Transcript for Episode 177 – Director of Bergen Kunsthall, Axel Wieder (Norway)

Recorded April 25, 2021
Published June 1, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/director-of-bergen-kunsthall-axel-wieder-norway/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Matthew Dols 0:12
Could you please pronounce your name correctly? For me?

Axel Wieder 0:15
Axel Wieder, it’s German last name, first name something Nordic, which was joys of my parents kind of fashionable direction at the time of my birth. Now I’m working. So it’s not a short name. Now I’m working actually since a while in Scandinavia, so it is kind of fitting. Right?

Matthew Dols 0:35
So okay, speaking of childhood and parents, I’m always interested. So you’re the director of a museum or a console to be specific, and a curator and writer and all that. So how did you even get created? So were your parents creative? Like, how did you even come into this sort of the arts industry,

Axel Wieder 0:54
not through my parents, I think my mother was very interested in culture, but more into antiques we did travels to Italy, to France to see remnants of Roman culture. So it wasn’t even openness to culture and an interest in history. But I was kind of like very early on drawn to like classic avant garde modernist avant garde like data. And writing that came from, I guess, like early 20th century radical questioning of how writing functions, how sensors produced within texts. So that was like, in my teenage years, maybe that kind of like, teenager interest also in making sense of the world, and how all this kind of nonsense might also make sense. There was this kind of early interest in avant garde culture and started going to museums and being drawn to kind of radical, I guess, thoughts and artistic Baroque, but it didn’t have so much to do with my parents. If I think of it, it was more of a kind of like, attraction to radical ideas that came from

Matthew Dols 1:57
I don’t know, me and friends that enjoyed doing that together with me. So that was your rebellious phase was to get into the avant garde.

Axel Wieder 2:05
Yeah, I guess I guess there was not too much dance that too, but I guess it was connected to that. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 2:12
Yeah. Like punk rock would be my thing for sure. Because I grew up in Washington, DC. So the, the whole straightedge movement and all those gangs, but yeah, yeah, I guess a similar time in phase in life for the listeners who are worldwide. And I’m doing this because I’m an idiot. And I was unaware of what a cool install is. Truly, so they give me a definition of what exactly a con stall is, because it’s different than a museum. It’s different than a gallery. It’s its own thing.

Axel Wieder 2:42
It’s initially a German term. homestyle is definition, something that connects to the German speaking context, mainly Germany. And speaking about 18th 19th century aristocracies still had strong hands on production and presentation and financing of culture. So it was basically it was one of the institutions that were born out of aristocrats displays of their collection. Strangely enough, it has a very different meaning today. So the Queen style where I’m working now, Ben Coinstar in Bergen, Norway, adopted this name from the German speaking context, and they took it. This happened in 2002. When the institution I’m working for today, at that time, called baggers concerning decided to change the working model and adopt a new name. So they went for constant bourbon Coinstar, with the aim of like connecting to a kind of more internationally renowned all kinds of people know what it means. But it’s historically a bit imprecise. So nowadays, it means an institution, mid size, similar size to museum to small museum, but not having a collection. That’s the main difference. Like we don’t have a collection. Many quintiles don’t have a collection, they show temporary exhibitions, often newly produced works by artists, non commercial, usually, it’s funded by some kind of public money, often by a city. We are, in fact, mainly supported by the state by the cultural ministry. So but if you want to have a precise answer about the Jim Quinn style, it’s difficult and full of misunderstandings.

Matthew Dols 4:18
No, I think you did a pretty good job because there you know, there’s of course, there’s always a difference between its origin versus its contemporary use. But the the big thing that I found out that I had no idea about coming from America, where we don’t have thumb was that it’s more or less a museum without a collection, which I found very interesting. I was unaware of that slight little differentiation.

Axel Wieder 4:44
That’s true. And I have to say, though, that there’s even like to make it more even more kind of complicated in terms of definitions. We do actually we in bourbon Coinstar. We have a very busy events program. We have a very busy learning program that we run with schools. With other parts, like older grownups who want to learn something, and that’s typically also like not something that consoles are doing. So in a way, we’re more also kind of center for contemporary art, a very open public institutions that embraces all kinds of engagement with contemporary art.

Matthew Dols 5:17
Okay, so one thing I’m fascinated about is the funding models that exist in Norway and other Scandinavians. But of course, you’re in Norway. So we’ll stick with that. They have an amazing funding structure for arts and culture. I mean, coming from America, I am incredibly envious of the way it seems to run up there. So what so it’s your control is funded by city government, so on? And so there’s no need to find sponsorships or sponsor or support or anything like that? Because there is a strong infrastructure? Am I right, or am I wrong?

Axel Wieder 5:57
Yeah, the tendency is, right, there is a strong funding and support system that is a kind of strong culture is really part of public policies. So there is support, and it’s understood as a kind of, it’s an important thing that the public pays for, and people pay for by the Texas. That said, still some gaps. I mean, we do a lot of fundraising work ourselves as well. Often towards public funders, to arts foundations, we work with kind of often visual, a lot of international artists. So there’s often possibilities to raise money from work in context of these artists speak public sources or be private money. And, of course, we also work with sponsors here in the city in the region, it is also part of our income. But you I mean, you’re right in tendency that just to say that it’s a kind of it’s a it’s a wonderful situation. I mean, it’s important to see that this is connected with the kind of remnants of the welfare state that still exist in Norway, politics have also changed. Also, the kind of public sector has changed, but there is still believe in public sphere in public administration and in functions that are supported by these agencies by the tax money.

Matthew Dols 7:10
I love it. I wish I was born into it. Because from what I understand, more or less, you either have to be a citizen of that region or have a full time job or own property in that region in order to get any of those financial benefits, right.

Axel Wieder 7:25
It’s relatively open. It’s I mean, of course, again, like this in order to get I mean, if you can visit everything, you can come as a tourists, you can see all the museums, you can I mean, under normal circumstances, once the corona situation will have improved a bit and traveling is possible again. Yeah, no, that’s possible, of course. And I think also, there is a relatively low compared with other countries. It’s a relatively open funding system. Also, artists that we work with can apply for projects, even though they’re not Norwegian and it just the project that happens in Norway, that’s also possible.

Matthew Dols 8:01
Oh, that’s magnificent. Okay. I didn’t know that. So what’s the mission of Bergen is am I pronouncing that correctly? Bergen? kunsthall. Yes. Good. Close. Perfect. Now, no, no, it’s not that, but but it’s more of a burden than Bergin. Right? Yeah. Or bagon. bagon?

Axel Wieder 8:24
Yeah. I’m a Norwegian myself. I’m actually I’m German. Okay. I’m a foreigner as well. And it’s my fourth language. Wow,

Matthew Dols 8:33
you all are so much better at languages than we are in America. Like, I barely speak English, for God’s sakes. So anyways, the mission of the of the constar. Because I can say that word correctly. So yeah, I mean, so like, what is the mission? is it intended to be supportive of its local community is intended to be international and bring things in from outside in order to sort of enhance the local art scene, like, what’s the purpose,

Axel Wieder 9:02
and the purpose is to show contemporary art with the international perspective in Bergen. That’s the kind of purpose it’s to make contemporary art, ideas, discussions, in all it’s kind of like wideness breath available to show it to people living and working here. Bergen is a small city, relatively small, 280,000 inhabitants. It’s the second largest city in Norway, though it’s after Oslo is the second city and it used to be at some point, the capital, that’s a long time ago, but it’s still a kind of sore feeling about that. You know, it’s in many countries, we have this kind of rivalry between the largest city and the coolest city and Bergen is in a way, clearly this coolest city in the country that sees itself as our that we all see escadrille capital in Norway, but still like in absolute terms, comparing it to other cultural capitals in Europe. It’s a small city, but it is is a very active and busy cultural scene, this art academy, that’s now part of the university, but started as its own institution. There’s an architecture school also one of the only three architecture schools in our way does Music Academy, there’s a big musical tradition about Greek was born or worked in Bergen and lift Yum, died here and installed a big Music Festival. So there’s, there’s kind of this cultural tradition and really a contemporary, very busy scene. So the console is clearly part of that in terms of present of being a presentation platform showing things that are happening in the city and bringing also artists from abroad or other parts of the country to kind of feed in to give back kind of new impulses here. But we are, again, like it’s a public institution. So we have a much wider audience than that as well, like people who are interested in art and culture. And maybe like further, kind of in I mentioned this shift in 2002, when the Queen style changed its name and its operational model. That was to embrace the kind of internationalization and professionalization of the arts field in Norway as a whole. And the mandate for the Queen’s tie was to basically it was the most international place in the country and bringing those interesting, most well known artists to the country and producing the most outstanding and professionally made exhibitions, you know, there’s two types of making exhibitions. One is like bringing artwork from somewhere and showing them and then there’s this kind of more production focused approach, meaning inviting an artist to react to the situation, to react to the spaces to also do research and understand what might be really fitting for a location. And that was very much embraced by the constant at that point, to really enable artists to make new work to make new exhibitions and to facilitate them doing that. NET requires expertise, long term planning, also resources. And that was kind of what the Coinstar got as a kind of major quality.

Matthew Dols 12:03
So when you’re planning your program for the future, how do you sit down and like, literally, you could do an exhibition about any topic in the world. But somehow you’ve refined it down to a certain set of topics? How do you even choose which topics to sort of address or cover?

Axel Wieder 12:21
It’s one of the crucial questions and a really complicated question. And it has to do with experience. And I guess, also, sometimes gut feelings, which is maybe important to realize that a lot is kind of like generalized experience. But of course, there’s some kind of like external aspects. And then this kind of strategic questions, especially for a place like bourbon, I thought it was, it’s very important that the program actually makes sense in the location where we are, it shouldn’t be a program that’s kind of could happen in exactly the same way as in, I don’t know, other cities on the main cultural kind of hubs in the world, it would be something that actually makes sense here in this context, in this kind of specific situation with, I don’t know, uncertain history, and also things happening here at that moment. So there should be some kind of context, specificity or kind of reaction to what’s happening here. And what’s kind of important than disgust you. And then I mean, it’s a lot has to do with research very frank, I look at a lot of art, and I look at art together with my colleagues, and we discuss it. And I talk to people, maybe that’s, yeah, I guess that’s what’s called network then, of course, I listened to people who have interesting suggestions, that comes together with a kind of quite clear ambition for the institution I’m working for. When I want to make a program as interesting and great and forward thinking as possible, I have an ambition that the program is also politically irrelevant that it does something to the side to the discussion, there should be some kind of awareness about things that go on in the world and urgent things that can respond to, there’s a kind of art cannot do art can solve problems in the world. But there is a role for art in feeding in or having a voice in these discussions and to figure that out and find out is to actually manage to do that work with us

Matthew Dols 14:26
is important. Okay, I want to get really pedantic with you, like super specific on that. I’m not a fan like so this is totally my personal opinion. And I’m projecting this onto this. I’m not a fan of like what I call political art. And I know that there’s there’s a subtle difference between like, political art and art that is politically motivated or politically based. So like, What’s to you? Like? What’s the difference between what I would like to meet political artists like when I think of that I think of like Russian propaganda or something like that that’s political, that’s art designed for political purposes, versus art that discusses political issues, but it’s not necessarily the primary part of it.

Axel Wieder 15:13
Yeah, I can see where you’re coming from. And like, I mean, I lived for many years to Berlin. And as I mentioned, I’m initially My background is raised in Germany. And of course, I mean, this kind of question of like, the freedom of the West versus ideology of the East is kind of like, ingrained in everybody who grew up in Germany, in the 90s, I can see that like, I would completely agree with you that art gets very boring if it becomes just a deliverer of message if it becomes more of a kind of design. But I must say, maybe that has changed over the past couple of years a bit, I do find it interesting to rediscover a kind of more haffley ideologically framed attempt to articulate something within the arts, the world at the moment is ideologically, already so divided. It’s, I mean, wherever you go on every question, there is this kind of like people know already so much, they really know. And they don’t want to know, other things. I mean, even if Lao with Corona, every country has its kind of section of Corona navigators or critics of vaccination programs, etc. And there’s a lot of knowledge of this counter knowledge and people know what they want to know. Sometimes I wonder if it’s also in the arts, good to be more clear about standpoints than trying to assume this position of the kind of neutral or quasi objective, discursive observer or some, I mean, that there’s often this kind of, I would also continue to subscribe to an idea of art, it’s very reflected in thinking through its means of representation. It was always like, if you look back into art history, most interesting points in art history are not necessarily about which King is depicted. But the way that depicted how an artist takes these means and slightly shifters, the kind of modes of representation for a king and thereby criticizing or commenting or kind of slightly subverting the normative frameworks of representation. And that’s really interesting for me,

Matthew Dols 17:22
yeah, now that idea of addressing a political thing in some sort of subtle way like this, I feel like is somehow more, it’s both a little bit more provocative, but it’s also a little bit more impactful. Like I would react more to something sort of suddenly integrated than if somebody hits me over the head with it.

Axel Wieder 17:43
Exactly. And I can see that but I do think maybe I’m at the moment really interested in in kind of functions for art institutions. That’s no more speaking about institutional perspective. I’m interested in other institutions that understand themselves as agencies for progress, or for ambitious and liberating and advanced kind of political discussion. And that means somewhat, yeah, political leaning. At the moment, I think this is really necessary, this too much happening in other parts of society that need some kind of countering that.

Matthew Dols 18:19
I’m all for political discussion and political discourse. I think that’s all fabulous. I’m not questioning that. But it’s like political art, like art with the intention of of propaganda, I guess, is really the thing I’m coming back to in my mind, I keep thinking of propaganda art every time I think of political art, but you have to understand I grew up in Washington, DC. So like, I’m so tired of politics period. My father’s a minister, so I also don’t talk about religion very much either. So yeah, just it’s not my thing. But, but like, there’s a great role of a place like a consultant to at least engage in the discussions about political concerns. That seems right. I’m all for that. As I said, I’m being super pedantic on this book, and I apologize.

Axel Wieder 19:13
No, it’s an important discussion to like, what kind of like political role connections in art institutions have an art institution? Have you noticed? Often, like, if you look at ways that institutions describe what they do for in terms of diversity, for example, there’s often this kind of description of like, an institution should reflect the diversity of society today, that’s completely true. There should be a kind of connection to reality. But I do think I would even go a step further, actually, that institutions also should struggle or fight for more diversity. It shouldn’t just reflect, I think there should be this moment of being an active agent of pushing development even further to kind of recognize the diversity within society, and to an Standard as a kind of important quality,

Matthew Dols 20:02
what have you run into a point where you’ve like maybe gone over a line, like pushed a little too hard? Because I mean, there’s that fine line in most institutions. So like, not necessarily your own style, but, you know, public institutions that are seeking other funding other than government kind of stuff. Like, there’s only so far you can go or you might offend a potential sponsor or a potential client or whatever kind of thing, like so like, have you run into any sort of pushback from maybe you could go crossing a line?

Axel Wieder 20:33
No, I don’t think so. I don’t think actively it’s yet no, no, I don’t think that’s a danger. It’s more like the type of institution that is very collectible art, that’s maybe not necessarily fitting in our vision or our direction that we’re working with. Hence, we maybe don’t have some of the connections to kind of important collectors who are also then possible sponsors, this may be something that’s not just not establishing, because it’s not so much place within our work at the moment.

Matthew Dols 21:04
Okay, that whole thing right there. That’s fascinating to me the whole like making art, that’s not collectible. I was raised and taught on the idea of like, artists, something that should be able to be appreciated in any situation. So you should have it in your home, you could have a did your office, you could have it at a museum or institution, you know, sort of objects that can be collected by people basically. But there’s this huge move movement, advancement of sort of experiential, time based location based artwork that they basically when it’s done, or the only thing left of it is the documentation of it. So that scene, it sounds like something that you’re more interested in at this point. Yes. No, I mean, I wouldn’t say that. Sorry. That sounded a bit too pompous. Yeah. I went too far.

Axel Wieder 21:58
No, no, no, they certainly know what I mean is like with the artists that are kind of like, they were loved by by collectors and the dartboard a lot by collectors. And I don’t know that artists that are connected to some major commercial galleries. And then there’s a lot of other stuff that happens around that. And I do agree that our works that are harder to collect, but I do think that all our drugs are in some way collectible. I mean, of course, video installation, a video can be collected the other specialized collectors who buy that type of work, there’s actually even famous and international and somehow quite busy collectors who collect this type of work this radio shack in Dusseldorf, and now Berlin, who has made a collection on time based, mainly video art. So it’s possible. And that’s also very critical work that is collected. It’s a question if it’s, what does that do to the work? But there is a market for this type of rug as well. Sorry, what was the question? What was the starting point? No,

Matthew Dols 23:03
no, it’s okay. Like I take, I don’t mean, it is some sort of differentiation. I just mean, it is like there’s some sort of a shift. You know, like, when I was young, and in school, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, we were very focused on sort of the object based production so that you, you create an object that you can then take to a gallery to then be able to be sold kind of thing. Whereas it seems like in the past 2025 years, it’s there’s a progression to a bit more of a installation, experiential like it. I feel like it’s becoming a bit more prevalent. I mean, I know it’s always been there. But I think like it’s becoming more common and more prevalent than it had in the past.

Axel Wieder 23:45
Yeah. But then at the same time, there’s also still painting, still drawing still sculpture, and there’s art fairs. Obviously, art fairs are as big as they have never been before. So there’s, maybe that’s my counter argument. So I think there’s both. And what is interesting, though, and that is maybe like you experienced this big exhibitions have become more important in the past 2030 years, like biennales document. And those institutions or exhibition formats in which, like, not necessarily market relevant artistic productions has been shown a lot. So maybe that’s the kind of work that maybe responds to your observation or where observation comes from. Yeah, I mean, there’s one thing which is kind of interesting in that is like, what does it do to the memory of these works are these bugs then if they’re really not collectible or difficult to collect, Will these fall out of the kind of museum circuits so hence, will they be not shown again in 10 2030 years will be not survive? And again, like I do think there is a market for some type of artistic production in this there’s also like, flea collection hamburger Bahnhof. If you have been there. Remember, in Berlin, there was a kind of was also like a major private collector with difficult financial like he had a, his family wealth was in parts produced during fascism in Germany. So this collection embraced kind of more difficult artworks for typical museum display. So that was there. I think the art market is also quite flexible. And of course, there’s always the desire in the art market to collect the most relevant artistic production and the most cutting edge and the most forward thinking, artistic production. That’s why we like for me the kind of question of the art market, it’s also very much like, is this something that actually still is relevant? Like, what do we do with this kind of ambivalent fact that if stuff gets bought by wealthy people, that’s that really mean, it’s getting more important? Is it getting more important because it actually ends up in museums through donations, and these kind of shifts of location to the nations and so on,

Matthew Dols 25:59
my theory would be that art value would go would increase by museum and institutional exhibitions and collections, which then constitute more collectors buying yet. So therefore, sort of, it’s sort of a little bit of a cyclical event, like a collector buy something, maybe because we know this all goes on, a collector buys something, and then the collector happens to be on the board of a museum. So he encouraged the museum to have an exhibition of the artists that he just bought, he or she just bought. And so then because of a museum exhibition, the value of that work is just increased, therefore, the, the more people will then start collecting that person’s work.

Axel Wieder 26:39
Exactly. We’re talking about cybernetics here. It’s about it’s a complex system, horrible.

Matthew Dols 26:48
Anyways, let’s get off the art market, you’re not really in the market kind of stuff. The one thing that I’m interested, though, that I’m fascinated with, but like, I love curators, I think curators are amazing, you are a curator. So I want to sort of ask you my general sort of curatorial questions. What constitutes an artist that somehow grabs your attention? Like there are millions of artists in the world these days, you’re all connected through social media and the internet? How do you choose to engage with or appreciate one artist out of those millions?

Axel Wieder 27:26
So usually, it’s kind of long process. So I see ad works. And sometimes I react quite spontaneously, and I kind of like something grabs my attention, that’s actually really hard to describe, like, what is it? It just tickles? Or it touches on something? I have, at the moment a question for like it basically an answer for something that I’m kind of like asking myself, but usually, before really working with an artist, it takes a longer time, I usually it’s a kind of longer process of following an artist’s work, seeing work, seeing it, hopefully also in physical form, at some point, talking, and then maybe at some point is a calibration of working together. So usually, it’s a quite long process. But it starts with this moment of like actually seeing something, give me a timeline on that long process, because I know of one gallery that like they would, they would see an artist and they would like put a file in their folder, and they would go back to it 10 years later, before they would even think about representing them. Yeah, that’s very long time. But I mean, usually, it’s, I think, two years, it’s maybe like a normal process between seeing something and I don’t know, considering but usually it’s longer. Also like this, of course, artists I have worked with repeatedly throughout my working life. This is like just artists that become close collaborators. And then sometimes I’ve shown artists in a group show and then 10 years later, in a solo exhibition, that also happens,

Matthew Dols 28:52
okay, I want to I’m gonna get really personal with this, like, I’m really bad with that. Because what you just talked about was like, basically, it’s not about making the connections or the quote, unquote, like network, but like, you know, making a relationship with a curator. So they’ll say from an artist perspective, but it’s it’s about maintaining that relationship. And that’s where I fall apart a lots like, what’s the appropriate amount of maintaining of a relationship? Like, do you want me to send you emails every six months? Do you want some letters invites exhibitions? Do we need to go for beer? Like what? What’s the, the level of sort of professionalism without getting annoying and being needy?

Axel Wieder 29:32
Yeah, I mean, but it really has. I guess everybody has some friends that get in touch too often, and other friends who get in touch not often enough, I guess it’s pretty much the same.

Matthew Dols 29:47
Yeah, I fall on the not enough line of that one, unfortunately. Yeah, that’s stupid. Yeah, you should do less podcasts and more phone calls. I haven’t used To phone for a phone call in months. Like we use zoom and everything else these days like Adam, yeah, no, it’s really difficult though, because I find that like you follow if you become friends, so and this doesn’t matter, curator, gallerist, museum person, whatever. Like if an artist becomes friends, then it becomes like almost a conflict of interest to then have them in exhibitions if they’re friends. But if but if you can stay professional, like professional associates, whatever kind of words you want to do it, then it’s perfectly legitimate to sort of include their works into exhibitions. And that’s a really hard line because you want to stay friendly enough that, um, that were on your radar, but not too friendly, that it looks like you’re being sort of almost nepotistic and just putting your friends in exhibitions.

Axel Wieder 30:49
Yeah, that’s true. And that shouldn’t happen. But, you know, the term friend is also a bit like, invaded sometimes. It’s like people one works with and they become nice to see like, friendly, but I don’t have 1000 friends, but I probably have a couple of 100 artists very friendly with that I am in touch with at least occasionally. And let’s see, usually like, I don’t know, when traveling is possible. One meets once in a while somewhere and has a chat, I guess that’s professional network. In the art world, we still call it friends. And I guess it creates this feeling of being on the same room or space and sharing some ideas or ideals. I don’t think it has really something to do with nepotism. It’s more like a kind of discussion. Yeah, it’s important to keep that separate because it is like this kind of a shared discussion that’s very much interest driven. It’s about trying to do good work to work on similar questions to bring the art world and artworks forward and doing good stuff. Alright, when

Matthew Dols 31:56
when I’m thinking about that I’m thinking about like, your curator of an institution, many some like, in my mind, like, keep in mind, I could be totally wrong on this. So please tell me if I’m totally wrong. In my mind, like curators sort of take a position of like, they choose to find the young new artists, the ones burgeoning on the scene, as like their, that’s their mission to sort of find new artists, or they want to choose mid career artists, let’s call them and sort of maybe give them a new context or a fresh, fresh perspective, some sort of newness to their, their career, or they wanted to say like, Okay, I’m gonna bring in the Jeff Koons and Damien Hirst, and we’re just gonna have like a big blue chip thing like that. I feel like there’s sort of like three different tiers of curating. So like, is that does that sound right? And if so, how do you fall into that?

Axel Wieder 32:54
I guess that’s accurate and wouldn’t have come to think about it. So systematically.

Matthew Dols 32:59
I know that systems I want systems, I totally want to understand the whole art system.

Axel Wieder 33:04
Yeah. Interesting. You have talked to do you have? Do you seem to have talked to too many curators?

Matthew Dols 33:12
Never, never, I love curators so fascinating. Well be because Egypt, but even if the if I’m right about those three tears, which I may be wrong, and maybe there’s more tears here that I just don’t even know the subtleties of them. But like, as broad stroke, those three tears exist, they all have their merit. I’m not saying any of them’s bad. I mean, even the Jeff Koons Damien Hirst, it has its merit, it has its place. But I’m just wondering, sort of like in your curatorial philosophy, sort of, like, how do you come about saying, like, okay, I do you say, I want to have an exhibition, and I want it to be a new fresh face, or I want to have an exhibition and what the idea is based off of this, and there’s this great artists that already works like this, and I think I could push them and you know, sort of enhance them in this way, like, what’s your curatorial style?

Axel Wieder 34:07
Maybe I want to answer quickly about the question you followed before. There’s a couple of things to say about that. And don’t get me wrong. But you know, there’s kind of like systematic outside description of it. And I’m really sure that’s how it looks. And that’s how it how those works. But this is to me, that it’s kind of maybe a slight sense of cynicism, also maybe a kind of a wish to understand things and to be able to play them or to make them work and that maybe that’s just like my own take. I actually, to me, like working institution, the kind of the institution comes really first and that’s like, I want to do something in that place. And I want to do something with the audiences we have, and with maybe audiences that don’t come yet. I want to do something within a scene. location within the context. And then of course, also, with, I don’t know, exciting artists I enjoy working with and I think work productively in that situation. So for me, that kind of like take on also curatorial choices is much more important. And then there’s maybe a second thing. And that is more reason to maybe I want to try to point to that also, early on when we spoke about politics and so on, the last two years have been changed quite a lot within the way that we are the institutions within the book, there was really kind of a major shift or a kind of political eruption, or a social eruption like that first with me too. And then specifically, more specifically with Black Lives Matter and everything that this cost in terms of rethinking how institutions work, or power dynamics in institutions work, I think changed a lot. And I do think that it really required every institution to rethink how they do their work, and how they relate to the public, how they also internally organize through in order to meet interests or a kind of how they meet a public and how they kind of create a social space that relates somehow to society at large. And that means also, like, I think priorities really changed. And or at least the kind of questioning of previous priorities changed. And I do think that this year, there is this kind of like, the term curator and the professional field, or the kind of the role of the curator is relatively new, it is kind of like this, this, there’s an aspect to it, that it’s this somewhat over emphasize new professional role within the arts that came to prominence in the, I don’t know, mid 90s or so. And then it became this by becoming too prominent and becoming kind of desirable for people, this question of like, how do you want to do this job and very much about thinking about the role and not about what it does, basically. And I would reject that, for me, just as a starting point, that was never really my entry point into the professional, it was always much more about making projects. That’s how it started making projects, and then it became turned into a kind of more sincere interest in institutional structures and institutions as part of the social sphere and the city. Sorry, that was a very long answer. And I don’t want to sound as if I know the answer. It’s really like, I’m also still trying to figure things out. But it’s just I think this is for me, maybe more important, if it was more true as my take on this as a profession.

Matthew Dols 37:51
Oh, yeah. Don’t get me wrong. My position my my, like categorical setup was a little bit cynical. Absolutely. It was also very broad. strokey likes them. It took away all subtlety and all new ones, it was just and it was also from artists perspective of looking at curators that’s not like world perspective, looking at curator so I totally understand how it came off is cynical. I apologize. No worries. That’s, it’s okay. I mean, that’s that’s the nature of a conversation. Sometimes it goes smoothly, sometimes not. But okay. Going back to your current style, your curatorial practices, how you do all this. Do you get proposals, or do you approach people? I sort of just a foundational thing?

Axel Wieder 38:39
Both, I guess, I mean, they get proposals, but usually how successful projects start as approaching somebody. There are partnership proposals, which actually do work. I mean, yeah, sure. If it’s something interesting, that’s great. But I have a huge amount of information of artists work all very orderly stored on my harddrive. That’s one thing, and then I have books, that’s maybe even, that’s not as orderly but even more productive. Maybe this is like how I kind of follow artists work. Of course, if somebody makes a proposal, and it’s interesting, this becomes part of my research.

Matthew Dols 39:16
Okay. The reason why I’m coming to that is because I have this personal position, but I’m not going to share with you because I don’t want to come off as cynical and start the conversation that way. But artists statements, you have written books, you’re a prolific writer, as well as a curator and a director. So like, when it comes to look when you’re looking at artists, how important are not just like statements like broad statements about the their artistic practice, but like things, the nuance things of like, titles, basically, it’s like the text that goes along with the works. how influential is that in your like, decision on whether or not to work with somebody

Axel Wieder 39:58
you mean? descriptors as is kind of like one page description of a practice,

Matthew Dols 40:03
sure. Any any form of Okay, here, I’ll go ahead and just tell you my position. I’m not a big fan of them. But the reason why is because like artists are expected to be able to produce amazing visual art, whatever form that is. And then we’re also somehow now in contemporary days, obliged to also be able to write eloquently about our works. And I think that that’s like asking a bit too much of us sometimes.

Axel Wieder 40:29
Yeah, no, I use is that no I was asking about is basically these these kind of formats of like making an artist statement that fits on an a4 paper, it’s difficult. That doesn’t really work with me, if you ask me personally, I do like to read about artists works. If it’s necessary, like some artists, for some artworks, it’s really necessary to have some information. But that doesn’t need to be necessarily, I don’t know, specifically, well, or theoretically founded. So it’s really about information. Like if I see arburg, there might be stuff that I need to know, like, where it’s made, and with what kind of material and how does it look? How did it react to a kind of context? So I might need to know that. But I don’t need to know too much about that doesn’t need to be phrased in a too sophisticated way. It’s fine. I mean, these statements are often kind of like to become its own cliche. Also, there’s a danger in it. Certainly, indeed. Yeah. I

Matthew Dols 41:26
mean, I can’t tell you how many I because I do portfolio reviews online also. And I am constantly reading like Latin phrases for you know, Freud in quotes, like all kinds of pompous arrogant bullshit, that it’s just like, come on, you’re trying to make it into something that it’s not. And, you know, like, I’m trying to figure out for myself, like, what’s the sort of most effective way to create some texts that accompany some work that isn’t, doesn’t make it’s less interesting, but also doesn’t come off as pompous and arrogant?

Axel Wieder 42:02
Yeah, I mean, factual, being being factual or being informative, be for me really good. We like this actually a sentence that I always find it helpful, even if it’s a bit wisecracking. But it’s not about the quality of the application, it’s about the quality of the project. Even if you write a kind of an application for funding, for example, it’s sometimes like it’s really about, of course, it’s nice if it’s well written, and so on. But it shouldn’t be about perfection of delivery, it’s really about the project, that should be good. There was just often I thought was important when being in juries myself and looking through stuff, just reminding oneself, it’s not about the perfect layout of something, it’s good if it looks nice and sober, but more about the thing that’s kind of like described and depicted in.

Matthew Dols 42:50
It’s really hard, though, because, unfortunately, we still use these vague words like good quality, like those are very nondescript words, and they’re very subjective words, you know, because like what you would call good might not be what I would call good, what you would call quality, I might not call quality. So like, that’s, those are really hard. Because I mean, in most industries, so like, my wife does accounting like so like, it’s, if she does a good job, it’s very obvious, because the numbers added up correctly, she’s done a good job there. If I’ve done a good job in the arts, well, you know, you might love it, but then the next curator might hate it. So there’s no consistency to that nature of like, good and quality, which in some ways, I wish there was. But in some ways, I also appreciate that there’s not

Axel Wieder 43:40
Yeah. Do you think there is no, I mean, I do think this kind of the term quality is problematic, because it’s usually used as a kind of a shield to safeguard the decision, you say, like, yeah, that was really of high quality. And then it means I don’t want to talk further about why we made the decision. I mean, this is certainly this kind of tendency, or you can see that as a motivation. But I do think this is something that some others have a bigger drive or a bigger dynamic and they are more likely to actually trigger a discussion and something that it is maybe a quality and of course, maybe there’s a need to qualify what type of quality we’re talking about. It can’t be just like quality Percy, or if we kind of pretend there is a quality perceived risk that it means I don’t know quality in a way that is maybe too old fashioned too connected to either the ideals of the past, like perfection of proportion or something which is not maybe my definition of quality. But I mean, I have criteria that are important for me and that are kind of like I would

Matthew Dols 44:57
please do tell

Axel Wieder 44:58
now you want to know it If that is kind of complicated, but of course, I do think artworks that make sense for me have the potential of triggering a discussion and making people think, I do think artworks that have have a quality today, they still think about what art can do within all these broader discussions that we have. So there’s a question of, like, reflection of representation, like doesn’t only make sense to, I don’t know, hold the camera to something that’s kind of depicted or described, there also needs to be thinking of why in that way. And into which kind of like, image tradition does this link in reflection of media that is used an idea of maybe a specific role that art and artists can have within the broader political discussion? Yeah, I mean, these are really two of the main points.

Matthew Dols 45:55
What I like your idea that basically, art should start discussions, because like, as you were saying that to me, I’m sitting here thinking like, the last exhibition I went to, it was lovely. The the technical quality was there, like it was, it was good. But it didn’t, but I didn’t need to talk about anything. It was just like, lovely. And the conversation was done. And so I never really spoke about the word going like, Oh, my gosh, it was so good. It made me talk about this, think about this, look into this in a different way. It was just, it was just good. But it didn’t spur anything, any conversation, any discussion? And so like, Yeah, I do think there’s something to that idea that like a good piece of art should encourage some conversation, or else basically, or else nobody’s going to talk about it.

Axel Wieder 46:42
Yeah, exactly. I mean, nobody will talk about it. And it doesn’t do anything. I mean, for me, it’s maybe in now become the really to the thing that’s very hard to describe, I actually I can feel as an adverb is doing something, if I go to an exhibition space, and this adverb that touches me also, this space becomes a kind of space of activity, I can see that it moves something. And that’s really kind of hard to describe. But it’s a really a sensation. Like, it’s like if you go to a football stadium, and there’s a lot of people cheering and chanting, and you have this kind of emotional grabs you if you want it or not. And that’s a bit like that sensation. So it becomes this activity, like something that triggers thinking that becomes almost physical.

Matthew Dols 47:34
What I mean, I’m just thinking through like, is like, there are certain places and experiences that have like sort of triggering effects. Like if I could walk into a cathedral or some really beautiful church was in great frescoes or something, there’s something about that, that will move me in some way, though, I’m not religious, it has something to do with nostalgia, because my my dad’s a priest, and all this stuff, but and then on the flip side of that, there’s also like, you know, your own personal interests, like, you know, if I walk into a nightclub or something like that, or a strip club, like, there’s something about that environment that sort of brings up emotions in you that a lot of times, you know, really great art can do the same thing with that. But then sometimes the institutions is difficult because it avoids the experience because it just puts the object in the place. Like Suddenly, the idea of creating experiences in exhibitions is something like additional senses, smell, sight, sound, touch, all these kinds of things, they can enhance those sort of sense memories that make things more engaging and more appreciative.

Axel Wieder 48:43
Yes, I mean, it also has something to do with understanding, like, if something moves, it’s like, also this feeling of I’m you said, going to judge, but it’s also an understanding of theoretical problem or even like, understanding math getting why something works, like, Ah, yeah. Got it. That feeling is also there. And then, yes, now, even like experiences of like extremely dark, extremely bright spaces, etc. Something to do maybe with a kind of physicality of experience. And again, for me, personally is super important still is like, actually going to see exhibition spaces or like to see art in physical locations. How I notice that it’s important is because I that’s kind of also how my memory works. If I go and see if I remember like important exhibitions. For me, I remember not just being in the space, I also remember getting there. And I remember what I ate afterwards. And I remember maybe how I picked up a handout and how I made a note and put that in a folder and still unable to find it and find that note. So this has something to do also with I don’t know emotions, but also this kind of organization of knowledge and memory within our own brains like how we work how we act. experience things,

Matthew Dols 50:01
I often remember the sound of my walking through a space, like the echoes or the, you know, the feeling of the floor. And and then the how the sound reverberates. So depending on what shoes I’m wearing, I make like louder sounds or softer sounds and so the sounds influence that the the engagement with works for me. Yeah, I do audio stuff now. So like that kind of stuff.

Axel Wieder 50:26
Yeah, that’s true. But it’s like if anecdotal here, but I really like when usually when traveling, I go see a lot of exhibition spaces in a city even like minor ones, like sometimes almost a bit ridiculous, my partner or accompanying friends getting bit annoyed if I’m really kind of up for spending another hour to see a small space on the other side of the city. And everybody knows it’s small, we’ve seen pictures, it’s really tiny. But for me, it’s important to get a sense of like, where the space is, if it’s a space that kind of interests me in that, yeah, it’s kind of entering that physical infrastructure also have a certain kind of discussion or a scene. Like, I don’t know, going to Brussels, and I know there’s this type of artists run small space. Anyway. So it’s kind of important for me to then also experience actually, physically, it has something to do with memory, but also with understanding infrastructure.

Matthew Dols 51:23
Sure, I mean, I also love the the nature of sort of the, the environment in which that place is located, like I have this affinity for this particular nightclub that I went to, not because it was necessarily a great nightclub, but I loved the neighborhood was in so I loved the experience of even going to it because I liked walking down that street and seeing what’s going on in that neighborhood. So it’s, you know, having that entire context around the whole thing, because like, like, I’m trying to think like, not every artwork sort of represents itself well, in every setting. So like certain works would, you know, like, spit into certain neighborhoods, a galleries in certain neighborhoods, like, for instance, like, some of my early works that I did when I was younger, like would look really stupid in a museum, you know, like, they just would look dumb, because they just wouldn’t fit the sterile white wall, they need sort of a more rough, you know, artists run Co Op kind of place for it in, in a little hip neighborhood kind of thing, like the, the certain works sort of fit in certain context better. I’m not saying they can’t, but they do better in certain places. And everything sort of leads up to that, because like, if you’re going to a little small gallery on this outside of town, the walk to get there or the drive to get there, you’re going to be in a certain mood, you’re going to be you know, you’re going to have taken that time and that energy and so they it’s going to affect the experience of seeing or participating in that, that work of art. So like, everything, everything affects everything.

Axel Wieder 53:06
Yeah. But it’s also like, yeah, I think it also makes sense because all that is kind of part of artwork, like an artwork usually happens within a certain context. It’s not just like, objectively, they’re usually connects to its surrounding somehow people live somewhere, they take inspiration from something, it’s important to experience that as well. And actually fun or interesting. It can

Matthew Dols 53:30
be very fun, or it could also be horribly disappointing as well, but you gotta take the good with the bad. I enjoy land. Marvelous. Alright, so finishing this up. I’ve got two last questions I asked everybody. First one would be Could you give me the names of three contemporary artists that your let’s call it paying attention to or that you think we should pay attention to

Axel Wieder 53:57
two artists we’ve worked with in the past with we’ve done shows both Norwegian and maybe it’s interesting in international context to hear a bit about original artists. First, maybe the artists that we showed last year as our festival exhibition, which is a kind of didn’t spoke about that to kind of highlight exhibition format we show at the Coinstar every summer, presenting an original artists in connection to the International Festival from music to kind of like major national exhibition event. Anyways, last year, we showed you one angle, he’s based in Tonga in Northern Norway. His father is Sami. So he works within an indigenous tradition. He kind of works in a very interesting way between architecture and art, creating kind of multi sensory environments. But also, it’s everything is super intellectual, and really interesting like in terms of how we built and think about environment, like as in our built content, And then the second artists Sandra muchinga, as I said, also an original artist based in Oslo at the moment, she lived for many years in Berlin, and she’s nominated as one of the four finalists of the past. And as Natalie in Berlin, one of the most prestigious German prices are up prices in Germany. We did a really amazing exhibition with her, which was about science fiction and visibility and invisibility. And she speaks about that with her background as a black woman working in Norway. So for her, this has also like kind of very direct and personal experience of like being, on the one hand, very visible, but also then often invisible. And then a third artist, maybe just because we’re preparing an exhibition with her Martine Syms, that’s a show that we were supposed to open this January 2021, it had to be postponed to now on November 2021. Martina, since she’s from the US, based in Los Angeles, brooked in Chicago for a long time. And her work is really into TV, and how different TV formats impact our reality. And she has done a series of books that propose a kind of fictional TV series called she mad. And that show showing five laska video installations of this sushi mat series. And it’s interesting because even though my teen is American, and we’re showing it in Norway, there’s so much American TV all around us. So our perception of reality, and the way that reality is told is also now so much shaped by TV. So that’s gonna be very interesting to see. Marvelous. Alright.

Matthew Dols 56:52
And the last question I always ask is some sort of advice. So from your perspective, it could be for next generation of curators, it could be for artists, whatever you want. Try to be specific, don’t do things like keep working, that’s specific, specific advice would be greatly appreciated.

Axel Wieder 57:15
As specific advice. I’m not sure if this is specific enough. But I do think actually being truly interested in what art can do and have some kind of sense of meaning. I know this is also very general, but not giving up on and really kind of trusting that today is still a lot that can be done within art, and it has not been explored and trying to push for that and not to strategize too much, and not to think too much about how to make things work, but actually looking for the quality of the work and ambition and pushing within the work. Alright, well

Matthew Dols 57:53
thank you very much for your time. Thank you. That was fun. Thank you for listening to the entire episode. We would appreciate if you would take a moment and give us a star rating, preferably a five star rating and or some comment in the comment section. These are things that help the algorithm that we all are ruled by, figure out whether we’re worthy of listening to and it will help us in building a wider breadth and larger community around the podcast. So that would be greatly appreciated.

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – http://www.matthewdols.com And the audio for this episode was edited by Jakub Černý. The Wise Fool is supported in part by an EEA grant from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway – https://eeagrants.org in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive Europe. We would also like to thank our partners Hunt Kastner – http://huntkastner.com in Prague, Czech Republic and Kunstsentrene i Norge – https://www.kunstsentrene.no in Norway. Links to EEA grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website https://wisefoolpod.com