Transcript for Episode 158 – Director of the Kampala Biennale, Curator + Gallerist – Daudi Karungi (Kampala, Uganda)
Recorded February 18, 2021
Published March 25, 2021
Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/director-of-the-kampala-biennale-curator-gallerist-daudi-karungi-kampala-uganda/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Matthew Dols 0:12
Today, my guest is the director of the Kampala biennial, an independent curator and gallerist from Uganda. We talk about what it’s like being sort of outside the international art market not living in some of those central locations. The differences between an African artists working and living on the continent and an African artists living elsewhere in the world, and how that affects their work, both conceptually as well as materiality. We also talk about repatriation and the need for more museums in Africa. Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me,
Daudi Karungi 0:54
Daudi Karungi
Matthew Dols 0:55
And I’m not even going to start with like trying to list off all the things you do, because you do a lot. You are I mean, so good. Can you give me a rundown of like, all the different things that you’re involved in these days?
Daudi Karungi 1:10
I’m an artist. Initially, I started as an artist, and became a gallerist, a culture entrepreneur. I’m an advisor into curator, the director of the anally so I kind of exist in the ecosystem of art, a react to upsets, react to things that I don’t see, I try to have them available.
Matthew Dols 1:38
So in your How did you even come to being in the creative industries? I can’t, I mean, I imagine it’s not like a great thing that parents are like, Oh, my gosh, I want my kids to be an artist, or work in the arts industry. So what were your parents creative? Did you have some great teachers like what led you down the path to creativity?
Daudi Karungi 2:02
I don’t know. I guess it was unfortunate or fortunate. I lost my parents when I was younger, when my dad died, when I was one year, and my mom, when I was like, 14. So I then grew up with my grandfather, who was provided the shelter and gave me and my siblings a home to live in. So growing up from that point, I was quite independent. I was doing things that I wanted to do, of course, going to university, you had to choose what you wanted to study. And I chose law first, because it was acceptable thing to do. And then I just chose art, because it was the natural thing to do for me. Again, I don’t know, when this happened, or how, but I know that during high school, I did art when I was in high school, which had art class. So you have to know that in Uganda, art is not a subject taught in high school or primary school, because I mean, not all, some do, some don’t. So it will be rare in some places. When it was in a school as or as part of it making art. I wanted to become an artists who studied art at the university, and I did. So in Uganda, when I was in high school, the government used to pay for your university, if you did well, no longer exists. When I was in high school, you had to choose four courses at university. And the first for me was law, because that was the acceptable at because that’s the other thing. And I honestly don’t remember the other two. So the government because of my grades, I did well in art and history and some other subjects. I got art as my first choice. So what happens when you apply? The government places you where you’re going to be? I was placed in art?
Matthew Dols 4:08
Yeah, my wife is Czech, and they have the same sort of structure in the Czech Republic as well were like in like 1314 years old, they place you in a certain track of educational systems. So you’re going into the sciences, you’re going to the arts or whatever you’re going into, and that’s sort of where you go whether you like it or not.
Daudi Karungi 4:30
Yeah, something similar, not monitored very well, though. Yeah. They place you there and they leave you there. You might make it remain but thrown in that line. I went to at school and I remember after the first semester, my uncle was working behind the scene to get me into law school. And they had finally got me a place in law school. So they asked me Do you want to transfer to law school, and I kind of enjoyed being an art school because I was doing nothing, you know? It was like the best time of my life. I was hanging out and partying and it was so nice. So I didn’t want to go into the serious stuff of law school. So I decided to stay. So yeah, that is how I got into art. Okay,
Matthew Dols 5:15
now, how did you transition from that into being? I mean, you’re the director of an art gallery, which I’m assuming you open to so your is it owned by somebody else? Or is it sort of your gallery,
Daudi Karungi 5:30
it’s my gallery, from art school, because that’s where it started. Like I said, I was hanging out, and it was so much fun. But then I remember in my third year, it was a drawing class. And we had this drawing class every Monday, which was everybody had to attend. And I was sitting in the back of the class, and looking at, we’re about 100 students in this class. So when that guy that everyone’s, I was in there, and I saw 100 of us, and I asked myself the question of, what are we going to do when we get out of here, like for the first time, in my almost three years at school, it dawned on me that we are here to get an education so that we can become something useful or not. I remember after that class, I started looking for places, where do artists do they make art and sell it in galleries? Then I started looking for galleries that I could show my work. And compile at the time had two galleries. One was a German owned, private gallery, and the other was the National Gallery, which was a family house somewhere next to the President’s state house. The problem with that National Gallery, it was like any other government institution, extremely poorly managed. So that wouldn’t be my choice of where to go. The private gallery, the German owned was good. But it represented the best artists at the time. And it was very hard to get into how can another 100 of us fit in there. That was my my thinking. So I realized quickly that there’s a need for more platforms, more spaces to, for me to show my work. And I’d get a space through my grandfather. So I did a research on what does the gallery take had never been to a gallery, like a proper one. I didn’t know anything about a gallery. But I knew that artists need galleries to sell their work. That’s all I knew. And galleries needed walls. So I needed walls. And my grandfather had this. He was an intrapreneur. So he had these sort of buildings or warehouses that he never used because of Well, I guess they were problematic. There was this one location, which is to flood it was like in a sort of a swampy lowland area. So once in a year, it could flood and for up to about a foot in insights. If the rains were so hard, it could flood and so bad I said, Well, I need the walls. I got the walls. beautiful building is fantastic building, but it had that one problem. I had shows there. And the other thing I asked him was a diplomat. So I asked him to get me a guest list was an intrapreneur. And the diplomat said, sometime we’re at a party at home. And there’s all these people from diplomats and businessmen. So I said can you get me that guest list that we had at that party? And then say, Well, if that’s all you want, yes, Secretary to give it to me. I got it. And I invited all of those people including him said come to the opening of an art gallery. And you know, Matthew, I knew nothing I’d never seen a gallery really. But I knew that this pictures on the wall they have to be good. So I guess that’s when I started trusting my eye for art that even in the first works that I even in my first show, I rejected some works, it was a group show. I rejected some works and accepted others like already at that point I knew
Matthew Dols 9:21
what should be good. So I placed this works in Wait hold on one second, give me a timeline on this when what year was this
Daudi Karungi 9:30
is at school was 2001 and immediately after was the boss of the gallery. And then the gallery became and then we had our first show in 2002. Like the actual opening of a gallery, November but the idea everything the work started much earlier. And then at this point, I don’t know anything. I don’t know who the best artists in the world are the best color in the world is what none of that stuff so It means that then I started developing a gallery, the way I knew galleries should be. So I did what I, what I wanted to do, how I wanted to do, when you look back, it has formed who I am today and the nature of my activity. And perhaps the way I do, what I do is somehow different from everybody else in my, my peers, because mine comes from a lot of sacrifice and change. And there’s a lot of situations that determine the things that we do, because of the country where I am and the circumstances. So at this point, I couldn’t I wasn’t making my own art. When I started the gallery, I worked for three years, before I had my own show, because I realized quickly that this gallery is a full time job, it is something that you don’t do, and then you have some other stuff going on, you know, so job in his own, and also to, you know, deal with the richest people. I mean, I was 2122 you’re dealing with the CEO of a multi million company or whatever, because they’re buying a painting and, and they’re giving you more money than you’ve ever held. And then the whole thing of how to run a gallery, you know, you have to then pay the artists, and then you have to the money that remained. So late, I did my first show, I think it was a collaboration with another artist. And then after I had a show every November for the next 10 years. So from 2005 until 2015, or something like that. I did my own shows. Now in 2015. So in between there, the location itself changed a lot, because when my grandfather would get a tenant for that particular building for some reason, they’ll say, a tomorrow you need to move because because but you can go to the other property, as I guess, yeah. So I kept moving. Okay. And then yeah, and then I moved, it was great was free. So the matter, the moving. And then I started, I think I started renting my own place. At some point, I reached a point where I wanted to close the gallery, because it was stressful somehow. I don’t know, it was just one of those things. You know, you don’t you do something for 10 years, you feel like, what am I doing here? Now in all this time, it doesn’t make me any money. The clientele is also local, the maximum price of an artwork is at $700 at this point, because at the time the gallery was taking 30% I was basically doing charity for 15 years or something of my prime life.
Matthew Dols 12:54
That’s a difficult business model.
Daudi Karungi 12:56
Yeah, yeah. So 2015 I went to Venice to see the finale and in Venice, okay. Everything started around 2012 when some people came to Kampala, some curators mon Jammie came to Kampala to do something with the architect David Adjaye, met some people and who had Ugandan artists who had traveled to Dakar banally. And they had gone to South Africa and wherever, you know, to Germany and so on. And we’re having these conversations about the world outside our world, kind of moving away from our bubble, which we had existed in for a very long time. I remember my friend told me that Oh, Simone jam is coming. I don’t know what I know Simone jam, not by name, but I’m I’m better with artwork is a curator responsible for revenue Ah, which was a magazine that in the 90s started to show African artists in Europe and you know, has created some major works along so somebody was like, Oh, this guy’s coming as I Oh, and David is the lead architect in on the continent that was then a lot of work. I met them we hang out. Then there was some British ladies who came to start a nonprofit center in Kampala for art was called 32 east. So they came also with this kind of energy that talked about global stuff. You know, we got involved in a conversation of globalism, and local, you know, and then at the time, they used to be the East African vnla, which was going on from there SLM, for some years. And that year 2012. They wanted to move it to Kampala, I think Nairobi, Rhonda. So they asked us in Kampala to host it. I don’t remember why but I remember something about the guy who organized it. worked as a diplomat in Dar salam, and he had to go back leave his job. So the project was dying because the Serbia was coined in Kampala. We had raised money we had organized ourselves. So we decided to create something like the Biennale. So we created a thing called club art. Club art was meant to be something about public art, you know, to show art to the Ugandan public. And we organized a fantastic one with shipping containers in 2012. such a wonderful event, but at around the same time clad was also a project that belongs to everybody. Meaning we’re about eight institutions of art. So galleries the museum alyansa francais goatees. zentrum. So all these, you know when something is owned by all, but none becomes a bit of an issue, because you don’t get any continuity. You don’t, decisions are not easily made. And so clatters later become a project for Santa to stps, which is the institution I talked about earlier. So in 2014, we started the Kampala Binali through an organization called Kampala at stressed. Now, in the meantime, I’m running a gallery. But more importantly at this point is that the vnla is useful because there’s a global conversation going on. And nobody knows about compiler and compile and doesn’t know anything about anybody else. In terms of art. compatibly analogy and color art was a tool for local integrations, local artists producing art for the local population, the guy on the streets to come and see what’s happening with art. So installations and public art, for that matter. There was good and all, but we were still not getting out of our bubble. You know, we’re still now our compiler Babel. compiler. banally was meant to forge those conversations, and specifically on the continent we needed to know, artists from Nigeria and South Africa, and Malawi. And we needed all of those artists to know each other. And we formed the first v anally, which was 45 artists, all from Africa, from 23 African countries, and all but about five came to Kampala for a week. This was for the first time one of the and they paid, we didn’t have any money. So they paid for themselves to come to Uganda, Kampala. And for the first time, we had that kind of conversation. I just from South Africa, from Kenya, from Uganda, from Angola. From there, we’re all here. And we did the exhibitions in different galleries and the museum in some places. And that became the beginning of international the day, Uganda went outside his fence, and vice versa. That’s 2014. So the next year 2015 I go to Venice for the VNA. I remember going there and telling somebody because that’s the year that the lead aqui curated it and I remember telling the friend that the banally was like I had gone to heaven at heaven. And while in heaven, you could see God and oh, this angel Miko over there and spend your Gabrielle and that’s, you know, and you probably could see certain or whatever. But the point was it. Remember it was heaven. And because it was curated for the first time by an African, he was even more than, like real Heaven, because then you had all you had everybody in the art world, everyone there. And that changed everything for me. And they said, I must be part of this. Whatever it takes. The gallery must be part of it. Ugandan artists must be part of it. My call must extend to being at this level. So I think while I was at Venice, I started thinking about what do I need to do to be part of this? And quickly I realized, because everybody was there that you could talk to about what you needed to do. But I quickly realized that everybody was there probably asking the same question. You know, when I discovered that wall doesn’t have rules in a way, you know, like people make up their rules as they go. So I realized that this is a place that one can be. I also decided to go home and bring my whole family to the same table. My gallery activity changed, in a sense that we started to look at artists and representing artists, but also practicing the model of gallery representation in an extremely professional way but also to look more into the art and critique the ads that we are showing the world so that we are able to present what is not I’ve been since I started going to 2015 I think semia when Joburg, Johannesburg at fair, I went with one artist was doing a performance piece was at a performance focus that year. While I was there, I asked the curator then to consider an East African to center the next add fair on East Africa, because East Africa had not yet been seen on the job at fair second. So we had a focus on East Africa because of that recommendation, and galleries from Addis Ababa, Nairobi, Kampala, we all were there. Artists there from our regions were there. And that was kind of the beginning. And I joined that kind of fraternity of galleries championing African artists. And in this case, artists that live on the continent, there’s a big difference between artists that there could be African but working in London, and artists working in Kampala, they don’t have the same exposure. And African artists in Africa they are subject matter will be influenced by where they are. So, so many times we’ll find that the, they tend to be more exciting because of if one has been to Africa, they would know how exciting any city in Africa is, because of the nature, the so called non organized nature of Africa can be quite fascinating. There’s a lot going on in the culture in the society that influences the nature of the work. And I think that is what an artist from Africa would show the world, they would show that well, something that has not been seen. But that’s an artist doesn’t have access to materials, okay, maybe they do, even with materials, because they don’t have access to certain wonderful paints, they will create another way to make paint and to paint which brings up a high level of innovation in terms of use of material, but they are not going to be exposed to any markets, they will kind of make this fantastic art, but they will not continue doing it because there will be no market per se, especially if there are no players like my gallery, for instance. I mean, my gallery could have been anywhere in the world at this moment, I could have moved to New York if I wanted, because I can. But that would mean that the artist who is in Uganda cannot walk to a place of inspiration to think different. Because if they came from Africa, and they in Europe, they still have that inspiration. And then they have everything that they have access to materials and all these things. But they also have access to the infrastructure. So they can go to a museum, they can go and see the latest show at the Tate collector can visit their studio, they can be written about by the press, because writer comes from the same city in London or something and they can go to their studio and write about them. curators can access them much easier. So there’ll be part of that big show in Paris or wherever. And in order for a curator to pick an artist from Uganda, they kind of either have to come to Uganda, or they have to meet a dowdy who they would ask for a recommendation. There’s this barrier that makes these two artists different the scheme of things. Well, I
Matthew Dols 23:27
have a question. Early on, you mentioned something about like circumstances in your country. And like I come from America, and I live in Europe now. And and there’s not a lot of like, horrible lead dramatic, you know, so there are no wars, there’s no famine, there’s no like anything like this I generally live in, you know, I don’t know, first world countries. And so I’m wondering like, what are some of the circumstances that you’re talking about? But also, how has that affected the production of art and the engagement with art
Daudi Karungi 24:06
challenges that we have is that our government switched off the internet, because we had elections into the in the entire country. And then they returned the internet, but no social media. So this call we are on is managed is a social media category, which we have, we have to use a VPN in order to access. So every time I’m speaking to you the VPN times out, and then it has to be loaded again, something. So these are some of the challenges that an artist here will have. There’s a lot of gray area, there’s no policy on art in Uganda. So there’s no service appropriation. Again, the second babble, that’s how I managed to do what I do in a place like this because I am able to wake up and do you know, there’s no restrictions per se, because nobody understands what it is that we’re doing here. It says it’s good. But as if it was structured, perhaps I wouldn’t be doing what I do, because then it will become bureaucratic.
Matthew Dols 25:08
Alright, back to the fact that you run an art gallery in Uganda, I’m always interested in a lot of people say, like Americans, by American artists, European by European artists and like, and it’s only those few unique collectors that sort of, you know, choose to collect Asian art or African art or some or some basically someplace where they don’t live or is their heritage. So when it comes to your collectors and your your, the people that you sell your your artists works to, are they do you find that they’re mostly African? Or are there people all over the world collecting for from you
Daudi Karungi 25:47
a bit of both. But since 2020, with a pandemic, we got a surge in black collectors, mostly from the US. But we’ve been selling art to African collectors on the continent, and a lot of major collection, putting together a collection of contemporary African art. We’ve been selling to them. But 2020 brought in individuals who are in the US were create collecting, and that led to more individuals from pretty much all over the world with sought work to collect us in Brazil, in Rio de Janeiro, in Japan, Middle East, and Europe. And I think because of the pandemic, there’s a way it democratized art, in a sense that when it’s when the shutdown happened, whoever was on social media is the one who was sin. Somehow, I remember seeing this big New York galleries on social media and some smaller galleries knew better than they could do.
Matthew Dols 26:52
What How has the whole COVID lockdowns, all this kind of stuff affected both your ability to produce, exhibit and sell in Uganda. But also, then, of course,
Daudi Karungi 27:04
worldwide, production has not been affected per se, because COVID instructed us to go home and stay there. So artists went home and stayed there working. But it affected us in the form of exhibitions, we don’t have local visitors to the gallery, even now that restrictions are lifted. You know, people don’t want to be in crowds, you know, they don’t want to go out they will really limit where they go. It has definitely affected our ability to show internationally at International Affairs has affected our ability to travel. So as much as we are doing, okay, because of the previous work, we had done 320 20 COVID, we could do much more. If we could travel, if we could attend art fairs, if we could continue to present meet other people, we now have to meet online, it has its advantages, because I’ve been contacted by some people that probably would never contact me. Again, boy,
Matthew Dols 28:09
this boy that VPN really doesn’t like you
Daudi Karungi 28:12
does not like and this is I mean, internet was fine the whole day. And just at the time when we decided to meet, it goes off. And I don’t know what that means.
Matthew Dols 28:24
Okay, you were in the middle of talking about democratizing The COVID was the democratizing because you were being connected to people that you would never would have the opportunity to be connected to before COVID.
Daudi Karungi 28:37
I think back in the day you you traveled, went to this event in New York, and you met these people at that event, and those people became the people that you connect with in that thing that you do that now people don’t travel. So everybody has resorted to being online, and by being online means that you can meet anybody that you want to meet. And if there is substance wear with that person that you’re trying to meet, you will most probably make a connection. And you must probably make build a relationship. When you went to an art fair, somebody could be dressed up. And that’s that you get to be part of a certain clique. But now you join the clique because you have something to do and something that matters to that ecosystems. I think that opportunity has come up and I’m sure everybody else has managed to speak to different kinds of people during this. And I think after this pandemic, we will have a different kind of ecosystem, a different kind of art world. I think there’ll be new relationships 1000s that will affect the old relationships and a new future will be built based on that.
Matthew Dols 29:49
I noticed in your yours. website for the gallery that you all were at the Abu Dhabi Art Fair. What What year did you go there?
Daudi Karungi 29:58
I didn’t go there. was last year we went, we participated for the first time in Abu Dhabi. It was an online fair. So it wasn’t a physical fair. But there was a lot of interaction. There was the program was quite interactive.
Matthew Dols 30:14
Well, I lived in Abu Dhabi for six years, I was kind of hoping that we may have crossed paths at an art fair, but we didn’t if he was just last year,
Daudi Karungi 30:22
no, no, no.
Matthew Dols 30:26
No, you also started art criticism journal. It’s called start. What brought you so I mean, the thing is, is like you’re writing so many different things like you’re practicing artists of your own work, you’re running a gallery, you’re being a sort of independent curator, you’re running an art fair. And you also then create a publication that criticizes Well, all your other jobs.
Daudi Karungi 30:59
I’m no longer practicing artists since five years now. Okay, so that title, I took it off, because I’m too busy for it. To focus. Well, the journal came about in 2007, in because in 2004, something like that, when I just started the gallery, I started this conversations on the ecosystem of art in Uganda. And I started the general, because at the same time, there was a need for a museum. So we wanted to build a museum in 2004. But we had no clue what it takes, we still don’t know what it takes. But more importantly, we didn’t have the money to build it, or the collection to build it, or the the stories to archive, we decided to create a journal called start journal, it means to start, you know, like the question of when is the best time to do something, you do it when you start. Also, it is written St. I remember the first logo was st dot art, like St. Art, like this, you know, so the magazine was to be like the saint at. But the idea of the magazine was to archive to review, critique and therefore archive activity in Uganda since from 2007, because there was no material written about at practices that were going on in Uganda, that Madison is still on is now online. But a few years ago, he lost the energy because it is a purely nonprofit, and nobody wants to write for free, and I don’t have the money to invest in it. And I don’t have the writers to invest the money into, right, because we have another bigger problem. We don’t have enough good writers in Uganda, we might have one or two. And if one were to start writing for you, they can’t write for you 10 articles a year, because then come staff writers. Over the years, we have developed some initiatives and workshops on critical writing. One of the things that I really wish I could overcome is to help develop a group of writers, critical art writers in this country, because they’re essential to writing our stories. There’s a few developing, but there needs to be like real effort in that direction. So that the magazine or the journal didn’t die, but you can ill and affected by the lack of writers. So it’s in hospital, but not in intensive care can be visited.
Matthew Dols 33:38
All right. You mentioned the idea of they trying to create museums and other things like this in Uganda. And I recently actually had a guest on the podcast, who is a specialist in African art. And we talked about the idea of repatriation of works, that historical works and cultural items that were taken from different countries. Is this a question that you also sort of think about the idea of having things that are, you know, in museums around the world repatriated to Uganda,
Daudi Karungi 34:12
I’ve had this whole repatriation thing and the problem, we don’t have museums, we don’t have a space and wanted to come back if it is there. So I haven’t done any research on what exists. I know a lot of stuff exists in the UK in the National Gallery, because of the colonial past, UK being whatever it was to Uganda, a lot went away. But my bigger before I even look at what went away and whether for this to come back. I think about what where it goes. You see we have this Uganda Museum, which is a museum in itself, like the museum holds these artifacts, old cultural material, but the museum is also a museum in a sense. Everything is being archived. Including itself, meaning there’s no growth, there’s no you know, known change and growth and cutter this, nothing is happening in that direction. And that the only space that we have that is doing that, of course, there’s no government interest in cultural development, there’s no conversation in government talking about developing space for art and culture, presentation or exhibition. When it comes to Uganda as part of repatriation, I think what I would do, I would want to know what exists that belongs to Uganda, and why it is, and then I would sign a memorandum of understanding of custody. I say, Okay, this is ours, and this is it there and this here with you keep it for us. Until when we can find what, but which is not the same in Nigeria, or pending something. I think in West Africa, they’ve developed this structures. I think, in Nigeria, for instance, they have this privately owned museums and places like that. And I think such should recall the the art and artifacts, so that they can go back to where they belong. But on this question of museums, I also believe an African Museum of today, kind of has to be different. I don’t think it’s a building anymore. I think it’s community. I’ve been asking myself this question, but I never get around to think about the right answer to it. But I feel like a museum being a room and the house that people enter and look at things is so boring.
Matthew Dols 36:43
Okay,
Daudi Karungi 36:45
I don’t know, I just, I travel a lot. And they visit us in I travel for for work, which is a lot. And I rarely enter a museum, I did so in the beginning of my travels. And I went to a few of them. And I just realized how boring and cold museums can be when you enter there. They have the air condition. So the bit code I come from Africa is very hot, you go in there, and it’s like, cold and quiet, and kind of depressing. And sometimes you see something nice, but I think there’s a need to think about that scene called Museum in a totally different way, in a in a modern way, in a way of today. In a contemporary.
Matthew Dols 37:26
Well, the big museums are very devoid of context. Like they basically just have like, you know, bare walls, quiet spaces, and they just say, Hey, this is a beautiful object, appreciate it. But But you don’t. You don’t get the the feeling and the moods and the lifestyle and the time period and all the kinds of things like it’s it’s removed from all of those things and displaced in this sort of sterile environment, and you’re supposed to appreciate it or not. And that’s it. So that that is a general issue of upmost museums, unfortunately.
Daudi Karungi 38:01
Yeah. And that’s the problem. There’s a need to change that. Otherwise, they die. The other is they become they become museums. They do become museums in and of themselves. Yes. Yeah. All right.
Matthew Dols 38:17
So when you travel around, I imagine that you probably have common questions that people ask you, you know, like, why should I be collecting Ugandan art? What are you What? What are some of those kinds of questions that come up frequently for you that you have to somehow eggs explain or defend for the potential people that might be interested?
Daudi Karungi 38:42
The first question is Where is Kampala, Uganda for that matter?
Matthew Dols 38:48
I looked it up before I got on here with you to be honest.
Daudi Karungi 38:52
Yes. Believe it or not, that question comes up a lot when I go to art fairs, or when I travel. And I tell them to Google it. But the other question is, there’s a lack of knowledge of who the artists are. And who because people are not curious enough. People are lazy, they just want to see whoever New York Times writes about or the ad newspaper or whatever. And then the cons are, we want that artist. But real collectors must look for art. And they must look for art in the right places, I think. So people don’t know the artists. So they ask a lot about who is the artist and apart from asking the country, they ask about the artist. And sometimes I find it so disturbing to explain who the artist is, and how old are they whatever. And probably they want to see a picture of the artist or something like that. And that patch really bothers me. Because I mean, the business of selling art, I’m not selling artists. So when people ask me about the artist, it’s just too much energy explaining who the artist is. We are almost towards a sale. If I say this, we are going to make the sale. And I’ll tell you, in a way, like towards the end, and if I mentioned this then and I could even sweeten it make it to be like, yeah, it’s lovely young man was like, oh, okay, I’ll buy it. Eventually, picture. Whoa, Okay, wait, I
Matthew Dols 40:23
have a question or within what you just said about like, not selling the artists but selling the art? Do. I didn’t do huge amounts of research sadly. And, like in America and Europe, we’re emphasized on like, not only making beautiful or engaging works of art, but we’re also encouraged to be able to write eloquently create artist statements, and all these other kinds of things. Is this something that’s, that’s a key component in it in the art world in Africa also?
Daudi Karungi 40:58
know it’s come up. And I remember back in the day, it was a big deal, you know, artist statements. And even when, as an artist, I think I never wrote an artist statement. It’s just so hard. We are artists, we’re not writers.
Matthew Dols 41:12
Thank you. I agree. 100% require
Daudi Karungi 41:14
to have an artist statement. And I think that idea didn’t work. And I think till today, the idea of artists writing artist statement as well, I think it should create artwork that could compel writers to write about it and collect us to collect it, it’s come up because obviously, our system is borrowed system, a Western system that, you know, even when you Google how to be an artist, they will probably somebody who said we have to write a good artist statement, and whatever and and, and so on and so forth. Like when you ask me how to be an artist here as you make art. And what is art, it’s not painting. It’s not whatever you make, whatever you think is art and a lot of art in Uganda, but also in Africa has no definition. We know that there are paintings, we know that their drawings on paper, we know the inks on paper, we know they’re bronze sculpture, or whatever. But I have an artist who works with paper, it makes paper beads and makes huge tapestries that are some magical, I have another artist who melt plastic bottles with sand and some of the stuff and creates this incredible sculptures. So I don’t know whether it’s called a paper bit wax sculptural. And the question of statement is very, I don’t I don’t think it has succeeded. And I’ve also worked with artists who are fantastic writers, and some of them have ended up telling them that you are a fantastic writer, meaning not a fantastic artist, but a fantastic right. And the point here we were artists shouldn’t be writers. I love
Matthew Dols 42:51
it. Other people are more for it. Now, you mentioned like using what I would define as non traditional materials, you know, melted plastic sand these kinds of things. Like, I mean, I come from the Euro centric, American centric background of like, you know, oil painting, bronze sculpting all this kind of stuff like so are, are the mediums that are used by the artists you represent, or even just the artists, you know, do they? Are they trying to fit into that sort of Eurocentric thing? Or are they really embracing the fact that like, they, they seem to like, it sounds really bad. Okay, the way that me as a non African as an outsider, look at a lot of African art, it’s often recycling or using available materials in order to be expressive and creative. Like is, is that right? Or is this propaganda? I don’t know.
Daudi Karungi 43:56
I think where your question started from artists using this tradition of materials, the thing is, everybody and what I’ve noticed is because I’ve been doing this for 20 years, I’ve noticed artists starting off with whatever comes to mind, which I call original. And then lately I see an artist working with because the top artists from Africa on at sea is making paintings so they start making paintings, and they’re really good at making paintings. If they’re making portraits, they make fantastic better than that top artists on ads, you know, but then they lose the other thing that they were doing there was so unique that brought them even the little fame and, and the money that they got at the time. And I’ve also seen that the moment they start doing this paintings, they don’t make any more money. If they were making money, they make the same money and so on and so forth. I find that it’s I think it’s freedom of expression. And people are not using it very well. In Africa, because of the West, there is this need African artists to paint and sculpt in bronze, and make paintings look like the Mona Lisa or sculptures that look like David. And that’s so sad, because with the just individuality that lies with artists today in Africa, especially, is so strong that if only they did that, and if institutions like mine continued to identify those artists and bring them to the world, the world is going to see different art and it will be better, the art world would be a better place, and enjoyable, with less repetitions.
Matthew Dols 45:40
Oh, I agree, they completely, you know, like a good Asian artists should not be working like the Mona Lisa, and a great African artist should be, you know, doing the things that are inherent to their culture and their life and their lifestyles. I mean, it’s fascinating how people do sort of pick up on these sort of almost homogenized versions of like, Oh, this is what the art world wants, this is what I should try to do, which is a very unfortunate situation.
Daudi Karungi 46:11
Yeah, it is. It’s quite unfortunate. So when people say, Oh, I’m using this, the best my oil paints come from France and from the factory that Rembrandt used. And so you know, and you’re like, what the heck, you know? Just, yeah, so you need to fix it.
Matthew Dols 46:31
But it’s, it’s like the old saying, you know, a poor musician, blames his instrument. So that, yeah, just having great materials does not make you a great artist, its ability to be expressive,
Daudi Karungi 46:44
correct. And if it’s paint that works for you, let it be, but you should start from the point of, I mean, I have a residency program that I started a year ago, and to join my private. So to join it, you must be able to see something else in you that beyond what I’ve ever seen. The idea is that when you live, you’ve created something that is so yours that no one can take away from you. No, and now it becomes up to you whether you’re going to grow it and make use of it or not, because everybody has their thing. And we need to develop our things. Well,
Matthew Dols 47:22
I mean, that’s an interesting question that I often ask a lot of gallerists. Like, if you’re looking at an artist who’s asking for representation with you, what are some of the characteristics that say, this is somebody I want to work with?
Daudi Karungi 47:37
and look for really unique artists, I look for an artist whose work or style of work I’ve never seen. And if I’ve ever seen it, I want to be able to compare it with who I saw it with. And then see how different it is. If that style is like the other one, I will not take that advice. Because I pride myself of exception artists, I want to say oh, this, nobody like this. So I don’t want say nobody like this. And then and then say Oh, but this one is like the 10 gems, then I’ll be like, Oh shit. So that is one thing I look out for then too. I look out for an artist. Okay, once you’re an artist was making something exceptional. I look at your ability to grow. Is there room for this artist working like this to grow? What can they do with this? What What is the bigger picture? If they were to present something that BNL a major work? What would it look like? And is it possible and so on? What is the extent of growth for this artist? And then lastly, I look at their professionalism. What kind of artists are you because in Africa, we have another problem, which is loyalty. So you find that if a Ugandan gallery, like myself gets an artist, and they invest, because galleries invest a lot of money and time in artists to make them who they become when you do that. You don’t want to invest so much money, and then some gallerist from New York or Germany, or check comes in and comes in and says, Oh, hey, you artists, and so and so I was part of the Christie’s something, something and I did the blah, blah, blah with so and so. And I went to work with you in a place in Miami, you know, for artists will be like, oh my god that’s in Miami. She worked with so and so. And she has a nice picture on the internet that makes it look like a model or whatever I say, Oh, I will. And then they kind of sneak off and start working with this other person. But this other person does not even have the courtesy to go to the gallery that they saw the work at and say, hey, these are artists that you have. I’m sure you’ve put so much effort in them. How do we work together? If we can push this artist whatever ahead, and then becomes a three way negotiation, or the collectors who will come and they look at the artists production, say this artist makes one painting a month, and then they’ll say, I’m going to buy all your work. And the price at the moment could be like $2,000 a painting. So I’m going to buy all your work that you make, you only sell it to me, and they can even advance you money, I can give you more than you need, I’ll even give you a place to work from now, for artists like Oh, great, I’m going to earn money for everything that I touch. And then they can be able to buy that car and that jacket and that shoe that they’ve been looking at, and whatever it is that they want. And then they lose that horse. So they spent five years working with this person, and they lose that whole growth, exposure opportunity. So I look for artists that have faith, and I can trust to have some loyalty to understand that this is a long game. And we have to play it that way. There is no one who has ever made it quickly. And they stayed there. And there is no one who has made it without people they trust. Everybody that I’ve known who moved in that direction. And they ended up with some people who look nicer, or look like models and dropped names. They go and they quickly regret it. And it often ends in tears. Because they are talented, they might bounce back because they’re talented. But nobody would want to touch them because they’re banned. No collectors would want them because these capitalists will grab and mess them up and their market and their value and their image to a point that I look at this galleries, they’re like scavengers, and then moves away. So when I can’t see that in the beginning with an artist, I can’t work with them because I have no, I’ve lived enough time in this industry to know where to waste my time. Alright,
Matthew Dols 52:03
let’s wrap this up. So I have two last sort of questions. One is I would love to hear three artists that you somehow inspire you that you somehow that you think nature does should be getting more exposure.
Daudi Karungi 52:18
Three artists, and fortunately, unfortunately they’re going to Well, not really was going to say that we’re going to be mine but I’ll add a fourth who is not mine. So the first one is a artist called Henry Mozilla machanga is Ugandan is a painter. He is responsible for movements of artists in Uganda, I think, mid 90s to today and is still a practicing artist is extremely intelligent. And yes, you can see his work on my website, Henry Mozilla mutunga. This young man Richard at Gonzaga, who is currently working with plastic, and all sorts of mixed media is young man, but extremely dedicated to the work that he does. And I’ve never seen anything like this in my entire sculpture research works like the ones that he makes, I find them quite original and and they know the person, the artist who grows every time I see his new work, it is different and better than the last one and so on. So I believe these are artists that are going to be extremely successful. There is an artist who is already doing very well good swing game Langa. She’s doing extremely well today and said we’re working together about two years ago. She’s a self taught artist who just was in banking, and then moved to art and she’s just phenomenal. And the one that is not with the gallery, but I’ve worked with is called Gaia musky. Gaia Musk is Congolese, I did a show with a group show where I featured three of his works. And they acquired one. And I think he’s extremely talented is a collage artist. Fantastic collage. I’ve never seen anything like that. So I have this interest in artists from East Africa as well. So it’s just because nowhere in the world do you find East African artists represented, I find that that should be done. Alright.
Matthew Dols 54:22
Last question would be any advice to the next generation,
Daudi Karungi 54:27
the next generation of artists so gallerists?
Matthew Dols 54:31
Which whichever you think you have better advice for?
Daudi Karungi 54:34
I would say for for artists, they should. I recently wrote in an interview that I just should add being an artist a calling, and if you hear your calling, you have to answer it and put work into it. Not everybody I know now is a good artist, the exceptional artists who we see like I just like some guy that we see that everybody has Doors is not because they were promoted by somebody is because that is their thing. But the other thing that I see with them is that they put so much work that they work nine to five, they work eight hours a day, Monday to Saturday, just like anybody who works in the bank or something like that. I would advise artists, when you find your thing, just keep working. Don’t worry about selling your work, or who will buy or whatever, just keep working. Because it is only the work that you create, that people buy. This award that you create, the people write about. It is the work that you create that is exhibited. It is the result of your work that we celebrate, not the idea of your possible work. And to collectors, I think they should look and stop following names that are published by whether because know that the names that are published are all wrong. It’s just one must do own research, try to understand an artist and try to understand where the artist is coming from. And more importantly, does collect as you look into Africa, artists on the continent, because there’s no there’s very limited visibility for these artists. And it is necessary that is artists a sin. They are collected, they’re encouraged. And they are celebrated. Because an artist in New York is easier for them to see that gallerist or that collector that person than an artist in Kampala, and lastly to the gallerist new galleries should they should not find developed artists and take them away from the galleries that have developed them. Because it’s like poaching is silly go in Africa, when you go to the national paths. All right. Yeah.
Matthew Dols 56:50
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much for your time.
Daudi Karungi 56:53
Thank you.
Matthew Dols 56:54
I hope I’ve answered some of your questions, or this has been amazing. You’re literally my first guest from the entire continent of Africa. Wow. Very exciting for me.
Daudi Karungi 57:06
Fantastic. This
Matthew Dols 57:11
The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com