Episode 081 - Art Nude Model, Olga Kaminska (Poland) The Wise Fool Podcast with Matthew Dols Matthew Dols 0:12 During this time of quarantines and isolations, I've been thinking a lot about how my guest Sivan told me that you know, more and more and more that the art world is all about relationships. And so one of those relationships that I started to think about was the the Muse is the, the subjects of art. So not just the practitioners that create the objects or the experiences, but the people that inspire them are the the people that are in some way the Muses that helped to bring this thing to life. So in that way, today's guest is Olga, she is a muse from Poland. And she works collaboratively much in the same way as my previous guests, Rory and Kate re also have have worked with creative people to enhance their abilities and expand their expressive ideas. So really, you know, I'm trying to figure out that Venn diagram there, how everything fits together. And it's not always an upstream thing where artists are looking to galleries and institutions and curators, but sometimes it's, it's the things that inspire us in the first place that become the most interesting. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Please pronounce your name correctly for me, Olga Kaminska 1:34 Olga Kaminska. Matthew Dols 1:35 The first thing I was asked anybody that's in the arts is basically how did they get to it? I mean, I read your bio, on the, on your website and all that, but I'm sure you have a bit of a longer story. So like, in specific for you, since you are, you know, also an art nude model, which by the way, helped me with the right terminology for that, because I don't want to downplay it or make it sound dirty or pornographic. So they give me the right words. So how did you not only get into modeling, but then how did you even sort of make that transition from traditional? Yes, because that's an interesting transition that I wonder about. Olga Kaminska 2:15 Sure. So starting from the beginning, I've tried to make it short, because as the story is quite long, but no, no, no, no, no, Matthew Dols 2:24 no need to be short. You can be as long the point of a podcast is the long story. I don't want the short story, I want a good, tell us a take me down a beautiful narrative. And let me feel the experience with you. Olga Kaminska 2:39 Okay, so starting from the very beginning, I was starting from the beauty contest for teenagers with Miss Poland. And they costed me in the shopping mall. So I was just walking around. I was 15 years old that time. And it was always my dream to became a model that my mom always told me since I was really, really little girl that I always loved the camera. And I was thinking, wow, this is something could interest me. But that time I was also very focused on fencing, I was training fencing and the club. And I was representing Poland in the junior national team. So it was my mom was really thinking I will not have so much time for school and the sports and the modeling thing. But we I negotiate with her and she said, okay, you can go to the contest. And automatically I did sign up to the agency that was organizing the contest. It's one of the best agent modeling agencies in Poland still. And they even have one model that is currently working for Victoria's Secret. Jacques Monica Gottschalk from Poland from Poland, and she's from my city. I'm very proud of that. And then later on, I get to the final of the beauty contest. And that's how slowly I was getting more and more experience in some fashion shots. I was this gave me the ability to work with very professional photographers to learn how to work on the catwalk after my high school after finishing high school. I got another request from the agency to travel abroad. And this was my first serious contract. Matthew Dols 4:40 Where did they have you go for your first contract Olga Kaminska 4:42 to Milan I think all the models to be in Milan and it was a fashion week time that I was there and was pretty fun. I I been there for one month. It learned me a lot and I do Enjoy I met a lot of nice people and it was also for me, you know, first time experience when I travel it alone and I was living with all the other models in the model house you know it's not that it's not that easy and super as they shown or as they talk about it's really a tough life you are getting from the agency a budget of I don't know I don't remember I think it was like three era for a week for food basically what is what is 30 euro for a week you know, Matthew Dols 5:38 ridiculously low, Olga Kaminska 5:40 ridiculously low and silly need to pay this back right? Matthew Dols 5:44 So they wanted you to stay skinny so you know, you're not supposed to overeat Olga Kaminska 5:49 Of course, but you can imagine what you can eat for 30 year old The good thing is Milan is a very energetic city with a lot of possibilities so it was very common to find some I would say PR people that are inviting models to the restaurant for lunch and stuff it's a very common thing in Milan so you can get a free like this was my thing to get this whole month without starving I wasn't I need to say Milan market was never it was was not a good market for my my type of beauty because I am not a skinny fashion type of model if you look at my works and we basically will go go on why I didn't stay with the fashion industry I transfer to the more artistic and art nude industry fotografie and this this Milan trip learned me and teach that learned me and showed me that a little bit of my way that what I'm good for and what I was not good for. So I took that little failure because I didn't have a lot of jobs besides some showrooms that didn't require very very skinny models. I did learn the lesson that I am good for example in luxury because the clients from the luxury and swimsuit industry was more interested about me then catwalk I was very sad about it because I I still love catwalk and I was loving fashion shows it was so it was really my thing but yeah you need to go with the you know the market so Matthew Dols 7:41 well you could do lingerie and swimwear catwalks. Olga Kaminska 7:46 Yeah, I was doing but also that time I really loved some the clothes you know the the all high fashion stuff. It Matthew Dols 7:53 was something we all love high fashion. Good in high fashion. I mean, I don't look good in high fashion buyer. Olga Kaminska 8:03 I was like but it was a nice experience. So so from this, this trip, first trip, I learned what I'm good for. And then my agency told me Oh guy, you can do more commercial stuff. And as I said sort of luxury bikini stuff. And turkey Istanbul is the best market for you. So the next travel was to Istanbul. And I was very successful there because they are a very big fan of more curvy looking models, let's say, I know Matthew Dols 8:38 I lived in the Middle East I know what they like. Yes. Olga Kaminska 8:41 And also the type of pronet models. They are very strongly connected also with Russia. So when I whenever I say my name is Olga, but I basically hide it when I say all get oil from Russia. No, I'm from Poland. And you don't speak Russian. No. They always like okay, okay, okay. I thought that Poland also speak Russian. No, no, no, we don't. But they that's what they are thinking. not uncommon, unfortunately. So after just two contracts and Istanbul, I also started to be I had more experience and I was how to say it more self confidence to try to work on my own. as a freelancer. I started to get more contacts and people started contacting me and other models recommending I think this is the best always a way to work by recommendation. Right. And this is how I started to work more for portfolio burdah their builders and more like a private shootings. And traveling on my own. This was a quite big step for me. I really needed some time to Think about if I want to do it completely on my own because I knew then agency are not so likely they will not hire me so much likely like before So, but it came out to be the right Wait for me. So also, I started to get more and more requests about. So bikini luxury, but also some more implied new charts and new charts. And to be honest, I just like it, it it's just came very naturally for me. I I didn't feel you know, I really started to work from the beginning with very professional people. This is some something how just naturally come came after the fashion industry then luxury and swimsuit and then there are nude stuff. Matthew Dols 10:57 Yeah, cuz I feel like a lot of there's a lot of sort of bad press out there about like, old men taking pictures of young naked girls. I know, I don't even know what to say about it at this point. Like, Olga Kaminska 11:14 what what does it mean? You know, like, you know, all that, but it means also experienced like, right, because you then you have, like, for example, many years of experience, which is good also. So I don't think ah, in this, I think it's meant it's not correct to say, you know, all because better Linda Berg was also an older guy, and he was taking beautiful pictures, you know, Matthew Dols 11:43 yeah, I should caveat that like, so it's not just old man taking pictures of young girls, it's, it's basically perverted amateur photographer, old men taking pictures of young naked girls. Like, that's a horrible cliche that unfortunately still exists, Olga Kaminska 12:01 there is something bad about it. But going in the other side, for example, for the model like me for a very long time. Maybe you heard about it young, beautiful girls models going to Dubai, for example. You know, you live everywhere, here. So but really, there was a time very, it was very obvious that models I say not really models, but they call themselves models, I was going to Dubai and doing stuff. And for me also as a professional model and really working abroad around the world. I was also working and Dubai. I was putting they all was putting me in the in the one in the one place, you know, and it was also very, for me, it was hurting me also because why they Why are taking the name of the model and say oh, there we are, we are professional models. No, you're not professional models Really? Matthew Dols 13:05 Well. And that's like the kind of thing like going back to like the what the right vocabulary is within like what you do so like, art model, art nude, and even like when it comes to me like I'm a photographer, but like when people say professional photographer versus photographer, like, all these little vocabulary, things can get really muddy. Whether it's, you know, on the model side as far as like professional model, or art model or whatever, versus photographers. Far too many photographers define themselves as professional when they shouldn't be Olga Kaminska 13:40 sure I agree with that, that everybody wants to be, you know, use this word professional and call themselves you know, what is it any any line to pass the say off? from professional I think there's something you just judging yourself like saying, oh, from now I can say I'm a professional, you know, after mercy, I Matthew Dols 14:05 think professional comes from basically if the majority of your income comes from the whatever that thing is, then you're a professional, Olga Kaminska 14:14 but also But hey, but you are another professional if you are very good in it and you're just a hobby photographer also, it's I think you can name yourself as a professional photographer. Matthew Dols 14:25 I mean, that's the problem is it's so vague and open to interpretation. Olga Kaminska 14:30 Exactly. I know, many, many of photographers that I was working are hobby photographers, but this is not their main job. It's it's a hobby for them, but I cannot say they can they are not doing this professionally. Matthew Dols 14:47 And just to be clear, so I don't get yelled at by all my listeners. Professional, non professional vocabulary aside that has nothing to do with the quality of the work. What you would call hobby. Sir amateur photographers who make spectacular work. And I know some quote unquote professional photographers that make horrible work. So this vocabulary thing has nothing to do with the quality of the work being produced yet. So good story I'm sticking to. Okay. So, where have you traveled then? So you So you mentioned Turkey and Dubai. So like, have you been to every continent? Have you, like done the whole world? Olga Kaminska 15:28 I didn't do the whole world yet. But I think I didn't visit for photography. Now, there are a few places, of course, I didn't visit foot photography. But mainly I was traveling and focusing on Europe. And one two times a year, I was making oversea trip, some to Asia to I was to Australia, or to United States. So Matthew Dols 16:03 do you have a preference? And or do you feel a difference working with a female versus a male photographer? Olga Kaminska 16:10 That's a hard question. To be honest. Mostly. The photographer's I'm working with are men. I had few female photographers, I never had a bad experience with a female photographer, I need to say that Matthew Dols 16:27 subtly implying that you have had bad male photographers, Olga Kaminska 16:31 I think it's just because it's there. There. I have like 99%, you know, there are male. So it's more, you know, frequently it can happen that something is missing. Matthew Dols 16:45 Yeah, just out of pure percentages and numbers, it's going to happen. Olga Kaminska 16:49 Exactly. But I think female have another point of view on the on the model, then then male photographer, this is this one I see. And this is what I saw, from my experience working with female photographers, they are constantly looking different on the on the model. But as I prefer, I don't have a preference. I can work with female photographers, and with my photographers, there's no problem. Matthew Dols 17:20 Well, you've been doing this now for what 10 years, I think is what I've counted. Yeah, over over 10 years. Yeah. So I mean, I'm sure you're pretty adapted, working with pretty much anybody that comes your way, at this point. Olga Kaminska 17:36 You know, working as a freelancer and traveling and meeting so many new people you are, it's it's just you need to be easygoing. And it's a part of my work, you know, to be easygoing. And this was also one of the thing that I loved when I travel just to meet new people, new cultures to have new experience and and you just need to be an easy, easygoing person, I think, in this industry, if you want to, if you want to make good job. Yeah, nobody Matthew Dols 18:11 wants to hire a diva. Olga Kaminska 18:13 Exactly. But, uh, you know, in some high fashion, you know, industry, I think there are some devices. Matthew Dols 18:21 And I will take as much blame for that there are divas on the photographer's side as well. Olga Kaminska 18:28 For sure. I even worked with a few device photographers, believe me, Matthew Dols 18:34 like I said, Yeah, okay. So these days, so because like, I keep thinking back to the idea that like, the idea of a traveling model of any sort, so fashion, and or now sort of art nudes, and all the different kinds of things that that are available. Traveling is reasonably new, in the grand scheme of sort of art history and all this. So, but my question now is, is like, how do you do it these days, so like, in a certain point, you could have used an agency but then if you chose to generally close the door to agencies, that's done and you can't go back. So I mean, there are those things like there used to be one model place, I don't know if it still exists, but the model may have and all those kinds of online things like do those things. work. It does, Olga Kaminska 19:24 it does still exist I I sometimes using it model my hand when I go to us or to Australia, it's very good working there. So and you say, you I close the door with the agency not completely because there is still some commercial work that I'm I'm working with, with the agencies so it's not like completely closed door of that. You can choose to close the door also, but I still have I am in contact and in touch with some agencies that that need to model like me for combat. shall work. Matthew Dols 20:00 Because that's an interesting little thing like me as an outsider, I generally assume that it once a model starts doing art nude that oftentimes a lot of doors are close to them in the more traditional senses, is that how it actually works? Olga Kaminska 20:18 This is how they say. And I was also worried about that when I started to switch to the art new modeling business. But you know, if you don't get very, like a big big campaign, which is almost impossible, if I am not a full time fashion model, you know, it's the clients are not so picky, and they are not digging out, you know, your all your name, and Google and pictures and stuff to the end. I never had an experience that the client called my agency and say, and say, Oh, no, we need to take Olga off from this project, because I found her nude photos, you know? No, not really. Not really not. Right. Matthew Dols 21:01 Okay. Well, that's good to know. I mean, that's, you know, I'm working from a stupid outsider's perspective, not knowing the ins and outs of the industry. You have that knowledge? So how do you book things these days? Because, like, my feeling is that there are basically like, so many different portals and outlets and websites. And I mean, of course, there's social media, there's your own website, then there's like, model cartel model mayhem, using one model place, like, That just sounds like a lot of work and effort. And, Olga Kaminska 21:38 yeah, it is a lot of effort and work and all this platforms that you said, you need to work on all different sides, because you never know from which platform, you will get a booking, you know, so you need to be basically everywhere, it's good to have a website, because you you are looking more professional. And and, and you have a brand, right? It's good to have Instagram, because these days, you have followers and models with many followers are getting more bookings, because they are more recognizable, or either followers now are, it's a big thing. So if you have a lot Matthew Dols 22:15 of currency in and of itself. Yes, Olga Kaminska 22:18 exactly. So you're building up your profile. And in social media, also, which is very important now. But also, I have a profile on all these platforms to show my work or my portfolio to reach to other people. As you say, model my hand, it's more for English speaking people. And it's more popular for English speaking people, model karte, it's more the most popular for German speaking people. So wherever I travel to Germany, to Austria, to Switzerland, for example, I use model karte. Because this is the thing there you know, so wherever I plan, I say, in my head, oh, I want to go to Switzerland, I will put a post or a notification on mother Carter. But also I need to use all this platforms. Like I try to make a notification and travel note on my website, on Instagram, on Facebook, on my Facebook fan page, basically everywhere, you just need to flash everywhere, you know, if people just need to see you and see your posts, you need to be active all the time. It's a lot of work because you are the model you are the manager, you are the Booker and you are often a makeup artist. And this style is also like I do all the things by myself so Matthew Dols 23:44 well. And that's my thing is that that's a it's a basically it's a full time job. It's probably even more than a standard full time job to literally like be able to do this at a level that you can earn enough income to live a decent life basically. Olga Kaminska 24:00 Yes, I need to say it was a full time job for me. I was just living from modeling I said now I have a little break because I am a mom now. So I stopped modeling for a while but I still want to come back because I really love it so and I miss traveling I miss creating something I miss posing. And I miss the people you know, you're kind of get attached to some photographers and people you'd like to work with. And I just say just miss them, you know? Matthew Dols 24:33 Well, which lends to one of my questions that I started wondering which is generally it's often thought that like the artist has their muse, right, so they have their like if they're a painter they paint the same. Yeah, yeah. Do models have favorite photographers that they think that like this photographer is my muse? They bring out the best in me, Olga Kaminska 24:56 you know? Sure. Of course, there is something like Of course, as a freelancer, I, you know, I have good possibility to choose actually work with who I want to work or with who I don't want to work. So I always say be a good photographer, because I was gonna go back to you if something will go wrong, you know? And yeah, if if we have a good connection with the photographer, we we have the same flow and creating some beautiful pictures. Yeah, you know, I follow his work, he follows my work. And we have few photographers that I'm working more often than with others. For example, Matthew Dols 25:45 one thing I noticed on your Instagram page was that you're also organizing workshops yourself at this point. So I want you to go back a step a. So the question is, do you enjoy individual shoots or workshops more as a model? And then what led you to organizing your own workshops? Olga Kaminska 26:06 So I always preferred individual shots, than workshops. Because on the workshop, you know, I also love workshops, you're meeting a lot of people in the same time, but it's less connection with them, you know, usually you have just limited time to shoot. Many photographers are doing this first time or they're amateurs, and they are very stressed, you know, to work with argued models first time or second, or because basically, they are going for the workshop to learn something. Because this is what I call a workshop. I don't do exactly workshops. I do more formal events, I would say, because the workshop is I was it's for me, there was a mentor, which is teaching or coaching something. And Matthew Dols 27:00 just to be clear, this is your bell Bell shoots events, Elisha two buttons, yes. Okay, sorry. Olga Kaminska 27:08 It's no problem. And coming back, I prefer individual shots as a model. Because I get better connection, I have more time to speak about the project with the photographer and took to create and to understand him what exactly he needs from me. And there is no no other person that say, Oh, you need to shoot like this, this, this, this this, like, it's on the workshop. And everybody has the same pictures, for example, right? So I prefer to work individually with the photographer as a model. So also what I'm doing with online photo events, Matthew Dols 27:45 my publicize give the brand name, Olga Kaminska 27:49 Bella shots, better shot photo events, this is my little babies. And last year, I tried to, from my experience, because I was working on all this workshops and to see to bring the best quality for the photographers and what they really want. So what I saw that people want a lot of time they need a little bit more time with the model itself. And this is how they learn much more than shooting you know, in a bigger group and and it's also kind of an individual session or they work like two photographers for one model. So it's a good combination to because then the other photographer I can support or help while the the one is working with the model and opposites you know this is this is how I tried to create my for events. So sometimes there's no mentor like that this teacher or mentor or coach for photography, and sometimes I'm doing like more like a freelance just Hey, come to come to Poland, I have a cool location, professional models and styling makeup, everything is there. Just common have fun, for example, Matthew Dols 29:07 we'll see that's my thing. Like, I mean, I'm a professional photographer ish, depending on how you want to find professional, but I do photography. And I often wonder about the workshops, like I picture so keep in mind, I think I'm old fashioned in this way is that somebody who runs workshops either like top of the industry, and you want to learn from the best basically, or they are workshop photographer. So these are photographers that sort of made their name their reputation running really good workshops that people leave with tourists, right Yeah, right. So basically, they're good teachers that didn't don't teach at universities or anything like this, but they teach via workshops. And I feel like that that the role of or the act of even doing these workshops in and of itself is a full time job because like to run In these workshops, you have to coordinate the locations hair and makeup, wardrobe models, food, potentially insurance, travel, and then you actually have to turn around and market this thing. So then you have to do the whole public relations. And then that's another whole layer of social media that you now have to integrate. So not only are you doing your own social media, but now you have the social media for this as well. Like, it's just I feel like there's just constantly more and more things to do that don't necessarily give us like, better results, or more money or better life or whatever. But like, lots more work to do, Olga Kaminska 30:38 I get your point of view. You know, for for me, do doing photo events was always something I really wanted to do, since a lot of like a longer time. But as you say, there's a lot of things to coordinate. So I knew being full time traveling model, it's impossible to mix with for events, I knew there will come a time that I will more settle at home. This happened when I started to be pregnant, for example, or I was was was planning with my husband to get pregnant. And yeah, and then this was the perfect time to work on my own them on the new brand. And I knew the basics, I knew how I wanted to run it, I just needed to find a good timing for it. To start to run further events and and to see if I will have anybody you know, interest in in this. But the first photo event was sold out like I don't know, in one hour, I think it was it was it was amazing. It was like I was oh my god, that was so stressful. For me. It was like No, nobody wants to come to Poland, you know, like, wants to travel to pull everybody. Everybody goes to chair, for example, to pry or to I don't know, Rome, and Ukraine Matthew Dols 32:03 is a big one. Olga Kaminska 32:05 Okay, Ukraine also. Yeah, there's a lot of gorgeous and great models from Ukraine. I also work with with a few. So I was thinking who wants to come to Poland, but it was my little dream since since a long time to say, hey, Olga, you will be the one that will show people Poland, you know, and I started from my hometown city. Yeah. Matthew Dols 32:29 Okay. Okay. So I want to know, give me like the literal, like, how did you do that? Because I feel like, you know, I'm being selfish in this, I'd like to run some workshops, but I don't know how to do it. And because I'm intimidated by that, that, by that fear that and it's a fear of failure, you know, like putting yourself out there and starting the publicity machine saying, Hey, I'm doing this thing and putting it on social media and building a website doing this. And then the fear of nobody signing up is feels like it could be a horribly embarrassing thing. Once you basically tell the world, hey, I'm doing this thing and the year that nobody will sign up. So how did you do it? So like, did you use social media? Like, how did you publicize it? What did you do to make it successful? Olga Kaminska 33:18 So to be honest, the first event I didn't publish, it's very on every platform, I did inform few of the photographers, I made the group, a closed group. So I was using my contact list from my travel experience. And the photograph was I really, really like let's like, and I make a small group, and I announced that they're sort of a kind of private group to say, hey, I want to organize something like this. This is the location these are the models This is the idea. This is what you get it this is the price you know, and as I said one hour and was sold out how many of those photographers were local and how many were traveling from for all was traveling? Oh, oh, was traveling photographers? I I have since so I did not do many many events yet. I tried to make it a very high quality I really looking on some special locations bringing models that fit to the theme I want to do and I did the until now I had I think six photo events. That's not what you know, that's not like wow, you're I'm making like every weekend you know for I don't Matthew Dols 34:40 when you say event, how long so is this like a one day half day three day like how long is this event? Olga Kaminska 34:47 Usually people come on Friday and they live on Monday. So we have two full shooting days. Friday is a terrible, terrible day. And we have some dinner and too Some little time to get to know each other with the team. And then Saturday, Sunday we're focusing on on photo shooting. And then Monday, they are usually leaving, some of them are leaving on Sunday, but the program is to usually like two full days of shooting. It's not a workshop, I say this is more like a literal holiday because little photo holiday also because they are not coming to Poland for just one day, it's too much hassle, I think. Or to my hometown, you know, I was living in war. So maybe, but the point connections to paws nine are not so so super good. They are really good connections to barreling towards. So there's always a little time to travel by bus or by car, or there are some flights to but not so many. And that's so common, like to Berlin or worse. So I was trying to find a way that it will be worth worth for them to travel to pause. And you know, I so for me, it was only an option to stay a little bit longer, you know, like a full weekend. Matthew Dols 36:09 Okay, I'm just thinking through all the logistics in my mind. And I'm just trying to wonder, like, mean, adult, you know, if you sort of deconstruct this and go backwards, like the reason why, like, let's say somebody like you can pull something like this off reasonably easily is because you have spent so much time in that industry, made the connections built, the network's done all the work. Whereas, like, again, I'm being selfish. I'm new to Europe. And I don't have any of those networks and connections here in Europe. Now if I did it in America, maybe I could probably pull it off there. But you know, it's but the idea that basically, you have to, even from your side, because like I'm always thinking about artists and how they need to build their networks. But really you as a model as a muse, whatever word we want to put to this, that you also have to actively build and and nurture a network in order to continue to grow your career. So as well, Olga Kaminska 37:12 yes, I think connections and building a network in or doing a modeling, travel modeling moves or going for events, it's the same thing. It's all about contacts, it's all about contacts, good reputation, and recommendation from from other models or people that was satisfied after the first event, you know, they talk about you talk about your, your brand, or or, or the model and they want to come back or they want to book me again, for example. Matthew Dols 37:43 I love it. I mean, I wish I wish there was sort of a way to get it done easier, in many ways. Like because I said like, I think a lot of the fear of failure stops a lot of potentially good people doing this. Olga Kaminska 37:59 I think everybody has a little fear opening and your business. I don't know anybody that opening a new business and being so selfish to say, Oh, this will be in 100% you know, great thing. Okay, maybe they are some but all of my friends, they was building a new brand or opening a new business they have of course some some fear if they're if it's gonna run, what if it's not gonna run? I need to say I also had not all of the events was selling very fast, like the first one, I need to say that you need to constantly work promote, making announcements that people just need to see you people need to see the result from your work or if it's my work as a model work, or the results from the from the events for the for the events, Matthew Dols 38:54 actually interesting, because that leads to a question that I have wondered about, because some models I see on their social media, all professional shoots, so it's all you know, results of collaborations with other artists photographers, because it could be which also is another question I'll get back to that too. But whereas some other models have seemed like a mix, maybe of like some professional shoots and lots of selfies or personal fun types of things. What do you think about that? Olga Kaminska 39:26 Because, you know, I think it's just everybody are trying to find their own personal thing that this make, how happy they are creating an image how the people wants to see them. Me I was trying in the in the very beginning of creating my Instagram. I was also mixing I was mixing my personal photos, as I say some selfies some professional photos, but then I Saw, it's nicer and I gain more followers. If I put only professional work on, it's, it's more, it was more clear and I know more was looking more professional, let's say. So I think it's just something that everybody just needs to find their their own way either I, I cannot say that I blame somebody that they do selfies or they do or they just show professional works or they combine You know, I think it's I know models that they do both and they are doing great and they have a lot of followers and they are very popular also. So I just think is they are doing what they want they basically wants to how to how to show their profile, Matthew Dols 40:46 I just wonder about it because I mean I of course know you know all the big famous models that are now basically the brands in and of themselves they do certain ways versus you know, and I've seen some people who do very very professional sort of almost portfolio type of feeds which is great Olga Kaminska 41:03 yeah, it's also Can I can I jump in this in between on my website for example, I would never show any selfie and and or a non professional photos on website always show my professional photos. But on Instagram is a little bit like a social media thing. I think it's it's, it's still okay to mix it up as you so you can choose or you're just looking on more professional feed, adjust professional feed, or more selfie or combined, I don't think is something bad or on the other like model my ham is for me strictly portfolio, just professional portfolio image there. What Instagram makes a little bit Matthew Dols 41:53 there are all these different outlets and then of course all these different social medias and and they're all these different social medias that restrict nudity on them. Why have I think it's coming? No, no, it's not that no, I promise this is not the question you're expecting. Why have the art nude models not gotten together and basically sort of unionized or created their own agency that they could then do their own thing together with the support of each other and with the help of each other instead of sort of fighting for all this different stuff and having to work on all these different platforms? Olga Kaminska 42:35 That's a very good question. I will not answer strictly about an undead but I need to say that I was also thinking like you about it, how to unite all the models and how to help the model so I need to say I created but more for the safety of the models because we traveling models we are we don't have any law that is protecting us you know, we are traveling we are all by ourselves and talking about most of my experience was good, but they are sometimes some bad experience that you want to share with the models and or you don't want that the other model will will will have the same situation. So I did actually create a private group called the model safe space on Facebook. And I invited few of the models that we can share experience because it's a little black list of photographers, let's say so we can be aware with who to work and we've heard to avoid right so but it's not only a blacklist I need to say we are also putting their names with who to work with or who was great to work and stuff like that. Matthew Dols 44:05 Within that so you're using words like good to work with bad work with this guy stuff. Give me some examples of like when you say somebody is good to work with what is the thing that makes them what's the quality about them that makes them good to work with and equally so what's the quality that makes them bad to work with bad to work? Okay, good let's do positive Okay, let me caveat that question because it's not a good and bad photographer because like they make beautiful images but maybe not be enjoyable to work with. So like there's exactly yeah, you know, expand on that. Tell me some stories. Olga Kaminska 44:46 I would say from my personal experience because every model can can have another you know, thoughts about this and say you different things, what they like and what they are, you know Saying what is the good type of how good photographer to work with them. So for me, I like the atmosphere overall, I like to have everything pre prepared before I like when the photographer is sending me some mood bars before. So I know how to prepare for the shot to be as professional as I can be. And what is the mood? What kind of styling I need to take? What are we going to shoot? What is what his interest in or because sometimes they don't want to make all the art nude, right? They sometimes want to make more glamour or luxury or swimwear or if he wants to work on location or he wants to work in the studio or he wants to work outdoor, this informations are very important for me. So I always asked the photographer's to send me all which city, right? Where, where, where where is based the studio or the outdoor location? Or where do we meet, you know, little things for organizing, I like things to be organized because it makes my managing traveling money management go a little bit easier. Matthew Dols 46:16 Understandably, yeah, Olga Kaminska 46:17 yeah. And I said atmosfere on the shooting, it's very important for me, I like as I said, I'm, I tried to be and I think I am a talk active person and open person. I'm most open minded. I like when people you know, smile, to me on the shooting, you know, I think it's just some basic stuff. But sometimes people forget about it, you know, just my makes, you can break an ice, you know, in between. So, and usually, there's really not so much time to get to know each other, that I need to trust this person, you know, to be able to pose naturally and out for without clothes, you know, I'm just a human I, I need to also feel to feel safe, you know, with this person. So everything. So I like when the photographer is prepared and as, as much as possible professional in the way of how this photo should should need to be. Matthew Dols 47:30 Yeah, to run. Yeah, whether it's timeline or organization or locations, whatever, like you got to have some planned. Like, I generally say like, you should have a plan. And then once you show up on the day, the plan sort of goes out the window, but you at least have someplace to start the foundation that everybody agrees on. Yeah, Olga Kaminska 47:50 you know, photograph that is the thing to be creative. So you don't need to always suck only to the point like, okay, I ride on the, you know, point 1.2 point three, and you need to start like 1234 Now, of course, you're flexible. And this works. And this is not working. So you just go with the flow. You know, this is Matthew Dols 48:12 I have never experienced a photo shoot where you do like an itemized, like 10 minutes here, five minutes there. 10 minutes here, and it actually follows that timeline. Olga Kaminska 48:22 I did have photographers that had this kind of schedule, so Matthew Dols 48:28 they were German. Olga Kaminska 48:29 You got me Yeah. I really, I also like to work with, I work a lot in Germany and I like their, their, the way of how they work because it's very organized and it's also making my life easier. So Matthew Dols 48:45 I in Germany, okay, when you were just talking about that dawned on me something that I okay. I've had this conversation with other photographers and even models going back and forth over decades now. Some photographers are get behind the camera, and they get very quiet and they just, they just let the model do their thing. They don't react they don't say anything. They don't smile, they just take pictures and then when it's done then they say oh, thank you and some other photographers are very vocal very physical very energetic. Oh beautiful, beautiful I love what you're doing do more of that you know this kind of stuff. Olga Kaminska 49:24 I love the feedback to be honest like I love it you know in need to bring it to the model you need to say she's good you know, you need to say yeah, just to bring the energy level up. You know, this is very important. Matthew Dols 49:40 Well, I remember early in my career I was the stand behind the camera very quiet. Very, you know, I was the artist and like a Be quiet. Let's focus kind of thing. And my most recent photoshoots like I have music playing in the background, you know, and the tip, whatever their taste is, yeah. And now And I'm sitting there going Beautiful, beautiful love that more of this and like, I feel like such a cheeseball. While I'm doing it. I know that the models appreciate it. Olga Kaminska 50:10 Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, I think I think all the models appreciate that. Really, because there's a sign that you are good doing a good job. You know, if the photographer is like, as you said of the first type, very quiet concentrate, I am sometimes asking everything is okay. Because I want to hear if I'm doing okay, if I don't do okay, please let me know. Or you're quiet because you're focused, or it's not something that in that direction, I'm, I'm trying to pose and so I'm trying to, you know, always ask this photographers if they are satisfied with if I'm going on a good way of posing are this is not really what they are looking for? Because they can Yeah. Matthew Dols 51:02 Which leads me to another question that that when I when I moved to Europe, I show started showing my some of my portfolio to some agencies and some models and stuff and they would look at and they go, Oh, you're American, it seems that there is some American aesthetic that is different than European aesthetic. So my question for you is as having worked in multiple different regions, specifically it like it's things like certain types of posing like I my guess is in a reasonably educated guess at this point is is that America is more the sexualized eroticism of the s curves, the all that kinds of versus Europe, which is less of that. Olga Kaminska 51:48 So I wanted to answer about is yes, that. Yes, in the US. I see a lot of glamour photos, like a lot of color glamour photos with even if they go outdoor, the youth flashes. And they have this glamorous, you know, look on the Playboy. Yeah, playboy Oh, yeah, playboy, glamour, looking model. Beautiful. And, yeah, and in Europe, I see more artistic, like black and white portrait focusing more on the under phase and portrait, you know, lines, body parts, you know, working with all the available light, which gives you more shadows, you know, and you can, or softness, depends, but yeah, it's I don't want to say that in us. They're less creative. No, no, no, no, no. Or they're only working with glamour, no, no, no, no, no. But yeah, the the photographer's I was working with, they they prefer and what I saw in their portfolio, there was mostly this, this type of photographers, and they prefer this, this kind of style. Matthew Dols 53:01 Well, that's the thing as a photographer, so I was, early in my career, I learned all my stuff, I went to school and started my career in America. And then I've lived in the Middle East, and now I'm in Europe. Now, as an American, we wanted to shoot like Europeans. And a lot of the Europeans that I meet, want to shoot like Americans. And so there's this interesting relationship of this subtle difference because I don't think it's a dramatic difference. But it's a subtle difference that many European photographers desire to shoot with American models and in American style, and many American photographers desire to shoot with European models in a European style. Olga Kaminska 53:41 Oh, I need to say, whenever I go to America, I'm always very successful, like, Oh, it's fully booked. Like, they really, really appreciate the effort of the traveling model. It's always amazing for me to work in in us I need to say that because they are all people that was just always so it's always so appreciate European model like that. It was just great collaborating with them. Matthew Dols 54:10 As an American, when a traveling model from Europe or from anywhere in North America would come around it's always like ooh, the exotic model Olga Kaminska 54:21 because there's not so common you know that they are so often also there as I said, I'm I was I am very often was traveling around Europe. And it was easy. Easily the photographer's could catch me living in Iraq, but in us, you know, you need to wait one time in a year or even longer to so yeah. Matthew Dols 54:44 Well, one of the one of the things that I also thought about while I was sort of trying to find some models to do this, I realized most of the models that like let's say I follow their careers, or I've or I've even worked with them or whatever. I don't know what their voices sound like. They Models become this sort of iconic status this thing that this still image, this voiceless figure. And it's like, well, you have voices Olga Kaminska 55:14 Oh, I hate my voice by the way, if you're gonna think I'm gonna love like, Oh my god, I sound like that you know what I mean? Matthew Dols 55:22 I do. I'm totally over it. I have a question that I is a deep one. So take a minute, think about this question. Okay? How does it feel? Okay, I'm a photographer, or let's say I'm an artist, and I hope to have my work someday in a museum or an institution or in the art history books, and I will feel proud and honored if I ever get such an opportunity. Okay. Now you're going to be potentially the Muse or the model or the subject of these artworks that are going to be in museums and art history books. Do you ever think about that? Olga Kaminska 56:07 Oh, yes. Oh, I need to say there, I was published already, in some photographic books, and photos that I created with photographs with the photographer was having an exhibition already in some museums, and it's, I'm always very, as you said, I'm always very proud. And I really appreciate that they choose and very happy that they choose our work to there is something that they want to show to other people. And it's good enough to show to other people. And I always it's privileged, for me that they choose me as the moose to be in there, we're in the books, or an exhibition or another, or a magazine, or even a portfolio, even even the online portfolio is also a big thing for me. For me, it's also you know, it's not that big as in, you know, in the printed book, because it's very rare now, right? To see works in print. And I still, it's sad for me, because I really love photographic books. And it's something to have this, you know, piece of art in your hands. And you see, it's me. Wow, it's really amazing feeling. Matthew Dols 57:31 Now, you've been doing this for more than a decade, you are currently married, have a baby, congratulations. I didn't say that before. So I'm saying how long have you been married? Five years. Okay. So that lends to my question, which is, how did being a nude art model affect your personal relationships? It could be family, friends, dating, whatever, like, did it? If did it even affect it? And if so, Olga Kaminska 58:01 this is a very good question. I really, it's a very good question. It will be not very short, I would say. In the very beginning of my photographic career, I never had problems to be in the relationship to have a boyfriend, I need to say, you know, all the all the boys was coming to me and because they knew or so my works, are they all she's modeling, you know, and I was always kind of, you know, getting Dave was always kind of getting attracted to me. Until I met my husband, all the other relationship was ending because of my modeling, to be honest. There was. So it was something that was just they couldn't accept, they couldn't accept and it was very hard for them to accept that I'm traveling. At that time, very early. I wasn't do I didn't do the art nude stuff. But I was traveling, I was abroad, I was working, you know, with a lot of new people. And I was not on all the time with them, for example. So it was always an issue for them. Until I met my husband, it was also not very, he's completely not from the modeling industry. So for him, everything was new. It was not very easy for him in the beginning, but as but he trusted me and I needed to trust him too. So it's a lot about trust, I think in in the relationship you just need to trust and and and rely on the person and I was trying to also tell him how this business is looking how it's planning how I find bookings, how I work with photographers how and that I it showed to him that I really treating this very serious and professional from my side and then coming on the family part. I will tell you No story. So Matthew Dols 1:00:03 the story about family, because I wonder about this, like, I mean, I've known plenty of crazy girls in my life. I've known strippers and girls that model new knowledge. And I often wonder, I'm like, how does your family react to this kind of stuff. Olga Kaminska 1:00:17 So my, my family, my mom and dad, obviously, when I was starting to modeling, I was under 18. So my mom needed to sign the permission that Oh, she can be in a model agency and blah, blah, blah. But after I was 18 years old, I started from my aside, I was starting to create more and more explicit, let's say, photography than the art nude photography. Of course, I was not showing them Oh, look, Mom, I did session eyes knew the photo. But somehow, they realized that I'm doing this kind of photoshoots very fast. I got to be in playboy, I think just after I think. Two year two years after doing Matthew Dols 1:01:08 art is what your website says, Yeah, Olga Kaminska 1:01:11 after two years, I play by a Poland asked me to be on the cover, which was a big, while while we will follow me here, you know, and, of course, you know, so I need to tell you that my dad was the first one in the shop, buying almost all the magazines from the shop. And not because he didn't want that. It's that he didn't want that anybody sees me, but actually, for his friends, he was saying, Give me all his best friends say, this is my girl. You know, it was? Not it was it was like that. So this is this is my dad. It was it was really fun. And I'm still making fun of this. Because usually, dads would say, yeah, we'll buy all the magazines, so nobody can see my girl. But that was quite tough to know about it. Matthew Dols 1:02:08 Well, just as an aside, what What do your parents do for a living? Olga Kaminska 1:02:12 So my dad has his own company, and my mom, she's helping to run the company. They are making private transportation. So my dad has some private transportation company. Matthew Dols 1:02:27 That's what I was just wondering sort of is if it was related to our completely No, no, no, no. Okay, so beyond the relationship thing, something else that I, you know, I fear, and so they bear with me on this. Do you ever feel like have you ever had any stalkers or people that have sort of crossed a line? Because I mean, they're, to a certain extent, like, by choosing to be an an nude model, you have become a sexualized thing to a lot of people. And I would imagine, I imagine that there are people that take that too far. And have you had any sort of bad experiences like that? Olga Kaminska 1:03:13 I'm trying to think, but if there was something high in my, as you say, like stalkers, or something like that, um, I, to be honest, I never had a very negative situation that I said I needed to go to the police or something like that. No, I Matthew Dols 1:03:36 that's excellent. That's good to hear. Like, as I said, I'm afraid that these things Yeah, Olga Kaminska 1:03:41 yeah, no, I personally never had an experience like that, that I really needed to go to the police because some I was afraid about my life or something like that, that it was dangerous for me. And no, no, no. Okay. Matthew Dols 1:03:58 All right. Last thing is you'd never got to describing bad photo situations. Okay, bad photo situations. How I tried to avoid it. I know. I'm coming back to it. I'm taking notes. I've been taking notes to remind myself to go back to topics, Olga Kaminska 1:04:22 though I remember I even made a post on my Instagram. One time was quite popular, because it was a list of things. What photographer should avoid on the photoshoot? And maybe, so answering I'll try to make a circle on that. So what I don't like for example, on the photo shoot is I think I mentioned is like lack of organization from the photographer's side. What I don't like is the lack of communication. I think it's one of the most Important things. Also very important thing is don't just to say the very loud is don't add to the model, it's this is something like, you need to have distance and the photograph or need to respect my limitation, the most of my posing limitations because saying that I'm art nude model doesn't mean I do porn, or I do erotic work. Also, this is very important. So the photographer need to respect the model limits, and sometimes they don't. So that's what I say it's a bad experience and a bad photoshooting when they don't respect model fotografie limits. So they asking for things that the models don't do, you know, or they want to date the pose the way that the models don't, don't like on the one to do, or generally don't respect the model, right? It happens also, sometimes you know, that they are thinking, Oh, they are super great. And the model is just an item, for example. And they think that they can move my hand for example without asking or, you know, or putting me in the position without asking No, this is something it's a no no. Like, you've never touched them without the permission. Matthew Dols 1:06:21 Okay, with permission I understand because like, there are times where I've had where like a clothing is hanging the wrong way. So you want to go in and just sort of drape it the right way or a piece of hair's falling the wrong place. And what I would just Olga Kaminska 1:06:33 ask like, Oh, I see something is on your head or the piece of fabric is not looking correctly Can I you know, and can I and then they will say yes or no Oh wait, I will do it by myself right there is some Matthew Dols 1:06:50 sure there are certain body parts that no photographer should adjust the clip. Olga Kaminska 1:06:55 Here there is no explosion. Oh, there's some fabric it is not looking nice. Matthew Dols 1:07:01 That that's just inappropriate. The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols - www.matthewdols.com All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com