Transcript for Episode 009 – Conceptual Artist, Antonín Jirát (Prague, CZ)

Published on August 19, 2019

Recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-conceptual-artist-antonin-jirat-prague-cz/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly

Antonin Jirat 0:13
for me, my name is Antonin Jirat All right,

Matthew Dols 0:17
and you are From where did you Where were you raised and born and all that

Antonin Jirat 0:21
pass. I was born in Prague, I live in Brock’s whole life. And I was raised close to from this place. Actually, I’m from this district. So I’m still on the one place, with some with some house spouses, who studying whatever. But I’m still

Matthew Dols 0:45
I’m always fascinated by people’s background, how they come to being creative,

Antonin Jirat 0:49
basically. So

Matthew Dols 0:50
like, what did your parents do?

Antonin Jirat 0:53
My parents, my father and my mother met each other on the on the University of chemistry, chemistry University and check. What is the title? Nevermind. It’s a chemistry University. Also from this district, it is in this district also, it’s very close. And they but my father is much more like, specialist finite about economy. And my mother was she was working in a new chemistry news magazine, let’s say or chemistry magazine, is the editor. Yeah. So it’s my background. Your personal background, then

Matthew Dols 1:33
was you went to school for what?

Antonin Jirat 1:37
My personal breakdown is kind of funny. Funny story. On like, I was in elementary school, then I went to the technical school, high school, Technical High School, electricity, and electric, I don’t know in English, electricity, electrician, some submission mechanic. Engineering, let’s say, but I failed in the first year. And I went to the hottel high school to teach myself how to cook. So I am CEF. Then I made the high school for like, I had to finish the high school with some diploma to continue to the university because I found out that I don’t like to work that much to be a chef.

Matthew Dols 2:25
It’s hard work.

Antonin Jirat 2:26
So it was kind of it pushed me to be something else a little bit, because it’s a very hard work. It’s kind of I was not in the army service. But I can imagine it’s similar or worse, even because it was very tough to me and I am much more sensitive guy than our chefs usually are tough guys. So So I start to put up with a lot of criticism every day all day like yesterday, should they should is the point of the work to be perfect. Because that’s nice work in the moment that you failed the customers since coming back. And you’re what what’s going to happen

Matthew Dols 3:07
is very reputation is ruined. Close your business. Yeah, yes. Yeah. All right. So you see left there. And then did you did you do formal art training?

Antonin Jirat 3:16
Yes, I don’t 18 I, I start to take photography a lot. I start to I start to attending some some attended some courses for photography. So I do I did, like black and white photography in dark, dark room in my home. So everybody was based little bit because it smells dirty, smelly, but I love it. And then I continue to the university. I tried. And I studied new media, which was nice. to, to found to find out that it’s possible to study what what would I like? So I kind of had a different experience when I was teenager, and then I don’t know, I was looking for something what I like, and I

Matthew Dols 4:12
were all looking for something we like,

Antonin Jirat 4:14
maybe I mean, I started

Matthew Dols 4:16
my career as being an artist, then I went to being a teacher now I’m doing podcasts like you we’re constantly evolving with new interest, new techniques, new technologies,

Antonin Jirat 4:27
with to try anything. Anytime.

Matthew Dols 4:30
You got to keep up with things you gave him. He can’t stay stagnant because then you’ll just get sort of rolled over by the next generation or the next movement or whatever. So you have to be always willing and able to evolve a little bit. Yeah, so you’re my first It’s very nice. You’re my first photographer actually, like I’m a photographer background and you’re actually out of all the people I’ve had the chance to talk to. You’re the first person who maybe you’re not a photographer but you that you even use photography.

Antonin Jirat 4:59
Yeah. I I do First up, I tried to be studied. I like I had two choice. One was intermedia and second was photography, and I had photographic in the first place. But they didn’t make it. So I went to the new media. And I started in the first year to do object mostly, which was something very interesting to me, because it’s option, the media objects, very nice option to do anything somehow huge. Somehow, to my imagination, really real, let’s say it’s not frame it, but it’s object. So I, I was really fascinated with this kind of approach. And let’s say I’m not sure if I’m photographer, I, sometimes I’m doing photography for a living, and I’m exhibiting photography a lot now, but it’s, it’s it’s depends. It depends. I using it as a medium. And as medium, which is useful for some some, for some use. I’d say it depends on case. Or how do I feel? What I feel it has to be how it has to be. I don’t know how to say, like, executed? I don’t, I

Matthew Dols 6:24
don’t know. Sure the most appropriate way to express your idea.

Antonin Jirat 6:27
Yes.

Matthew Dols 6:28
So you use photography, but like so let’s let’s say you’re out on the streets, and you were talking to somebody and they said, Oh, what do you do? What you What would be your answer? Like, what’s the elevator pitch the short and sweet thing that

Antonin Jirat 6:40
CMI visual artists, it’s simple. And visual artists, which, who used mostly object and photographic, which is kind of topic to me, like object and photography is very usual that I’m working on installation and installation is considered from photography, and one object, for example, to object, whatever. So I usually do this combinations, which is very, I don’t know, it gives me some, some enough space to, to express what I what I need to say or to, to say what I need to say.

Matthew Dols 7:19
So when you’re working, so we’re currently in your studio, which is kind of set up more than what I would say is more like a graphic design studio. It’s this is very technological, is not your traditional sort of painter studio, big, open spaces and lots of dirt and stuff everywhere. So when you’re creating your works, is it primarily digital, and you sort of build the concept up and then you sort of an only once there’s a time and a place to install it, then you’ll actually sort of manifest all of the objects ness of it all.

Antonin Jirat 7:51
Like my process, like, I’m very curious about idea, let’s say, I like conceptual approach, I really like. But also I like really much visual part of the work. So it’s kind of a combination, because I’m very interested in conceptual art, but I’m not satisfied with just conceptual art. So I always insist very much unformed on some new ideas, idia ideas about the form forms, for example, for object, I really love to use strange material. And I think our material which I which I want to try, at least because it’s for me, it is for me, in this moment, when I pick up some material, it is new, for example, it could be very new experience for me. And it could be risk, also, which which I really like, but maybe I’m now neither answering another questions. I don’t know. No, but the process somehow like so. So I have idea, then I’m continuing on working, I think very necessary is to work not just theoretically, but also physically, or it’s depend, depend on work of kind of work objects I’m doing usually by my hand, but photography, it’s, it’s very, like a great idea of photography, then took the photograph in the right way as I wanted, and then I’ll use to print it, you know, so it’s much more different work than with objects. And

Matthew Dols 9:29
don’t get me wrong. I come from the background of a new genre. background, my MFA is a new genre from the San Francisco Art Institute. And my professors explained it to me, it’s basically the idea of multimedia, interdisciplinary, all these kinds of things. But it’s the the core of it is is basically you come up with a strong idea and then you use whatever medium is necessary to express that idea. So, you know, like when I graduated I, I would describe myself as a photographer, but I made a book physical book like literally like bookmaking, and this was early on in digital technology. So I did digital printing, I did letterpress, I actually like him, you know, embossed and letterpress, my own text into the book, did all these different kinds of processes, because it was the most appropriate way to express the idea kind of thing. So, so I get the idea of what I want out of the way you work. What I’m interested in is, how do you sort of support that, like, I come from a background of artists that you they produce an object, they take it to a gallery, they exhibited, they sell it, they get money, they make more? now working in the way you work, that it’s not as easy for people to purchase this. So there’s not really an object too much to purchase. So how do you find funds, grants residencies? Like, how do you keep the process going above and beyond creating, and having the opportunity to exhibit work that doesn’t really fit into that traditional art, sales purchase money, transaction kind of business model?

Antonin Jirat 11:11
So if you’re asking if I can live from photography and objects itself, it’s very difficult to sell something in check. I think general, it’s very small market. But sometime, sometime, I have lucky or someone wants to buy something, but my living is not supported by this for sure. Not. Right. So So there is this option of residencies. And, of course, it’s it is very big, always contest here. So the residency I attended, I’m attending, sometimes I’m successful sometime not.

Matthew Dols 11:50
You’re in a residency right now.

Antonin Jirat 11:52
No, no, no, no, no. It’s very, I think, and now I’m not that much interested in residency is, for example, because I have a family. And have you done residency? So

Matthew Dols 12:04
yes, I did. And what you give me some a little bit of some experiences of residencies. I’ve never done one. I admit, I might have done one. But

Antonin Jirat 12:11
I made a few, not much. But it is a very nice thing. Because you are supported, you have money, you have, let’s say, one month or, or someone has a longer residence for three months. And you have a time to do do your stuff, which is nice. So I, I made a few, I’d say three, for example, that it is nothing almost. But yeah, but I think it’s tricky kind of the residences, because if you want to live from some money from residency, that means that you are going all the time on residency, which is kind of I sink. I say, I don’t like it that much. Or maybe if I used to be more on residency, maybe I’m not here now. I don’t know. I don’t know if but I know from friends who are on residency all the time, that all the time on the way, it’s nice, but still in movement, which is nice. But never mind this, maybe you have to get out? I don’t know. No.

Matthew Dols 13:25
Why would I have to cut it out now. So this is the point. The story that these stories are the things that I’m looking for. This is what I’m because so so because the thing is, is this is a Okay, so you’re here you’re working in your studio, you apply for grants and residencies, and whatever other things and also apply to open calls. And yeah, do you have certain successes and certain things that are difficult, whatever, you know, you know, like, for me, my most the one sort of bane of my existence is whenever somebody says, Oh, yes, please write about your artwork. Like, I hate writing about my most painful thing that I ever have to do. So So the question is, sort of, you know, what, have you ever like hired somebody to help you? Or do you? Do you hire a writer?

Antonin Jirat 14:16
Like I have friends? creators? Of course.

Matthew Dols 14:20
Not Of course, not, of course, it like, most artists in the world do not have curator friends that are gonna help.

Antonin Jirat 14:26
I have made a few projects, where I attended friends to write me into text about the project, which is very helpful, which is great. But usually, honestly, I’m doing all these proposals on the last minute, and nobody has time. Because some still doing something still working. And suddenly I Oh, it’s deadline. Wow. Let’s read. Let’s put it on the papers. On one paper sometime, just

Matthew Dols 14:57
yeah. And these days, they’re asking for sure. Ordering short, shorter,

Antonin Jirat 15:00
shorter, which is better of course. And, but I prefer to work with some with curators, which is very nice that they give you a feedbacks, they give you a new look on your work. And they they are very able to write, which is very, very good. And I like to write too much about my work. I’m not that it’s too, too much subjective. I think I like like, when my friend or colleague write about it, it’s much more clear. Yeah. No, I long time. I didn’t do this, actually. But I have to. It’s good. It’s good point. Thank you.

Matthew Dols 15:45
Well, I mean, this is something that comes up again and again, because like, I’m a teacher, and I talk to students, they’re like, how do you get grants? How do you get residency, and then they go, and they look at these applications. And they’re like, they just sit there, like, I was taught how to make art, I wasn’t taught how to write about art, per se. But specifically, I was definitely not taught how to write about my own art. Like that, that was just not something that was worried about, but now it’s very important to be able to do that, like that, that we’re talking about my art, I can talk about my art till the end of time, that’s fine. But to be able to eloquently and succinctly make a nice short statement, that’s very clear, and, and understandable. That’s really hard.

Antonin Jirat 16:29
But usually I describe my work very general. Like I work with photography, I really like object, and I really insist on ideas like, and they are these topics like, mates.

Matthew Dols 16:46
What are you what are your main topics when you in your work,

Antonin Jirat 16:49
I think mostly is very much about the media itself. I think about photography. Now, for example, this last year, I’m working on one project, which is very photographic. The final work is photography, but also it’s it is about the object about the above the above the median of objects in the so I tried to put object and photography into the photographic medium, but it’s difficult maybe to explain it without the picture, but I’m very curious about it. And I’m still working on so basically, it is really about the medium, or about the geometry. For example, it’s about geometry. Yeah. But by the use of objects like for example here you can see Muscat Muscat not not max not max

Matthew Dols 17:40
the one podcast can’t see this but we’ll post a picture of his work website.

Antonin Jirat 17:45
So basically it’s it’s it is object from nut Max, and nutmeg. It’s very for me it’s very subjective. The It is very Holocene again it’s very strong and danger area lose very much, very much I have experienced so I can tell you real way I can give you IP.

Matthew Dols 18:06
I always joke. I when I when I was growing up, I did my share of drugs for sure. And we always joked that nutmeg was a hallucinogenic

Antonin Jirat 18:16
danger. And, and also, it’s, it’s, it was fascinate me as a construction material. So So somehow it works for me as a as a really materialistic stuff, which has its its meanings and you don’t have to you can you can do any any object in any shape, which I really like and it has meaning for me, for example, so this was also last last year, and I quit it now. I don’t like it that much anymore, or I like it, but I’m fluid, but it’s a lot about a mate and different consciousness, let’s say about some new experience on your new consciousnesses. It’s very I think it’s very interesting to me to like mate and go got let’s say and religion. It’s sometimes very often in my work, maybe it looks it it confy I’m confusing you now but I really like Don’t be that much. Let’s say dry or that much minimalistic. Let’s say

Matthew Dols 19:22
you’re not minimalistic i’m not

Antonin Jirat 19:24
i’m not i don’t want to I don’t want so I always try to find some disappointing this idea to make geometrical stone but not from for example narrow tube, I really like to make challenge to me to find idea which is which leads me to some new final piece of art should we all have that all of our all of our trials and errors and failures lead us to some next fad, but it’s tricky kind of sometimes I’m risking in front of me but I really like this, I’m kind of excited about it to discover a lot to discover new approach for me,

Matthew Dols 20:07
let’s go back a little bit to the sort of the business of kind of the whole thing like, how do you so you have to have a full time job in order to basically help to subsidize you. So do you see it as you have to have a job to subsidize your art? Or do you do your art outside of your job? Which one defined you your your Oh, job that makes your money or your creative endeavors?

Antonin Jirat 20:31
My artistic practice? define me? I’m, I do I have to work to support my family as a first time. This is the first woman.

Matthew Dols 20:41
Yeah, that’s an interesting balance to have. It

Antonin Jirat 20:44
is crucial, kind of, and it’s because I’m working in advertising advertising company, and I’m doing video editing. I’m kind of happy about this work, because I don’t have to create the idea of advertisement, which is really, I believe brainwashing. For artists. I can see it on myself. Like it’s very tough sometime, to switch after the work to go to studio and work on an exhibition. It’s very, very strange moment. Like, you have to be different kind of

Matthew Dols 21:17
Sure. Yeah. commercial advertising is a very different mindset than

Antonin Jirat 21:21
I was afraid Oh, but I’m okay with it. It’s fine. It’s fine job. And I don’t want to do with her life for sure. But now I’m doing first half a year.

Matthew Dols 21:34
That’s not that long.

Antonin Jirat 21:35
So let’s start. There’s nothing. And now also, I’m, I’m happy about my situation now that I can still do art, I found out it’s possible, which is great. If time to familiar, so what else? It’s okay. There is maybe some more aspects about advertisement, which is not that much nice. But it’s very romantic. I found out to be now it’s kind of comfortable to me. Because if you are interesting, I can continue because before I was working in, I was working as a freelancer this stuff, it is much more tough because nobody pay you.

Matthew Dols 22:13
Wait, you were working as a freelance, what?

Antonin Jirat 22:16
Video Producer or video editor.

Matthew Dols 22:18
Okay. And why did it so and this this whole scenario of like, how do you juggle of work, creative thing and a family life? This is very interesting. To me. And I think to some people, what was difficult about the the being a freelancer and how old how old your child,

Antonin Jirat 22:37
she is a one year and four months. Okay,

Matthew Dols 22:41
so this is really so so having your child new for you. Really, okay, you know, these choices are probably all coming about because of you being married and suddenly having a child and now they’re different different stresses that are sort of placed upon you because of that. Why? Why did you choose to be a freelancer? And then what were some of the problems with being a freelancer?

Antonin Jirat 23:01
But well, freelancing is working. It’s great, because you have lots of time you have good money, you can support your art practice. You don’t have to attend every every open call. You don’t have to kind of really Freelancer let’s say you’re really free money for your family. But it’s not true. Usually. Usually it works like they don’t pay you because they have a delay, or you have some extra expending, let’s say, yeah. And so now I’m I told my friends that I’m kind of on vacation, and advertising company.

Matthew Dols 23:39
Sure,

Antonin Jirat 23:39
it’s good, it’s good. Let’s say it’s okay. I was I was really afraid of

Matthew Dols 23:44
being a freelancer of any sort of creative industry is really tough. I mean, I’ve been a freelancer off and on through my career whenever I need to be or want to be. And it’s, it’s competitive, it’s cutthroat like you, you end up having to like, sell your soul in many ways, because you have to, you have to undercut and go to a lower price. Because if you don’t go to a lower price, you’ll get some work. But so if you have high priced, you’ll get some work. If you go to a lower price, you’ll have more work, but it’s almost sometimes too much work for the amount of money you’re charging. And so it ends up being this like it’s a horrible, it’s it’s contemporary issue, because 20 years ago, it wasn’t like this because like a professional videographer was a professional, they went to school, they were trained, they had very high quality equipment. These days, equipment is cheap, you can learn how to do most of this stuff. You know, so like, a lot of people who just buy a nice camera think they’re videographers but they’re really not. But then they’re competing with you who has expertise and professional equipment. And, and that’s that’s, that’s tough. I mean that The Times have changed, it’s made it much more difficult to be freelance because there’s just a massive glut of people that think they can do it.

Antonin Jirat 25:10
Yeah, that’s true. And, for example, a lot of my friends and I used to do also teaching on the school, it’s, it’s a very good option, let’s say to do work you like, and teach art, in high school or university, isn’t that good salary, but still has something horrible salary, whatever, I know, I left this also, and it was terrible. But still, it was nice job, which makes some nice values.

Matthew Dols 25:41
I love teaching, I love the act of teaching. If academia could get rid of the administration, then then academia, the act of teaching, being in a classroom and working with students is fabulous. Being in your office and working with your bosses and your co workers. That’s not the fun part of it by any stretch. And unfortunately, most of the time and energy you put into it ends up being the administrative work instead of the actual teaching work.

Antonin Jirat 26:11
Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah. But But this kind of work is very, very necessary, I think. So. If you’re a high school teacher, I found out I have a good salary I found out not University,

Matthew Dols 26:26
they have to be there five days a week. So yes,

Antonin Jirat 26:28
that’s the point. They don’t have time for anything else.

Matthew Dols 26:34
Something I didn’t ask you actually, how old are you?

Antonin Jirat 26:35
I’m 34.

Matthew Dols 26:37
Now you talk a lot about the small market here in the Czech Republic small I keep saying the word markets most small scene, small art scene that it’s very close knit, a lot of people know each other. So are you getting out of the Czech Republic and exhibiting or are you still primarily just in this community?

Antonin Jirat 26:57
Primarily, I’m here, mostly, I’m exhibiting mostly in Czech Republic. But sometimes I’m exhibiting abroad.

Matthew Dols 27:06
somewhere.

Antonin Jirat 27:08
Last time, it was in Bratislava in Slovakia, with my friend, the National bar. And also one of my work was in Athens group show, Athens, Greece in the house and art, or some Belgium sometime one, whatever we’re battling, it’s very random, let’s say

Matthew Dols 27:30
well, that’s what I’m trying to get to is is like, so if you’re sitting here and you’re making your work, where do you do who opportunities sort of come in front of you? Or do you actively try to say okay, I want I believe my work will represent well in x market, you know, London, Paris, Berlin, Munich, whatever, like so do you seek out a market for your work or do just no opportunities

Antonin Jirat 27:54
for Ron’s new job waiting for opportunities? And I have some contacts friends are both usually i’m i’m, i’m not active to send portfolio somewhere or to contact someone. I’m not that much up to this honestly. But they are like always some people who you meet and talk to them and you meet them you talk to them, you show them the portfolio sometimes they call you back sometime not It depends. It’s very an icing it’s very, very natural process. So I never want to push anybody to to I have a job I have a portfolio here

Matthew Dols 28:40
which is interesting. I’ve been meeting a lot of people recently and a lot of a lot of artists are giving me catalogs or fully printed materials Yeah. Is this is this I don’t have it. Okay the one but I have

Antonin Jirat 28:52
the upside of course. Well, okay. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 28:54
Which we will link to in the in the show notes. But the the question though is is like is that something is that a an older thing? Is that like a previous generation thing like has it has the printed catalog gone? Is it time pastor to do you think they’re they’re still important to do?

Antonin Jirat 29:11
I think it’s uh, it is. I never think about it honestly, to make catalog because I will be happy to have a catalog by the some occasion. But to make a printed portfolio I used to do this. I used to have a I even it was not qatal it was portfolio very nice printed very expensive, but you sent usually I send it somewhere and nobody returned to me. Really so because it’s you send it far away whatever. But I don’t have a catalog and I don’t know if all my friends is a catalog. Most people have a have a website. That’s fundamental and printed portfolio would be nice or some some nice catalog for exhibition. It’s very like It’s possible. It’s it’s made me that that’s what you get maybe often time. But

Matthew Dols 30:06
according to my friends, not much people printing some some book also you bring up website. So websites and social media to me sort of all fit together like the amount of time and effort that we all put into, you know, curating our entire careers into a single website, and then all our social media. Do you use social media? A lot?

Antonin Jirat 30:28
Instagram, for sure. I like Instagram is good. It’s only social media I really use. I enjoy it. Honestly. That’s it, and I have a website. And yeah, that’s it. And Facebook is, I think kind of out. It’s good for events. So I really love Instagram, because it’s very good. It is very good source for informations. Also, for my presentation is I’m using just a website and Instagram that said, Do you see that

Matthew Dols 30:58
as like public relations for you? So it’s basically your advertising is your way of getting your work out in front of viewers? Has it had any discernible positive feedback for you? Could you say like, Oh, yeah, I got this exhibition because of I posted this on Instagram, or, or I sold this piece, because I put it on my URLs on my website,

Antonin Jirat 31:20
sometimes happens somehow, sometimes appear of my work in some block, you know, have this on some on some blocks a block of Contemporary Art sometimes Blake on me on Instagram, did somebody write with me? Say how to say, duck tag?

Matthew Dols 31:39
I mean, the question I’m trying to get to is like, I should maybe I should ask nice, I’ll ask a more fundamental question. For you. What would be a definition of being successful?

Antonin Jirat 31:53
Oh, my gosh. Successful? It’s good question. It’s crazy question.

Matthew Dols 31:59
It’s a difficult question. Yeah.

Antonin Jirat 32:00
It’s First of all, I think that there is a lot of successful moments, let’s say, and somebody is happy to make nice, nice work with he is or she is happy. And that’s the success for him for she but to be successful, like, from art. I’m one thing. Jeff Koons. Okay, something like this. You mean, it’s very rare? And I don’t know, I’m not that kind of successful artists.

Matthew Dols 32:31
Don’t put yourself down that. You don’t have a long life ahead of you.

Antonin Jirat 32:34
I don’t know. I don’t put myself down. I am absolutely according to my opinion about me. So I am successful, because I’m kind of happy now. I’m absolutely okay. I have lots of work to do. I mean, work. My artistic practice, I have a lot of to do, which is fundamental for me to do something. And I have some time to do happiness, my success, and the exhibition is exercising, when you have an exhibition, it’s good for me, I’m kind of in a different mode than if I’m working just for studio. For my sketches. It’s nice to have idea about to create stuff is fundamental for me. So it’s kind of success to to create a job. And the most successes, if you ask if you if you say somebody likes it. It’s nice feeling, of course, but it’s not essential icing. And there is a second question, if you are selling it, maybe and if I have something, sometimes I sell something, I’m really happy. It’s just it’s very rare, but sometimes it’s happened and it’s good, of course,

Matthew Dols 33:38
a long scope of your career. Yes. Let’s say you’re at the end of your life, and you’re back what what would be what would have been the thing that said, You know, I did that successfully? Uh huh.

Antonin Jirat 33:55
I don’t know.

Matthew Dols 33:56
What cuz I

Antonin Jirat 33:58
mean, is good question, if I will, now that this is the end of my life, you know,

Matthew Dols 34:02
well, no, I mean, because it The idea is that I’m looking for is, what do you have, like a quantifiable goal, like, you know, like, they always talk about like, oh, have a gold exam, have something you’re going towards kind of thing. It could be anything from being represented by a particular gallery that you that you really admire and respect, it could be having work in a particular Museum, having a retrospective, you know, being big enough to even met, you know, be able to have a retrospective, being in the art history books, literally being an example, from an artist, g book. These are the kinds of things that I’ve had conversations with people.

Antonin Jirat 34:43
Funny question, I really like it because it’s kind of itchy, I think.

Matthew Dols 34:48
Yeah, well, you know, what, like, I used to it’s kind

Antonin Jirat 34:51
of, it’s kind of attack of ego. Very nice.

Matthew Dols 34:57
Well, that when I was I remember being in high school, and I was talking My friend, Billy when I was a kid, and we joked that we’d get back together when I was 50 years old having a retrospective of my work at the Guggenheim, who,

Antonin Jirat 35:10
who said,

Matthew Dols 35:10
You I said that saying that? They would they he and I would find each other again, when I was 50 years old. And we were having an eye and we were at my retrospective in the Guggenheim. Now, I’m currently 45. So I don’t see it happening anytime soon. If

Antonin Jirat 35:25
I feel like I see, this question is very somehow itchy. And it is. I think it’s kind of drop. Yeah, it’s dropped, this is dropped. And I think, if I will have something like retrospect, in the Guggenheim Museum, I will be really happy. Of course, yeah. But what, what can I tell you, you know, it’s, it’s like this, I will be happy. But right. But I will work. I hope I will hoard this my success. I think like, you just have to if I can work, because it’s this is the most difficult things to have a time to work, I found out it’s very difficult to make origin or that the work really happened as you want. It’s very, very nice moment. And it’s for me, like, secondary, this question of where it will be in 20 years, or 10 years? I don’t know. Really, it’s it is kind of tricky. And I know many people who are now 60 are really disappointed from their career. And they don’t have a reason to be disappointed because they are successful, but they are disappointed. Oh, my God, complaining a lot. And it’s good to see this kind of mirror to myself. And only thing I can tell you on this question is, I hope, I hope I will be not in this in this mood, and I will be 65 I’ll be

Matthew Dols 36:54
sure you don’t want to be that the grumpy old guy going on. I should have done better I could

Antonin Jirat 36:58
have done better. Yeah, it’s very difficult. I think it’s difficult. I cannot pretend

Matthew Dols 37:03
is I think this is a cultural difference because I in and maybe it’s just even my family or where I was raised or whatever it was, but I believe it’s sort of more of an American thing. In America, we’re sort of taught we’re encouraged to sort of put ourselves first and, and really should shoot for the stars, like we can be anything we want to be. And we should push to be the best we could possibly be. Like, I often had a thing that I say when my students come into classroom, every single student that walks into my classroom has the potential to be the best in the world. I agree. But they have to put the work in.

Antonin Jirat 37:40
Yeah, that’s it. I have the same experience in my students. When I was assistant in the studio photography in FAMU, and they’re there there are lots of nice people that are great. When they come to school, they were sure that they want to be artists or photographer or whatever. But our study was artists to do contemporary art, let’s say it’s cost plus conceptual photography, but it’s referred to the contemporary art and photography and the title reference reference. And I think that was very much always painful for many people to to make Berg really like to work on it, you know, to just just have an idea and make it somehow to execute it somehow.

Matthew Dols 38:32
Chess the game Chester, there’s an old saying when you play chess, every move should be an attack on the king, no matter how minor the move. So the idea would be that if you if you’re making art, you have some goal that you’re trying to achieve and so every task you do every exhibition you have every curator you meet every space you exhibit in is somehow getting you to some King Yep. So what’s the your king? What’s your your your pinnacle of your career? What’s the thing you’re that’s driving you that like, Yes, I want to accomplish this thing.

Antonin Jirat 39:09
It is different places it is to work still continue in my work. Don’t make some gap. But if it will be if I will feel to make some posts for me, it’s essential to work still on some on some new pieces, some new ideas. So this is my this is my Pinnacle. And I think it’s it could be a damn then it could be some Pinnacle Pinnacle, if I will. If I will stop working on it. Then there will be no Pinnacle or me no shows there will be no work. I will be not happy with it. And I think it’s kind of obsession maybe or I really love to do some art. It’s very simple. So so so the pinnacle for me It could be anything Finally I don’t No, it’s very tough question. But

Matthew Dols 40:03
you have a good answer for it. Let me let me see if I’m trying to translate later, like, interpreted my

Antonin Jirat 40:07
without tell it to people

Matthew Dols 40:09
won’t know about what I’m trying to figure it out. I’m trying to interpret it through my mind to try and sort of create a thing. Like, basically what you’re what I’m what I’m hearing, is that the pinnacle of your creative idea, like the thing you’re driving most towards is the comfort, the stability to be able to continue to produce throughout the rest of your life.

Antonin Jirat 40:34
Yeah, or Yeah, being

Matthew Dols 40:37
able maybe also be

Antonin Jirat 40:38
interested. And maybe it will be I will be happy to don’t work in the advertising company, this my aims, you know, really, to race race, my, my daughter, and have enough sources to do what I like, let’s say this is the this is the point, I think, and the rest is just cherry, you know, on the on the on the cake. And if I’m right, I think many many of my friends have the same have the same feelings. It’s always complaining. And it’s normal, unfortunately. But maybe in the time. No, we will see. But this is my Pinnacle, I think. Okay, when it will be perfectly mobile, I will be definitely happy. And it will be nice.

Matthew Dols 41:25
That’s fine. All right. So do you currently have work with any galleries?

Antonin Jirat 41:29
Yeah, I have a show or you mean gallery? Like, if I’m if I’m represented by gallery?

Matthew Dols 41:35
That was my question. But like you answered however you want.

Antonin Jirat 41:38
Yeah, I’m represented by in Prague by by gallery stone project, which is one year, and two months old gallery, which is kind of beginning still. It’s a small gallery. But nice man. And currently, I have a show in photograph gallery in Prague. And then there will be lots of projects, until the end of this year, do you desire to be represented by a gallery, like,

Matthew Dols 42:03
I’m always interested, again, with my background, like, like, I have the desire to have a gallery represent me because I don’t want to do all the work of you know, finding collectors and trying to do sales. And I was like, I would love to have a representative whether that’s a gallery or a consultant or a manager, whatever the person is, but like, some business person to run my business affairs. Yeah. So like, it’s not a desire of yours.

Antonin Jirat 42:31
Yeah, it’s nice to be part of, of this gallery, is give me a nice background backup,

Matthew Dols 42:37
if you could think of another market that you think would be a good market like so your let’s say you’re, you’re you’re building your career here, you’ve got a nice reputation here. What market would be the next market that you believe is the right place for you to take your work?

Antonin Jirat 42:52
As a commercial market? You mean? No. It

Matthew Dols 42:55
could be just like, you know what, westing is a place with some great museums or strong curators or great art scene. That scene is not a commercial. Yes. Early

Antonin Jirat 43:05
to be part of some scene. Oh, yeah. I think so. What scene?

Matthew Dols 43:09
Yeah, always interesting. I keep using the word market, you interpret it when I say the market is Yeah,

Antonin Jirat 43:14
okay. Okay. I really have a nice connection with the with the Greek scene, for example, it’s very nice. Greek, Greek is attempt scene is very nice. I really love it. And it’s kind of different approach. For example, compared to Czech scene, for example, Czech scene, or market is very focused to the west and we are comparing us after the revolution is very normal context of our scene icing, and art art, its itself is globalized very much by the internet. So there are not that much borders around the globe, or around the western Western world, I think mostly, but I realized in Greece is something absolutely different. Somehow, like, summary row row approach, which is very close, row, or somehow it’s somehow very true, that I feel that some some really authentic, authentic truth of the place of the people, very much poetic works. Artists think very much in a poetic way. It’s very strong scene, I think, very much on autumn. I will, I will have a November show in in Prague and my friend Alex Papa Korea’s will be creator of the show. He’s a creator from Greece. So so I really like this scene. If I can mention some other one I really like German scene. For example. Germany is a big country. Yeah, the whole country. But no, I mean, like, seen abroad like Germany like Berlin. We’ve been here before.

Matthew Dols 44:57
I’ve been hearing that like Berlin is very different than France. Frankfurt and Munich in the same country that they have very different scenes, it’s by

Antonin Jirat 45:04
just a few few experience. And I really like it somehow I appreciate it.

Matthew Dols 45:11
Which one all of them?

Antonin Jirat 45:14
We try and I don’t know. I don’t make a difference. Okay, so you, but Berlin, for example, and the openings there, if I have a time, or we have a time to go there, and we are going to some gallery small one bigger one, it has kind of, it’s close from Prague. It’s very, very nice. That is so close.

Matthew Dols 45:35
Yeah. My own

Antonin Jirat 45:37
study. And it’s very Yeah, I know, to get up there we go there. And it’s very influential place.

Matthew Dols 45:45
I’ve never been Berlin in my life actually. Never know. Yeah, I’ve been a lot of places but that I have never quite made it to Berlin proper authenticity and certificates of authenticity and things along this line in the mean, these days, it’s so easy to fake things and steal things and do forgeries. I mean, is this something that you ever think about or worry about? I never,

Antonin Jirat 46:10
never think about it to make a copy of my objects is very difficult. And if somebody will, wants to make a copy, let’s say it’s not difficult, but want to see the person who won’t want to do it, actually.

Matthew Dols 46:24
So, but you’re on the forgeries,

Antonin Jirat 46:26
but I will be happy if somebody will fake my my work

Matthew Dols 46:32
is a form of flattery,

Antonin Jirat 46:33
but the photography, you can very easily copy it if you steal it. From the digital source. Of course, we were talking before the recording this part, it is very moment, which is very everybody knows this. Everybody ready. Second one has a cloud, Google Cloud or whatever, you know, it’s gonna be hacked. And I have a story a little bit about this kind of situation, you were hacked, it’s opposite. I hacked and I made a photographic theory or object theory is both like, let’s say like I do photography and objects from from digital pictures I found with my with my wife on the beach in Greece, I think two years or three years ago, we found some SD SD card on the beach. Among the

Matthew Dols 47:26
lurex. When you show this I was a little worried because I lost an SD card here in Prague one time. And I still have never found it to this day, and I’m on

Antonin Jirat 47:33
their websites, their websites, you can if you find some files, you can put there the picture and you say I found it here. And the person who is looking for the SD card can look at the website and try to find his his picture. Um, but I didn’t do this. I found this SD card and they were like couple on the honeymoon cruising around the claddagh Islands. And they were really romantic pictures, even pornographic pictures very personal pictures, which I was kind of shocked and there’s also very pornographic stuff. I video pornographic stuff. And I was dealing with this in this work and it’s very interesting and I tried to make a little research to find them and I finally decided to don’t find them because there is a picture also of their motorcycle with the plates you know, so somehow it may be possible to find them but the content so let’s say like, personal that I was not sure how to how they will react or but it’s kind of dilemma. I don’t know it’s not finished yet, but

Matthew Dols 48:48
I will see that that’s interesting. Yeah, I mean the issues of it’s close to see and approve and even appropriation because

Antonin Jirat 48:55
I titled it the work homework as the title is Meanwhile in the mirror, because the on the one picture is the That guy is watching into the mirror, but you can see his face but you see him from his back you see and the mirror but you don’t see him naked from the front in the end. You see just in the mirror not to be superficial but we’re like where these people are attractive

Matthew Dols 49:24
or they

Antonin Jirat 49:26
know they are like no like they are attractive. Like now like a couple around 40

Matthew Dols 49:33
A for being 40 doesn’t make you unattractive? Yeah, I know that that

Antonin Jirat 49:37
I’m almost 40 so

Matthew Dols 49:40
and reasonably attractive guy.

Antonin Jirat 49:42
Yeah. And it is like this approach to this work is very fun and you find something and you say like what to do with it if I shall bring it back to the people and finally I decided to don’t send them and I try to work with it which is kind of challenge to don’t make kind of Maybe cliche or somehow I was afraid to work with it, I think, because Meanwhile in the mirror, so it’s mean like, meanwhile, you are watching, you are reaching into the mirror, you are watching yourself somebody is maybe stealing your data, you know, data or, for example or so. So I think there is a kind of triangle between, between those to me as artists, and also between you as an audience, as a potential person who will lose the data to you know,

Matthew Dols 50:34
I’m sure they’re one of my favorite series of works was Sophie cows or Yeah, where she followed the people around like that whole sort of Lenny’s seeing, but not seeing observing, but not observing, like,

Antonin Jirat 50:47
yeah, yeah, it’s nice. So create, I create objects, they are like tubes from the pictures, and you can break the object and watch into on the really hardcore pictures. But it’s hidden in the in the, an object, I’m kind of afraid of some outer shape, but if somebody will still steal my work, and I will find it I will laughing to him. And if something will happen really wrong, of course, I will do some other steps. But but there’s

Matthew Dols 51:22
the question of appropriation.

Antonin Jirat 51:25
appropriation is not the thing, this process artistic practices. It’s, it’s it’s another another thing, no appropriation,

Matthew Dols 51:33
it is a thing? It’s a legal thing.

Antonin Jirat 51:36
I think it’s an ego in a way. I don’t know, this is a crucial topic. Of course,

Matthew Dols 51:42
I love it. I want to talk about it. Yeah, me, my work that I deny appropriate work that I’ve done an entire series of works like this one that I that I get to do, is actually using softcore pornography imagery. So I did so

Antonin Jirat 51:57
you download it,

Matthew Dols 51:58
I did download it. Yeah, I didn’t actually take the original pictures. But my manipulation of the pictures has has transcended its origin and turned it into something brand new. And if I remember correctly, in the at least in the United States, there, there was a judge. And there were all kinds of legal issues about appropriation. And the terminology that came out of it was a distinct artistic merit. So the the apparently, so if you take an original image, and an artist then does something to it, and they call it their own, there has to be a distinct artistic merit to the changes that are made so that it’s not exactly the same as the original images that have been appropriated. I’m always fascinated by these legal things. And I’m hoping to talk to a lawyer actually here in the in the EU, and try to find out the lot the intellectual property laws and these kinds of laws, because it’s an issue. I mean, they I mean, with I know of artists that are doing entire series of works, just using images off of Google Maps. Like, is that legal?

Antonin Jirat 53:06
I think it’s absolutely legal.

Matthew Dols 53:08
Do you think it’s legal or illegal?

Antonin Jirat 53:11
I think it’s legal. Actually, I don’t understand that much this this field of problematic of this of this problematic. But I think the main main point is if you want to do something, then do it. And to care for us on the first place about the law is is pity, you know, there are people that Oh, yeah, Richard Prince,

Matthew Dols 53:38
he did an entire exhibition of just images that he took off of Instagram. That’s Dutch. Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. That’s all Yeah, we just took a snapshot of a music gram and put it up as his own word, but this is other people’s imagery from Instagram, does that make it his?

Antonin Jirat 53:55
I think it’s logical continuing, or his work now, whole life work. Like he started with the advertising, retouched pictures, and now he’s able to up to date him to contemporary media, which is great. I like him. So it’s kind of make me more sure that it’s good work in general, or is of his life. And he’s able to update himself and his work, to, to work with Instagram, for example. So I kind of appreciate he’s evolving his comms. I

Matthew Dols 54:31
mean, he’s got the sort of the core concept that he’s been working on his whole life. And it’s a new theme, and it’s an evolution and he’s, you know, embracing new technologies and new ways of finding these images that he uses. I get all that. I’m not questioning Richard Prince as an artist, I’m questioning Is it okay to take somebody else’s images and then just basically call them your own with very little chasing,

Antonin Jirat 54:57
this is his point to create this Question that’s so it’s successful and because of his Richard brains is powerful, I will do it. Maybe few people from around around me and are in Czech Republic and maybe somewhere few countries around maybe few people from the ask themselves is really good. But if Richard Prince do this is something much more bigger, much more much more.

Matthew Dols 55:29
In a new case,

Antonin Jirat 55:30
big Fluence, and it’s good, it’s making questions that’s that works. It’s good art, then well, let’s

Matthew Dols 55:35
try and sort of wind this all down. So I’ve got two final questions that I ask every single person, the first person, the first thing I generally ask is, if you were to give some advice to other aspiring artists, or anybody in the creative industry, that you’re sending them to be specific, some advice, either something that happened to you that you learned from a failure, or some success that you’ve had, that you believe other people might be able to learn from, or take into their creative practice or anything like that, you know, just like a good strong something, it could be just a story that somehow you think might help some people through, maybe through some tough times, or through some good times. You know, like, we all get a little self conscious, we all get scared, we all get depressed about our works, you know, so like, whatever you want some, something that’s distinctly sort of your words of advice to the the practicing artists

Antonin Jirat 56:36
most essential is to work and work like that you are enjoying the work, let’s it to do what you want. It’s the point of all work. And don’t don’t care about people, that’s good. I think, I think it’s good to don’t care that much about audience and care about yourself. If you are enough responsible to yourself to do responsible work, I don’t know how to say that. Art, icing is an awesome responsibility against the social, let’s say, I don’t you and I don’t know, I don’t want to make any advice. But I really like it to think about asking

Matthew Dols 57:16
for advice.

Antonin Jirat 57:18
It’s funny to give advice, but I realized this, this idea to, to don’t care about the audience that much, because I think art is kind of best job. If you have lucky and or you you are successful, and you can really live just from art, and you have the most freedom job you can have.

Matthew Dols 57:39
I do portfolio reviews for lens culture on their website, and I look at 1000s and 1000s of portfolios a month. And the for me what I’ve started, I’ve started to learn by simply having to look at all that work and then have to give feedback about it. That it, I find that a lot of people can easily pick up the technique of making beautiful images, like in this day and age with the technology available to us. It is He almost gotten to the point that it’s easy to make a beautiful image. What I’m finding that a lot of people younger people younger, to younger to the arts, and so it doesn’t mean their actual age, is that they’re not finding the concepts they’re not they’re not having a good remount

Antonin Jirat 58:31
fascinated by visual,

Matthew Dols 58:33
very fixated on the beautiful image. And they don’t have a good concept behind it a good reason for it the like I refer to it as the why, like, Why did you take that picture? And why should I care about it as a viewer? Like why should I be engaged in it? There’s a balancing act like you have to have the technical prowess, the technical skills, but you got to have an equal amount of that, that why that concept that that the intention that or else it’s just a pretty picture.

Antonin Jirat 59:06
It is true. It is a nice experience from exams. I will say how you got exams when you are entering the school entry exams. Usually at works 80 people have, like 80 people with three different works on genre works or free work and there were usually around 60 people with puppies, cats and sunsets are naked. I get a new picture ullery

Matthew Dols 59:37
image and people think and Larry is something artistic.

Antonin Jirat 59:42
This is a puppy but maybe it’s Irani. Maybe the puppy is made it because it was sometime it was so irrelevant, or strange or that we were like confused it almost Yeah, it was on purpose. And that’s

Matthew Dols 59:57
the thing is is like it’s it’s always

Antonin Jirat 1:00:00
He went through the second round, or she, and then maybe we were right, we were wrong, you know, you’re right, we were wrong, but that’s why I’m considered for me photography, as a just as a one option of media, because it has certain certain qualities, certain options, the visual, it must be really, for example, for me real, like erase the visibility of photography or to be more rough to john make that much retouch on whatever, because I really like it to use it as a medium, which which records something, you know, I really like somehow documentary documentary, because there is no other option maybe to the visual some some idea. So you go to take a picture of something which is real situation that some daily stuff, for example, can have new meanings, whatsoever. And it’s enough to just enough to pick a makeup picture, and good photography with some idea, but doesn’t have to be that much creative in a in a visual way. And on the other hand, you’re talking about the skills or this precise colors or framing, you know, the the composition portrait, it’s very useful to know it for commercial photography, when you want to live from it, it’s very necessary. So So I think the both things are like it, you have to know the, of course, you have to know this all of stuff like composition, colors, whatever, when sometimes I’m doing commercial shooting, and you have to be kind of kitsch,

Matthew Dols 1:01:36
because they appreciate it and they pay for it. This is the dark side of photography, of course, like any other work was when I’m teaching photography early on. And you know that photo one class kind of thing. I always tell the students is learn all the technical stuff, learn these layout things, the the triangles, the relationships of subject ground the compositions, because at a certain point in your career, whatever you’re going to want to break those rules. And the best way to be able to break a rule is to know why and how to use it well. So the learning that foundation of doing it well, I find to be very important. Like this is a problem I have with a lot of younger artists where they, they start taking pictures, or luckily not all artists, but young photographers, they start taking pictures and they jump right to abstraction. And I’m like, but you don’t know why or how to abstract because you haven’t actually proven that you know how to take a quality photo in the first place to then progress into abstraction of a thing. I feel like they were losing. Maybe we’re not losing. I mean, maybe maybe things are just speeding up so quickly, like still people are learning photography and how to take pictures so much faster, that they’re just getting there a lot faster than like when I was taught 30 some odd years ago, like where things just took longer. I mean, maybe it’s maybe I’m just getting old, maybe I’m outdated than like an old generation. And I need to catch up with the fact that like, this is the way it is now that people are learning these things faster. Shit. I think one of the aspects of this podcast is that I want to learn how the art industry works. Okay. And in the process of learning that my quantifiable goal is I would like to have a piece of my artwork exists on exhibition in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. So my question to everybody that I ask is, what is something I can do that will put me down the path to accomplish that goal? And whatever you tell me, I will do it.

Antonin Jirat 1:03:51
We will do it, I will do it.

Matthew Dols 1:03:53
I will incorporate it into the podcast, I will keep everybody updated on the project, the process of me following all the different encouragements and directions that all the different people are giving me.

Antonin Jirat 1:04:09
It’s gonna be really easy just to imagine you are in Prague, and suddenly they appear curators from Oman, who are looking for Czech photography, or Czech artists, because they are preparing some group show, which is focusing on Eastern Europe. It’s good to happened. And it happened actually here. And it’s like this. I think it is just about courses about the connections. But still, it’s up to the good work, I think. I don’t know Mama. I of course I know Mama. I don’t know people from ma have they are thinking about the collection about the exhibitions. But I can imagine that it could be very simple, by the way, and it’s like this like I think the art world. At least what I see around Me and my friends were exhibiting in the big exhibitions abroad with like stars, it is much more it is a lot I think about communication and connections with with abroad from people abroad about it some creators, but it’s a one way but the second way could be just simple luck that someone is arriving to your city with interesting some some greater which is in Prague very often you will do a portfolio review and they call you in half a year and they want to be able to have it have you on the show. It’s good happened and and of course it’s like about to be active for sure. You cannot stay on the cottage and don’t know are you can of course it’s up to you. But of course nobody will know about you, which will be very busy because your work will be beautiful and stunning. But if nobody know you, then nobody will call you

Matthew Dols 1:05:56
meanie, basically it gets down to the old The old saying about the you know, the the arts world is about who you know, and you literally just have to be there. It’s out of sight, out of mind kind of thing. Like, if people don’t see you, they’re not going to remember that your work. You just have to physically be there to remind people I mean, I know a guy I know a photographer that he lives, about half a year here in Prague and half a year in London. And every now and then he has to fly back to London just to go into the offices of his clients and just remind them hey, you know, I’m available still, I think it mean, no matter how much the internet is great and all that an email is not going to encourage somebody to work with you, or anything like that as much as coffee would or a conversation over a beer or anything like this that really puts a personal connection between you and that other person. I mean, still all goes back to personal connections. Yeah, relationships.

Antonin Jirat 1:06:56
Still, it could be like this case of Microsoft he, you know him, Miroslav tissue.

Matthew Dols 1:07:01
I love his word

Antonin Jirat 1:07:02
love is right here. And nobody knows him. Since you now you do know. And yes, I have to have his book on Switzerland collector found him somehow. I don’t remember write the story. But he was

Matthew Dols 1:07:17
there was a video about it. Actually. Yeah, I

Antonin Jirat 1:07:19
started a long time ago. Yeah. But this is the absolutely without any. Yeah, I don’t have any recipe. So it’s about the work itself. And him. Of course,

Matthew Dols 1:07:31
yeah, maybe he was a little off. Maybe he’s not normal. He, but he was fantastic. I mean, he built his own cameras literally like me throwing trash. These fabulous.

Antonin Jirat 1:07:44
I really like his work.

Matthew Dols 1:07:45
I think it’s I think, I think his ingenuity and his like me. He just literally found trash and made a camera. And then like developed his own film and made his own prints. And he had no training and no background. He had no money hidden the Nazi

Antonin Jirat 1:08:01
he was but he finds their origin.

Matthew Dols 1:08:04
I believe I saw some paintings in his in that documentary, but like, he’s fascinating, man. I think it’s fascinating. But but that goes back to the connections part. Because the reason why people know about him now is because somehow, and I don’t know how it happened. That Swiss guy met him. That connection if that connection had never been made, he may have died and all of his stuff may have been thrown in the trash and nobody would ever know.

Antonin Jirat 1:08:30
But I mentioned how many kinds of people nobody thought,

Matthew Dols 1:08:36
like Henry darja he’s one of my favorite artists. Do you know Henry Dodger. he’s a he’s a illustrator ish kind of guy. But he’s a he’s a he’s a he was a schizophrenic, I believe and he was a janitor in the school system in Chicago. And he drew and drew drew hundreds and hundreds of things over the course of his life. never showed it to anybody when he died. His caretaker or sibling or whatever came in and just found all this stuff. And now his work sell for hundreds of 1000s of dollars. I mean, I love those stories. I think me because that guy to Shay and and Henry darter, and I mean some of these other people that I love, they have this this inner passion and drive to make work. They can’t not make work, they must be producing something. And that, to me is like the most magical thing if you can, if you have it in you, that’s, that’s gonna keep you going

Antonin Jirat 1:09:37
on this guy’s butt freaks a little bit, but it’s good. I don’t like tricks. They’re fun. It’s very they’re,

Matthew Dols 1:09:43
they’re my family always calls them. eclectic,

Antonin Jirat 1:09:47
eclectic, get

Matthew Dols 1:09:48
started. polite way of saying. All right, thank you very much for your time.

Antonin Jirat 1:09:52
Welcome was nice.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com