me. I think also for him a bit like writing is actually a tool or something in their everyday life that I’m doing. We’re doing to understand myself better. But sadly, the format of this artist statement and proposal usually is not suitable for this kind of writing that I do. They say

Matthew Dols 24:35
like oh 500 words or less or so they make you have to condense it down to some like other thing that like it doesn’t give you enough space to really flesh it out to really truly express your ideas. Yet, so how do you do it? What

Halil Balabin 24:50
it has, like I think it’s like, has some paragraph that we took from stuff we once seriously thought about right in my notebooks like this is a moment full of inspiration. But then it’s like digested so much time into more and more and more progression is like starting to die. And it’s really, it’s quite depressing. I think it’s really sad that artists are not a like the letter not challenging the format.

Merav Kamel 25:20
Yeah, but challenging the format. It’s also take a lot of energy. And I mean, to sit down and write for every application and new and fresh and authentic artist statement. For the moment. It can be three challenge, maybe it can be a piece of art, but But yeah, it’s it’s became I mean, it’s scary because the rewards have some meaning. And I think that when you write words, many talk about your art, you suddenly compress yourself into an object and into an product by yourself. And artists. It’s it’s not a product art artists is something it’s like a human being. I mean, every human being it’s, it’s a uj

Halil Balabin 26:13
s essence.

Merav Kamel 26:15
Yes, good

Matthew Dols 26:16
word.

Merav Kamel 26:16
So I don’t know, it’s really sad to find those fresh words to describe your works. Like a lot of time artists asked to come and to join a group show about something. And you know, it’s like the the knows that you’re doing those. So let’s do something. We’re doing a exhibition about the relationship between arts and crafts, for example. But then you immediately feeling that they compress your art and your thought to and one zone and put you into a ghetto. Oh, and

Matthew Dols 26:54
the industry loves to pigeonhole artists, like, you all are now the doll makers. Yes, somebody is a photographer, somebody is a painter, like, even though they work in multiple mediums and multiple disciplines, but the industry loves being able to just put one little things in your this

Merav Kamel 27:12
Yeah. And then you become the label of yourself and how to be able to liberate it and to open it. So it’s also the same question to how to resistance and how to do to, to able to get go, what gains the success against the market against the compress of yourself. And it’s hard because laziness, it’s really a comfortable couch and to sit in a couch and do the same and think the same and saying the same words. And even though you repeat yourself, but you get success, so it’s really fine. The it’s eating you lay in sooner or later, you will be bored with I think,

Matthew Dols 28:05
sure. But that what you just said, I find a little there’s a little tidbit in there that I want to ask you about when you’re doing your applications, okay? Like when I was in school, my teachers used to teach me come up with an artist statement. And it’s your just your boilerplate. It’s your like, your standard artist statement. And then you can just copy it into all your different applications and stuff like this. I don’t feel like that’s true anymore. I feel like now you really have to tailor your artist statement to the application. It not not dramatically but but you can’t just literally like write one artist statement and just copy and paste it into every single application for everything. You You do have to adjust it somewhat. Yes.

Halil Balabin 28:51
I also think you should, but if not what we’re doing well,

Matthew Dols 28:56
you do so you write just one.

Merav Kamel 28:58
And then you just copy. Okay. Yeah,

Halil Balabin 29:01
yeah, I could have some paragraph that it’s like, oh, here we need 200 words. So we do like the short one, we cut some paragraph and if we have a longer so we have the bigger one.

Matthew Dols 29:11
Okay, well,

Halil Balabin 29:12
we have like this pamphlet, and then we’re just applying quite a lot. I think compared to other artists, I think I’m horrible. But no, yeah, but we’re just doing it, you know? Yeah. And I think we are this is something khaleel taught me I think I can like because I’m really perfectionist in my original state, you know, so and we had a lot of arguments at first and still do sometimes like about that. I’m like, No, no, this word. It’s not correct. Oh, it’s fine. And I want to add this serious idea that I had, I just got this thing. Solo Artist and I sit there and do the same thing. Yes,

Matthew Dols 29:48
by myself. Maybe

Halil Balabin 29:49
you can. You can take you a bit. He will help you just to stand it, you know. And I think it’s really useful. Like it’s maybe this balance is good. Maybe we get the residencies opportunities, they put more mind about, like the word the works themselves and not about the words because I feel like, we’re not that kind of artists. And it’s sad for me to say it again, because I think that we do have some thoughts that maybe are not the best, the most genius ones, but like, there is this layer of verbal issues that would like to be like beside the work.

Merav Kamel 30:29
Yeah. But it’s can be very interesting to publish a book with artists statement, because it’s really something that remains after like, most of the artists are not writing. I mean, but it’s very interesting. I mean, I love to read what Mike Kelly wrote, you know, and artists, Lewis goes, why those artists left some knowledge. And we’re very generous to the other artists. And I think the combination between the writing and I will say the artificial in a way, because artists writing can be super interesting, and they find it and it can be complete bullshit. And it can be complete bullshit, because they read too much text in the museum’s but this is text the throat by other people and not artists. But if you’re reading a artist, text, so you can find a lot of jewelry is inside. And it’s really something that I tried to do, like, really love to read some interviews and to find the stuff is, I find it open minded, like this is my, my community, I will say no. So if you have the ability to get into other consciousness through words, and not just by works, plastic works. So it’s sometimes help to get in contact, they will say, I wish to read to write more and about our art, but somehow it’s just became very, very main thing. So maybe in the future, we know, different writing,

Halil Balabin 32:15
I feel that one, like maybe the problem is like the problem I have with most of the texts about artists that they they were written or redone. We read them usually as as if it can be a translation to a work of art and not something that just like another layer that may be not even connected to it.

Matthew Dols 32:40
Like I do one of my jobs, actually I do online portfolio reviews for photographers, and I’m always trying to encourage them that the the text should be something that if you looked at the entire series of work, you would you understand it once you see all of the work together, and it’s sort of got its own cohesion. And then the text that should be with it should in some way, offer some insight that they could not get by just looking at the art and somehow elevates the art in some way just to make it give it a little bit more gravitas, possibly, like more personal like, like some personal statement or story that you cannot physically just simply can’t put in the art, or some emotional gravitas kind of thing, some something to make to make the people appreciate and in the desire to engage in the work in a at a different level. Like, to me that’s what a statement should be. Because then the statement elevates the work instead of just sort of intellectually states like, Oh, I did this because of my belief in Friday and whatever. Like, you know, my love of Louise boozer, ah, you know, that’s a bit pompous in many ways. I, I feel like that they should they should be the statement the art should be cohesive and they should be, they should stand on their own sort of as a single piece. In a perfect world. Yeah, yeah. In a world thought for perfect.

Halil Balabin 34:04
Yeah, certainly not. Yeah, in a perfect world, the text would be a work of art by itself. And it would be like, like two works of art sit alongside each other.

Matthew Dols 34:13
Yeah, compliment each other and

Halil Balabin 34:15
yeah, and maybe even not just sitting there. When

Matthew Dols 34:22
the two of you all working as a team as a duo, how easy or difficult can that be? So the

Merav Kamel 34:30
the process of working together started this way to, to make it like a new area in our own work. I mean, like every each one of us have his own creativity, conceptual works, but somehow it felt like very limited in a way like you really find that there is a border, of your skein of your thinking of your ability of your gifts that you got from God or whatever. And then the idea of collaborate together was to maybe open it and to be able to do something that usually when you are alone, you’re not able to. So it started actually with the doors. I mean, we collaborate just with the fabric works. And then it’s just suddenly come into our our old works. I mean, we had in the big exhibition, conceptual about life story of a prisoner is set in jail, and we decided to tell his life story, a through a etching and interviewing. And we took some photos of him under the water of his childhood pool. And it was very interesting project. The very nice part of it was that we did it together. I mean, maybe the idea is that we’re going to meet a prisoner, and to meet him alone can be a bit scary. So to go together was somehow easily and somehow the idea of it also bring out some new ideas that didn’t work that was not there when we just started project. And I still believe in that topic of collaboration brings out like, more choices and more creativity, more knowledge into it. So actually,

Matthew Dols 36:40
I have a little question along that line. Now, you all are a couple. Where were you a couple first, then a duo of artists? Or did you work together as artists first and then the couple came second,

Merav Kamel 36:51
the couple came before cop came first?

Halil Balabin 36:54
Yeah, actually, it started when we were making, like sewing some gift to each other. And then we just said and like this, these creatures in our studio and in the studio in Butler Academy, and at night, and it started to become this assemblage. And yeah, it’s just I feel more like it just happened. But then we also like, now we’re in this time of mourning, or in the previous year’s like, since it started this collaboration that we need to think each time. Like, is it now? What is it now like, what it’s more like, it’s, it’s not so much about thinking what it is more like, listening to what it is now that we should do, like, the way continue with this door making or try to take some like stuff that annoying me in my mind or whatever, like some some questions about something and try to find some solutions or not or, and also, yeah, I think about, like, the interesting thing to me about this exhibition you talked about, and some others that are more like serious than the soft sculptures is that we have this topic, this like, frame of idea. And then each one of us needs to plug into it from some from his perspective, or her or mine. So it’s like, and I think that this plugging in, is make the work also, it’s like kind of hard sometime because you it’s like to watch electric, you need to connect to someone else. It’s like really about to lose yourself in a way and find yourself after losing yourself. But if you manage to find yourself after losing yourself, and if we both do it, so like in the moment when it happened, so I feel like the works has its own ego or its own life and then it can be more hopefully it can communicate to the viewer as well. I mean it because it’s it has like the communication between us in those moments. I think also we’re not talking so much during the talk about the ideas. It’s it’s a lot of like talking about materials or talking about the work itself and not so much about this concept. Yeah, so like stuff you would think that would be ended up in artist statement.

Matthew Dols 39:28
Now you’re currently doing what I would consider reasonably small scale works that I’m seeing here and that a lot of that I’m sure is because you’re on a residency and so that you have to transport these things and this kind of stuff. So do you foresee in the future potentially like working at different scales and and different weight? Because these are incredibly like sort of almost perfect for doing residency because you can sort of put them in a bag and transport them and they’re generally still in good condition. But do you have desires to do Your or your different work? Or is this really actually the work you want to be producing

Halil Balabin 40:04
about the doors specifically? They are growing up slowly now, if we will continue doing them, who knows? But yeah, now this is the right size for them, I feel it’s also very convenient with the residency but like now, because also like circumstances are like something that it’s part of now of what should be. And besides this, we do have like works that are bigger and like big drawings that cover the whole walls, or the installation works are more big, but maybe we’ll grow more. Who knows? Yeah,

Merav Kamel 40:42
the perfect solution is to have, if you can find collector is going to buy all the work after the residency, it can be the most nice, that is always the perfect solution. Yeah.

Halil Balabin 40:54
I think it’s important like to think to listen to the circumstances to what is possible, like not to push it and do like these crazy productions, you know, when it’s just don’t fit the situation, because then the work would be bad, usually, to what I feel like do

Matthew Dols 41:09
this crazy production simply because you have the resources. But then like, once the residency is done, what do you do with it?

Halil Balabin 41:14
Yeah, storage. And also a lot of artists do those crazy production because they have this fantasy, and then they don’t have the resources. And they spend this money on this material. And then they throw it away, because they don’t have where to store it. And then they also take care of so much on this material because they spent so much money on it and then it like they don’t, they’re not free enough to do what you should do with material in the studio to be free. And

Matthew Dols 41:38
yes, I am raising with somebody else this morning about the preciousness of material itself. Like if an artist goes out and buys a very expensive paint brushes, even let’s say or paint itself or, you know, linen Canvas instead of a canvas canvas. Like there’s a there’s a instilled fear that this sort of starts as soon as your your, your material, your source material is precious to you, you’re sort of you become afraid of damaging it or wasting it or something like this. So do you all it looks to me that Pardon? I’m sorry if I’m wrong on this, but it looks to me like you don’t use very expensive materials. As far as the actual physical material of this dolls. It seems like it’s a middle range is that you know, you’re not using silks and satins and very expensive materials kinds of things, there’s not a preciousness to them that so is does that allow you for a certain amount of freedom that potentially like more expensive materials might create a little tension or fear Actually,

Merav Kamel 42:40
we started with found fabric so this is the the next level that we start by our fabrics but fabrics are not very expensive. So it’s really easy. And usually the work that we’re doing are not taking a lot of kilometres of fabric so it’s usually with those kinds of works. It’s not very expensive. Although like if you walk in like one of the best things that one of my teacher told me when immediately after I finished my studies was to take like a lot of money and go to an art shop and just buy whatever I like because sometimes when you buying just one very expensive form so it’s it’s really like so you have this fear of destroyed but if you have like a lot of them so you don’t care it’s just like there. And I think it’s just another way to create motivation in yourself to have those things that you’d like to spend money on art is a great thing to spend money on. So yeah,

Matthew Dols 43:54
and now do you all have your galleries do Is there any place people can find your works? But also the question be if you don’t have a gallery, which do you want gallery

Merav Kamel 44:06
we actually we had an gallery before a year ago we decided to leave it that we immediately after we finish our study, we we came into the gallery with a bag full of dolls and they look at it and they said Wow, it’s amazing. Okay, we will give you like an A work like a project room exhibitions. So which was in the background, but it was all a cell. And then they was there was a big success with the small exhibition we had. So they invite us to do a bigger exhibition. And then we worked with them for maybe three or four years. And then we decided to quit immediately after we had the show in Miami in the in the art field there. And the reason was that we felt it We are a bit we became a bit sleepy in a way of our own career in a way. Because you really expect that the gallery will take care about your selling and about your connection to museums and about your success in outside of Israel. But actually, it was a great decision. So I really recommend because recommend to have a gallery when you beginning because three gives you a platform to have an exhibition and to meet some artists that are in the galleries, became friend of us and help us in other situation. It’s like it’s giving you an context in a way but since we felt that the gallery’s not self serve our own passions, we decide to work alone. And then we find out the very nice thing about selling is that the intimacy connections with a collectors is very important. Because when you walk into the gallery, so usually the collectors are coming, they buying you art and then you don’t know nothing about them, you don’t know who they are, and the work is gone, you’ve got the money, but it’s not worth it. Because when you know a collector, you know somebody that bought you a work of you, even though he is not a collector is just in the art. Whatever, like there is a curators of both art from us for Germany’s and he’s keeping buying by buying art from us. And it’s it’s like relationships that this make the career in the end. So I think it was a very good decision to leave the gallery, also money.

Matthew Dols 46:48
We sell much more now when we are alone, because I believe that, I don’t know, artists are much more interesting than galleries in a way, like maybe the biggest gallery can have a lot of collectors. But for me, I don’t know, when you met somebody you ever see, it’s became an authentic relationship. And I just and that’s the conversation that I keep having over and over with galleries and curators and artists is that it’s about relationships. And it’s about the story behind not just the art, because a lot of artists feel that they make an object, they put it in public people like it or they don’t they go you buy it. But in the reality, most collectors are buying the piece of art because they love the piece of art. But they also love the story behind the art. And they also respect the artists themselves, that when when a collector chooses to collect an art an artist, they’re investing their their their love and their passion for the art by supporting the people behind the art as much as they are the piece itself. So it’s that that whole relationship, that connection between the work the idea of the work and the people behind it. It that’s very instrumental in creating that whole connection.

Halil Balabin 48:05
Yeah, I feel like that. More than like, it’s true, of course, what you said. But for me personally like to know this thing. And then like to try and play this game, it’s impossible because once I know that I have interest of being in contact with someone, I don’t know that I need to talk to him. Because at the time, whatever. So I become I freeze and I get like really awkward and weird and it’s not good.

Matthew Dols 48:31
So then you must be the good with the background. If you’re a salesperson, then

Merav Kamel 48:37
I don’t know, I’m not sales person. But both of us and it just

Matthew Dols 48:44
I mean, I’m fascinated. Okay, you say that you have sold more, since you left the gallery than with the gallery. I probably as much as everybody listening to this podcast would probably love to know, how are you doing that? Social media website, doing residencies, making connections going to parties going to events me? What is it? What’s your trick?

Halil Balabin 49:06
I’m gonna go back to the I don’t know, it’s like a personal it’s not really a trick. You know, it’s not the trick. Okay. That’s like,

Matthew Dols 49:13
what’s your what’s your technique?

Halil Balabin 49:15
Yeah, it’s To me, it’s like to forget that I have in that I should get something out of this person and just be amazed that there is this person that for some reason is interested in or not interested, but there is a person and people are interesting.

Matthew Dols 49:32
Yeah. humility and being humble.

Halil Balabin 49:36
Oh, no, even not just like, I think it’s mysterious that people can buy stuff that it’s I don’t get it. You know, why do you want it? Most of the time? It’s super weird. And I think it’s interesting that it’s happening. And it’s like, almost I don’t know. I just tried to see them as person until we have This gap of like, where we came from, and we are from completely different background, and sometimes I feel like that different styles of living is, is really like in there for me. But then I just forget about it. And it just okay. It’s personal. And then it’s interesting. And then it goes, Well, you know, yeah. Because you’re just interested in someone and then corrections. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it doesn’t work, like you don’t have chemistry or something. And then conversation is not interesting and Okay, like, with relationships,

Matthew Dols 50:39
and that person end up not buying your work? Because, yeah, I mean, they

Halil Balabin 50:43
happens most of the, like, most of the time, don’t buy work, of course, you know,

Matthew Dols 50:47
what do you never know about the times people don’t buy your work, you know, about the people times people.

Merav Kamel 50:54
There’s so many people in the world, you know,

but one of the tips that I can recommend that we find out that once in a year, or once in a while, we just send a PDF with a new piece of art to our, like people that bought from us in the past. And she’s really surprising because people buy just by watching your new boards from pictures, you know, so somehow, it’s very good. And the other things that we find out that is very good is to do exhibitions.

Matthew Dols 51:27
I mean, it’s somehow much better than to leave your work in the studio, there’s an old sort of saying, like, the most amazing piece of art ever made in the world that had was not shown to anybody didn’t even exist. I mean, to a certain extent, art must be engaged by the public. So if you make an amazing piece of art in your studio, and you would never show it to anybody, does it even matter?

Halil Balabin 51:52
Yeah, we have this need. We have this need to express yourself and to like to synchronize the inside and outside of ourselves to be seen, so

Merav Kamel 52:04
But although it’s very, like, there is one artist in Israel showing once in seven years, but you have a great, amazing exhibition installations that you can really feel that every piece of detail, have a lot of intention and thinking and he took it to the edge, you know, and sometimes to rush and do stuff, just because I don’t know, we want another line in the CV or you want to sell some, it’s, I don’t know, it’s worthless, because you need to realize, okay, now I’m in the point that I need to have time to be a monk in, in my studio, and even not to produce works. It’s just like time to see. To build yourself again to become, again, to refresh everything to do list out and sometimes, I don’t know, to go on the wave of exhibitions. It’s very

Matthew Dols 53:08
seductive.

Merav Kamel 53:09
Yeah. But, but to also to say no, it’s, it’s good sometimes I think I feel now it’s Mike. For me, it’s a time to to have a little bit of time for myself and go into the cave, you know, like in the kabbalists, the Jewish mystics so usually the kabbalists when they looking for a new spiritual feeling, so they going into the caves, they’re going into the so the cave can be like some kind of a studio. So there is a nice story, for example, about the rush beam, which was he he and his son went to the to the cave, and they sit there for 10 years under the ground, the head, just the head in top of the ground and we’re sitting and reading the Bible naked, naked under the ground. So

Matthew Dols 54:04
why would you be closed the underground? Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah, but he’s just you know, another bizarre rituals that artists need to do sometimes to fresh themselves. So I believe the exhibition it’s like to go out of the cave. But if you go out of the cave, and you don’t have nothing, it’s like a balloon. It’s just like, empty, it’s empty of, of meaning and itself is finally you will feel empty. For me. Now it’s time to go back to the cave and we’ve been doing like, you know, creative, creative. Could you do any residents, residents, residents, you’ve been producing, producing, producing and sometimes you just have to stop producing and sit back and think and look back over your what you did. And when you look at the potential ideas of where you have to go. A lot of people who don’t work in the arts industry think that artists literally just are inspired every day and they just go in and work. Or they’re the tortured artist, like, Don’t make anything for months or years on end and then suddenly explode with this new series, but it’s a balancing act like you can be creative for a certain amount of time, you have to sort of be reflective for a certain amount of time. You can’t just consciously be producing because otherwise you’re not you’re not evolving like you you have to sit back look at what you’ve done look at where you want to go what you want to produce, in order to get to that next level of your ideas, your concepts, your techniques, your whatever.

Merav Kamel 55:34
Yeah, totally. I mean, it’s the precious times like for example, you talk about materials that people spend a lot of money on material and then they afraid to touch them but I feel that sometimes I’m afraid of my time

Matthew Dols 55:54
so I’m going to go back into a little bit more about the the nature that you all had the thing that most artists practicing artists desire, which is gallery representation and you have chosen intentionally to leave that sort of almost security and and and desirable thing and you’re doing it on your own How are you doing it on your own? Why did you choose to do that?

Merav Kamel 56:16
I said before, I mean, like we were a bit sleeping and reasons that you need to find in place for exhibition to find people that will support your art and buy it and actually release you to be more active. And in that case, it’s I don’t know yeah, it’s just bring new energy into the every daily work so we find it nice

Matthew Dols 56:44
then how are you doing it? So like now you’re you’re actually selling your own work? I mean, like, like a nuts and bolts How are you doing it? Because a lot of artists you know, make sit in their studio and then at the end of the day, they’re like, how can I sell this? So how do you sell to you? So do you do it through mostly through exhibitions to do through residencies? Like how do you connect with your potential buyers, collectors, whatever,

Halil Balabin 57:10
mostly like exhibitions? And so we invite like we send them emails and invite them at the collectors we know and also like, if they can come so we will send them a PDF of the works and yeah, like the PDF

Merav Kamel 57:24
it’s no but then but usually we don’t we don’t invite people to our studio. Yeah, we don’t want to we don’t we don’t find it very successful to sell inside the studios for some reason, actually. Never happened. Okay. Oh, but just in exhibitions and outside of the studio for some reason. I don’t know why.

Halil Balabin 57:45
Maybe because it was so messy. Maybe like stylize their studio to make it look super cool. Oh, no.

Matthew Dols 57:54
No, no, I go into studios everywhere. It’s not stylized.

Halil Balabin 57:59
Like a mess. stylight mess, you know what I mean? I do

Matthew Dols 58:02
know what you mean, but the casual looking but yet messy.

Halil Balabin 58:08
Oh, maybe it just comes out naturally for them. Right? I think our master is not that pretty maybe this is how I

Merav Kamel 58:16
was at the studio, it’s like another zones that you need to be very careful who you bring into. So for me, it’s just another place that I really try to, to separate it from the market. And for some reason, I don’t like it I really don’t like when people come into the studio, like there is the time Okay, there is an exhibition worker out there is the secret that now everybody’s know but before that is just a secret and we looking forward also. curators, usually we prefer to meet them in cafe and to sit and talk and not to, to bring in bring them into the process because those kinds of advices people are usually make you more

Matthew Dols 59:08
confused, self conscious. And

Merav Kamel 59:11
I think the confusions like to be confused, it’s very good in art to not know if the answers that are there. So when somebody came and tell you the artist is looking very good, so now is the answer. It’s too good. But before that you you didn’t know you had the feelings that maybe I need to keep on working in that and maybe the course next year we’re going to have in the residency that we’re going to have two rooms of studio in his interview and we thought maybe to separate it like like like it was in the in Paris in the 19th century that there was the like the the place that they invite the people salon, the salon and there is the background. So to create an front and background which be like a fake a Place of how I still should look like your stage it like yeah, stylized sort of studio look Yes. And behind it can be the real secret. Also, if we talk about Kabbalah, for example, it was in the unlegal books so that the Jews were not allowed to read them into study them. So there are a couple of people, it created a fake books, a couple of fake books that so people will would took them and read read them. And so they thought, Okay, this is the real couple of books, which was the real couple of was the books that was under covered. Okay,

Matthew Dols 1:00:43
so keeping things hidden. For me,

Halil Balabin 1:00:45
I think, I think I like this processor, like super fragile, if you like, you need to listen very, very carefully to what it wants to be become an and in order to be brave in taking those decision or in like, going toward the works want to go. So you need to listen very carefully. And then when someone connects with the studio or your mind, it’s really like, it breaks everything, you know, it breaks the listening, and it’s so much noise that it’s impossible to

Matthew Dols 1:01:16
do. Yeah, so you don’t want anybody to outside of the two of you, obviously, to be involved or in any way influenced your process. But once you put it in public, you have a finished exhibition product, whatever you want to call it, that’s when you want feedback, but you do not want feedback in the process. Yeah,

Merav Kamel 1:01:38
none of them. I mean, it’s really not necessary. It’s really something also for us every in every exhibition, usually we sit down and write a little bit about our own works. To explain ourselves sometimes it’s really like a like when you studying in the academy, you you have the feelings that you bring in work and then the professor is coming in explain you what actually you did, which and then you can’t really follow your own language of saying what was your idea or sometimes I feel like you have the this talking with your unconscious. So the process is really unknown process and then when it coming to the final point and that you have an exhibition so you can really sit down and understand what you did. So for us it’s also something that is that is really important to sit down and to write first of all to ourselves before the main newspaper will come and viewers and collectors and everybody to write for ourselves

Matthew Dols 1:02:43
what we did. What is it so do you all do? Are you all sketchbook people or journal people? Do you go your journaling, diary, whatever you call it? Do you all do that? Everything? Yeah,

Merav Kamel 1:02:56
every day. Every day is Yeah, but I mean in writing a lot and we drawing and

Matthew Dols 1:03:05
some people are huge sketchbook users and journals and some people are not so I’m always interested to see sort of like, who does use journals and sketchbooks as a practice in their art process. And who doesn’t do both of you sketch and journal or do like one of you sketch more one of your journal more?

Halil Balabin 1:03:24
I have I recently I separated my sketchbooks like few years ago. So I have now the ones of the drawings like watercolor drawings that I do are like really, really intuitive drawings, just to find out like how am I doing today, every day. And also their writing sketchbook and I think that my writing is more. It’s not really like a diary. It’s like a habitat and then and I’ve tried to figure out some ideas, usually. And a bit more mystical. Maybe Orpheus of ideas. Nobody. Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s really hard to read maybe this word was like it’s really not communicative to someone else’s sometimes not even for me when I go back reading them.

Matthew Dols 1:04:12
Yeah, there’s a lady crap I’m gonna be horrible. Forget her name. But she’s got this book called The artist way where she actually recommends writing three pages in a journal every day. No matter what it is, you can just be sitting there going I haven’t I don’t know what to write. I don’t know what to write. I don’t know what to write. It doesn’t fill up three pages of text every single day. Because it’ll just cleanse your mind of like whatever’s weighing you down. And then you can go into the studio sort of free and open without the weight of the these thoughts because now you’ve put them out on paper. So Julia Cameron, Julia Cameron, yeah, the artists way. So I mean, that’s why I wonder about journaling because it’s a big thing. I mean, like you’d look through art history, like lots of artists who journaled and sketched and done all the kinds of things. So the question is like, Is it still relevant now? Or do people still do it? Is it still beneficial to the practice?

Merav Kamel 1:05:08
I believe that every medium is relevant. Like you’re using your phone camera is not necessarily just like something that Be careful. I’m a photographer. Yeah, I’m

Matthew Dols 1:05:20
sure a phone camera that’s on the edge for me.

Merav Kamel 1:05:25
Yeah, but sometimes you’re very drunk in a party, and you need to film something. So

Matthew Dols 1:05:30
yes, yeah. But is that art?

Merav Kamel 1:05:34
I’m not in those kinds of questions. But I mean, in the sketch questions, like how to sketch your ideas. Yeah. So how to find a way up to the clean your mind or to catch some ideas or whatever. So

Matthew Dols 1:05:51
was actually something I haven’t asked you all. Do you all have other jobs? Like other income? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, what else do you do to subsidize all this? Let’s say,

Halil Balabin 1:06:01
yes. So I’m teaching.

Merav Kamel 1:06:06
Yeah, I’m teaching in the academy. Now.

Matthew Dols 1:06:08
It’s enough. Now, we’ll get as I said, like we talked a little bit off air, but the some people take jobs that are complimentary to their artistic practice, some people take jobs that are contradictory to their artistic practice. So you find that it’s sort of helpful and helps with your entire creative process by having a job that is similar to and complementary to your art,

Halil Balabin 1:06:32
I find it very, like inspiring. And like that it’s the same one of the same system of life, like you said, like that. It’s like, I want my life to be around this thing. And I get a lot of inspiration from my students, and from hearing myself as a teacher, or as someone that asking questions, and it’s really important for me to my self confident than someone who can stand there and, like, manage something, this space of class, which is similar, different, but similar to the space of studio of an oil exhibition. But at the same time, I find it really energy consuming. I mean, I dream quite a lot about my students, and I think about them quite a lot. A bit too much. And I think that, like, I see all the issues like that or not regarding art, generally, and I see them so strongly. And it really takes my energy.

Matthew Dols 1:07:35
Like you see, like they’re having trouble at home or with finances or something. And it’s really hard because like, you kind of can’t talk about that because you’re a teacher, not a psychiatrist.

Halil Balabin 1:07:44
Yeah, because Okay,

Matthew Dols 1:07:46
yeah, yeah. But sometimes you have to play psychiatrists with with art students, because they’re, sometimes they need to find a way to take some struggles they’re having in their private lives and sort of maybe manifested in their work or, or resolve it or is at work with it, or work through it through their work.

Halil Balabin 1:08:04
Yeah. And it’s also super connected, like their art and their life. And I think this is why like, the boundaries between the personal and more professional work we’re doing is our teachers are like a bit blurred. And this is why we need to be super careful. Also, because we have a lot of power. And, but it’s also but I think that it’s dangerous that being so careful what we want want let ourself give them something or listen to them to the stuff that we can touch and shoot that into the touches. A bit. touchy. touchy?

Merav Kamel 1:08:44
never know.

Halil Balabin 1:08:46
Yeah, you know what?

Matthew Dols 1:08:48
I do, but the listeners might. Yeah, she does.

Halil Balabin 1:08:54
People teachers don’t understand that. No, it is. Yeah. Yeah. But I find it. It’s an amazing job. It’s really important.

Matthew Dols 1:09:02
Same for you. Yeah, I

Merav Kamel 1:09:04
like it. It’s nice. The teaching it’s very, I mean, in the academy, it’s super nice. Like I was teaching students, a young students in school. For me, it was too much.

Matthew Dols 1:09:20
Yeah, I

Merav Kamel 1:09:20
really felt like a clown, I really felt that I am I’m standing in front of 20 or 30 students and need to make them to the they need to be interesting what you’re saying. And usually they are not, and they to make them paint. And usually they don’t like to paint and they don’t have any patience to do something that you tell them to. So I really suffered so with students decide to come and study fine art, it’s much more easier. And from year to year, it’s just become more and more natural and authentic and I allowed myself to come and improvise much more So it’s really nice. And but besides that, I believe, like about your question with jobs that it’s really like, important to tell students in fine arts that there is no money, there is no job in most of the people will have no exhibitions or money to pay the rent or studios. And I really believe to find another second job can be very, it can be fair, I mean, like, the dream of being an artist, and you see your teachers teaching you is that you can do whatever you want, and just live your life and will be okay. Just, it’s fake. So, I don’t know, for me, it’s very sad to see all the people that didn’t manage to really find another things that they can make money off. And, but I will say that, what kind of things I will tell people to make money. You know, this is creative people. So if they, they’re really creative, so just to use their creative energy to think how to make money in the same way, which actually leads to one of my final questions that I ask everybody, which

Matthew Dols 1:11:23
is, if you had some advice about like, basically how to be quote, unquote, successful in the in the arts industry, what kind of experience what kind of things can you offer due to some some mistakes you made, so some failures and mistakes, or some sort of advice, or something’s you know, to the lake telling people to get a job within the, you know, that that also assists in their creativity or something like this. So some sort of final advice that you can give to aspiring artists. And as I said, like, it can also be a negative, like, watch out for this, don’t do this. Don’t fall prey to these people kind of things.

Merav Kamel 1:12:05
I would say, don’t go to too much openings in your own country, like in other countries, very nice, because you don’t know the people. But in your own small country, it’s really sucking a lot of energy, like all the Facebook and the openings, and the people. And nothing is growing up. I mean, nothing is just wasting of time and energy. And you just becoming another banal artist that try to be success tip still artists dressing well in cool. And I really believe that artists are bizarre creatures that need to be alone and doing weird stuff. So do you feel the same way?

Halil Balabin 1:12:52
Yeah, actually, I thought something quite similar, surprisingly. Not that similar, usually. But yeah, I also and also like, to continue this line of thought, like, yeah, don’t like don’t follow what everyone does, like in Israel. So of all the artists live in Tel Aviv, and spend so much money on the rent and the rent of the studio, and then they work all day to cover the cost. And then they don’t have time to make money. And then they go to openings and they waste more time and more time. It’s like this circle of select, just arrange your life by the way you like I want to do I am still I will talk about me, because I forget

Matthew Dols 1:13:29
this time, though. Yeah, the podcast is talking about you and your choices. So yeah,

Halil Balabin 1:13:34
just because I can talk about myself and about others. But yeah, like to, to, I try to find like the way I want to leave. So I found that, that I prefer not to spend much money and I don’t have to buy new clothes or eating a good restaurant or whatever. If I can work less and have more time to drink my coffee slowly in the morning and wake up slowly and to sit in the studio staring. Like this is how I want to live. So like, I hope that in the future, I won’t be living in an expensive place. And in this, or like, I don’t know, now nature looks like something somewhere I want to be because yeah, and like to use art for how I want to arrange my life and not the opposite, necessarily, like because this is part of life. And I don’t know, we live once or twice by the song of and insisting that now we live once. So like to use it carefully and not to like get hooked on some holograms of cool styles. And

Merav Kamel 1:14:44
the matrix says,

Halil Balabin 1:14:45
like these things. I also have like I see super cool people that was amazingly cool, but it’s worth it. It’s not the

Matthew Dols 1:14:55
last question that I asked everybody. This is going to be new because you haven’t heard this Part of the podcast is that I am seeking advice from you all. So from everybody I talked to, but in this case from you all, I will along the process of every podcast that I do, I will be doing a little subset podcast a little smaller one, that it will be a quantifiable result of this podcast because the idea is to learn how the art industry works. So, what I’m trying to do is figure out how the art industry works well enough that I can get a piece of my artwork in the Museum of Modern Art on exhibition. So and what I’m going to do is every advice that I get, I will do it. And I will keep everybody involved with all the different failures and successes that I have from the advice that I get. So what’s your advice on just it’s not a end result? It’s just a step in the process? What is something that you believe can help me to get to the top in the direction of having a piece of my art on exhibition in the museum Modern Art in New York City?

Halil Balabin 1:16:14
So many weird things that because I want to see you doing them, you know?

Matthew Dols 1:16:18
Oh, thank you. Okay. You wanted to send it? Yeah.

Merav Kamel 1:16:21
You’re so nice. I

Matthew Dols 1:16:22
don’t know, some people have told me to go be arrested for my art. Some people. Some people have said, Just walk into the museum monitor with a nail and a hammer and actually just put it up and hang it up. And then they go on there. Yeah. So like, people have given me some very odd ways to do it. And some people have taken it very seriously. So just but as I said, it’s not like the end part of it. Like the final part. It’s what some that what something that I can do. And theoretically, anybody who’s listening or even maybe yourselves now that I’m making you think about it, like something that to just place you on the right path to get there.

Merav Kamel 1:17:00
Maybe to write a little bit about your piece, maybe you should write some articles and find people that will write articles about this, because all the big masterpiece have a lot of different point of view about him, you know, like, so maybe you need to write about him or others. So we’ll we’ll get we’ll get a lot of meaning the small piece of art that you have some Yeah,

Halil Balabin 1:17:23
I have a more abstract. Sure. Yeah, yeah, I’m really believing in me fantasizing specifically, so that we can fantasize about stuff that would happen. But once we fantasize something very, very specific. It might energetically,

Matthew Dols 1:17:42
yeah, put it out into the universe. And that sort of happens.

Halil Balabin 1:17:45
But at the same time, it’s really important to to forget about it as well. And to understand that to one, this specific illusion, but also realize that it’s only an illusion, and it’s nothing. And it’s just an arbitrary

Matthew Dols 1:17:59
thing that I chose, like, it’s just

Halil Balabin 1:18:02
Yeah, but those words of power, those arbitrary things, you know, mind,

Matthew Dols 1:18:07
the dream, as an artist is always to, like, attain some level of recognition, whatever that level is everybody’s levels individually, you know, like, of course, and this is something that’s very interesting, because I’m American, okay. And in America, there, we are taught that we can do anything. And that’s not true everywhere in the world. Not everybody is taught that I was taught, if you want to be an artist, and have a retrospective of the Guggenheim, you can do that. Is that true in Israel today? Is that sort of the mentality that like you can use as an artist you can choose to just be great and be the best in the world.

Merav Kamel 1:18:47
Think success is very people don’t like success in Israel. I mean, nothing out like the artists look at himself in a very nonchalant way. I mean, success is something that you really want to get away from. And, yeah, so in a way, this is the environment somehow, between the artists, but still, there is some artists that really look for success and the seeking for getting back to the main point just started with, like, I see so many, like, some of my teachers that became like 4050s. So they really like I sit with them and talk with them and all what they have to speak of is just about how to success and how to sell more or whatever. And for me, it’s a bit I know, sad in a way because art is something that can exist for its own just because it’s interesting. You first of all, then maybe another One person and maybe another one, but the seeking for success or for I don’t know, for this visa they show in MoMA or whatever is just another V in in the big term of life.

Matthew Dols 1:20:17
It’s not, I’m feeling very shallow right now, but that’s how

Merav Kamel 1:20:22
I’m trying to say is that there is something beyond it. Because there is we have two friends at five years old artists. And when we sit with her, so she’s like, I know, she’s doing it. She’s doing it just for her own. She that showing her working exhibition in she’s one of the top parties in Islam. And she’s staying at home. She stayed for 10 years already. And she keep on doing art, maybe injury changing all the time. And

Halil Balabin 1:20:59
just send me a drawing once a day. Now, I know hands are like shaking, and it’s really like hard for her to do amazing work tonight,

Matthew Dols 1:21:07
I hope to die in my studio, like I never want to stop producing. Some of my favorite art that’s ever been produced was by people who didn’t even see it as art. They, they simply produced because they couldn’t not produce like they absolutely must be producing for themselves. Like there’s a guy Henry darja.

Merav Kamel 1:21:31
Outside artist, I mean, but I’m thinking about artists that decide to ignore the system. And I don’t know in to engage with the system in different levels. I think what you’re doing here in the podcast is amazing. It’s, I don’t know, for me, it’s better than the moment you know, you engage with so many people and you sharing your thought and listen to it. Yeah. And well, I

Matthew Dols 1:21:56
one of the things I like and you all even touched on it earlier is is actually like, the fact that you all are a couple is is one thing that like I find sort of very envious and very admirable. Because the one thing that I find most difficult in the arts community is finding a support network, and you all get to be each other support network. Whereas most artists in the world are by themselves. And they’re seeking some sort of validation or some sort of confirmation that they’re worthy. Whereas you all get to sort of do it to each other. Yeah, I don’t. Yeah. And I’m lonely. Mm hmm.

Merav Kamel 1:22:36
But so maybe this is, this is another question. You think if you will show in the moment, you will get it. If you will be famous, you will get it,

I don’t know you will not be still lonely.

Matthew Dols 1:22:47
Worse, I will still be alone.

Halil Balabin 1:22:48
Yes, one artist that represented a swell in various manner. And he told me this, that being the representative of Israel was one of the loneliest experience you ever had, in the context of the artwork in Israel, because everyone was super jealous with you, and you’re like alone there, and they don’t get it that it’s hard. And you need like, I had so many difficulties with money and whatever, regarding this exhibition. So he felt really, really lonely. And I think it’s

Matthew Dols 1:23:17
also the kind of conversations that I want people to hear, because like, I know that they occur. I know they happen because I’m out here doing this podcast, and I’m hearing all these things from people. But I think that the the artists that’s sitting in their studio right now listening to this podcast, doesn’t know that Yeah,

Halil Balabin 1:23:33
yeah, we forget it all the time.

Matthew Dols 1:23:35
Thank you very much for your time.

Merav Kamel 1:23:36
Thank you. Thank you. It was amazing.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com