Episode 061 - Painter + Podcaster, Carl Olson, The Artful Painter Podcast (Georgia, USA) The Wise Fool Podcast with Matthew Dols Matthew Dols 0:12 Please pronounce your name correctly for me? Carl Olsen 0:14 Carl Olson. Matthew Dols 0:16 Now, where do you Where were you born and raised. Carl Olsen 0:19 I was born in Fort Campbell, Kentucky, army brat. My dad was in the military back, almost giveway age. He was in 100. And first he was a paratrooper. And interestingly enough, he left as a conscientious objector. And we moved here to Georgia, where he was originally from, and I've been in Georgia, since I was about four years old. And I've actually lived in the same place, all my life and never intended that I always had an interest in travel, always thought I would move someplace else. And somehow another, I ended up staying in not only my hometown, you know, the home county of Georgia, but I've done a lot of travel. And so I guess that helped control the the wanderlust that I had for as a kid wanting to travel. Matthew Dols 1:13 So how did you come to so you I read on your website, and you just said that you worked in software and web design and things like this? So what sort of sparked your creativity when you were younger? Where there's your parents, your family, a family friend, a teacher? Like how did you even get into the creative fields, Carl Olsen 1:32 I always liked to invent things, me and my buddies. When we were in elementary school, we were always concocting these things. We were the we were nerds and geeks before being a nerd and geek was fashionable, you know, so drawing was a huge part of that. And so we were always drawing, and that, I think, sparked an interest in the visual arts, though, you know, that wasn't really what was on my mind, what was on my mind is I wanted to create these amazing machines, you know, airplanes, rockets, and, and things like that. So drawing was the means to the end to get to the rocket, you know, you drew it, and then you made the model and, and went from there. So that's, I guess that was the genesis of it. Was was that? Matthew Dols 2:22 Yeah, I took art architecture classes when I was young to do sort of build construct things that I could never actually build in reality. Carl Olsen 2:30 Yeah, well, that's. But you know, back when I was in school, we did not have a lot of the technology that we have. I remember, my first exposure to computer was in high school. And it was a teletype machine that was remotely connected to a huge IBM mainframe, and you typed in your commands. Matthew Dols 2:50 That's what we had, you are showing your Ah, yes, now you're Carl Olsen 2:54 showing your age. But it was an exciting time, because this was the time when the space age was basically Sputnik baby. So the space age was coming to the fore in the 60s. And that was when there was a lot of innovation tech, technologically, where there was the miniaturization of electronics, a lot of ingenuity in the space program. All of those things fascinated me as a as a young child. And when I saw that teletype machine in high school, I knew that at that time, it would be a good idea if I took a typing class. Now, that was brilliant on two courses. One was, I was the only guy in the typing class. Matthew Dols 3:45 I remember taking a typing class and being well there you go. Carl Olsen 3:48 Good for you, man. And, and the second thing is I picked up I learned how to type. Yeah. And that has served me in writing, programming, creating show notes today for podcasts and video scripts and that sort of thing. So I am so happy of all the classes I could have taken. And it has nothing to do with visual arts other than it was writing, typing, but I'm glad I took that class. And there was one other class I took that was I took a year of drafting, which they don't teach in schools anymore, as far as I know, at least not here in in the south where I live. What a wonderful, no, it's more auto. Yeah, no, this was this was grafite to develop. I mean, it was I loved it. I really enjoyed it. And that was one of the few classes I actually did well in high school. So Matthew Dols 4:43 I graduated I remember going out with my Yeah, I remember going out with my parents and buying, trying to track down like trying these kinds of materials like we there. It's very interesting how there is there was a time when those those material qualities were very important in the In the craftsmanship in the end the execution of creative acts, that seems like is a lesser these days. Carl Olsen 5:08 Yeah. It's, and I admit I kind of I strayed from the path as well, because I did I, I was interested in technology, I love computers and electronics and things like that I went to school to study aviation electronics and never used it. But I was again exposed to computers and, and so I went that direction, but I still had that, you know, there was this nation, a nation laid it desire to create things, and oddly enough writing software was an act of creation. Creating human interaction was an act of creation. And I and as I got into software for my own IT company back in 1985, and was basically had my own software company since 85. I recently retired, but two years ago, my business most of it anyway. And I, it always fascinated me that most software people viewed use terms like architecture, for software development. And me, I viewed it as sculpture, you were sculpting code, because it was very fluid. And no one ever saw what was going on behind it. But what you would end up with is this interaction with people, the machine with people and the architecture thing. You know, it was okay, I get it, where they were coming from. But I realized that it was more of an art and the methodologies that were used today in creating software or less emphasis on the engineering. I mean, they're still called software engineers. But they're really artists, in my opinion. They're they're artists, they're crafting code, and things like that. But I have to tell you, over the years, I became dissatisfied with software simply because it is this intangible, it's ephemeral. It's, there's nothing there left. Once you go in, Matthew Dols 7:23 well, not only that, but there's you're also sort of chasing a drag. Oh, yeah. because technology is constantly changing and constantly evolving. And an interest by the public is constantly changing. So you're having to either adapt your existing software or build brand new software to keep up with trends and changes in technology and all this. I mean, that's got to be a draining sort of like, thing that like you, you, you try to make something and as soon as you make it almost, it's outdated by the time it's done. Carl Olsen 7:53 Yeah, exactly. It's, and there's nothing to show for it. I shouldn't say, well, there really isn't much to show for it. I mean, when I would go with my dad, and we would drive downtown Atlanta, he was a sheetmetal worker, okay. When he left the military became a sheetmetal. worker. And on the side, he became a flight instructor. Okay, but, but I could drive downtown and dad will say now you see that building right there. He's pointing at a 40 story building with all these gargoyles hanging off. He says, me and my buddy put those up there. And then he goes someplace. Oh, yeah, you see those big ol brass doors there. It was polished I, I put those in, you know, and he can do that, to this day, those things are still there to this day. And I got me thinking, you know, my dad was a sheetmetal worker. And I admit, as a teenager, and in my 20s, I didn't have a proper regard for craftsman. Which I deeply, deeply regret because craftsmans are really the the lifeblood of people today. And he has something to show. And that's why I started more and more, I guess this was back in the 90s I really started to take an interest in, you know, art that you could touch that had a connection, a physical connection with the artist in some way. Matthew Dols 9:14 Alright, so let's get to your art then. So, so you you have done both. You've been a photographer, right painter, is that correct? Okay, so, when you started off, you said, Okay, I'm going to do this and what did you do? How did you sort of evolve into it? And what what is it ended up becoming over the decades of doing it? Carl Olsen 9:36 Well, the way I would always try to find a way to take a boring job and turn it interesting. You know, so, you know, I get, you know, a client would hire me to write a database application. And but I was always listening to their team at their team meetings, what their problems were and one there was a paper company I was working for. They wanted to do demonstrate the various properties of the paper products that they sold. Bingo, I think, okay, I can show them something visual here, I can take photos, I can do a video I can do, I can create a hit back then they call it a multimedia presentation. So that's, that's how I started specializing in producing those kinds of content. This was back in the early 90s, when it was just really ancient. And it was very difficult. You were running on limited hardware, but I did everything I could. And I was able to use my camera and, and do physical things to integrate it with the digital that we were doing. So a lot of that would become a basis of the work. My breakthrough, I think moment was when a friend of mine is a musician he used to play with Frank Zappa. He played, he was one of the cofounders of the one hit wonder, Ban missing persons back in the 80s. And then he went on a solo career with Peter Bellman of Tangerine Dream invited him to his new label, which was called private music at the time. But then, things started changed internet happened. And Patrick decided to create his own record label. Now this is in the early 90s. And he says, Carl, do you want to help me do this? Can you do this? I said, Sure. Dude, he didn't ask me if I knew how to do it. He just asked me Can you do it? Always use that question? You know, I listened carefully to the question. I don't want to deceive anybody. But you know, they asked me Can you do it? Almost always said, Yes, I would figure it out. Rarely do they ask me if I knew how to do it. And I felt that was my job was to figure out how to do things. And so I was invited to do art direction for his new record label. So this is the first time I'd ever done pre press, I'd done graphic design. And I got really excited about doing the album cover of his first release on that. And that was the first time I'd ever set foot in art galleries. I figured well, I'm gonna go look in an art gallery. You know, I would travel out west with my family and, and I'd never set foot in an art gallery. And I'd go in, and this is the first time I'd really paid attention to painting. Contemporary painting, there was a contemporary artist by the name of john Nieto, he was part A patchy, Native American, contemporary, focused painter, very colorful portraits of Native Americans and, and American west wildlife. And I loved it, I thought, This is what I would love to use for the album cover. didn't do it. It really didn't fit the theme of the music. But that's when I first started looking at art galleries. And I thought this is amazing. I love this stuff, to see the paint to see the brushstrokes to see it up close. I'd never done that. I've been to museums, but you know, I didn't have regretfully I didn't have the interest at that time. So I didn't closely examine. But now I had a purpose. I was trying to do this job. And then it it lit this fire inside me in the early 90s. And I just I didn't I want to become a painter. I want to do this. It's so it worked out I that's when my interest started in creating paintings, paintings, to the works of art on canvas or panel and paint, acrylics, oils, whatever. It was the first time I really had a passion for these things. And then I would start creating things on watercolor paper. And sometimes I would I started figuring out okay, how can I transfer my photos, watercolor paper, these It was just an exciting time. The 90s was a very exciting time because you had the internet explosion you had web design, hit the market for the first time inkjet printing, inkjet printing. I took a class, a one on one class with Graham Nash of Crosby, Stills Nash and young. Matthew Dols 14:15 Our risk predator of Nash, Carl Olsen 14:17 yes, Nash additions. Man, that was incorrect. This was in right about 2000 I guess. It was here in Atlanta, he came to Atlanta, and there was only two or three people in the class. And so I got to, I spent a whole day with Graham Nash of all people. And so I really got interested in the physical art transferring digital art, physical art. But I still wanted to paint paint was really what I wanted to do, but my business was still going full bore at that time. So it was really hard to find the time to actually do paintings. Like I'd like dabble here and dabble there and, and that was that but I'm still trying to incorporate creating content for my clients. Matthew Dols 14:59 And so Then then you went on and you started actually producing your own works. And then you even went on and made a podcast about that as well, which is how I ended up finding out about you at all. So are you a practice? Oh, I mean that it sounds like you're retired from software. You're a practicing photographer slash painter and podcaster. Carl Olsen 15:22 I think that's life right now. I might. So about two years ago, well, prob about three years ago now. I was at total burnout with it, writing software and having people work for me. And that's where I just, I love the people that work for me, but I just, I didn't want to manage it anymore. Just what I just did. I want to just be me, you know, and go do what I wanted to do and not have to answer to anybody to a reasonable degree and, and my wife just one day, she says, Why don't you just close it up? Just do this. I'll support you just go pain. I love her dearly. I've been married to her for 40 years. Matthew Dols 16:07 This is why I love her. I look forward to when my wife comes to well, it'll come. So now do you exhibit? Are you are you represented like so what? How are you? I guess the question is sort of like, how are you getting yourself out as a professional artist to the world. So Carl Olsen 16:29 I consider myself a beginner. So this is this is the process I first thing I did. About two years ago, I took my first workshop about two and a half years ago, I figured if I'm going to really master painting, I want to learn from the best. That was good. Well, there's also an element of naivety there because I didn't really understand how workshops work, I just figured, Okay, I'm gonna go sign up for this workshop, and go take it and I'm gonna have the fundamentals right. That's Matthew Dols 17:00 why I've only attended, I think, one, maybe two workshops my entire life. And they were actually both through my Oh, wow, that I attended. So it tell me your experiences with workshops, it Carl Olsen 17:11 was it was an eye opener, I learned a lot from the artists that I took. The first workshop I took is from a landscape painter, named Matt Smith. He's, he's, a lot of people like to collect his work. And for good reason. It's beautiful. Southwest motifs is representational impressionistic, and it's just beautiful. And I liked I liked the way he painted. So I thought, Well, okay, he seems to know how to do this. And he's done it for 30 something years, you know, I might learn something here. And so I did go to the, to the workshop, we took our equipment, was class classroom setting, I want to mention to I want to give credit to to have this happen as well. It was here in Georgia, of all things, we have a Western Art Museum, Matthew Dols 18:05 the booth, I would not never have said that I wouldn't have either. Who would have thought Carl Olsen 18:13 that in Georgia. There's a museum like the Autry or something like that out west base here in cartersville, Georgia, it's about 35 miles from where I live. And it's going toward the mountains. And it's a beautiful country. It's a beautiful town. And there's this amazing Museum, the biggest Art Museum in Georgia is the high Museum, but it focuses. It has nice representational art in its permanent collections. And from time to time. They'll do exhibits like the impressionist and things like that. But a lot of it is contemporary art, which has a lot of interaction, public likes, that is not the kind of art I want to create. I have an appreciation for it, but it's not what I wanted to create. So the booth museum I gravitated toward because they had both contemporary and as well as artwork from from artists that are no longer around. It's just an incredibly fine collection. And it includes a lot of the eclectic contemporary art that's being done by today's artists. I just I just love it is a place of inspiration. But they run a place called just right next to the museum. It's called the booth Art Academy. And they run Yeah, and they run very reasonably priced workshops in that Academy. So it's a nice classroom setting. And then of course, there's places that you can go and, and paint outside. So that's, I want to give credit to the booth museum because they've done a fantastic job of setting up these classes for art and all different mediums and, and a lot of different styles. It's just, it's just an incredible place to learn. They also arrange demos with our Artists like Scott Christensen, Kwang Ho, and many others, it's just been a fantastic experience. So that's where I went, I think well, that's, that's the place to go to learn. So I took a workshop from Matt Smith, he laid down the fundamentals, and for the first time, it was starting to click in my mind, okay, this is how I build a painting. I didn't want to paint exactly like Matt. I think that's the downfall of workshops. You know, a lot of there. I did learn in this, there's, there's workshop junkies, that's all they ever do. They just go to workshops. I don't want to be that guy. I mean, I love the artists. But I did take one more workshop after that. And then I said, that's it. I'm not doing any more, I'll go to demos, but I won't. I won't go to a workshop until I'm ready for the next step. Because I want to apply what I'm learning. So that's where I started, I started doing the workshops, those two workshops that helps establish and then what I've done since then have said, Well, okay, I'm going to try to paint 50 paintings this year, I'm gonna try to do 100 paintings this year, because that's how you you learn how to do it. Well, now Matthew Dols 21:05 the reason why I ask is because like, I've had mixed experiences with workshops, like one one experience, I learned a lot, but that's because I was young. And I was highly motivated. And I mean, I was still 27 years old, and I went there. And I, I literally think I didn't sleep for five hours. So I could just be working and working, working as much as I could with the resources they were offering me. It was at the Aspen school. I can't remember the name of it. But then I did another workshop with a very famous photographer, and it wasn't Oh, Doug Sturges. I put you on the spot, I'm sorry. Oh, no, I don't mind it. Just my own arrogance got in my way. And I want I love john Jones, I think he's absolutely magnificent photographer. And my own arrogance got in the way. And so like, I was unable to connect with him in a way that was sort of productive or helpful in any way. Because it was just my own issue has little to do with him. It had more to do with me. And so this is the this is the dynamics of like, I hear stories about people going to workshops, and some people say they're absolutely fabulous. They learned a lot. And then I hear other people saying that they went and it was just completely boring. And it was very fundamental. And it wasn't what they expected. So like, that's why I'm saying like, what are your What are your experiences? Yeah, Carl Olsen 22:33 so I, for me, I was a beginner, I felt that the class was appropriate for me. I did you know, the negative side of it was there were like I mentioned before is there are the workshop junkies, they're the junkies in there that it's almost like they're not there to learn. They're there to impress the painter. And, and they will dominate his Matthew Dols 22:55 philosophy. Well, and I think that's what I was when I went to mind with jack. But there, there is this sort of philosophy that like if you go to a workshop, you try to impress the teacher, because then the teacher might then help your career. Carl Olsen 23:10 Yeah, but see, I'm not I wasn't making that worse. And I was paying the painter for the workshop. I didn't want to hear how impressive this student was. I mean, I you know, I'm always interested in learning about new artists, but I went there because I wanted to learn this, I want to learn from this man or this woman. And I don't, I didn't pay the other students for that, that experience. So that was an Iowa most students were good about that. But there was a few that just, they just want to dominate the conversation. And I wasn't, I wasn't thrilled about that. But we you know, overall, though, it was still a positive experience, because I got out of it, the fundamentals that I felt that I needed to grow, and it wasn't just how to paint but how the, how the art world works in that realm of representational art. It there is, there's a way it works, you know, you just got to learn how the same it was with software, I just had to learn the circles that were you know, people were in and things like that you just have to learn how that world works a little bit then see if you can insinuate yourself into that world ethically. And you know, not without being a jerk about it. So it's Matthew Dols 24:21 Yeah, right, which is sort of the the leader question that comes out of this is like so so now you've learned some skills and and craftsmanship as far as producing works, but then they had it, you know, what methodology Are you using to get your work that you produce in front of the right collectors, buyers, curators, however, what's the the fate because keep in mind, I'm in Europe now. And I was in the Middle East before I was here. And so I haven't even been in the United States in almost a decade. And even back then I was I didn't know enough. And so like, you're literally my first US conversation. I've been talking to nothing but Europeans and Brazilians and Saudi Arabians. Well, yes, yeah. Carl Olsen 25:07 So you're in the crucible of art of civilization and art. You're in a beautiful, I feel very lucky. Yes, yeah. But as far as my ex, they're, they're far more experienced and more successful people than I, but here's, here's where I am in my journey meeting, I'm in a journey like you, you're trying to figure it out, I'm trying to figure it out. And one thing I learned in my business, and I never was a great business, man, because I didn't like the business side of things so much, but I did like that even in business and marketing, there's creativity, you know, so I would try to look at it that way. I thought, well, the there's a, there's a saying here in the United States, that, that it can be taken negatively. Or, in fact, most people do take it negatively, they'll, they'll, they'll see someone have success, or get business where they get the job. And then they say, well, it's all in who you know. And I like to turn that around and say, yeah, it's it's all in who you know, where people were social animals, we people buy from people they like, so if you've, if you're negative all the time, then people don't like you, they're not gonna buy from you, they're not gonna do business with you unless you have something that they just can't live without, and who wants to live that kind of life. I want people to, you know, I want to get along with people and have fun with them. And, you know, I'm not going to please everybody, but you do have to do what you can to connect with people. And so, yeah, so So the way you know, I transitioned my business from being pure software to content creation, video production, and all of that was getting the word out. And the way I did that back in, I did a shift in 2010. I started a podcast about photography and filmmaking, that didn't know much about photography and filmmaking. But I figured, wow, this is a great way to, to learn, I would invite guests that were experts. It would like a mini audio workshop, and they were happy to support it. My production values were absolutely horrible. My interview technique was absolutely terrible. But I still got good feedback. If people yeah, they loved it. Matthew Dols 27:28 And you know what happened? Yeah, you're you're up to like, 250 of those. Yeah, Carl Olsen 27:33 I haven't got large now. I haven't, I probably should start it up again, because it still gets. It's getting between 10 and 15,000 downloads a month doing nothing. I need to do something with it. But I don't have the interest in that right now. Matthew Dols 27:49 Yeah, you've got to be Yeah, I mean, that's one thing. Like, people ask me, like, why did I make the idea of a podcast? And I'm like, because I actually want to know, you Carl Olsen 28:00 know, that's a noble reason. And, and people will benefit from what you're doing. Matthew Dols 28:07 What you're sharing, I know of people that have already benefited from this podcast, because I know of artists that have connected with galleries and curators because of the podcast. So yeah, it actually is working. And I've even gotten some a couple opportunities of exhibiting from the people that I've met and made contacts with so I mean, it does all go back to who you know, and being being not necessarily being like, yeah, you're not you're not being a shot, but that schmoozer, you know, person. No schmoozing? No, I mean, these is like, people keep talking about like, oh, the art world is all who you know, and that is absolutely true. It really is. But But nobody in the art world, much like nobody in business wants to feel like they're being you right, or manipulated or anything like that. So like, as long as whatever technique or way that you talk to people or engage with people is sincere and honest, people will respond to that. Carl Olsen 29:03 Exactly. And see, that's what happened that what, that's what happened with the photography podcast, I made connections with people. So there were things that happened behind the scenes. I didn't make any money off that podcast, I you know, I had sponsorships and things like that, you know, it was just enough to cover the hosting and producing the show, but the real value, you aren't a good business person. Matthew Dols 29:26 You should be able to get that. Carl Olsen 29:28 But what I want is the things that happen behind the scenes like you were mentioned. You know, I want to be I would like to I like to display I'd like to work on interesting projects. You know, one of the things that I one of the big connections that I made with the podcast on photography was I talked to this guy. His name is Israel Hyman. And back in the late 2000s. He started selling video courses, how to do video. Very basic and He was one of the first and one of the few resources available on how to do videos, I got one of those jobs where they said, Can you do this? They didn't ask me how do you know how to do it? So I got the job. And the next thing I know is okay, now I got to figure it out. And I found his course. And I took it. And that's why a couple years later, I had him on the show, because because he had benefited me in that online education. He was an early pioneer of it. And so I was interested in that. And I had him on the show as a guest. And he, he turned the cards on me, he he became the interviewer. He's a Carl, what are you doing right now with video, I told him what I was doing. He says, oh, I've got an idea for you. Here's what you ought to do. And, you know, it was a good idea. And I said, Wow, thank you, I'll do that I immediately put it into, into into practice, I teamed up on a revenue share project with a local training company was a friend of mine, but I just reached out to him said, Hey, I got an idea for you. For you know, teaching water damage remediation. And it was, you know, it took him a couple of months to buy into it. But he did. And so I did it at no cost to him. I just did it as a revenue share. I said, if we sell, we'll do it. So I made far more money doing that than having sponsors on my podcast. You know, Matthew Dols 31:28 yeah, I mean, that that's one of the things that I keep thinking about is like, being in the creative fields is often not, it's not the sort of the core, the fundamental thing that you do. It's the tertiary things that come from the people and connections and experiences that you have, or, or new technologies that you learn or new opportunities that are given to you. It's very rarely do creative people like work in a street. Exactly. Carl Olsen 31:55 I think of the old family circus cartoon by Bill Davis. A Little Billy is asked to go to the mailbox. And where does he go? He hops and export all Yeah, Matthew Dols 32:07 all around the yard. And all up in the tree. I remember. That's my life. That's my life. I'm more of a force. I love force. Yeah, Carl Olsen 32:20 that's good. But let's see the reason see, is like hiking through the woods. There's two types of hikers, there's the one that does it for physical exercise. And then there are the explorers and see I'm the Explorer. When I go hiking, I'm distracted by the butterfly, I'm distracted by the little snail going up the tree and I'm distracted by the the orange lichen on the bark of a tree, I want to see and explore and see what I can discover. And I think if you have that kind of mindset in your business, even in the most boring soul sucking job that you could have, find a way to be creative with that. And it may lead in an unexpected direction, even in difficult economic times, are even in a pandemic. Matthew Dols 33:05 Yeah, try not trying to stay away from that topic. Because it's such an unknown, it is an unknown, but Carl Olsen 33:11 the artists that are making it right now, if you could use that word making it are the ones that embraced online training, online websites, online marketing, those guys are still there doing you know, it's not great, but they're doing okay, you know, there's they're surviving, they've got, because what are people doing when they're at home? Some want to learn things, or they're taking online classes. So those that that did the online classes, they're able to sell them now they're able to, and they're seeing an uptick in sales because of that. Who would have ever thought that would Matthew Dols 33:48 happen? Are you what avenues Are you using for getting your artwork out? I mean, you used to build software and Web Designs and stuff so are you promoting through the internet? Are you using social medias? Or do you have a you know, a really robust website for people to purchase through e commerce and all this like what are what are your ways to do? Yeah. Physician heal thyself, right? No, I I actually Yes, the car The car. There's kids with no shoe. Yeah, I can I can preach it, but I don't do it as well as I ought to. I, I teach web design also. Yeah, Carl Olsen 34:25 well, right now I'm in a process. I'm using some of this. I was supposed to have downtime, but I want to redo my website. I took all my I did have all my paintings on the website. If you would go to Carl's dot tv right now. You won't see any of the paintings there. Right now. Matthew Dols 34:42 I thought I saw like three. Carl Olsen 34:44 Still like yeah, you're not gonna find they're not they're not all that good. Anyway, so I'm in the process of revamping my websites. I'm been on Squarespace for quite some time and I've gotten frustrated of late and so I'm looking at different avenues. I was gonna say Matthew Dols 35:00 I'm not a fan of Squarespace. Nothing No, I don't I every time I do it, every time I do a podcast, I end up like offending some potential sponsor. I've made fun of it. Good for you. Oh my god so bad with Squarespace will never sponsor me. They will never stop. I mean, I've got on their bad side two years ago. I, I have seen their websites and they are they are aesthetically pleasing. And they look like they're easy to use, I do not question the technical savvy that they have behind the website, my personal pet peeve, it goes back to the idea that they, when you first register with them, you have to register the domain name through them. And then they basically own the domain name and you lease it from them. So if you ever want to leave them, you have to get a new domain name. You can't take that Carl Olsen 35:56 no, yeah, that's that they do want you to buy the domain through them because they add a premium to the domain price. But you don't have to do that. To start a yes, to start a trial, you just put your name and email and it's it's but they do the kind of send you down that path like they want you to get that domain name. All you got to do is type in the domain name you already have. I would never use their domains. I did experiment with it because I was wondering how it would work. And it did not like it. It was expensive. There's much better name servers out there. Then Then Squarespace and Matthew Dols 36:33 I've been using GoDaddy and WordPress for 15 years and very happy with it no big problems. GoDaddy has been great with with customer service with me. And I see the basis they haven't done anything to upset me so I really haven't tried anything else. Yeah, Carl Olsen 36:49 well that's what I'm looking at doing is going back to WordPress, I used to be a WordPress guy, my company did a lot of WordPress sites. I just didn't do it for myself. But I'm I'm looking at the possibility of doing that the they've really have come a long ways. And there's so many options like I'll run into a roadblock with with Squarespace like look and my store I sell these handmade sketchbooks that I make. I sell use books or selling my art and I think about that as three different products. And probably doesn't make a lot of sense to have those three, but that's what I wanted. And I would sell those things, but there's no flexibility with shipping options. Or, you know, sales tax, you've got to do all of that. yourself. And I NC I'm a software does. I was a software developer 35 years I subscribe to Alan Cooper's. The inmates are running the asylum Steve crew, don't make me think Alan Cooper would say the computer is supposed to do the hard stuff. And this is what I demanded out of my team. is is because a lot of developers have a complete and utter disdain for the user. And it's just, it's just I don't know, I don't know why that is. It's just that mindset is, well, they're too dumb to use a computer. They shouldn't be on there. And I I don't know how many people I fired over the years. Matthew Dols 38:19 I remember these kinds of people. Yeah, I knew many of these kinds of people. Yeah. And I'm sorry, I went down. That's not real on software. Because I Carl Olsen 38:31 love software design, just off Squarespace was one. But what I think happens, I think it's important for an artist to do it. And I like the idea of Squarespace. And they did do a lot of things, right. But there's no but you do, you will outgrow it very, very quickly. But some of the things they do, right, that make it easy for artists, if that's what they want to use, I like their email and they get their email campaign integration right there the analytics built in, right there. It is fairly simple to set up a simple ecommerce store. So if you sell one type of thing is great. Matthew Dols 39:06 And it's a great portfolio. Software, like just if you if that's all you want, just literally just show what you make. It's Carl Olsen 39:14 let's say you and I were software guys are designers. So we're going to view it a little differently. It's kind of like an artist that goes into a museum. We don't view the art, really the same way that someone off the street would view that art. Our experience is a little different, even though we might still make or can't watch a movie. dispassionately, Matthew Dols 39:36 you know, I hate watching films with films you can't because it goes because they're always like, other lighting here and the sound of sound they levels and they get too technical like so this, you know, sometimes too much technical knowledge it does. There's a pure appreciation then what happens is you know, Carl Olsen 39:58 we cannot makes it hard for us to be good marketers, because we base our persona of who we're selling to, on ourselves. I'm not the guy that's buying my art. I'm not the guy that was buying my software services. You know, there's a lot of things I'd have to fight in my mind. Well, I wouldn't do that. But no, no, no, I'm not that person, you know. So you have to be empathetic about who, who's interested in what you have to offer to them. And that's hard for us to do. It's really hard to separate yourself from that. Matthew Dols 40:30 Especially when it comes to making your own art. Because you're, you're invested in it, you have an emotional attachment to it, it was an experience of your life at time and energy. And then to try and put a quantifiable value on it and sort of displace it from all that is very difficult to do. And I mean, that comes to your another question that was I asked him was everybody's like, so how do you come up with prices for selling your artwork? Carl Olsen 40:58 So because I'm in the very beginning stages i i priced low? I, you know, I'm, I think a mistake beginning artists will do, they'll do a nine by 12 painting and try to sell it for $2,000. And that's just, that's just a mistake, though, yeah, it's absurd. I did a show. About two years ago was the first one I did. So the way I've been doing this, I started, I talked to a lot of artists on my podcast, and then I talked to them privately. And they're very helpful. So one of the big suggestions I got was, you know, just start locally, just, it's a slow process, you're not going to get instant gratification. But you will get a feeling of how people react to your art, you're not going to know until you put it out there. And putting out on Instagram feed is not the same as putting it in a in a in a cafe where people are sitting there eating a meal under your painting, and they look at it and then decide, you know what, I want to buy that. It's a little bit of a different experience. So I took that advice. So the very first thing I did, the first time I ever publicly showed my work is I supported a local show here in Douglasville, where I live, it was called the taste of Douglasville had nothing to do with art had to do with food, hungry people with money. And they wanted other vendors in there. I said, Great. $75 I can do that. So I brought everything right. Oh, my goodness. And so I found out what people liked and what people would buy. Now that's an that's not the same as a gallery. So don't get me wrong. It's not a it's not a gallery situate, you know, you're not the pricing. Yeah, Matthew Dols 42:45 it's not, it's not going to be years ago, I actually created a an affordable Art Fair kind of a thing, basically, where hundreds of artists could come and get a booth and everything was for sale was under one dollars. And we could This was 15 years ago now. So maybe would be higher now. But, you know, a low priced by reputable artists. And then therefore, the idea was to try and start those careers going the I the idea is that artists need the opportunity for somebody to buy a lesser priced piece, let's say so that they start appreciating your work and appreciating owning original artwork so that as they get older, and they have more money, and they have more space in their home, that their desire for original art and potentially even your original art being grows with you kind of thing. So the the idea that occur and artists careers is a long term thing is very important for Carl Olsen 43:44 me. So I agree with you. And Matthew Dols 43:48 it's tough. Well, Carl Olsen 43:51 you know, if you're going to be a concert violinist is going to take you some time to get there, right? Even you're going to be busking on the street with a guitar, you got to play good enough that somebody puts coins in your in your guitar case, Matthew Dols 44:04 it just takes time, we'll see. And the thing is, is that there are some people in the world that have that immediate stardom that that young sort of you will call like YouTubers and Instagram influencers and things like this at this point, that basically get it very young and very good. And they and that's people that are in the arts need to understand that like the idea of an art career is not not an art career. We'll build slowly over time and it will be connections and expanding like the idea you were talking about of starting locally and then those local people are going to start having friends that are somewhere else and they're going to talk to them and then then your your market is going to expand and all this kind of stuff like it just takes time. And it is so true. See, Carl Olsen 44:53 so what what happened from that experience was I got email addresses so they they signed up on my email list, I think it's important to create an email list get permission from people to create an email list. Matthew Dols 45:07 Do you do that? Carl Olsen 45:09 It's how often do you send out emails? Probably about once a month, maybe twice a month, or every time I have a new episode of, of the podcasts. So that might happen three times a month is about the frequency that I have. And yeah, it's and I get a lot of feedback, because I encourage people to reply back. Yeah, he got a question, got feedback. And that gives me I'm jumping ahead, but it gives me additional content for my shows. Because you know, people will make a comment, people love, I read the story years ago, about newspaper, it was newspaper somewhere in the Midwest, I think. And the the publisher was doing extremely well with subscriptions. And the reason was, is he mentioned people's names in the local community. And I thought, I found that that's been highly effective in building my podcast audience, both in the camera one, photography, one, and arval painting, people love to hear the names, and I like sharing their names. And one of the things I try to encourage the dude, if they do send feedback, please include your link, I might share you, you know, I'll share your website. And that most people don't do that. But I get a few. And sometimes, sometimes they're pretty good. And I'm happy to share that I can see where they, you know, they're, they're beginning their journey to along with me, and, and it's fun to share their names and, and to get the feedback. And they're always so appreciative. And I love that I love being able to give people something. And that's something I can give, I don't have to ask for any money or any, I just give it and there they go. And it just brings me a great deal of pleasure to see them benefit in some small way from that. But back to the first art fair that I did. I don't do those. Too much rain. Oh, yeah, Matthew Dols 47:07 there is a point where you have to grow. Carl Olsen 47:09 But it was a grand experiment. And it was amazing, because I got to talk to people, you know, they would come up to the booth. They might not buy something, but they'd look at something you could watch them and say, Okay, why are they? And after a while, if I can strike up a conversation with someone, what do you like about that? And they will tell me what they see. And what they this was, this was fantastic insight, because, you know, an artist market research? Well, you know, Yeah, it is. But you do want to know, how is your art. I mean, as artists, we also, we try to raise ourselves above the business fray a little bit we want. There's the emotional side of it. And and I wanted to get that kind of information as well. And it was just amazing to hear people's stories. I had this one guy, he came up. I had this painting I did price for $200. wasn't much, in my opinion, but it wasn't. He was moved by the art. Let me put it that way. Okay. And Matthew Dols 48:18 that's always worked, Carl Olsen 48:18 right. And it, it surprised me because it was a piece that I didn't think would sell. I mean, I just I couldn't see why anybody, I but I took everything that I had, that I could sell. And that was the surprising thing about this whole thing with what people bought, were things that I did not think would sell why my wife tease me about one piece because there was a piece I had I absolutely hated. And she made me put it in the exhibit. And I want you to know that painting sold. Oh, wow. Matthew Dols 48:49 It happens to me every time like I will have an exhibit and there'll be these pieces that I love. And I'm like, Oh my god, I'm so attached to this and nobody Exactly. And then there'll be pieces that are put in them. Like, you know, I've got some space, I'll just put in this piece of shit that I made just to fill up a wall. And everybody looks amazing. Yeah, no, I feel you on that. It's just it's, but it's it, you got to go through that process. You'll Carl Olsen 49:11 never know until you do it. You got to show your work. You got to put your ego at the door, check. You know, just don't worry about your ego. it'll, it'll heal in time. But this guy that came up, he was looking at this painting and I had a $200 price tag on there, which was really too high for art fair like that. But, you know, I, I figured, let me just see what I can do. And I could tell this guy was he, he just kept coming back and looking at it. His hands were callused had oil on them. And I could tell he must be a mechanic or you know, works with his hands and I asked him what he did. Indeed this what he was he was a mechanic and he's I said what is it about that painting you like and he proceeds to tell me the story. You know, it just makes him happy. He just needs happiness. And it just, it just makes him happy to look at it. And he says, but he opens up his wallet. He's got $50 in his wallet. And that's all he's got. And I said, that's a deal. I gave it to him for $50. I, you know, it made him happy. And it made me happy to see him happy. And I got $50 it covered. You know, that's you're not going to you're not going to make a living off of that. But it's a start. And, and I was just really happy to see that happen. But what happened is one of the members, the chairman of the cultural Art Center, near where I live, she came by and she says, Hey, would you mind doing an exhibit for us? And I said, Sure. And the paintings would be available for sale. And then there was the, there was a local museum that does local history. And so they invited me to a juried show and as the first one I ever entered in, and I just played there and doing those local shows was helpful. And I sold it every single one of them. And the other thing is, so my most recent invite was to the booth booth Museum, they have a booth artists Guild, and it's a juried show. So it's the first formal, I mentioned the juried show before it's juried. But it's not you know, it's local art. It's and I'm not trying to put local art Yeah, it's just not the same level is, is something like, there are levels. Are there truly Sure. You know, when I started an art, I was in naive art. Okay, I you know, it's okay, but I was there. Exactly. Nothing wrong with it. I love Bob Ross. And I tried to paint like, but I but as I grew in taste, and I never did. I guess it's, I have to confess everything I do. So yeah, I did do the Bob Ross thing. And it was Matthew Dols 52:05 no, but I was a photographer Carl Olsen 52:06 I was I was not a painter. I was too. But you know, I wanted to learn how to paint. And that's what I saw is what I liked the way he talked to us. But it wasn't the way I wanted to paint. See, I'd go to the museums and things like that and books. And I realized No, no, no, this is this is this is a formulaic style of painting people like it, it makes them happy. And I'm I'm good with that. But it wasn't what I wanted to do. Bob Ross is not Thomas Moran, or coal or bierstadt, or, you know, your contemporary artists. That is not the same thing. And that's what I wanted to do. And so but it was a step in my my journey of learning. But now I've been invited to a juried shows my first one, will it What will it turn into? I do not know. But it's exciting. It's exciting. We'll see where it goes course, this thing that we don't like to talk about that's happening right now. It's kind of put a damper on things, you know, but I'm proceeding as if, okay, maybe it will happen. And we'll see what happens. Yeah. But the podcast, too, has been good, because it's connected me with people, as well. Matthew Dols 53:18 Well, that's what I was gonna ask you is like, so what, what are some of the things that you've gained, that you couldn't have gained otherwise, through the act of being a podcaster? about photography and the art Carl Olsen 53:28 world? Well, it's being part of a community of people that I normally wouldn't have access to. Their friends, they become friends, they contact me, call me. It's amazing to be called by somebody. And hey, Carl, check this out. And so there's that kumbhak camaraderie, and it goes back to what I was talking about before is, it is all in who you know. And when they become your friends, and you're a genuine friend to them. It can lead to future op opportunities. I'm very early in my career. I haven't I'm not represented in a gallery yet, or something like that. But we'll see. We'll see where it goes. You got to start somewhere. And you got to be positive about it. You do? Matthew Dols 54:15 Indeed, yes. Carl Olsen 54:17 I hope that's been helpful. I'm not as far along as a lot of these guys are. Matthew Dols 54:22 I have a, I don't know, probably a long career at this point to many people, like I mean, I started making art back in 2000, sort of professionally, so we have about 20 years. But in that I made a series of what I would call sort of strategic mistakes, which was that I, I kept moving. I kept leaving and going somewhere new. So over the course of that time, I moved from San Francisco to North Carolina to Ohio to Abu Dhabi to Prague, and as I kept leaving, and part of it is is that people and when you do large moves like That it's very difficult to keep in touch and keep good relations, strong relationships with people in order to build your career. And like one of the things that I feel that I've learned is that part of being an all creative person is you need to build your networks. And part of that is to sort of not that you have to stay in one place, but maybe have a place that your home base that you can sort of come back to that becomes your foundation for your network, this grows out. And I made that mistake by moving too much and not staying in touch with enough people and creating those bigger, broader networks that are new. Look Carl Olsen 55:38 what you're doing, man, you're, you're you're connecting. I mean, who would a dream two weeks ago that you and I would be talking, I didn't even know you. And now I know you've got a great podcast. It's, it's this is incredible that you and I can talk you're in Prague, and here I am in the Atlanta, Georgia area. And see that's the same with me. I'm not in a place that's typically known as an art market. There's people here that appreciate art. Matthew Dols 56:06 Oh, there's a lot of good in Atlanta, and Athens. Very good, well known art place, but Carl Olsen 56:13 it's not is not is not New York, it's not California, it is not Sedona is not any Santa Fe is not on that level, but still. I have connections with artists all over the United States as a result of doing what you're doing. And I think you've got Matthew Dols 56:31 that. And that's one of the things. Yeah, well, that's one of the things I've started to learn also is that I feel like basically people have this idea that where you live should be your mark. So like you're a painter, you paint in Atlanta, and, and people would think that you sell in Atlanta, but like, and I live in Prague, and people would think that people would buy my work and he's been in Prague. And that's absolutely not true. Like oftentimes your best market is not where Yeah, Carl Olsen 56:59 yeah, exactly. I agree. And you know, you could, if I lived in the coast of Florida, it's true that, you know, tourists that go there they want the type of paintings will probably reflect their vacation experience. I get that. I've talked to an artist not too long ago on my podcast, his name is Bill Farnsworth, and he lives in Florida. So naturally his his type of coastal scenes appeal to people who go to Florida. And of course, Florida has a robust art market. You do it's helpful to sell what I am. Yeah, Miami. Matthew Dols 57:40 Definitely. Carl Olsen 57:42 Oh, they got bought, of course. A friend of mine just went to a he he lives in the beautiful island of Samos Greece. And but he he commutes from Sam owes him and his wife to Florida they teach they have an art classes in in Tampa and then they exhibit his work he's a he's a contemporary artist he exhibits his work at Basel as well and it sells I mean it appeals you go to where you know people are going to buy it and that's in his type of art it sells in a place like that it's beneficial to go even though it's kind of expensive to go Matthew Dols 58:26 yeah art fairs are non gene to participate in like they're quite expensive Carl Olsen 58:29 i'm not i'm not at that level I don't it's not not worth it's not in my wheelhouse at this point. Matthew Dols 58:35 I have no interest in participating as an artist I will go with the gallery wants to take me and they want to pay there Carl Olsen 58:41 you go Matthew Dols 58:44 I'm not doing it myself during their keep right and there's a certain amount of prestige that comes with like a gallery bringing you to an art fair versus you doing it yourself like there's just a little different I Carl Olsen 58:58 think in time that it will change though because I mean think about how artists are selling today a lot of artists are selling exclusively online or they're they have their own galleries Matthew Dols 59:10 it's are they selling online some some art because I hear mixed I hear mixed things about like online sales you know, I hear stuff from artsy and art net and all those places always telling me Oh online sales are going through the roof millions of dollars a year and and then I actually go talk to artists and they're like, No, I haven't sold online. Carl Olsen 59:30 Yeah, I I imagine that's true. But I do know that there are artists that are there. They're doing okay. And they use they are they are these yellow Matthew Dols 59:39 when you like, Where are they? What do they sell? I don't understand this. Carl Olsen 59:44 Well see, look at how it's selling here in the United States. So this is how the market was working before the big p word. Okay. So a lot of new artists and existing artists. What they did is, plein air painting became this huge thing. Here almost became like a social club of some sort. But people enjoy them and and guess what they buy art? It's, you know, it became a big thing. I, I know, several guests that I've had that's it make a significant amount of their income from doing the planer events. I don't know that I could sustain that lifestyle doesn't appeal to me to be on the road all the time doing that sort of thing. But that's one of the ways that they sell course they've all been decimated, our Armstead just announced that they they're having to not do their event, the plant the the big plenary that Eric Rhodes does, in Denver is rescheduled and being moved to a different location. So a lot of these events are hurting people right now. But that that was one primary way that people do sell is through that. Another way that artists sell. I learned this from the workshops. It was the most amazing thing I ever saw. I it was a complete and total surprise. Matt Smith bought brought several of his little number 12 paintings. He sold virtually every one of them. Matthew Dols 1:01:20 Nine by 12 inches, by the way, because law that's right. Carl Olsen 1:01:23 United States is so behind when it comes to the metric system is so good. I wish we were metric two, it'd be so much easier. But Matthew Dols 1:01:31 because I'm sitting there I'm like nine by 12 centimeters Carl Olsen 1:01:33 really tidy. Matthew Dols 1:01:36 Nine by 12. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for my Carl Olsen 1:01:40 I should see what happened. I was like, if I were to tell you it's it's going to be a high of 80 sevens a day. That would just be everybody be melting in Prague, right? Yeah, Matthew Dols 1:01:51 I have no idea what that means anymore. I can't do the conversion. I mean, because I as I said I was living in the Midwest and stuff. So I've been I've been living in centimeter or centigrade for almost 10 years now. So like, I don't even understand the translations anymore. Carl Olsen 1:02:08 I know at seventh lovely, it's it's it's too hot for me for here. It's this time of year. It's not right. Matthew Dols 1:02:16 It does seem a bit warm for this time of year. Carl Olsen 1:02:18 It's just not right. Yeah. But anyway, we take what we get because we have no control over it. And so yeah, I forgot where I was good. So the planner is one way I do know, a friend of mine. He has a gallery Nuenen. A lot of the paintings are sold in that gallery. And they'll develop a network of collectors. So the collectors will oftentimes by do repeat sales. I was interesting. I visited a woman that's in that area. And she is a great art collector. And it's just it's amazing who you never know who collects. And Matthew Dols 1:03:00 I knew this lady in Ohio in very, very rural Ohio, like middle of nowhere. And I went into her house one day, she was like, oh, I've got this like little art collection of stuff. And you should come see my art and I'm like, Oh, sure. Yeah, okay, whatever. And so I go over to her house. Her house is literally covered from floor to ceiling, every drawer, every shelf, every everything amazing a piece of art that she has collected over 40 years. I mean, none of it was very expensive pieces individually. But then when you see the sheer volume of work, I mean, it's kind of like she was an art hoarder by me was literally everywhere in the house. And some of it was absolutely magnificent. Not all of it, but the sheer volume of it was just overwhelming. I loved it. I thought it was quite fascinating. Well, Carl Olsen 1:03:49 I talked to pastel us pastel artist. Her name is Victoria Taylor Gore. She's, she was she was a professor for many years and still teaches. She was a dean at her college and for the liberal arts and she had great success with with the galleries up until the time that the podcast was published. I don't know how it's doing right now. I was contacted by one of her collectors, they heard her episode and they were just floored. I said, Wow, you because she's a relatively unknown artist. But they loved her. They they sent me this email, I bought all these pieces and then they don't tell me about these other people that they buy. So you just you have to work hard to make those kind of connections, you're going to find your raving fan somewhere. And you know, it's there's, there's there's a measure of success. This is not an easy business. I will never make the money I don't think that I ever made as a software developer. I didn't enter getting into art for the sole purpose of Making money. I'd like for it to pay for itself. It's kind of a reward. You know, it's kind of like, yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. Somebody liked my art enough that they wanted to buy to buy it. Matthew Dols 1:05:14 That's the greatest thing for me. I always say the, the thing that you're great accolades, nice reviews, you know, whatever, all these opinions, they're all fine and good. And I like those. And we all like those, they help our egos. But the best thing anybody can do is literally buy your art basically and say, I want this art to be in my life. Exactly. That's a really fabulous fee, they're Carl Olsen 1:05:37 gonna have a relationship with it's gonna hang on your wall, you know, it's great. Matthew Dols 1:05:43 It's gonna become part of their house further, their children's lives, their grandchildren's lives. I mean, I grew up with a really interesting art around me. And so like, there's all these great pieces now that my parents had collected over the years that I'm now. Like, I have this incredible fondness towards these pieces of art. Oh, wow. Carl Olsen 1:06:03 That's quite a legacy. Yeah, it's nice. See, growing up, I was dirt poor. I was in a very blue collar family that had no money. I didn't know it at the time. I you know, you kind of like the frog. And Matthew Dols 1:06:15 I was just, we were not well, well, I wouldn't try to put you down like that. But no, no, no, my father's a minute. Yeah, like, we did not have a lot of money. Carl Olsen 1:06:24 But they appreciate us if we didn't have that my house say there was just where I was going with that is we didn't have it. And so it's even a wonder that I that I got interested in it. Because I think a lot of the things that you you experienced in your childhood does have a bearing on how your appreciation for these things grow. And, and I admit, you know, growing up, and I look back in my teenage years, a lot of naivety a lot of things I just didn't know, or didn't know that I'd even be interested in so No, and I hope no one takes it. I wasn't trying to imply that if you if you weren't in poverty, you're you're subhuman. That's not it at all. Not at all. Matthew Dols 1:07:08 I just wanted to clarify like cuz I made it sound kind of snobby. Like I grew up around. Okay, we Carl Olsen 1:07:14 we've, we've we've had a little equilibrium there. We Got it. Got it lined up. That's good. Yeah, yeah, Matthew Dols 1:07:21 I'm not that much of a snob. Maybe a little bit of a snob. I am, I am a bit of a fine arts. I will admit it. But that's, that's my own issue. It's a fun one to have, isn't it? Some people love it. Some people don't. You know, it just depends people in the art world generally appreciated the respected people outside of the art world, just think I'm, Carl Olsen 1:07:47 I get I get feedback from someone one time, they said, they were talking about my guests. They really liked some of the guests. But there was a couple of them they didn't like. And I thought, well, they they didn't like their opinions about something. And I just said, Well, here's, here's the way I look at it. We're all just as opinionated as anybody else in human society. And I like hearing those opinions. And I think they have something good to offer. If you don't like what they say it's okay. You don't have to do it. But I'm not going to start discriminating my guests based on whether or not you think they're, you know, opinionated or not. I you know, people who have strong opinions a lot of times have they put a lot of thought into why they feel the way they do. I'm not saying that they're always rights. And see, that's my opinion. Right and I but I I've taken I've I've had friends who are artists who absolutely hate abstract art in modern art, they absolutely hate it. And they they're they're not shy about showing their prejudice against it doesn't mean they're bad people. It doesn't mean they're bad artists, I love their art. I happen to like, contemporary art. I happen to like modern art. I like abstract art as much as I do the representational art. So you know, there's a place for it. But people have strong opinions and artists do too. And, you know, I can only control what I do, and what I think. And I'm not going to change anyone's minds. If someone wants to know my opinion on something. I'm happy to share it. But I can only control myself. I can only control the way I think. Sometimes I do tend toward and you know, negativity, my own thoughts and, and I really work hard to root those things out. I think people can change. I've heard the expression used a lot of times, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. And I always say, well, we're not dogs. We're humans. We can learn things. If we want to. We can change behavior. We can change the way we view people. One of the things My father with his I had a man come up to me a couple years ago and he was very agitated. And he looked at me and he says, What did your father teach you? So bear in mind, here I am a white guy. It was a black man that came up to me. And it unsettled me when he did that, because people really truly have gone through horrible things with prejudice and racism and that sort of thing. And as home, gosh, how am I going to answer this, but I did you know, what I did is I, I turned to a Bible verse that my father used was at Philippians, chapter two, verse three and four, it says, consider others, superior to yourself. And so that's what I told him. I said, I thank you for asking me, no one's ever asked me this question before. And I read that to him. He says, Do you really believe that about me? And I said, Yes, that's what my dad taught me. And we went on to have a nice conversation. But all I can do is change the way I feel. And the way I view other people. I can talk about it until I'm blue in the face. I can, I can't change other people, but I can change how I view people. And that's what I've endeavored to do. In my adult life, however, and perfectly that is, I don't know if that had anything to do with art or, or what? This is the beauty of being an old guy. just ramble. I tell my kids, I'm at that age where I can tell the same story over and over every day and never get bored. You might but I don't. So there. That's right, because you Matthew Dols 1:11:40 don't remember it. Yeah, my my mother's at the same point in her life. Yes. You love her anyway, okay. She's very entertaining in her forgetfulness. It's very interesting. Yes, we get to have the same conversation every day. It's lovely. Carl Olsen 1:11:57 All right. Well, thank you very much for your time. My pleasure. I really appreciate you asking, I appreciate what you're doing. This is having a podcast like this. We need we need more of them, and your voice is a valuable part of that. Matthew Dols 1:12:12 Thank you all for your support of the wise fool Patreon account. If you've not become part of our network. By becoming a part supporter, you receive the opportunity to help in the choosing of upcoming guests, cities that I should visit and also you can give me questions that you'd like me to ask future guests. You can find us and support us at patreon pa t ar e o n.com slash the wise fool all one word. If you enjoy the podcast, I would appreciate a five star rating and Please tell your friends to listen and subscribe. Also, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. One of my many weaknesses that has become glaringly obvious to me through my insights from my guess is that my lack of professionalism in the business practices when it comes to my personal artwork, so I become putting my work on sale on Saatchi art.com. You can find my artwork available for purchase at Saatchi art s a t ch AI ar t.com slash Matthew Dols ma TT h e w DLLs. Thank you. The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols - www.matthewdols.com All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com