Transcript for Episode 138 – Graphic Designer + Multi Media Artist, Tim Jones (Wilmington, NC, USA)

Published January 14, 2021

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/graphic-designer-multi-media-artist-tim-jones-wilmington-nc-usa/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Tim Jones 0:12
Do you have to set it up again? Oh, no. Well, you were asking me if, if I, you know, we were talking about regrets, like, you know, if you’re on the fine art side, maybe there’s a little instability in income that has its own issues and problem, certainly. And you look at the grass on the other side, and you kind of might go like, Oh, you know, what if I was a commercial photographer, what if I was, you know,

Matthew Dols 0:36
wedding photographer? Yeah, yeah.

Tim Jones 0:38
which i, you and i both know, people that try and, you know, bridge the gap between fine art and, you know, fight, make some money off of it. You know, I’ve been, I’ve kind of done both because I did a little bit preliminary, like back in my late 20s 30s, early 30s, where I was, I had my day job. But it was, didn’t tax me creatively. So if anything, it kind of instigated, when I got home, and I was clocked out, I got to do whatever the hell I wanted. And that was sort of a beautiful, a beautiful space to be because I had my had my weekly paycheck. And then I could just have, I could just kind of go all out with the art. And you know, I didn’t have a family or anything like that. So you can be completely self absorbed up in your studio to two or three in the morning, listening to, you know, guided by voices and just, you know, get into your drawings and paintings. And, you know, it’s a wonderful, wonderful time. And I do miss that. But, you know, I had the luxury of not, you know, I wasn’t, I didn’t need to make money off of it. But then, of course, we were all like having art shows back then we were tight little community in a small town. And I think those shows and the excitement of selling and we were selling, you know, because we weren’t charging grant, we weren’t we weren’t charging 2000.

Matthew Dols 2:00
In the beginning, we were charging, you know, you were selling I wasn’t selling fewer. And Wayne and Shawn and everybody else was selling I wasn’t though. Well, unfortunately, I

Tim Jones 2:09
think photography is always gets people always think they can do it. I thought they belittle it, you know, and because it’s a print, it’s not a one off and I you know, I’m sure you’ve wrestled with all the the rationale that people throw out you for why it’s not a no, for my entire they won’t pay money for it, which is ludicrous. Because, you know, just like anything, you know, the quality is, is the quality, you know, and division is division. Yeah, yeah. So, so doing your shows and things like that was great. But you know, I always had my, I never considered myself trying to work, consider the idea of making a living off of selling art because I knew, or I felt like I knew that I would feel that pressure. And, and you would be answering to someone, but sort of like your that’s your, your pure space. And you might have to do conditions of things you didn’t want to do. Because you know, you need to grant you need to make a mortgage or something. Or if you have a family, you know, I gotta you know, get some new shoes. For my kid or something. Speaking of kid, here’s my little baby, let me give my little baby a kiss. Sure. Good night.

Matthew Dols 3:28
Hi, Lauren.

Tim Jones 3:32
And I like my job, you know, because I, you know, I’ve always been working out, it’s like, I’ve never had that, like, man, I need more time to paint and do my art or do more drawings. I would have loved that. But I just kind of took advantage of that in the off time, because I had that time to kind of burn. So it wasn’t, you know, I could do both, you know? Yeah. And that just followed and then ultimately, maybe started doing more and more art shows, and I was developed devoting more time to doing art, and then everything just kind of, you know, just like any scene or any gallery or cluster of friends, or there’s always that little window and it’s a sweet spot, usually like three years in my experience, and then something changes. And with us, the gallery went belly up, and they, you know, they ran off and owed people money and all that good stuff. So and that was time for everyone to get I think basically you stuck around because you were involved in a lot of other things.

Matthew Dols 4:29
I stuck around too long.

Tim Jones 4:30
Yeah. Well, it’s easy. You know, look, you know, I’ve been back here a couple three times. So Lauren, and I decided we just were let’s go to let’s go to New York. I had divorced too, before I met Lauren. And so I was when I met her I was kind of like, let’s, let’s go, I don’t want to do this here anymore. And so obviously going to New York. The last thing I was going to consider is I’m going to be an artist in New York. I’m going to make it up there. It’s like I that’s the

Matthew Dols 4:58
place to do it. If you can Do it anywhere?

Tim Jones 5:00
Well, yes, I and I can see that but with me, I had already slept on someone’s couch several years prior, I had gone out to Oregon with no money. And that didn’t work out so good for me. I was one step away from being homeless. But luckily I had a buddy I had a couch sleep on. So when we were in New York, I was like, I’m not doing I’m getting a job a job like my graphic design job. I’m actually excited about what you could get in New York. So I worked really hard on a really bad book of work. Like literally a three by four black, you know, polyester fold leather zip up. portfolio. Yeah, we all on that zip, or the stock issue for you know, art school kids in the 80s and early 90s, whatever.

Matthew Dols 5:52
Yeah, the three ring binder

Tim Jones 5:54
was through all my stuff in there. And you know, thought it looked nice. I remember when I went to New York, there was a guy I went to art school with, who I didn’t know, he was younger than me. But I, I met a lot of people in art school. And I was really into my illustration and graphic design is what my focus was. And I did well in those. So I guess, people kind of knew me, I was kind of a big deal. It was a small arts, you were a big fish in a small, I was a big fish in a very, very small pond. But it was a great school, but he knew me and he’d moved up in New York, and he was a really good designer. And I called him up and I was like, Hey, I’m up here in New York, you know, any leads you can give me or anything, you know, I’m trying to find some work. And you say, Oh, yeah, come by my office, you know, and yeah, it’d be great to you know, see how you’re doing and stuff and super nice guy, he worked with this other older fellow. Their office was used to be the old apartment for kiss. The guys and kiss used to stay there when they were in New York City. It was like, right by Madison, guard and 23rd Street anyway, is what is called Madison Park. And they looked stuff, and he unzipped it, this is his boss, he has it they looked at and he just doing the classic thing where you’re rifling through like, that’ll never work that I know, what’s, why is this in here and then, and just kind of given, you know, kind of going old school, you know, sort of art art instructor on me, which I needed. And he said, you need it, let me show you what a portfolio looks like. And he handed me something that was about, you know, the size of a small book, literally, that was all printed in uniform and really tight and very, just very, just very slick looking, and very manageable, Polish, and very polished. And that was what but you know, you have to know what the new the new way to promote yourself, as you know. And so that was when I first started learning never had to worry about that before. This is my first lesson in my, my long, you know, venture in New York, he made a lot of decisions and edits and worked a lot of time to really develop this portfolio. So that was my first lesson anyway, got a respectable book together, I threw a lot of my fine art in the book, and made it a book cover, or I took it and made it an illustration for an article, you know, I kind of use some tricks, so I could incorporate my own artwork in there, just to kind of retune the design and I and I lot of logo work and stuff like that, which I love doing is problem saw is like visual problem solving. So I think my brain, I’m kind of a hybrid, I can definitely go into the sort of world where you’re just creating for yourself, and you’re going into your head and you know, kind of just creating what you see. But I also like the problem solving that comes with design and things of that nature. So you know, it’s not too hard to go back and back and forth between the worlds. I feel like I’ve been way too far out of the art world now, which is, you know, it’d be nice to get back into it. Having my life has got a, something’s got to start changing a little bit so I can actually devote more time to it because you, you have to be able to really devote time to it. You have to be in your head, which I’m in my head anyway. But I’m also doing other things while I’m in my head, but to be in your head and sit there and stare at a canvas or a piece of paper. And wait not wait but just kind of let things come. You know, you need time for that. And I’m a little out of practice.

Matthew Dols 9:29
I haven’t actually going to ask you any questions. So them yeah, ask me because I ramble. And ramble, which might be fun because that gives you lots of stuff to edit out. I let people ramberg or mash together. Yeah. Alright, so one of the things that a lot of people wonder when they think of art creative people scorched earth, how did they become creative? So like, how did you even get to it? Family Teacher, what was the experience of sort of brought you to even being creative? Oh,

Tim Jones 9:57
well, it I’m the young is up, you know, to your older brother and sister. And when they were at school and I was, you know, three and four, I mean, I think my mother was just drawing something to, you know, just like a mother would just put up Tinker toy in front of you, or a juice box or stick, you know, whatever. And she just drew a picture of a superman on the back of an envelope. And then also a picture of like a witch. She’s just drawing things out of her head. But she did it in a certain way. And I memorize how she did that. So then I would copier. And that was my first like, I was really interested in how you could draw something on paper and make it be real. So I was kind of off to the races. After that I always drew always, it was just like, very peaceful. I could spend hours just sitting there drawing, I remember I submitted a drawing of my dog when I was in first grade, and it was like, it was much better than the rest of the class. And the teacher put it up, you know, so I got that little bit of you did good kind of thing. And so I was like, sweet man, I think I can do this, you know, but you know, it was first grade. So I’d never even I never even thought of anything. And after that I just, I was always known for someone who did art. And then I would meet other people that did art. And we always just like, kind of bonded, you know, and so I was I was in the I was in the club man from early on. It was great. And you know, and it was always exciting to see people that were really good. When you come across them, you’re like, wow, I remember one time we had a foreign exchange to in high school is from Korea. And he did. I don’t even think he’s he barely spoke English. But he really drew like a shoe. It was 10 times better than anything, I get him. It was unreal. And I was like, Wow, it’s amazing how there are people out there that are just super good at this. And it’s really intimidating, but also really exciting too. Because you know, you want to be around those people and you want to see how they do and you want to just just, I enjoy seeing good art and people that are creative. The way they think it’s so different in the way they handle things is so different. I love that. I love you. How

Matthew Dols 12:31
are you saying they as though you’re not one of them?

Tim Jones 12:34
I guess what I’m saying is where I was kind of going with that is, it’s To me, it’s not a competitive thing. It’s sort of a healthy competition. Like you’re like, when I was in art school, actually, I went to here locally, which had a small art program at the time. And I took it with what I thought was, you know, the best teacher there. I like their work the best. And I took all the classes I could with them. And then kind of ran out of classes. And I had always wanted to go to a proper art school. And so whenever I just basically dropped out of college here and went to England for a little bit. And then I applied to a real art school back in the States when my visa ran out to come back. And I got in and the reason the whole reason I went to that school, East Carolina University School of Art is there was a an arts and literary magazine, which I had worked on a piddly one here. But theirs was really good looking. And it showed, you know, examples of all the different artists and illustrators and fabric designers, things like that. And it was there was two or three pieces that were just stunning in there. And I was like this looks like a real art school like you can really learn. He’d be around some really cool stuff I want to learn I want to know how he did that. I remember I saw like a multimedia painting like a collage painting. It looked like there was probably 20 different materials used on it. It was amazing. I even think there was a soul of a shoe like stuck into the canvas. It was just you know badass and I was like, I want to go there man. You know luckily you know I got in and I wanted to see and I actually met the person who did that painting you know so funny it’s like you just want to get near them and go wow, I want to see your more your work I want to see and then you pick up little nuances and things they did like what’s so striking about it and like you know, look at the look at the way they use a color and look at the line materials Look how bold they are they you can just tell they’re just the way I see it. It looks like a very bold piece and those things influenced you. You know, you pick up on the good parts, you know,

Matthew Dols 14:47
try to Alright, so you moved on after school and as I said before, you know one of the interesting things for me is that you are an incredibly talented artists like specifically In the human form, like you, you can illustrate draw whatever paint the human form really amazingly. And you sort of have made the choice, the conscious choice to not perpetually be a fine artist, but to choose to go into the commercial arts. No knock on that. It’s a it’s a, it’s a smart choice in many ways. But I wonder about like, Do you ever wonder like, was it a smart choice? Was it the right choice for you? Or are you perfectly good with that choice?

Tim Jones 15:29
You know, I think, in a lot of ways, I never felt any. And I don’t know if this is good or not, but sometimes, you follow the path of least resistance. And I’m guilty of that sometimes.

Matthew Dols 15:43
I do not do that. I have no idea. Well, I,

Tim Jones 15:48
I never, I mean, the graphic design came very, like I enjoyed it, I do enjoy it, I still do, I would still do it. If I were to quit my job. Now, I would still love to do design for people as well as art. But it, it came easy for me. And I enjoyed it. I guess that’s why because I enjoyed it. And I like the problem solving. And I like the visual, you know, I had the visual background to kind of add fuel to it. and decision making over the years, you know, obviously, you know, the older you get, I feel like your creative decision making becomes much more streamlined, and you have to sweat less, you kind of you think more than you need to physically do. But anyway. So I think probably that’s why and I think New York kind of sealed the deal. Because honestly, when I went up there, we were getting low on funds, and I was terrified of, you know, not having rent, I wasn’t that close ship. But I didn’t, I wouldn’t there was no income, I had to go away, I had a I had a part time job, there was only going to be for a couple of weeks. It’s like a temp job designing. And I had to go back home at the time was my dad had gotten sick, and went for like three weeks, you know, he had to go through some chemo and things like that, and it just happened. And when I came back, I didn’t have that job anymore. And I was like, really pretty terrified. I talked to people, they’re like, Oh, this, you know, when you do temp work, you know, it’s kind of, you know, you might have four months, you might have a year and a half, and then you might be off for four or five months, you know, it’s okay. And I was like, I don’t like that. I was really kind of scrounging and trying to find something, I got a call back from a place that I had done some design work. And the funny thing was, they did financial, like high finance, they did design and advertising. And most of all their clients were like high finance, like global finance, which just even hearing those words, you can imagine how completely opposite of brain. That is. The irony of it is and I’m hoping I’m using the word irony correctly, but is that world at the time, I don’t know what they’re like now, there’s been a lot this happened since then this is about 2006 they really kind of a sophisticated audience, they you know, you’re not showing them gold coins and money trees and you know, things. It’s very imagine a painting the paintings in their walk in here in the foyer of their buildings and things like that. It’s like it’s very sort of abstract and well, so the aesthetic, I felt like was kind of in that realm. And also the people I worked for were really cool, really nice, really funny. An English fellow who lived in Africa and Italy, and he plays in a band, his wife was a world music singer, he was my boss. And I worked with another guy who cost like a sailor, and would go sneak off and have a drink at lunchtime and come back and, and but him and I got along really good, I guess. Because we both like cussing and drinking. So those are my bosses and they love they love the work that I did. You know, they saw my book. And the funny thing was, the reason I got that job was because of some artwork that I had done. That was that was my fine art stuff in my book, you know, I told you about the, you know, putting it in a book cover here and, you know, Article layout design here. My boss, that’s what he saw. He loves art, and it was my toe and you know, really so it worked out well. Anyway, I got they called me back and I got on the air in the money was really good. I’d never seen money like that. And granted, you know, it takes you once you realize New York is you know, it’s a different pay scale there. But still, I was like, I’ve never had money before. And so that was a I’m not gonna lie that was very tantalizing. So I stuck with it.

Matthew Dols 19:56
What I mean when it comes to Okay, so like keep in mind I come from the fine arts by Background and especially in photography. So that’s also a big sort of kicker on this. One is that oftentimes photographers, if they’re fine arts photographers, and they do commercial work, they’re seen as sort of selling out kind of thing. But that’s not so much so true in the, in the graphic arts and also the painting. I know a lot of artists, whether the sculptors or painters or print makers who do graphic arts, you know, commercial arts, for it to make money to be able to afford to do what they have want to do.

Tim Jones 20:28
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you know, you look at any of the design manuals and looked at photography, and they’ve got all the categories. You know, they have editorial, they’ve got obviously the very, you know, the very expensive studio stuff, but even, you know, I, I worked with a couple photographers up there I was, if I comped up an idea, and the client bought off on it, I would be the art director of that project. And we would source a photographer or whatever. And I did this a couple times. I didn’t do it a lot. Worked with this really amazing photographer. He did a lot a studio still life things. And he was recreating the stuff that I had comped up in Photoshop. And his work. I remember he did this. He had, he had several books, and I can’t think of his name. He’s a French fellow. But he’s, he’s got sort of a Russian sounding name. Anyway, he did the sort of shoes made out of pieces of these lilies and, you know, exotic flowers, and he would make these women’s shoes out of them. And he would construct them, he would shoot them, and then construct them in Photoshop, but they were just made they look like fairy like grand very shoes, they were pretty phenomenal. That was one little thing he did. Of course, he did, you know, 500 other things since he was a working photographer. But the his skill was phenomenal. And, and his work was really phenomenal. But he got some money to do that project, which keeps everything going in his studio. And it was just fun to work with, for fun to work with people like that. I did it a couple times. And the other a pretty well rounded, I would say, you know, a little this little of that, then I’ve always got my fine art stuff. And I think maybe that’s probably maybe that’s something there. We’re all artists, you know, but I feel like that everybody, like my even my boss, he was a musician. You know, it’s like, this is my day job. And I care about and I take care and pride in what I do. And he does, you know, he did and he does. by eight o’clock tonight, I’ve got my friends coming over, or I’ve got a gig in Harlem, and we’re playing and I’m so excited about that, too. You know, I love I don’t think anyone ever just, you know, in the creative world just does that. And maybe, you know, it’s not like, bagging groceries, and I come home and I’m like, No, I’m gonna keep bagging groceries. I’m gonna, I’m gonna bag them on my own time. It’s like, nothing wrong with bagging groceries. But I know, it’s not the most inspiring career. Okay, wait, you

Matthew Dols 23:01
mentioned that you are an art director and you’re doing all these other things. And I’ve sort of use different terminology to describe what you do you know, graphic arts, commercial arts, things? Like how do you define what you do? You will definitely a what?

Tim Jones 23:16
Well, it’s in the titles are all a little wonky? Because I mean, first and foremost, I am a graphic designer slash artists from concept to finished, produce, you know, finished stuff. But in the industry I’m in, you could be a creative director, and have people like me who are designers, and they make things they actually the monkeys that do the work. And you’re the sort of person that says no, do the blue one. Yeah, I had this idea. I see fish and, and they’re, you know,

Matthew Dols 23:55
wanting in this, you do that to people you work with? No, no,

Tim Jones 23:58
see, I don’t do that. And I’ve you know, it, I haven’t been in a situation where I’m that guy. But at the same time, so I kind of am. in a weird way, I’m kind of crave director of myself. It’s confusing. At the end of the day, my job is to think about did I write sometimes I it’s like, I think ideas, I work with writers I work with my boss, we think of ideas. I in my current job now what I do is I’m the person who brings it to life and visualizes that, that’s what my job is. But I also might come up with the idea or I might take someone else’s idea and go oh, and you know, I think what would work here is we’re going to do this and and I take it and I kind of let it stew and I kind of create from that. So and you know it’s exciting and I mean, and honestly I’ve kind of gotten to the point now where it’s like hope this doesn’t come to fruition but I’ll just use this as an example was like, you know, we could get an account with a A company that makes toilet brushes. And I would be genuinely excited to like try and make something interesting from that. It’s like, you know, my, my daughter the other day, my nine year old, it’s like, would you do to this morning and come home for lunch or ride my bike home? And what did you do today? And I was like, Was it fun? I was like, Oh, we did this this. Oh, wow, that sounds boring. And I was like, Well, you know, it does sound boring, but it’s my job to make it interesting or my job is horrible. But you know, it’s not horrible job, it’s a great job. And actually, I have to figure out a way to make it good and interesting for me, and some are better than others. Don’t get me wrong, but like, that’s, that’s kind of the deal. And if it’s really horrible, I just try to get it done as efficiently and quickly as possible, and just get the hell out of the way, like, wrap the burger up and get the hell out, you know, you know, right behind that something completely new is behind that. And that’s, that’s cool, too. That’s a, you know, a new a new canvas, you know, if you were,

Matthew Dols 26:03
it sounds, to me, like part of the thing that sort of entices you to doing this is actually the sort of the collaboration and the process of sort of working with other people to make the ideas bigger and better and broader, whatever, then maybe if you did it just by yourself might not have been as

Tim Jones 26:20
well, I tell you what, it’s just like anything. Yes, it is, it is better to work with people that can make the work better, and you work alongside of them. But sometimes,

Matthew Dols 26:35
sometimes they get in the way of it,

Tim Jones 26:36
sometimes they completely get in the way, and it’s bad ideas. And and you’re like, but that’s okay, too. I mean, ultimately, you go back in your head, and you sit at your desk, and you sketch or research or fine. Or on your bike ride home, you’re, you know, you’re thinking or you’re laying in bed, right free to go to sleep, you know, it’s like you, you watch something, you see something, you hear something, and then it you know, kind of fuels the thing. So I think more the thing that I enjoy the most is that discovering what’s going to be the smart solution, the good looking the cool solution, what’s going to be the not just fluffy and designed for design sake, working with smart people up in New York, that were senior, and they really knew their shit. They really helped me kind of craft. It’s kind of like when you go to art school? Oh, well, you can draw an app that looks like an apple, you know, big fucking deal. I need you to work harder. What what are you really doing here? And that first time you get that taste? You’re like, Oh, I see I get it. I

Matthew Dols 27:40
see what you mean? Well, one of the things that I always wonder about with like designing for stuff, because I’ve done a little bit of that over the course of my career too, is that what you have to often like make three, let’s say potential pitches to somebody, you know, one that you love, one that you think they’ll love, and then one that’s some sort of hybrid between them. And, And that, to me was always the most painful, because I would generally fall in love with one design and be like, this is the shit. This is the perfect design. And if they choose any of the others, I’m going to be crushed. And they always choose one of the others. Well,

Tim Jones 28:12
I tell you what, and you’re exactly right. And I say this to myself, and I say this to the folks I worked with two, I go, don’t put it in front of them. Unless you’re okay with it. That first time. The first time is the purest time you get to show anyone anything. spend all of your creative energy and then some there. And just really power through, don’t show them sketches, show him something that’s further along, but show him three ideas. But they don’t have to be my favorite, middle favorite and the crappy one that I think you know, they want me to do. And in most cases, you’re okay with the three of them. You have a favorite? Maybe a strong second, the third one, you know, maybe that when you could call your straw man, like, I’m just gonna put that in there. They can mix that one. But I’m I like it, though, is not bad. I won’t because I don’t because I did bad over here. And they’re not seeing that, you know, no one’s seen that. That’s

Matthew Dols 29:10
how many how many, like sketches and stuff do you make up before to get to the three that you do give to a client? You know, it

Tim Jones 29:17
depends depends on if you’re talking about a whole brand campaign, a whole brand new look and feel for someone involving a whole new logo that you’ve created. If that’s the case, you’ve usually already started thinking about it by the time you start doing the with the brand, look at them with the attitude is you and the writer your writers come up with a tagline or just an idea or concept that is sort of their tone. And then you forget I forget what the question was is you know, you’re you’re basically you’re kind of working on how many

Matthew Dols 29:49
how many sketches Do you need, how many like tests and sketches and tries to have to do to come up with three really strong ones to even put in front of a client?

Tim Jones 29:57
I don’t know. I guess I guess that’s difficult to answer because you New with me typically, my first idea I have right in the creator meeting, the first idea, like half the time, maybe a third of the time, that’s the one we end up going. And wow, if it’s a pure thought, and I’m just I don’t know, I’m kind of in that place where I’m very receptive to what I’m just being fed. And then I kind of go, I think at this, but the other times, I also have an idea, but I’ll just, that’s gonna be the one and I start working. I’m like, oh, wait a minute, this is this is a better way to do it. And then somebody will give some input, and I’ll go, Well, that’s smarter, that’s actually better. And then I look at that very first thing I put down, and it might not even get shown, you know, so it depends. Really, it’s like, sometimes it’s very, I guess, long and short. of it is it’s a very organic process. And so you don’t it’s definitely not math. The one thing mathy about it, I would say is, you know, you always typically, like you said, 40, you give them three, you know that that’s usually standard. Five to many,

Matthew Dols 31:02
I think I actually learned that from you, too, is lazy. If you’re very famous, you can do one yeah. This is the design I give you Yeah,

Tim Jones 31:14
that’s actually typically you only do one, when it’s like a freebie for some friend, or something, or a nonprofit or nonprofit or something. It’s like here, for those are fun. Because then you really just get even you have to concern yourself. You’re like, what’s my, what’s my idea here? You know, and I’m not and they’re not paying me for it. But at the same time, I don’t have. Let me just see what I come up with. I’m just gonna give them this and safe. But then sometimes they’ll be like, Oh, can you change the color green? You know?

Matthew Dols 31:45
Do you feel the need still to make your fine arts also? Or is because one thing I always wonder about, like people that go into the commercial arts because it is, you’re still being creative, you still are doing all the things that you were taught and you learned in school and, and the things you desire, which is, you know, be creative, make things all that kinds of? It’s like, Is that enough of a sort of scratching that creative itch? You know, in a way,

Tim Jones 32:07
I guess? Some days? Yes. And not in the pure sense of art for art’s sake. But I would say you’re using those muscles. So you’re keeping loose. But sometimes, you know, you’re not. You’re not straying quite like you would if you’re doing personal work, because the funny thing is, is because I think but personal work, you know? Well, I tell you what I’m put this way with, with the graphic design communication artist in general, your client is the is the patron, you know, and, and they’re trying to speak to an audience. And so the audience is kind of patrons as well. So you’re solving for them. And when you’re creating word purely for yourself, you’re you’re kind of solving for yourself, which is very, that’s a whole, you know, that’s that’s a very different thing. I think that’s, I know, with me, I don’t know how it is some people, I think they’ve got a whole different process, I think with me, because I would kind of create things from inside that I saw in my mind, or you know what I mean? It wasn’t they weren’t tactel yet, they weren’t things that I can observe or, you know, I couldn’t photograph them. I couldn’t, it was, it was more like just pulling something from inside out. And not to say that that’s not what other artists either but I am speaking for me, I guess,

Matthew Dols 33:34
as an entire conversation is just about you.

Tim Jones 33:37
Well, yeah, yeah. You know, it’s really challenging, but also really good. It’s a different kind of work. I don’t know. Yeah, it’s just a different so you know, you’re your client sounds horrible. You’re not your client. But

Matthew Dols 33:52
it’s the way we phrase it, your, your answer your, your, your,

Tim Jones 33:55
you know, you’re solving your own sort of art, creative conundrums, because you want to communicate them you want to, like, you know, you want to represent something that you’re see or that you’re thinking and put it out there. And you want people to see it.

Matthew Dols 34:12
What is it today? I mean, quite honestly, like your graphic design work, probably more people have seen your graphic design work than ever will see my artwork. Because, you know, that kind of stuff is sort of inherent in people’s lives. And they don’t even realize it’s there.

Tim Jones 34:26
Yeah, exactly. And you see it and you’re like, you know, you might respond to it. Oh, that’s, that’s really cool. Well, I remember when, when one of the first things I didn’t wait was probably the first year I was working with that group. We would take on little side projects through our group as well. We didn’t always just do.

Matthew Dols 34:47
Sorry, that group.

Tim Jones 34:49
When I worked for my company in New York, okay, small group. We were a small group that did the financial stuff, right? Well, we also because folks, I worked with You know, they’d worked in the industry and they knew people from like all over the world, you know, I everywhere and we would get people friends from Italy or something and then they’d bring in a client. And when we did this client, we had a client, he brought in a friend of ours, Matthew ealy coffee, the Italian coffee espresso company very designed, like, their, their logo was done by some famous Italian designer. And he did it with a brush pen, he did one you know, or something like that. Their espresso Cup was designed by an Italian sculptor. And it had a perfect it looked like a certs, little white certs ring for the little, the little where your fingers held the tighten. Yeah, I love you know, the espresso cup. And it was just so your fingers would just touch like that, like that was thought about. So very high in like high or I should say, elegant, elegant, very appreciative of the arts, they were doing to do this launch event in Manhattan, to just kind of drum up the name and interest in LA coffee. And they were gonna start it in New York City did this project. So I worked on that for weeks and weeks, months. And there was another designer who was working on it. But then I really got into it. And I was doing illustration work. And these are all concepts. And then I was doing, you know, some other kind of photo collage stuff. I just had a blast with it. And my bosses just like, go, go, go go. We did so much good work for them. Anyway, they ended up going with one concept that they really love, which used those cups on a white background is white cup and a white background. And then we did all these things with it. And like literally, I would just sit there just think of ideas within I talked to my boss and we’d like come up, you know, but he just made me go and like they produce like all these a lot of these posters for the event of the creative that we did with the cups, you know, turn into a butterfly, we stack them on top of each other and have bamboo growing up the side of it, we would put it in a field of grass with like all these other cups and caterpillars were crawling into it. Like I just like kind of went like my boss would throw a word like What about a caterpillar? What about and I would envision what that would look like. I put the two cups upside down like a cracked egg and a little chick comes out of it. And like we were just doing all this like, just bonkers. Not not bonkers, but just kind of surreal, fun stuff. And they they went with all of it. So we’re in this four story mall, you know, Time Warner mall. They’re in the Time Warner building right there. Central Park in the corner. And a big installation in there. We had these super long three story long posters. And I just was like, Well, how am I going to do a long skinny poster because we were talking about hanging from the railings these things. I was like, What if you were to just drop a cup in it and have it spin round and round? And I was thinking, well, what if there’s a guy just doing somersaults on the side of the cup. So there’s like 10 cups spinning around and around on a poster with a guy in a somersault pose. So he looks like he’s flipping and falling down. And they’re like, good. We’ll do that. That sounds good. That’s probably 20 10,000 $15,000 poster. Just like he’s banging that stuff out. We need something for the elevator standard. It’s like, Alright, we got this cup theme. What if we just stack all the cups up? Like right when you come out of the elevator, but they’ll be like, you know, three feet wide these cups and have words on the side of them. And they’re like, okay, so they did that they didn’t fabricate and they did the cups. So there’s a series of other things. So smart installations there is really cool. The painter Rosenquist had done a series of canisters for them. And he was there and he like autographed them you know, so I got one of his cans autographed somewhere. So that was like, you know, a job. I did like, six months after I was there. And I was like, that was cool, man.

Matthew Dols 39:02
Those are very rare that never did it again.

Tim Jones 39:06
Like never never did anything like that again. But it was cool. You know, that was fine. I, I kind of felt like that was probably how back in the day or even you know, of course now, like the whole kind of Rockstar graphic design world. But you know, I’m not in that world. I’m in the bread and butter. Especially now out of being out of New York. You know, it’s it’s very much, but I like it though. But that was fun. That was really cool.

Matthew Dols 39:32
Well, I mean, that’s another thing. So they a lot of people get into the creative industries because they like the the people and they like the community and the tribe and all that kind of stuff. And a lot of us want to be famous and we want to be known and all this. But a lot of graphic designers and commercial artists are in it just because they want to be able to use their creative talents to be able to make a living so basically, they want to like their job.

Tim Jones 39:58
Oh and I you know It’s funny you say that because the whole reason I even do, I’d like I do, like, you know, I’m lucky man, you know, I really liked my job. And I realized that’s, that’s rare. You know, it really is. And that’s, that’s a that’s a wonderful thing. You know, you don’t like every day. But you know, I remember being really frustrated doing paintings, you know, and drawings, like, I don’t know, should I want to do today? Dammit, you know, I gotta I need to start something new because I’m in a rut, you know? But yeah, no, I really, I really do. And yeah, the one especially in New York, like the graphic design and advertising world and like New York and stuff, the little bits I was in and around was also really horrible. Like, like, the bigger the account the more money just the more horrible the people were and the end users, the clients, what not? Well, not I mean, no, no, even in the office. So you’ve got to count people, you got people that project managers who they you know how it is that?

Matthew Dols 41:02
It’s like, they’re not, I don’t know how well i’ll tell you,

Tim Jones 41:05
I’ll tell you how. They’re not creative. They are in a creative world. So it’s a bit like

Matthew Dols 41:12
bean counters.

Tim Jones 41:14
Well, not account accountant like that, more like handling an account, like a project manager, I guess, maybe that’s more, that’s better term for, for us, but they can be horrible. And like, you know, just just like any office, you’ve got just people just, you know, making it harder to do that. And, you know, we just want to make good stuff. And you know, we don’t want to deal with all that bullshit. And but you know, when money is involved you You do have to deal with the bullshit sometimes. But, yeah, enjoying the work is the thing. I know, the people that I worked with the ones that I was around every day for 10 years. And there, I’m still speak to regularly even though I’ve been gone from New York for a while, is they love the work. They did. They did and they hated bullshit. And they didn’t want to deal with it. They were very honest, very talented. They are. And that rubbed off on me and I, they understood, sometimes you’re working on stuff that’s not as fun or not as good or exciting, I should say. But they always, here’s, here’s my take on it. You know, here’s what I’m going to do with I’m going to give you the best I got, you know, and so I think that kind of that sort of work method. Just way of working was instilled in me from from those guys.

Matthew Dols 42:28
Okay, wait, you said something about like being in a rut in painting? I’m, as an artist, if I’m in a rut, okay, fine. I’m in a rut. But as a commercial artist, if you’re in a rut,

Tim Jones 42:38
you still have a deadline? Oh, well, you usually here’s the good thing is because you also have to consider that you’re typically not working on a project. Usually, unless you only have one client, then you very much will get in a rut. There have been times when we had a main client where you’re feel like you’re having to remake the wheel again, time and time and time it’s gonna be a better wheel and a different wheel. Why aren’t you making it? You know? Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s hard. That is hard. But typically, you’re not in it long enough to get into the rut. It does happen, and you still gotta you got to work through it.

Matthew Dols 43:17
Okay, well give me a sense of it. So like, you’re not necessarily maybe like your daily rituals. But like, over the course of a week, let’s say like, how many jobs do you complete? In a week? Or, or a day? You know, so like, you know, are you working on like, multiple different jobs in order to stay fresh on a job? Or do you like focus on one job for 10 days in a row? And then, of course, like, how long a deadline do you have for a lot of these things?

Tim Jones 43:42
Well, it all depends, because we might do something that’s a smaller client, and they just need something like a new logo or whatever. And maybe we just don’t have a lot of time that we can give to that. Because the budget is lowered budget, you know, like a, like a, whatever. And so those you’re not gonna spend as much time on, you can do just as good work, but you’re not gonna be able to have the luxury of spending weeks on it. Then you have some jobs. And if you’re talking about, you’re talking about describing what a rut might be, like, we had a client for a senior living, they do see you in your living communities, which is like the big

Matthew Dols 44:21
retirement it’s

Tim Jones 44:22
well, that’s, that’s the that’s the old word, now senior living community, and they’re not retirement homes. Still. It feels like retirement home to me, but it doesn’t look like it and they are way more expensive. Oh, god, yes, I know, incredibly more expensive. My parents are getting old. I know where they’re looking into, but, but very nice, you know, and those one 2% of the population are really gonna have a lovely time there and kudos to them. Anyway, so you’re and they’re they’re great client and so we will produce a logo and a look and feel and a brochure for that community. And then we’ll get another community. And we’ll do that as well. Well, one time I got four or five of those in a row, and I’m talking, here’s a blank piece of paper, it is called acorn farms. That’s not the real name was good.

Matthew Dols 45:16
No,

Tim Jones 45:18
we need, we need a logo, and a look and feel. And then we’ll need a brochure piece and then which is gonna be chock full of photography. We haven’t built a place yet. So you got to go with stock plan, which I will say stock photography has made huge advancements in how they are showing Senior Living nowadays, versus probably 510 years ago.

Matthew Dols 45:42
Well, stock photography, that’s a whole industry that on the one hand, like on your side of it as a graphic designer, amazing, like the resources and the prices of them are incredible. For your side, me as a photographer stock photography, the the it’s the bottom of the barrel these days. I mean, they pay nothing. It’s it’s nowhere near as lucrative industry as it once was for photographers.

Tim Jones 46:06
Well you would know about Yeah, exactly. Like how that industry would how it’s changed what it’s gone to.

Matthew Dols 46:12
I worked for a stock photography agency. Did you really we used to do like deals of like $25,000 for the rights to an image and yeah, worldwide ad campaigns or books, you know, for $10,000?

Tim Jones 46:25
Yeah, if you’re if you’re if you’re in a big campaign, yeah, pays well, if it’s, I always feel bad for the people that go, okay. teenager teenager holding an apple teenager throwing an apple, teenage two teenagers, both holding the apple one takes a bite of the I don’t know

Matthew Dols 46:40
how they do. I know a guy who did that for a living and made millions

Tim Jones 46:45
they have there has to be something in there. Because the funny thing is, is you’re going through this stuff you’re like, you know, somebody is using this and I know there’s an article about teenagers who don’t eat enough apples, or teenagers that fight while grabbing the last apple or

Matthew Dols 46:59
I literally assisted him one day because I wanted to learn the trick of like, how does he do this? Like the dude was making millions? Yeah. And I showed up one day and he and I have to assist him. He had a bodybuilder guy like with big biceps there and, and he put the guy with the big biceps in front of a colored background. And then he put an apple on the the bicep. Yeah, took the picture against green background, she changed the color background to blue took it again, changes color background red took it again. And then he changed the apple out to glass of milk and they change and they change all the background colors again, like him. And he just like did it like a machine? He’s just like, what do people want? That’s what I’ll take a picture.

Tim Jones 47:38
It’s like, did they get it like a little setlist? Yeah, sure. I’m sure they did. I don’t know how they keep it. You know, we need muscle guy with fruit. And we need multiple. Let’s get mad on that. You

Matthew Dols 47:48
know, they really do actually the the stock photography agencies, the old ones, I mean, I don’t know what they do these days. Yeah, but they used to actually get like, they what they would do is when people give in requests for images, they would keep a catalogue of all the different requests and sort of say they would be like, okay, there’s a lot of requests for these images that we don’t have, go make some of these. And they would actually give it out to their photographers and say, Go produce these because we have need for these.

Tim Jones 48:13
Yeah, I tell you, man, I I’ve got to the photoshoots are a whole can of worms to bring out and you love it. Because it’s original photography, you’re working with a photographer. And a lot of times a lot of stuff I work on now it might be more lifestyle things. So you’ve got you know, you’ve got talent, or you know, actors called talent, and all these scenarios, and here they are at the beach, and here they are walking through the woods, and here they are eating table. And it’s great, but it’s a lot of work. There’s 500 images of them eating at the table, you edit it down, you know, and because I’m not a photographer, and I’m not that client, it that is hard for me to narrow it down to that. I mean, I’ll pick I’ll use my aesthetic, I’ll use what I feel like my tools are to like, get it get what I think is, but inevitably it’s like oh, no, no, no, we have to have the so and so. Oh, no, we can’t use those anymore because they don’t have that kitchen anymore. You know, there’s always that kind of stuff going on. So the funny thing is, is I found myself now going well I can just go to stock report and there’s an I can find something beautiful and it might be the $500 image which is very expensive for most client that’s a lot of money. But you’re getting you know you’re getting ready piece of photo boom, no art directors on set and they have talent and people you know, it’s like boom, done and immediate, like no awaiting lighting is already great. Everything’s Yeah, and immediately so it’s like Bang, bang, bang, but I kind of I’ve gotten to the point now unless it’s something like a purely creative concept. It’s not, you know, people walking through the woods or people on the beach or kids playing or something. If it’s like, a whole new thing, of course, you have to construct that you’re gonna figure that out. And a lot of times I can handle it. Let’s talk photography for the clients that we have, you know, that

Matthew Dols 50:12
saddens me greatly, but that’s fine. Well, and I think I think it has to do with Oh, I

Tim Jones 50:19
don’t know. I don’t know, I’m sure there’s a lot of reasons. I think probably money. Of course,

Matthew Dols 50:23
I mean, original photography for any sort of advertising or commercial reasons is expensive. No doubt.

Tim Jones 50:32
Developing like a, you know, a logo for you know, just happens to be one of the things I’m working on now, we, we work on a bunch of things, but this is just in my, in my head right now, taking something that’s maybe not very interesting sounding and making it like a visual explore a graphic, sort of exploratory problem solving, you know, something exciting to work on. I remember, there was one of these communities, and they, they wanted a horse theme because it’s right near these stables and famous stables and lots of equestrian, sort of, you know, aficionados and whatnot. So I started doing some sketches and I got, I had some ideas. I typically will sketch just a little bit, but I always had to build it on the computer I’ve gotten so you It’s my second. It’s like my third hand.

Matthew Dols 51:24
Okay, wait, stupid technical thing. What programs do you use?

Tim Jones 51:28
Well, when I’m doing most times anything graphic based, is illustrator, Adobe Illustrator. So I’ve been doing that for about, you know, 20 years so I’ve gotten that that’s been a fun program to work with because it’s so precise and and shape making and things like that. That’s been the most useful to me well for that, and you know, Photoshop for general image imaging, things of that nature. But most time for comps and things like that, where you comp up an idea Usually, the photo or the images, little adjustment here and there, and it’s fine. Yeah, no, like early manipulated stuff in Photoshop. But yeah, I would say illustrator for graphics and art, and InDesign, just for text layouts, things like that. But mostly all illustrator now honestly, I’ve been getting away with pretty much doing all that and I like it.

Matthew Dols 52:21
And that Okay, so Boyd now has you and or your the company you work for been doing things like three dimensional stuff as well maybe even like 3d printed things like so are you using any of these sort of contemporary technologies? No,

Tim Jones 52:36
we’re very, we’re very kind of old school with all that stuff. But we do, what we do do is animation and video storyboards will help people create that the animation. Now I used to do a lot of that when I was in New York, like the last, I don’t know, a couple, four or five years, but a client, they they wanted an idea for basically a piece you could look at, they didn’t have to have the sound on. And it’s for advertising to these not traders on the floor, but people that are on their computers they’re doing, you know, they’re not listening to the sound. Sure. And so we did this text animation idea. And I got what I got the idea to like, do sort of concrete animation of an of a phrase where, you know, it’s kind of a classic thing they call I think they call it concrete poetry, you know, where the words will sort of illustrate what it’s saying, right. So I storyboarded that out. And I kind of got into this real feverish. And the next frame is this. And next frame is this and I’m doing it all in Illustrator just kind of mapping it out. And then we would get an animation house to create it. And it was really cool. And then they loved it. So we ended up doing like 10 of those. And then the more we did the next slide, the next year is just got better. And we did more. And then they started getting we got a more high end animation company. And so I would storyboard them, and then they would really take it to the next level. So that was super cool. Like, just kind of building these little mini animated features, like a minute long, that would tell sort of whatever story you need to tell. And so that that was really cool. I brought that down here with me that way of doing those sorts of pieces. So we’ve we’ve dabbled a little bit in that, you know, well, I mean,

Matthew Dols 54:27
the reason why I ask is because like a lot of stuff and yeah, but like a lot of students and a lot of young designers and stuff. They get enamored with like technologies and they end in school, it’s always pushed like, Oh, you need to learn the newest thing, the best that you’re all this. But like, it sounds to me like really the thing like if you want it to be generally successful commercial artists is to basically find a skill set that you enjoy doing that you do well and be a master of that one thing or just one thing and maybe surrounding things.

Tim Jones 54:59
Oh Yeah, no, I would totally agree with that. I think, you know, whether you’re a technical sort of savant is something that’s, that’s, you know, you’re going to do fine if you if you’re, if you’re someone who, there are a lot of people that know how to do very high quality animation, and things like that. But on the opposite end of that, you, you know, you could almost say you need to understand concepts and ideas, but you have to be able to tell me what they are, I’m sorry, you have to be able to show me what they are, in some method or form, we can get someone to do this. But you have to be able to be proficient enough to show me the idea, whatever that might be storyboard it, whatever, sketch it well, but it can’t be. So So I guess, I guess, it’s kind of like if you’re a sculptor, either have to weld or you have to work with wood, or work with particles, oh, you know, whatever a sculptor might do. And the material, you do have to kind of have some kind of skill in one of those mediums. You might not be able to do them all. So it’s like with me, I couldn’t animate. I don’t need to know how to animate because there are people that animate, but I love working with them and like and having ideas. And then they go, Oh, what if we did this way?

Matthew Dols 56:18
Well, that’s what I’m sort of getting to is like, a lot of people these days. Okay, so like I was teaching graphic design. And we often said that we were teaching generalists, like so we were people who came out of our school had a general understanding of Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign, and maybe a couple of maybe a 3d program and stuff like this. But they weren’t really specialized in any one great thing and like a masterful at that one thing. But it’s, so that’s why I’m sort of asking is like, are you between you and the people? You’ve worked with? Our graphic designers? These are sorry, commercial artists these days? Are they masters of one thing? And then sort of? Or are they all generalists? So they basically, are we teaching them the right way? Should should they be generalist? Or should they be? Well, I

Tim Jones 57:06
tell you what, all those people that you just described are in that field. Typically, someone who can dabble a little bit in some of these programs, or they understand a little bit, but they’re more idea, people. And if they’re really good at ideas, and they can steer people who know how to weld or know how to use Photoshop, or know how to animate and push them and go, No, this is what Okay, yeah, that’s it, then there’s a job for them. But they actually didn’t make anything. They had the they were, they were the visionary. So but then you’ve got the technical school kind of slant, where someone has to know how to do the the timing, and the editing to get this into 30 seconds for this, for this animation piece in sync with the voiceover and the music and the you know, it’s like, there’s real technical craft here. So it’s like, they’re, they’re all you know, it’s, you know, it’s kind of like this man, it’s like, it’s like, you know, the theater or something, you got the director, you’ve got the actors, and you’ve got the stage props and the people. It’s like, there’s a job for all of them in there, you know, so, are you a director? Are you a stagehand? You need them? All right?

Matthew Dols 58:25
Well, like well, for instance, like, I can think about the right journalist, right now, a lot of journalists who went into journalism school, they came out as really eloquent writers, they’re now being asked to also go out on assignment and take photos and make videos along with their own photo assignments, or with their writing assignments. So it’s, it’s this kind of, like, idea that’s very contemporary, that basically, like if you’re creative, in one way, yeah, you sort of have to, like, be able to do a lot of things.

Tim Jones 58:54
You know, I tell you, it’s, I think it’s good that you guys sent, you sent people out of your school with a working knowledge of some of those things you’re going to see because you do have to, like, understand what a timeline is in animation, and film and video and, and I know what that looks like. So I’m familiar with it. I’m not on Mars when I look at that, and it’s so yeah, it’s absolutely good. But I think the bigger thing is, for me or for an artist, is being able to receive and digest and spit out an idea that is that that’s your creative output. Now, if you can also go Oh, and I know what this will look like, illustrated, or I know what this will sound like I make it I think the other way, just being technical, having technical savvy, you’re a crafts person in a lot of ways, which is, it’s in its own art form, in a way, you know, or pretty much is its own art

Matthew Dols 59:52
form. What and that’s sort of something I’m thinking about, which is like, What if you were looking at another graphic designer, let’s say Their work and all this, would you be admiring the craftsmanship? Or the idea more? Like, what’s the thing that that makes you go other talented?

Tim Jones 1:00:10
You know, I think the the craft is the icing. And the idea and the concept is the cake. And it’s like, you know, you’re like, I really love icing.

Matthew Dols 1:00:23
I’m not sure which is better. Which one in that metaphor?

Tim Jones 1:00:26
Well, that’s fair. I saw this video for it was kind of like a video case study for a company out of London. And they had, they had rebranded the London Symphony, and they did everything from logo to custom typeface, to this poster series, to big beautiful 3d animation abstract animation that looks like I’m sure you’ve seen things like this, it looks like bubbles and, and fire and fireflies and things sort of imploding on each other, just, you know, they do they make those magnificent things and sort of 3d animation, like really high end stuff that that’s probably billions of gigabytes, they came up with this whole, you know, visual catalog of what the London theater, you know, sort of this campaign was going to look like, and it was beautiful. And then even the way they filmed the case study. And all the type was a sort of basic Sancerre, of kind of kind of fat typeface white type on a black background. But then imagine the conductor dragging his I call it a wand or a stick, what do you call the thing that Oh,

Matthew Dols 1:01:45
God, the conductors, the block? conductors, yeah, wants

Tim Jones 1:01:50
to one, imagine them dragging it through sort of wet paint through the letter P at just such an angle, that it just trailed off, like you would, you know, feel sitting on a white pudding, and you just run your finger through it. And it was just like, it was beautiful. And they did, that’s how they did the letters. And so then they would write, they take that type. And this is all shown in this video of how that they came about with that. And, and it would say like, you know, Bach or Stravinsky, you know, just real big and that typeface with like the, the sort of abstract blob, like I just described the bubbles and the fireflies, is made with the marks that the conductor

Matthew Dols 1:02:37
when he’s waving his I just checked it up on Google, it’s called a conductor’s baton

Tim Jones 1:02:43
is motion, his movement is all about motion and movement of sound, and then visualizing it. And it would be inspired by his movement from a Stravinsky piece or something like that. So that would be that piece of art in the center is just absolutely stunning. Like the whole work was very inspired. You see stuff like that. But you know, I’d love to do something like that. And if you get a chance, yeah, definitely take it. Or if you have to work on the toilet brush thing where I spoke up earlier. Sure. Well,

Matthew Dols 1:03:12
but my point, but my question was, though, so like, what was your question the way your guys distracted? The crisis? It was? Are you sort of like what’s more desirable slash like? So like, if you were looking at somebody else’s works? Are you more admiring and envious of their idea or their technical skill? which in reality, I probably answered my own question. With that,

Tim Jones 1:03:38
well, I’m gonna be a bastard and say both, I want to see a really good idea. Of course, we all put together really well.

Matthew Dols 1:03:46
But it mean, devoid of like the concept of perfection, like that. But I mean, in reality, though, we sort of already touched on it, which is the idea that skills can always be learned. But true, being creative, and being sort of insightful and thoughtful and all that can’t really be learned, like you either have that or you don’t, it can be honed, but it can’t be taught.

Tim Jones 1:04:08
I think that is the coolest for me most inspiring. It is. Like, how did they think of that? That just looks like something that somebody wouldn’t think of? And it’s just, that’s amazing. You know, it’s almost like, I love I love seeing that. I love seeing a new idea. And and you realize that’s, that’s, you know, that’s what that’s the diamond. That’s the one thing that everyone’s looking for creators, you me, all of us, you know, and when you see someone just do you know, and it doesn’t have to be a brand new color that’s never been seen. It’s not It’s not like a unicorn so much. It’s like, that’s just people on a beach. How many times we’ve seen people on a beach Why is it so fucking good? And it’s like, well, it’s in black and white. It looks like it was shot at night and then they shot Big spotlight on them. And for some reason there are you know what I mean? It’s like they just did something unexpected to it

Matthew Dols 1:05:08
that, Oh, absolutely, then

Tim Jones 1:05:10
you urge it might be very minimal, or it might be opulent and overly busy way too many things going on. everything, every decision they made is something you would not do. And all of it together is just like, a beautiful.

Matthew Dols 1:05:24
I always think of like utilitarian design, because like I grew up with like Heller blades and, and all kinds of designer like dishware. And things like this is like, I’m always amazed that like a dish is a dish, it literally is just a surface on bit on which we put food. But yet there are millions of people designing them in such subtle little different ways that make and it’s the little tiny details that make the huge difference on whether or not it’s perfect for you, or horrible for you. Yeah, totally. And to me, like graphic design is the same thing. Like, I, I’m not amazing at graphic design, for sure. To put it lightly. But I always know I can always tell when it’s bad. But it can’t always define when it’s why or how it’s good. You can appreciate it’s just like,

Tim Jones 1:06:11
I think I totally know what you’re saying. It’s like when you look at something, a design piece, or you know, a plate or whatever like that. It’s like, I can see why it’s good, but I don’t now they decided, you know, it’s all it’s all about, you know, editing, you know, it’s a plate a black plate with one little blue, thin circle on the bottom, where the little part is that stands on the table. And that’s it in like, no one’s even gonna see that. But yeah, look how badass that is. It’s like who would have thought of that, like that special. And look at the restraint. They didn’t decorate the whole thing. They just just that one little piece. And so I kind of you know that, you know, guts, that’s another thing. Just seeing someone have a little guts, you know? that’s inspiring.

Matthew Dols 1:07:01
Indeed. All right. Do you have any advice for young graphic designers or directors or anything like that from your experiences, some some, maybe some things that went wrong, that you maybe would help them to not have to go through the same problems you did?

Tim Jones 1:07:16
Well, as far as going wrong, or doing things wrong, I’ve got you know, I guess we all kind of learn through that most of that stuff was probably just having to figure out some technical things. Because I was I was a person, I had to actually create stuff as well, especially in the beginning, I still do now. But bigger picture for me, is just do as much, don’t just do the stuff at your job because what you’re doing is crap. And it’s direct mail and no one’s gonna see it and you hate your job and you’re just trying to pay rent because you’re 22 and you’re a graphic designer, now you got this job or oh shit i wish i have. Alright, just keep your day job. Don’t Don’t quit. Your friends are in a band, right? Like make their poster make their their graphic that goes on their mp3 they sell now people still make vinyl, I did a lot of vinyl albums. And those are great like 12 inch.

Matthew Dols 1:08:11
You have a lot of work with film festivals as well

Tim Jones 1:08:14
film festivals and free free free man like you’re not making any money off. And if you don’t give a shit because this is the fun stuff. This is you. I remember I did a series these charcoal sketches of tornadoes. In my mind, there were these tornadoes. But they’re, you know, very abstract, they’re black, they’re black and smudged and smeared. And all squares, black and white. And some friends of mine put out this little seven inch, little seven it’s record. And I use one for the cover with this, like sort of scripty typeface, they were called the blessed or the blessing. It was really cool, man, I guess that was just my idea for free. But I’ve got that piece, I’ve got that record, you know, it’s like, now when I put that beside my stupid direct mail piece that I did for some graphic design agency that I hate and I know I don’t no longer work there anymore. It shows a good document of other stuff I was doing at the time, you know, so it’s just like, that stuff fueled my fire and also kept you around creatives to man it’s like you’re not just at your job and you go home and watch Netflix, you know, you’re out just like all young people are you’re out with your your people man seeing bands and you know, you get to restaurants and friends or bartenders and stuff. And over doing this spoken word thing here at the bar, Tuesdays we need like a cool flyer to pass out like go home and do that flyer, you know, like that, that kind of stuff. Because that that keeps your brain active into other areas that you won’t you know, you’re never gonna get paid to do that job. But the creative that you might come up with, is really going to liberate you and give you some, some good things to work with. But

Matthew Dols 1:09:55
I mean, there’s also the nature of like in the creative industries like you do some of these things, too. for free, because you love the people or you love their cause or whatever. And oftentimes, those are the things that end up getting you other jobs in the future.

Tim Jones 1:10:08
Absolutely. It didn’t 100% happen that way with me going up to New York, I did a large painting. And it was weird, and, you know, whatever and figurative, you know, it’s just the stuff I was doing the time has no realm and what I thought was advertising graphic design, what I was trying to find any kind of graphic design job, it just happened to be advertising. When I put my book together, and I, I want to use this piece, man, when I made I made it a book cover, just as a photo design piece. I even made it the title. Like a probably the title of the piece. And that’s the thing that caught my boss’s eye, you know? So you know that that flyer you did for the spoken word thing at your friend’s bar? is the piece that all? Oh, okay, you’re not total stick in the mud. This is cool.

Matthew Dols 1:11:03
Okay, one thing I’ve always wondered about? And is that like, a lot of young people like so, again, my students and even myself, like when I if I thought of being a designer, I would think, Oh, I want to own my I want to have my own design firm. But, but you know, if you sort of break it down into the industry wide, like, majority of people are the people who work at the design firms, not the heads that are owners of the design firms. So that, is that a is that really a desirable position. Like in the end. I mean, as much as we all it’s very romantic and dreamy to be the owner. I feel like a lot of times that might actually be substantially more stressful and possibly not as enjoyable as just being the person who does the designs. Well, I tell you,

Tim Jones 1:11:48
if you’re the owner, and you work from home, and it’s you and a partner or something that is one level, I guess, starting level, but you know, I would hate to spend all my off time hounding people for money for bills to pay, you know, and I’ve, I’ve done freelance work before on the side. And you might not get paid for six months, you might not get paid, you know, like you had to that’s, that’s not very romantic. That’s sadly that’s, that’s,

Matthew Dols 1:12:19
well, you’re also figuring out like, all of your friends and contacts are potential clients. Yeah. And

Tim Jones 1:12:25
yeah, true. And pretty soon you’re gonna find out why need a ballbuster is gonna get me paid and is going to call them and Hound them. And if that’s what has happened, I want to just create I don’t wanna have to do this, but it’s like, you’re gonna be doing that. The thing I thought I wouldn’t rafter Yes, is that the first thing that came in my mind is like, do you want to be a chef? Or do you want to own a restaurant and and owning a restaurant could be, you know, really amazing. And, you know, all the tables, the look everything you want the kinds of food you want to serve, you know, if you’re a chef, well, I guess chefs can do whatever they want. But if it’s somebody else’s restaurant, you know, you’re gonna No, no, we’re doing that we’re doing seafood mostly. And that’s just kind of the kind of chef we need. But I love it that I get to just really worry about the work and I don’t have to worry about the clients, if, if I had a pool of clients over the years that you knew personally and worked with, and were, hey, we really need you to work on all these projects, and we’ve got all these great ideas, but we need you to help us, you know, bring them to fruition. I felt that, you know, that would be different, but it’s usually few and far between. Hopefully, you can just stay inspired to create things, you know, I I’m gonna get back to art and focus on it, I guess. way in the beginning, you were asking, you know, do I miss it? Or do I do stuff on being busy with children and family is my excuse right now, but it’s it’s pretty legitimate excuse. You know, on the weekend, one weekend, I was like, I’m gonna do I’ve been saving these random objects. I find I kind of got this weird thing for found object sculpture. And so I grab pieces that are interesting. My wife and I did and we’re in New York, if we found something interesting. We would grab it. Just put it on our back. porcher we were one of the rare people that had a back porch in New York, in Brooklyn. But anyway, it was a rooftop. Yeah, it was. Yeah. And so we would keep it like I don’t know, I’m going to do with it. It’s just cool object. And then I found these things. So I ended up doing a family sculpture of the four of us and sort of like found object Totem style. And it’s right behind Matt shoulder right now. You know, it’s it’s Stupid but like, I really don’t care is fun to make and it was efficient. So it’s like, I kind of like it’s like no pressure to do that. Like I said, I’m trying to keep that curiosity on the, and I’m getting ready. And when the time comes, you know, I’ll be ready to start making stuff on site again, you know, still have my day job. You know, I’ll go tinkering in my studio, on the weekends and when I get home, and that’ll be great, because I love it, you know, and I would love to get back and do more of it. So that’s, that’s my goal.

Matthew Dols 1:15:29
I look forward to you getting back to doing it. Yeah. Yeah, me too. All right. Well, thanks. Thank you, Matt. Dols Thank you, Timothy Jones. Is it Timothy?

Tim Jones 1:15:42
When I was born Yeah. Versa tickets as temporary much after I was born, they never sit down with me again. And and my legal legal name like that would be if you were a cop.

Matthew Dols 1:15:55
Or IRA or somebody.

Tim Jones 1:15:56
Yeah, that would be Timothy. Otherwise, it’s Tim. Timmy pre 11 years old.

Matthew Dols 1:16:03
That’s sad.

Tim Jones 1:16:04
Yeah, that’s although you know, when I when I was up in New York, I worked with a lot of really sweet people. They’re lifers have been born and raised in New York. And I don’t know if it was like, like more of an Italian thing or a neighborhood thing or whatever. But Tommy, Bobby Billy Timmy, they kind of they they went back to the Timmy thing. And I had this guy and this guy Sal Landry this really cool guy. And he there he looked every bit. somebody walked out of Goodfellas. I mean, I kid you not he wore a suit. Like a sharp suit to work when people weren’t really wearing suits like that to work the jacket the whole thing. Very brushed white hair with like a Razor’s Edge part like right there in the front. Hey, Timmy. And you know, yeah, when a guy like that, cause you Timmy you’re like hey, hey, so

Matthew Dols 1:16:58
yeah call me Timmy gotta because I My name is Sal to say something like that.

Tim Jones 1:17:01
But did the finish of the story salad up poor poor guy. He ended up passing away. But all the people that worked with us were all you know, we’re all sad about we miss our like, Oh, you know, portfolio and her family and stuff. He was you know, probably 60 they started calling me Timmy in the office, like kind of in honor of him. And it was really it was really I was like, you know, it was kind of proud when they said it. It made me feel good. You know, since they’ve, you know, special. They’re the only people no one else since then. Correct? Yep. Well, thanks. Yep. Thank you. You get the last part out.

Matthew Dols 1:17:41
That was more for us. No, that’s fun. That’s the good stuff. Getting