Transcript for Episode 160 – Photographer, Educator, Founder + Editor-in-Chief of LENSCRATCH, Aline Smithson (California, USA)

Recorded February 25, 2021
Published April 1, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/photographer-educator-founder-editor-in-chief-of-lenscratch-aline-smithson-california-usa/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:13
Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me?

Aline Smithson 0:15
Okay? No one pronounces it correctly. So you take the man’s name owl. And then you take the word lien. And that’s it our lien. You say the L twice? Okay.

Matthew Dols 0:29
Our lien?

Aline Smithson 0:30
Yes.

Matthew Dols 0:31
Okay. Easy enough. I read it on your website and you were very precise with it. I thought it was pretty clear.

Aline Smithson 0:37
Yeah, you wouldn’t believe who has not.

Matthew Dols 0:40
What had I not gone to your website? I probably would have said a lien.

Aline Smithson 0:45
Yeah. Yeah. As many before you have.

Matthew Dols 0:49
Yeah. Well, I doles and so I get all kinds of dolls and all kinds of weird mispronunciations of my last name. And of course, I’m in also in Europe. So I get match you instead of Matthew and things like this, but those are just cultural things. So first thing I like to know about people is sort of their backgrounds as far as their childhood. So like, where your parents creative, like, how did you get into being creative in the first place?

Aline Smithson 1:15
I think creativity was an escape. For me, as a child, I was always drawing, I was always creating something. My mother was a music teacher. My father was also a musician. And my uncle was a supervisor of all the art in the Los Angeles City Schools. So he was very elevated, I think. I mean, he was an amazing man, but I was very intimidated by him as a child, but I don’t know where my visual creativity came from, because Neither of my parents were really visual artists. But I do think of it as a little bit of an escape. I had a great childhood, but I just sort of went into my own worlds. You know, I used to draw cartoons and all kinds of things as a kid. Where was that? Los Angeles?

Matthew Dols 2:10
Okay. So, one of the first things that I think about when I think of your name, your name, of course, is directly associated, everybody goes, Oh, yeah, the lady from lens scratch, like, that’s everybody’s Association. microbe, my thing My interest is, I mean, I know, a decent amount about lens scratch, I have a background in photography, though, I’m not currently doing photography, but what sort of what led you to bit make something like lens scratch,

Aline Smithson 2:38
I had my education and art, not in photography. So when I came to photography, I, I was truly self taught. I took a couple of extension classes at UCLA. But so for years, I worked by myself in the darkroom, I taught myself I made a lot of mistakes. And then when I started teaching, I realized I need to know more about the community with which I’m making work in. And I was very isolated and anonymous. And in 2007, was the year of the blog. Everyone had a personal blog. And there’s a few letters that still have them. But thankfully, you know that that era is over. But I started off with a personal blog, and I would post an image and I’d wait for all three friends to clap or, you know, thumbs up. And then it just felt so hollow to me, like, what, what the hell am I doing this is, you know, this is benefiting me in any ways. I thought I could use this platform to learn about photographers. So I started out by just and I made a commitment to myself, stupidly, that I would write about a different photographer every day. And 14 years later, we’ve pretty much held to that. I started off by just pulling things off the internet and writing about them, like not getting in touch with the artist. And after a year, I realized that I really needed to let the artists know that I was writing about them. So that really became a much richer experience of having this collaboration with someone that you’re going to feature. So I would say for the first 10 years I I did it all myself. And then maybe in the last five, six years, I’ve brought on a few people and now I have a pretty big staff. Last summer I realized I needed to diversify our voices. I brought on seven new editors from the bipoc and co We’re populations and it’s been fantastic to have so many different points of view.

Matthew Dols 5:06
Just to clarify bipoc is, what does that mean?

Aline Smithson 5:10
Black indigenous people of color?

Matthew Dols 5:13
Thank you. There’s so many

Aline Smithson 5:14
acronyms. No longer say people of color. You have to,

Matthew Dols 5:19
I don’t believe I ever said people of color.

Aline Smithson 5:22
Okay, well, anyway, that’s that is the new terminology.

Matthew Dols 5:27
Fabulous. I’m learning. I learned so much new, like vocabulary in the process of doing this. It’s insane. Yeah, so building a community is one of the big things. And of course, I’ve also seen and I’ve known you, I’ve seen your name around. For decades, people have mentioned you to me, I’ve been encouraged to go to portfolio reviews with you all these kinds of different things. And so like, the question that I have is sort of like, how did you become that like, so like, your your amount of being a juror and portfolio reviewer and, you know, sort of a mentoree kind of decision maker is very prominent part of your career, I believe, at this point. And so like, how did that happen?

Aline Smithson 6:10
I have no idea. I think I came to photography with an attitude that it was much more fun to go on this journey. with others. I didn’t want this to be a solo endeavor. I also am a photographer, I’ve attended many portfolio reviews. As a photographer, I know what it feels like to sit on the other side of the table. And a lot of reviewers don’t have that perspective. But I’ve always been really kind and generous to other photographers and, and celebrate them more than I celebrate myself. Like, if I’m going to put something about me on Facebook, I’m going to put three other posts about other people. So it’s not just me, me, me, me, because I get I’m not interested in me, me, me. And that has really, I do feel like it sort of set the tone for so many photographers I know are doing the same thing. Now. They’re celebrating each other with abandon. And, you know, I always tell my students, your turn will come. But you might as well be celebrating everyone along the road. So when your term does come, they’re going to celebrate you back. After writing land, scratch for a number of years, I was asked to jump the table and be a reviewer. And I mean, I had my eyes were wide open, like, Oh my God, is this what happens on the backside? You know, when we went to lunch, we were talking about all the photographers and it’s like, I’m in my heart, I’m a photographer sitting there going, Oh, my God, I’d die if you know, people were talking about me like this. Anyway, you know, once you sort of get on the circuit as a reviewer, then the next person asks you and I think because I’m a photographer, and I’m an educator, and I’m an educator in a way that teaches people how to move their work out into the world and really packaged themselves in a really professional way. That I, I’m excited when I do reviews, because I always feel like I can help this person in some way. But that’s kind of how it worked. And then people started asking me to juror things. And I love that because I look at 1000s of images all the time.

Matthew Dols 8:39
You know, I do I do online portfolio reviews for lens culture, the anonymous reviews, which I enjoy doing, because they’re anonymous, because one of the aspects of being a review, or is that like, if you say something or even look at somebody the wrong way or say this like the slightest wrong thing, they’ll be angry at you kind of thing. And so like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I know. I know. Because I’ve been angry at people who have reviewed my work because I’m like, Who the fuck do you think you are saying something like that? But don’t get me wrong. The the person that gave me this feedback, after hindsight, and about five years, I realized that he was correct. So yeah, I was and had the chance to apologize to him.

Aline Smithson 9:23
Well, I had a situation where someone was so mean to me, as a photographer showing my work. So

Matthew Dols 9:32
the review or was mean to you?

Aline Smithson 9:34
Yes. Yes. So I literally shut my box about halfway through. And I said, you know, I’d rather take this time to learn about you. Just because I just couldn’t take anymore. And then it was my last review of the review sessions. I went to my room, I just cried, cried cried, got on the plane cried the entire way home didn’t make work for sleep. Six months. And I realized that I am not going to be that kind of reviewer, I’m always going to review with possibility. Like, you know, why not be positive and

Matthew Dols 10:12
constructive criticism?

Aline Smithson 10:14
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 10:16
I know. Yeah, I can’t stand reviewers that just say like, No, no, doesn’t work. This is bad, blah, blah, blah, like, try to help them to do better. I mean, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s a, it’s a community, like you, like me. And so they, you can’t be mean to one person and expect the rest of the community to just overlook that, like, it’s gonna get back to you. It’s the the photo world is too small.

Aline Smithson 10:42
Yeah, I always ask my students, How were your reviews? You know, what was your best review, and I get a lot of interesting feedback. And I’ve had students say, Oh, my God, they hated my work hated, and I am so devastated. And then they go back, and they listen to the recording. And the reviewer said nothing negative. They were bringing all of that negativity themselves to the review, out of fear. Absolutely. It

Matthew Dols 11:11
is so hard to stay neutral, and objective when basically you’re actively sort of baring your soul to them on a table, and you’re just like, please don’t crush my dreams. Even if they say something really, really nice. It could just be body language, or tone of voice, whatever that just makes you think that they’re saying something that they’re not, and it happens all the time.

Aline Smithson 11:37
Yeah, it’s the worst is when when you have a developed, finished body of work. And the person goes, I think you should have shot this in black and white. And it’s like,

Matthew Dols 11:50
Fuck you.

Aline Smithson 11:50
WTF? Yeah, exactly.

Matthew Dols 11:52
Yeah, you’re welcome to curse on the web on this podcast. But yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s very difficult, like, as you said, like taking a finished set of work to a portfolio review. Because oftentimes, they’re being constructive and giving you constructive feedback. But it’s often like, you know, what, you’re missing this middle part. You know, why don’t you go back and reshoot this? And you’re like, I’ve already done like, it’s done. I’m finished with this. I’ve already moved on to my next project. I’m just sort of showing you what I did. Yeah. Didn’t want you to change the project.

Aline Smithson 12:26
Yeah. So when I get that when I get a finished project, I think, well, let’s talk about installation. How are you going to show this work? And then think let’s talk about places you can show this work that are not photographic. Let’s expand how you can get the workout. So that’s the kind of conversations I have. A lot of that comes from being an educator.

Matthew Dols 12:47
Certainly, yeah. No, okay, wait, there’s, there’s the thing that I have, because I do this a lot. So I do these, I’m both a professor. And I also am my own artist. And I also do portfolio reviews. The thing that I also often have happen is like, I’ll do a review, or I’ll even do a critique in class, it doesn’t even matter. And like, late that night, I’ll suddenly be like, Oh, shit, I should have told them to do this, or should have tried or should have encouraged them this way. Or I should have tried to address it in this manner. Like, do you stay up late at night? For all the things that you sort of missed saying in the moment?

Aline Smithson 13:22
No, I don’t. You know, I am an email or like, if someone takes a class with me, they get a gazillion emails. If I get like a great video, someone sends me I send it out to everybody. If I do forget something, I might get an email the next days.

Matthew Dols 13:41
Okay, so you follow up with it. So you don’t get the likes? Because I’m still thinking of like a critique. I did like five years ago going crap, I should have told her this. Like, because one of my other concerns. Is that, like, when you do when, like in the classroom, you’re teaching also, right? Yeah, a lot. Okay. In a classroom, when I’m teaching something, sometimes I have to often like sit back and say, like, I feel like, this is what they’re doing, what they could do better, let’s say like, they could go down this direction, whatever. And then sometimes I have to sit back and say, but am I right? And I’m not sure like I’m like, is maybe what they’re doing is newer, fresher, younger, then my style, my aesthetic, my techniques, whatever. And so like, maybe they are more on top of things than I am. And so I questioned myself sometimes about like, is are my critiques the right critiques for some of these younger artists?

Aline Smithson 14:45
Yeah, I could see that being a problem for you.

Matthew Dols 14:51
Not a problem for you though. You’re fine with that.

Aline Smithson 14:53
I teach in a way that is about possibility. So all my classes I show all kinds of ways Working all kinds of ways people have approached things. And I leave it up to them to figure it out. Because ultimately, people are not going to be in a classroom their entire life as an artist, ultimately, they’re going to need to step away and make the work themselves. So I have a very light hand in telling people what they should do, because I think they need to figure it out themselves. And because they’re the artists, it’s their voice.

Matthew Dols 15:27
Oh, yeah, don’t get me wrong. I’m more of the Socratic method, like, I’ll lead them to a tool towards a path, but they have to figure out their own path. But I often wonder, like, did I encourage them down the right path? I don’t know. Because sometimes I feel like, I’ve known a number of students that that I feel like I may have pushed in the wrong direction. Maybe they would have been better had they, I don’t know, stuck with their guns state stood up for themselves and maybe followed their sort of more unique path. That wasn’t what my teaching sort of encouraged them to do. And I sort of wonder about that sometimes in the whole structure of academia as well, not just like me as an individual.

Aline Smithson 16:07
Yeah, I mean, I can remember what I was in art school, some of my crits. So well, very misogynistic, but so unkind, really. And I think that there is something especially in graduate school where people feel they need to break the person down, to give them strength, but it also for people that are sensitive, that stops them from working. I know so many people that have gotten their mfas and have not made any work for a number of years to kind of find themselves again,

Matthew Dols 16:47
that was my experience in my master’s program. They intentionally broke us down and crushed our spirits, to see if we were strong enough to come back basically. Yeah. I mean, you know, in hindsight, 20 years later, I respect it. But I probably could have been done better.

Aline Smithson 17:05
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 17:06
So where are you teaching these days,

Aline Smithson 17:09
I’ve been teaching at the Los Angeles center of photography for 20 years, I teach it the Santa Fe workshops, the main media workshops, I teach a lot of photo festivals and other venues. And I run some critique groups on my own, I hopefully someday I’m going to sort of teach my own, but I stay with students for years. Like, I have a whole arc of classes at Los Angeles center of photography, where you come in sort of not having made a project not really having a focus, and you then move all the way through the program that will take a couple of years and ultimately come out the other end. And I’m always blown away. So many of my students are getting books published having museum shows. I mean, I’m just so excited for everybody,

Matthew Dols 18:01
that you also so you said you did workshops as well, I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of being an artist who runs workshops. So like, how did you come to that? And like, are are they and I guess the big question is, is like, are they still working? Because I’m assuming you’re probably doing them online these days.

Aline Smithson 18:19
I mean, the workshop world has exploded, since the pandemic, I mean, exploded, and I’m, I’m teaching in places I never would have taught, you know, because I couldn’t have gone in person. And I’m seeing now sort of the MFA generation beginning to participate in that world. Prior to this. It was a lot of doctors, lawyers, people, sort of they were hobbyists. But I have really seen a shift that the classes are more intergenerational. And I mean, one thing I wish workshops were a little bit more diverse, in terms of it’s it’s really who can pay for it.

Matthew Dols 19:02
And who has the least leisure time as well.

Aline Smithson 19:05
Yeah, but a lot of the classes I teach are like one class, I teach us a year long. So you know, it’s once a month, so that you’re in it for and then people take that class several times. So sometimes I’m with them for three years. So it’s, it’s actually pretty great. Especially if you have a focus on what you’re teaching.

Matthew Dols 19:28
Well, like I had the one of the directors of the main photographic or sorry, not main for immediate main media workshops. Yes. As a guest on on the podcast and he encouraged me He’s like, oh, write a workshop proposal. You know, you should do one and I’m, I’ll be honest, I’m sort of stymied. I. It’s one of the things like when I think about workshops, they like you really want to learn something really specific, because it’s sort of a focus time period. But as a teacher, I’m sitting there thinking like, well, what can I offer that is that incredibly specific thing that would Garner enough interest, you know, because most things that most photographers know are the same technical stuff. So it’s like trying to figure out what that unique special treat that you can offer them, that you, as a unique person have that that feels like the most difficult thing, I still haven’t given my proposal because I can’t figure it out.

Aline Smithson 20:29
I have been asked to teach some destination workshops I taught in San Miguel. And I am not a travel photographer. And I really struggled with how to teach a workshop because there is a real pushback now, in the photo world about travel photography, that you are photographing a population that is not your own, and you can’t really bring voice to it. I kind of took the way I teach, because I think you can create, you can look for details, you can look for things, you can create topologies, you could make work that’s combined with poetry of that region, or you could do something that is more artful. I struggle with it because, you know, going with a group to a location is just not the way I shoot I shoot at home mostly. So

Matthew Dols 21:26
I do going on location is one of the most stressful things ever just for my own shooting must much less with an entire group.

Aline Smithson 21:35
Yeah, I mean, it’s so much for the instructor is about the well being of your you don’t know what people are going through. They’re away from home, emotions come out and you’re like, it’s, um, I always feel like I’m a therapist, a photo therapist. So that’s a big part of taking care of your students.

Matthew Dols 21:59
I understand. Okay. Now, something that I also thought about when I was thinking of your work was this, like you’re sort of playfulness and sort of your sense of humor that you’d like to instill in your work? I find it really difficult to incorporate humor, because a lot of it is very, it doesn’t translate and you know, between cultures or generations or things like this, like, how do you find the ability to sort of fight right, find that right mix of stuff and ride that line beautifully, to be humorous and playful without falling into, like cliche or inappropriate.

Aline Smithson 22:34
Both my parents had just incredible senses of humor. They pranked us as children. I mean, my parents were pretty amazing. So I came into the world with a great sense of humor. And it is a tough call, you have to be really smart and subtle about it. And I have to say that coming out of the art world, two of my biggest influences were john Baldessari and Edward Shea, which really had that ability to be humorous. And well might one of my current favorites is an artist named Wayne white. And he was the I guess the set person for Pee Wee Herman’s Playhouse, he does amazing paintings with words that just slay me. So that’s the kind of the world of humor that I’m thinking about when I approach a subject.

Matthew Dols 23:36
It’s hard. I mean, I, you know, again, like, as a teacher, and as a portfolio reviewer, like, I see lots of stuff where people try to play with humor, and it’s a really difficult like, to find that sort of right. I call it like a balance to it like because, like, sometimes you can easily go overboard, and it can easily be cliche, or whatever. So like, it’s really hard. I mean, so they do get by sort of push things do you find like, you have to push things too far and then sort of pull them back? Or do you or do you already have things sort of envisioned in your mind perfectly by the time you get to shooting?

Aline Smithson 24:14
Yeah, I have it in my mind. I mean, I think all humor is it takes you a minute and then you laugh. So that if you see it right away it it’s all somewhat is cliched. You know, so many cartoonists have that great ability, especially for the New Yorker of you know, it just takes like a split second and then you like oh my god, that is hilarious. You know,

Matthew Dols 24:41
so slightly intellectual.

Aline Smithson 24:43
Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Dols 24:45
Okay. Okay. You mentioned earlier about like Facebook and social media and stuff like this. Do you use it? How do you use it? Do you like it? Do you dislike it? What’s your position on it?

Aline Smithson 24:58
Well, I have children who are very involved in social media. So I’ve learned a lot from them. And, you know, my daughter has schooled me in the fact that I should never post more than once on Instagram a day if you post more than once you are burdening the audience, things like that. But I, I love Instagram, there is a thought now that all artists should only show their work. But that’s what my websites for. I feel like Instagram is a little bit more about who I am as a person. And I don’t care. I mean, I have felt this my whole career. I don’t care what anyone thinks. And I am sort of off Facebook. I’m on there because I have to post Lynne scratch. And occasionally I’ll post that I’m in a show or something. But I’m not on there scrolling and looking at people’s lives anymore. I have totally moved to Instagram and even that I have lessened my looking I think. But my latest thought is how can I be subversive with social media? My husband and I took a vacation to Mexico. And he threw his back out. And it was a miserable time because he was in bed. We couldn’t do anything. He was always in pain. So we’re on the flight home and I’m thinking how do I share this trip on Instagram? So I get out the inflight magazine, and I see all these pictures of people in hammocks and jet skis. And so I start photographing those. And then I put those on my Instagram, I said, we had the most amazing trip. And everyone just were like, Oh, I’m so happy, blah, blah, blah. And I never said anything. But inside I’m going, Oh my god, I can use this as an artistic tool. I haven’t done it yet. But I I want to.

Matthew Dols 27:05
Well, I mean, it’s an interesting aspects of trying to a different way to approach the social use of social media. Because, you know, there’s the whole like Instagram art star stuff that I don’t really believe in or aspire to. Because I think it’s more of a lifelong pursuit, not like a shoot to stardom kind of thing. But that’s my own personal philosophy. But you know, how to how to use it to be an art project in and of itself is an interesting way to approach it instead of as a marketing tool or a publicity tool, which is what we’ve all been taught that we should be doing social media for.

Aline Smithson 27:45
Yeah. I also have a website under a German man. Which No, I will never reveal the website. But those are the kinds of things that gives me joy is to like, have these alter egos or do things that no one knows about? But me. He’s applied to a few shows and gotten rejected to everything. But I don’t know that that makes it fun for me.

Matthew Dols 28:16
I used to have great like, I used to do things like do art and put it inside matchbooks and then go to the bar and somebody had asked for a light and I would give them a light and a redhead just give them the matchbook and just walk away. And maybe they saw it. Maybe they didn’t. But boy, it was really fun to think about what happened to that thing.

Aline Smithson 28:36
Yeah. Yeah, there’s this woman in Colorado who did a whole series of I think she made little, little books, tiny books. And she just put them all over, like on a walking trail or and just left the little book there. And

Matthew Dols 28:52
it’s great fun to do. Yeah, the potential of what you just put into the world and how that could affect things. That’s just sort of fun. Yeah. All right. I want to cry. I’ve got a question though. I want to get to sort of the nuts and bolts of it all sort of like the business side of this. So Len scratch. He started it 14 years ago. It’s now I’m assuming a pretty good running ship. Because you got You said you had a number of employees. So like, what, what do you do to I guess sort of cobbled together a living? Because I mean, between teaching classes, teaching workshops, being an artist, running lens scratch, you’re quite a busy lady.

Aline Smithson 29:30
Yeah, well, Lin scratch is all give back to the community. We all know I’ve never been paid a penny from it. Neither have the staff so they come on knowing they’re not getting paid, because we get donations. I mean, our hosting bills are huge now because the site has over 5000 photographers and their bodies of work. And then we also do the lens grad student prize which we give a cash award And I can’t bring in a lot of money because it’s going on my taxes. You know, that’s something to think about. And I’ve thought about going nonprofit, but I am working. I cannot give anything more to it right now. Like, I don’t want to board. I don’t want to have to write the letter. Thank you for your $25 donation. I just don’t have time. If I wasn’t a photographer, if I wasn’t educator, I could do this full time and make it something else. But everything that we when we have a call for entry, it’s all free. We never charge anyone anything. That’s just the way it operates. So there’s no money in that. There’s not much money in teaching.

Matthew Dols 30:48
Not a good start.

Aline Smithson 30:51
Yeah, teaching is not the Bucks are not rolling in. And four of my galleries have closed in the last 18 months. Yeah. And so it’s, you know, thankfully, I am married, and I have a husband who brings in an income. But it would be really, really hard to just live on what I make. Well, okay, but

Matthew Dols 31:19
wait, how about art sales? Do you do a decent amount of art sales,

Aline Smithson 31:25
it really ebbs and flows, you know, you can go nine months and don’t have a sale, and then you have three sales. But let’s, let’s just dial it back to the reality. Let’s say you get a show. Now, when I started in photography, all the galleries gave you. I mean, all the galleries had frames, because it was all silver gelatin. So you would send 16 by 20, prints matted to 20 by 24, ship them off to the gallery. They would, you know, frame and show them. And then once digital hit. Everyone’s like printing all these random sizes. No one’s frames fit anything in the gallery set, forget it. You’re paying for framing. Let’s say you have 20 pieces in a gallery show. That’s probably close to $5,000. In framing and shipping. It’s about Right, yeah. And then most shows you sell one or two pieces. That maybe, and then the gallery takes half. So you might have made back your first 1000. And then all those pieces are sitting in a bedroom somewhere when they come back. And everyone I know has just boxes and rooms filled with frame photographs that are going nowhere.

Matthew Dols 32:52
I have half a garage full of works. Yes. Yes. No. And this is the thing is like, what can we do? Or what can be done to do bad? I mean, are we over pricing? Is the gallery system broken? Like why is it that we can’t seem to sell works more?

Aline Smithson 33:13
Okay, here’s my analysis. I went to a classic photo exposition, where it’s all galleries that are carrying silver gelatin, you know, the greats in photography. And I would say every gallerist was over 70. And the collectors that came to buy those things were also the same age, there was no one young at this. And it made me really think about that when these galleries or or even collectors pass on. There isn’t a younger generation coming in to celebrate the historical side of photography. So I think that the collector base went, you know, I’ll never forget, at the beginning of my career, I was invited to some collectors lunch and you think, oh, if I make friends with them, they’ll buy my work. And then I’m sitting across from someone and he goes well, I collect photos of biplanes, and everyone had like a really specific thing that had nothing to do with my work that they collected. And that was a big eye opener for me. And I think that there are because of the internet, there are so many ways to sell your work. Like during all the social unrest. There were so many photo sales to generate income to help different organizations. And at some point, you just burn out and you just can’t buy as much. I mean photography is no longer a rare commodity. When I started out, it was still special. Because it was silver gel, and that was darkroom. You know, you buy a Keith Carter print and you’re just in heaven. And now it’s, it’s just it’s a very different arena. It’s it’s really hard to sell photography now. And when Catherine Edelman, one of the greatest galleries in the United States just shut her doors, she’s still going to be a private dealer, but she’s not going to have the gallery space. That was like, you know, change is here.

Matthew Dols 35:33
That’s funny, I saw I saw, I think she was posted she was selling frames, or your old standard sized frames, like you were talking about honor em, like, I’d be really great to buy some of those frames. And I was like, why am I gonna buy those frames for them just to sit around my house instead of sit around? replace, but I saw that, so that that makes a lot more sense now that it’s just a sad state of affairs, but I mean, yeah, I mean, I know plenty of people that work in other mediums and they’re having similar difficulties, like, I don’t think it’s a photo only issue, I get the sense that there’s just not as much interest in fine arts, and I’m gonna say, like, at a at a moderate to low price point, you know, because, of course, the blue chips are always going to sell to some buddy, whether it’s an institution or a collector, whatever. But like those people that are just like just working, you know, not the, the Damien Hirst and the Jeff Coons and all those people. They’re really going like struggling these days. And I mean, this was even before the pandemic, so like, this is the pandemic has just exacerbated this scenario. But yeah, it’s it, I’m just not feeling that there’s a lot of interest in art in general, like, by the public, as far as buying it, don’t get me wrong, designed, like homewares like beautiful dishware. stemware like, home decor that is functional and beautiful, utilitarian stuff. I feel like there’s a huge sort of interest in that. But as far as like, just like making a beautiful piece of work, that’s meant as ads apologize for somebody who’s gonna hear this, but like, meant as decoration, you know, but like, it’s gonna end up just on the wall or, you know, decorating your home, that there’s, I feel like there’s been a generational shift from like, when I was a kid, to now there’s just less people buying.

Aline Smithson 37:31
Well, we’re living in a culture. I mean, I just heard about two other big businesses going out of business because of Amazon. One was kind of like a Best Buy chain. And I can’t remember what the other one was, you know, this idea that we can have everything we want in and in a day, that’s a radical change in thinking like, why should we even go over to the mall, because I can just see one more product on their homepage. I also think having millennial children and watching some of their friends purchase their first homes and start decorating. They don’t want all photography, they want illustration, they want paintings, they want a collage of different art forms. And at some point, you can only purchase one big photograph in so many homes, because most people are in apartments. So that’s it, you bought your one piece.

Matthew Dols 38:34
Well, and Pete did up digital photographers are working bigger often than we did in the silver gelatin days where like 20 by 24 was huge, you know, whereas now 20 by 24 Digital is like yeah, that’s medium size.

Aline Smithson 38:50
Yeah, exactly.

Matthew Dols 38:51
So yeah, I mean, it’s hard like because I even think about some of the people that I grew up admiring and stuff and the prices that they I believe they got fair prices, of course at the time adjusted for inflation, all that kind of jazz, but I don’t think they can get those prices anymore even though they’re their reputation has gotten better. And you know, they the value of artwork, I feel to a certain extent is especially because of digital reproductions has sort of gone down slightly like something that silver gelatin print, like let’s say in 2000 could have sold for 20 $500 if it was digital printed now would be like 15 $100 like it actually the price has gone down because of the simple proliferation of this your volume of work available, and of course, the ease of producing it.

Aline Smithson 39:44
I also think now I’m going brain dead right here. That That is why we have this, this whole new sort of movement towards unique prints. I see so many work people now returning to alternative process returning to the darkroom. But the other thing I was talking to one of my, one of my staff at lens scratch, and I said, what what is like the biggest trend in photography right now. And he said, photography. And, and I love that because I just curated a show about artists intervening with the surfaces of their photographs in some way by sewing and burning and cutting. And what makes me so happy is it for years, I kind of railed on coming out of an art school that photography was so uncreative. I mean, in terms of the, the images, it was creative, but no one was making art with it. And when I was in school, photography was just one of the, you know, in the paint box, it was one of the colors you got to play with. It was printing, painting, sculpture, photography, and I feel like there’s a Renaissance. And that is coming back now that that photographers are adding art to their practice. And that is really exciting to me personally, oh, yeah,

Matthew Dols 41:19
that’s what I’ve done, I, I actually just got rid of my, I don’t even own a camera anymore. I’m just working with old works, the prints and manipulating those prints and sort of deconstructing, and reconstructing in new ways. Because to a certain extent, like I kind of feel like I don’t, there’s just the sheer volume of work being produced and good quality work being produced in the world that is easily accessible to anybody in the world through the internet, and social media. And all this makes us feel like I just sit there and like, I don’t know what more I can add to that part of the medium. But I can add this other thing, you know, so like, say that you like, I’ve seen you do hand painting and other kinds of things on staff as well for yourself. So like, that kind of thing. I feel like sort of makes the work. Special again. Yeah.

Aline Smithson 42:17
Yeah, I agree. But I have given my journey, a lot of thought, especially during the pandemic, like what do I want out of this experience. And of course, we all want fame and money and all of that, but it’s not going to happen for us. So once you kind of make your peace with that, I realize I want to create a legacy for my family and the next generation. Obviously, it’s great to get everything in book form, because that will travel through the generations. But when I die, I think my children won’t have a clue what to do with all my art, they won’t know where it is, they won’t know how to deal with it. So it’s like, kind of now I’m in this idea of like, text and image, writing my own stories, putting it with an image, so they’ll have those stories. That’s kind of where I’m at mentally about photography right now is really to use it as a storytelling tool.

Matthew Dols 43:22
Well, and the idea of legacy planning that you just brought up is something that I like, prior to me doing this podcast, I had never heard that term before. But it’s come up numerous times the idea of it, because it’s fascinating that basically, you know, most of us could have got artists that are doing our work all throughout our lives and never reach any sort of level of great acclaim for fame or fortune. The only way that will be ever known in the future, so like, after we pass away is if we do some planning while we’re still alive, you know, collect things, keep things make it so that future scholars will have something to research about us to be able to put us into the canon of stuff. And that has changed my whole perspective. Like now I’m being very organized about like my sketchbooks, I’m like, I’m putting dates on them. So that this is at that time, I was thinking this kind of stuff. So like, it’s a it’s a fascinating idea to be sort of intentionally doing legacy planning.

Aline Smithson 44:26
Yeah, one thing I have talked about in some of my classes is sign all your prints. Like if your work is going to have more value, if the print is signed, and then put the artist statement with your box of prints because your family isn’t going to know where to find those artists statements, the more that you can actually physically packaged together the work I think that you know,

Matthew Dols 44:53
oh yeah, my parents are getting old and I’m started asking them questions like, Hey, where did you get this piece of art that you collected in there? Like, I don’t remember. Yeah. Like, who is the artist? And they’re like, I don’t know. Like crap. Like, it’s already lost? Yeah. Oh, well, we’re getting old. I’m getting old. Anyways. Alright, one thing I wanted to wonder about his lens scratch, I’m sure you’re given 1000s of submissions a year? What is the criteria? Like? How do you make the decision of like, these people are worthy of having a post written about them? Like, what’s the, do you have a process? Do you have like a committee or group of people looking at it? Like, is it just you saying, like, I love it, I’m gonna write about it.

Aline Smithson 45:45
Well, it’s sort of that, but we only open submissions, one or two weeks a year. And we get so many submissions in that week. So I actually have a submissions editor and God bless him. He’s, he’s brilliant, he has really good, he’s really great about the work that he selects. I’m happy to take that off my plate. But then I am just on so many sites and get so many emails that I’ll see work that I’ll say that I really would like the audience because I really think of lens scratch as this tool for educators and students. I don’t know how deeply you’ve looked under our tabs, but we have whole research source editor areas where, let’s say you wanted to make work about family, you can go under subjects and click on the word family, and then all the posts on family will come up so that you can really, as a student, look at all the different ways people can talk about that. And I know many educators use the site. So one thing we started doing is themed weeks. And my idea is that the educator then can take all 567 of those artists, put them into a PowerPoint and have a lecture. You know, we did a week on collage we just did a week on about to do a week on the artists intervenes this week is on black histories. So sometimes I’m looking for work that fits certain themes and criteria. But I do get pitched a lot of work in books. And there are certain things that really make it work. The photographs are great. And if you’re a film photographer, I have a soft spot, I can always tell the difference between the film and digital work. And writing an artist statement that is connecting the artist to the work in some way that really sells me on the work that is about his elevated thinking, that combination of good work and a good statement, then that’s what I’m always looking for. Okay, you

Matthew Dols 48:00
just got on to one of my topics that is a pet peeve of mine is artist statements, because I’ve written them for decades. And I don’t think I’ve ever written a really good one. And so they, from your perspective, as somebody who looks at lots of them, reviewed them, and of course, written them yourself. What are some sort of characteristics that you think are sort of the things that make for a good artist statement?

Aline Smithson 48:26
I think we have to actually move backwards a little bit because I teach this. The first thing an artist needs to know is who they are, what things they want to explore what’s of interest, what are they bringing from their life. One of the things I have my students do is the second sentence in their bio has to be a description of who they are as an artist, and the arenas that they work in. So once you have identified who you are, it really helps in your artist statement, because you’re drawn to certain subjects over and over. And why is that? So an artist statement has to be really succinct. It has to tell you in the first sentence what the work is about.

Matthew Dols 49:15
People love trying to be sort of vague and mysterious.

Aline Smithson 49:19
Yeah, or liminal. liminal is a big word. And then really talk about why your process why you’ve used the process you’re using, how does that relate to the subject matter? And I think all artists statements are things that need to be revisited on a regular basis and updated and rewritten because the longer you spend with the work, the more you know about it.

Matthew Dols 49:44
I write much better artist statements, five to 10 years after I’m done with a series of work because of the time and distance and reflection I have upon because then I’m thinking not only what did I make that work about but then what was the It then led to next. So they’re not because I then grew into something else, I now have better perspective on why I did that original series.

Aline Smithson 50:09
Another thing I tell my students to do is to take their idea. And then let’s say their their idea is the natural world and their relationship to the natural world. So then I say, OK, Google, a human’s relationship to the natural world and add the word psychology. And you then get a whole other layer of articulation, because you’re really understanding like, how the psychological benefits of being in the woods affects you as a human being. So it’s not just your story. It’s anyway, blah, blah, blah.

Matthew Dols 50:52
Yeah, I know. I mean, it’s easy to sit here and give like general tips, but it’s really hard, when you actually have to sit down and write something very precise about your work. That’s very vulnerable, oftentimes, like because you’re sort of sharing of yourself in many ways, but not too much, because then it’s too much to sort of egocentric and not sort of open enough for other people to connect with. So like, it’s it’s a really difficult balance. And, as I said, I mean, in hindsight, I’ve done some horribly, pompous and arrogant artist statements over my lifetime. And I’ve also done some really, maybe to personal and to vulnerable ones. And it’s really hard to find that right? balance, because I’ve had a lot of times in my life where like, I will show somebody my work. And they’ll be like, Oh, it’s really beautiful. And then I give them my artist statement. And they’re like, yep, not interested anymore. Like, somehow my artist statement are killing it. Yeah, yeah. And that sucks, because I’m not a writer.

Aline Smithson 52:00
But I can’t stress how critical This is to elevating your work. And if you think about it, it’s the tool that the gallerist and the curator use to sell your work to the public.

Matthew Dols 52:13
Okay, wait, but I have a question about that. Because I of course, I’m living in Europe now. And here in Europe, it’s very common, that sort of, quote unquote, artist statements are written by curators or writers, instead of the artists. I mean, obviously, they do it sort of in relation to us, they, they work together and collaborate on the statement, but, but that more or less, it’s written by the curator or some other person, that’s not the artist. And I love that idea. Like, I recently had a curator write a statement for me, and it was absolutely magnificent. I never think he saw things in it. I never would have seen he made it make sense, in a way that like, I never could have done and, and I wonder, like, Can I use that? I mean, of course, I would cite him saying he wrote it, that’s fine. But, but like, is that legitimate to use? As an artist statement?

Aline Smithson 53:06
Well, maybe it is regional. Because when I get those, and I do, I’m like, uh, not so interested in this. It’s not the artists words. You know, I mean, Cindy Sherman, I can’t I can’t remember the quote, had this quote, where she wasn’t able to articulate her work. And some museum curator wrote about it. And she said, I just kept my mouth shut, because I just, you know, what she said, was fine. Like, but yeah, I really want to hear the artists voice.

Matthew Dols 53:39
It’s really hard. I mean, it even goes back to like social media stuff. Like, I am great with putting my artwork out on into the world, you can judge my artwork all you want, but like, putting my vulnerability like putting myself out there is very scary for me. And I think it’s scary for a lot of people to be sort of criticized or judged upon like that, how they feel about something instead of like, the representational thing, object that they’ve created that is metaphorically expressing this thing. That’s easy. I have no problem with somebody critiquing my objects, but a critiquing, like sort of baring of my soul, that’s a little bit more difficult.

Aline Smithson 54:21
I wonder if that’s a gender thing is honestly, okay. I do feel like women are that their emotions are right on the surface, and men have tapped them down a little bit more. But I’m going to fight back here and say, the hard things are what move you forward. And if you’re going to complain about writing an artist’s statement, then suck it up. I’m sorry. Yes. Suck it up.

Matthew Dols 54:49
Okay. I know. I’m fully aware of it. I mean, yeah, it’s my fears. It’s my fears. Like, I mean, I know it is. Fine. Okay. But

Aline Smithson 54:59
you know, Fear is your best friend on this journey.

Matthew Dols 55:04
Well, as you said, you feel like sometimes in reviews, you’re being a psychiatry, so you kind of just did that for me too. So thank you. Okay. All right last little bit. These days, what I’m doing is I’m actually asking for names of three artists that you think deserve more attention.

Aline Smithson 55:24
You know, it’s really hard, because every year, I am an advocate for all my lens scratch student Prize winners. So I always push their names forward. So I’m going to start off with Raymond Thompson, Jr, who was our winner this year, who made a project about really researching archives of black history, and really seeing them as a black artist, and seeing what was left out in those histories. And I think all the artists that are working in that way, that’s really important work. And he is also using a variety of ways of seeing and presenting the work to tell that story. So he has sort of photo as sculpture. He has. He’s, he’s working in all different ways. So I would put him forward. I would also put an LA photographer, Sandra Klein, a lot of her work is personal. But she is intervening with the surface, often she’s sewing, but I just think her work is fabulous. And I mean, there’s so many This is really, really hard. Probably the work that moved me the most this year was john Henry, who photographed black mothers holding their black son’s piano style as a call to the loss of black lives. And it is a powerful, powerful project.

Matthew Dols 57:03
You’re welcome to give more than three three was just a random number I chose. It’s fine.

Aline Smithson 57:08
No, I’ll stop there.

Matthew Dols 57:09
Okay, fair enough. Last question would be any advice that you haven’t already given, because you’ve given lots of great advice, but any advice for the future of the photography industry, play?

Aline Smithson 57:24
Have fun. Make friends, build your community. I heard this great line in an artist talk recently where she said, I don’t want my work to be a fossil. I want it to be an eruption. And that was like, Oh my gosh, this is such a great way to think about making art and so exciting. And I always say often your best work is right in front of you. It’s something in your life. It’s something you want to bring voice to. You don’t have to travel the world to tell your stories, because your best stories are already in front of you.

Matthew Dols 58:04
All right, any topics that we didn’t touch on that you’d like to touch on any things coming up?

Aline Smithson 58:10
Well, I had a trip to France to teach a workshop, but that’s not happening. So I don’t really have anything major coming up. I’m kind of a dud that way. I mean, it’s I’m in some groups shows. But you know,

Matthew Dols 58:27
I saw your the new diffusion. I saw that. Yes.

Aline Smithson 58:31
issue.

Matthew Dols 58:32
All right. Well, thank you very much for your time.

Aline Smithson 58:34
Yeah, it was great.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com