Transcript for Episode 006 – Gallerist, Katherine Kastner, Hunt Kastner (Prague, CZ)

 

Published August 8, 2019

Full recording here: https://wisefoolpod.com/contemporary-fine-art-podcast-with-gallerist-katherine-kastner-hunt-kastner-prague-cz/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

Matthew Dols 0:12
Please pronounce your name correctly.

Kacha Kastner 0:14
Kacha Kastner

Matthew Dols 0:15
Great.

Kacha Kastner 0:16
That’s that by the way. That’s what I’m just so you know, that’s what I’m called catcher. But my real name is Katherine. And catcher is check for Katherine. Exactly. And I’ve been called that since a young girl.

Matthew Dols 0:28
Okay. And you’re so your background is you were born in the United States, but too I’m guessing to some sort of check.

Kacha Kastner 0:35
Family check American, my mother’s Czech.

Matthew Dols 0:37
Okay. Yeah. And so you came here when

Kacha Kastner 0:40
I came here in 1991, March 1991.

Matthew Dols 0:43
And when you got here so you Have you always been in the arts as your entire background, like your your education and everything. But wait, let’s go back one step because we actually have a connection of your childhood home. You grew up in Lexington, Virginia.

Kacha Kastner 0:59
I didn’t grow up in Lexington, Virginia. I my parents now Live in Lexington, Virginia. They’ve lived there for probably over 20 years. I live there longer than I’ve lived in the Czech Republic. So I guess they moved to early, late 80s. And I actually I was in high school on Long Island. And I was in elementary school in Maryland. And my father was a Navy pilot.

Matthew Dols 1:24
And so if your father was a Navy pilot, your mother was check.

Kacha Kastner 1:27
To check touch and but Funny enough, she ended up being a specialist teacher. Interesting. For English. I mean, I always say can you imagine if I ended up being a special ed teacher in Czech. That’s not going to happen. Now, my Czech isn’t ever going to Yeah, but she she ended up she got a master’s in special ed. But yes, she was teacher.

Matthew Dols 1:50
And so you background then you were not in studying art or art? Like that. What what kind of education did you have? Well,

Kacha Kastner 1:57
I said, Well, I studied economics. I did a double green economics in French.

Matthew Dols 2:02
Actually, the economics is not that far off

Kacha Kastner 2:04
economics you can use for every

Matthew Dols 2:07
economic business, anything economics is good to know. Then you came to the Czech Republic. And why did you say, you know what arts that’s what I should go into.

Kacha Kastner 2:16
I think it’s something I always had an interest in. And actually in my Czech background, the tour I have my connections, my family connections and personal connections. So I have family here in the Czech Republic. The ones I’m closest to her aunt and uncle Pablo Brasstown Vieira novikova. And they were both artists. And when I would come here, you know, when we would go to gatherings or whatever, we tend to be artists and people from the underground, which is a very arty crowd sounds like, yeah, so that’s, that’s why I knew. So when I came to the Czech Republic, it just was obvious that I would sort of gravitate towards the people that I knew. And I really liked, obviously, I mean, obviously, like the arts, and it was something else I really just want to become involved in because I really wanted to help them. So it was, you know, it was a partially it just seemed to me that that was kind of like an obvious thing in the Czech Republic. I mean, I guess, if I, when you were saying if I induction to Virginia, if I had grown up in Dickson, Virginia, and new side Trombley, really well, maybe I would have, you know, started off in an arts career. But as I said, it just seemed like an obvious thing coming to the Czech Republic is that that was I get involved in around the people that I knew,

Matthew Dols 3:23
there seems like they’re like, was a very much like a happening and like, I’m sort of an underground. Is that still going on? Is that? Or is that? Is that sort of? No. I mean, that was a certain time period was a very certain time. You know, that’s what pre Nine, eight I

Kacha Kastner 3:37
mean, or maybe there is underground, and I’m just, you know, I’ve aged out of it. I don’t know.

Matthew Dols 3:43
I’ve noticed like, your feels like you sort of age out of certain genres or something. But

Kacha Kastner 3:47
I mean, obviously, the underground of the 90s or the under, you know, the 80s was completely different. Because, I mean, that was political. You know, I mean, that was a completely different, you know, I mean, they were really, you know, you know, politically engaged in a an anti establishment anti communist and the whole thing. So, and now, you know, obviously, it’s a sort of different political climate.

Matthew Dols 4:09
Very different. Yeah.

Kacha Kastner 4:10
Having Having said that, there’s a lot of people out there also engaging in politics, and that’s also really important, but you know, they can do it a little bit more openly, I think. And so it’s a little bit broader base.

Matthew Dols 4:21
Oh, yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t have come here if it was still before that.

Kacha Kastner 4:26
But um, you know, there’s just so much I think it was also there’s just so much euphoria, post 1989. You know, there was just everywhere, you know, I mean, everybody was just so excited, you know, about the changes that that was also made it really exciting. And so a lot of things were happening, and there was a lot of, you know, things were being initiated and I said people were sort of really getting excited, especially about the arts and being able to show again and show openly and it was it was sort of a you know, and that was at the time that was also I guess the social thing, you know, because, you know, there wasn’t there weren’t all these you know, was in clubs and cinemas and restaurants and

Matthew Dols 5:01
a way to be friendly.

Kacha Kastner 5:03
Yeah, I mean, it was just that’s where you met you know, you met at openings or you met at concerts. So you.

Matthew Dols 5:08
So now you’ve had this gallery for how long? Exactly?

Kacha Kastner 5:11
I want to say 13 years, but we open in 2006. You do the math,

Matthew Dols 5:15
that’s 13 years to now you’re depending on time of year, but yeah, okay. And you primarily focus on the Czech and Slovak market or just Czech market? We are, I would represent,

Kacha Kastner 5:26
I would, I would say we’re Czech gallery. That’s what I say the word Czech gallery. We don’t we actually focus on the international market. But what I’m in that I mean, bringing Czech artists out to the international market, right. And also, but bringing international artists here and showing so you know, our program is mixed in half and half I would say we show Czech artists and then half International. But yes, we do. We represent the majority of the artists that we represent or the check because I said we’re sort of our main goal, or a primary goal we open the gallery was about getting Czech artists known sort of to a broader audience on an international scale.

Matthew Dols 6:03
So just to start trying to build this. Okay, so when you’re looking at your ad, let’s say the check mark, right, in general, all the artists that you see all the students coming out of school and so how do you decide this one’s worthy? Like, what’s the what’s the criteria when you start to look for them? Like are you looking for?

Kacha Kastner 6:19
I mean, I think tential I always feel like this is something that people always ask. Yeah, it’s the endless question. And I feel like it’s sometimes people just find it so mysterious in it. But I feel like it is

Matthew Dols 6:33
very unique and it because it’s subjective between the the gallery,

Kacha Kastner 6:36
but I don’t I don’t necessarily I mean, yes, I think some galleries unique, I mean, some people at some galleries have an account, maybe a specific focus was much more post conceptual. I might be, you know, obviously this galleries that deal in photography, or there’s galleries that deal Justin painting or something. But um, we’re just really looking for good artists, you know, we’re not that what’s that quantifiable thing? But I know, but I think it’s not that difficult. You know, and I think it’s very, I mean, I think it’s not so mysterious that, you know, we’re so clever that we are able to choose the good artists, it’s something that we don’t that we, I think it’s kind of also units that you see in films is that you go visit and artists in their studio that you’ve never met before that, you know, dropped a tray on you in the restaurant. And then you go and you discover that they’re the greatest thing, and you give them an exhibition, and they become famous, and

Matthew Dols 7:27
how many of your artists would die?

Kacha Kastner 7:29
Yeah, no, I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the movie, you know, that’s a fail. And that’s that’s not reality. That’s not reality. It’s same not reality, as all the movies about people living in New York have beautiful apartments, even though they’re all you know, working as a body stone or something.

Matthew Dols 7:46
With lots of wings.

Kacha Kastner 7:48
Yeah, that’s also not reality. It’s something that you really sort of like do our research, we do our homework. And we know our artists very well before we start to work with it.

Matthew Dols 7:58
And that’s something that like, when I was in undergrad, there was a guy George Hemphill Fine Arts marching in DC. He had this. It was a mythology. And I’m not sure if he did this or not. But this supposedly he would follow an artist for 10 years before he would even talk to them about potential exhibition or representation. Like that was it so you wanted to see that they were consistent, and they were continually growing and all this for 10 years before he would even talk? I mean,

Kacha Kastner 8:24
10 years, you know, I don’t have tenure. But it is, but it’s a very, it’s not something that just at a drop of a hat yourself, like just taking, you know, somebody out of you’ve seen one exhibition, you think I can see one exhibition, I think it’s the greatest exhibition I’ve seen that year. But it doesn’t mean that, you know, I would jump to represent that artists because I kind of feel like everybody can have one great exhibition. And you want to really see how the work progresses. So it’s, as I said, it’s like you do you do a lot of homework. What makes it I guess a little bit easy for us is that we’re in the Czech Republic. And because we do mainly work with artists in the Czech Republic, it’s not that we have to travel all over the world to follow the artists closely. So this is really sort of a luxury, I can say with being, you know, a read a country, sort of, you know, you have like Chinese galleries tend to work with Chinese artists, Polish guys of Polish or Russian galleries with Russia enters the New York galleries, or the London galleries, the Paris galleries that have a much more international platform. I mean, they have to, you know, I mean, as I said, they don’t have the opportunity to see necessarily the artists as you know, they go through their four years for six years of Academy and then see all the little shows they have and all the office spaces and as I said, we can do that. I mean, it’s not to say that it’s not a lot of work, but you know, you have to run around and can but we can do that and that’s what we do, you know, so it’s really there’s a lot of thought that goes into it. It’s not something as I said that it’s almost like you know, like are you gonna hire somebody, I guess for your firm in some way. inspection, I also look at their CV, you see where they showed, and you want to see what experience they have? And then if you think it’s a good fit, then then you might invite them to do you know, a training period, which saying one exhibition when Yeah,

Matthew Dols 10:14
that’s what you did you do sort of a probationary sort of representation.

Kacha Kastner 10:18
I mean, I want to say, it’s not really necessary. We don’t think of it that way. But you know, generally, we’ll say, we’ll have them in a group exhibition, or we’ll have them in a row, invite them for a solo exhibition. And then, you know, see how that works. And see if everybody’s happy, because it goes both ways. It’s not just about who we want, but it’s also you know, who wants to work with us? And that’s, you know, it’s not always mutual, necessarily.

Matthew Dols 10:38
Yeah. Have you had any sort of scenarios where like, you wanted somebody but they were, for whatever reason, either difficult to work with, or they didn’t want to work with you, or whatever that sort of

Kacha Kastner 10:46
Yeah, I mean, I think every I think every every Yeah, absolutely. I mean, particularly when we started, you know, when we started, I think there were quite a few people that really, we’re sort of skeptical, and rightly so. This this few artists, we we asked, and we saw what they and they were like, Well, I’m not really sure. I just we don’t ask that many artists to work with us now. Because as I said, we have pretty full roster. What is your roster right

Matthew Dols 11:09
now? How many?

Kacha Kastner 11:10
I think about 16.

Matthew Dols 11:13
More than I expected you?

Kacha Kastner 11:14
It seems it’s it’s more than it seems. I mean, people always kind of surprised,

Matthew Dols 11:17
I would have said you had probably 10

Kacha Kastner 11:20
more. Yeah. And so as I said, again, that that’s an issue that, you know, if we take on, we only have so much capacity, and so we take on another artists, and we have to be willing to put in the time when the effort and so it is we’re not, you know, mate, I don’t even know we’ve, I guess added like maybe once every two years of the past five years, I guess codehost Anna Laveau we added last year, and then maybe two years prior, prior to that was and a whole lot cheaper.

Matthew Dols 11:49
And that sort of begs a question that I’ve been wondering, which is when you bring on new artists, do you get rid of other artists? Like do you try to keep your numbers consistent as far as like the quantity because you only have so much time and energy to sort of advertise publicist work for

Kacha Kastner 12:04
No, I mean, we when we would never get rid of an artist, because we’re going to take on another one. Now, that mean, that would that would never be the case, I think we’ve only stopped working with one artist, and it was sort of mutual, and it was it was friendly. And it was sort of reached a point where we sort of both said that Well, okay, we’ve done as much as we can do together. And that’s

Matthew Dols 12:22
what I’m getting to is like, what’s the point where like, you don’t want to or need to work with an artist anymore? Like, is there that point? Yeah,

Kacha Kastner 12:29
there is. Absolutely there is. And as I said, it happened, it’s certainly been one case, and they said, and we’re still great friends. And it was I said it was it was a very amicable parting. And it’s hard. I mean, that is hard to sort of come to that reason and say, Listen, you know, I mean, it’s been great. But are we really, you know, doing anything for each other right now.

Matthew Dols 12:48
But did they go to something big? No, they didn’t. They didn’t

Kacha Kastner 12:51
want they just didn’t want to go? Right. Yeah. Okay.

Matthew Dols 12:54
Well, that’s fair. Yeah,

Kacha Kastner 12:55
yeah. So anyway, so as I said, Everyone always asked that question, I find it interesting, because I really, and I think, and also, I mean, you’re an artist, you know, but a lot of lay people just think that, you know, artists are kind of like, hard to find or something.

Matthew Dols 13:08
No, artists are not throw a stick.

Kacha Kastner 13:11
You know, they just did a thing, and where do we find them? And I’m like, oh, exactly. Like,

Matthew Dols 13:18
plenty of artists or artists are everywhere. Yeah, quality artists is a different story.

Kacha Kastner 13:23
But as I said, again, you know, you never know. I mean, there’s some artists that they start out really great, and then kind of fizzle off for whatever, whatever reason, different reasons. Exactly. Some begin in the beginning, you know, just don’t look like there may be doing very much and you’re absolutely, yeah. So as I said, it’s something you have to really sort of like follow over the long term. And you know, and when you’re in the business, I would also say go back to the economics, this is kind of like being a stockbroker, when you know stockbrokers know stocks and they watch stocks and they know in the background of the businesses, and they know all that so they know potentially who might be going up on my be going dead. It’s not like they just make that stuff up. You know, I’m in a good stockbroker really knows there.

Matthew Dols 14:04
So what what kind of work do you do? Like, do you have critics you listen to? Do you have

Kacha Kastner 14:10
other artists, other artists? I asked. I talked to all my other artists I’m and I asked them. Yeah, I talked to critics, I talked to curators, curators are a great source of information. Yeah, we, I mean, I, we talked about, yeah, we talked to a lot of people, I’m interested in people’s opinion, you know, and sometimes somebody brings an artist to my attention that I might necessarily have just walked by an exhibition, you know, and but because I know that person and because I respect their, you know, and they maybe have more information than I do, you know, they’re working on not just, you know, I might have just seen that one piece one time at one exhibition, and it didn’t impress me, and then I’ll talk to a curator, and the curator will say to me, oh, well, you know, they did really and they did this and they know the artists work better. And that and that because if I respect that curator, I respect that critic or that artists because they know and they know what I I like and I know, they’re sort of you know what that what they’re doing? So I might go back and then look at that artists that I might have walked by

Matthew Dols 15:07
potentially the two things that I’m hearing there or relationships are big, like you have to have strong relationships of understanding mutual respect and appreciation between yourself and other pvl. curators.

Kacha Kastner 15:20
Yeah, that’s right. No, I mean, yeah, relationships over that. Yeah. I mean, like, there might, there’s some people out there that don’t want to hear, you know, they know, you know, but as I said, I think it’s really kind of a learning process, and you want to spend integration possible. And I mean, it’s the same way that we would go to, if you want somebody to recommend your book, or a movie or something like that, if that person, you know, has the same, you know, some people might recommend your movie. No, no, I’m not. That’s the problem. And you know, but but you know, who’s gonna recommend a movie that you’re gonna like, right? Yeah.

Matthew Dols 15:52
So what you’re talking about, as far as I hear is a lot about, like, just building strong relationships with other people in the community.

Kacha Kastner 15:58
But I mean, but also, as I said, a lot of results of footwork. So I just go to I tried to, I used to do more. And now instead of afraid I do less, but I tried to go to I don’t wanna say every exhibition. I saw

Matthew Dols 16:11
you a few tour last week. I saw you out and about, yeah. A little surprising, because not a lot of other galleries go to other gallery openings? I

Kacha Kastner 16:21
think they do. I haven’t

Matthew Dols 16:23
noticed. Now, that’s not it’s not to say that. I mean, maybe I just don’t know them. I don’t know, but

Kacha Kastner 16:28
I think might maybe not go to the open. So

Matthew Dols 16:29
that’s quite possible. Because they may be busy at that time.

Kacha Kastner 16:33
Yeah, exactly. But I do try to go to a lot of exhibition. So now I’m in the opening, I go to the opening, because part of it is that, you know, I know if I got to make myself go to the opening, then I’ll see it if if you say oh, well, I’ll go next week. They’re busy. Yeah. So that’s one of the reasons go to the second thing, I also realize is obviously, I always run into somebody, they need to talk to them something about, you know, so there’s always, Oh, my gosh, yes, I just remotely, I wanted to you know, and so it’s obviously, you know, good for just running into people and then sort of remembering that you needed to talk with him about something.

Matthew Dols 17:07
So one thing that I’ve been wanting to bring up with you is about art fairs, you’re one of the only people that I have had available in Prague. Actually, it’s not true. But more recently, you’re one of the few people that I’ve been able to talk to about participating in art fairs. So like, what made you start to go there? Like, tell me more about art fairs as a whole? Like, why do you choose to do them? What do they do? Because I know you’re trying to get Czech artists into the international market, and it’s very appropriate. But why that art fair, because you seem to choose Basel

Kacha Kastner 17:38
in Basel is the mother of all art fairs. I mean, that’s, you know, the best and the biggest, I mean, that’s where everybody goes, that’s why we choose, you know, that’s sort of like, you know, the Cannes Film Festival of, you know, art fairs. So you want to be you know, that’s, that’s kind of where you want to be. You had the biggest audience, I don’t mean, I don’t even know how many Yeah, this other night, you know, 60,000 people attend Art Basel. So an audience like that, and obviously, you know, you’re not gonna meet and greet every single one of them, or, you know, make an impression 60,000 people, but it’s 60,000 of maybe the most influential people in the art world. So you get the curators and museum directors are collectors, the critics, the artists, I mean, you don’t really, as I said, everybody who has anything to do with the art market. So that’s why that’s why we choose Basel. But why we chose art fairs was because when we started the gallery, there was no market. And if there was a market, the market wasn’t interested in us. When we started the art fair, the market was very much collectors buying directly from artists from their studio. I mean, there was some galleries that were working, and they did have the new collectors and they had relationships and they were well respected. We didn’t we came from a community I came from a nonprofit background, I didn’t really know any collectors knew a lot of artists, but I didn’t know any collectors. And, you know, how do you if you’re sort of really outside of that complete circle? How do you break into that circle? And it’s, yeah, it’s not easy, especially when that circle is really small, doesn’t want you to be

Matthew Dols 19:14
very close.

Kacha Kastner 19:16
So as I said, when we started working, you know, the the collectors weren’t coming to us to check collectors weren’t coming to us. So in some ways, it was kind of part of it was also just survival. And we just said, Well, we need to, you know, get our gallery, we need our audience. We need, you know, to build our collector base and in also our audience, you know, even I mean, again, you know, just even the curators of curators are gonna come to us people from home are going to come to us, so we have to kind of go to them. I mean, I wouldn’t necessarily say like that, but you know, it’s also a it’s also related to, as I said, all the institutions, international institutions and the curious and the critics, you have to get you have to go out and meet them so they’re not going to come to you they know they don’t know we exist for style. And the best place to do that is is an art fair And this is because this is this is really kind of the platform for the art market now has been the art fairs for I mean, ever since we started the gallery certainly if not before, and most of the market sort of revolves around several large art fairs. It’s really costly. It’s really time consuming. A lot of people complain about it. A lot of, you know, a lot of galleries and we don’t do that many art fairs. But there’s some galleries. I don’t know. I mean, they will do practically an art fair month, you know, some of the big galleries. Yeah. And I just can’t even imagine, you know, instead of having to

Matthew Dols 20:38
have a full time employee, or more, doing just art fair, between the cost of it and the time consuming nature of and the shipping logistics,

Kacha Kastner 20:47
and you think, and people think it sounds so great, but you know, if you talk to a lot of gallery directors, Hong Kong has Esma that I go to Madrid, and then had to go, like, Oh, my God, I just want to stay home. Sure, yeah. So it’s really, but this is, this is kind of the reality where it is now. I mean, I would also say, even for some collectors, I think you don’t just also gets repetitive, because you know, every year, it starts to look the same in some ways. But in some on the other side of it, it is efficient. You know, it’s really, you’re there, you’re there one week, you just, you know, take it, you know, he meet people, everyone, it’s a conference, you know, it’s it’s a, it’s an important conference, and you sort of you need that, because otherwise I said, you know, sitting back in Prague and waiting for all these people to come through our gallery, it’s just not gonna happen, it certainly wasn’t gonna happen before people knew us. And then we had to go out and you know, get to know the people, as I said, and so I look at a lot of it also, it’s just PR, it’s really, in the advertising, right. And it’s the art fairs in the beginning, were super, super, super important for us. Basically, as I said, just finding, you know, collectors who would buy from us getting our artists name out there, because I said, Yes, sitting up and coming, it’s good, just doing one exhibition after the other for a very small circle of, you know, checks, artists and critics, you know, that’s not self sustainable. Getting our gallery known. So in the very beginning, you know, nobody really knew who we were, and nobody paid any attention to us, then you have to keep coming back and have to keep showing that you have interesting if you’re doing interesting things working with interesting artists, but it has to be super proactive thing and art versus that are really the best, best way to do it. You know, this, I said that there’s, there’s, you know, I said, there’s a lot of criticism around them. But I still I don’t think anyone’s come up with a better formula at this point.

Matthew Dols 22:37
Don’t look at me, I have no opinion, really, at the moment. I’ve, I’ve worked in them. I worked at a gallery, and we did one and it ended up just being a wash. Like literally like as far as financially. We sold enough work to cover all the costs, but that’s it.

Kacha Kastner 22:51
But I think, you know, for me is that I don’t really go I don’t see, I wouldn’t, I think I feel it’s a mistake to sort of say, okay, in one week, this is how much I sold, and how much it costs me. Because the as I said, it’s advertising and so it’s sort of like if you put an ad in art form, and then the ad ended at the end of the month and you said how much business did that bring me? You know, it’s an art you can’t really quantify it that way.

Matthew Dols 23:18
your your your bit different than a lot of galleries in the world you are I shouldn’t say that you’re a bit different than regionally allowed galleries at least because you think more about the law what I would call like the long game long con

Kacha Kastner 23:31
Yeah, you’re

Matthew Dols 23:31
you’re in it for the long haul and you’re worried you’re interested in building reputations as and building careers not only your artists, but even your yourself in your own reputation, your career and trying to get make it stronger and better and bigger. So that it basically you can do more with it. But yeah,

Kacha Kastner 23:49
I mean, I mean, it’s absolutely the long haul, you have to because and so I said so for so this is this is i said i think it’s a mistake to say that, that’s how much I sold. I mean, having said that, of course there’s the realities and a lot of young galleries starting out is that you only have so much money in the bank. And so you can empty out your bank account to pay for an art fair and then not come back and have money. You know, this is you know, they can’t afford to invest so much money upfront. And art, there’s a huge upfront investment, even if you make money. At that week, you’re paying all your costs six months, at least in advance, you

Matthew Dols 24:22
don’t have to pay a salary has to be closed while you’re away. Usually.

Kacha Kastner 24:27
So so it’s a huge upfront best investment. And I said for young galleries, I mean, even you know, even for us sometimes, you know one word sort of depending on what we’re doing depending on the art fairs, some art fairs are more expensive, you know, you have to sort of think okay, well can I afford, you know, spend a million crowns and maybe not you know, see it for you know, not get back

Matthew Dols 24:49
three years. Yeah,

Kacha Kastner 24:50
is that you know, it’s it’s like if a million crowns disappeared from our accounts, you know, with that, would we live you know, I mean with you know, and you never want to take the rest of it. Did that time it’s just gonna cost you and you lost all that money in it’s a gamble on that gamble. You don’t want to have to go to bankruptcy because, you know, so I mean, we would never do anything. So, you know, we would never gamble away the farm. Right? So

Matthew Dols 25:12
you’re not a risky investment in

Kacha Kastner 25:14
it? Well, I’m not a risk taker, not a real risk taker. Okay,

Matthew Dols 25:17
some people are more risky than others. So you’re, you’re, you seem like you’re very methodical, thoughtful and sort of controlled planner for the

Kacha Kastner 25:30
kind of kooky way. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 25:32
No, I haven’t seen you as you want. I don’t think it was cookie. But But you seem to you, you put a lot of good research and planning and thought and into like, all the different moves that you may like the choice to go to art fairs, choice of which art, you probably did lots of research talked a lot to be

Kacha Kastner 25:54
we think about it all the time. I mean, there’s just none something. But I mean, most galleries do, you’re always like, okay, does that make sense? Did we go here? Maybe one year? It makes sense. Maybe the next year? It doesn’t, you know,

Matthew Dols 26:03
is it something where? Because I’ve heard different things from different galleries? Like, do you choose a individual artists and just show one artist? What do you do a large group of artists will be

Kacha Kastner 26:14
started, I mean, the first, you know, I mean, really up to now I would say, we’ve done a lot of solo shows at art fairs. And I really love doing them. I really prefer doing them. I mean, part of it in the beginning was if you’re bringing artists that the international market doesn’t know, you, just to bring one piece by five artists doesn’t make any sense. Because there’s no context,

Matthew Dols 26:38
there’s not enough to understand. Exactly.

Kacha Kastner 26:41
So if you do a solo project, then all of a sudden, you’re doing a small exhibition, and there’s a lot of context and you can really introduce their practices. And you can see this this what they do, and people can see. You know, what the artist is working within the different sort of ways that it can manifest itself. And but also, quite frankly, you said to solo shows were cheaper.

Matthew Dols 27:01
Yeah, so there’s a difference. Yeah, so Okay, so you

Kacha Kastner 27:06
know, many fair many art fairs will. It’s but it’s also kind of competitive, but they have these like special sections, like freeze has focused Art Basel has statements. And these are specific sections that you apply just for the section. Okay, so

Matthew Dols 27:22
there’s the boons

Kacha Kastner 27:23
Yeah, the gallery section,

Matthew Dols 27:25
the gallery. Okay,

Kacha Kastner 27:26
that’s a gallery section.

Matthew Dols 27:27
And then there’s the statements. So yeah,

Kacha Kastner 27:29
there’s a statement or they call it focus. So they call it I don’t know, they all have different names. And, and these oftentimes, are for either younger artist, or historical position, or a curated section, you know, there are sort of like more focus in there. And they’re actually the art fairs are doing it, because art fairs are trying to bring more interesting presentations from a artistic presentation, curatorial, kind of, you know, not just like a garage sale, you know, they’re trying to, so in to do this, they tend to be riskier for the galleries, actually. Because if you’re bringing, you know, five pieces by five different artists, like, you know, maybe three of them will sell and, you know, maybe two won’t, but you know, you’re sort of spreading your risk among the artists. But if you’re just bringing one position, when artists with one project, it’s a little riskier, because nobody likes it, then nobody likes it, then you’re, you know, that you can’t be like, well, and how about this,

Matthew Dols 28:26
all your eggs are in one basket, literally

Kacha Kastner 28:28
all your eggs in one basket, so tends to be riskier, and so therefore, they discount the price, because it’s more interesting for the collectors to go into these really sort of special curated or, you know, position or solo shows, that it also can be very competitive. You know, something like art statements at Art Basel, I think there’s only 16 galleries chosen. And they’re different every single time when we 12 a camera, but it’s, it’s very, very competitive. Also, as I said, For us, it made more sense for this, you know, for these reasons, and that I said, it was more economical. It’s more interesting for us to give more context and introduced our gallery better to the scene. Now we’re kind of at a point where I really think we need to start doing gallery booth, yeah, booths. And, you know, I mean, I said, I and I, and for me, it’s just also I really just enjoyed in the solo ones. But I think, you know, it’s just for, I think it’s time for us to sort of take a step up and move up to the gallery. I mean, maybe not for every art fair, where it makes sense. And present, you know, more of our artists work and it’s also it’s, you know, I also realize that responsibility for the other artists that we represent is that we’re not just you know, doing solo shows of the artists who happened to be you know, big right now.

Matthew Dols 29:46
I’ve heard stories just you know, through the internet, whatever about galleries basically saying like, oh, we’ll take you to an art fair to an artist up but we ask you if you put in some money to participate in, is this the kind of thing you know, we don’t know. I was gonna say you seem like you would be the people who are investing all the time and money.

Kacha Kastner 30:03
Yeah, I mean, we pretty much invest all the time and the money, man, obviously, you know, a lot of artists invest in their own production, you know, I mean, there’s

Matthew Dols 30:10
no, I would never turn out gallery to invest in the production.

Kacha Kastner 30:13
Well, we’ve done that as well. But it depends, it depends on the project, when we’re doing these really special social solo projects we we oftentimes do. But no, we don’t, we would never ask the artist to give us you know, money to cover the stand or anything like that.

Matthew Dols 30:28
Along with that, so are you completely private? Because here in the Czech Republic, I’ve been hearing stories about funding from municipalities and support from different areas?

Kacha Kastner 30:38
I mean, we’re completely private in terms of we’re an SRS, we’re a private company completely private. Yeah. That’s a that’s a Yeah, we’re registered as a business Corporation. And we have to go back to I said, I think that’s important was to state because when we started the gallery, we thought that it was really important that it really was a private commercial gallery that was registered as a business because there was a tendency in Central and Eastern Europe to have sort of very blurry lines between run profit and profit.

Matthew Dols 31:11
And that’s sort of what I’m getting. Yeah.

Kacha Kastner 31:13
And so, you know, like, they’re registered as a nonprofits, they don’t have to pay taxes

Matthew Dols 31:18
is okay, that means here, yeah, don’t have to pay.

Kacha Kastner 31:21
Yeah, they don’t have to pay taxes. And but they’re doing commercial things. And it’s, as I said, and also And oftentimes, and this, and they say to that they can get grants. And so there’s this whole reason, so they can get grants. And I said, but it’s very Yeah, I mean, it’s just not transparent. And we, you know, there’s a lot of so much not transparent, it’s the central Eastern Europe, sort of, so and we feel like transparency is a really important thing, especially if people feel the art market in itself is very untransparent. So that we would sort of like, try, you know, we will make a commercial guy, it’s gonna be commercial, it’s gonna be private guy, we’re gonna do it like, you know, according to the rulebook, having said that, we also do apply and get grants. Oh, yeah, we’re

Matthew Dols 32:05
here in this region, like, it seems like, for profit, or whatever we want to call it businesses can apply for grants in this region, no, more than I’ve ever noticed anywhere else.

Kacha Kastner 32:14
So you know, it’s an, you know, I mean, we’re not hiding anything, but they know what we are, we, by applying for grant, we’re gonna, you know, put all our cards on the table on our books, so they know how much money we make, or how much you know, we don’t, and we tell them what we’re going to do with it. And we tell them, you know, what, I said, again, you know, we go and we can say, well, we’re going to go to this art fair, and this is what we’re going to show and this is how much it costs. We guess we’ll probably make this amount, you know, but and we need to be great, you know, we need help to, to cover what we estimate, which is really hard, obviously, to be the difference. And we have gotten grants. And I think because also I think there was also number one, I think there was appreciation that you know, if you’re upfront, and you say this is what I’m going to do, and it’s a really hard thing, and it’s but it’s really important, you know, to get checked galleries out there, the I mean, the the arching galleries are all covered at art fairs by the Austrian government, many, I mean, not all obviously, I don’t think that in the US they do pitching I mean, this is not something which is in any way unique in the art world. I think, number one, they appreciate it, you know, if you’re, if you’re upfront about it, then and people know, what they’re funding and why they’re funding it, and what’s the, then they will consider it. And the second thing, I also think there was actually a growing appreciation of how important it was. And I think nobody really knew nobody had been to an art fair, nobody had any idea what you know, what it was, like, why you should be there who came in, and nobody had cared in the past to find out and I said, but I think that was changing. And so people started to realize how important it is. And I always say, you know, I always use the example of is if I said Listen, if films, check films are heavily supported by the Czech government, there also, you know, you buy a ticket to go to the theater, everyone’s paid in the film, you know, this is not a not for profit, business. And if some Czech film got, you know, to con was accepted at Khan and was going to be, you know, shown on the center stage or whatever, wherever the cinema number one, you know, you know, the Czech government will be there funding everything every funding the trip, you know, paying for people to go or whatever, all the fees in the tent, and I don’t know what I’m sure you know, I’m sure it’s not free. But again, you know, this is like a money making deal because they got to come, they get a lot of, you know, contracts, they sign up, then the film, you know, gets advertising. So, you know, it’s but in this in many ways, the same thing. So if you’re, I’m not quite sure no, but um, that’s right themselves. So I try to, you know, show people that this is, you know, there’s not that much of a difference between you know, these things.

Matthew Dols 34:56
I mean, realistically, like you’re

Kacha Kastner 35:00
I think people started to realize that and I, I think before there was this idea is that your corporation means you make a lot of money. And you know, I mean, yeah, exactly, yeah. And lots of corporations

Matthew Dols 35:10
and there’s big money at all, much less a lot of them.

Kacha Kastner 35:13
Yeah. And that, you know, so I think there was just also and again, this goes back to the movies where you’re going to go off and you’re gonna go to bars, or you’re gonna go to wherever, and you’re going to take everything and it’s going to sell out in the first two hours, and then you’re just gonna sit back and kick up and you know, drink champagne all week long. And that’s also just in the movies. You know, that’s also that’s not the reality.

Matthew Dols 35:33
No, I, the I’ve been. I’ve been in the back parts of Abu Dhabi and Dubai for the past six years. And I mean, the people will sit there like and wait and wait and wait. And don’t be

Kacha Kastner 35:45
nervous, literally,

Matthew Dols 35:46
like the minute before they put it into the crate to ship it back before somebody will come out. I’m nervous. Well, okay, fine. I’ll buy it for this lower price. Exactly. Last minute. Yeah. And it’s an Iraq.

Kacha Kastner 35:58
So, but so I think there was, so we do we do get funding, and we’re, I mean, so grateful for it. We’re super grateful for it.

Matthew Dols 36:05
I think it’s great. Yeah, I do. I am anyway.

Kacha Kastner 36:09
So we are so we’re private, we’re fully private, but we do receive funding from the city of Prague, and from what culture, and I said this, and this is great thing, and, but it’s something that maybe like, you know, 10 years ago, wasn’t happening 10 years ago, when we started, exactly. It’s relatively new. When we started, we were trying to get money for the art fairs. And nobody would give it to us. We went to the Ministry of Culture, and went to the Prague city, and we said, Listen, this is what we really need the money for the art fairs. This is what we really because I said again, this is a huge, you know, investment that you have to do before. And if you don’t have money in your bank account, you know, how to the catch 22, you know, in a word, how do you start? And back then nobody wanted to do it. As I said, that was it had to change your cultural policy a little bit, but it has changed. And that’s a great thing. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 36:56
yeah. I mean, it’s an investment on their part to make you better, and then get more publicity. So basically, in the end, more people are going to come and participate in the tourism and the culture of this region, because you’re out there publicizing about the art proceeds. I mean, it’s a benefit. And

Kacha Kastner 37:11
what we also we found is a sort of amusing when we started to go out and they said, We went to the Minister of Culture, and so we really, you know, be great if we could get a grant to go to the art fair. And they said, Well, we don’t do that. So we went to the Ministry of Trade, because they said, Oh, well, that’s a trade fair. And we went, Okay, so we went to Ministry of Trade, which funds trade fairs. Yeah. And we said, Listen, we want to go to China, we really would like to have funding where, you know, check product. And they said, Oh, no, I’m sorry, your culture, we don’t do that you have to get the Minister of Culture. So that we’ve done that kind of amusing in that again, you know, the Minister of Trade was funding all this private business, you know, the tourism industry, the check wine industry, check glass, interesting, all these industries to go and go to these trades. And as usual, unfortunately, culture and arts kind of falls through the cracks.

Matthew Dols 38:02
not uncommon, unfortunately.

Kacha Kastner 38:05
But that’s changed. I said, so that’s that’s a good thing. Well,

Matthew Dols 38:07
it sounds like it’s getting better, at least Absolutely. Yeah. It seems like from all the stories I’m hearing about the way things were everything I keep hearing is positive, positive, positive. I don’t really hear stories of, well, this is getting worse. I hear about the buyers becoming more educated, the artists getting stronger, the international markets showing more interest like me, everything seems positive.

Kacha Kastner 38:31
I mean, I think probably maybe I don’t want to say that artists are getting stronger. I’m not sure. Yeah, I don’t you know, I mean, I don’t, I don’t really know that it could weigh in one way or other than that, but what I would say is I do remember, French scholar coming up to me recently this year at some opening. And he said, you know, you guys are doing such a great job with and it was particular thing, we just come back from Hong Kong. I said, she’s doing such a great job with anahola. You know, I really just, you know, I really, I really admire you. And he goes, You know, I think I don’t know if you remember but I think I don’t know which Venice Biennale but very shortly after 1989, the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia was Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia, the time a French scholar was one of the first Czech artists to be in the Czech pavilion, or the one I remember. And he did a project where he walked to Vienna and did this book and what it was in the end, he said, You know, when I was in Venice Biennale, Allah, and he goes, and there was our it was, he goes, it was so confusing for me. And he goes, you know, at the in Venice, there were all these people around me, and everything looked like it was gonna be so great. And there was look like there’s gonna be all this promise that my career was going to take off. And he goes, and then I went back to the Czech Republic, and he goes, and I sat there, and it was I kind of waited for the phone to ring and it didn’t. And he goes, you know, and I look back now and he goes, you know, fate had a gallery or something. He Because, you know, I have a feeling that, you know, somebody would have helped me navigate this whole sort of experience. And he wasn’t, you know, I mean, he wasn’t salary wasn’t bitter, and I don’t think anyone’s gonna say the apprenticeship scholar has had unhappy, you know, career or what have you. And, you know, he’s very well known and everything. But for me, that was really that he said that in he wasn’t jealous, or he didn’t want, you know, anything from me, you know, I’m sort of post, you know, retro actively to go back and make up for that. But, for me, I thought that was, you know, that I really took that is huge, huge, huge compliment, that, you know, he recognize that, yeah, that, you know, this, there were good artists back then. But without having, you know, galleries, they actually a lot of them again, kind of fell through the cracks. So, you know, maybe, yeah, as I said, maybe lost opportunities

Matthew Dols 41:00
throughout the world, they’re always for various reasons. This one just happened to be political. Yeah. That didn’t last horribly, too long.

Kacha Kastner 41:08
Yeah.

Matthew Dols 41:09
What do you see the very near future? What are you what’s, what’s the gallery going to be growing

Kacha Kastner 41:13
into? We’re just gonna keep growing. Just kind of, you know, more and

Matthew Dols 41:20
more partnerships more and more like large different spaces, multiple spaces?

Kacha Kastner 41:26
No, I mean, we’ve already you know, this is already our second space. So we were in kaminska. Before we had a much smaller space, we moved to I want to say about seven years ago. Now. This is our second space, we’ve already expanded here. So we opened two years, three years ago, project room upstairs, that we do two to three exhibitions here. This office that you’re sitting in right here, this is new way did this this year, she’s lovely. And so we’re really, you know, I’m not looking for more necessarily square meters to exhibit things, because that’s, you know, this work and, you know,

Matthew Dols 42:01
so you’re still really know, the name of the gallery is handcast. And so you’re partnered with Camille hunt, Camille Han, and you all are sort of like, it’s it’s, is it a? Is it a 5050 partnership? Or is it one of you does one thing really, really well? And one doesn’t know exactly. Each

Kacha Kastner 42:19
of us have our own was exactly on things that we do well, and it’s not super definable. It’s not like, you know, it also depends, you know, it’s great. What’s great about having a partner, and I feel sorry, for the other galleries who are on their own is that, you know, when you do go away for two weeks vacation, you know, that somebody is going to be sitting here and can take care of it. I mean, basically, Camille, and I, you know, we can switch in and opt in for each each, you know, we know every bit of the business, you know, when we’re both, so if I’m not here, you know, she can do everything, and vice versa. But it’s very nice.

Matthew Dols 42:53
A lot of businesses don’t have that.

Kacha Kastner 42:55
Yeah. So anyway, I said, you know, and that’s just a lifesaver. Obviously, there’s always, you know, where I said, it’s always a very good thing, and sometimes it were different. Because, yeah, you know, so we, each of us have our own set of like, things that we’re better at doing or enjoy more, more suited to,

Matthew Dols 43:11
when it comes to the business of the art. Yeah, so more sort of the selling and all this kind of stuff. One of the big questions I’ve been there, like, keep coming up with conversations is the internet. Is it? Does it work for you? Does it actually create sales? Or is it more of a just sort of a public relations, things that then brings people in what I

Kacha Kastner 43:31
mean, I think, I mean, think about the internet, first of all, this, you know, it’s just made it he’s communications, I mean, it’s just about communicating. Imagine, you know, yeah, the fact you know, when part of it is a problem, because, you know, like, you notice, you wake up in the morning, and you try to computer and you see 50 emails coming down?

Matthew Dols 43:44
Well, I don’t but maybe,

Kacha Kastner 43:46
and then, you know, that’s all people want things done, you know, so But, but it has just Facilitated Communication across the world. So again, you know, we can deal with all these collectors, and, you know, we met in Hong Kong, it doesn’t matter anymore, you know, that we’re sitting here. So we have this, you know, it’s it’s opened up this whole communication with around the world. The other thing is, obviously, you know, having documentation on your website is people who can just like click in and figure out who you are, who you’re working with. So there’s, you know, your full resume sort of there on the website for people to to refer to, and I would say, to some extent, we don’t really, I don’t believe in selling from the internet. I’m not a you know, I know that this is like this, maybe where you’re going because a lot of people are sort of interested if this is going to be the new future. If this is what we’re gonna do, it’s gonna be Yeah, selling from the internet, putting things up and

Matthew Dols 44:41
even just putting prices on the internet, like I know a lot of galleries. I believe you’re one of them that does not put prices on the internet.

Kacha Kastner 44:47
Yeah, and we don’t and actually, all the works is just here in our web pages documentation, it doesn’t mean that it’s for sale. Because again, what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to have the you know, we want people to click on it and to be able to see Daniel pitching and see what he does not what’s for sale. And then if they like what he does, and they might be interested in buying something, but it’s really important for us to show the documentation moreso than absolute works. So I do have a problem. I don’t have a problem, I don’t think that that’s, you can buy art, certainly like the art that we’re showing, I want to say because it’s not if it’s about aesthetics, it’s just about what you want to know that maybe it’s gonna look good hanging in your living room, I think you can buy it on the internet. And I’m not saying that that’s a bad thing to do. I would look down on somebody like that, or that that’s, that’s just a completely different thing than we do.

Matthew Dols 45:43
Right? Well, I mean, I was in San Francisco around the.com, sort of boom, and all that kind of stuff. And so there were websites after website saying, like, Oh, you can buy Art Online now. And they’ve all now sort of petered out. They all sort of ended, I don’t think any of them are still going strong. So it sort of anything out there was the idea of it. And it seemed to have failed until like, now it How is it going to recreate itself? Is it going to do it differently? isn’t going to happen that way? I mean, your work is a bit different. Your your work is? When I think of you I think of the that book, The $12 million? stuffed shark? Oh, my God, have you heard about this? Yeah,

Kacha Kastner 46:22
of course I have. But I don’t know

Matthew Dols 46:25
what well, no? Well, because when I think of your gallery, I think that you all are the sort of gallery that prides itself on getting its artists into certain exhibitions, and certain museums and certain collections and things like this, and that sort of your, as a gallery, your focus is to to build their careers by getting the the artists into these places in the way that was described in that book

Kacha Kastner 46:48
window. And yeah, I mean, we’re not, you know, help sales, you know, so it’s not okay, again, I don’t want to say, you know, our aim is to do that and not to sell, of course, our aim is to sell, but we just feel like the selling, we want to not to beat anyone at anytime, at any cost. And the best way to sell is to build the career of the artist, you know, so there, you know, it’s not that we’re against sales, you know, I’ve had people come up and say, Oh, it’s really, really great. You’re not really interested in sales? And I say, Well, you know, let’s, in all fairness, we are interested in that, you know, and I mean it because it might, you know, we will say sometimes, for instance, when I will say when we have an exhibition here in the gallery in Prague, I’ll say, listen, it’s not about you know, I’m not going to choose a word because one that’s going to sell well, and people go, Oh, that’s really great. You’re not interested in sales? Let’s see, it’s not about that. It’s just that, you know, the reality is, we’re probably not going to sell from the exhibition anyway. No sense hitting myself over the head trying to, instead I’d rather put on a really great exhibition, I’m really going to like that, again, it’s going to, like you said, build these relationships, and you know, and experiences and that people are going to remember seeing, then try to just put things on my wall that I think people are going to sell that they buy that they probably aren’t going to anyway, because the market here just isn’t strong enough,

Matthew Dols 48:09
which was the next question. I was just about to ask your percentage of sales? How many are local? Like, how many? How often do you sell out of the gallery? or How much do you sell sort of, from international buyers, whether it’s from art fairs, or however else

Kacha Kastner 48:23
and then and this is where you go back maybe a little bit to the internet is that so so we go to what can often happen. As I said, we’ll have a really great exhibition, somebody will come in, they’re not maybe they’ll just like the exhibition, a collector or a curator or a critic, they’ll tell someone, it’s about us. And somebody you know, we’ll go back home, wherever it is. So tell somebody about us. And somebody will then write us an email, and they say, Oh, I heard some vintage ago. And they were like, can you I this artist I saw her in some exhibition? And can you send me her portfolio and tell me what work you have available. And we may sell something from that. Sure. And that happens also at the Art Fair. So maybe we’re showing artists a collector comes in are interested in artist a necessarily but they’re interested artists and B they see we also work with artists B. Again, they’ll write us maybe, you know, a week later, maybe six months later, maybe a year later, maybe they’ll come visit Prague and they’ll just stop by and they will buy something from artists B from us who might we might not be exhibiting but we happen to have in our storage and our depository or as we call it in our world in our inventory. So I’m going to go back and said internet so obviously the internet helps us because you know we do a tight you know we send out a PDF portfolios of available work and we do sell work from that. But these collectors I would also say say generally, again, it’s not the art business and people don’t walk in off the street. And generally I’m saying we have sold from exhibition artists. The collector didn’t know before and they sell for the first time in the exhibition but the realities collectors, big collectors, serious collectors also do their homework. So they know who they want to buy before they do. And when they go to the art fairs, they do their homework. And they already know when they walk into oftentimes they walk into the art fair that know exactly which go they’re going to and which artists are interested in.

Matthew Dols 50:20
Sure, actually. And I have another question because we’re in this lovely new room with this beautiful custom made bookcase that you all can’t see. But just believe me on that, you will produce catalogs and books even still today with all of your exhibitions and your artists. And I’ve been noticing this a lot more recently in the past, I’d say like five years or so that sort of physical catalogs and books are sort of almost coming back into style. Like,

Kacha Kastner 50:46
I don’t know that. We don’t produce your callings, we don’t actually, I know we have a lot here. We help finance. But we don’t really produce exhibition catalogs. As a matter of fact, I think that was kind of something more 90s. And part of it is, is that, you know, there’s a lot of work, first of all, but secondly, jelly, most of all these catalogs that you see they were produced by an institution for the artists, and then maybe we helped you not find them, you know, or we bought them or something like that. But it’s more important that you don’t mean anyone, I don’t want to say anyone can pay to have a catalog made. That’s true. You know,

Matthew Dols 51:25
anybody with money can have a catalog of their art man.

Kacha Kastner 51:27
Exactly. But it’s more important, you know, if the institution is willing to give the artists an exhibition and with that a catalogue. So it has more meaning there’s like more, it’s, I guess, there’s more sort of meaning more gravitas. As

Matthew Dols 51:43
an institution, there’s

Kacha Kastner 51:44
a very large gravitas. Sometimes we also said, you know, some of these some of these books that you see here are also I would call more maybe not even executed. They’re like more like artists books. I love artists. Yeah. So it was artists project, you know, so that was it. That’s also and that’s something again, you know, it’d be published by someone else might help find the publisher. But and we might help fund it to a certain extent, but you know, it’s a it’s a kind of artists projects, that artists book, it’s not exhibition Kela, just to have an exhibition catalog, I think, you know, it’s great thing also about digital images are just fine. You know, you don’t need and, you know, there’s too much. I mean, I love books, you know, and that’s why I also wanted to have a huge

Matthew Dols 52:26
bookshelf with

Kacha Kastner 52:27
exactly your film. But I do also think that there’s a lot of, you know, I feel really badly we get a lot of exhibition catalogs from other artists or artists kelex. And, you know, and I end up giving them away, I end up giving we give them to, to schools, like some student, you know, curatorial studies, because we don’t we don’t have a place to put them all, you know.

Matthew Dols 52:48
Alright, so your general position at this point would be printed catalogs that are self published, let’s say, Yeah, not very, not not worthwhile. You

Kacha Kastner 52:58
know, it’s not Yeah, we know not a good

Matthew Dols 53:00
use of your money and your time and your effort. I don’t think. So. If an institution or something like this is backing it much more worthwhile? Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s a good to know, as far as the future of the arts market, do what do you have any sort of a prognosticator?

Kacha Kastner 53:21
No idea. I mean, I don’t think it’s going to drastically change one way or the other.

Matthew Dols 53:26
I’m always interested because like some some people to have an opinion, they leave, they know where it’s going. Because like, I’ve been talking to a lot of different people like from from residencies, to like, whatever, you know, like sort of commercial galleries that just sort of produce and sell and produce and sell and they’re all about the sales. And then, and then there’s yours, which is more you’re very conceptual, and you’re very much about, again, the long plan of of the the investment over time of building reputations. So the question is sort of like, what, what’s the what’s the next art movement that you think is sort of coming along?

Kacha Kastner 53:58
might mean, you don’t know when to see until some trace? hindsight. But I mean, I think what has changed is in over the time that we’ve had the galleries when we started the gallery in 2006. And earlier, Czech Republic had a very, very strong post conceptual, bent, and you had all the artists who were coming out, we’re sort of like I said it working conceptually. And over the say, you know, I’d say the past six years or something, the artists who coming out of the Academy, there’s actually now much more working with a more formalistic sort of material based even even figurative as I said, you know, yeah, and who LACERA who’s just doing privacy sculpture. We started working with it on a five years ago. She was one of young generation of artists that was returning to figurative sculpture. And it’s a she was probably the first at the Academy of Fine Arts and she got a lot of backlash about it because people settled in and nobody was nobody in the 90s nobody was doing figurative sculpture. is doing installation work. But now you’re seeing more more and more of this. So I mean, this is kind of I would say trends, you know, people, I mean, you sit across the world, you know, going back to textiles and glass, and, you know, all these sort of like, so the material is becoming really sort of important. So this is something I think that’s happening. If some a something else is sort of like on the horizon. I haven’t, I don’t know, I can’t necessarily say that, you know, it’s jumped out at me sort of an obvious thing.

Matthew Dols 55:26
So you’re not worrying about you as a gallerist. Don’t sit there go like, oh, gosh, what are the next trends gonna be? We need to be sure to have something to fit that or no, no, you don’t work that way.

Kacha Kastner 55:36
I mean, that considers me it’s more, like I said, again, it’s just like, if the artist is doing some really good, interesting work. I mean, obviously, you know, if it’s something a little new, you know, and fresh. And I mean, you’re looking for that sort of like freshness, but you’re also looking for the quality. And I tend to find that a does, yeah, cuz I would say no, halacha reformation really was one of the first artists that she had just kind of like, the courage to sort of, like, continue into it. She was doing, even with a little bit of the criticism, which was impressive, you know, art, it was impressive. But but at the same time, like, you know, she also did have some really strong backers. And I would say like, for instance, I do remember, usually commander telling me that he thought she was like, super talented. So she had people, you know, supporting her for what she was doing.

Matthew Dols 56:20
And this relationship of school to mentor to, I call it a mentor apprentice relationship. I’m also like, it’s very common, where people here study under like so. And that name is very important of who people study under, like, I tried to teach here. And when I got hired, they said, Oh, well, who did you study under? And I was like, I was in the United States, I studied under a dozen different professors like I didn’t have a mentor. But here that’s very important.

Kacha Kastner 56:50
Well, I think in the art world, it is as usual, I would just even say like it wouldn’t we just closed the show for Nina Beier and john Miller. And so john Miller is an American artist. And, you know, often you say, Well, he studied under Baldessari, you know, because that’s sort of interest, I

Matthew Dols 57:03
would be if I started, I would be telling everybody. But that’s, that’s, to me. That’s one of those names that like, but

Kacha Kastner 57:11
but it also I think, in some ways, because then it kind of defines you. He’s from the L, you know, he comes through the California School of artists, you know, so that kind of like, puts him in, like a definition. And that’s what it does here, too. So I asked students all the time, when I say, Where are you studying? The second problem, I said, with her, they can change a lot, you know, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re, you know, that they might jump around from Studio from one studio.

Matthew Dols 57:34
That’s what I’ve heard, I’ve heard that they didn’t say like two or three or four different different people over the course of their studies. And then sort of by the end of it, they sort of figure out who they basically learn most from Kind of, yeah,

Kacha Kastner 57:46
but or where they belong. But, but it is interesting. Yeah, it’s kind of an important, you know, sort of,

Matthew Dols 57:51
I should, I should go back to my own education, to try and figure out who was my biggest influence? I don’t know.

Kacha Kastner 57:56
I mean, it’s obviously but it’s, you’re quite right. It’s also a different structure here that you in Italy, you have one professor, then you might move that Telly and then you’ll have another one. But it’s not that you have five, you know, you know, five classes and each class a different professor,

Matthew Dols 58:12
I did know, one semester.

Kacha Kastner 58:14
Now I know that but I mean, you know what I’m saying in the US, you had five, you might be over a year period, you might be sitting with five different professors. Here, you’re just a year period, I

Matthew Dols 58:25
study with 10 different exams.

Kacha Kastner 58:26
But something that’s different here, you’re just in one atelier, you might jump from that, tell us what you’re going to when you’re in that I tell you, that’s who you’re with

Matthew Dols 58:35
me, it’s just different. You have very different studio teaching academia kind of structure. I

Kacha Kastner 58:42
do. I do ask, I mean, it’s not like necessary, you know, I’m curious, you know, and sometimes it’s obvious and, you know, and they put it on your resume. They do. Yeah,

Matthew Dols 58:51
there’s the M G, our manager. Yeah.

Kacha Kastner 58:54
What does that mean? That’s what you know, the educational system here, the Art Academy is six years. And you and and so you basically graduate with a Master’s?

Matthew Dols 59:04
So MGR means masters

Kacha Kastner 59:06
means managers. I don’t know what that were.

Matthew Dols 59:09
Because when they asked me They said, Oh, what do you want your name out? I was just like, Matthew Dols Fa? I don’t know. I didn’t I didn’t know there was such a thing as but I mean, to me, the only people that put something like that before or after the name are doctors. Is there somebody with a PMA

Kacha Kastner 59:24
that’s also they like to do that here even outside of the art world everybody’s engineer or manager I don’t know what you know, but um, but here yet six years? You say six years. Okay. So you’re basically you know, it’s like in the US you would say four years in two years a master so the art academy you’re basically getting you know,

Matthew Dols 59:39
and that gives them a MGR

Kacha Kastner 59:41
I don’t know if it’s a MGR I think it’s a ma What’s with it’s probably something else.

Matthew Dols 59:48
I don’t know this. This place I’m still learning all this. Yeah,

Kacha Kastner 59:52
that’s a mother there but like study at the technical university or something and they only give out MGR. So I don’t know. It’s a manager. Okay, I’m sorry, I’m not up on my akademia that much.

Matthew Dols 1:00:03
You’re not in the academic image. I’m not here either. Alright, so last two little questions that I asked every guest. you’re prepared for these. I believe I talked to one of them. I remember Yeah. Okay. We’ll do the easy one first. So if you were to give any sort of recommendation from your own experiences, some some anecdotes on advice, either through success or failure to help somebody so for your kids like to help a gallery be more successful in the arts industry, what would be your advice to them?

Kacha Kastner 1:00:35
Well, I mean, I think to think you just need to really work hard. I mean, I just think it’s a really, if you want to be successful, you just have to be prepared to really work hard. And no, I mean, I think

Matthew Dols 1:00:49
is it work hard? Or like work? Long, long hours? Because it’s fun, physically demanding work?

Kacha Kastner 1:00:56
Are you kidding me? Oh, my god, it can be super physically. I mean, I can’t even tell you. I mean, we don’t go into stories.

Matthew Dols 1:01:06
podcasts are all about tell us a story.

Kacha Kastner 1:01:09
I mean, I remember one day, when we were in Miami one year, and we had this heat. I mean, Kevin, I, you know, in the beginning, we did all we did everything, everything. It was DIY, all the way down the line. And we ship this huge crate to Miami full of artwork. And then when we were packing the artwork up at the end of the fair, I mean, I the worst thing to get it all back into the crate in the right way that it came out. And we didn’t have a and then we were putting on the top of it. And we didn’t have an electric screwdriver. We didn’t have a drill. And we were putting this crate top of the crate back on with a handheld screwdriver. And I mean, we couldn’t get the holes to line up. And there’s a really long

Matthew Dols 1:01:55
screws,

Kacha Kastner 1:01:56
and there’s really long schools and we basically by hand, drilling a hole, you know, screws back in, oh my god. The next morning, we woke up every bone in our body was just so so. And we were the last ones at the fair, they’d already turned the air conditioning long off. So we were sweating like pigs, they were turning the lights off. They were dismantling all the walls. And we were sitting there and just going, Oh my god, we’ve got to get ourselves an electric screwdriver. Never going to favor that.

Matthew Dols 1:02:27
It was just the simple things

Kacha Kastner 1:02:28
now. And then another time I’m read our buzet statements we did ever cut you out to go do this huge installation. It was so much work. And we I mean, we were we were working 12 hours a day to put it up. And Dominic Lang was there helping us it was able to dataco Dominic there. I mean, dominate, you know, so fabulous too. And he was doing tell us that we were painting these long wooden laughs and it was probably about 11 o’clock at night. And can we sat down, she’s kind of went on strike. And I said I’m not doing anything more. Because that’s it, I’ve painted my last laugh. And then there’s this at art statements I have this prize for like the best booth is called the balewa surprise. My fucking better when the bow was priced, that’s all I can say. We didn’t, we didn’t win the I’m sorry. I just, I just loved it. It was

Matthew Dols 1:03:28
good to hear. A lot of people say that the arts world is very glamorous, these kinds of things, but like, it’s not Oh my god.

Kacha Kastner 1:03:37
It was I mean, it was just, you know, so certainly, you know, I can’t tell you the art fairs, the installation, the de installation, the packing, and the whole thing is super physical, you know, super, super physical. And also, the other thing I would say, you know, learn how to use power tools, you know, totally learn how to use power tools. A lot of times gallerists are actually you know, really erecting the art, you know, I mean, constructing it based on you know, I’ve seen people putting together you know, huge installations and you know,

Matthew Dols 1:04:09
I’m a huge fan of the laser levels, those things are amazing.

Kacha Kastner 1:04:13
I mean, that’s easy peasy compared to some of the stuff we’ve done.

Matthew Dols 1:04:15
But they’re so put that makes life so easy. Like I grew up with like a bubble level thing you hold on the wall, like I mean, I remember when laser levels came out they were super expensive and they were like luxuries only museums had them you know, now they’re super affordable. And it’s like, it makes life so much easier.

Kacha Kastner 1:04:33
But sort of go back to that it’s like said we put on really sort of like major EDA for 10 days at an art fair. We put up a huge we’d work two days like nonstop to put up something. Yeah. And I said, Yeah, it’s it’s super fun. I mean, like, if you have the money, of course, you can hire someone to do that. But in the beginning, you’re not going to have the money. So, um, you know, most likely and so you have to be you know, you have to be if you want to I think, you know, I mean I think for us that was we were really interested in Putting on a really high quality you know, like they’re not gonna take you out art statements if you’re just in too late.

Matthew Dols 1:05:05
Well, I feel like a lot of people from the outside of the art world thinks that the art world is just parties and glamour and sitting around smoking cigarettes thinking about things and like, that’s all we do. They don’t know the the Blood Sweat tears, the the sleepless nights of like, Oh my gosh, is this gonna work? Oh my gosh, we’re gonna have the budget for this. Oh my gosh, is this crate going to arrive safely, you know, at its destination? What?

Kacha Kastner 1:05:28
We spent a lot of time she knows at six o’clock in the morning taking transport sending stuff. I mean, you know, it’s not people think also, you know, our our gallery, I would say from one to six, since everybody just thinks, you know, we just sort of stroll on in

Matthew Dols 1:05:40
earnings hours is lovely.

Kacha Kastner 1:05:42
I know. And that you know that all morning long. We just Are you know, I don’t know what

Matthew Dols 1:05:46
you know, sipping coffee, relax. I

Kacha Kastner 1:05:48
know. Exactly. So I think you know, so is for me anyway, it’s really I just feel like hard work pays off. I’m not saying they work. 24. Seven. But I mean, I really do think that Yeah, some people might think that the art world is you, oh, it’s a lovely job, you start at one and you know, and then you’d leave at six. And that’s it. But I said when you’re doing an exhibition, or you’re doing an art fair, something like that, you’re working, as I said, You’re working 12 hours a day, and you’re working, you know, of two weeks sort of non stop. And that that’s kind of what what you have to do. And it’s certainly in the beginning, as I said, so. Yeah, learn how to use power tools, and you know, be ready to, to, you know, DIY it all the way down the road. Yeah.

Matthew Dols 1:06:31
Even if you can’t afford it, you might as well save the money. Right?

Kacha Kastner 1:06:34
Well, I don’t know if you could afford. You can afford it. Yeah. Okay.

Matthew Dols 1:06:40
That’s fair. All right. And my last question, why I put my sort of fun question is, is that part of the the idea of the podcast is that I’m going to be following the process of doing myself where I will be trying to get a piece of my artwork into the Museum of Modern Art in New York. And so I’m asking every guest to give me a a step in the process, like, what is something you would say that I should do to try to get my work one piece, not a whole thing, like just one piece of my artwork on exhibition in the Museum of Modern Art in New York. And I’m going to do whatever you tell me to do. And then I’m going to put that into the pile. And we keep people updated on the successes and failures of all the advice that I get.

Kacha Kastner 1:07:23
Yeah, I just don’t know that. That’s a question that I can answer.

Matthew Dols 1:07:27
A theory and idea, it doesn’t doesn’t have to be like a fact,

Kacha Kastner 1:07:32
get one of the curators of the Museum of Modern Art to come to studio visit with you.

Matthew Dols 1:07:40
All right. I’m not sure how I can get them to Prague, but okay,

Kacha Kastner 1:07:43
I didn’t say it was gonna.

Matthew Dols 1:07:46
It’s about I mean, I’ll put it, I’ll put it on my list of things, and I will do my best to achieve that goal. Because that is now your advice to me, and I will do my best to accomplish that. You don’t know how,

Kacha Kastner 1:07:58
I don’t know if it’s my advice to you. Because again, I you know, you know, when we have to go back five steps how you’re going to get? Yeah, so but you’ve started with a very tall How do I do this? Yeah. Well, the

Matthew Dols 1:08:13
idea of the podcast that I’m trying to do here is basically like, no one person maybe then

Kacha Kastner 1:08:19
maybe the next question you need to ask someone is, how do I get a curator from MoMA to come to a studio visit with me? That’s your question for the next person, then you need to work your way through the whole, you know?

Matthew Dols 1:08:31
Yes. Well, yeah,

Kacha Kastner 1:08:32
that’s what I would suggest. So now you’ve got one suggestion, but I’ve taken you I’ve already got six others.

Matthew Dols 1:08:39
Seven suggestions right here, the eighth person I’ve interviewed or talked to, so I’ve got lots of suggestion. Okay. And I have to do because I have now put it in recording that I will do these things, even though one of them told me to be arrested. So not going to do that.

Kacha Kastner 1:08:54
Yeah, I don’t think that’s gonna make a difference. A lot of people arrested every day.

Matthew Dols 1:08:58
Like back in the 80s. That might have worked 70s. But I don’t think I mean, not, I don’t know

Kacha Kastner 1:09:03
the curator.

Matthew Dols 1:09:05
Yeah, unless the curator reads the newspaper of wherever you get

Kacha Kastner 1:09:09
to be a curator Who cares? And I don’t know, you know, I mean, a year now and again, I’m bad. I could be wrong.

Matthew Dols 1:09:16
We all could be we all can be wrong.

Kacha Kastner 1:09:18
Exactly.

Matthew Dols 1:09:20
And I love that as an ending. Lovely, thank you. Thank you very much for your time.

 

 

The Wise Fool is produced by Fifty14. I am your host Matthew Dols – www.matthewdols.com

All information is available in the show notes or on our website www.wisefoolpod.com