Transcript for Episode 166 – Corporate Curator, General Mills Art Collection, Lisa Melander (Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA)

Recorded March 22, 2021
Published April 22, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/corporate-curator-general-mills-art-collection-lisa-melander-minneapolis-minnesota-usa/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?

Lisa Melander 0:14
Sure. Lisa lander.

Matthew Dols 0:16
I know you’re the curator at the General Mills art collection, correct?

Lisa Melander 0:21
Yes, that is right.

Matthew Dols 0:22
Okay. I’ve tried to do research on the General Mills, our collection, I can’t seem to find much about it. So please give me a little background on the collection itself.

Lisa Melander 0:31
Sure. Yeah. And then I guess there’s probably a reason why you can’t find a lot about it out there. Because the collections really here for General Mills employees, and it’s not open to the public. So we don’t really have a strong public facing website or any information about it, you really have to hunt and peck for that. But the collection started in? Well, 1958. That’s when General Mills moved from downtown Minneapolis, out to the suburbs, where we currently are the campus is in Golden Valley, which is a suburb of Minneapolis, starting to build this multi building campus, the CEO at the time, his name was Charlie Bell, he decided to buy art to put on the walls for employees to enjoy. And the bell family, there’s a history in Minneapolis, they were a philanthropic family, they had ties to the Minneapolis Institute of Art. So it seemed natural that he would be the one saying, hey, let’s buy some art put on the walls. So that’s how it started. And over time, I just feel really lucky that throughout the years and as leadership changed that desire to have a really great art collection for the company that just carried on throughout the years and has always been supported, which I think is just phenomenal. So throughout the years it I like to talk about it as if it’s sort of like a living breathing organism. It’s not like a set and forget it kind of collection. It’s one that we’re always calling and adding to a little bit. So throughout the years, it does kind of morph and change. Okay, now, how did you get to this position? Because what you know, a lot of the listeners to this podcast are sort of career trying to build their artistic careers and stuff. So like, were your parents creative? Like what kind of career steps did you take? Like, how did you even get into being a curator? Yeah, it’s, I guess, a multitiered long story. But it sounds like we have time for that. So I would say like, as a child, I kind of always knew that art was my thing. Like I always just knew that I wanted to do something in art. And I didn’t really have like a direct art influence. But both of my parents grew up on farms had dairy farms. And, you know, I think farmers in general, just, they’re used to taking what they have and making do. And so I definitely saw that growing up. Both of my grandmother’s were just avid quilt makers and seamstresses, like just always making something and then even my mom kind of carry that along. For a while there. She made all of our clothes. Which, at the time, you do, yes, at the time, I was like, Okay, I guess this is how it works. And then I think, realized, once I really got into school that, um, no, most people buy their clothes at the store. And I think it was a little bit like, embarrassed by it at the time. But now when I look back, I’m like, that was really cool. I mean, not many people, except you and me can say that. So anyway, I think just that general sense of like, making beautiful things out of nothing or out of very little has stayed with me for sure.

Matthew Dols 4:22
Then what about like educations and things like this then

Lisa Melander 4:25
Yeah. So in high school, you know, I heard one of your podcasts where you were talking about the magic of the darkroom. And in high school, my high school art teacher, Dennis hat Lilly, who actually just recently passed away he got our there was a darkroom in our school, which is kind of amazing because I went to a very small High School, but he got her darkroom up and running and that just like, lit something inside me for sure. So from then on, I was like, okay, photography. is amazing. And so I knew that but when I went to undergrad I started thinking, Oh, I’m going to be a graphic designer because, you know, it’s kind of like the best of both worlds, you know, you’ve got, you can be artistic but yet, there’s a more clear path about what you’re going to do when you graduate. I went to Minnesota State University Morehead, which is people probably know at Best Buy Fargo, because Fargo Moorhead or I know, Fargo Moorhead, our Twin Cities on the Minnesota North Dakota border. So Morehead is where I went to school. So it’s way up there. But in some ways, that was fantastic. Because there’s not a lot to do up there. And it really made us all in the art program just we were really into making art. And it was a fantastic community. So that ended up being a really good thing for me. But when I started with the graphic design program, and like the computer stuff started, was introduced, I wanted nothing to do with that I did not want to make art on a computer. I I think I’ve actually said I’m never gonna work on a computer. And now obviously, like I do, but at that time in my life, I wanted something more tactile, more manual. So I switched majors into photography. So that’s what my BFA is. And it wasn’t so much like technical studio photography. So it also wasn’t a clear path to like, Oh, I can make a living from this, which is fine at the time. I didn’t really care about that. So what I was doing was like, mixed media pieces with lots of alternative processes in the darkroom. And it was wonderful. And I also took some art history classes in there, and I really liked those. But you know, I think back to like, 20 something year old me. And there was a time where like, I had graduated, and then I was like, Oh, no, what am I going to do? Like I had no plan forward. And I think just being that age, you can do that more easily, maybe, or at least I could. So one of my professors, my, one of my art history professors had suggested that I pursue, like an internship at a museum, just to see what that was like, because I was like, oh, that kind of sounds interesting. I don’t know. So I applied for a bunch of internships. And I got one at the Smithsonian American Art Museum in Washington, DC. No way. Oh, my gosh. So when were you?

Matthew Dols 7:56
Bill viola, I believe? No, that’s the artist Bill. Bill by Africa. The guy’s name he was I actually did an internship in high school with the Native American Studies Program at the American History Museum.

Lisa Melander 8:10
That’s amazing. Yeah, being in DC was so fun. Did you have

Matthew Dols 8:18
I was there in? Let’s see, I was probably 1990 would be about the year that I did that. Okay. I grew up in DC. So Oh, you did? Um, my mother worked at the Air and Space Museum and like, so we were sort of involved in all of that stuff. I ended up going to the Corcoran for my BFA. So

Lisa Melander 8:38
yeah, that’s so fun. It was such a great city to be in, at that time of my life. And I was there for this an internship, knowing that it was finite. And I think that really helped me really dive deep. Every weekend, I was out going to the monuments and the museums and just really trying to soak it all up. So after that internship, I moved back to Minnesota. And there was a gallery in Minneapolis that I just thought wow, like that. That’s where I want to be like, that would be amazing. And one of my friends who I had gone to art school with had had a show there. And he introduced me to the owner. This is the Weinstein gallery, which is now the Weinstein Hammons gallery. And it just worked out. His one employee happened to be on her way out. And he needed someone and we got along and so he hired me. So that was really like my first official, professional job, I guess, out of school. And that was amazing. I mean, being basically the only employee I mean, we had a part time employee here and there. Kind of as a prepared are like packing things and schlepping things around.

Matthew Dols 10:07
I’ve done that job too.

Lisa Melander 10:08
Yeah. And at that get in that job, I wore many hats. I mean, I did that a lot. I shoveled snow, I helped plan exhibitions, I did art fairs, I did so many things, and really learned a lot about the art world, in general a lot about just how everything works. So that was just a rich, rich experience. And my boss, Martin Weinstein, you know, has become just an amazing mentor to me, throughout my career, so I’m just so thankful for that. And so the transition then, from working in a small gallery, where I was the only employee into being a corporate curator, here’s how, how it went down. I loved working at the gallery. You know, it was, like I said, it was my first job out of school. And I was just like, I want to see what else is out there. And I knew, so target headquarters sets in downtown Minneapolis, I knew that they had an art collection. And I knew that there was some activity around it. I thought, well, that would be great, like something completely different. And this is something I did that I am so glad I did. And it took a lot of courage. But I just I sat down with my boss, and I said, basically, I just want to move on and try something new. And what I really want to do is go work at target for their collection. And he ended up doing something for me that really changed the course of my career. So knowing that this is what I wanted, and I had already sent some random, whatever letters, emails to HR, you know, I mean, but if you don’t have a specific like step in, it’s very hard to actually get noticed. And there was no like job posting or anything like that. So I had tried and failed, and just nothing was happening. And so my boss was at, I believe he was at a function at the Minneapolis Institute of Art. And he saw the CEO of target there. Bob alrik, who’s he’s now retired. But he is a just a big art collector. There’s a wing at the museum named in his honor. So my boss walked across the room. And he didn’t have to do that. But he did. He walked across the room, he spoke with the CEO of target and said, You know, this woman works for me, she’s interested in working for you. She’s great, blah, blah. And he gave my boss his card and said, Have her contact me. And so that’s what I did. And like two days later, I got a call from HR. Would you like to come in and talk about opportunities here? So I ended up getting hired. And I think that was another situation where I don’t fully know what was going on there. But I think there maybe had been someone dedicated to the collection, who was on their way out. I’m not totally sure. But I they hired me. So. So I was I worked for target as the curator of their collection for about eight years. And yes, huge change from the gallery. Like, huge change. You know, I went from being the only employee to like one of 1000s of employees. And it was a great experience, though, again, just huge learning experience. And that change.

Matthew Dols 14:17
Right? Well, I mean, working for a corporate collection is very unique, even, you know, in it, it could be equated to like a museum thing, but it’s really not a museum because like museums are they work on committees, and they have many different sort of thing, the different intentions and purposes like Like for instance, like certain museums, they have to do public programs in order to make money and all this kind of stuff. But like a corporate collection is really an institution sort of insular in and of itself because it’s more or less this and maybe I’m wrong on this. So please help me but like more or less, they’re self funded, and then they also are self exhibiting You know, so like you said you were there pretty much that you’re the General Mills collection only shows basically on the General Mills property. Mm hmm.

Lisa Melander 15:08
Yeah. And target was similar to that, where it was really just an insular collection. trying to think of guess what more I can add about that. Sorry, can you leave me another question?

Matthew Dols 15:26
Oh, it’s no problem. Yeah, no, I’m, I wonder, let me make something really clear for the beginning here. I love corporate collections. I think they’re magnificent. So nothing, I’m addressing yours in any way trying to say anything bad about corporate collections. My interest, of course, as a practicing artist, and as a professor, I will my first question was, should have been, how do artists get into corporate collections?

Lisa Melander 15:52
Okay. Yeah, sure. I mean, I think it’s probably the same ways that they would get into any collection, I guess I can tell you about how I go about buying art for a collection, and then we can kind of bridge it that way. So I guess that when I was at Target, there was a bunch of different ways, actually. So one way was that some of the kind of higher up leaders at the company who were like really into art, just personally, they would meet artists, maybe as part of their travels for the company. And like, oh, Lisa, you got to check out this artist I just saw on this trip, like this piece would be great. In this space here, can you reach out and kind of see what’s going on with that. So that was kind of one way, you know, or if those people had, maybe there was some kind of I know, there were a couple instances where the company had actually had a deal with an artist on maybe like, some kind of marketing imagery or some kind of product for the store. And so that was sort of the way and then there was like this whole other program that I worked on, that was so, so unique, and so fun for me, and probably for the artists. So, you know, Target, obviously has these distribution centers all over the country. They’re like, just these ginormous warehouses where they keep all the product. And then the trucks pick up the product and send those to each store. So those distribution centers also have little bit of office space. And they’re really all over the country. And one of our leaders at the time said, you don’t want to be great. Could we like when we redo one of these centers or rebuild one? Could we engage with local art students, they get the college level, and buy their art and put their art in those offices. And so that was the idea. And so I took that idea and kind of made that happen. And that was so fun. For it was just like a win win win, you know, because the people who worked in those offices were surrounded by art that they knew were made by students in their community. So this is like the undergrad or graduate level art students. I mean, I loved it, because I got to see, you know, I kind of got to dip back into like, art school world in my brain, and just kind of have my finger on that to see what are what are people making these days, what’s coming out of these art schools around the country. So that was really fulfilling to me. And then I mean, obviously, for the artists for them, to have that sale of their artwork, which I know it was so important, especially when you’re just starting out and that, you know, they can, they can now put on their CV that they have work in Target Corporation art collections. So overall, that was just a really fun program. So that was one way. And then I guess the final way, which is kind of like how I do it now at General Mills is I typically work with galleries to find art and by art. Sometimes I work directly with an artist, but it just kind of has worked. I’ve got relationships that I’ve formed with different galleries and I find that it’s, I guess, easier to be honest to go on a galleries website. And you can see the work and they, like certain galleries have like a certain aesthetic. So I’ve kind of figured out which galleries work with our aesthetic here at General Mills. And so you know, I can go on their website and look through what 2030 different artists work. So that’s kind of how, how I found a way to go about that. And sorry, one more thing is I do attend art fairs too, occasionally, not a ton and obviously, pre COVID. But like Art Basel in Miami Beach, just because there’s so many different sides, satellite fairs, and art Chicago, or I guess what’s now called Expo Chicago, those are kind of the two that I have gotten to. And I just want to make clear, like, my budget for art is not huge, it is very modest. And which I think is right, General Mills isn’t buying art to like, make these huge investments and go crazy. It’s just, let’s buy some interesting stuff. That’s good. For our wealth.

Matthew Dols 21:10
You literally sort of answered my next two questions already, but but I’ll dig into them a little bit more. So let’s go back to the first one, which is the investments which you just brought up like a lot of corporations, their goal is to basically take money that they have in the corporation and invested in art for the intention of growing they that resource or that? I don’t know, financial, I don’t know, I’m an artist, I don’t know this stuff, money. Grow money, you know, grown on trees kind of thing. So, so that, so? So basically, it sounds like General Mills, is not that kind of corporate collection?

Lisa Melander 21:48
No, no, not at all. I would say, I mean, generally, we buy art by artists who are like, in their emerging phase, or maybe mid career artists, but like, once it gets beyond that, it’s kind of out of our price range, to be honest, I mean, we want to be practical about what we’re spending our money on. So you know, and we’ve been collecting so long that you know, as it happens, sure, sometimes an emerging artists back in the 70s, maybe now they’ve grown. And so it is now a big name. But on the flip side of that, there’s a lot of artists in our collection, that they’ve maybe had a little flash in the 70s or 80s. And now they’re like, when I do research on them, I can’t even find their name. So like, you know, that’s just part of part of collecting and, you know, the fun is really just about, like having the physical collection here in our building and, and living with it.

Matthew Dols 23:01
What I mean, that’s part of it to me, too, is like, a corporate collection can only be well, depending on its budget, I guess could only be as big as its facilities, you know, so like, if you’re, if your offices are only so big, you can’t, you simply cannot keep buying, because then you’re going to put things in storage, and then that’s going to cost you more money. And then that becomes a whole little issue in and of itself. So, I mean, there’s you mentioned earlier about calling the thing. So like, are you both purchasing and sort of D acquisition ng or like on a regular basis?

Lisa Melander 23:33
Yes, yeah, pretty much. And that’s kind of something that’s just been kind of going on throughout time. So I mean, generally like, the, like the mission of our collection, it honestly is pretty broad. But one of the things that we are trying to achieve is to have a contemporary collection, meaning that it’s works that have been made recently, somewhat recently. And so, because of that as a mission, you know, obviously time is continuing to march on. So some works are aging, so that natural process where we’re letting things go that might be like, older and don’t, they just don’t fit with kind of who we are as a collection or as a company anymore. So yeah, that is an ongoing process that that continues.

Matthew Dols 24:34
Okay. You mentioned the aesthetics of the collection. This fascinates me. I actually got work in a corporate collection one time and they came to me and they said, Oh, we love your work. We really love your work could you do like I do generally like figurative based work that I love your work but could you do as a landscape? And I’m like, you really don’t seem to love my work. If you want me to do something. That’s like totally different thing. So I guess the question is sort of when it comes to the aesthetics like so like when I think of General Mills, I think of very wholesome. You know, so like, I would imagine you have a lot of like some Rockwell’s or things like that. It’s kind of like things that are very sort of Americana, very wholesome, probably some abstract work some Nagios. What I call, like, non confrontational works, basically things that won’t offend anybody kind of things. I mean, is this what most of the collection really is? Or is this just my stupid idea of what the correction looks like?

Lisa Melander 25:36
Well, it’s interesting to hear what you as someone from the outside of generals about someone who’s an artist would think that it would be, I think, I mean, in some ways you’re close. But I think it might help if I describe the built environment, a little bit more. So I mentioned, you know, that we started, this campus started in the late 50s. And it’s, it’s a beautiful campus, I mean, it truly is. And the first building, it’s, it’s designed to be like a series of buildings that are all connected. So it has the potential for growth. So like back in the 50s, I think it was just two buildings. And now I think we’re up to six or seven. But the first building was done by Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, out of Chicago. And it was one of the first in this style, like mid century, office buildings with a glass curtain wall. So one of the first in the upper Midwest, I should say, not the first ever, but so for this, for this region that was very progressive. And so we definitely have that mid century modern vibe going on. However, obviously, like, that was the 50s. It’s not like you walk in and you’re like,

Matthew Dols 27:03
oh, wow,

Lisa Melander 27:04
this is like, right back in the 50s, we’ve done a lot of modifications. And each building that we’ve added, fits with that original aesthetic, but is modernized, generally, like, the aesthetic is the international style. So it’s very clean lines, generally neutral palette. Although we do have, we do have lots of pops of color, I’m not gonna lie. So in the paint on the walls, or in the paint. But anyway, so that’s like, kind of like the general feeling. And, you know, I have to say that one of the things I love about being a corporate curator is the interaction of architecture and art, and how they come together, how they inform each other. And I think, you know, maybe an outsider would think, oh, like, like, why would corporate architecture be interesting, but it’s really a dynamic environment. And it’s an environment that’s constantly changing, which is also really fun to be around. So as the company changes, and different things are prioritize the way people work, the building changes, you know, there’s always like, some kind of remodel project going on. And, and so the art, obviously has to respond to that. And so I work in a group of people who are interior designers, and architects, and I love being embedded in that world. I just love talking about design and architecture, and, and art and all of those things. I said,

Matthew Dols 28:58
would you bring up an interesting question? Do you work by yourself as the curator or do you have a team like, you know, a lot of people think that like, being a curator is like a solo thing, where you just sit and drink coffee and smoke cigarettes. Just Just think of things and you know, be creative. But I mean, at the corporate level, I’m quite certain there’s probably some team of people.

Lisa Melander 29:21
So I mean, I am within that team that I mentioned, but yet I am the only person that works with the collection, and I actually only work part time. So that’s the extent of it. So that’s kind of like how I’m positioned. But you touched on something about like, you know, if I’m just sitting sitting around thinking of ideas, and but I wanted to talk about that, that my job is really because I am kind of a one person show in some ways. I do again, like the guy where a lot of hats. It’s just never dull here because I am required to do really detailed, like, get in there on the database, like super nerdy stuff. But then I’m also have to be like a strategic thinker and think super high level about where is the collection going? What should like the big, the big topics? What is that vision, and everything else in between. and then also the ability to relate to and communicate with a lot of different types of people. I mean, you know, we work with obviously, there’s lots of construction going on, and we have quite a few outdoor sculptures on our campus, that they’re all aging. And being that they’re in Minnesota, it’s the the weather here is just so harsh on that kind of stuff. So we do a lot of work out there with those sculptures. So I work with sculpture conservators, I work with people in construction. Like I said, the people on my team like architects, designers, all the way up to, you know, the executive team who helps kind of guide what that overarching mission is,

Matthew Dols 31:29
for the collection was so what is the overarching mission? so rapidly? changes? So like, what is it today? Yeah, so

Lisa Melander 31:39
it’s so the I would say the main thing is trying to have a current, like a contemporary collection. And like I said, it’s it is very broad, but I think broad is okay in this setting. Because, really, we want the art to not everyone’s going to connect with every piece, but we have enough variety. And it’s pretty eclectic, that I guess the wishes, everyone can connect with some of it, right, and like some of it. So right now, we’re really trying to diversify the collection in terms of making sure there’s a bunch of different media and different types of subjects subject matter. So it’s not all abstract. It’s not all landscape. And, and I’ll go back to that I want I realized that I didn’t quite finish when you were talking about what you thought that collection would be, but, and then also trying to diversify, like who are the makers of art in the collection, and we are global companies. So we’re trying to make sure we have artists from other countries besides the United States. So then, within that, then there’s also this whole, like, really practical side of what that mission should be. And it’s, it’s almost like, what it can’t be. So we want art that lives in this environment easily. So we just can’t take on art that requires extremely complicated maintenance programs around it. Right now, we don’t have any video or sound pieces, because they’re just kind of too hard to have here. They can’t be too small. I mean, this is very, very practical stuff. They can’t be too small. They can’t be too large. They just have to work here. You know, great. What

Matthew Dols 33:39
is the optimum size for your corporate collection?

Lisa Melander 33:44
I mean, I would say probably between like, two feet by three feet, up to like, four by six feet? I would say most generally. Speaking.

Matthew Dols 34:01
That sounds legitimate. Yeah, I mean, because you don’t work as if it’s too small, it gets lost on a large wall, and you have off because from what I understand, if I read it correctly, the corporate part of the corporate collection is that you actually allow the works to be in individual offices. So every so it’s not like you have a you don’t have like a gallery on the campus that people have to go to, but it’s actually integrated into their office spaces. And so you know, they’ve got to be really small enough to fit in an office, a small office space, but potentially big enough to begin being one of the bigger office spaces. And then of course, the hallways and the lobbies and everything else, man. There’s a lot of practicality. Yeah, my mother was an interior designer, by the way.

Lisa Melander 34:44
So Wow. Oh, great. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 34:46
Yeah. So I’ve got a little sense of this.

Lisa Melander 34:50
Yeah. And so we do we do allow employees who have like a dedicated office to choose art from the collection. We do have a gallery space in quotes, it’s actually just a really large hallway. But it’s has a lot of foot traffic. And that’s my opportunity to put together small exhibitions from our collection. And it’s nice because it’s a way to bring things together that we wouldn’t have the space to bring them all together and explore things within the collection like themes. Sometimes those themes relate into something else that’s going on in the collection. But I actually wanted to go back to when you were saying, like, what you envisioned the collection,

Matthew Dols 35:40
the aesthetics of the collection? The collection? Yes, the very, the very, very PG, maybe even, like, I cannot imagine the of all corporate collections in the world that General Mills would have anything, not what I would define as like, wholesome. And I mean that in the nicest way. Yeah. It feels like a very wholesome collection. To me. That would be my outsider’s perspective on what I expect you all to have.

Lisa Melander 36:08
I definitely I mean, yes, it’s PG, for sure. However, that does not mean that it’s boring. And I think that there are and I’m not, not implying that that’s what you were saying. But I just want to like for the listeners, just so

Matthew Dols 36:23
that they know what I’m just saying, like, I don’t imagine you own like a Robert Maple Thorpe.

Lisa Melander 36:30
We actually do.

Matthew Dols 36:32
Whoa, it’s one of the flowers. Yeah. Yeah, saw that. Okay.

Lisa Melander 36:40
Yeah. We wouldn’t, yeah, we wouldn’t be able to own the other ones. So my predecessor actually, in this position, he was your, for, like, 35 years. So I mean, and he’s amazing. And he continues to be a mentor to me today. And he always described, the collection talked about it. And I have to say most of the collection is from, like, his vision like that he collected when he was here. It’s within the corporate appropriate realm. But it’s pushes the boundaries a bit on pieces. And, you know, he always loved it when people would come up to him and be like, ah, like, that thing? You just I don’t like that. Why? Why did you pick that? That was a good sign to him that people were paying attention. And that these weren’t just like, these boring pretty pictures on the wall, but it was actually like, kind of activating people. And I like to think that their collection in that way that it some pieces are going to make you like stop and go, Oh, hmm. What’s that? You know? So I think with the aesthetics, it’s trying to find that sweet spot of, it’s not just a pretty picture, but it’s not a rubber Mablethorpe non flower. But it’s like, somewhere in between. That’s it.

Matthew Dols 38:13
I mean, there’s lots of artists in the world that make works that would be perfectly acceptable in any office space. So it’s not like it’s hard to find art like that.

Lisa Melander 38:23
Exactly.

Matthew Dols 38:24
Okay, what about mediums, like, because you mentioned that, like, you don’t do video, you don’t do sound that you’re having, you know, having to bring in conservators for outdoor sculptures and things like this, like, Is there a primary Do you do I know that you have some like Alex soft photographs? So no, you have photographs? Is it like so painting works on paper? Like, what’s the sort of primary like, do you have didn’t do you know, like, the breakdown? Like, how many of what each different medium do you have? Do you have a spreadsheet that you could show me?

Lisa Melander 38:57
I mean, I do have a database that I could look, look up these numbers. I knew you did. Yes. But I would say generally, it’s really balanced. All the mediums you just listed, there’s paintings, drawings, definitely photography. You know, that kind of mysterious mixed media, and a lot of fine art prints. So like we recently purchased some prints from Paulson Fontaine press in Berkeley, California, and here locally in Minneapolis, high point center for printmaking. So we do a lot of prints. I think one of the fun things about our collection is like for example, we have a Picasso print, and that I know that’s like everyone’s like oh my gosh, a Picasso we have and the thing is, it’s a print, it’s signed and like edition, but if you went to sell that it Wouldn’t be worth very much money. But in a lot of cases, we have like a print by an artist who’s a wow name. And I think that’s really fun for the employees. Because, you know, they can say, well, we have a Picasso, but

Matthew Dols 40:16
I have a called Alexander Calder print here in my office, and I have a shoe Gall in my hallway. But they’re just prints and they’re probably worth maybe $300. Yeah, but it’s really lovely to be able to say I have a Chagall and a call there. Yeah,

Lisa Melander 40:32
exactly. And we have a couple of color prints as well. So

Matthew Dols 40:36
okay, but within that, like, this is something Okay, let’s go back to I’m an artist, and I’m fascinated by collections. I’m a photographer. So I’d like my innate thing is, of course, I have to frame my works and things like that. So the question that I’m leading to is basically, when you are thinking about purchasing works for the collection, do you only look at things that are basically fully presented and ready to just install? Or do you all buy, like loose art? Were not framed or ready to be presented, whatever? And then do the framing yourselves? Or do you do even buy frames? And then like, throw them away and put it in your own corporate frames? Like how does that all work? Yeah,

Lisa Melander 41:14
that’s a really good question. So it’s a mixture, I mean, it can be framed or unframed. But most of the time, if it comes framed, we’re gonna change the frame. And that’s not because something is wrong with your frame. But it’s like getting back to aesthetics. There’s a certain look a certain aesthetic that we have here that all of so if you all sudden throw in like some super like, fancy, ornate gold frame, like that’s not gonna work unless it was unless it’s an artist’s frame, and the artists considers it part of the artwork. That’s obviously a totally different story. But yeah, for the most part, we will probably have it reversed.

Matthew Dols 42:09
Okay, within that, when I was growing up, and when I was in school, and everything was always black and black frames, white mass black frames tradition. Now it’s much more like white man’s white frames to allow the works to sort of stand off the wall on the frames to recede a little bit more. So like, I also worked as a framer. For a couple years, I’ve done lots of things, and everything. I’ve done lots of. But so so the question is like, so what’s the current sort of? Use? Like, what kind of frames Do you all see is sort of appropriate for this kind of settings.

Lisa Melander 42:46
So I have to say I work with just to give the shout out, I work with a local framer here in Minneapolis called Art serve. They do amazing custom frames, they can basically make anything. So while I sort of have a general parameter of like, what, what the aesthetic is, I pick frames for the artwork. So like, what is the profile that’s going to look best with that particular work of art? What is the material? Is it you know, wood grain? Or is it black? Or is it white lacquer, whatever it is, and any piece that I have reframed, I go to their shop, and we lay it out on the table and like, really make sure that that is the right frame for that piece. Because I mean, that frame is going to be on there for years, hopefully,

Matthew Dols 43:45
will actually then lead to another question was supposed to be you talked about how you are buying and selling works from the collection? How long do pieces stay in your collection on average?

Lisa Melander 43:57
A long time, I mean, pieces that have recently been like de accessed were pieces from like, the 50s, the 60s and the 70s. I would say most of the works in our collection are purchased, right around the time that work is made. Because again, you know, we’re trying to buy things that are really recent. So yeah, we’re talking like 4050 years. Being in the collection.

Matthew Dols 44:26
Yeah, that’s a long time.

Lisa Melander 44:27
Yeah. Yeah. And not that the framing has to last that long. But hopefully it lasts like 20 years. I don’t know. You never know though aesthetics can change.

Matthew Dols 44:38
Well, and technology’s changed. I mean, 30 years ago, UV protected glass wasn’t even a thing. So like, there are certain technological advances and also Plexiglas back then was very different than plexiglass now, like it’s actually quite good as far as non scratch or being scratch resistant now.

Lisa Melander 44:58
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It’s It’s amazing, like the products that are out there.

Matthew Dols 45:02
Absolutely. All right, you talked about conservation as well. Now I’m fascinated because you have outdoor sculptures in a non necessarily incredibly hospitable neighborhood. So like how much time and effort is a as a corporate collection person, like, do you have to put into conservation? So not necessarily just the sculptures, but just in general conservation versus, you know, acquiring or, or putting up new works?

Lisa Melander 45:31
Well, with her outdoor sculptures, and it’s not, you know, is that that the neighborhood is like rough? It’s the weather? Yes, no, I

Matthew Dols 45:40
did not imply that. No, sorry. Sorry, if anybody misses, I meant it is not hospitable. Because of the Cold, windy weather.

Lisa Melander 45:49
Yeah, the freeze thaw cycles really get us here. With conservation, it kind of ebbs and flows. And I would say, you know, during the summer months, that’s our opportunity to do any conservation work on the outdoor sculptures. I would say I don’t know, a percentage wise of my job 10 to 15%, maybe

Matthew Dols 46:12
a little higher than I expected, but not a lot.

Lisa Melander 46:14
Yeah, and I would say that the majority of that is because so I’ll give a little history on the outdoor sculptures, that in the 1980s, there was a bunch of construction going on our campus. And the roads were kind of like sandwiched in between two highways, and those highways were being redone. And anyway, there was just a lot going on, like landscape wise. And General Mills hired a landscape architect to come out and do like a master plan of the whole campus. And then the CEO at that time, who’s also a big kind of player in the art community here, he had the idea to Hey, let’s, as part of this master plan, let’s commissioned artists to do these sculptures on our property. So in the 80s, I mean, I don’t know, I think there were maybe like, eight or nine significant pieces commissioned for this space. So all of those pieces are kind of, since they all went in at the same time. Now they’re kind of like, all aging evenly. And now is the time when they’re all really needing a lot of work. So the past three or four years, the conservator that I work with, we’ve been putting a lot of effort toward that and just getting them kind of like stabilized and kind of in a good spot. So yeah, that’s, that’s part of it. And it’s, you know, it’s a significant when anyone who’s gonna think about putting an outdoor sculpture on your property. It’s a significant commitment. You know, it really is.

Matthew Dols 48:11
I do know, I actually ran a public sculpture program.

Lisa Melander 48:15
Well, you have,

Matthew Dols 48:18
I have not done everything. I’ve just done a lot of things again, but unfortunately, I didn’t do any of these things really well, or I would still be doing them. So there’s that. But yeah, but I mean, the the issue of putting public sculpture is is a whole nother thing. But of course, you’re on private property. So unless you can put whatever you want, which is great. I did it on public land was so of course, I caught all kinds of grief from the public about like, Why are you putting this ugly thing in our neighborhood? And I’m like, cuz I’m trying to make you think. So, yeah. Anyway. Okay, you’ve been very elusive as far as like, what’s in the collection? Are you willing slash able to say like, maybe like some of your favorite pieces, or maybe some of the more prominent pieces you all have?

Lisa Melander 49:08
Sure. Yes, I can definitely show that. You did mention Norman Rockwell.

Matthew Dols 49:13
I knew it was there.

Lisa Melander 49:16
Well, it’s interesting because they don’t really fit with like what I’ve described. However, they are significant to just like the heritage of the company, because back in there from the late 30s. So in the late 30s, Green Giant commission, Norman Rockwell to do these illustrations for just for advertising purposes to sell a product. And so the paintings were done. I guess, as the story goes, Green Giant wanted to advertise PS and Norman Rockwell. Didn’t want to Do paintings of people eating peas. And I guess it makes sense because like compositionally, you can’t do a lot with that, except they’re in a bowl and you eat them. So he said, I can do corn. So it’s these little vignettes of people eating corn on the cob. And they’re very sweet and very wholesome, just what you would imagine. And so those are, those are great. And those are obviously just kind of unique in terms of like the rest of our collection. And then as far as the other pieces in the collection. It’s fun because we do have a mixture of pieces. We always have supported Minnesota artists. So we we do that. But then as I mentioned, we’re also trying to like reach out globally. So it’s, it’s a big net. One of the pieces we have which is wonderful is Charles Biederman, who is from Red Wing, Minnesota, which is pretty close to here. Did these painting slash sculpture constructions they were like metal flat hanging on the wall, but then they there’s pieces of metal that protrude. So we have one of those which is really wonderful. Probably one of our kind of biggest names in terms of like contemporary artists is we have a Kerry James Marshall portrait called den mother. So it’s a portrait of a woman who’s in like, I guess like boyscout she’s a den mother. So that is fantastic. One of my personal favorite photographers is Abba lardo morale. He does pinhole images so but his camera is an entire room often the piece we have is like I don’t know if it was his apartment or hotel room somewhere in New York, where he darkens the whole room and then just leaves like a little pinhole and then you know has the paper on the background you know all about this and

Matthew Dols 52:14
I do now that you’ve explained it I know the work

Lisa Melander 52:17
and then the image that comes through is upside down. And I guess you probably have to see it really like you know it but like for people who don’t know this, they’re probably like, What is she talking about?

Matthew Dols 52:29
I’m pretty sure Is this the one with the bed? That it’s there’s a bed and then I think it’s like the Empire State Building is upside down? Yeah, yeah, I know the work. I’m really great visual, visual artist, a person good with that stuff. But names I’m not so hot with so yes, I know that word. Yeah.

Lisa Melander 52:46
We have again a minute. Well, I guess he was North Dakota artists. But James Rosenquist, we have a couple of huge screen prints by him that are so fun. They’re just so bright and colorful and kind of weird, like just a weird amalgamation of images put together. One of my favorite pieces is by Mike and Doug stern.

Matthew Dols 53:16
I love them,

Lisa Melander 53:17
right? They were like, in college, like when I was pursuing my BFA, I mean, they were definitely my biggest influence. And so then when I worked at the Weinstein gallery, and we represented them, so here’s like, I love the the piece we have, it’s from their blood out the sun series where it’s in, it’s two trees. There’s like in caustic on top. And it’s huge. It’s probably like 60 by 70 inches or something. It’s big. But for me personally, another layers, I when I worked at Weinstein gallery, my predecessor here, Don McNeil bought this piece from us at the gallery. So now I’m here and I get to take care of it. So I really like that as well. We have a couple of Robert Longo like the black and white dancing people. Those are very fun. I could go on and on.

Matthew Dols 54:24
Yeah, I guess I’d have to cut you off them. Yeah. Are there any other sort of ones that have sort of you just really, really want to mention?

Lisa Melander 54:32
I think I am good. There’s I mean, I really could go on, but I think those are the highlights.

Matthew Dols 54:39
Okay. Well, something that I was thinking about when you were talking about all this is like, okay, so is every piece that’s like elzy, like owned by the collection on display, or do you have anything in storage?

Lisa Melander 54:51
Yeah, also great question. Most of the pieces are on display. I mean, I have a storage room. It’s quite small. I would say it’s mainly storing pieces that they’re like, I’m not gonna show them again, they’re kind of like on their way out, or they need a new frame, or they’re just kind of like in transit. So like, maybe, you know, we’re redoing a space. So when took the art, and I’m just storing it until that space is ready to have it go back up. So not a significant storage.

Matthew Dols 55:28
All right, you work for it, you are the curator of a contemporary art corporate collection. So the question would be, do you have like maybe three artists that you’re looking to that you’re hoping to collect?

Lisa Melander 55:42
Oh, this is tough. I actually,

Matthew Dols 55:45
are you not legally allowed to say anything?

Lisa Melander 55:47
I probably I mean, I probably shouldn’t, but I would I can share is I would love to share three contemporary artists that we recently collected. Lovely. That’s great. Okay, so there is an artist who is she lives in here in Minnesota, and she’s part of the Lakota nation. And her name is dyani. White Hawk. And

Matthew Dols 56:14
I’m sorry, I’m laughing. My father did a mission at Lakota Sioux. So like, I actually have, like,

Lisa Melander 56:23
I feel like everything I say you’re like, Oh, yeah, like I have a connection there and a connection there. It’s great.

Matthew Dols 56:28
I forgot to mention, wait, no, I forgot to mention, when I was in high school, you know how to give those aptitude tests for like, career goal things. I took it, and they said, I should be either a curator, which I was like, Oh, that’s interesting, or a mortician. Somehow, they seem to think that the somebody with the skills and aptitude for curating also would be a good mortician. I found that really weird.

Lisa Melander 56:53
I don’t know how to take.

Matthew Dols 56:55
I didn’t tie that at the time.

Lisa Melander 56:57
Just do on that one for a while.

Matthew Dols 57:00
I went with the idea of like working solo. And making for I don’t know,

Lisa Melander 57:08
I mean, I get it.

Matthew Dols 57:11
I kind of get it. My brother ended up being a mortician. And I ended up going into the yard. So like a little bit of both.

Lisa Melander 57:16
Oh my gosh, oh, okay. Well, so Lakota Sioux. Okay. So dyani, white hog. And she did this just amazing series with high point center for printmaking. And it’s a series of four dresses, I mean, they’re prints and there have lots of different layers on the surface of the paper. But the imagery, it’s these four different traditional dresses, and the dresses, the series represents the ways in which native women take care of their community. So like, each dress has a different name. It’s like, create and nurture. And I can’t remember the other two, but they’re just fantastic. And I think that’s just a huge asset to our collection. That’s just going to add so much another artists that I purchased a series, also a series of four, I don’t know what just happened, the two that I’m talking about are series of four. And actually, so anyway, her name is Aaron O’Keefe, and she’s a photographer. And actually now I say, I bought four of the pieces for General Mills. But I don’t know if they were necessarily a full series. I think there were more in this series, but their photographs, but she constructs these little, I don’t even know how to properly describe it. She uses like plywood and pieces of paper and paints them in such a way that it looks flat. And it is flat because it’s a photograph. But it’s it it looks like as if she did a line drawing on a piece of paper and just colored it because it’s so flat. But there’s little giveaways in the photograph that you can discern oh wait that actually recedes into the distance. And then you kind of understand that this is actually a three dimensional. I don’t want to diagram I don’t know if that’s the right word for it that she made to look flat. Anyway, Aaron O’Keefe if you look her up, you’ll you’ll see, I will put shown the links

Matthew Dols 59:34
to all these artists.

Lisa Melander 59:35
Oh, perfect. Okay, that’s great. And then another artist that we recently acquired. One of her works is Carla J. Harris. So she creates these almost like, mythical scenes, and I can’t recall right at the moment if she’s always in them. The piece that we purchased she is so it’s like a self portrait. That she draws on mythologies. So the title of the one that we bought is called Sphinx. And she’s kind of in a position that kind of looks like the Sphinx a little bit. But they’re just like, kind of whimsical. I don’t know, they have like, some gold, and then they’re just really, really lovely.

Matthew Dols 1:00:22
Alright, and my last question is the same is advice. So for your perspective, it could be advice to artists, about how to maybe work professionally with corporate collections, or it could be potential young curators that want to get into your profession?

Lisa Melander 1:00:40
Well, I think, a couple of things, I think one is more of like a broad piece of advice that truly anyone could use. But that helped me like that story that I was saying how I went to my boss at the gallery, and I had told him like what I want, and then he did something great for me, I think, generally, tell people what you want, like if there’s something you’re striving for, and you know what it is, people really do want to help?

Matthew Dols 1:01:13
I want a retrospective at the Museum of Modern Art.

Lisa Melander 1:01:17
Done. That’s fantastic. I mean, it truly is No, I mean, truly, like, there’s no way that someone can help you get what you want, if they don’t even know what it is. And I realize sometimes the problem is that you yourself, don’t even really know what you want. But whatever you can share with others, like, like I said, people, Jen, I have found people want to help. So I think that’s that’s one thing. And then another thing like I host people here, like people in you know, the Twin Cities who reach out and they are like art history majors, or they’re curious about the field. And I’m happy to do informational interviews of people about the career path. And what impresses me the most is when the people show up, and they’re like, really prepared. Actually, one informational interview I did with someone, she had done so much research on the General Mills collection, she actually pulled out a couple of facts that I didn’t know. I was like, Wow, that’s amazing.

Matthew Dols 1:02:29
I feel very unprepared. How did this person get this stuff?

Lisa Melander 1:02:33
Well, I don’t know. She was so she just I could tell that she was just so excited to be here and like, prepared. And I think that stuff just goes a long way. And then this is super old fashioned. I still live by this, send a thank you note, after you know, if someone gives you their time and like you, you know, make sure to say thank you. It’s it’s really simple, but it really I can’t tell you how, how much weight that really has. And it doesn’t have to be a handwritten note, it can be an email, but just that acknowledgement, but it’s not even the acknowledgement. It’s also that follow up because it keeps your name, Top of Mind in that person’s brain, frankly. And then I guess, you know, just generally like, seek, you know, any opportunity you have to talk with someone in the field or even I would say, like, any little piece of like experience that you can get that you can add to your resume, even if it’s small, I think it’s fine. It shows that you’re trying and it shows that that’s the path you’re going down and that you’re interested in it.

Matthew Dols 1:03:54
So okay, there’s a question that just sort of rattled around in my brain from what you just said that I didn’t really I’m not sure if I didn’t ask it or if you didn’t answer it. I’m not sure which, but anyways, when you’re working okay, so you said you mostly buy through galleries. Now when so you’ve had over the years, you have sort of found galleries that carry works that are of your aesthetics. Okay, I understand that that totally makes sense. Now, then even getting more finite into that like so, like then how do you really sort of choose? Like, if you I guess the question is like, okay, as a corporate collection, because that’s one job I have not had as a corporate collection. hat is it basically like you’re given a you have an annual budget and then you say, Okay, what can I fit within that budget and you know, or and then this is the hole that’s in our collection. We want to fill something with that. Or is it my gosh, this gallery just picked up this new artist and they’re absolutely astounding. I need to be sure to buy something now while it’s this price point, like Like, what? What’s the sort of dynamic of how you keep in touch with that and make these decisions?

Lisa Melander 1:05:07
I think it’s a mixture of probably both things that you said. So it’s, I mean, obviously, I can’t buy anything if I don’t have a budget. So there has to be budget there. And then yes, I look at the collection as a whole and think, where do we need to fill in some gaps, whether it’s trying to make sure that the artists in our collection are diverse, or, wow, we have a lot of landscapes or I don’t know what it is, but like, you know, just making sure or like, I don’t know, something that’s, that’s lacking. So there’s that. But then I also even when times of the year when the I don’t have budget, I’m still always looking, and I’m still I have a list of things. A list of names of artists that for kind of like, when the day comes, when I might have more budget, be sure to go back and look here at this artist and, and I just want to you know, like, Yes, I have these galleries that I kind of go to but I’m also like constantly looking at new artists and new galleries. And it’s just I’m always looking at images.

Matthew Dols 1:06:18
Okay, you just brought up one last thing I know, I said last thing. Diversity, is this something that is important to the corporate collection? So like diversity of women, diversity of race, diversity of whatever other kinds of forms of diversity, they’re involved in this? I mean, is this something that you try to actively do? Or is it just like, I only by the best works?

Lisa Melander 1:06:43
Yeah, I mean, I would say that over the past year, it’s become more deliberate. You know, I was kind of going into 2020, you know, it’s the 100 anniversary of women’s right to vote in the United States. So I thought that would make sense to really focus on women artists for that year. So then I kind of did like a deep dive into our collection. And, you know, after what happened with George Floyd here, that tragedy, then I even did a deeper dive in our collection. I was like, Well, wait, now, who are the artists in our collection, and, and really looked at it deeply and realize that there is an opportunity to increase the racial diversity in our collection, and also increase the amount of women in our collection? It’s something that has, it’s not a criticism of the General Mills art collection, like, whatever they’ve been, you know, it’s this is obviously I think most people who listen to this probably realize that this is kind of what’s been going on in the history of art. And I think the tide is turning, and that, you know, generally like the canon of art history is starting to include more of the people who have been excluded in the past.

Matthew Dols 1:08:09
All right, any last topics that we you want to expand on or that you didn’t get to that maybe that you want to bring up that I didn’t even ask?

Lisa Melander 1:08:19
I don’t think so. Matthew, I think we’ve, we’ve really covered so much. And you let me just kind of go where the conversation wanted to go. And so I thank you for that. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 1:08:34
that’s the way this podcast is. Yeah. Yeah, I’m not a journalist. I don’t come in with any I literally come in with no questions. And I try to listen to your expertise. Because when I started the podcast early on, like, I literally had a script, I had series of questions that I was like, so like, my first like, 10 episodes are literally me like, okay, check. They answered that question. Next question. And they had nothing to do with each other and had nothing to do with your expertise and your knowledge and stuff inside learned very quickly that one of the better ways to do this is to be more of an active listener, and sort of say, like, Okay, what kind of knowledge do you have? Not? What kind of knowledge do I want to get from you? Very different. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much for your time.

Lisa Melander 1:09:22
Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Matthew Dols 1:09:28
As you all know, I’m generally pretty bad with self publicity. And I don’t ask for help very often. So I’m going to do a rare thing and ask for your help. It’s very uncomfortable for me to do but I’m going to do it anyways. When it comes to the algorithm, I’ve learned that one thing that does work to help podcasts gain more attention is to get ratings, so I would appreciate it greatly if you would go and give us five star rating or any rating if you don’t believe it’s five star worthy. And some review, great show love the gas, anything like this something it doesn’t have to be long but the more the the people the sheer volume of people doing it helps us immensely to gain a larger and broader audience. So I would greatly appreciate if you could take a second and go into where wherever you’re listening to this podcast and give some sort of a star rating, or a comment. Any sort of feedback will help us greatly, and I would appreciate it. Thank you.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com